# Unhappy customer



## That1guy (Dec 28, 2017)

Hey guys new to the site but looking for a little input. 
Recently completed a paving job and it passed city inspection and when I met with the customer he bagan to tell me he was unhappy with the work because there were a few "bird baths" in the asphalt. I know ideally we shoot for this to no occur but it happens from time to time. I discussed with the owner about possibly placing more mix and then sealing over the top to give it a uniform look at no cost to the customer to which he was ok with. 
So before 2 days before the additional work was to be done I hear from the customer stating to not do anymore work that he had met with other contractors who gave him prices to pave the driveway and included that they were all cheaper than the price we had agreed on and that he would be meeting with the city inspector about the work that had been done. 
Well long story short the job has now failed inspection because the home owner dug into the middle of the driveway and found a spot that was 1" thick where as the contract stated it would be 2". The customer sent me a text saying he would needs the asphalt removed but a certain date because he has hired another contractor to do the job. Now I take full responsibility for the low spot and have offered to cut out and remove the section because I know for sure the entire job was not done at 1". The customer has refused and said the other contractor will be doing the work. I asked for no money up front and am out thousands of dollars so my question is am I responsible to remove the asphalt or can the customer try and file suit? I have been in business for over 12 years and never had an issue and guarantee all my work for a 5 year period just not sure where to go from here.


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

What’s the contract say about disputes. Seems if it failed inspection you get a chance to remedy it. You failed to deliver on your own contract, do you really expect to get paid?

Edit; I wouldn’t lift another finger until he agrees in writing to pay you once you do the proper job. In other words, YOU tear it out and YOU do it right.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Does your contract give specifics as to "birdbaths", such as "not to exceed_____depth"?


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

I wouldn't tear it out if you're not given an opportunity to repair it. But you need to give him a new driveway not just a patch job.


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## That1guy (Dec 28, 2017)

WBailey1041 said:


> What’s the contract say about disputes. Seems if it failed inspection you get a chance to remedy it. You failed to deliver on your own contract, do you really expect to get paid?
> 
> Edit; I wouldn’t lift another finger until he agrees in writing to pay you once you do the proper job. In other words, YOU tear it out and YOU do it right.


I have no expectations of getting paid at this point my question is more about proceeding from here as in am I liable for the cost of removal of the asphalt when the customer has already contracted another company to do work and is refusing to let me even attempt to remedy my mistake.


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## That1guy (Dec 28, 2017)

TimNJ said:


> Does your contract give specifics as to "birdbaths", such as "not to exceed_____depth"?


No speciifics about bird baths and uneven surfaces.


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

That1guy said:


> WBailey1041 said:
> 
> 
> > What’s the contract say about disputes. Seems if it failed inspection you get a chance to remedy it. You failed to deliver on your own contract, do you really expect to get paid?
> ...


nope! But this is a contractor forum not a lawyer forum.


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## That1guy (Dec 28, 2017)

avenge said:


> I wouldn't tear it out if you're not given an opportunity to repair it. But you need to give him a new driveway not just a patch job.


He has refused to even discuss options he said he signed a contract with another contractor and the work is scheduled to be done Jan 5th and he wants existing asphalt removed


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## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

That1guy said:


> avenge said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't tear it out if you're not given an opportunity to repair it. But you need to give him a new driveway not just a patch job.
> ...


 make him pay for the original tear out first or give the man a price to tear it out.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

That1guy said:


> ........he wants existing asphalt removed


Sounds like a Change Order. :whistling


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

So before you started was there a previous driveway that you tore out? And then paved it? And he paid nothing so far?

If so. Then the customer is out no money correct? So then is the other new contractors bidding lower because he doesn't have to do removal?

My two cents is if the above is all true. Then I would let everything be the way it is now. No sense in helping the next guy save money for tear out. Chances are he will tell customer he has to charge more for tear out and new. Thus putting the price close to yours.

In other words you do two demo jobs and a driveway for free. The other contractor does half the work. And makes more. The homeowner gets a driveway for cheap because you paid for demo twice. Marry Xmas.

I would give the option to have him pay for original tear out . And then you'll take out new. Or you'll tear out new completely and redo. 1/2 deposit. And if pass with flying colors then pay balance. Otherwise let the new guy earn his cheap price.


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## That1guy (Dec 28, 2017)

Unger.const said:


> So before you started was there a previous driveway that you tore out? And then paved it? And he paid nothing so far?
> 
> If so. Then the customer is out no money correct? So then is the other new contractors bidding lower because he doesn't have to do removal?
> 
> ...


Previous driveway was chip rock and native soils which were removed and replaced with 4" of 3/4" aggregate base material per city standards.


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

WBailey1041 said:


> make him pay for the original tear out first or give the man a price to tear it out.


That was my thought. Did other guy bid cheaper because no tear out ? My guess was other guy said if first guy will tear out he will do for cheaper. Because if other guy bid for tear out the owner wouldn't be demanding removal before the 5th.


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## That1guy (Dec 28, 2017)

And yes correct customer has yet to come out of pocket a single penny. Entire Balance was due upon completion of work


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

That1guy said:


> Previous driveway was chip rock and native soils which were removed and replaced with 4" of 3/4" aggregate base material per city standards.


Did owner pay for for that removal. And new base?


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## That1guy (Dec 28, 2017)

Unger.const said:


> That1guy said:
> 
> 
> > Previous driveway was chip rock and native soils which were removed and replaced with 4" of 3/4" aggregate base material per city standards.
> ...


Negative I have paid for all material and trucking to this point. I did the excavation of original materials and have no charges or received any payments from the home owner.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

I'm not a paving guy, but if he hasn't paid anything yet then his side of the contract isn't fulfilled any more than yours is.

IOW, whatever is there now is better than it was before you started.....and it was free. If he don't like it, HE can pay the cheap guy to remove it and replace it.

On the other hand.........I'm not a lawyer, so..... 

EDIT: Oh and by the way, change your contract. Always, always, ALWAYS keep the money ahead of the work. Add payment points into your contract. After tearout 33% / after paving 33% / after inspection 33%...whatever. Just get SOME money before the job is done and your bargaining power is gone.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

paver i always used ALWAYS stringlined the sub base. either i put it to grade, or had to pay him to. i wonder how the owner knew "where" to dig down and find it 1" deep? were there multiple test holes, or just the one?


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## That1guy (Dec 28, 2017)

jproffer said:


> I'm not a paving guy, but if he hasn't paid anything yet then his side of the contract isn't fulfilled any more than yours is.
> 
> IOW, whatever is there now is better than it was before you started.....and it was free. If he don't like it, HE can pay the cheap guy to remove it and replace it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for you input on larger projects I usually stipulate some form of down payment, but smaller jobs such as this one it really is more hassle than it is worth and like I stated earlier in my 12 years of working I have yet to run into an issue. I know I should always cover my ass my mistake and will change the contract from here out, but honestly I am more concerned with the harm to my reputation than the lost money on the project and am certainly not wanting to lose even more money on it be it law suit for removal of the asphalt.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

how many square feet we talking?


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## That1guy (Dec 28, 2017)

dayexco said:


> paver i always used ALWAYS stringlined the sub base. either i put it to grade, or had to pay him to. i wonder how the owner knew "where" to dig down and find it 1" deep? were there multiple test holes, or just the one?


That is what has me at a loss. I take full responsiblility for the asphalt not meeting requirements but curious why the home owner and inspector decided to dig into the middle of the driveway. As I stated In the beginning the driveway passed the original inspection which is just a visual I have never seen or would I expect an inspector to dig into the middle of fresh mix to check for depth. 
I get the feeling the home owner was doing everything he could to make sure the driveway failed inspection because it is stated in my contract that jobs are done to meet inspection standards. If he got it to fail he could then refuse to pay me and hire the other cheaper contractor.


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## That1guy (Dec 28, 2017)

dayexco said:


> how many square feet we talking?


Just under 1800


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

That1guy said:


> Just under 1800


loader/skiddy/dump truck, you're out of there in a morning...do it and get it over and done with.


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## Jinglepot (Dec 27, 2017)

So he thinks he is going to get your excavating and base for free. Can you reuse the 4" base? I don't know about paving but do landscaping. To remove the gravel would be close to $8-1000 and install and compact 22 yards at 4" base another ~$12-1400. if he lets you finish the job and can just tear out and re pave, and get paid you are probably making out better than just abandoning it now. I have a feeling this guy isn't the type to be reasonable though. His expectations were too high and you should of made your standards clear beforehand and you lost his trust though. I hope you can figure something out and get some money


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Tear out the asphalt and sue him for cost to do the base. Better yet, get payment for the base before you tear out the top coat. And it gets done on your schedule not your competitors.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

I'm not a lawyer either but have watched Judge Judy. 
My guess is the h/o dug into the low spot. But it's customary to give the business a chance to correct an error. He's denying you that opportunity so the ball is in his court. If he had skin in the game (deposit) he wouldn't be so carefree about it. 

I didn't notice your location, seems late in the year for paving work. Wouldn't it be possible in warmer weather to pave another layer on top?


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

Expectations too high? He expected 2" and got 1. Half of what he planned on paying for. 

He may have lucked out and found a thin spot in his search, but still not what owner was expecting. 

Owner very well could be a dick head, but were this me, I'd try to remediate, or get out of the situation as clean publicity wise as I could, eat a few bucks, labor. Whatever. . 

Just walking away in the long road will not be a good thing. 

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## That1guy (Dec 28, 2017)

RangoWA said:


> I'm not a lawyer either but have watched Judge Judy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm in Northern California while it's cold it's still possible to pave, but I had pretty much shut down paving project for the season but the home owner insisted it be done ASAP and against my better judgement we did it anyways. 
I've tried discussing possible fixes and I am now cautious about throwing more money at it as I'm not positive payment will be made because of his unwillingness to work with me on a solution


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

2" of asphalt is not a very good driveway. What's the guy drive a Prius? Anything heavier than that and that asphalt won't last long.

In my neck of the woods, 5" is pretty standard for residential, 3" asphalt base, 2" asphalt top coat.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

tgeb said:


> 2" of asphalt is not a very good driveway. What's the guy drive a Prius? Anything heavier than that and that asphalt won't last long.
> 
> In my neck of the woods, 5" is pretty standard for residential, 3" asphalt base, 2" asphalt top coat.


Here they do 1-1/2” and 1-1/2”. I’d think if he put an 1-1/2” top coat all over he’d be good to go. Get it in writing and make the ho put all the money in escrow.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

RangoWA said:


> I'm not a lawyer either but have watched Judge Judy.


Judge judy said if someone is living in your building with no rental contract they can be thrown out by the police for trespassing. 

My dad bought a 7 unit apartment building and one unit had illegal mexican immigrants in it. It was never the same people there, there was always people in that unit but never the same ones. Police wouldnt do anything and courthouse wouldnt do anything because we couldnt fill out the form because nobody had names, drivers licenses #. Anything you needed on the form and the stupid women in the courthouse refused to except the form that way. 

If it was me I would either leave it like it is and let they guy win and move on with your life or dig it out with your gravel. If you leave it he could have someone put another layer on and get a lice thick driveway cheap. 

If your going to waste your time and not get paid I would tell him you will leave it and take it out jan 4th that way he will have a driveway until his new one is in. That makes you look good and you can haul out your gravel and not leave him any time to think about other ways to screw you over like demanding you bring the gravel back.


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## Stryker1-1 (Dec 25, 2017)

Get your lawyer to send him a registered letter stating your position 

Generally people's attitudes change once lawyers are involved 

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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

Michaeljp86 said:


> Judge judy said if someone is living in your building with no rental contract they can be thrown out by the police for trespassing.
> 
> My dad bought a 7 unit apartment building and one unit had illegal mexican immigrants in it. It was never the same people there, there was always people in that unit but never the same ones. Police wouldnt do anything and courthouse wouldnt do anything because we couldnt fill out the form because nobody had names, drivers licenses #. Anything you needed on the form and the stupid women in the courthouse refused to except the form that way.


Don't blame the cops, they are handcuffed by department policy and department policy is dictated by political appointees. Blame the voters for giving them the power.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Here's my take.

1) Do you care about what this guy will say about you to others?

2) What do you want this guy to say to others about your service?

Once you answer those you will know what to do.

What I would do is:

Take a ride over to his house and discuss options. cut up a couple other areas to determine depth. If it was just that one spot, you win. If it wasn't, he wins.

If you win, I would tell him that you will repair the low spot and expect payment in full for the job (You can discount if you wish for not doing a good job in the first place).

If he wins, tell him you will tear out and lay a drive to the proper thickness and expect payment in full (again, you can discount for not doing a good him in the first place), or you can offer to show up ready to tear out his drive if he has a cashiers check for the original tear out and laying of the new base.


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## That1guy (Dec 28, 2017)

Thanks guys for all of the great input gonna try one last time to get the customer to let me try and fix my mistake before I wash my hands of it and cut my losses


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Here's my take.
> 
> 1) Do you care about what this guy will say about you to others?
> 
> 2) What do you want this guy to say to others about your service.


He might become known as "That1guy".


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## Stryker1-1 (Dec 25, 2017)

That1guy said:


> Thanks guys for all of the great input gonna try one last time to get the customer to let me try and fix my mistake before I wash my hands of it and cut my losses


I would say don't walk away as much as a bad reputation can hurt you so can one as a push over.

You will be amazed how quickly a letter from your lawyer will get him to think about letting you provide a fix

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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm not a paver, but I am in Northern California, so I know a couple of things about California Law.

First, I don't believe the customer can fire you and hire a different Contractor. You must be given a reasonable opportunity to fix the defect. 

DO NOT WALK AWAY! Period. If you do, you lose. 

At this point, if the customer refuses to allow you to repair this, _they_ are in breach in contract. If you walk away, you are in breach of contract.

I don't know if 2" is a good job or not, but if the contract said 2", and there are places where it is 1", you need to fix it. It doesn't matter how they found out, if it's true, you are responsible. 

If it goes to court, the Judge is going to know less than I do about paving, and he/she will be looking at National Standards. Make sure the job is up to National Standards. 

In California, we are not allowed to be "ahead" in the job at any time. It is commonly suggested here, and in just about everywhere else it is legal I guess, but it is absolutely illegal here. What you can do, is get a down payment, and schedule progress payments. You can also get payments when materials are delivered.

Also, if a customer refuses payment, and you remove materials that are already placed/installed, it is theft on your part. If you pickup materials that were delivered to the jobsite, but not installed, you can go and pick them up.

Make sure your contracts are up to date, and that you dot your "I's" and cross your "T's". If you don't have the proper disclosures, you lose the right to lien, and you will almost certainly lose in court.

Good luck. I hope this helps. It might be wise to consult an attorney, as distasteful as that is. 




Delta


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## BattleBornNV (Jul 27, 2017)

I second Deltas position. 

Thickness of paved asphalt is not standardized for the nation. It’s based upon geotechnical observations, recommendations, design of the section and mix design. I frequently use a single 2” lift for private roadways, down to 34 degrees and rising. 
Paved week before Xmas here in norther Nevada. Cold. 🤙🏻


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

My concern would be the "bird baths" and the picky customer. Im no expert on laying asphalt but if its hard or impossible to eliminate the chance of a bird bath then I would be worried if you fix it he will never be happy until it ripped out and redone. Then if there is more birdbaths he still wont want to pay you and now you did 2 driveways for free and he will be running around town talking about how that jackass did his driveway twice and he had to have it ripped out and done by someone else. 

If this guy is impossible to please your just adding fuel to his fire.


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## B.Johnson (Sep 17, 2016)

AustinDB said:


> if it's 1" low in that one area, how about agreeing to an additional 1" to 1-1/2" across the board for the sake of getting it done quickly and easily?
> 
> Does the amount of asphalt you had delivered cover that 1800sqft at a depth of 2"? I'm guessing you guys have a rule of thumb that takes into account it's finished depth after compaction right?


This is what I would want as a customer, and I would gladly escrow the money until completed. A patch job wouldn't cut it.

On a side note, I used to own a flatwork company. I had a customer send me a registered letter stating that he was going to tear out a basement floor and have it replaced because he wasn't happy with it. By the time I got the letter it had already been torn out and replaced. I met with him and basically laughed at him and told him he was crazy if he thought that I was going to pay for the replacement floor as no court would ever agree to that. The worst part for him was that I would have made it right no matter what the problem. But I sure as hell wasn't going to do anything without being able to see it for myself, and I sure as hell wasn't going to pay someone else to do it.


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## JenniferTemple (Oct 30, 2011)

I learned MANY, Many, years ago, a good contract must cover ALL possibilities. Mine always said if HO is not happy I get to do any re-dos and all possible areas of complaints were covered. Materials always had to be paid up front. As the HO signed up I gave a verbal warning: " When I am finished you owe me every dime! If you are not happy or there is a problem, I fix it and you still owe me every dime! What we have agreed to on this contract I do, what is not here I do not do. Please read it carefully, if any changes are required we will update the contract." They always had a least 10 days to think it over. Once I start the work the contract is NOT Negotiable. I might note here, I am so nutty about no one getting my labor free that around the paint shop it was almost a joke. I would go out of pocket to insure that anyone using my services knew payment was not optional, I always get paid! (And I always did, no one has ever gotten my work free unless I chose to do them a favor and go above and beyond as a gift) I am a painter and far to many HOs think they can stiff painters. BUT after all of that, I have only done one call back for a complaint. I always do my "best work" and have never once uttered the phrase "That's good enough."


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

JenniferTemple said:


> I learned MANY, Many, years ago, a good contract must cover ALL possibilities. Mine always said if HO is not happy I get to do any re-dos and all possible areas of complaints were covered.


I learned long ago that some people are never happy and it had nothing to do with me. I have done pretty good over the years but a few people were trouble and part of the learning process of weeding some folks out.


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## JenniferTemple (Oct 30, 2011)

RangoWA said:


> I learned long ago that some people are never happy and it had nothing to do with me. I have done pretty good over the years but a few people were trouble and part of the learning process of weeding some folks out.


Yup! spot on! Life gets a whole lot easier once you have established a good stable of reliable HOs! But at the start, most of us were just taking any work we could get. It took me about 3 years to really get established and now I am really fussy about who I will work for. If I smell trouble "I am solidly booked for the next 6 months!" And I get a lot more expensive if I smell trouble! That seems to keep me out of those places. :whistling


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

That1guy said:


> He has refused to even discuss options he said he signed a contract with another contractor and the work is scheduled to be done Jan 5th and he wants existing asphalt removed


Hope you told him get busy then


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

That1guy said:


> Again thanks for all of the helpful replies. The driveway is done to city spec and they require 4" of aggregate base and 2" of HMA minimally. 2" is pretty standard for residential drives in this area. Like stated above California laws don't allow us to ask for more that 12% down and it's part of the reason I forgo even taking down payment on smaller jobs because it's simply not enough money to matter.
> Like I said I take full responsibility for the asphalt not being the proper thickness but as I went and put eyes on the job I can see the area in question is directly in the middle of a birdbath where the screed possibly dipped and wasn't caught in time. I will be consulting with a lawyer on where do go from here. The ball is in the customers court as of now I won't be tearing it out and will lay the option of capping the driveway out to him but like I said he has work scheduled to begin Jan 5th so if he proceeds with another contractor we shall see what happens


I'd be there no matter what on the 5th blocking the driveway. Inform the guy it is illegal to not let you fix the error. When the next guy shows up find out if he is licensed if not record it and call the proper authorities.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

Just out of curiosity whats going on? today is the 4th and the other guy is supposed to be there tomorrow.


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

Michaeljp86 said:


> Just out of curiosity whats going on? today is the 4th and the other guy is supposed to be there tomorrow.


He can't talk now. He is working late demoing the drive for tommorrow........just kidding I don't know but wondered too


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

Maybe he threw down with the HO and is in jail. :laughing:


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

That1guy said:


> Hey guys new to the site but looking for a little input.
> Recently completed a paving job and it passed city inspection and when I met with the customer he bagan to tell me he was unhappy with the work because there were a few "bird baths" in the asphalt. I know ideally we shoot for this to no occur but it happens from time to time. I discussed with the owner about possibly placing more mix and then sealing over the top to give it a uniform look at no cost to the customer to which he was ok with.
> So before 2 days before the additional work was to be done I hear from the customer stating to not do anymore work that he had met with other contractors who gave him prices to pave the driveway and included that they were all cheaper than the price we had agreed on and that he would be meeting with the city inspector about the work that had been done.
> Well long story short the job has now failed inspection because the home owner dug into the middle of the driveway and found a spot that was 1" thick where as the contract stated it would be 2". The customer sent me a text saying he would needs the asphalt removed but a certain date because he has hired another contractor to do the job. Now I take full responsibility for the low spot and have offered to cut out and remove the section because I know for sure the entire job was not done at 1". The customer has refused and said the other contractor will be doing the work. I asked for no money up front and am out thousands of dollars so my question is am I responsible to remove the asphalt or can the customer try and file suit? I have been in business for over 12 years and never had an issue and guarantee all my work for a 5 year period just not sure where to go from here.


Well...............we're waiting.......what happened?


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

Messaged him. 


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