# "tamko Valley" California Cut



## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

Doing a 55 sq, 4 valley roof, even pitch 4/12 in snow country. I'm planning to do a "california cut". One pitch runs through the valley at least a foot....second pitch is cut at the angle of the valley.

I have used Grace I&W continuous in the valley, then I wove JM granular I&W, and synthetic felt horizontally.

I was reading the July Issue of "the Journal of Light Construction, Reroofing With Asphault Shingles" by Jim Bennet/ Bennet Roofing, Brewster Mass.

Bennet prefers the Tamko Valley....apparently it is illustrated on the packaging and is the Man. suggested install. I had never seen this type of install but I can see the benefits. eg...you run your valley like you would for a "california cut" but instead of cutting you butt shingles end to end vertically up the rake and start the horizontal shingles at the valley square without cutting.

I'm doing this roof for my folks...55 sq. solo! Full tear off etc...(time and money is a concern)

The California cut is considered an industry standard here, and I can't see how the Tamko style is any weaker the the Cal.Cut. The Tamko Valley would save me SO much time with less waste. The auther is in New England which is a pretty harsh climate for roofs (comparable to WNY) so I think I'm going to give it go.

Before I get started shingleing, I just thought I'd see what some of you guys think.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

We have been doing it for years in the Chicago area, because my guys did read the bundle wrapper.

Ed


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

I procrastinated about using that method for a few years after I had seen it done but now it's a regular routine for me and my guys.
The only negative talk I have heard/read about it is a few people referring to it as a lazy way of making a neat valley.
Lazy or not it's just as reliable a method, looks as good and saves a few mins of time.


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> We have been doing it for years in the Chicago area, because my guys did read the bundle wrapper.
> 
> Ed


cool, your endorsement means a lot! Is it as efficient as I'm hoping? The article shows to roof cement the soldier course, is that necessary?


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Not if you are already installing the Ice and Water Shield in the valley.

I wrote a very lengthy post on JLC about the attributes of that valley shingling method, which some members and 2 of their editors had suggested would make a worthwhile article topic, but I felt it was too mundane and already well known. So, I did not feel like submitting it to them.

Now that shows you how much I really know, LOL.

Ed


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## Patrick (Apr 12, 2006)

We always use a Tamko Valley ALWAYS It is also very easy for a guy to master. and it looks very clean from the ground


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Mine is 12/12, has "W" metal,
but otherwise it's done that way.
2 winters now, and a couple of
record rains, including Monday's 
5" in two hours at 70mph.


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

My only concern was the asthetic look...is it obvious that you started with a full, uncut shingle? I'm doing black so it will blend well, but what about other colors?


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

If you know what to look for, you can see the right angle zipper, but it does not look out of place.

Ed


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Mine is the dark green Elk,
And you can't tell unless you're 
on the roof. :thumbsup:


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## red_cedar (Mar 30, 2005)

I am familar with the valley method that is being mentioned here.

Could one briefly explain the benfits of this kind of valley installation other then less work. 

Perhaps I am just set in my ways, but the first time I saw this done, 18 or so yrs ago, given the contractor who was doing the work I thought it was just someone cutting corners on an installtion. Now it seems thats all guys know how to do now and is the norm.

Again I think I have just been installing too long to know the difference to what is better or not better.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

With the standard open cut valley, where you place the first side of shingles approximately 2/3rds past the valley and the 2nd side 1/3rd across the valley and then snap a chalk line and cut the top shingles, you use up 1 bundle of shingles for every 11 feet 5 inches, so a 34 foot 3 inch valley is 1 square + about 3 more shingles used.

With the other method mentioned, you only use a little more than 11 shingles placed parallel to the valley and there is no cutting and less potential of a rookie blunder of slicing through the bottom shingles in the valley.

It is a neater method, with less materials used and also less leak potential.

Also, best if you cut dog ears off the top corners on the parallel shingles at the top corner.

Also, best practice for protection is to instal Ice and Water Shield in every valley.

Ed


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## J-Peffer (Mar 3, 2007)

Ed the Roofer said:


> With the standard open cut valley, where you place the first side of shingles approximately 2/3rds past the valley and the 2nd side 1/3rd across the valley and then snap a chalk line and cut the top shingles, you use up 1 bundle of shingles for every 11 feet 5 inches, so a 34 foot 3 inch valley is 1 square + about 3 more shingles used.
> 
> With the other method mentioned, you only use a little more than 11 shingles placed parallel to the valley and there is no cutting and less potential of a rookie blunder of slicing through the bottom shingles in the valley.
> 
> ...



I mostly install CertainTeed landmarks so have always used a cross cut method in valley's.

I don't think the waste is that much, I always start in the valley and I loose 7" off each 40" shingle that I cut. I try to keep the first side that goes down about centered in the valley.

I'm not 100% clear on this method though, I've never installed a Tam shingle. You run your first side normal.....then run a course up the valley vertically? And just but the bottom of your shingles to the vertical course?

If it's what I'm picturing, sounds awfully sloppy looking


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Here is a sample of one.

Ed


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)




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## J-Peffer (Mar 3, 2007)

Looks fine from the ground from what I can tell.

But up on the roof, to me anyway, it would look like someone was trying to get away from a chalk line and hook blade IE. Cutting corners.

I'm sure it performs just fine,but just my opinion on the style of valley.


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

Damn it Neo....I just spent 20 minutes or more searching for a picture, I just came back to post the link and you have the exact one!!!!!!!
http://www.tamko.com/Portals/0/documents/28923.pdf



along the way I found this site http://www.navarroroofingsucks.com/:laughing:
They did their valleys the same, but with 3-tab!


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

Well $.02, withought trying the Tamko way...is if you're going to do an open cut the only way to make a clean line is with a shingle shear or to pre-cut. Chalk and hook blade to me is like ripping with a cir.saw instead of a tablesaw (some guys got it, some don't).

One glitch I did catch is the seams in the vertical shingles can't be exposed. However that shouldn't be a hard miss or fix.


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

Again.... no fist fights ok.... 
but i dont use the tamko valley. It is a short cut...
made avail by tamko to make friends with roofers.. 
Kidding, dunno what they were thinking... 
making life easier for roofers?
Roofer's dont deserve any breaks!!!!! At least i never got one?!!!

Don't use it... i feel the laps and nails in the butted vertical course are too easily fu%$ed up and could leak... 
and if you have to use I&W shield, that means your S&%t leaks anyway. Good roofers dont put on roofs that leak. I&W is not a failsafe... stop using it in valleys, just do your vallies right and they wont leak. I dont count on s&*&^^ to keep my roof dry EXCEPT SHINGLES, AND QUALITY INSTALLATION.Hope this helps.

The tamko valley looks great. No doubt is easier than cutting the whole valley. But not faster i wouldn't say. I use california/ western valley (Cut one side) and keep nails, laps and quality behind every nail. 18 years of roofing and only 3 leaks... ever. Use whatever valley you like. I think i have it figured out the way i like it.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm not likely to do many more roofs,
but the reason I like it (so far) is
when I see guys cutting one side
all the way down they aren't able to
dog that top corner.
I'd say more than 75% of all the valley
leaks I've seen are from water catching
on that top point, and traveling back
from whatever the underlayment is.


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## J-Peffer (Mar 3, 2007)

neolitic said:


> I'm not likely to do many more roofs,
> but the reason I like it (so far) is
> when I see guys cutting one side
> all the way down they aren't able to
> ...



It's super easy to nip that top corner.....

Snapping a line and getting a strait valley is also very easy. A well trained monkey or a untrained human can cut a strait well placed chalked line down a shingled valley on a warm afternoon. 

I put down Ice & Water in every valley regardless as a fail safe, as it's recommended by any manufacture. But I won't cut a corner because it's there.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Shingle one side of the valley, chalk a line, run shingles up to line, cut with large snips, clip top corner. That dont take too long.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

I know how to cut them 
the right way.
What I *see* being done is 
that they run wild all the way up,
then come back and pop a line
and make one long cut.


I'm so anal I dog the tops 
all the way up the rake as well.


I've always said, I could 
teach a chimp to run step flashing,
but I've still seen it done a hundred 
wrong ways.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

neolitic said:


> I know how to cut them
> the right way.
> What I *see* being done is
> that they run wild all the way up,
> ...


I never said you didnt know how to cut them.

I actually think it is harder to run them over, chalk it and hook blade it.
You scar up the ones underneath.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> I never said you didnt know how to cut them.
> 
> I actually think it is harder to run them over, chalk it and hook blade it.
> You scar up the ones underneath.


Hard as they are to cut it
amazes me too, but I still 
see guys doing it.
I just watched a guy down 
the block from my job last week.


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## J-Peffer (Mar 3, 2007)

neolitic said:


> Hard as they are to cut it
> amazes me too, but I still
> see guys doing it.
> I just watched a guy down
> the block from my job last week.


I've used the shear on them in the winters, just cut them all and go at it, that's pretty quick.

But I just run mine like you guys run the tam valley. I just slide them over about 7" run my stagger up the valley and have other guys follow up behind me. 

It only waste 7" off each 40" shingle. I snap a line before running them up there. I lace the bottom course, and cut the 2nd one so I can see the line. I cut the top one so I can find my line, snap, and work my way down cutting. I just lift the shingle, nip the top corner to keep the water from following down the course then.

It honestly takes no more than 10 mins, when you get to the top, immediately just snap, and start your way down. Little task like this are annoying, but they go fast if you just get them out of the way asap.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Do the valleys right and you won't have to cut at all. Plus you won't have any chances of leaks. Cut valleys can easily leak, especially on low pitches.

BTW, it's about [email protected] time you guys finally caught on to this. We have been doing this for many years now, and everyone was against it at first.

21gun, you sure are cocky. I used to think it was a trait of roofers, but the out of work carpenters and framers coming on now, sure are full of themselves.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

I only do a one cut valley method. I run the second roof off the center of the valley enough to keep a 6 inch minumal lap. On the right side if running right into a vallye will cut my ears back as they are installed. It's tough to lift up a shingle and cut it while cutting the vallye. I run a shingle up the valley though. It's flipped upside down and prevents cutting on the overlapped shingles underneath. 

I insist all my installers do the valley detail this way. Never had a call back and have done hundreds of roofs this way.

The shingle up the valley does look like a great way to run a valley and more than likely faster once you get a hang of it but I like the one cut look best right down the center of the valley. With Winterguard, Roofer Sellect weave, and 20in valley flashing it's for water to get in. BTW, I have to use ice and water shield and valley flashing with a closed valley.

I know, real roofers don't use any paper.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

dougger222 said:


> ............I know, real roofers don't use any paper.


Nor hatchets and guns.
They just chew the nails
and spit 'em in! :clap:


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

LOL, good one neo....

Dougger, it's 24" valley.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

neolitic said:


>


The way it's done on the right, is the way we do both sides with a 24" "W" valley underneath. Only thing showing is the colored center of the valley. 

If you just put I&W on every penetration like the stormers hack crews do, you won't have any problems.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

MJW said:


> LOL, good one neo....
> 
> Dougger, it's 24" valley.


When I got my roofing license a few years ago the minumal valley width was not 24 inches nor 20 inches. Recall it being more like 16 or 18 inches minumal. Want to say it's 18 inches but not 100% sure.

Seen 24 inch roll valley before but it's more than you need. If using open valley metal I would rather have 24 inch than 18 inch though. The Mexicans at the dump use a lot of wide open valley with three lines running down it. The lines must help direct water that has gotten behind the shingles.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

dougger222 said:


> When I got my roofing license a few years ago the minumal valley width was not 24 inches nor 20 inches. Recall it being more like 16 or 18 inches minumal. Want to say it's 18 inches but not 100% sure.
> 
> Seen 24 inch roll valley before but it's more than you need. If using open valley metal I would rather have 24 inch than 18 inch though. The Mexicans at the dump use a lot of wide open valley with three lines running down it. The lines must help direct water that has gotten behind the shingles.



It used to be 18", split 
and double 36" 90# roll roofing.




neolitic said:


>



Before the copyright police
come for me, this is from Tamko's
application instructions. :thumbsup:


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## 21gun (Aug 4, 2009)

MJW said:


> Do the valleys right and you won't have to cut at all. Plus you won't have any chances of leaks. Cut valleys can easily leak, especially on low pitches.
> 
> BTW, it's about [email protected] time you guys finally caught on to this. We have been doing this for many years now, and everyone was against it at first.
> 
> 21gun, you sure are cocky. I used to think it was a trait of roofers, but the out of work carpenters and framers coming on now, sure are full of themselves.


 
You said it best... cocky. Roofin' for nearly 20 years will do that to a kid.... especially if it has always worked out the way he liked it....99.9% of the time anyhow....

I sounded a bit like a crass beastard in that post... unintentional actually, was trying to keep it short... too short i see. Sorry, buti am still cocky as hell.

Dont believe in the tamko valley, dont like tamko shingles either... too many granules loose in the wrapper, makes the steeper roofs a pain to walk... i do prefer GAF Timberlines... never had the first prob w/ them... sell them exclusively on all my jobs. Cost me more than the shingles i can buy locally, but i just like em that much.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Well, at least it sounds like you do your own work. Can't say that for all the salesmen who call themselves roofers or contractors.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

Lol, the poor guy was just asking if the valley would leak or not.

The first valley I ever saw done like this was in 2003, the roof was installed by Valentine Roofing and I was their for a storm damage roof repair.
The roof was 2 years old than and I went through the valleys looking for signs of water getting underneath and found -o- signs of any problems.
I was on the roof again in 06, when the home owner had me add two sky lights, so I went through the valleys again and all still looked good.

It has no ice guard or metal under the shingles, ears "top corners" not cut because the staggering out of the valley eliminates the need for that.


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## J-Peffer (Mar 3, 2007)

Slyfox said:


> Lol, the poor guy was just asking if the valley would leak or not.
> 
> The first valley I ever saw done like this was in 2003, the roof was installed by Valentine Roofing and I was their for a storm damage roof repair.
> The roof was 2 years old than and I went through the valleys looking for signs of water getting underneath and found -o- signs of any problems.
> ...


I think the valley would hold up fine, but I see it just as a way to turn a amateur into a roofer by allowing them to cut corners.

You could skip starter strip too probably with out much problem, most 30yr shingles have tar strips on the bottom 2" and if you run Ice & Water, you probably would not need your starter.

But it's skipping a step, and cutting a corner still. 90% of the time, it will probably be fine.


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## Slyfox (Dec 22, 2007)

J-Peffer said:


> I think the valley would hold up fine, but I see it just as a way to turn a amateur into a roofer by allowing them to cut corners.
> 
> You could skip starter strip too probably with out much problem, most 30yr shingles have tar strips on the bottom 2" and if you run Ice & Water, you probably would not need your starter.
> 
> But it's skipping a step, and cutting a corner still. 90% of the time, it will probably be fine.


Most roofers in my area had the exact same feelings/thoughts about the closed cut valley when it was first introduced to my area in the late 80's.

The fact ended up being, closed cut valleys hold up just as well as weaved and most "most" home owners and fellow contractors think it looks better.
The above mentioned valley "installed properly" gives you the exact same end result as the traditional closed cut.

Skipping corners doe's not give you the same end result, your example of skipping starters, sure it will not leak into the home "maybe" because it's on the overhang, but when the ice guard begins to give way, which it will being left exposed to the weather, the overhangs will leak.


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

I don't see a valley procedure as skipping steps, although I get what peffer is saying. I&W shield is a good reference to something that helps amateurs go out and get paid for their work.

Doing a valley that is still proper procedure, and using less time and labor is called efficiency.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Certainteed allows this valley method too. Even if CT recommends it I will still do the one cut down the center method.

I've brought several laborers on roofs done by stomers in the past year or two and none liked the look of the shingle up the valley method. My wife has also seen this valley style and she don't even like it!!! They all agree it would be easier in the Winter but it don't have that crisp look as a single cut valley.

The only roofers I see localy doing the valleys like this are from Mexico.

My Dad has been roofing for about 38 years and he would never do a valley like this on one of my jobs.

Does it work and keep back water? YES. Do I like it? NO.


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