# what is a square of cedar shakes



## phinsher

Painter with a question here. I need to finish some cedar shakes before they are installed. I'm told 20 squares will be ordered. What is a square of cedar shakes? Is that a certain number of shakes? or enough to cover a ceratin square footage? or something else?


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## phinsher

Ok, so i've found out a square is equal to 100 sq ft. Is that enough to cover 100 sq ft once they are lapped over each other, or 100 sq ft without overlapping.


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## Paulsan

One square at 5" exposure requires more shingles than a 7" exposure.


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## Bone Saw

a square is 100sq' installed weather it's cedar shakes, vinyl siding or jock straps


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## phinsher

anybody have a rough idea how many shakes are in a square?


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## Bone Saw

5 bundles/square @ 7" exposure


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## Teetorbilt

what is a square of cedar shakes

I really wanted to have some fun with algebra/calculus here. V2 is not receptive to math symbols, maybe that's good.


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## phinsher

how many shingles in a bundle?


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## Bone Saw

what kind of shakes? tapersawn, royals, handsplits??? never bothered to count:blink: 
7" exposure x (x linear' of shakes abutting side to side) = 100sq'

(x linear' of shakes abutting side to side)/5 bundles=linear' of abutting shakes/bundle

shakes anywhere from 2" - over 12" in width and anywhere in between

royals and handsplits are more like 7 bundles/sq???


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## Bone Saw

you will need a friggin football field to lay all those out for pre painting


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## phinsher

BoneSaw, thanks for all the info. I'm just going to have to go with the info i have from you guys. This is a little favor for my only good builder. He tried to get someone who specializes in this work to complete the task. Seems as though they don't have their act together. My plan is to construct a few racks to put the wet shingles on while they dry. If i think of it i'll take some pictures, maybe it'll help someone else down the road.


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## Teetorbilt

I haven't done shakes in 30 yrs. Aren't they all pre-treated for fire & bugs today? The bundles that I see at the lumberyard seem to be garanteed against fire, rot, bugs and everything short of thermo-nuclear attack.

Today, I use them for shims. Their popularity as a roofing material has waned over the last few years.

I still remember how it's done though! Thatch too!


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## Grumpy

Ok first off a square of cedar is highly dependant on the size of the shake and the exposure of the shake. Here a 10" exposure on roofing is standard but 7" and 5" on walls is standard. Obviously different shakes are required for each. 

How many shakes are in a square? Tough question. I mean most shakes are random widths and to be honest I think they bundle the shakes by weight and are really just taking an educated guess at the coverage. What I mean is one bundle may be 110 square feet and the next 90 square feet but it all averages out in the end. 

If you want me to take a guess I will say there are more than 50 shakes in a bundle and less than 100.

I posted in your other thread, but have you considered hiring a prefinish factor to stain these for you? If you are going to do the staining yourself I suggest dipping the shake and allowing them to air dry. Don't paint them with any brush or roller. You are going to need alot more stain for this, but it will totally increase production time and the quality of the paint job. 

Seriously don't bother with doing this yourself hire a prefinisher to do this for you.


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## Mr. D

I've made some cool racks by ripping 2 slots in a 2x4 each at opposing 10 degree angles. fill em up with shakes. then spray away. you can fill up a shop quick doing this. but it works. for that many check out michiganpre-stain.com for what you can get them pre- finished any more it's well worth the headache.


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## phinsher

Apparently the original plan was to have a pre finish contractor finish the shakes. Something went wrong and the builder is now ready for the shakes to be installed. I told him I'd get him a price to do them on site so they could start hanging them the next day. Looks like my price is roughly twice the pre finish contractors price, and now waiting an extra 2 weeks doesn't seem like such a bad idea.:thumbup:


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## Joe Carola

Bone Saw said:


> a square is 100sq' installed weather it's cedar shakes, vinyl siding or jock straps


True, but not when it comes to what exposure you’re talking about. The guy has to know this in order to figure out how many he will be priming. If it's 5" to the weather as opposed to 10", he will be priming twice as much. That's the answer he's looking for.


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## Peladu

Nevertheless Grumpy's idea of dunking was what I was thinking before even reading his post. Dat's what I wudda dun 2.


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## jmic

The builder should have just ordered them from the supplier pre stained, we do it around here all the time.


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## Bone Saw

Joe Carola said:


> True, but not when it comes to what exposure you’re talking about. The guy has to know this in order to figure out how many he will be priming. If it's 5" to the weather as opposed to 10", he will be priming twice as much. That's the answer he's looking for.


My brain itched trying to make sense of this post Joe, when is a square installed not a square installed??? Installed is the key word here. 20 sq is 20 sq, 5" to the weather or 100'... So paint covererage area is not really in question. I assumed phish's questions as to the # of shakes/bundle was geared up more towards figgering some sort of "assembely line" staging system rather than exposure and paint coverage.


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## Grumpy

That's the thing Bone we are assuming and all assuming something different. I assumed he wanted to paint all the shakes and all sides. Maybe he just wants to paint the exposed 5" but if that were the case wouldn't he just paint them once installed? 

Yeah there is alot of gray area, but bottom line is it'd be alot faster, easier, cheaper, and BETTER if bought pre-finished. It's not often something is cheaper and easier and better at the same time, but this is one case where it is.


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## Double-A

We've done this before, and I just charged the same price as finished on the building (for siding).

We used the dip and flip. Hot day, dip in shade past exposure line and using a hella big brush, brush off the excess. Then flip them out onto a tarp that is in the hot sun and possibly a fan going on it.

Second man gathers them as they lose tackiness and and lays them on 2x4x12', just under another 2x4x12'. After about 15 mins in the sun, we shot the 2x4's together one nail at each end and flipped them over. Another 15 mins in the sun and they were ready to stack up to install.


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## phinsher

well, looks as though I got the job after all. I wanted to give a fair price, but because the builder, lumber co. or anyone else seemed to have any idea how many shakes i'd be dealing with I gave a price to cover my butt even if there are twice the shakes i estimated. 

Just so everyone knows, all sides will be stained. The actual size wasn't isn't as important as the actual quantity. I'm sure you can see how the time to coat a shake thats 12" wide by 12 inches long isn't any different than a shake thats 8" wide by 12" long. The plan from the beginning was to have a small tub, drop a bunch in, pull one at a time out, brush off excess, rest on a 2 by , after a few minutes brush again and place on a rack.

I'll post my cedar shake per bundle and cedar shakes per square count as the job develops. Case you're interested I'll post my production rates in the painting forum.

Double A- looks like my price for pre staining is very close to my price for staining once they're installed also.


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## Double-A

We found it was actually cheaper to pre-stain, but don't ever tell anyone I said that, or I'm not gonna let my dog dry hump AHS again.


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## Grumpy

phinsher said:


> well, looks as though I got the job after all. I wanted to give a fair price, but because the builder, lumber co. or anyone else seemed to have any idea how many shakes i'd be dealing with I gave a price to cover my butt even if there are twice the shakes i estimated.
> 
> Just so everyone knows, all sides will be stained. The actual size wasn't isn't as important as the actual quantity. I'm sure you can see how the time to coat a shake thats 12" wide by 12 inches long isn't any different than a shake thats 8" wide by 12" long. The plan from the beginning was to have a small tub, drop a bunch in, pull one at a time out, brush off excess, rest on a 2 by , after a few minutes brush again and place on a rack.
> 
> I'll post my cedar shake per bundle and cedar shakes per square count as the job develops. Case you're interested I'll post my production rates in the painting forum.
> 
> Double A- looks like my price for pre staining is very close to my price for staining once they're installed also.


Yeah but aren't these shakes 24" long? A 24" shake = 10" exposure + 14" head lap.


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## snapper21

Bone Saw said:


> a square is 100sq' installed weather it's cedar shakes, vinyl siding or _jock straps_


How many sq. of jock straps does it take to hold down a trailer?


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## phinsher

Grumpy,
I think i figured they were something like 18 inches, no idea of the actual length. But like i said the size isn't as important as the quantity. Most of the work will be done while walking the shakes from the tub to the rack. Guess this still stands a chance of being a disaster, but the price I quoted should easily cover me.


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## Bone Saw

snapper21 said:


> How many sq. of jock straps does it take to hold down a trailer?


what exposure?


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## snapper21

Bone Saw said:


> what exposure?


Front side has 0, but the back side looks like 95%


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## Grumpy

snapper21 said:


> Front side has 0, but the back side looks like 95%


Wha?


Exposure would be something like 5", 7" 10" etc...


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## phinsher

ok , in case anyone is still interested i found there to be about 90 shakes per bundle on average. I guess this still varies depending on the type of shingle, luckily these were all the same type, and i don't foresee doing this again anythime soon. The builder never did tell me exactly waht the exposure was, so i guessed 5". We built racks of 1 by 2's screwed to 2 by 3's. Each rack held 3 bundles or aprox. 270 shakes per rack. Looks as though i would have lost my butt on this if it weren't for a few bored high school kids.:whistling


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## Grumpy

Hey i was right, 50-100 was my guess. Definetly each bundle is different, huh? I think the bundle the shakes based on weight. 

How much of the shake actually got painted? bottom 5"? What if he wants a 10" exposure? Wow, that'd be a loss.


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