# Painting with a HLVP cant get it smooth



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Ok im not expert on spraying with my Apollo HVLP but how smooth should i really expect the finish to be. I have just tried spraying some clear on built ins and im sure it should be smoother. I have hundreds of bumps everywhere on the flats and very close to runs on the uprights. 

but if i dial down the feed rate it feels rough to the touch. Is this just user error or just the nature of HVLP finishes. i dont expect a mirror finish but good enough so that it looks nice. 

Maybe its the finishes im using which are general finishes water based?

Any tips on getting this finish smoother?

Sprayer is a apollo 1035 so its one of their better models and im using a 1.3mm tip


----------



## shakey0818 (Oct 28, 2012)

Try a search or posting at PaintTalk there are tons of threads about this.


----------



## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

BCC, I don't know much about turbine guns...may I suggest you go over the Target Coatings webpage, click on their Finishers Forum and start reading. The GF stuff is also good stuff and acts similar to some of the Target Coatings stuff. Jeff Weiss, owner of Target Coatings is always on that forum and he knows his stuff. You might be able to find a solution by just reading other peoples problems and solutions...I know I did. 

That forum is not highly active, but active enough. Its populated by woodworkers and professional finishers so you might be better off there then here.

I know that if I am getting water-bornes close to running I am spraying it on WAYYYY too heavy. Waterbornes like light coats...they level out well. It is honestly something I still have to mentally be telling myself when spraying.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I'm putting it on heavy as it looks like glass when I look right after but then it has bumps everywhere even on flats. I'm sure there's a technical term for these and they do sand out but would prefer to do. 3 coats and be done. I will go over to these sites and check out the threads.


----------



## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> I'm putting it on heavy as it looks like glass when I look right after but then it has bumps everywhere even on flats. I'm sure there's a technical term for these and they do sand out but would prefer to do. 3 coats and be done. I will go over to these sites and check out the threads.


? Do you have a photo? Are the dust nibs settling in the film before it is dry? In a seventy degree shop my coats flash off in about 5 minutes or so. If you put it on too heavy it takes a long time to flash off and alot of debris can settle in.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

TBFGhost said:


> ? Do you have a photo? Are the dust nibs settling in the film before it is dry? In a seventy degree shop my coats flash off in about 5 minutes or so. If you put it on too heavy it takes a long time to flash off and alot of debris can settle in.


It's not debris on the flats its more like little hills all over the finish as soon as it's gone on. I will try and get a pic on the next coat. 

How smooth should I except as a "smooth" finish


----------



## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

I would bet your not geting to up front sanding done to a good enough level. It has to be better than when you use petro based products. Sanding is the main trick to using waterbornes. When you spray a surface with small bumps, the surface tension will level out, but when the solvent/water evaps out, the finish shrinks down, exposing the bumps again. We denib with #220 or so sponges lightly after stain, & again after one coat of sealer. Then it's just one coat of top coat. It results in a very nice consistent finish, even on poplar.

We've been using George Cash's stuff (recently deceased) for over 20 years, even as it changed names, & ownership a few times. He was on the leading edge of waterborne developement even though we've tried many other products. Try "Aqua Seal" for sealer. http://aquacoat.com/collections/products/products/aqua-seal-sanding-sealer:thumbsup:
It goes on like water, & seals like nothing else. 

There are several good top coats, depending on how tough the finish needs to be. Even the std gloss is great though. http://aquacoat.com/collections/products/products/aqua-coat-clear-topcoat

The table top, & poly is even tougher.

The new company name changed to "Aqua Coat", & is now owned by Brian Barry...a good guy to deal with. We did close to 200 5's last year of his product. 

The equipment cleaner is waterbased, & is nothing short of amazing. It'll even disolve construction adhesive off you!:laughing:
Joe


----------



## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

Man I type slow!


----------



## JackP23 (Jan 1, 2013)

Jeff at www.[B]homesteadfinishing[/B]products.com has some good info on spaying. Might be worth a visit. 

__________
Mike


----------



## JackP23 (Jan 1, 2013)

Railman said:


> I would bet your not geting to up front sanding done to a good enough level. It has to be better than when you use petro based products. Sanding is the main trick to using waterbornes. When you spray a surface with small bumps, the surface tension will level out, but when the solvent/water evaps out, the finish shrinks down, exposing the bumps again. We denib with #220 or so sponges lightly after stain, & again after one coat of sealer. Then it's just one coat of top coat. It results in a very nice consistent finish, even on poplar.
> 
> We've been using George Cash's stuff (recently deceased) for over 20 years, even as it changed names, & ownership a few times. He was on the leading edge of waterborne developement even though we've tried many other products. Try "Aqua Seal" for sealer. http://aquacoat.com/collections/products/products/aqua-seal-sanding-sealer:thumbsup:
> It goes on like water, & seals like nothing else.
> ...


200 5's.........What the hell.....were you building a stairway to heaven?

__________
Mike


----------



## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

200 5's = 800 homes @ about 35' of baluster rails per. Would have been more, but about 1/3 is now iron balusters.


----------



## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Spraying water based is tough. Hell, spraying anything is tough. You need to get damn near the exact amount on that you are supposed to or it either drips or is rough to the touch. Almost always, it is an issue with your set up. Too much or little flow, too much or little air pressure. Also, temp, humidity, dust floating around, recoat times, adhesion issues, viscosity...it's not easy, I can attest to that myself. It is a frustrating endeavor. 

It sounds like orange peel.

It also sounds a little too heavy.


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

TBFGhost said:


> ...
> I know that if I am getting water-bornes close to running I am spraying it on WAYYYY too heavy. Waterbornes like light coats...they level out well. ...


Yes.


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

What sheen are you using? Gloss? Satin?


----------



## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

CarpenterSFO said:


> 2 more tips to add to the library:
> 
> Make sure you're filtering your finish when you fill your cup. Don't rely on the filter in the gun. In my experience water-borne finishes are much more likely to have particles in the can.
> 
> Make sure your turbine is well clear of the spray booth. Because a turbine produces warm dry air, any overspray that gets into the turbine and past the air filter hardens to a little gummy particle by the time it gets sprayed out of the tip.


 I was going to mention the filter, but forgot! 

As far as orange peel, he said it was going on as a wet coat. 

My money is on the sand prep work. Turbines can definately overheat the air, & prematurely dry the finish before it can level though. Just one many reasons to use a conversion gun, at least in a shop.


----------



## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> It's not debris on the flats its more like little hills all over the finish as soon as it's gone on. I will try and get a pic on the next coat.
> 
> How smooth should I except as a "smooth" finish


Smooth. I have gotten mine to the point where it would be slick to the touch if it weren't for dust....I really need a booth. My typical schedule on clear finiah maple is as follows.

Sand wood to 150.
Wipe on coat of dewaxed shellac for some amber color.
If I have some EM1000 I will put on two coats, about about a half hour apart on each. 
Sand with 400 grit to denib and cut the grain raise off.
Then it's two or three coats of EM6000, 7000 or 9000. Mostly use 7000. 

I just did some drawer parts this way earlier this week. They were almost as smooth as the pre finished ply I used for the bottoms. A quick once over with some 1000 grit followed by some wax should make them feel real nice.


----------



## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Which General Finish product? They make more than one. Which sheen?

Are you applying the sanding sealer first?

Tip size on gun. How many stage turbine?

Get a wet mill gauge (if you don't know how to use one, I have a video on my YouTube channel). Only way to know if you are putting the product on at the proper thickness. 

Do you have a gun leader on the turbine hose? How long is the hose?

You should get a glass smooth finish.

Tom


----------



## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Couple more questions,

What wood is the built-in made out of?

Did you stain the built-in, if so what type of stain (oil, water, gel)? How long did the stain dry.

If you want to come practice, I just ordered 6-55 gallon drums of Kem Aqua MRE and 3-55 gallons drums of Kem Aqua sanding sealer. It will all get applied over the next 120 days. 

Tom


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> Couple more questions,
> 
> What wood is the built-in made out of?
> 
> ...


What are you going to be finishing? That's more than a couple kitchen cabinets.


----------



## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> What are you going to be finishing? That's more than a couple kitchen cabinets.


For a job I thought was dead. Out of the blue I got an email, saying it's a go.

There is also 350 gallons of a water based custom dye I mixed. SW is batching it for me. 

I'll spray the dye through the Fuji connected to a pressure pot.

The KA will be sprayed through the FF395AAA. 

That is after--------------------------------- I fabricate 480 of these doors, 240 vanities and valances. 

https://picasaweb.google.com/tbadernwi/ClevelandRocks

Tom


----------



## Damon T (Oct 13, 2008)

BCC Could be solvent entrapment. And / or could be the underlying coating not cured enough and causing problems with topcoat. Also, what are you wiping down the surface with after sanding? If you are using a traditional tack cloth with a WB coating that could be giving you trouble.

You might want to add a little extender to it, and also dial down your fluid a little and do some test sprays on some scrap. Make sure you're getting good atomization on floor paper or something where you can see the dots.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Thanks guys I will get back with some answers. Been busy on that built in so ain't had a chance. One thing though it did level out over night much better than it looked wet. Still rough to the touch and not smooth on some surfaces though.


----------



## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

BCConstruction said:


> Thanks guys I will get back with some answers. Been busy on that built in so ain't had a chance. One thing though it did level out over night much better than it looked wet. Still rough to the touch and not smooth on some surfaces though.


Waterborne goes on "rough" and levels out as it dries. It's sort of the opposite of solvent which looks it's best right off the gun.


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> For a job I thought was dead. Out of the blue I got an email, saying it's a go.
> 
> There is also 350 gallons of a water based custom dye I mixed. SW is batching it for me.
> 
> ...


Hotel vanities and closet doors? That's some volume.


----------



## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Dragging this a little off-topic, I suppose:
> 
> Are those hotel vanities? That's some volume; more manufacturing than fabrication. Are you going to expand? Sub it out? That's a fairly tight schedule.


Yes, vanities and closet doors are for a hotel.

Just fabricating, I think I have it figured out. We'll see. 

No plans on expanding.

Subbing out the door center panels and stave core rails and styles only. All else will be done here (except for the install of course).

They're not real good a commentating. The fabrication/installation in the photo album was a 3 day turn around. Got the call on a Monday night, had to be installed in Cleveland (375 miles east of my location) by noon that Friday. I had no clue how to make the panels when I said I could do it. Sometimes stupid takes over. Lost part of Tuesday getting material. Their overnight shipping for the handles, track, flush pulls, legs was more than double the cost of the products. I called them on Thursday night told them I was ready to leave for the install. They delayed for 3 weeks. At least I was ready. 

The doors were the wrong size for the opening, right size to their order. They ordered 26" doors instead of 2/6 doors. The reason for the gap and side fillers to make it work. I did not find out the opening was larger until I was leaving for the install. Oh well, made it work. They were also 4" to tall.

Tom


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

tjbnwi said:


> .... Sometimes stupid takes over....
> Tom


Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Beautiful work.


----------



## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Beautiful work.


Thanks Bob.

Tom


----------



## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

That's quite a project Tom... Hope it all works out for you!:thumbsup:

Joe


----------



## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Railman said:


> That's quite a project Tom... Hope it all works out for you!:thumbsup:
> 
> Joe


Me too.

Tom


----------



## Rustbucket (May 22, 2009)

I find with HVLP you need to move the gun closer than you would with a high pressure gun. You may want to back up a bit on the pressure and move a little slower too.


----------

