# Treads and Risers



## JTemple (Oct 20, 2012)

I am here to learn about trades I no nothing of. 

I do not know whether to call a flooring co. or a carpenter. I want to either cap or replace my interior treads and risers. Please do tell, is it flooring or carpentry. I would also appreciate a clue as to how to find a capable and responsible company. I know, references BUT one ends up getting names for the only 3-4 clients that were not unhappy. I hope to better my odds here.

Example: If I were to hire a painter, the second I realized he had no canvas/cotton drop sheets he'd get the bums rush. (the same if I see disposable brushes and cartons of masking tape) Are there similar clues regarding flooring and carpentry?


----------



## KnottyWoodwork (May 23, 2010)

It's both, imo. I've done them as a flooring company and a carpentry company.


----------



## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

You could use either. There are carpenters and flooring companies who know how to do it and some that don't. Your best bet is a stair company but they aren't nearly as common.


----------



## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

higher end flooring dealers usually have both flooring and stair installers that are employed in house, others have subs that do it


----------



## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

I sniff a homeowner?


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Thank you for posting on Contractors Talk. The moderators of this forum would prefer if you posted DIY or do it yourself type questions at our extremely helpful sister site www.diychatroom.com .

Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused you and we urge you to participate in this forum. 

Who am I kidding... Carry On :laughing:


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 10, 2010)

Disposable brushes and making tape make a bad painter??? Huh ??

Hire a flooring contractor.


----------



## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Unless I'm mistaken(which happens all the time) JTemple is moving over here from the painting forum.

If I'm right then make sure you post an intro.:thumbup:


----------



## JTemple (Oct 20, 2012)

*What? Painters are not allowed to own houses? WHY?*



Rich D. said:


> I sniff a homeowner?



Absolutely, I am a home owner. I am also one the best wood finishers and painters in the business. It IS because of my contracting experience that I seek the advice of other pros when in doubt about how to proceed in an area where my knowledge is lacking. There are very few left who can do any variety of "French Polish" and my hand rubbed finishes are in the homes from Forest Hill to the Bridal Path. I am also aware that Joe Average HO thinks a good paint job, "nothing to it", then end up paying double for a job they should have called a pro for in the first place! I look for pros if its not my field.

Your sniffer is in good shape. I suspect you of being a HO, also.


----------



## JTemple (Oct 20, 2012)

*Poor tools indicate a lack of concerned about Quality*



[email protected] said:


> Disposable brushes and making tape make a bad painter??? Huh ??
> 
> Hire a flooring contractor.


In my opinion, yes. Disposable brushes leave hairs all over the place, have a lousy edge and cost more over a very short time. It also shows a lack of caring. As for my comment about masking tape: I use it but NOT TO CUT IN, nor do I use it by the carton. I use it to mask splatter or on a very few of my Faux finishes. All hard ware and fixtures are removed so no masking there. Plastic drop sheets shift, track and pose great danger of spreading mess, they are only suitable for covering objects. If I do not see good tools and canvas drops, they do not get to work for me!


----------



## JTemple (Oct 20, 2012)

*Yup! Your quite right*



EthanB said:


> Unless I'm mistaken(which happens all the time) JTemple is moving over here from the painting forum.
> 
> If I'm right then make sure you post an intro.:thumbup:


Have we met there? I haven't been there for some time but I am not "moving" as such. I don't need painting advise. I belong to PAINTERS, HVAC and CONTRACTORS. Is this unacceptable?

I was at HVAC to get advice on my new furnace install which was not going well for THIRTY DAYS! All is well now and amazingly, I am keeping the installer as my go to heating/plumbing guys.

OK, INTRO: What is expected on an introduction.


----------



## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

JTemple said:


> Absolutely, I am a home owner. I am also one the best wood finishers and painters in the business. It IS because of my contracting experience that I seek the advice of other pros when in doubt about how to proceed in an area where my knowledge is lacking. There are very few left who can do any variety of "French Polish" and my hand rubbed finishes are in the homes from Forest Hill to the Bridal Path. I am also aware that Joe Average HO thinks a good paint job, "nothing to it", then end up paying double for a job they should have called a pro for in the first place! I look for pros if its not my field.
> 
> Your sniffer is in good shape. I suspect you of being a HO, also.


It's nothing personal. You should know as a professional, especially in the trades, that if you are brand new to a forum and start posting some rather obvious questions that are suspect, you may in fact receive less than favorable responses.

That would be unless you posted an intro telling us who you were, then we'd say "oh!....OK....it's so and so....they're cool"


----------



## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

JTemple said:


> OK, INTRO: What is expected on an introduction.


"Hi, I am Kent. I am a cabinet maker from Maine."

That's about it


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

hi Kent..


----------



## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

JTemple said:


> I suspect you of being a HO, also.



:laughing::thumbup:


----------



## JTemple (Oct 20, 2012)

*Intro now up*

My intro is now up. Thanks for the "heads-up". It is never my intention to irritate.


----------



## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

Kent Whitten said:


> "Hi, I am Kent. I am a cabinet maker from Maine."
> 
> That's about it


Welcome to the forum Kent.:thumbsup:
Please be sure to post in the appropriate sections.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Welcome Jennifer. Thanks for joining. Please read through the forums and participate in the ones you have something to offer. The best painter I know is a woman. Nice to have you here


----------



## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

JTemple said:


> Have we met there? I haven't been there for some time but I am not "moving" as such. I don't need painting advise. I belong to PAINTERS, HVAC and CONTRACTORS. Is this unacceptable?


Nope, it's totally fine. That was my subtle way of telling the folks here that you are a real contractor who participates on one of the forums in this group. First time posters can get directed to the DIY forum pretty fast if they haven't established that they are actually contractors.

Welcome to CT.


----------



## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Sir Mixalot said:


> Welcome to the forum Kent.:thumbsup:
> Please be sure to post in the appropriate sections.


wtf would I want to do that for? I'll post wherever I like Mr. sir muckymuck :laughing:


----------



## JTemple (Oct 20, 2012)

dave_k said:


> Unlike a lot of the stairs in USA which are built as rough stairs by the framers and then clad by the finishing carpenters most stairs in Ontario are built offsite and installed as a unit in the house. Replacing treads is difficult to the point of being more expensive than replacing the entire stair carriage. I've been asked to do a few of these and every time I've ended up replacing the stairs and usually putting in new hardwood flooring as well.
> 
> You can get caps for the treads and risers but they add to the total rise of the stair so the finished floor heights at the top and bottom of the stairs and landings will have to be accounted for of you may have to live with an uncomfortable or dangerous transition. if you go that route a hardwood flooring company would be the place to start looking. They are kind of a band aid solution and stick out as amateur to an experienced eye. If I was to go to the trouble of redoing my stairs I wouldn't want to be reminded of how I cheaped out every time I walked up them but that's easy for me to say, I have a shop in my back yard and I can build stairs ;-)
> 
> To be honest the toughest part of capping the stairs is the finishing. With your skills you just need a half decent finishing carpenter to fit and install the tread caps and risers. Many flooring companies sell the tread caps, I believe HD and Rona may as well


I did write a "stair company" in St. Catherines Canada, asking about getting a quote. No reply ever came. I was doubtful before I wrote because the pamphlet as all very high end, complicated looking stairs. (St. Catherines the closest city to me)

No, I wont live with a dangerous transition! If replacing treads and risers is not feasible then I will replace the whole business. I don't mind engineered off site, I just doubt they would have a fit for an old, wonky 1912 house, am I wrong about that? What would I need to look for to insure quality of manufacture and are there any cautions on installation. Right, finishing is my specialty. I just need the raw stairs worthy of finishing. I was in the process of stripping the stairway but maybe I should give that up. It sounds like I am wasting time and material. I'll start the doors now, instead.

The truth is I need an expert to tell me what to do about both stairs and floors in this house. Lower floors are buckled to the tune of 1-2" in the rises. It appears the sub floor planking is fine. 

Sadly, neighbor references are not worth much. I watched the roofers replace my neighbors eves troughs and down spouts last fall. This fall its already leaking everywhere and buckets around their house to protect the garden. (DANG LUCKY ME! I almost hired the guy.)

Its finding people that can be trusted that is the problem on every job! Even when I hired painters I would end up using only one in 3, the rest were to careless, sloppy and unskilled.


----------



## dave_k (Sep 28, 2010)

JTemple said:


> (St. Catherines the closest city to me)


Wine country...lucky gal!! Me and momma get down there once a month or so to stock the cellar!


JTemple said:


> I don't mind engineered off site, I just doubt they would have a fit for an old, wonky 1912 house, am I wrong about that?


 That's not a big deal. Someone will come and measure up.



JTemple said:


> What would I need to look for to insure quality of manufacture and are there any cautions on installation.


 I don't know anyone down Niagara. I would ask for references, if it was a dedicated stair shop "I" would visit their shop and want to see some raw stock, industrial machinery, evidence that they have work in progress. I would also want to see that they did work for builders, no stair shop can survive in Ontario without either charging a fortune to do super custom work or have some builders in their portfolio. 

If you can see some of their product installed, the stair treads should be level in both directions (i-phone level app is great for that) walk up and down the stairs, even if the house is out of level there should be no detectable deviation in run and rise through the line of travel, if the floors are out of level where you naturally step on and off the stair should be the same unit rise as the staircase. There should be no squeaks movement or deflection. All joints should be tight. There should be no visible fasteners, screw holes should be plugged flush (better) or button capped. The railings should be consistent in height firm and solid, the newel solid as a rock the spindles evenly spaces and built to code (4" sphere can't pass through). If you can see under the carriage treads in housed stringers should be wedged tight with hardwood and glued. 

I wouldn't disqualify a carpenter over a stair shop, in fact this would probably be your best solution as long as you can see his work and he has references that he's built interior stairs of the quality you are looking for. For a reno like that it's a lot less bother to have a guy that can do the whole job from demo to finish. If he's good he will work out a lot of potential problems as he goes.




JTemple said:


> Right, finishing is my specialty. I just need the raw stairs worthy of finishing.


 That usually what you get from a stair shop.



JTemple said:


> I was in the process of stripping the stairway but maybe I should give that up. It sounds like I am wasting time and material. I'll start the doors now, instead.


If you can retain the character of the house and save the $10-15k it's gonna cost you for stairs by refinishing you may want to carry on. People value the refinished original more then new materials and if you're a good finisher you can make the most of what you got.


----------



## JTemple (Oct 20, 2012)

If you can retain the character of the house and save the $10-15k it's gonna cost you for stairs by refinishing you may want to carry on. People value the refinished original more then new materials and if you're a good finisher you can make the most of what you got.[/QUOTE]

Quite right about the "character of the house" having value. We bought it because it had not been renovated to any great degree and it maintains all of the original wood work not refinished. Thus I get to do the finish and can maintain that old patina that strippers tend to destroy. It even has one of those built in china cabinets!

Capping might be the way to go because the floors need work. Perhaps if I get the stairs done first the flooring guys could arrange level landings. Does this sound reasonable.

The treads are the biggest problem, worn badly. What about a leveling compound on the treads? One set of rails & spindles was a really dumb HO replace that is REALLY, REALLY, Ugly and out of place with the rest of the stairs. There are 4 segments for 3 floors.

My brother was a carpenter. The best I ever knew. He could do it all from framing to fine furniture. I wish I could find a guy like him. Sadly he died a couple of years ago in a kayak during a sudden storm.


----------



## dave_k (Sep 28, 2010)

JTemple said:


> Capping might be the way to go because the floors need work. Perhaps if I get the stairs done first the flooring guys could arrange level landings. Does this sound reasonable.


 The OBC says no more than 1/4" variation between any 2 risers. personally I like to nail it but that 1/4" is the code and other than that it's what you find acceptable. 



JTemple said:


> The treads are the biggest problem, worn badly. What about a leveling compound on the treads? One set of rails & spindles was a really dumb HO replace that is REALLY, REALLY, Ugly and out of place with the rest of the stairs. There are 4 segments for 3 floors.


In my opinion it would be a good idea to get all that cleaned up and consistent one way or another otherwise it detracts from the rest of the good work you are doing and your investment in your home.



JTemple said:


> My brother was a carpenter. The best I ever knew. He could do it all from framing to fine furniture. I wish I could find a guy like him. Sadly he died a couple of years ago in a kayak during a sudden storm.


I'm truly sorry for your loss. It's a tragedy when someone doing a positive and wholesome activity like kayaking gets killed or injured. I'm a lifelong cyclist and this summer I was struck by a car but thankfully walked away with minor injuries. One minute you're doing something positive that embraces life and in an instant it turns to tragedy. I don't know your brother but I know a lot of carpenters and other tradesmen that have a love of physical activity and the outdoors. The outdoor physical aspects of the job are part of what attracts us to the trade. I can only speak for myself in saying that nothing can keep me from doing the things I enjoy, I know the risks and I accept them. I'm sure your brother accepted and embraced the risks in kayaking as well.

One final important note.

It is really hard to find a good carpenter in Ontario. The average age of a journeyman in Ontario is in the 50's. We used to rely on immigration from Europe for our skilled tradesmen where they have a tradition of trades education and even job like waiting on tables are considered a profession that requires training and skills. Since the 1970 few tradesmen are willing to come to Canada any more. There is no longer any reason for them to come, their standard of living and wages are higher over there and with the EU mobility there are no national borders.

I would urge anyone in Ontario that understands the difficulty we are having recruiting quality young people into the trades and training them properly to support the College of Trades. http://www.collegeoftrades.ca/ Too many people treat the trades as an occupation of last resort. It's hard to find a carpenter that can come into your home, size up a job like your stairs and then perform the work to professional standards but that's really the baseline of what anyone calling themselves a carpenter should be able to do.

It's not just hard to find a carpenter for your house but there is a serious shortage of carpenters and other trades in heavy construction and infrastructure. Without the millwrights that know how to rebuild generators and gas turbine, steam fitters, pipe fitters, boilermakers and welders to keep nuclear power and natural gas pumping stations going power transmission electricians to keep the grid up....we are headed for some serious economic bottlenecks unless we start training people before the current generation of tradesmen retires.


----------



## JTemple (Oct 20, 2012)

I passed your link on to my son, the one that wants to become an electrician.


----------



## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

:blink:


----------



## JTemple (Oct 20, 2012)

*Dave_K*

Dave_K, Thank you for your kind words. Yes, my brother lived all of his life to the fullest knowing full well the risks. Hubby was a long distance cyclist though these days he just zips around the Niagara Region. We seem to be a family of trades and sports. Dad was an electrician that raced cars and boats, Rick was a carpenter that built and used kayaks, me I am a painter/wood finisher that also cycles and lifts weights. (Repetitions not bulking up!)

A grave concern I have with younger people entering the trades are developers of "housing projects". It seems they build 'em like a factory. Say an electrician's apprentice, he may spend all his apprenticeship hours putting in the switch boxes. That's it, that's all, his job is switch boxes, an other will do only light fixtures etc. I expect its all about speed and efficiency. I know this is done, I just don't know how it can be legal.
It will not produce reliable trades men and looks to me like a simple way to get cheap labor.

My plumbers are here tomorrow, I will ask them about reliable, local floor/stair/carpenters.


----------



## JTemple (Oct 20, 2012)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Jen how old are your kids:blink:


My "KIDS" are 34 and 28. Its the 28 that wants to become an electrician. Fear of unemployment is slowing him down. I told him to make a move before he hits the 30 because I suspect it will get more difficult. (he is like his father, he procrastinates to no end and to my great frustration!)


----------



## dave_k (Sep 28, 2010)

JTemple said:


> A grave concern I have with younger people entering the trades are developers of "housing projects". It seems they build 'em like a factory. Say an electrician's apprentice, he may spend all his apprenticeship hours putting in the switch boxes. That's it, that's all, his job is switch boxes, an other will do only light fixtures etc. I expect its all about speed and efficiency. I know this is done, I just don't know how it can be legal.
> It will not produce reliable trades men and looks to me like a simple way to get cheap labor.


Many of the electricians doing new homes don't even use apprentices. They have an electrician of record, they have a few apprentices that do the terminations and use labourers to pull wire and nail boxes on the wall. I had a kid working for me who left his uncle 's company because he refused to sign him up as an apprentice after 3 years. He said his uncle held out an apprenticeship to his guys like a carrot on a stick. 

To be fair I believe the electrical trade has a separate certification for residential, industrial electricians and maybe even maintenance electricians in Ontario so if the guys working on tracts were signed up, went to school and switched tasks every once in awhile they would be competent electricians. 

The problem is you get an ambitious kid who works hard hoping to earn an apprenticeship but gets fed a line and paid minimum minimum wage for 3 years. Not all contractors do this but the way our industry works it's a pretty darn good business plan. It sours the kids on the whole industry. I offered to sign that kid I hired an apprenticeship as a carpenter, he was a great worker but wanted no part of it, he just wanted to earn money to go to Alberta.


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Yes, the wear can be filled in place. Most stairs could then be veneered if you want. The filled portions don't dent as easily as the natural wood parts, so over time you may be able to see the patches telegraph through.


----------



## JTemple (Oct 20, 2012)

hdavis said:


> Yes, the wear can be filled in place. Most stairs could then be veneered if you want. The filled portions don't dent as easily as the natural wood parts, so over time you may be able to see the patches telegraph through.


Thank you very much for that. Given that the structure and treads seem sound under foot, this sounds like a very viable possibility. What about splicing in a wood of like kind to level the wear? (Nuts?)


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

JTemple said:


> Thank you very much for that. Given that the structure and treads seem sound under foot, this sounds like a very viable possibility. What about splicing in a wood of like kind to level the wear? (Nuts?)


Maybe (to both 'what about' and 'nuts'). 

It isn't usually done, but it's possible if you can set up a router and planing jig, and drive any nails down out of the way. Usually I see the nosing worn as well, so it would have to be replaced where it's worn. I'd be concerned that there may not be enough room to get a router in there to plane everything that needs to be planed. If worse came to worse, you could always use a trim router - it's smaller, but it will take longer.

The general flow would be:

Determine largest area to be planed.
Make router planing jig to match area.
Make sure nails, etc won't interfere.
Plane stairs.
Chisel to make the round planed corners square.
Glue in new piece (slightly proud, and the edges can be slightly angle cut to be pressed down in tight during glue up), weight with sand bag while glue sets.
Sand to existing tread level.

How the nosing is handled (if you need to do much with it at all) will be tricky. I'd be inclined to remove the nosing after the new patch is in, and replace with new nosing to minimize the glue line.


----------



## imdskydiver (Apr 19, 2011)

hdavis said:


> Maybe (to both 'what about' and 'nuts').
> 
> It isn't usually done, but it's possible if you can set up a router and planing jig, and drive any nails down out of the way. Usually I see the nosing worn as well, so it would have to be replaced where it's worn. I'd be concerned that there may not be enough room to get a router in there to plane everything that needs to be planed. If worse came to worse, you could always use a trim router - it's smaller, but it will take longer.
> 
> ...


The best option is to sand the bad spots out if you are able to. Patches And splices will really draw your attention to the patch unless you are really good at touch up's and graining. And let's face it. If your wooden stairway is already are worn imagine how quick something like wood filler or a piece of veneer will wear out , not to mention how much it will stick out like a sore thumb. 
If your stairs are really bad. A tear out is your best option. Take everything off to the stringers and start again. For me it only takes about 3 days from start to finish including the handrails. 
I don't live in your part of the country. But I am sure that there are lots of professional stair builders that can do the same for you.


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

imdskydiver said:


> Patches And splices will really draw your attention to the patch unless you are really good at touch up's and graining. And let's face it. If your wooden stairway is already are worn imagine how quick something like wood filler or a piece of veneer will wear out , not to mention how much it will stick out like a sore thumb.


I'm betting she has pine stairs - not unusual for the age of her house. She's a high end painter, so she could do any blending that's needed, and she wants to retain the original stairs as part of the character of the house.

I totally agree that it won't look right with a clear finish. The other direction that's more flexible is to turn it into a decorative feature, but I don't think she's looking for that. It's also sometimes possible to remove the treads, do whatever you want to do to the wear, and reinstall them upside down. How much work is involved in any option is tough to guess without seeing the stairs, so I'm just putting some options out there.


----------



## JTemple (Oct 20, 2012)

Well, got up nerve enough to look under the carpet. Its all got to go and at the very least, new treads and risers. The treads have had 1/4" plywood over laid. It looks like crap. Not surprised, really, I would have been surprised if they'd been any good.


----------



## Mike Tyrie (Nov 28, 2012)

I would just hire a good trim carpenter if it were me, actually no, i would hire myself... but you should hire a good trim carpenter.


----------



## JTemple (Oct 20, 2012)

Mike Tyrie said:


> I would just hire a good trim carpenter if it were me, actually no, i would hire myself... but you should hire a good trim carpenter.


I was thinking that very thing!
Thinking of visiting the falls any time soon? :laughing:
I'm setting up a coffee date with HO who is also restoring a house, frame and clap board with plenty of ginger bread. It seems to me they will have used a carpenter along the line. I can see that they are both fussy and careful. I hope to get some other referrals as well. (And possibly some work)


----------

