# Waterproofing



## Ed4x4 (Nov 24, 2009)

Alright, I've got a question for you tile guys. Its about waterproofing showers, not so much how to, but when to.

I recieved a call from a local builder looking for a new tile guy. I unfortunately had to turn him down because I dont feel capable of handling an entire house. Floor tiles I can confidently do, showers and the like still have me nervous. Im attending a class beginning of the year, hopefully from there and completing a bathroom for my parents, I can begin doing public jobs.

Anyways, I explained to him my reasoning, and he appreciated the honesty, but I took the chance to ask him a few questions. I was asking him about shower prep, and he asked what prep? His old tile guys simply put the tile straight onto the backerboard.

From all the reading I've done so far, the *correct* way to do a shower is by installing kerdi or redguard. Which is preferred? Cons? Pros? The *cheap* way is obviously doing nothing, just installing the tile. My question, or concern, is along the lines of warranty. I guaruntee all my carpet and wood floor jobs for a year. So far so good. I worry about guaranting tile jobs without properly waterproofing. I wouldnt mind if it was waterproofed because I feel more confident in the lifespan of the job. And since most builders prefer quantity over quality, and I cant turn away ever job because they dont want to waterproof, how do I handle warranty work?



And while I have you, when you go into a new construction job, is the concrete board already installed, or do you do that along with the tile?


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

Kerdi, Redguard, blah, blah, blah..... it doesn't matter as long as you do it right

I personally like Kerdi & I hardly use cement backer board 

As for is it already installed - ASK!!! Every GC is diffrent, you can always quote the price without as long as you have a line item right below it for install price

Also, some GC's provide all materials, some just the tile & grout, others nada - ASK

Good luck & you might want to see if you can find a Schluter Show & Tell around you


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

Ed4x4 said:


> Alright, I've got a question for you tile guys. Its about waterproofing showers, not so much how to, but when to.
> 
> I recieved a call from a local builder looking for a new tile guy. I unfortunately had to turn him down because I dont feel capable of handling an entire house. Floor tiles I can confidently do, showers and the like still have me nervous. Im attending a class beginning of the year, hopefully from there and completing a bathroom for my parents, I can begin doing public jobs.
> 
> ...


Never say no, you should have got the job then figured out how to do it even if you had to sub part of it out.

Now you may never get work from that builder because he thinks you don't know what your doing.

You can always find someone to help and you have to start somewhere.

And if it truly a builder who wants quantity over quality that is where you should be cutting your teeth (_unfortunate but true_).

In this economy there has to be another tile guy you could have hooked up with, win win situation; don't pass the next one up.

And no the backer board is not done for you.

It sounds like you do carpet and hardwood already get yourself a tile guy and be able to do all the flooring.

You won't be able to do it all by yourself effectively anyway.


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## Ed4x4 (Nov 24, 2009)

SLSTech, thanks for the info.

bconley, I dont regret passing the tile job. I did get the carpet from this builder, so I reckon I can get tile jobs from him later on. Im not willing to risk my reputation for one job. I'll wait until Im ready. I appreciate the advise though. 

Do you guys install tile without the kerdi/redguard/whatever often?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Ed4x4 said:


> Do you guys install tile without the kerdi/redguard/whatever often?


Never ever ever ever ever ever.

Not only do we use Kerdi in ALL wet locations, but we also use DensArmor and no paper in the entire bathroom. An appropriately sized exhaust fan is a must also.


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

I'll still use a vapor barrier on studs with cement board in a regular tub surround. Kerdi would be a nice upsell, but I feel it's not an absolute requirement. If there's a niche cut into the wall, I'll redgard the entire area around it. 
My showers are always built with Kerdi and the Kerdi drain.


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## djcg (Dec 31, 2009)

Kerdi is so messy and time consuming. Find a distributer that sells WEDI board. It's an extruded polystyrene waterproof board that gets screwed to the studs with screws and washers supplied by WEDI. Once the boards are all installed you'll use a waterproofing sealant(also supplied by WEDI) to seal all the joints, corners and screws. So much faster and time efficient. Prices the same as cement board and kerdi membrane. 

On a side note, I will still use the Schluter shower tray since my tile store doesn't carry the Wedi trays and they say are more expensive.


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## djcg (Dec 31, 2009)

also, Kudos to you angus for using DensArmor! I love that stuff. I use it for ALL my drywall needs, not just bathrooms. The key is in the primer. just make sure you use a primer that has 40% solids by volume and you're set.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

djcg said:


> *Kerdi is so messy and time consuming.* Find a distributer that sells WEDI board. It's an extruded polystyrene waterproof board that gets screwed to the studs with screws and washers supplied by WEDI. Once the boards are all installed you'll use a waterproofing sealant(also supplied by WEDI) to seal all the joints, corners and screws. So much faster and time efficient. Prices the same as cement board and kerdi membrane.
> 
> On a side note, I will still use the Schluter shower tray since my tile store doesn't carry the Wedi trays and they say are more expensive.


For who?


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

Kerdi comes in a 1 meter wide roll... I hang it vertically.. It takes me under 5 minutes to hang a 7' tall piece.

Wedi isnt readily available for me... 

How are you using a Schluter tray with the Wedi walls? Are you also using a Kerdi drain? Basically, I want to know how you're waterproofing a Kerdi tray, if you dont like using the Kerdi membrane...


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## Darwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Ed4x4 said:


> I worry about guaranting tile jobs without properly waterproofing. I wouldnt mind if it was waterproofed because I feel more confident in the lifespan of the job.


You have to ask yourself. How long do you think the job you will do hold up (doing it half-a****)? When you have the answer, warranty it for that time _minus_ 6 months.:shutup:

Good Luck!


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## djcg (Dec 31, 2009)

Splinter said:


> Kerdi comes in a 1 meter wide roll... I hang it vertically.. It takes me under 5 minutes to hang a 7' tall piece.
> 
> Wedi isnt readily available for me...
> 
> How are you using a Schluter tray with the Wedi walls? Are you also using a Kerdi drain? Basically, I want to know how you're waterproofing a Kerdi tray, if you dont like using the Kerdi membrane...


what i'll do is use the schluter tray and drain assembly and waterproof it with kerdi. the corners will get waterproofed with kerdi band onto the WEDI board. since the WEDI board is already waterproof, no more kerdi is required.

What i mean by time consuming is not the time it takes to put the kerdi on, but the fact that it's an extra step. look at the comparisons. Screw your cement board or whatever to the walls. VS. screwing the WEDI board to the walls. next, you have to measure, cut, mix thin-set, let it slake, then trowel it on, then lay the membrane and smooth it out. VS. applying WEDI sealant to the joints. in my opinion, WEDI is much quicker.

It's not that i don't like the kerdi membrane, I just find that the WEDI board system if much more convenient to install with the same results. Just my personal preference. Perhaps when the Kerdi board's come out, I'll switch. who knows


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## Kyras (Jan 2, 2010)

Pffft. Waterproofing is overrated hype. In a standard shower, no seat, no knee wall or niche, tile over Durock, Permabase, Wonderboard, etc. will perform without any problems whatever for the rest of your life. There is no water penetration and very little wickup from the pan mud. Show me a real life problem because I've never seen it in 30 years.

Steam showers, seats, knee walls, niches - That's another story and it needs waterproofer. All this Kerdi, Schluter, Redgard crap that's been hyped for the last decade is not needed for a standard shower or tub surround. Ask yourself how anyone ever got along before it existed.

So explain to me, seriously I would like to know, why is this needed? Because I'm not having issues. Other than steam showers, the only need to waterproof is wet horizontal surfaces (for instance on a bench seat I will run pan, durock the face [nails], mud the top [no nails], then for good measure, even though it's not needed, Redgard the bench area and flash around it, no need to do the entire shower). Sell me on your product, I don't see the point.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Kyras said:


> Pffft. Waterproofing is overrated hype. In a standard shower, no seat, no knee wall or niche, tile over Durock, Permabase, Wonderboard, etc. will perform without any problems whatever for the rest of your life. There is no water penetration and very little wickup from the pan mud. Show me a real life problem because I've never seen it in 30 years.
> 
> Steam showers, seats, knee walls, niches - That's another story and it needs waterproofer. All this Kerdi, Schluter, Redgard crap that's been hyped for the last decade is not needed for a standard shower or tub surround. Ask yourself how anyone ever got along before it existed.
> 
> So explain to me, seriously I would like to know, why is this needed? Because I'm not having issues. Other than steam showers, the only need to waterproof is wet horizontal surfaces (for instance on a bench seat I will run pan, durock the face [nails], mud the top [no nails], then for good measure, even though it's not needed, Redgard the bench area and flash around it, no need to do the entire shower). Sell me on your product, I don't see the point.



Welcome to the forum. After reading your intro, I see you're a self-proclaimed old school setter. That explains your view on water proofing.

As you can tell, a lot of guys disagree with your view. Here's another way to look at it. Have you ever demo'd a shower without the use of CBU that didn't have mold? I would guess, probably not. That is all the proof I need water moisture penetrates the tiled surface.

Actually, I have _never_ demo'd a shower that wasn't mold-filled, regardless of age. Then again, I never demo'd a fully waterproofed shower either. How did anyone get along without waterproofing before? I don't know but it is sure keeping me in business now!

Here is the curb of a mud bed shower:









I'd say water won this battle.

You can continue hoping water never infiltrates your installations, I'll continue knowing water can't on mine.

Hope you stick around. We can always use another tile guy here! :thumbup:


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## djcg (Dec 31, 2009)

Kyras said:


> Pffft. Waterproofing is overrated hype. In a standard shower, no seat, no knee wall or niche, tile over Durock, Permabase, Wonderboard, etc. will perform without any problems whatever for the rest of your life. There is no water penetration and very little wickup from the pan mud. Show me a real life problem because I've never seen it in 30 years.
> 
> Steam showers, seats, knee walls, niches - That's another story and it needs waterproofer. All this Kerdi, Schluter, Redgard crap that's been hyped for the last decade is not needed for a standard shower or tub surround. Ask yourself how anyone ever got along before it existed.
> 
> So explain to me, seriously I would like to know, why is this needed? Because I'm not having issues. Other than steam showers, the only need to waterproof is wet horizontal surfaces (for instance on a bench seat I will run pan, durock the face [nails], mud the top [no nails], then for good measure, even though it's not needed, Redgard the bench area and flash around it, no need to do the entire shower). Sell me on your product, I don't see the point.



Every single shower that I've taken out to renovate or repair that has not been waterproofed has proven to be disastrous. The system you likely use to build a shower stall with that black rubber membrane and mortar bed is severely flawed. Each one I've removed has showed that water gets everywhere. There is water under the tiles, under the thin-set, under the mortar bed, under the membrane and under the concrete slab. The standard 2x6's used to create the curb are completely saturated with water that if you press your finger on them, water squeezes out.

The biggest problem is the grout. Grout is not waterproof. It is extremely porous. Meaning, water(and vapour especially) will penetrate it. Every time I pull tile out, there is massive mold behind them on the "almighty" green board, on the studs behind them, on the 2x6 curb and on the subfloor underneath.

I'm completely serious when I say this has happened on EVERY shower stall or bath surround I've pulled out. Where there is water, there should be a building inspection. Waterproofing and ultimately, mold-proofing should be at least a minimum building code. 

Shame on you for not accepting proven methods and new systems. You'll soon fade out with the rest of them. Do yourself a favour and do your homework. People pay for your knowledge. Get with the times old yellar.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

I would be very careful when combining different shower systems, boards, waterproofers, etc. 

Modern waterproofing products are often engineered as a system.


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Angus,
Is that a lead pan liner? Hard to tell from picture


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

pgc555 said:


> Angus,
> Is that a lead pan liner? Hard to tell from picture


Yep


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

angus242 said:


> Welcome to the forum. After reading your intro, I see you're a self-proclaimed old school setter. That explains your view on water proofing.
> 
> As you can tell, a lot of guys disagree with your view. Here's another way to look at it. Have you ever demo'd a shower without the use of CBU that didn't have mold? I would guess, probably not. That is all the proof I need water moisture penetrates the tiled surface.
> 
> ...


The only thing I can add to this great post is, we got along for hundreds of years before electricity as well....I mean, hell we don't _need_ it. You keep building breeding grounds for mold, Kyras, and it only helps me sell the need for a better system. Thanks :thumbsup:


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## Kyras (Jan 2, 2010)

First off, I tend to post a bit dramatically to provoke discussion.

Second, pleased to meet you.

Since my diverging opinion seems to make you want to throw rocks, I will give my qualifications, not as a pissing contest, but in order to make my opinion valid.

I made my living installing tile and stone since I was 17, it's all I've ever done. I am 47.
I was trained by an 82 year old master who set tile every day since the age of 12.
He learned from his father who founded the Chicago Tilesetter's Union.
He learned from HIS father who was a lifetime stone mason in the cathedrals of Wales.
I have worked alone, I have had 14 employees and everything in between.
I have worked my whole life in one town under one name.
I am one of the most expensive in my area and rightfully so.
I am easily in the top five installers within 50 miles.
I was brought up on mud walls, but have installed any system you can name.
I warranty my work for a minimum of 5 years, but if it's my fault, I will fix it 20 years later for free.
I have never run from a job or been run off of one.
I have had the same phone number for decades and I don't screen my calls ever.

That said, I stand by my comments about waterproofers being overhyped. It's part of the dumbing down of the trade, from the introduction of mastic in the 50's to styrofoam curbs (which is kinda sad). Why it's being dumbed down is an entirely different rant I won't go into here.

There is nothing wrong with the traditional shower pan waterproofing. If you are seeing problems it's because it's installed badly. The rotted curb picture, well it's a lead pan, and that means it's 25 years old or more. From the orange corrosion, the shower saw heavy use for 25 years. If it was vinyl, and had been properly run to wrap the curb, you would not be tearing it out. There is a huge lack of skill, training and understanding in our trade. This would account for all the leaks you may be seeing. It's not product failure is it. It's poor installation. Of course, you don't tear out the one's that aren't leaking, so you only see the screwups people have made. As for the mold you see in every job all the time, I can't say I've seen that and I've torn out my share. But in 30 years I have never torn out one single shower that I installed with my own two hands. I have torn out 40 year old showers that my master did due to the lead corroding or those horrible 70's colors, but have never seen any mold in the walls or deterioration of wall studs other than from the bad pan.

So, when am I gonna "soon fade out like the rest of them"? Waterproofers are overhyped, like I said in my first post.

ETA I see the wall tile in that picture has old mastic on it. That would imply that the walls were on sheetrock (certainly not mud) I suppose that would generate mold in the walls no doubt.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

I'll readily and happily agree with you that 99% of all tile failures can be attributed to installer error. That being said, waterproofing makes absolute perfect sense. Lets say, for the time being, I agree with you on it being "overhyped".....still why wouldn't you want to do it? I have no doubt you have great hand skills and can eyeball a pin wheel pattern on a 1000 ft layout with hallways....common sense is still common sense. You don't have to loose your many generations of setting skills to embrace new technology. Case in point - Do you use thinset?

Tile and stone setters have got to be the most hard headed bunch of folks on the planet when it comes to learning new ways of doing things. I say that with the utmost respect and humor. It's like they feel threatened by it or something....


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Kyras said:


> Since my diverging opinion seems to make you want to throw rocks


I wouldn't say the rock throwing was one way. You came into a forum, as a new guy, and threw a few grenades of your own.

I'll agree with you when you say a lot of shower issues are caused by poor installation. No doubt.

Let's back up a bit. Are you saying that moisture cannot penetrate mortar?

Further more, the pan that I demo'd was lead. It is a known fact that lead pans have a certain life span before failure. That in itself is a reason for waterproofing. 

Going another route, are we to believe that a mud bed is the only way to install a tile floor? Or should we be ok with using CBU and thinset? 

My point? Even though tiling is a very old trade doesn't mean technology advancements can't be a good thing.


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## Kyras (Jan 2, 2010)

I apologize if I came on strong. My fault, and I'm never too proud to admit it. Didn't mean to come bustin in the door like that. Sometimes I can be tactless.



Of course water penetrates horizontal mortar (be it backer board or mud). The question is does it penetrate on a vertical surface. My answer would be no, unless it's a steam shower. At least not to any appreciable degree. Enough to cause issues with sheetrock, although most of that comes from grout issues or wick up from the bottom, not enough to cause any damage to studs or cause moisture issues that I've ever seen. Therefore no waterproofing is needed. Horizontals like benches or knee walls invite water penetration unless waterproofed (although there is more than on way to skin a cat). My problem comes with the kneejerk waterproof-everything mentality. Schluter systems are incredible overkill. So is redgard everywhere everytime. I will (being honest not mean) say it reflects a lack of understanding.

As far as what the harm is... like I mentioned before, it's part of the dumbing down of the trade. Just buy our product and slather it everywhere don't miss a spot. Here's some styrofoam to put it on, but don't forget the special primer. Ever been to ColorTile back in the day? They would sell you all kinds of crap you didn't need. Ever take your truck to Firestone? I bet they put in new brake pads, rotors, drums and cables, not that you needed half of it. Change your oil every 3,000 miles? You're gettin suckered if you didn't know (that advice was outdated 20 years ago). Rinse and repeat, you know the drill.

What I'm saying is, the producers of the materials are taking full advantage of 1) the paranoia of a leaky shower and 2) the lack of understanding amongst their customers.

Yes, I know that's lead, my old boss used to save 'em up and melt 'em down for fishing weights. The thing is, while lead would last forever if coated with tar, no one ever did it, so the reaction between the cement and the lead caused the lead to go down the drain over a 25 year span. A good vinyl pan will last 100 years before it gets brittle. How long does Redgard last?

I have friends that coat the crap out of everything. They just can't give a good reason why. I was hoping someone could explain in a manner that made sense. I am open to change (have you tried the new 525 thinset from Bonsal? Good Lord it doesn't just "claim" to hang tile in space it actually does it! That was a badly needed product. Waterproofer, not so much.

ETA I forgot. Mud floor vs CBU. Mud is better always and will outlive all others. But CBU, properly installed, servers a purpose of making floors flush to other surfaces in a reliable manner. Like shower pans, a badly installed CBU is doomed before the grout sets.

Dagnabitt ETA The reason tile guys don't embrace change quickly may come from the nature of the work itself. I build everything to outlive me. Therefore I use methods which are proven. When something new comes out (Styroboard ugh) I will sit and watch. Not all products are good. Ever seen the Chloralloy pans from the late 60's? That didn't go too well. Once they have a proven track record I will use what makes actual sense and makes a better job. (Styroboard makes MY life easier, it does not make a better JOB which is the whole point). Tile is a durable product and lasts forever. Your installation should live up to that.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Kyras said:


> I build everything to outlive me. Therefore I use methods which are proven. When something new comes out (Styroboard ugh) I will sit and watch. Not all products are good. Ever seen the Chloralloy pans from the late 60's? That didn't go too well. Once they have a proven track record I will use what makes actual sense and makes a better job. (Styroboard makes MY life easier, it does not make a better JOB which is the whole point). Tile is a durable product and lasts forever. Your installation should live up to that.


Well you've just agreed with what I believe to be my point. With tile, you need a long time before something can be considered time tested. How long? Who really knows. If someone builds a shower and doesn't waterproof, how long will it take until you find out? Sometimes during inspection. Sometimes years later. You just don't know. I'd much rather use waterproofing. Does it make me a less "talented" installer? Perhaps. However, if I can give a quality install that will be waterproofed without question, why wouldn't I? BTW, I warranty _all _of my installations for 10 years.

I hate to tell you but the tiling industry has changed. You don't have to like it or do you have to change your procedures. I choose to use Schluter products for various reasons. One of which is they're field tested. Ditra and Kerdi have been around longer than quite a few other products. But I digress. I'm not going to try to convince you of any materials or methods. That's not my job. If none of the manufacturers are able to convince you, I surely won't. However, what you should take notice of is the amount of installers that are using these type of products. There are plenty of "old timers" that are on board. You can take your experience debates up with them. I'm not qualified to. I don't do mud bed installations because honestly, I was never properly taught how to. 

I pride myself on being versed in current methods and that's where my bread and butter is. I appreciate your opinion and respect your experience but what I don't have to agree with is that my method of building a shower is inferior to anything that's been done in the past. That's why they're called opinions, my friend!

Oh, and I didn't think you came on too strong, I was just mentioning that after you referred to rocks being thrown your way. No worries.


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## pgc555 (Aug 22, 2009)

Just another "old school" guy adding my two cents. I too have been setting for 40 years. I thought I would never get that shower done.

Seriously, this forum has a lot of grey or no hair guys ( like me)
that remember when. Both Angus and Kyras have reinforced the point
that setter skill is a problem and has been growing in our trade for years.
Older setters either are not training up the younger guys or are training in methods that the newer guys dismiss.

New products are being brought to market to try to convince the industry that their products will make up for operator error. But, newer products
are better than the ones we used to use. Anybody do a cutback floor lately?

No SINGLE installation technique will EVER be embraced by everyone and we all know that. This forum gives us a platform to share how we install showers and by the amount years that these guys guarantee their work, no doubt they are both tradesman in the fullest sense of the word.

Anyone that guarantees their work longer than 5 minutes or 5 miles which ever comes first, means that they believe in their skills and
stand behind their methods. They just happen to be different sometimes


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## Kyras (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks. I've enjoyed our discussion a great deal and it's given me food for thought. I am going to reconsider my steam shower approach. I've been unhappy ever since they discontinued Trowel and Seal. I'll see you on the next one and good luck in 2010.


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## djcg (Dec 31, 2009)

ok Kyras, so you're a master tile setter, you've learned through 4 generations of master tile setters. but do you own one of those 10lb motorola cell phones still? do you mix thin-set with a stick? wait, do you still drive a horse and buggy? do you still light and warm your house with candles? those things worked fine but guess what? technology changed. it advanced. it got better. now you have incandescent or cfl bulbs and most likely, a furnace. now you drive a car(or a truck). now you use a drill to mix thin-set. now you either have a blackberry or a flip phone(the latter being my personal fave) waterproofing is just another advancement. 

It's not about trying to convince you. it's just about doing what makes sense. why wouldn't you waterproof? it just adds to your list of skills. and FYI(which is short form for "for your information" which is a new thing ever since that weird "internet" came around) that Schluter systems aren't brand new. They've been around since the early 80's which is almost as long as you've been laying tile. it isn't just some brand new craze and just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's useless.


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## Kyras (Jan 2, 2010)

Perhaps your reading comprehension is low. The discussion is about the overuse of waterproofers where they are not required, not the merits of waterproofers in general. Perhaps you should dial down the sarcasm and leave this to those who have something to contribute. I'm sorry that you feel so threatened, but your grade school attack is pathetic. Did you expect a positive response to your blathering?


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## Ed4x4 (Nov 24, 2009)

Kyras said:


> Pffft. Waterproofing is overrated hype. In a standard shower, no seat, no knee wall or niche, tile over Durock, Permabase, Wonderboard, etc. will perform without any problems whatever for the rest of your life. There is no water penetration and very little wickup from the pan mud. Show me a real life problem because I've never seen it in 30 years.


That was the answer I was looking for to my basic question, thank you. Many builders are only concerned about the house lasting as long as their warranty. I cant pass every job up because they refuse to spend the extra to completely waterproof a shower. Durock, tile, grout. I will definately keep kerdi around as an upsale and push it, but I cant force it.

Thanks for all the input guys. Still in the learning process when it comes to shower tiling, and I've definately picked up on quiet a bit just from this thread.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Ed4x4 said:


> That was the answer I was looking for to my basic question, thank you. Many builders are only concerned about the house lasting as long as their warranty. I cant pass every job up because they refuse to spend the extra to completely waterproof a shower. Durock, tile, grout. I will definately keep kerdi around as an upsale and push it, but I cant force it.
> 
> Thanks for all the input guys. Still in the learning process when it comes to shower tiling, and I've definately picked up on quiet a bit just from this thread.


Ed, I think you're missing the point of the discussion that's been happening recently. Kyras is talking about something that you might be falling victim to. He is an extremely qualified installer. If you careful read his posts and the others about building/demo'ing showers, you'll see that we all agree, if you build a shower incorrectly, it _will_ leak. 

You admit to be "still in the learning process when it comes to shower tiling" so I'll caution you about not using waterproofing. Unless you are being trained by someone who has years of experience installing shower without waterproofing, you're most likely asking for trouble.

I feel pretty safe to say, even Kyras would agree with me on this one. Inexperience is not a good thing when tiling showers.

My suggestion is until you really know what you're doing, bring along some Redgard and at a bare _minimum_, do your seams.

Don't come to the internet, wait for one person to agree with you, just so you can skip a step. Mark my words, if you don't know what you're doing, you _will _have a failure.


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## Kyras (Jan 2, 2010)

I don't recommend books or the internet (the way I came across this message board was surfing shower waterproofing and laughing at all the misinformation out there). But, this book is an exception and one all tilesetters should read. Get it, read it, you will be miles ahead. Still, experience and training have no replacement.

Bah I'm not allowed to post the url, but it's Michael Byrne's "Setting Tile", order it thru Amazon.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

angus242 said:


> Ed, I think you're missing the point of the discussion that's been happening recently. Kyras is talking about something that you might be falling victim to. He is an extremely qualified installer. If you careful read his posts and the others about building/demo'ing showers, you'll see that we all agree, if you build a shower incorrectly, it _will_ leak.
> 
> You admit to be "still in the learning process when it comes to shower tiling" so I'll caution you about not using waterproofing. Unless you are being trained by someone who has years of experience installing shower without waterproofing, you're most likely asking for trouble.
> 
> ...


Once again, beat me to it. I couldn't agree more :thumbsup: If you have little experience constructing showers, you are in waaay over your head. Start totaling up the potential costs of a leaking shower on the second floor of a residence and you will quickly find out how deep your liability gets. Bear in mind, that by the time the leak is noticed it as been that way for months at a minimum.

If there is one negative to the newer methods, it has to be that people think they will make up for installer experience.

They don't.


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## Ed4x4 (Nov 24, 2009)

angus242 said:


> Ed, I think you're missing the point of the discussion that's been happening recently. Kyras is talking about something that you might be falling victim to. He is an extremely qualified installer. If you careful read his posts and the others about building/demo'ing showers, you'll see that we all agree, if you build a shower incorrectly, it _will_ leak.
> 
> You admit to be "still in the learning process when it comes to shower tiling" so I'll caution you about not using waterproofing. Unless you are being trained by someone who has years of experience installing shower without waterproofing, you're most likely asking for trouble.
> 
> ...


 
I dont disagree with you. I havent even attempted a shower install yet. Im currently re-tiling a bathroom at my parents house, starting with the floor. Ive signed up for a tiling class through a local technology center, which actually starts this Tuesday. I'll complete the class before I even think about doing the shower. My parents house, I'll definately waterproof, most likely using kerdi. I was accepting kyras answer as, maybe not the 100% right way, but acceptable (if done properly) for a builder that wants to skip the waterproofing, which the builder who I questioned did.

My question was new construction homes. If the builder wants to skimp out on waterproofing, I'll do the same with my warranty. When it comes to a remodel where I am more liable, I wont do it unless it is waterproofed, but that is a ways down the road. Im not looking to get in over my head, if Im not sure of something, I wont do it, and Ill say now, Im not sure. I do a top notch job when it comes to carpet and wood flooring, and I intend to be able to provide the same quality tile installation one day. Everyone's gotta start somewhere. I'll work my way up. Start small, build big.

I do appreciate all the discussion and advice.


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## Ed4x4 (Nov 24, 2009)

oooook I started my tile class last night and quickly realized I asked my question wrong, my fault. My current project is a shower at my parents house, but its not a walk in tile. Its a fiberglass tube with a shower in the wall, so no floor tiles. *My question should have been, what about waterproofing walls in a situation like this?*

Showers with tiled floors I completely understand waterproofing, but on a wall where water will not be just sitting, is it as important?

Sorry guys, now I see why you all thought I was so retarded for questioning waterproofing. We were on different pages, my apologies.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I think I've already made my feelings known on this subject.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Ed4x4 said:


> oooook I started my tile class last night and quickly realized I asked my question wrong, my fault. My current project is a shower at my parents house, but its not a walk in tile. Its a fiberglass tube with a shower in the wall, so no floor tiles. *My question should have been, what about waterproofing walls in a situation like this?*
> 
> Showers with tiled floors I completely understand waterproofing, but on a wall where water will not be just sitting, is it as important?
> 
> Sorry guys, now I see why you all thought I was so retarded for questioning waterproofing. We were on different pages, my apologies.


Bottom line is Ed, if there is tile on the wall of a shower it needs waterproofing. At a bare minimum it needs a vapor barrier behind the backer unit. Grout is not waterproof. Mortar is not waterproof. Ceramic, depending on the absorbency rating, is not water proof. 

The funny thing about water is, it is just like mice. The entry point required is exponentially smaller than the damage they can do, once it has breached a boundary.

The secondary issue is mold. In the presence of moisture and a suitable food source, it WILL grow.

The bottom line is, for less than $2/sf all of this becomes a non-issue. Why not is a much better question than why, imho. Common sense is always better to have now than later.


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## Ed4x4 (Nov 24, 2009)

PrecisionFloors said:


> The bottom line is, for less than $2/sf all of this becomes a non-issue. Why not is a much better question than why, imho. Common sense is always better to have now than later.


I gotcha, better safe then sorry. Just trying to get all the knowledge I can on this stuff so when approached with a question, I've got a good answer.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Ed4x4 said:


> I gotcha, better safe then sorry. *Just trying to get all the knowledge I can on this stuff so when approached with a question, I've got a good answer.*


And for that I commend you. :thumbsup: You are already a step up from most "installers" I run into.

Get yourself a TCA Handbook asap. 

http://www.tileusa.com/publication_main.htm


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## Ed4x4 (Nov 24, 2009)

PrecisionFloors said:


> And for that I commend you. :thumbsup: You are already a step up from most "installers" I run into.
> 
> Get yourself a TCA Handbook asap.


Thank you sir, I will absolutely get that!


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Kyris, I am going to assume you do mud walls as well as floors?

When you say the trade is "dumbing" down, I will give you credit for the skill it takes to do a mud wall. 
I just ripped out one today that was installed 22 years ago. The walls were in perfect condition (except for the grout of course), and the base was, well, like the other hundred I've ripped out, saturated with water and mould. Here in Ontario finding a properly done traditional shower installation is near impossible. Every job is done with the liner sitting on the subfloor with the mortar sloped to the drain. No pre-slope...ever. 

This shower was odd in that it was only a 22 year house - I did not expect to find a mud wall behind the tile. Most jobs of that era feature MR drywall which have normally failed. 

From my perspective, I do complete bathroom renovations and the extra few hundred dollars and a bit of extra time it takes to install kerdi does not add that much to the $20K bathroom. Neither does products like Spectralock epoxy grout, which I use on every job.

We are selling piece of mind, and yes, that does cost more Sir!


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