# Union rep after my builder. How does it effect me?



## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Morbidzero said:


> Spreading lies wont help you mate.
> The picket lines are hired hands from the unions unemployment list. As for physical damage to property i would assume lawsuits would have killed the unions long ago if it were true. Someone was bitching about paying dues which are around $20 a month for a pension, med insurance, dental, vac pay, training, etc so are you really going to ***** over those $20?


That math doesn't quite make sense.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Deckhead said:


> That math doesn't quite make sense.


Because dues only keep the doors open on the hall, pay the BA and put gas in his car, and pay for the plane tickets for the President. Vacations, medical and pension are paid by employee and employer contributions from the pay check of the worker.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

griz said:


> Nice to see you back...:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Thanks, been busy with my 85 yo parents, who while they are not in poor health, are not in fully good health and are 85.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

griz said:


> Nice to see you back...:thumbsup::thumbsup:


With BigWalley gone, my life here seems empty without a ready foil. Maybe you could argue endlessly with me. Please make sure to do no research of your facts, but state your non-facts with dogged determination.

Oh, and get more licenses


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## Bearded Wonder (Jan 21, 2011)

Morbidzero said:


> Spreading lies wont help you mate.
> The picket lines are hired hands from the unions unemployment list. As for physical damage to property i would assume lawsuits would have killed the unions long ago if it were true. Someone was bitching about paying dues which are around $20 a month for a pension, med insurance, dental, vac pay, training, etc so are you really going to ***** over those $20?


So the actual cost of all these benefits is only $20 bucks a month? 

The money for these things has to come from somewhere. Either from the business owner, or from employees themselves, or from the consumer. I know unions aren't putting up the cash out of their own pockets... Where does the money for these nice things come from? Or does the union just magically create it out of thin air?


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

It's more like $7/hour contributed by the employer, and $4/hour from the employee


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

CO762 said:


> Typical union thug/dirtbag/vermin.
> Depending upon where thug is in the union thug-archy and/or any favors doled out the the higher up thugs, they could:
> A. Hire non union low wage kids or illegals (I know canada doesn't have them) to picket you.
> B. Hire non union low wage kids or illegals (I know canada doesn't have them) to picket the business you're working for.
> ...


That chit wont fly in Texas. :no: Mess with a mans truck and catch a vicious beat down and probably get YOUR truck turned over. Everyone has a piece in their truck cab, too.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Here is an old contract for UA Local 32. Employee contributes $5.50/hour for vacation and $1.00/hour for dues assessed from his check, into the union coffers. The employer has a burden of $18.00/hour that they fund for the employee


http://www.portseattle.org/Business/Labor-Relations/Documents/Labor_Mgt_Agreement_2008_2011.pdf


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

If there weren't special laws, I think unions would be illegal. Personally, I wouldn't work for a bad boss, or union, much less a bad boss AND a union.


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

A Union Business Rep hired a non-union handyman to install his TV?


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Because dues only keep the doors open on the hall, pay the BA and put gas in his car, and pay for the plane tickets for the President. Vacations, medical and pension are paid by employee and employer contributions from the pay check of the worker.


I was just pointing out he was being less than honest trying to make it sound like a union membership only cost $20.

If an idea has merit than that's well and good but making it something its not is bs. Some like unions some don't, to each his own.


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## Morbidzero (Aug 5, 2013)

Deckhead said:


> That math doesn't quite make sense.


The hour of a journeyman is charged at 49.50 in my area but the net hours paid in a check is 38.30 the rest covers vacation pay, medical, dental, apprenticeship, pension, etc. the only out of pocket cost for a carpenter union member is $20. A gross pay for a 40hrs week is 1532.00, depending on your dependents your net pay will be from 1000-1250. a week. 

Now please tell unions suck and are a$$holes from a members standpoint?

Now from a contractors standpoint you might be like wtf why would I pay so much for that ****! But the thing is you bid union jobs and can make bank charging these rates. Another plus is the union is in charge of training your apprentices so they learn their craft and are worth their pay. 

I can keep going all day about the benefits of being in a union but truth be told if your sold on working non union then to each his own.


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## Morbidzero (Aug 5, 2013)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Because dues only keep the doors open on the hall, pay the BA and put gas in his car, and pay for the plane tickets for the President. Vacations, medical and pension are paid by employee and employer contributions from the pay check of the worker.


Like i said the only out of pocket cost for members is $20 in my area.
Workers who are opposed to unions tend to be the ones who have never sat down and ran the numbers to see which way the balance tips to.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

And employers who are opposed to unions are the ones who've seen first hand how lazy and whiny the union workers are. :thumbsup: "I didn't get my third 15 minute break today"..."I only got to sit down for 45 minutes at lunch because I'm supposed to be 'back and ready to work' after my hour is up"..."Damn slave driving company only gives us 2 15 minute breaks a day instead of the 4 I'm used to, so I'm just gonna sneak off and take 'em anyway, I mean :whistling...use the john" Waa, waa, waaaaaaa

I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again...unions had their time....but that time is over.

I guess I should edit that to say: ".....how lazy and whiny SOME union workers are" 

How would little ol' me know about ALL union workers everywhere


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## Morbidzero (Aug 5, 2013)

jproffer said:


> And employers who are opposed to unions are the ones who've seen first hand how lazy and whiny the union workers are. :thumbsup: "I didn't get my third 15 minute break today"..."I only got to sit down for 45 minutes at lunch because I'm supposed to be 'back and ready to work' after my hour is up"..."Damn slave driving company only gives us 2 15 minute breaks a day instead of the 4 I'm used to, so I'm just gonna sneak off and take 'em anyway, I mean :whistling...use the john" Waa, waa, waaaaaaa
> 
> I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again...unions had their time....but that time is over.
> 
> ...


It comes down to how you accustom your employees, if your lead lets **** like that flyby then give him the boot.
If an employee ain't producing then cut him loose.
Personally I don't have problems with this in house but rather when u need new hire that is when some spoiled brat might slip in but like I said give him the boot. 

Honestly how does this diverse in non union jobs?


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

It's the giving him the boot part that's the problem.

It usually goes like this:

Company: "We have to let you go." (Why, oh why can't we say "your dumb azz is f**kin' fired" anymore is beyond be, but that's another thread.  )

Employee: "HA, we'll see about that chit"

Union Rep.: "Couldn't ya just give Bob ONE more chance? :thumbsup: "

Company: "Bob's had a dozen chances, and Bob doesn't learn one damn thing from his chances, so I don't think so."

Union Rep: "Well I noticed you didn't come right out and say 'no' :thumbsup: ....are you SUUUUUUURE we can't just let him try one more time?? I'll talk to him."

Company: "Weeeelllllllllllllllllllllllllll"

.......and 15 minutes later, everyone in the meeting is walking out of the office laughing and chumming it up, and all is well in union-topia again.

--BTW, in that little script, "Company" isn't me. Cause if it was, Bob would have his "dumb azz f**kin' FIRED"


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## Morbidzero (Aug 5, 2013)

jproffer said:


> It's the giving him the boot part that's the problem.
> 
> It usually goes like this:
> 
> ...


Nah at first for me it was like this
Me sorry but I'm going to have to lay you off.
Dumbass but there is plenty if work left to do
Me no work is slowing down and I need to lay off a few workers until we get more work.
Dumbass leaves and slams door.
Me phones rings hello Darcy I'm going to need two more journeyman on my job tomorrow, thanks.

I rather lay them off as i don't have to cut them two checks on the spot if i had fired them.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Creter said:


> A Union Business Rep hired a non-union handyman to install his TV?


Same reason why they don't walk their own picket lines....they are beneath that and have better things to do, like make more money elsewhere, go on vacation, go to the unionhall and get blasted by lunch....on the clock of course....


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## JR Shepstone (Jul 14, 2011)

CO762 said:


> Same reason why they don't walk their own picket lines....they are beneath that and have better things to do, like make more money elsewhere, go on vacation, go to the unionhall and get blasted by lunch....on the clock of course....


I've "bannered" before, so part of what you're saying may be untrue.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Morbidzero said:


> Now please tell unions suck and are a$$holes from a members standpoint?


Sometimes they are, depends upon the individual and the group.

But IMO, y'all are standing in a forest arguing about one tree.
I don't think anyone cares if an individual wants to join a union. You can join a union, my dog can join a union, etc. No one cares. However, when unions are imposed upon individuals/businesses/taxpayers/etc. then it's no longer that single tree as the source of debate.

Government--another form of a collective, but with police/enforcement/regulatory powers--also has no business in whether or not someone has to join a collective (union) in order to get a job, nor does the collective (government) have any business mandating to non-collective (government) entities (businesses) that they must be unionized in order to do work for them. It should be just about doing the work in a professional, cost effective manner, not about giving monies to various collectives, counting skin colors, genders, who someone sleeps with, etc.

Power to the individual, not any faceless collective.


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## Morbidzero (Aug 5, 2013)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Not true. I am well aware of a job in Libby MT that started as a merit shop job, and the Boilermakers shut the job down until the contractor became signatory to the BM. I was good friends with the sons of the BM Internationals VP, and they told me of all sorts of jobs where they were sent to merit jobs as spies and organizers.
> 
> Again, completely and utterly false. Unions work forces are protected by prevailing wage laws, where all wages paid on that project are tied to the prevailing union wage. Without that law, union contractors would be hard pressed to compete against merit shops with a substantially smaller wage packet. Even this does not prevent unions with their strong political backing from losing work, and a recent incarnation to these laws is the PLA (Project Labor Agreement), where all work must be union, and PW contractors are disqualified. How this has passed legal muster is beyond me.


I'm sorry but i don't seem to understand your point in relation to my post.


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## Morbidzero (Aug 5, 2013)

hdavis said:


> I say it's unconscionable to bribe politicians to force only union G contracts on the back of the average guy, and guys like you that...
> 
> Well, I better stop there. I know much more about union activity in various states than you seem to want put up front. Coordinating and funding minority neighbor "organizers" to raise all kinds of heck in a neighborhood to use as a pressure point for organizing local businesses, for instance. Safety, environmental racism, "living wage" and so on.
> 
> I know plenty of union guys who are great, but I have only disdain for the unions themselves.


You quoted me but still failed to address my point.


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## Morbidzero (Aug 5, 2013)

ClaytonR said:


> Maybe I'm over-simplifying something I don't fully understand, but the mindset of union workers is beyond me, and I'm opposed to the ideology behind them. I wouldn't be a part of a union, and if a job I was working mandated that I had to be, I'd quit.
> 
> I can't fathom, for instance, the notion that one would agree to work for a company for such and such compensation, become dissatisfied with the wages/conditions/benefits/etc and, instead of giving them the finger and going to find a job more to your liking, you ***** and moan and picket and whatever else and demand your "rights" to a higher wage and better benefits than your employer currently provides. Only a loser with a victim mentality does that, or sees that as a reasonable course of action.
> 
> Further, by jacking up employment costs for employers beyond market value, I don't see how there can be any other outcome than the end cost to the consumer for whatever product is ultimately driven higher, and how does that ultimately help anyone?


I don't see the problem with setting up a picket line. What did the black community do when they wanted civil rights? What did the Hispanic community do when they also took part in the civil rights movement? What did woman do when they wanted their rights? I see it as workers are asking for fair pay for good quality work. The idea is to bring the entire industry up to a set standard were we can all live well and provide for our family. 

How many of you have seen 55+ year old worker who should have retired long ago but can't as he has no retirement plan and can't afford to retire? I don't know about you but I wouldn't want that to be my father, nor me, nor my children someday. The union provides in that matter were one day i can retire with a pension + social to over me and if I saved something on the side even better. Honestly I don't care what anyone says when you do the numbers union will always be on top as opposed to working none union.

As for the prices we are the set standard in which the market and prevailing wage is based on any one bidding below that are the hacks IMO.

Now to get back on topic i don't think the op has anything to worry about as you employer probably won't want to join the union so thats that as they say.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

So you're equating civil rights and basic human rights to your "right" to 5 coffee breaks and $40/hr???


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

In Austin, I dont know how the unions stay employed even on their small scale. Other than state and federal projects.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Morbidzero said:


> Please reread my statement to find out.


$49.50 - $39.30 = $10.20

Help me out. I still don't see it.


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

Lumping all Unions and Union Members into the same pot with lack of work ethic, excessive breaks and overpriced wages is not a fair statement in my opinion.

And that opinion stems from personal experience as being a union carpenter for one of the top foundation contractors in St. Louis. There were no free lunches, passes or trade offs.

One busted your their arse putting in a fair days work for a fair days wage. Anything else and you were sent down the road, Jack.

Now, I have seen less than ambitious union members doing what they thought they were entitled to produce as a fair days work but their opinion and ours were very different.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Morbidzero said:


> besides all government jobs, hospitals, etc. are all union as they can appreciate the unions work.


actually, they aren't.

I had an extended stay at a VA once and their ada showerhead couldn't stay up--simple fix. I told the nurses about it and they said they'd asked for that to be fixed for a very long while, but it takes forever to get anything done there. So I said once I got out, I'd come back and fix it, no charge, no nothing. In no words that no one said, I was told that wasn't allowed and I'd get into a lot of trouble...and the staff there.

VA nurses are wonderful. Fed slugs (liars) on the maint staff would go out in the waiting rooms at night and sleep. Nurses know how government/union institutions are, so all they could do is when they walked by them, kick the back of the sofa they were sleeping on. And they did.  

MRSA was going around pretty hot and when it came time to clean up the floors in rooms, the gov staff were never around as they needed to be called and scheduled and some other BS. And when they did show up, they'd work slowly, do it half arsed, then leave before it was done, so people like the nurses (LPNs) would be the ones on the floor cleaning **** up, literally. The best LPN was a vietnamese guy whose family fled the people's collective vietnam when he was a teen.

I really have nothing good to say for unions or any protected class, favored class, elite group, etc.


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## Morbidzero (Aug 5, 2013)

Morbidzero said:


> You misread my post as a contractor i charge 49.50 per hour for each of my employees but i only pay them 39.30 on their check for 40hrs its 1572.00 before taxes, after taxes and depending on your dependants its around 1000-1250 net profit for the employee.
> As for the 10.10 i charge extra i send to the union as it covers their pension, medical, dental, vacations pay, etc. which the union takes care of handling. Every six months my journeyman receive a check from the union for vacations pay for every hour worked they get $2 towards it. For example one of my guys worked from jan- July 1000hrs so the union send him a check for $2000.
> Like i said the only out of pocket cost for my guys to be in the union is to pay $20 a month.


Please read the second paragraph:/


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## Morbidzero (Aug 5, 2013)

jproffer said:


> So you're equating civil rights and basic human rights to your "right" to 5 coffee breaks and $40/hr???


I the civil movement as a right to protest as do the union workers do on none union jobs. We're you get the idea to that we want coffee breaks and all this other none sense is beyond me:/ what I'm talking about is having medical, dental, vacations pay, fair pay, pension, etc. and in my area its 39.30 per hr plus benefits working commercial. As for having lazy employees i just see we're you are getting this from i can expect a pair of hangers to drywall 70+ sheets within an 8 hr day fully screwed off and I could go on and on about how my guys are better than the hacks out there. Now if there are self entitled little pricks out there that want to get paid and not work well its like anywhere else you give him the boot.


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## Morbidzero (Aug 5, 2013)

Creter said:


> Lumping all Unions and Union Members into the same pot with lack of work ethic, excessive breaks and overpriced wages is not a fair statement in my opinion.
> 
> And that opinion stems from personal experience as being a union carpenter for one of the top foundation contractors in St. Louis. There were no free lunches, passes or trade offs.
> 
> ...


Finally someone with some common sense.


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

CO762 -

Sometimes a supplier can give you the clout to remove a problem. I worked for a company that was 100% union (building trades in the plant and Temasters for delivery). The majority of our sales were to non-union contractors, but another large percentage to the largest commercial contractors (union) and we had 40% of the market at the highest price intentionally. - The leverage a union supplier has is that is usually a year round employer and has the advantage of a seniority list that is controlled by the union. A union will not bother with a single contractor if it denies other "brothers" from work that depends on annual sales. - If we had a non-union customer being bannerd/bothered, we (our dispatchers) would call the union and inform them that it prevented their "brothers" from working and said the right to run the banner was up to our employee and he could be sent home for lack of work and paid the daily minimum while the other plant employees would also lose work. - It was a good arrangement on a personal and legal basis.

We never had to worry about the smaller fringe suppliers because we were helping the majority of our customers (non-union contractors). Some senior union drivers would take a "leave" in the height of the season (maintaining union benefits) and work by the piece for non-union contractors because they came out ahead in the end for winter seniority rights and younger driver got more hours in the high season. - It just worked.

There were also some other and more strong-armed situations where the suppliers used the unions to supply the customers needs.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I have a legitimate beef with the union rules (in our area, and I assume the same elsewhere)

We (Read 'I') are an ICF contractor...so in order to do our (my) job

the ICF guys cannot under no circumstances do certain work as part of our job

Truck is unloaded by a certain crew - not my guys
We can move and stack the block
Iron workers must do the rebar (They are slowly loosen up on this rule)
Bracing (Scaffold) is installed by another crew - not my guys
Concrete placement is another crew - not my guys

So...who's the union looking out for? It is requiring me to employ a multitude of people instead of being able to use my fully trained (most by me personally) experienced staff to complete the whole project.

Do you realize all the layoffs I would be doing? unloading a truck takes 30-45 mins and I have to hire a specialized crew to do this and send them on their way, oh wait, I have to pay a 4 hour minimum, so I'll hire 2 guys instead of 6 so I don't screw the budget, but instead screw the schedule. My man hour rate just got pi$$ed away as my block installer is working with rod buster who are jaw jacking as they go instead of working somewhat independently and paying 2 journeyman wages as opposed to 1 that is all that's required to do the job, and when it's built I lay them off since another crew has to come and place the concrete.

Let's not get too deep on this, but also my block stacker is not allowed to clean up after himself as that is another persons job and God forbid we do a job that belongs to someone else.


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Chis -

I understand the situation you have. You are single sub-contractor that has to hire other subcontractors to do portions of the work and have very little "clout", connections or leverage but still have to do the job in the end.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

Morbidzero said:


> I the civil movement as a right to protest as do the union workers do on none union jobs. We're you get the idea to that we want coffee breaks and all this other none sense is beyond me:/ what I'm talking about is having medical, dental, vacations pay, fair pay, pension, etc. and in my area its 39.30 per hr plus benefits working commercial. As for having lazy employees i just see we're you are getting this from i can expect a pair of hangers to drywall 70+ sheets within an 8 hr day fully screwed off and I could go on and on about how my guys are better than the hacks out there. Now if there are self entitled little pricks out there that want to get paid and not work well its like anywhere else you give him the boot.


It's not an idea my friend....I've seen it. :thumbsup:


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Not one person is better then another, at the end of the day if the site needs to be cleaned up, everyone pitches in, laborers to foremen, I don't care who you are or what I pay you, everyone's equal. 

My pay scale is based on what you are able/expected to do above a laborers level on the job.


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## Morbidzero (Aug 5, 2013)

Chris Johnson said:


> I have a legitimate beef with the union rules (in our area, and I assume the same elsewhere)
> 
> We (Read 'I') are an ICF contractor...so in order to do our (my) job
> 
> ...


That is probably were you are at mate.
Here I can do the following
Layout
Framing
Insulation
Drywall
T-bar
Taping
Plaster
Cabinets
Eifs
Delivery

Not that I do all of those but if I need to i can.
I think the solution to your problem as it seems your already union from my understanding is have your guys sign with the appropriate unions so you can do all that work yourself.

On another note i have been getting bashed for supporting the union, and it all seems to be hate messages instead why not express why you believe nonunion is better and then we can just compare the results.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I'm not union

And because of that my guys are allowed to do diverse things on the job.

What the union does for me, it's a benchmark as how I compensate my guys! My guys do not want union, I treat them well and more then fair, that's why they stay. I don't lay them off at the end of a big job...I have more work lined up for them.

I offered benefits last year...single guys did not want them, married guys wives have them, so no point buying something twice. Wages are slightly higher for them to purchase RRSP (401K or IRA).

The unions here dictate who does what and how, if it's not part of your job description and is in some else's, you can't do that job.

And the one that chaps my ass more then anything is when an employee did his 1st year at the union hall, the instructor made it a point to let him know that anyone working in the trades and not a union member was taking food off his table, assholes like that obviously can't fight their own fights and need someone to hold their hand threw life and probably still have momma wipe his ass for him.


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## Morbidzero (Aug 5, 2013)

Chris Johnson said:


> I'm not union
> 
> And because of that my guys are allowed to do diverse things on the job.
> 
> ...


Well I'm sorry to hear that mate. But like it was stated before not all unions are the same and by the looks of it the ones in your area are dicks. Around here i get along with my guys unions. I talked with my contractors union rep the other day and he says the same thing he doesn't have problems with my guys union. As for you being forced to be union or at least in my area is not true several nonunion companies don't get bothered because they treat their guys well and give them several benefits and thats the unions main goal. I don't see why the union would bother you if you do treat your guys right.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Because your last sentence should answer your own question.

They are not getting any fees from me


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