# Have a Moral Dilemma.



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Heres the story and Im sort of stuck on the right way to go with this one.

A good friend, actually was my best friend all through HS and up until recently when I had to seperate myself from him is out of work. He worked as a union roofer until late 2008, where he got laid off for the winter. During the time he was laid off, he got involved with drugs and eventually caught by the police and some how only got off with serving probation. His company never hired him back but his union hall found another place for him to work for a few months but when they were done they laid him off again.

Now, Ive done side jobs in the past with this guy and see him outside of work. Me, along with all our close friends agree that he is still involved in this stuff. (No one asks to trade a gift card for cash at 11 pm at night or asks for 20 dollars the night before an unemployment check comes). Everyone has tried everything they could do to help him but he does not seem to get it yet. He has been sued by credit card companies, car has been repossed, just kicked out of his parents house (nearly 26) and I believe he has no future and needs help getting things turned around.

Thats where I come in. He asked me for a job once we pick the work back up. I do not care what you do on your personal time but drugs and alcohol are NOT tolerated on the jobsite. I know from doing the side jobs with him he spends a lot of time on the phone talking to his "friend". End of 2008, I helped him do a job for his aunt, actually I ended up doing most of it and have not got paid and I wont. 

As a friend, hes a great guy. As a worker he tries but is slower. I know the foreman of the company he worked for and he tells me he catches him hanging out in the trailer occasionally and is never on time. We have a policy if you're late more than 5 minutes 3 times out of the year your fired. I dont want to hire him, just to have to fire him and strain our friendship although most of it is in the past.

Would you guys take the risk and try to be the one who can help him out by having him work in a drug-free environment? I think he may believe that I will cut him slack because of our friendship but I wont. Basically, I dont want to be the resource for him to get drug money.

Any advice on what some you would do or have done will be appreciated. Thanks.


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## cabinet runner (Nov 11, 2008)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Heres the story and Im sort of stuck on the right way to go with this one.
> 
> A good friend, actually was my best friend all through HS and up until recently when I had to seperate myself from him is out of work.
> Any advice on what some you would do or have done will be appreciated. Thanks.


 
Hired friends before some worked out some didn't . Bottom line is I hire help to make my workload easier and most importantly to make me money . 
This guy is going to do neither for your company . Now if you want to be some sort of welfare for this friend go for it . Just don't be pissed when you realize that is what you are doing because it sounds like you already know the guy will bring no benefit to your company and only take from it .


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Same issues here Bam. I fired 2 brothers and refused to rehire them. We're still friends. Well, one is, other is dead.
And a nephew. He'll be back in jail soon. I have several friends that want work. I feel none are compatible and tell them I won't hire them. Still friends with some.
Bottom lines. You'll fire him and hurt the so-so relationship more than if you don't hire him. If he doesn't understand the situation, he never will. Who need friends like that.
When he, becasue of being drugged, or peroccupied thinking of his next hit, causes injury to somebody, of just costs a client their home, YOU'LL be holding the bag as he blissfully wanders around looking for another fix.

My brother is on the wagon and I use him at times, but it's very arm's lenght. All opinions are in the open and he knows I could take a hammer to his head at a moment's notice.

Do you want me to tell you how I feel about this issue?


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

I sent you a PM


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

Never, never, never work for or with family or friends. Never. Ever.


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## jimmys (May 1, 2009)

*nope*

Sounds like he would pretty soon violate your work policies. If you reprimand or fire him, you're the bad guy. If you don't and the other guys know it (and they will), you're the bad guy big time. If you don't hire him, you're only the bad guy for a little while. You sound like you know this.
The easy way to say is you don't have enough work to hire him. I'd probably add something frank like "things are tight right now and I can't risk something going wrong, which it has often in the past. I'd like to take the chance to help you out but each job has to work out just right in this troubled economy, blah blah." 
So if you have the urge to help him, help him by telling him the truth about why he can't come to work until he's straightened out. It's a tough situation, but I don't see any way this works out to your advantage.
Jim


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## galla35 (Feb 27, 2009)

I agree everyone deserives second chances but ya know if your not gonna help yourself then im not gonna help you my .02


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Stay away.

I started out with a partner who was a friend. He had substance abuse issues. Put on a good show for about 4 months then started to slip.

Thought I was ripping him off when it came time to remit taxes or pay WCB.

I ended up buying him out of the business ($34 was all he had left in the biz)

No more friends in my business.


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## marc (Mar 18, 2005)

Not only would I NOT hire this guy. He would also be off my friend list real fast. You're only as good as the people you associate with. IMO


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## galla35 (Feb 27, 2009)

marc said:


> Not only would I NOT hire this guy. He would also be off my friend list real fast. You're only as good as the people you associate with. IMO



that is very very true.. family and friends and business just doesnt mix IMO and experience


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

You're serious? Have you read what you wrote?



BamBamm5144 said:


> he got involved with drugs and eventually caught by the police and some how only got off with serving probation.
> 
> Me, along with all our close friends agree that he is still involved in this stuff. (No one asks to trade a gift card for cash at 11 pm at night or asks for 20 dollars the night before an unemployment check comes).
> 
> ...


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Have you come across the term 'enabling'? If you give this guy any work then that is what you will be doing.

The only person who can help him is himself, and until he hits the bottom he isn't even going to think about trying to get better.

Make it clear that you won't have anything to do with him until he has been clean for six months, then don't let him anywhere near you until he has achieved just that.


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

if he is using now, your giving him a job isn't going to get him straight. He'll need to hit bottom like so many of the others, until he does and has his very own epiphany, you won't be helping him or your business. 

if you want to help the guy, rehab in some way shape or form. have a heart to heart with him and explain that after a 60 or 90 day program and regular AA or NA meetings he'll be ready for a shot with your company.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

72chevy4x4 said:


> have a heart to heart with him and explain that after a 60 or 90 day program and regular AA or NA meetings he'll be ready for a shot with your company.


That's a good way to go. Put the ball in his court. If he is ready to change he will take you up on it. If not you know what the outcome already would have been had you hired him.


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## JonM (Nov 1, 2007)

I think you already know the answer to your question and you are just looking for confirmation here. :thumbsup:


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## RefleX (Dec 17, 2009)

Don't all roofers do drugs? ..

Just kidding...


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## CarpenterRN (Dec 3, 2009)

john elliott said:


> Have you come across the term 'enabling'? If you give this guy any work then that is what you will be doing.
> 
> The only person who can help him is himself, and until he hits the bottom he isn't even going to think about trying to get better.
> 
> Make it clear that you won't have anything to do with him until he has been clean for six months, then don't let him anywhere near you until he has achieved just that.


These were my thoughts as well. You can't help this guy as much as you may want to or think you can.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

JonM said:


> I think you already know the answer to your question and you are just looking for confirmation here. :thumbsup:


 
True.

Thanks for all the input.


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## eXpatRioteX (Jan 26, 2007)

72chevy4x4 said:


> if he is using now, your giving him a job isn't going to get him straight. He'll need to hit bottom like so many of the others, until he does and has his very own epiphany, you won't be helping him or your business.
> 
> if you want to help the guy, rehab in some way shape or form. have a heart to heart with him and explain that after a 60 or 90 day program and regular AA or NA meetings he'll be ready for a shot with your company.


 
I know you want to help your friend, but its impossible to fix these people, they have to fix themselves. NA is an essential first step.

If he can get into a program, then you can try to give him a shot, but i would ask him to attend meetings everynight, and provide signed slips showing that he's still attending, just like the courts around here require. If he stops going, he stops being an employee. Addiction does not have an expiration date.

This is pretty much the same deal i gave my own brother. It didnt work out so well for us.


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## zkorpionx (Nov 25, 2009)

Sadly ,when is coming down to business you have to think first with your pocket then with your heart ...You are not a benefactor of humanity and you can't command everybody else's life ,I got horrible experiences with relatives and friends in my business ,so since 2008 NO one in my company is related to me in any way ,Except for working professionaly and with respect to each other.No one will love you or appreciate you more than yourself in this life ,so keep it tight and close .....


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

galla35 said:


> I agree everyone deserives second chances but ya know if your not gonna help yourself then im not gonna help you my .02



Exactly. I been clean & sober for over 25 years now & I assure you, bailing this guy out will not be helping him. I assure you, if he's doing dope, your friendship will be the last thing this guy cares about. He'll use you for whatever he can get out of ya & move onto the next target. Best way to help an addict is help him get bad enough that he decides it's time to get professional help.


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## carpenter72 (Dec 6, 2009)

I've dealt with drug addicts in the past, and the risk of them getting hurt on your job, coming down from a high or actually being high on the job is gonna kill your ability to concentrate and do your projects right. You dont want to pay out on a workmans comp claim. In this economy you cant afford that. Keep this guy as a friend, just let him know your just not busy enough to use him right now. Too many headaches!


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

something else comes to mind about a person who is using; with my experience, the person lied to me up and down, side to side and even though I 'thought' he had come clean, everything was a lie. years later I sat down with this person and he confided in me some of the scams that were going on...it was unbelievable!


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Heres the story and Im sort of stuck on the right way to go with this one.
> 
> A good friend, actually was my best friend all through HS and up until recently when I had to seperate myself from him is out of work. He worked as a union roofer until late 2008, where he got laid off for the winter. During the time he was laid off, he got involved with drugs and eventually caught by the police and some how only got off with serving probation. His company never hired him back but his union hall found another place for him to work for a few months but when they were done they laid him off again.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't take a chance on hiring him.


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## Roofer Dan (Dec 21, 2009)

if ya ask me, it depends. lots of facters here. 

first of all, is he qualified to fill a spot on your crew? when ever i've got a crew going, everyone has a specific job (laborer, set-up, shingler, leader). you mention that he's a union guy. at least around here, that means he's a commercial (read: flat) guy. pretty much worthless on a shingle job. also, what's he gonna do when he gets a call from the hall. leave you stuck? 

you also said his car got repo'ed. does this mean he ain't got any transportation to and from work? what about a valid DL? 

he's also on paper. for how long? how often does he gotta report? weekly? monthly? any other conditions he'll have to satisfy that'll cause him to miss time?

what kind of money is he looking to get? he can't expect union scale to fill a laborer's position.

he got tossed out of the house. that mean he's homeless? what about personal hygiene?

i've been in this spot many times, and will likely be here many more. i usually sit down with them, get answers to all of my questions, and make a decision. if i put them to work, they fully understand that while "on the clock" i don't have ANY friends.

ya never know, but sleeping under a bridge, bathing in the river, walking to work, in order to hump shingles for $10 an hour just may be "rock bottom". 

if i did put him to work, you can bet he'd pay me what he owed me for that side job!


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

When HE gets sick and tired of being sick and tired, then HE will be ready to take the appropriate steps towards recovery.

Until then, what you see out of him is only a glimpse of what the reality is. 

If he would be willing to Honestly try to utilize a 12 step program, then and only then would I offer him a chance with Lots of supervision, but even then, I have given newbie program members a "2nd Chance", only to get burned way too often. 

HE is responsible for picking up the pieces of his life that is shattered and disfunctional, not any family or friends.

Ed


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## wheeler (Feb 8, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Would you guys take the risk and try to be the one who can help him out by having him work in a drug-free environment?


my brother is a carpenter. master mechanic in every respect. we're blood. would my brother offer to be a doctor if i were seriously ill? would i ask? what would i ask?

me, i'd ask a friend for a ride to the hospital if i can't muster the strength to get there myself. there is no question i would get one, heart felt, and as quick as they could get to me.


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

wheeler said:


> my brother is a carpenter. master mechanic in every respect. we're blood. would my brother offer to be a doctor if i were seriously ill? would i ask? what would i ask?
> 
> me, i'd ask a friend for a ride to the hospital if i can't muster the strength to get there myself. there is no question i would get one, heart felt, and as quick as they could get to me.


I'm finding that a bit hard to follow. Are you saying what you would do if you were a drug addict?


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Well, after seeing him last night on New Years Eve, and the decisions he made, I reconfirmed the decision I already made. Now all I have left to do is tell him that it isnt going to work out and the reasons why.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Roofer Dan said:


> if ya ask me, it depends. lots of facters here.
> 
> first of all, is he qualified to fill a spot on your crew? when ever i've got a crew going, everyone has a specific job (laborer, set-up, shingler, leader). you mention that he's a union guy. at least around here, that means he's a commercial (read: flat) guy. pretty much worthless on a shingle job. also, what's he gonna do when he gets a call from the hall. leave you stuck?
> 
> ...


Those seven words speak volumes about you. And I mean that in the most positive way. You sound like the kind of man I would be proud to buy a beer.

Far too often we assume the sanctimonious position of martyr or saintly benefactor in that we graciously offer "a second chance". We do this as though we have somehow done a great thing, and this lowly person we have so "honored" with an outpouring of our magnanimous generosity should fall on their knees in gratitude.

I may be in the minority here, but... I've made mistakes in my time. And I still do. Just ask my wife or anyone who knows me.

What does that mean? It means I was not simply given a "second chance" somewhere along the line, and that wonderful opportunity forever eliminated any tendency to screw up. Nope, it's still with me. And I do still manage to foul up things quite royally from time to time.

We need to understand that this famous "second chance" is highly over rated. It is basically a decision *we* have made to appease something *we* may be feeling inside. Of course the desperate recipient is going to often jump right on it as a means of making a few woefully needed bucks. Who can blame them? Just because we put some sort of grand worth on this "second chance" we are handing them, doesn't mean they have yet reached the point of understanding what it means or how to effectively accept and utilize it.

It may well be that they honestly DO intend and hope to do better. And perhaps they actually TRY... for as long as they can hold out. So how are we to respond to that? To their failed attempt?

We too often take the attitude that "I tried to help the bum... and look how I got burned!"

Well, you didn't get burned at all. (That is not if you were smart and didn't give him a high position of responsibility in your company.) You simply experienced some disappointment in yet another worker who didn't rise to your expectations. If the truth were known, your pride probably was wounded more than anything. The one who REALLY got burned was the guy who fell back into the mire of his addictions... AGAIN.

Don't you think these guys have the same basic feelings deep down inside that any of the rest of the human race does? Of course they do. They feel. They hurt. They just don't know how to beat it.

I think we just might find it within ourselves to view this whole thing in a little different light if we could remember to consider this one thing.

You and I have no idea how many times this sorry guy standing in front of us has tried and tried and tried before. We know nothing of his inward feelings of humiliation and shame. And, above all, we can't begin to imagine how far (and through what possible lifetime of pains and tragedies) this person may have struggled to reach the point where we see him today.

Some of you know that I deal with these kinds of guys on a daily basis. And the one thing it has taught me is to never forget the words I have posted right above my computer monitor...

"There, but for the grace of God, go I."

None of us are "better"......... Just more fortunate.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

john elliott said:


> I'm finding that a bit hard to follow. Are you saying what you would do if you were a drug addict?


Well spoken, John. The perspective makes all the difference. :thumbsup:


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## cabinet runner (Nov 11, 2008)

Willie T said:


> You and I have no idea how many times this sorry guy standing in front of us has tried and tried and tried before. We know nothing of his inward feelings of humiliation and shame. And, above all, we can't begin to imagine how far (and through what possible lifetime of pains and tragedies) this person may have struggled to reach the point where we see him today.
> Some of you know that I deal with these kinds of guys on a daily basis. And the one thing it has taught me is to never forget the words I have posted right above my computer monitor...
> "There, but for the grace of God, go I."
> None of us are "better"......... Just more fortunate.


 
Wow , Amazing post . I'm glad I started my afternoon reading it . 
It's nice to know in this rat race society I live in that an attitude like this exists . To bad it so rare today .


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Willie, you sound like someone who has first hand knowledge. My hat's off to you man. Too many people have very little understanding of the disease that plagues many of us because drugs & alcohol are so socially acceptable. What some of you can pick up or put down with ease, some of us do not have that luxury. One's too many & a river full is never enough. Even after all this time, I have no doubt I could be back in the same shoes as the man described in the original post. All it'll take is one, drink, one toke, one pill & the rat race can begin all over again. I've asked thousands of times, why does it take for some of us & not for others. I still don't have the answer, except, "but for the grace of God, go I" & I thank him for that graciousness every single day.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

The monkey comes in many guises. As an 'enlightened' society, we accept some, shun others, deny many even exist. Yet there lives within each of us, our own personal demon. A struggle that we sometimes fail to recognize as even real, let alone dangerous.

It matters little what the monster we fear looks like. What counts is that we learn to understand and survive.

And that we are not alone in the fight, nor that we leave another alone on _*their*_ battlefield.

Stand shoulder to shoulder with someone - either helping or being helped - and you will never again wonder at that Biblical passage about giving another a drink of water... or clothing their nakedness... or visiting them in prison. You will understand the soul's thirst, our frightening nakedness, and the many kinds of personal prisons.


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

very nice Willie, very nice :thumbsup:

hats off to those who are active in the AA/NA community reaching out those who are reaching up. A friend from church left a well to do bank job to run an local shelter/house for guys making the transition back into the community.


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## cbfx3 (Aug 25, 2009)

Giving him a job will give him the chance to buy drugs more frequently and give you major headaches.. If you are down with that then go ahead and hire him!

A job will just keep him high for a bit longer until he either dies, goes to prison, or decides to quit


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

Helping out tweakers is a recipe for disaster. It's not like the dude or Betty who has a joint after work or a tendency to bend the elbow too much. Tweakers get all wound up and blunder around, they're spaced out, when they score they're nipping away on the job, they're jacking their jaws, always on the phone babbling with their girlfriend or their connection, you end up having to restrain yourself from decking them, it's always one pain in the ass after another and they're usually a bunch of crybabies to top it off. 

One good thing about the experience is after dealing with people like that getting someone who's halfway normal is the greatest thing in the world.

The worst thing is when someone you know and care about has fallen into that spider web and had their life juices sucked out of them. You don't see 'em for a year or two, they show up at the office or your home and the person you knew is gone, replaced by a toothless, sunken jawed, grey skinned apparition. You talk with them and after a moment realize there's nothing there, the drugs consumed them, sucked their soul and spirit dry and left this dessicated husk of a living being. I'd love to see a bounty put on meth dealers and manufacturers............................


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## steel baron (Jan 1, 2010)

*Just my opinion*



BamBamm5144 said:


> Heres the story and Im sort of stuck on the right way to go with this one.
> 
> A good friend, actually was my best friend all through HS and up until recently when I had to seperate myself from him is out of work. He worked as a union roofer until late 2008, where he got laid off for the winter. During the time he was laid off, he got involved with drugs and eventually caught by the police and some how only got off with serving probation. His company never hired him back but his union hall found another place for him to work for a few months but when they were done they laid him off again.
> 
> ...


 If you are really this guys friend, you care more about his future, right?
I would tell him, I will hire you in a second, once you pass a drug test for me, and it's because of safety. You tell him you don't want him getting hurt, Lay it on the line, and be a friend.
Hope this helps


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

There is no moral dilemma here, none. 

Your responsibilities include:
1) your customer to the extent of your contract
2) yourself and your family
3) your business and its reputation
4) current employees

You have no more responsibility for friends than you do for general humanity. If helping another would negatively impact your responsibility to your customer, yourself and family, your business, or your current employees, you can't do it.


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## CSinc. (Nov 7, 2009)

id agree with the majority on this one.friends and family dont mix with biz.i dont know why they just dont.i wish it worked that way.i hired my brother and i knew he got high.thought i could help but didnt.had a drill dropped on my head still thought i could help.told him to take a week off and get his head together.he went and filed for unemployment.if you know the dude gets high you cant hire him.if you know hes unreliable and does substandard work why put yourself through the headache.you cant take the chance cause youll get burnt or someone will get hurt.not to mention all the problems it will cause outside of work.you know what to do.


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## Roofer Dan (Dec 21, 2009)

RefleX said:


> Don't all roofers do drugs? ..
> 
> Just kidding...


in my experience, pretty much, with a few exceptions.

true story:

in the early/mid 90's i was the residential foreman for Branch Roofing. in late summer of '96 the company was having their most profitable year to date. four figure profit sharing bonuses for all foreman and both supers. 

ten days before christmas that same year, there was a meeting called. "all crews must attend". at that time, we had six full crews running strong. five commercial and my shingle crew. about 45-50 guys in the field.

i thought we were fixing to get our christmas bonuses.

then these two white RVs pulled into the parking lot. they piss tested everyone in the company. zero notice. it wasn't pretty.

after the smoke cleared (funny huh), i was the only experienced roofer left. there were also 5 commercial laborers. we also lost an estimater and one of the office girls.

seems that they got a better WC rate by instituting a new drug policy. 

i took my entire crew one mile down the road and got them hired by another contracter. i was leading them two weeks later.

Branch closed their doors a couple years later. seems they couldn't "maintain" their "drug free workplace". couldn't find enough guys.

at least around here, any ROOFER who is any good (and a lot that ain't), who is also a "responsible adult" is already out on their own.

so i pose the question to ya'll: exactly, where the hell are all ya'll finding these drug free roofers?


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## Schmidt & Co (Jun 2, 2008)

I will bend over backward to help a "friend in need". I have taken family members, friends and employees to AA meetings. There's also something to be said about working with a sober crew!

But "buisness is buisness" and any one person can not be alowed to bring the company down just to "help a man in need". I will NOT let any _one person_ comprimise my, and my employees livelihood......


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## user56166 (Jan 2, 2010)

If you like the guy as a friend, keep business is business, friendships then stay friendships, simple as that! the guys seems to have proved he is a flake. Run from employing the guy.


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## buddy110 (Oct 3, 2009)

john elliott said:


> Have you come across the term *'enabling'*? If you give this guy any work then that is what you will be doing.
> 
> The only person who can help him is himself, and until he hits the bottom he isn't even going to think about trying to get better.
> 
> Make it clear that you won't have anything to do with him until he has been clean for six months, then don't let him anywhere near you until he has achieved just that.


 
Agreed.
If you really want to help your friend, do an intervention and get him some help. Giving him a job is feeding his addiction.


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## wheeler (Feb 8, 2009)

john elliott said:


> I'm finding that a bit hard to follow. Are you saying what you would do if you were a drug addict?


drug addicts are ill, they need professional help. offering a drug addict a construction job is not that help.


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