# Masonry Sign on Old Footer



## fakie99 (Nov 18, 2008)

I will be building a sign for a subdivision and would like some feedback. We'll be replacing an exisgin sign, bcuase it doesn't fit the deisgn style, and we'll be using the existing footer for the new sign.) 

Question is, once demo of old sign is done, I expect to have some irregularity in the surface of the footer on which we'll be laying up the new block. Can this generally be handled with a surface coat of mortar to smooth things out, provided the irregularities are made as small as possible during demo? I was also planning on rebar connection from old footer to new block.

Thanks.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Judging by the question, I take it you haven't done this type of work before??? Are you subbing this out??


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## fakie99 (Nov 18, 2008)

other than the standard "you're not experienced enough to do this/you're an unlicensed loser" responses that have become so prevalent on this site, can anyone add any constructive feedback to this question?

thx.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

It is pretty simple, and had you done it before, you would know the answer. The mud bed for the first course is all you need, so long as the slab is within an inch or 2 plus or minus. Just be sure you check level and allow for the high point.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

How big is the existing footer?

How much steel reinforcement if any is in it?

What size bars and how many do you plan on putting in the new wall?

Are you using knockout blocks on the top course and using steel in it and pouring it?


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

fakie99 said:


> other than the standard "you're not experienced enough to do this/you're an unlicensed loser" responses that have become so prevalent on this site, can anyone add any constructive feedback to this question?
> 
> thx.


 
My reply to you was constructive feedback. Your inexperience in masonry design & construction is so glaringly obvious. Some projects are best left to the true pros, not wannabees:laughing:


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

Try not to let those guys frustrate you, they just like to mess with new guys.

It is absolutly critical that the base is as close to level as possible. This may require grinding off the high spots and skim patching the low spots. A diamond cup blade will work well for this. They are a little spendy, but will make up for the cost in time savings. 

If you start out level, all will be good. If you are the slightest bit unlevel, you will fight it all the way up. If you want to go the extra mile you could add a bonding agent to the footer. Be sure to coat the first course of block as well as any rebar you add. 

For the skim patch, I would use 5000 psi mix from quickcrete and an epoxy admixture. You should be able to find the epoxy at your local masonry supply. I have used epoxy from the home depot before, but it was messy and hard to estimate the amount needed. 

Good luck with your project and post pictures so we can check it out.:thumbsup:


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## fakie99 (Nov 18, 2008)

good suggestions - thanks so much for the feedback guys. best of luck to all for a prosperous season!


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

dakzaag said:


> Try not to let those guys frustrate you, they just like to mess with new guys.
> 
> It is absolutly critical that the base is as close to level as possible. This may require grinding off the high spots and skim patching the low spots. A diamond cup blade will work well for this. They are a little spendy, but will make up for the cost in time savings.
> 
> ...


funny stuff!


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

dakzaag said:


> Try not to let those guys frustrate you, they just like to mess with new guys.
> 
> It is absolutly critical that the base is as close to level as possible. This may require grinding off the high spots and skim patching the low spots. A diamond cup blade will work well for this. They are a little spendy, but will make up for the cost in time savings.
> 
> ...





Man this is really making a mountain out of a mole hill.


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## Captainsls (Nov 8, 2007)

Tscarborough said:


> The mud bed for the first course is all you need


This^


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

NJ Brickie said:


> Man this is really making a mountain out of a mole hill.


I think he was joking! Or at least I hope so! Its sometimes hard to tell on these here internets.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

lukachuki said:


> I think he was joking! Or at least I hope so! Its sometimes hard to tell on these here internets.



I figured as much, just adding to the humor (unsucessfully I guess). I was impressed with the extent dakzaag went to. haha


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

i got a kick out of bwally's reply.
what does any of the questions he asked have to do with what fakelayer asked in his post?
i mean,how the hell would he know how much steel is in the original footing unless he poured it.and what does using a bondbeam on the top row have to do with it?:blink:


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

stacker said:


> i got a kick out of bwally's reply.
> what does any of the questions he asked have to do with what fakelayer asked in his post?
> i mean,how the hell would he know how much steel is in the original footing unless he poured it.and what does using a bondbeam on the top row have to do with it?:blink:


If you have no idea how much steel if any is in the footer, why would you even consider building on it?

There are ways to find out if there is steel in the footer, without using destructive testing methods.

If you don't build it properly it will fail, I would think a guy who borrows someones license would know that.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

Since he wasnt inclined to listen to the some of the best advice this masonry section has to offer, I decided to tell him what he wanted to hear. :w00t:

I hope he can find the epoxy all right


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

There are ways to find out if there is steel in the footer, without using destructive testing methods.

If you don't build it properly it will fail, I would think a guy who borrows someones license would know that.[/quote]

I'd be interested to know how to efficiently check for the amount & size of re-enforcement in that footing without tearing it out.

I would put a masonry sign on a footing like that if it's already proven itself for ? years.

Just quickly estimating the masonry, maybe 4000#'s?, on a 30 sq. foot footing? equals about 135 psf or 1 psi. Maybe my math is off?


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

We have had to hire engineers to check an existing slab to see if there was enough steel in the footer for a screen room, they use some sort of metal detector to determine the amount of steel in the footer.

The existing footer may have supported the old sign, adding more weight to it, or making it taller, it may not support it.

I am not fan of SOP engineering.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

It is an entry sign, not a daycare center. The slab obviously held the previous sign, the only concern is to tie the new sign to the old slab by stubbing in rebar.


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

bwalley said:


> We have had to hire engineers to check an existing slab to see if there was enough steel in the footer for a screen room, they use some sort of metal detector to determine the amount of steel in the footer.
> 
> The existing footer may have supported the old sign, adding more weight to it, or making it taller, it may not support it.
> 
> I am not fan of SOP engineering.


I thought this was a sign, didn't realize all of the horrible implications if that thing would settle or start leaning in 25 years. 

Uncommon sense should suffice I would think. Is it big? Is it strong? Will it hold a few block etc.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

lukachuki said:


> Uncommon sense should suffice I would think.


Oh, man. I am decidedly not a believer in sig lines, but if I was, that would be a prime candidate. :thumbsup:


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

bwalley said:


> If you have no idea how much steel if any is in the footer, why would you even consider building on it?
> 
> There are ways to find out if there is steel in the footer, without using destructive testing methods.
> 
> If you don't build it properly it will fail, I would think a guy who borrows someones license would know that.


well lets turn a $3,000.00 project into a $5,000.00 project,just so we will know how much steel is in the footer.its a sign for god's sake.if there were block on it to begin with,and it didnt fail.i doubt it will fail now.and i use my uncommon sense to determine that block or brick were on the sign to begin with,by knowing he said he would have to clean the footer.
and his original question was.

"Question is, once demo of old sign is done, I expect to have some irregularity in the surface of the footer on which we'll be laying up the new block. Can this generally be handled with a surface coat of mortar to smooth things out, provided the irregularities are made as small as possible during demo? I was also planning on rebar connection from old footer to new block."

so tell me bwally,put your licensed brain in gear,where is he worried the footing will fail?

look up any of my past posts and tell me anywhere that i posted that i borrowed anyone's license.i posted that i have teamed up with larger contractors on jobs where a bond is required,not a license.

and this comes from the bottom of my heart,and with offense intended...... 

STFU!!!!


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## fakie99 (Nov 18, 2008)

wow..alot of discussion for such a small project....

honestly, the ex. footer has been holding the existing masonry sign up for almost 9 years. it's just ugly, which is why it's being replaced. i really don't care how much steel is in the footer; it has stood the test of time so far with no cracks in the sign.

whoever posted above that this is just a matter of stubbing in rebar to connect the new structure was right. that, and leveling the ex footer, is really all there is to it.

thanks again for the replies.


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

fakie99 said:


> wow..alot of discussion for such a small project....


Thats why these forums exist!!


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

If I can just throw in my .02, if not to bad I am... :jester:

I know where BWalley is coming from - he has to worry about increased codes due to Hurricanes. That being said, as I recall the codes are based off of which zone you happen to be in & people farther away from the shore have less stringent requirements. So my question to BWalley would be, is a house built in a different zone not as good as one located on the coast?

The one reason most of us smack people for not putting locations in their profile is to help avoid talking about ice dams in Florida & dry rot in Seattle, etc... When replying please remember that many locations have different codes. Just because your code varies from others - it doesn't make it any better (you can always say - be glad your not here where we have to...). 

Fakie my opinion (assuming it meets your codes of course) - Drill & epoxy in some rebar, use the mud to fix the level, & post some pics - Good Luck


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

SLSTech said:


> & post some pics - Good Luck


Pics are always good!!!!


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## NAV (Sep 5, 2008)

bwalley said:


> We have had to hire engineers to check an existing slab to see if there was enough steel in the footer for a screen room, they use some sort of metal detector to determine the amount of steel in the footer.
> 
> The existing footer may have supported the old sign, adding more weight to it, or making it taller, it may not support it.
> 
> I am not fan of SOP engineering.


How much money do you think is in a project like this to be hiring engineers to check and see if there is enough steel in the footer?


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

NAV said:


> How much money do you think is in a project like this to be hiring engineers to check and see if there is enough steel in the footer?


It shouldn't matter how much is in the project, it still needs to be done properly, lack of funds is not a valid excuse for not being sure the job is done right.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

This got out of hand quickly. Drill and epoxy the rods like stated. How out of level is this footing? You do not want a perfectly smooth footing, a footing with alittle roughness helps bond. One thing I might do differently though is that if the footing is way out of level I would start at the low side with a full block and chop the bottom of each of the next block to make it level. I would rather start with a full block and work my way down to a 6" high rather then try to bed up the block or level out the footing. Ive worked on some wavy footings and it doesn't take much to take out your brick hammer and chop and inch or two off the bottom of a block if you only have to do it to a few block.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

Engineers??? Are you kidding. For a sign?? A sign that already has proven to have an adequate footing. Give me a break buildings were build for hundreds of years using empirical design and you are worried about a sign with a proven footing. Engineers and architects have their place but I know I wouldn't need one to hold my hand through a sign construction.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

NJ Brickie said:


> Engineers??? Are you kidding. For a sign?? A sign that already has proven to have an adequate footing. Give me a break buildings were build for hundreds of years using empirical design and you are worried about a sign with a proven footing. Engineers and architects have their place but I know I wouldn't need one to hold my hand through a sign construction.


The sign may have had an adequate footer for the sign, but it is now having a new sign added, only an engineer would be able to determine if the footer is adequate for the proposed sign.

I sure am glad I live in a state that has high standards of construction and expects contractors to build a safe structure even if it is just a sign.


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

bwalley said:


> The sign may have had an adequate footer for the sign, but it is now having a new sign added, only an engineer would be able to determine if the footer is adequate for the proposed sign.
> 
> I sure am glad I live in a state that has high standards of construction and expects contractors to build a safe structure even if it is just a sign.


The post has been stirred again, this thread is about to get longer!


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

When I hung a swing from the tree limb out front for my kids, I had three independent analyses done by separate engineering firms to confirm that the rope, limb and tree were strong enough to endure the stresses.

Doesn't everybody?


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

bwalley said:


> The sign may have had an adequate footer for the sign, but it is now having a new sign added, only an engineer would be able to determine if the footer is adequate for the proposed sign.
> 
> I sure am glad I live in a state that has high standards of construction and expects contractors to build a safe structure even if it is just a sign.


Are you  kidding me? High standards? Lets see hot mopping a shower, & where the he11 did my list of laughable codes go? Oh well I will find it later. 

Next --- Money is not an issue, but your building code has a limit set for roof to wall connections based on, uh yeah money. 

It is all politics for the most parts when it comes to the building codes. I recommend you get off your high horse & come back down to earth. I will grant you there are items that should be in the codes, a lot of items that are a joke, but you are pushing the limits of incredulity here.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

SLSTech said:


> I will grant you there are items that should be in the codes, a lot of items that are a joke, but you are pushing the limits of incredulity here.


Oh, no he's not. Incredulity has no limits. *Credulity* certainly does. :laughing:


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## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

THE LORD SPEAKS TO NOAH AND SAYS IN ONE YEAR I AM GOING TO MAKE IT RAIN AND COVER THE WHOLE EARTH WITH WATER UNTIL ALL IS DESTROYED BUT I WANT YOU TO SAVE THE RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE AND TWO OF EVERY KIND OF LIVING THING ON THE EARTH THEREFORE I AM COMMANDING YOU TO BUILD THE ARK

IN A FLASH OF LIGHTNING GOD DELIVERED THE SPECIFICATIONS F
FOR THE ARK

FEARFUL AND TREMBLING NOAH TOOK THE PLANS AND AGREED TO
BUILD THE ARK

REMEMBER SAID THE LORD YOU MUST COMPLETE THE ARK AND BRING EVERYTHING ABOARD IN ONE YEAR

EXACTLY ONE YEAR LATER A FIERCE STORM CLOUD FORMED AND ALL THE SEAS OF THE EARTH WENT INTO A TUMALT THE LORD SAW NOAH SITTING IN HIS YARD WEEPING

NOAH HE SAID WHERE IS THE ARK

LORD PLEASE FORGIVE ME CRIED NOAH I DID MY BEST BUT THERE WERE BIG PROBLEMS FIRST I HAD TO GET A PERMIT FOR CONSTRUCTION AND YOUR PLANS DID NOT COMPLY WITH THE CODES I HAD TO HIRE AN ENGINEERING FIRM AND REDRAW THE PLANS

THEN I GOT INTO A FIHT WITH OSHA OVER WHEARTHE OR NOT THE ARK NEEDED A FIRE SPRINKLER SYSTEM AND FLOATION DEVICES

THEN MY NEIGHBOR OBJECTED CLAIMING I WAS VIOLATING ZONING ORDINANCES BY BUILDING THE ARK IN MY FRONT YARD SI I HAD TO GET A VARIANCE FROM THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION

I HAD PROBLEMS GETTING ENOUGH WOOD FOR THE ARK BECAUSE THERE WAS A BAN ON CUTTING TREES TO PROTECT THE SPOTTED OWL I FINALLY CONVINCED THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE THAT I NEEDED THE WOOD TO SAVE THE OWLS

HOWEVER THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE WONT LET ME CATCH ANY OWLS SO NO OWLS

THE CARPENTERS FORMED A UNION AND WENT OUT ON STRIKE I HAD TO NEGOTIATE A SETTLEMENT WITH THE NATIONAL LABOR UNION NOW I HAVE 16 CARPANTERS ON THE ARK BUT STILL NO OWLS

WHEN I STARTED ROUNDING UP THE OTHER ANIMALS I GOT SUED BY ANIMAL RIGHTS GROUP THEY OBJECTED TO ME ONLY TAKING TWO OF EACH KIND ABOARD

JUST WHEN I GOT THE SUIT DISMISSED THE EPA NOTIFIED ME THAT I COULD NOT COMPLETE THE ARK WITHOUT FILING AN ENVIROMENTAL INPACT STATEMENT ON YOUR PROPOSED FLOOD THEY DIDNT TAKE VERY KINDLY TO THE IDEA THAT THEY NO JURISDICTION OVER THE CONDUCT OF THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE

THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEER DEMANDED A MAP OF THE PROPOSED NEW FLOOD PLAIN I SENT THEM A GLOBE

RIGHT NOW I AM TRYING TO RESOLVE A COMPLAINT FILED WITH THE EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY COMMISSION THAT I AM PRATICING DISCRIMINATION BY NOT TAKING GODLESS UNBELEIVING PEOPLE ABOARD

THE IRS HAS SEIZED ALL MY ASSETS CLAIMING THAT I AM BUILDING THE ARK IN PREPERATION TO FLEE THE COUNTRY TO AVOID PAYING TAXES

I JUST GOT NOTICE FROM THE STATE THAT I OWE SOME KIND OF USER TAX AND FAILED TO REGISTER THE ARK AS A RECREATIONAL WATER CRAFT

FINALLY THE ACLU GOT THE COURTS TO ISSUE AN INJUNCTION AGANIST FUTHER CONSTRUCTION OF THE ARK SAYING THAT SINCE GOD IS FLOODING THE EARTH IT IS A RELIGIOUS EVENT AND THEREFORE UNCONSTITUTIONAL

I REALLY DONT THINK I CAN FINISH THE ARK FOR ANOTHER 5 OR 6 YEARS NOAH WAILED

THE SKY BEGAN TO CLEAR THE SUN BEGAN TO SHINE AND THE SEAS TO CALM A RAINBOW ARCHED ACROSS THE SKY

NOAH LOOKED UP HOPEFULLY YOU MEAN YOU ARE NOT GOING TO DESTROY THE EARTH LORD

NO SAID THE LORD SADLY BWALLY ALREADY HAS:laughing::laughing::laughing:

i could see your point wall-e if they were going to build........i take that back,even with 3/4 of my brain shut down i cant see your point.you are an over educated idiot,that has no common sense.you remind me of our local building inspector.who wanted a group of brick masons to tear down 10 foot of a wall because he was around to count the number of screws used to screw on the outside drywall.he was to the point he was going to shut the job down,until the super on the job took him by the arm and showed him he could count the screws from inside the building.to save face he made the super install 7 screws.

we have said this before bwally and ill say it again,stick with what you do,heat and air.leave the masonry threads to masons.


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## 3-D Mason (Dec 17, 2007)

here here!!:clap::clap::clap:


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

What we have here is an example
of the Avis Inspectoris Vulgaris
(the common inspector bird).
Able to swallow code books whole,
and regurgitate them on demand.
However this is completely instinctive
behavior, and makes no allowance for 
the thought process.
One hopes that the lack of ability to
adapt would lead to an early extinction,
however their prolific numbers seem 
to insure their survival into the far
distant future.
Perhaps one day there will be an
open season on them and their numbers
will be reduced.


Let us hope.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

neolitic said:


> What we have here is an example
> of the Avis Inspectoris Vulgaris
> (the common inspector bird).


That. Was. Absolutely precious.

:thumbsup::thumbup::notworthy:thumbup::thumbsup:


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## MasonryPro (Apr 7, 2009)

*Leveling Block*

This option will take longer, but you can always saw cut the bottom of the block to adjust to many slopes of concrete footings. This way you'll end up with a level first course of block, no matter how unlevel the footing is.


Mastercraft Masonry
Professional Masonry Since 1974
Oregon / Washington


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