# Quality of Payne furnace ???



## Home Pro

HVAC contractor quoted a Carrier furnace for new house under construction. When the furnace was installed I noticed it wasn't a Carrier, but was a Payne model. HVAC contractor says the Carrier furnace was on back order for a few weeks, so he installed the Payne (without my approval). Says it is the same furnace (Carrier owns Payne ?), just a different name on it. Is this true or is it a lower quality furnace ? What is the differences in quality, price, warranty ? Should I make him remove the Payne and install the Carrier unit ?


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## #CARRIERMAN

Hi Home Pro

A Payne is Carriers little brother. Just as good but without all the bells and whistles. Warranty is the same either way.

Good luck
Rusty


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## NCSteve

*payne is a much lower line*

If you have a quote in writing, you can take that to the board in your state. A payne is the lowest line in carrier, bryant is mid line and carrier is top line. I think the contractor did you dirty. That furnace is the cheapest one carrier makes.


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## Home Pro

Anyone else have any opinions on my situation above ???


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## AirPro

If you paid for a carrier, you should get a carrier. Payne IS NOT the same as carrier, they are owned by carrier, but not the same equipment. It is the same thing as paying for an Amana, and getting a goodman. Goodman owns Amana, but they are two totally differant units. If they installed a Bryant, I would consider that about the same quality as the carrier(unless it was the infinity). Payne is on the low end of the quality chain IMO.


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## hf05

i've seen carriers bryants and paynes.and once the doors off its the identical unit.up here in toronto if your not a carrier dealer u can't buy one,but i can get the exact same unit only with a payne plate.you would have to check model #s to know what unit u got.Would agree though if u paid for a carrier tag and got a payne tag u have some issues.Thats how carrier sells by there name.Units are junk anyway


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## #CARRIERMAN

Hi hf05

Are you talking about the Cobra version of Carrier?. The reason I asked is you called them junk, but in reality they are the ones everybody in the industry has to catch up too. I am sure if you ask anyone on this site their opinion of Carrier, they may not like things about them but I would say you couldn't find very many to call them junk. If you are thinking about Goodman or Amana, you would probably get a unanimous vote for that one. Any way I was just wondering, no biggie.

Good luck
Rusty


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## HVAC SERV OWNER

Catching UP!!??????? They have been left behind. CARRIER Keeps me in business. I Love working on them **READ (All the TIME)**. If it is not their blower wheels blowing apart or their heat exchangers cracking after 5 years of use. (Yes the air flow is correct). Or the inducer draft motors shreading the blower wheels, Its a GREAT:laughing: unit!!!:w00t: :no: 
BUT I LOVE THE FACT EVERYONE STILL BUYES THEM. They are in the same relm as goodman to me. 

P.S. Dont forget about the freon leaks.... The P O  !!!!


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## #CARRIERMAN

Hi HVAC SERV OWNER

Your post was quite intreguing to me. You listed all the things that can and do happen to all equipment in the industry that is improperly installed. You say they have the proper airflow etc. I guarantee that in the United State there is only about 20% of the equipment installed properly or has proper airflow. The problems that you have listed tell me you are probably in Texas. There were some companys that came into my territory from there and used their skills to install some equipment. By the time they were done we were able to salvage about half of the equipment they installed. But like I said you have your right to your opinion. But I guarantee you if you properly install and maintain a Carrier, it will outperform almost anything else on the market.

Good luck
Rusty


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## mdshunk

I like Fords.


They don't happen to build comfort cooling equipment, however.


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## Hvacman4god

Your contract is quoted for a carrier. I would match the serial number of the carrier model you were quoted for with the equipments price listing and compare that to the price of the payne unit after you match its serial number and model. 

Im sure their is a difference in price and your contractor should be willing to adjust the price according to the equipment quoted or install the equipment quoted.

"Do it right the first time and you dont have to keep patching it up."


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## coolmen

the reason for the contract is to get exactly what your paying for in writing. If it was written for carrier then carrier is what you get. They are simply trying to get over on you for a couple bills. Maybe you would not have gone with this company if they at the start was trying to sell you a payne. I would fight for a vnice discount for keeping the payne or make them rip it out.


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## Induc3r

Payne is made by Carrier, with 90% of the same parts.
However it is equal to bottom rung of Carrier's line-up, and even then is a little cheaper than Carrier branded due to little marketing support.
Definately seek a discount as his cost would have been cheaper.
If you were buying a basic Carrier model and not hi-end then its not too big a deal you got essentially the same thing.


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## FemaleAstarCO

Agreed on the quality LOL .I think they keep us all in business. Sorry Carrierman Bryant, Carrier, Payne Goodman all "Contractor Grade" but good for service income.


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## arterm

FemaleAstarCO said:


> Agreed on the quality LOL .I think they keep us all in business. Sorry Carrierman Bryant, Carrier, Payne Goodman all "Contractor Grade" but good for service income.


This is all good, but what make would you recommend?


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## BigJon3475

I say choose a good installer....they can make junk work better than choosing a great piece of equipment and having it installed wrong. They all pass the same ARI standard.....or do builders grade have to pass a lower standard??:no:


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## kwoody3

GM owns Cadillac and Chevrolet. You paid for an Escalade and they gave you an Avalanche. Get your Carrier unit.


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## vlux

BigJon3475 said:


> I say choose a good installer....they can make junk work better than choosing a great piece of equipment and having it installed wrong. They all pass the same ARI standard.....or do builders grade have to pass a lower standard??:no:


thanks Big J on you hit the nail on the head.:thumbsup: I always get a kick out of pros bashing a product. How unprofessional


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## HeatPro

I always enjoy it when people pull the "unprofessional" card. 
By definition:
*Definition*: not done well or skilled
I suppose in this instance it is not up to the standards of people paid to argue or make rules about what one can express. 

Usually it just means that people who sell something don't like others to point out problems; especially HVAC pros that have been hit by manufacturing mistakes they had to solve. It might also mean that there are annoying 'whistle-blowers who won't go along with collusion to keep problems from the public eye - especially annoying as they can't be fired - just smeared.

I'd think that simply pointing out there there are problems that have been solved by experience and intelligence would be 'professional' enough - even to the folks that want to control annoying speech.


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## vlux

HeatPro said:


> I always enjoy it when people pull the "unprofessional" card.
> By definition:
> *Definition*: not done well or skilled
> I suppose in this instance it is not up to the standards of people paid to argue or make rules about what one can express.
> 
> Usually it just means that people who sell something don't like others to point out problems; especially HVAC pros that have been hit by manufacturing mistakes they had to solve. It might also mean that there are annoying 'whistle-blowers who won't go along with collusion to keep problems from the public eye - especially annoying as they can't be fired - just smeared.
> 
> I'd think that simply pointing out there there are problems that have been solved by experience and intelligence would be 'professional' enough - even to the folks that want to control annoying speech.


Mr Heatpro you seem like a very intelligent guy, all Im saying is I dont think its right to walk a company off a cliff because of bad models they have had. I will admit that goodman has had its share of bad models but I also think they have come along way. thank you


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## HeatPro

I agree that simply smearing a company for past mistakes doesn't represent the good engineers that finally solved the problems. Very often, smearing is done by someone who thinks they'll get more sales for their line, not realizing that when so many do the same, nobody trusts them. It's better to point out there were problems, they are solved and give the reasons for selling yours than to waste trust smearing others.


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## BigMikeB

vlux said:


> Mr Heatpro you seem like a very intelligent guy, all Im saying is I dont think its right to walk a company off a cliff because of bad models they have had. I will admit that goodman has had its share of bad models but I also think they have come along way. thank you


So if I was to say that Goodman is cheap crap that I wouldn't reccommend to anyone, that's a bad thing? I am not tied into any brand so I will install any piece of equipment a customer wants. If asked about a furnace I will say I wouldn't use a Goodman and I hate their condensing units as well.


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## HeatPro

> I will install any piece of equipment a customer wants. If asked about a furnace I will say I wouldn't use a Goodman and I hate their condensing units as well.


A contractor carries enough liability. I too would find it hard to explain in court why I'd install or not condemn a unit I really felt would be dangerous enough to expect an exchanger failure.


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## Audie

*owner/hvac*

The Payne furnace is the same as the lower end Carrier units. The Payne models are not advertised and sold for a little less than the the Carrier name. Depending on which Carrier furnace that was originally quoted as there are several models and the price range can be significant. He should at least have offered you a small difference in pricing if he used the Payne I'm a Bryant/Carrier dealer (15 yrs) and sell several of the Payne models. I also sell several other brands. I like to stick to major name brands as they are the guys doing the development on new efficient products. A lot of the others are copycats. Just put a goodman on the side of a Carrier, Trane, Lennox or York and see the difference in quality of manufacture. At one time or another they have all had their share of problems but mostly with their vendors material. The majors will stand behind their products and make it right. Overall they are an excellent furnace and typically don't give any problems. When I quote a customer a price I include model numbers so they can look at it online and see exactly what they are getting. I have in the past ran into a model not available on time but I get my distributor to offer the next model up not down. I recently quoted a 15 seer system and when I placed the order it wasn't in stock except at the factory. My dist gave my customer a 17 seer at the same price. Sounds like he tried to save a few bucks. You'll probably catch heck getting him to change it unless you haven't paid him yet.:thumbsup:


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## flashheatingand

Home Pro said:


> HVAC contractor quoted a Carrier furnace for new house under construction. When the furnace was installed I noticed it wasn't a Carrier, but was a Payne model. HVAC contractor says the Carrier furnace was on back order for a few weeks, so he installed the Payne (without my approval). Says it is the same furnace (Carrier owns Payne ?), just a different name on it. Is this true or is it a lower quality furnace ? What is the differences in quality, price, warranty ? Should I make him remove the Payne and install the Carrier unit ?


If you really want the Carrier unit, you are entitled to it. However, if you simply want an appliance that will reliably heat and/or cool your house. The Payne unit is likely to do the job just as well. But you are entitled to either a price break or an extended warranty or something in your favor.


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## flashheatingand

Audie said:


> The Payne furnace is the same as the lower end Carrier units. The Payne models are not advertised and sold for a little less than the the Carrier name. Depending on which Carrier furnace that was originally quoted as there are several models and the price range can be significant. He should at least have offered you a small difference in pricing if he used the Payne I'm a Bryant/Carrier dealer (15 yrs) and sell several of the Payne models. I also sell several other brands. I like to stick to major name brands as they are the guys doing the development on new efficient products. A lot of the others are copycats. Just put a goodman on the side of a Carrier, Trane, Lennox or York and see the difference in quality of manufacture. At one time or another they have all had their share of problems but mostly with their vendors material. The majors will stand behind their products and make it right. Overall they are an excellent furnace and typically don't give any problems. When I quote a customer a price I include model numbers so they can look at it online and see exactly what they are getting. I have in the past ran into a model not available on time but I get my distributor to offer the next model up not down. I recently quoted a 15 seer system and when I placed the order it wasn't in stock except at the factory. My dist gave my customer a 17 seer at the same price. Sounds like he tried to save a few bucks. You'll probably catch heck getting him to change it unless you haven't paid him yet.:thumbsup:


Why the hate for goodman. The heat exchangers are the same tubular design that were used on amana no rivits to pop.. The fan motors are fine, as is the ignition system. What is most important is that the dealer back up the product they sell. Be it brand A, B,or C.

One flaw is on the 90+ downflow furnaces (goodman). The air intake is piped in a way that makes pulling the blower motor quite a task. But our supplier has no problem in making good with warranty issues. Heck, frequently the root of the problem is installer involved.

Unforturnately, the supply houses here don't have "demos" on their models. It would be nice to see what is the latest out there other than Amana, Goodman.


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## 747

mdshunk said:


> I like Fords.
> 
> 
> They don't happen to build comfort cooling equipment, however.


I like fords to.


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## 747

I have a hotwater boiler. But when my heating plumbing air con man was out a month ago to clean my boiler install new coupler and install new pilot lite because i had a soft pilot lite now it is like little blow torch i asked him what forced air furnaces he installs he said armstrong or american standard. When he started shoveing the brush from bottom of the coils up alot of soot came out.:laughing: Not so much from top down.


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## Dr Heat

Noridien Lenox York United tec. American Standard that's all there is and there aint no more.

well there is lux air 

A box is a box higher a great contractor and let him put in what he installs; however, if he sells you a duck don't accept a chicken. Ducks are expensive.:laughing:


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## Miller257

Payne and carrier have about 95% the exact same parts, sit each of them side by side and they look identical. The basic 92% furnace, carrier will run you about 400$ more than the payne model. if i were you i would ask the contractor for the price difference. sounds like hes trying to pull a fast one on you.


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## jwise

As the majority has already said, Paynes are the low end of the carrier brands. They are good. I replaced a Payne condensor last summer that was at least 20 years old. Paynes do not cost as much as carrier units but that does not mean they are not good. Most all companies make a good unit (save Janitrol or Goodman or whatever they are today). It is the installer that makes the difference. Is it sized right? Are the ducts designed right? Is the return air coming from the places it needs to? There are a lot of things that can go wrong with a unit if it is not done right. The contractor is what one needs to be concerned about more than the brand. That said it sounds like the ethics of the contractor mentioned might be questionable.


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## Tinmanfab

BigJon is right. As long as a qualified professional who takes the time to do it right is there, you should have nothing to worry about no matter what is installed.

I pride myself on going the extra mile. I don't have any real service issues. Nobody can afford to do it twice.

However, I would certainly want a credit on the difference between Payne and Carrier. Though they may be part of the same company, the contractor paid less for your equipment. Why should you pay more for something you didn't bargain for. Get the difference in cost.

Your contractor should have been forthcoming and told you about this at the time of the installation. It would leave a bad taste in my mouth as far as feeling like he was trying to get one over on me.

I worked for another contractor who did the switcharoos out here. They sold a carrier air handler with hot water coils and had me install Coleman/Evcon. Yeah. Sure everything worked right (10 SEER)...but it WAS NOT HONEST BUSINESS. I knew that even though I had not been in business for myself. It was deceiving and they knew it. They had me take the nameplate off the Coleman unit before I installed it. They rooked the guy. Dealings like that only fortified the motion to go out on my own. I am on my own now for 7+ years and I would never do anything like that to anyone.


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## heartoftexas

We can not wait to take my moms Junky Payne unit out and put in a new 20 SEER American Standard heatpump. Only the best for my mama


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## rayslayer

*You guys are funny!*

First of all United tech owns Carrier and Payne and etc. Carrier does not own Payne. And yes very similar in fact the same in many instances, and the cheapest Payne blows away a lot of the best the others have to offer!! Been a Carrier dealer for almost 40 years as well as a few others we have dropped due to quality. Some of you are talking about American standard??? im not sure why we are talking about toilets this is not a plumbing forum is it?? As far as heat exchanger lasting 5 years??? not sure how much gas pressure he's running or type of gas, Lifetime heat exchanger warranty with 20 years labour on part! best in the industry!! In my neck of the woods Payne and Carrier are the best, we are allways changing out Lax-aire, Badman, Janijunk, Cheaprite (U.T. product) etc etc etc. some in less than 5 years. and with Carriers current platform being almost 18 years old now, and all the ones weve installed that age are still rockin. To each there own on opinions and thats mine.


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## NickTech

i agree that carrier and payne are alike perhaps in parts and quality, but YOU PAID for the carrier name! not for payne. would you pay for a lexus but dive off in a toyota? even though they are really the same in and of itself, its the prestige of the name brand that you are paying for. i agree with the above, sounds like you were done dirty. either have your payne unit priced and get the $$ difference back or have the carrier installed.


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## Miller257

rayslayer said:


> First of all United tech owns Carrier and Payne and etc. Carrier does not own Payne. And yes very similar in fact the same in many instances, and the cheapest Payne blows away a lot of the best the others have to offer!! Been a Carrier dealer for almost 40 years as well as a few others we have dropped due to quality. Some of you are talking about American standard??? im not sure why we are talking about toilets this is not a plumbing forum is it?? As far as heat exchanger lasting 5 years??? not sure how much gas pressure he's running or type of gas, Lifetime heat exchanger warranty with 20 years labour on part! best in the industry!! In my neck of the woods Payne and Carrier are the best, we are allways changing out Lax-aire, Badman, Janijunk, Cheaprite (U.T. product) etc etc etc. some in less than 5 years. and with Carriers current platform being almost 18 years old now, and all the ones weve installed that age are still rockin. To each there own on opinions and thats mine.


american standard owned and made trane for years as well as the american standard brand of hvac equip. american standard split up the company a few years ago and now it is called the trane company, which still makes american standard equipment. suppried you've been in the business for 40 years and have never heard of american standard.


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## nratom45-70

NCSteve said:


> If you have a quote in writing, you can take that to the board in your state. A payne is the lowest line in carrier, bryant is mid line and carrier is top line. I think the contractor did you dirty. That furnace is the cheapest one carrier makes.


I agree totally with the above quote. I'm sure your bid was figured at Carrier pricing so why accept anything less.


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## BCool

I am currently debating if I should install a Payne or a Carrier Infinity ICS 80,000 in my own house. (There are other infinity lines). Since I am a contractor obviously I get prefered pricing on parts and I can do the work myself so repairs are not an issue. I am however trying to justify the extra cost for the Carrier. I have found out that the top of the line Payne unit is about 92% while the Carrier advertises 96% The Carrier also has better insulation in the cabinet and a better warranty. You can also connect their special $250.00 contoller ( thermostat with airflow and humidity options) Can somebody give me a reason to spend the extra $500.00 for the furnace and another $250.00 for the controller. In closing the contractor paid much less for the Payne, and Carrier furnaces are RARELY on back order. I dont think he will install a Carrier after the job has been done but good luck with that.


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## jeremy-lvhm

BCool said:


> I am currently debating if I should install a Payne or a Carrier Infinity ICS 80,000 in my own house. (There are other infinity lines). Since I am a contractor obviously I get prefered pricing on parts and I can do the work myself so repairs are not an issue. I am however trying to justify the extra cost for the Carrier. I have found out that the top of the line Payne unit is about 92% while the Carrier advertises 96% The Carrier also has better insulation in the cabinet and a better warranty. You can also connect their special $250.00 contoller ( thermostat with airflow and humidity options) Can somebody give me a reason to spend the extra $500.00 for the furnace and another $250.00 for the controller. In closing the contractor paid much less for the Payne, and Carrier furnaces are RARELY on back order. I dont think he will install a Carrier after the job has been done but good luck with that.


 
Not being a big carrier fan I have heard good things about the infinity systems. THe whole thing is better comfort and lower cost of operation. If you want to spend less in the long run and be more comfortable at lower temperatures then I suggest you spend the extra money. I personally would take anything over payne. ICP products are a nice as well and compare closely to carrier without the infinity controls.


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## Cregg Calhoun

*Yes price*

About $250 to $600 dollars in saving unit same !Unit was in stock if not could have receive in two buss. Days!


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## tmr91

I have a payne propane furnace model # pg8m. Is this compatible with a carrier infinity 25hna6 heat pump?


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## Cregg Calhoun

*Yes you can use a payne furnace*

Yes you can use a payne furnace . carrier & payne are the same unit.Pyane is low end of carrier .you could use any furnace reem,york,goodman,etc,as long as your tonage is correct!!
You may loose very little seer rate not enough to notice !if you mix Match your a/c coil to your condenser!


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## beenthere

tmr91 said:


> I have a payne propane furnace model # pg8m. Is this compatible with a carrier infinity 25hna6 heat pump?


Not really.
You can do it. But you won't get the full use of the 2 stage heat pump. Since the PSC motor can't be control like the ECM blower that heat pump was designed to work with.


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## plummen

#CARRIERMAN said:


> Hi hf05
> 
> Are you talking about the Cobra version of Carrier?. The reason I asked is you called them junk, but in reality they are the ones everybody in the industry has to catch up too. I am sure if you ask anyone on this site their opinion of Carrier, they may not like things about them but I would say you couldn't find very many to call them junk. If you are thinking about Goodman or Amana, you would probably get a unanimous vote for that one. Any way I was just wondering, no biggie.
> 
> Good luck
> Rusty


 any equipment can be junk if its installed wrong,and yes i like goodman equipment and dont have any major problems with it.maybe im one of those 20%s you referred to.ive serviced pretty much every brand available up her just slightly above you,my biggest ***** with carrier just like lennox is availability of parts and price of parts. :whistling


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## plummen

BigMikeB said:


> So if I was to say that Goodman is cheap crap that I wouldn't reccommend to anyone, that's a bad thing? I am not tied into any brand so I will install any piece of equipment a customer wants. If asked about a furnace I will say I wouldn't use a Goodman and I hate their condensing units as well.


 you dont like their condensors? how many companys are actual manufacturers and how man just have stuff made for them? do you remember when ducane was a furnace manufacturer before lennox bought them and screwed it all up?last time i looked goodman was an actual manufacturer so was evcon along with a few others.
next time youre on a job look inside your favorite furnace to see whos parts are in there,same with the condensor.then pop the top on a goodman and start comparing part manufacturers :whistling


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## Enzytebob

BCool said:


> I am currently debating if I should install a Payne or a Carrier Infinity ICS 80,000 in my own house. (There are other infinity lines). Since I am a contractor obviously I get prefered pricing on parts and I can do the work myself so repairs are not an issue. I am however trying to justify the extra cost for the Carrier. I have found out that the top of the line Payne unit is about 92% while the Carrier advertises 96% The Carrier also has better insulation in the cabinet and a better warranty. You can also connect their special $250.00 contoller ( thermostat with airflow and humidity options) Can somebody give me a reason to spend the extra $500.00 for the furnace and another $250.00 for the controller. In closing the contractor paid much less for the Payne, and Carrier furnaces are RARELY on back order. I dont think he will install a Carrier after the job has been done but good luck with that.


 
I too am a contractor who recently installed his own system. If you ask me, I would go with the Bryant variant of the infinity system. All the components are virtually identical and you will save a great deal of money.

I have the carrier 18 seer infinity system on my house only because I came across a sweet slightly damaged system in the wharehouse. Horizontal system in the attic, do i really care if it has some scrapes and small dents? The condenser had been hit by a forklift and had the high side valve ripped off. New coil because they're just too in-exspensive to worry about a damaged drain pan or potential refridgerant leak.

If you are a contractor, waiting for a deal like that can save a boatload. Unfortunately, no deals on the damn T-stat!!! Its worth every penny however, definately the cool kid on the block with one of those in the hallway!!!


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## John888

Hi Guys, 
Which brands do you find most reliable for furnaces (100-120K btu) 2 stage? 
Same for AC units 4 ton? Which brand is most reliable? Buffalo/Niagara NY area climate/ installation.


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## avenge

John888 said:


> Hi Guys,
> Which brands do you find most reliable for furnaces (100-120K btu) 2 stage?
> Same for AC units 4 ton? Which brand is most reliable? Buffalo/Niagara NY area climate/ installation.


What's your trade?


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## Robie

I give a taillight warranty.
I just usually go with the cheapest.


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