# TPO or PVC flat roofing ?? Which is best?



## OldNBroken

I, too, can only speak for my region but I have yet to see a Durolast roof that does not look like someone threw a white tarp on the roof and called it done. Not making any judgement on the material, just the system. They all look like crap and I'd be embarrassed to say I installed it.


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## RooferJim

We install Duro-Last and our roofs all look good. With Duro-Last you have to take the time to use the grip pulls to get the sheet to pull tight and look good.You also have to use a knee pull tool for some of your flashings . They are a good roof and look great when done right. 

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com


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## mrbh

I have inspected many membranes in Florida after many storms and extreme weather and have found Firestone TPO to hold up the best in the weather patterns down here.


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## Grumpy

TPO and PVC and similiar roof membrane but not even close to being the same. I personally install more TPO than PVC, but we do install both. There have been some issues with generation one TPO, as with all first generation products including appliances and automobiles. I beelive those bugs have been worked out but only time will tell. PVC has a better reputation because it has been on the market longer (since the 60's) so it's had more time to work out the bugs. 

Overall the spcifications and warranty durations for TPO & PVC are very much the same. If a customer says to me they want the best roof I steer them towards PVC. If they said they want a good roof for a moderate price then TPO is my answer. TPO costs less than PVC, but not much. Not every customer has a PVC budget however. 

From an installation point of view, all things aside I personally prefer working with TPO over PVC. I just find it easier to weld, no smoke in my face etc... However one thing I like about PVC is the bleedout that you really don't get with TPO. With that bleedout you know it's stuck good and tight. 

The two are not the same but they are close and I am confident installing either. I know some roofers who won't touch TPO and that's their decision. I offer both and give the customer the information they need to decide. I'm no one trick pony.


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## jmiller

jmiller said:


> I emailed the local IB rep over two weeks ago and no response.


For the record, IB did get back to us and the delay was due to the fact that we don't have a local rep. here. They generally don't certify people if there's not a local rep*, but they're going out on a limb and having the Chicago guys work with us for training and first install. 

A week after I posted the above we had a customer who just moved from Eugene request IB be used when we replace the BUR this spring. You gotta love it when things fall into place!

Great thread, thanks to all who posted. :thumbsup:

*The regional asked if I knew of any outside reps in my area looking for work, so send me a PM if interested and I'll get you the contact info.


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## pvcguy

I cannot stand TPO! To me it is the new flavor of the month. I love how the companies offer 20 year warranties, when they do not even know if their products will last that long. Most of the TPO manufacturers are on their 3rd or 4th formulas. TPO is very difficult to patch/repair. It is easy to get cold welds, which if not checked thoroughly will lead to roof failure.
I prefer PVC, and definitely Sarnafil. The PVC has a bleedout when installed, and that lets you know you have a nice firm seal. Additionally, they only sell to select applicators, which allows them to control who is putting on their product, and thus hopefully, means the customer gets a quality install. I actually got the pleasure on going on a plant tour at their plant. Saw the nuts and bolts, and boy what a system the have there. Also got to see a roof of theirs that had been in place for 30 years. Can Tpo say that?
As for Epdm, it is a good product, though if you want a white one...run away. White EPDM is more expensive, and also a huge failure to the industry. As for standard black epdm, again, a good product, but as a buyer, my concern would be the tapes and adhesives on the seams. Those break down over time, and must be figured into your maintenance costs. It's easy to see why, rubber, like alot of products will expand and contract in heat and cold weather, this can cause the material to develop an alligator like look (crating, etc).
As for BUR, it is similar to EPDM, but for those that have a concern about the smoke from PVC, try being exposed to asphalt and tar. I will pass
In regard to a BUR,


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## smalpierre

I thought EPDM was the Yugo of membranes ... maybe that's just the thin cheap stuff. Like anything else, you get what you pay for. If I were installing something on my own flat roof, it'd be PVC, and I'd probably go with fully adhered over tapered cover board.

There is some spec for high wind lift zones that says mechanically attached is more resistant, but I don't believe it - unless the adhesive doesn't bond. I'm the kind of guy that would go way overkill and do both really  Glued and screwed!!! LMFAO!


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## Jaycarter1

For what its worth our company specializes in all single ply systems. I personally prefer TPO over PVC just because of the cost to (profit). In terms of performance I would say both roofing systems installed properly perform well. The only thing i have found with PVC is it seems to be more durable . 

roofing company toronto
toronto roofing companies


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## smalpierre

Well, I've got a roll of TPO sitting in storage, yet ordered the last few membranes in PVC if that tells you anything.


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## smalpierre

In reference to my previous post - I asked my manufacturer why mechanically attached had higher uplift rating - he said it was the backing on the iso board ... it's not the glue letting go, it's the substrate.


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## A&E Exteriors

smalpierre said:


> Well, I've got a roll of TPO sitting in storage, yet ordered the last few membranes in PVC if that tells you anything.


That you are an excellent salesman!


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## RoofSales

Ken, if there was a definitive 'best' roof system we'd all be installing it!

That being said, you can easily determine what system makes the most sense for the particular project in consideration. 

I'll shoot you a quick email with some info...

-Eric


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## SmartRoofers

*Good Luck with TPO*

Spot on!

Look, I have installed 100's of thousands of square feet of both TPO and PVC and can fully appreciate what TPO does for your bottom line and profit margins, as it is cheaper than PVC. The dilemma I have is that I know from experience that TPO roofs fail at a much higher rate than PVC (have replaced 100's of square feet of 7 years or less TPO with PVC). Thjey look similar and that is why most customers will go with whatever the contractor says, and if the profit margin is the only thing driving the contractor to sell TPO, then that contractor is doing his customer a disservice. I'm sure many contractors could care less since many will be gone in 5 years or close shop and re-open under another name, so why not grab the money and go? Seems to work for Wall ST (i digress).

In addition, I have installed many different PVC membranes. there are really only 5 types of PVC Sarnafil, Duro-Last, Fibertite and JM and all the others. The prvious 4 mentioned all manaufacture their own material and have been doing so for 30-40+ years. the other brands like Carlisle, Versico (private labeled Carlise), WeatherBond, IB and Gaf/Elk all come off the same assembly line and plant, whether they all have different formulations or not, it is basically all the same material (back filled with large er scrims). 

I am certified through IB, Duro-Last and Sarnafil and would sell Duro-Last over any of them for many reasons, but mostly because they have the best warranties in the market. None of the other manufacturers can beat the no-dollar limit NDl plus consequential damage that duro-Last includes in the price of it's materials...nobody, not even Sarnafil. If you want to protect your clients investment, then Duro-Last is the way to go. If you want to maximize your profits, then go with TPO.

I personally have no idea if I will be in business for 20 years, therefor I make every effort I can to ensure that my clients have a manufacturer that will cover my workmanship in addition to their material for the life of the warranty. 

If you own a commercial building and are researching these materials, don't be fooled by the sales pitch, look at the warranties closely, because in the end that's all that matters.

For flat roofs tapered roof systems with Duro-Last are the best. Some contractors ***** and moan because of the costs affiliated with Duro-Last (have to use everything Duro-Last from screws to caulking to the underwear you wear), it can be a pain to have to order something and delay a project for a drain or some screws, but in the end, if installed right (which an inspector makes sure it is), is the best system for your client. I have nothing bad to say about Sarnafil or Fibertite both very good products, but the bashing of Duro-Last on this forum is either sour grapes or contractors who don't know what they are doing (either pricing it out or installing it)

good luck everyone!






pvcguy said:


> I cannot stand TPO! To me it is the new flavor of the month. I love how the companies offer 20 year warranties, when they do not even know if their products will last that long. Most of the TPO manufacturers are on their 3rd or 4th formulas. TPO is very difficult to patch/repair. It is easy to get cold welds, which if not checked thoroughly will lead to roof failure.
> I prefer PVC, and definitely Sarnafil. The PVC has a bleedout when installed, and that lets you know you have a nice firm seal. Additionally, they only sell to select applicators, which allows them to control who is putting on their product, and thus hopefully, means the customer gets a quality install. I actually got the pleasure on going on a plant tour at their plant. Saw the nuts and bolts, and boy what a system the have there. Also got to see a roof of theirs that had been in place for 30 years. Can Tpo say that?
> As for Epdm, it is a good product, though if you want a white one...run away. White EPDM is more expensive, and also a huge failure to the industry. As for standard black epdm, again, a good product, but as a buyer, my concern would be the tapes and adhesives on the seams. Those break down over time, and must be figured into your maintenance costs. It's easy to see why, rubber, like alot of products will expand and contract in heat and cold weather, this can cause the material to develop an alligator like look (crating, etc).
> As for BUR, it is similar to EPDM, but for those that have a concern about the smoke from PVC, try being exposed to asphalt and tar. I will pass
> In regard to a BUR,


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## RoofSales

SmartRoofers said:


> Spot on!
> Look, I have installed 100's of thousands of square feet of both TPO and PVC and can fully appreciate what TPO does for your bottom line and profit margins, as it is cheaper than PVC. The dilemma I have is that I know from experience that TPO roofs fail at a much higher rate than PVC (have replaced 100's of square feet of 7 years or less TPO with PVC).


In regards to TPO being more prone to failure... To be fair you must look at WHERE the TPO membrane is failing. Typically the failure is a result of "cold welds" - meaning the root cause of failure is installation, not the material itself. 

Bottom line - TPO is more difficult to install than PVC. Smaller window to heat weld, no visual signs of a "good weld", etc...


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## SmartRoofers

RoofSales said:


> In regards to TPO being more prone to failure... To be fair you must look at WHERE the TPO membrane is failing. Typically the failure is a result of "cold welds" - meaning the root cause of failure is installation, not the material itself.
> 
> Bottom line - TPO is more difficult to install than PVC. Smaller window to heat weld, no visual signs of a "good weld", etc...


Exactly, no bleed out really makes it difficult to check, that being said I have seen TPO pull parapets completely in due to it's less pliable nature, I have also seen previous formulations crack. The PVC roofs that I have seen fail were all over warranty and were down to scrim. When the scrim is located on underside and is tighter like a duro-Last or Fibertite, then it will last longer than those whose products where the scrim is sandwhiched in between the top PVC layer and the back fill (which does nothing for the membrane other than give it extra millage, maybe punture resistance).

Good stuff RoofSales.


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## RoofSales

I would be interested in seeing the construction detail of the walls that failed. Sounds like it may have been a 1-piece wrap...which is not the correct detail (2 piece "skirt" detail should be used on parapet walls).

In terms of membrane cracking - I have seen countless more examples of PVC cracking. Actually, I have never seen TPO crack - just delaminate.

PVC has plasticizers added to make it more pliable. When those plasticizers migrate out of the membrane, they material becomes extremely brittle. When the membrane becomes brittle, a little bit of hail can cause the entire roof system to break down over night...

In terms of the scrim, the tight weave in Duro-Last can actually do more damage to the membrane IF the PVC is brittle... This can be compounded if, like Duro-Last membranes, the PVC material does not have consistent coverage/thickness of PVC in relation to the scrim. Not sure if you have ever seen how Duro-Last sheets are made, but it is almost impossible to get consistent mil thickness.

**I should note that I have no interest in "pushing" one membrane over the other and my statements are based, for the most part, on observations made over years of roofing. I think the "best" roof system is the one that solves the customer's problems..."


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## 1985gt

SmartRoofers said:


> For flat roofs tapered roof systems with Duro-Last are the best. Some contractors ***** and moan because of the costs affiliated with Duro-Last (have to use everything Duro-Last from screws to caulking to the underwear you wear), it can be a pain to have to order something and delay a project for a drain or some screws, but in the end, if installed right (which an inspector makes sure it is), is the best system for your client. I have nothing bad to say about Sarnafil or Fibertite both very good products, but the bashing of Duro-Last on this forum is either sour grapes or contractors who don't know what they are doing (either pricing it out or installing it)
> 
> good luck everyone!


Duro-last has got to be one of the worst membranes I have ever seen, failures after less then 7-8 years, saggy walls bad details and the list goes on.

As far as fasteners go most manufactures require you to use their fasteners, even though most come from olympic, same for ISO have to use their brand but it still comes from atlas or countless others.

The other manufactures you listed also have NDL warranties and they have to be inspected when the project is complete. The only thing duro last has I believe is they will warranty residential applications. 
Not a big deal when you've been in business for a long time and can offer a contractor warranty. 

There are far to many of the duro-last bandwagoners around, I have yet to see a good looking duro-last roof. Here's one we replaced a year or so ago, 6 or so years old, recover over an old bur.




























Just look at all that attention to detail.

I guess since it says "worlds best roof" on their 1/4" extruded EPS recoverboard it must be true!


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## SmartRoofers

1985gt said:


> Duro-last has got to be one of the worst membranes I have ever seen, failures after less then 7-8 years, saggy walls bad details and the list goes on.
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> As far as fasteners go most manufactures require you to use their fasteners, even though most come from olympic, same for ISO have to use their brand but it still comes from atlas or countless others.
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> The other manufactures you listed also have NDL warranties and they have to be inspected when the project is complete. The only thing duro last has I believe is they will warranty residential applications.
> Not a big deal when you've been in business for a long time and can offer a contractor warranty.
> 
> There are far to many of the duro-last bandwagoners around, I have yet to see a good looking duro-last roof. Here's one we replaced a year or so ago, 6 or so years old, recover over an old bur.
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> Just look at all that attention to detail.
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> I guess since it says "worlds best roof" on their 1/4" extruded EPS recoverboard it must be true!



You could not be more wrong. Carlisle, WeatherBond, Gaf/Elk and Versico do not have inspectors and to install their roofs is as easy as ordering up some materials from a supplier and going to town. Duro-Last is like any other manufacturer, they only offer material warranties for residential. IB will offer a commercial warranty on a residential unit, but it starts at about 1,000.00, even if it is 5 squares. After 100 squares it costs 16 cents a square foot.

Duro-Last is the only manufacturer that makes pre-fabricated sheets (instead of rolls, although they do offer roll goods as well), yes these sheets must be stretched to get a smooth surface and if a company does not know how to properly use the GripPuller or other stretching devices then the membrane will be wrinkled. The reason for the pre-fab sheets are two fold, one it allows faster and easier installation for the contractor by eliminating many of the seams (although with a Verimat this usually is not that big of deal) and two, it ensures quality control of most of the welds since it is done in the factory..this allows them to offer the kind of warranties they do.

I'm sorry to hear of the problems such as pine beetles and such, but NO manufacturer is going to warranty against forces of nature (which that is). This is not manufacturer specific.

I have never seen a Duro-Last failure from the product, I have seen some terrible installations of not only Duro-Last but IB and Versico. I have replaced failed TPO roofs and EPDM...that is a fact.

Just like buying a car, some people don't like it, that's fine. To say it's garbage product after being in business for 40+ years is a bit of hyperbole. IB and Duro-Last have been around for the same amount of time. Verisco, WeatherBond and other PVC manufacturers have not. TPO has been reformulated several times over past 20 years for failures on each formulation. You will not see a TPO roof anywhere with the current formulation older than 15 years, that is the epitome of an unproven product.

While Duro-Last may need to screen their contractors better, the product itself has a great track record and longevity rarely matched in Single-Ply industry.









A Properly installed Duro-Last roof does not look any different than a roll good PVC roof.


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## 1985gt

SmartRoofers said:


> You could not be more wrong. Carlisle, WeatherBond, Gaf/Elk and Versico do not have inspectors and to install their roofs is as easy as ordering up some materials from a supplier and going to town. Duro-Last is like any other manufacturer, they only offer material warranties for residential. IB will offer a commercial warranty on a residential unit, but it starts at about 1,000.00, even if it is 5 squares. After 100 squares it costs 16 cents a square foot.


Do some more research. We are a authorized Versico, GAF (no elk on the single ply or BUR) Genflex, JM as well as others. Each and every one of them send out a tech rep when installing a manufacturers warrantied roof. In-fact some times they send them out during the roofing process if its a high profile or high warranty job. 

Sure you can buy the materials from a supply house, but you CAN'T get a warranty. Also Versico will not do any residential warrantys, I believe GAF is going to start or has started.



SmartRoofers said:


> Duro-Last is the only manufacturer that makes pre-fabricated sheets (instead of rolls, although they do offer roll goods as well), yes these sheets must be stretched to get a smooth surface and if a company does not know how to properly use the GripPuller or other stretching devices then the membrane will be wrinkled. The reason for the pre-fab sheets are two fold, one it allows faster and easier installation for the contractor by eliminating many of the seams (although with a Verimat this usually is not that big of deal) and two, it ensures quality control of most of the welds since it is done in the factory..this allows them to offer the kind of warranties they do.


Using a grip pull does not do anything for bagging walls, it makes the field to wall angle change tight but not the walls. Walls should be glued. Factory welded seams are fine, except you still have to weld over the fastening plates, a failed weld there will still leak. Easier for them to say "not our fault"



SmartRoofers said:


> I'm sorry to hear of the problems such as pine beetles and such, but NO manufacturer is going to warranty against forces of nature (which that is). This is not manufacturer specific.



What? 



SmartRoofers said:


> I have never seen a Duro-Last failure from the product, I have seen some terrible installations of not only Duro-Last but IB and Versico. I have replaced failed TPO roofs and EPDM...that is a fact.


I've seen 100's of squares of failed Duro-last, spider web cracking from the membrane being so brittle. I will agree, I've seen terrible installations of all kinds of roofs, Duro-last and spry foam just stick out in my mind.



SmartRoofers said:


> Just like buying a car, some people don't like it, that's fine. To say it's garbage product after being in business for 40+ years is a bit of hyperbole. IB and Duro-Last have been around for the same amount of time. Verisco, WeatherBond and other PVC manufacturers have not. TPO has been reformulated several times over past 20 years for failures on each formulation. You will not see a TPO roof anywhere with the current formulation older than 15 years, that is the epitome of an unproven product.


It's not just the fact I do not like it, it seems duro-last brain washes their installers to say how its the best thing every. I can say for a fact duro-last is a crap product and a cheap roof system I can't not say I've seen a quality install of duro-last in our area yet. I've seen 20+ year old TPO's. I've also seen one manufactures fail after 6 years. They paid for the new roof we installed.



SmartRoofers said:


> While Duro-Last may need to screen their contractors better, the product itself has a great track record and longevity rarely matched in Single-Ply industry.


So wrong again, I've heard from a bunch of different areas of the country that it doesn't hold up. 




SmartRoofers said:


> A Properly installed Duro-Last roof does not look any different than a roll good PVC roof.


Minus the breather vents because they never tear off the saggy walls and crappy details, specifically edges. 

So me a picture of a duro-last roof that has 4+ foot high walls, even 2 foot. I've never seen one look good at all. Couldn't even come close to a nice tight glued wall.


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## SmartRoofers

1985gt said:


> Do some more research. We are a authorized Versico, GAF (no elk on the single ply or BUR) Genflex, JM as well as others. Each and every one of them send out a tech rep when installing a manufacturers warrantied roof. In-fact some times they send them out during the roofing process if its a high profile or high warranty job.


Problem with all of those manufacturers is the fact there are a bunch of contractors that are not certified, sometimes not even licensed selling those products and installing them because anyone can order them and install them, no screening of contractors at all. I am sure if you go through the proper process and become certified, they will send a tech rep, as it should be, but due to the availability of those products through distribution, there is a ton of terrible jobs. You cannot even purchase IB or Duro-Last or Sarnafil without being certified and an inspection is not optional. That is a fact. Everybody and thier brother is out selling their kettles and toches and making a stab at PVC using Versico, Carlisle, Gaf and WeatherBond.

[/QUOTE]Sure you can buy the materials from a supply house, but you CAN'T get a warranty. Also Versico will not do any residential warrantys, I believe GAF is going to start or has started.[/QUOTE]

You can get a material warranty online, it's easy. If you want an NDL of any kind it will have to go through an inspection and certification, not saying they don't do that, I am sure they do. the fact remains anyone can order Versico and the others mentioned with no certification and install those products willy nilly.



[/QUOTE]Using a grip pull does not do anything for bagging walls, it makes the field to wall angle change tight but not the walls. Walls should be glued. Factory welded seams are fine, except you still have to weld over the fastening plates, a failed weld there will still leak. Easier for them to say "not our fault"[/QUOTE]

First of all, you do not have to weld over the fastening plates on a factory seam. the seams have tabs that are already welded on top and you pull the membrane back to expose the tabs, drop your plates and screws and flip it over the top of them and so on for the next factory seam. Secondly, Duro-Last can be fully adhered to the walls, any PVC wall that is fully Adhered (glued) is going to be a tight fit. that is an aesthetic choice as the wrinkles in a mechanically fastened wall does not affect performance or warranty (which is to be water tight and wind resistant). Sagging can occur with any of the products if mechanically fastened. The only time that this is a problem is if the wwalls are not fastened at the every 18" specifications and does not wrap over and down parapet cap, fastened off on fascia edge, with tight coping metal put over top of parapet cap. So, there's that. 




[/QUOTE]What?[/QUOTE]
This was in reference to another post about Duro-Last not covering damage caused by Pine Beetles.



[/QUOTE]I've seen 100's of squares of failed Duro-last, spider web cracking from the membrane being so brittle. I will agree, I've seen terrible installations of all kinds of roofs, Duro-last and spry foam just stick out in my mind.[/QUOTE]
100's of squares could be one roof, also what was the age of that roof? and how do you know the age of that roof? Also, when a PVC roof has reached it's peak life it will get brittle and crack no matter who the manufacturer is, thats why it is only a 20 year warranty in most cases. Installations are, obviously, a whole other problem.



[/QUOTE]It's not just the fact I do not like it, it seems duro-last brain washes their installers to say how its the best thing every. I can say for a fact duro-last is a crap product and a cheap roof system I can't not say I've seen a quality install of duro-last in our area yet. I've seen 20+ year old TPO's. I've also seen one manufactures fail after 6 years. They paid for the new roof we installed.[/QUOTE]
I'm a business owner, I don't get brainwashed by any manufacturer in my industry. I do my research and decide who I want to do business with based on many factors: Support, quality and standing behind products and warranties. Those are my first priorities, then I look at costs. No manufacturer "brainwashes" a company, unless that company wants to be "brainwashed". Any contractor worth anything will apply due dilligence in which products to "sell". You like TPO, I get it, but your statement that it's a "fact" that DL is a cheap product is patently false, it's an opinion and nothing more.



[/QUOTE]So wrong again, I've heard from a bunch of different areas of the country that it doesn't hold up.[/QUOTE]
Riiight. 




[/QUOTE]Minus the breather vents because they never tear off the saggy walls and crappy details, specifically edges.[/QUOTE]
Have no idea what you are trying to say here. 

[/QUOTE]So me a picture of a duro-last roof that has 4+ foot high walls, even 2 foot. I've never seen one look good at all. Couldn't even come close to a nice tight glued wall.[/QUOTE]

I put a 2 foot wall in my last post, it is mechanically fastened, not "glued" so it looks like any other parapet wall thats mechanically fastened.


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