# Pricing question



## Stonemason35 (Jun 11, 2010)

So, if you read my profile or my intro, you know that I am a part time stone mason. I am licensed and insured, no worries there. My dilemma is pricing. I usually go with T&M, simple, easy, but annoying when it comes time to ask for the money, my hours are questioned, not to mention the questions during the job as to why I do things the way I do them, insinuating I am 'padding hours'. It has been so long since I actually had to bid a job even when I try I simply add the materials up, estimate my time, and give them a price; then the job changes, or it rains, or I hit stone when digging...you know.

So, my hourly rate for 'knowns' is $30, and for 'un-knowns' is $40 per hour. I have no employees so that is the price for my skilled and unskilled labor on the job.

I guess my question would be: what are some guidelines for sq ft prices for pavers/ stone work/ walls and such.

When I left the business, stone was at $50 sq ft, including footers, brick was around $20. Pavers back then were $10 to $12 but they have nearly doubled in price.

Sorry for the long post, I guess my problem is that I just charged $500 to put down about 100 sq ft of used brick and flagstone with many cuts. just seemed real cheap to me and I don't want to be that guy that comes in way under the other guys trying to make a total living at this.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

No one but no one knows what it takes to run your business. Only you do.

Therefore, asking a how much question is like throwing bricks into the Grand Canyon.

Start by reading here:
http://www.contractortalk.com/f16/pricing-estimating-success-27899/


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

You do know that in PA, as part of the state-wide contractor registration program you are not allowed to charge T&M??


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

Angus was on that like a hobo on a hot ham sandwich:thumbsup:


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## Stonemason35 (Jun 11, 2010)

*Thanks*

thank you for the quick reply. I don't actually need to know what it takes to run the business, I do it mostly for fun. What worries me is that I am hurting the guys that do it to feed families. Maybe the folk I work for wouldn't do a job for 'normal' prices...so I fit a niche.

Oh well, thanks for looking anyway!


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## Stonemason35 (Jun 11, 2010)

*oh my*



CookeCarpentry said:


> You do know that in PA, as part of the state-wide contractor registration program you are not allowed to charge T&M??



I didn't see that when I filled out the paper-work...researching now.

Thanks for the heads-up.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

CookeCarpentry said:


> You do know that in PA, as part of the state-wide contractor registration program you are not allowed to charge T&M??


What's the logic there Mark?


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Stonemason35 said:


> I didn't see that when I filled out the paper-work...researching now.
> 
> Thanks for the heads-up.


 
*§ 517.7. Home improvement contracts*

(e) Voidable clauses.--If a home improvement contract contains any of the following clauses,​the home improvement contract shall be voidable by the owner:

(6) An assignment of or order for payment of wages or other compensation for services.

Also:

 
(a) Requirements.--No home improvement contract shall be valid or enforceable against an​owner unless it:

(8) Includes the total sales price due under the contract.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

DaVinciRemodel said:


> What's the logic there Mark?


Paul -

Logic there is to stop the exact reason that Stonemason35 is having

*I usually go with T&M, simple, easy, but annoying when it comes time to ask for the money, my hours are questioned, not to mention the questions during the job as to why I do things the way I do them, insinuating I am 'padding hours'.*

The state stepped in to supposedly protect homeowners, and a T&M contract or cost plus can quickly spiral out of control if good lines of communication are not open.


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## Stonemason35 (Jun 11, 2010)

*can't find it...*



CookeCarpentry said:


> You do know that in PA, as part of the state-wide contractor registration program you are not allowed to charge T&M??


I just read the law again, can't find a PA prohibition against T&M. Would you have a link?


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Stonemason35 said:


> I just read the law again, can't find a PA prohibition against T&M. Would you have a link?


http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Consumers/HIC/Act_132_Home_Improvement.pdf


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

CookeCarpentry said:


> The state stepped in to supposedly protect homeowners, and a T&M contract or cost plus can quickly spiral out of control if good lines of communication are not open.


I kept my yap shut so you could answer first. :laughing:

I suppose overall it's a good rule, but it really does put us in an awkward position when there's no way of knowing just what you're going to run into once you start opening things up.

127 change orders a day gets a little silly.


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## Stonemason35 (Jun 11, 2010)

*Got it*



CookeCarpentry said:


> *§ 517.7. Home improvement contracts*
> 
> (e) Voidable clauses.--If a home improvement contract contains any of the following clauses,​the home improvement contract shall be voidable by the owner:
> 
> ...



So it is not 'prohibited' as such, it makes it dangerous to do. If the contract is paid, then there is no problem with T&M, other than the ones I stated. Of course this leads me to really need the answers to original question, my goal is not to tick people off.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> I kept my yap shut so you could answer first. :laughing:
> 
> I suppose overall it's a good rule, but it really does put us in an awkward position when there's no way of knowing just what you're going to run into once you start opening things up.
> 
> 127 change orders a day gets a little silly.


Tin - by no means am I agreeing with this, but it makes a contract unenforceable if you have a T&M clause in there.

I think we all have looked at jobs where we scratch our head and think...hmm, if things go right, 8 hours, if not...80 hours. Hard to bid that kind of work, except a REALLY detailed contract and plenty of change orders in the truck...


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

CookeCarpentry said:


> Paul -
> 
> Logic there is to stop the exact reason that Stonemason35 is having
> 
> ...


I guess the key word is "supposedly". Thanks Mark


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Stonemason35 said:


> So it is not 'prohibited' as such, it makes it dangerous to do. If the contract is paid, then there is no problem with T&M, other than the ones I stated. Of course this leads me to really need the answers to original question, my goal is not to tick people off.


But it is prohibited, if you enter into a contract with a homeowner, and part of that contract contains a clause that the state says makes the whole contract unenforceable....isn't that prohibited?

Just because you roll the dice and get away with it, doesn't mean it's okay to do.

And to answer your original question, you will tick people off (the full-timers, or whatever you called them) by working T&M when the rest of us can't.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

DaVinciRemodel said:


> I guess the key word is "supposedly". Thanks Mark


Actually, the key word was when you asked what the "logic" was behind it. Governmental regulations and logic don't always go hand in hand....:laughing:


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## Stonemason35 (Jun 11, 2010)

*rule of thumb*



CookeCarpentry said:


> And to answer your original question, you will tick people (the full-timers, or whatever you called them) by working T&M when the rest of us can't.




I get that, it is what has been bothering me this year. What I need is a resource to help me bid jobs. The books are way high (in my opinion) and local guys won't 'reveal' their prices. In the restaurant world, where I misspent my youth, the rule of thumb was Three Times the Entrée. If the piece of chicken cost $2.00, the meal sold for $6.00, simple, easy.

I guess I am looking for answers that just do not exist.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

If you are insured, registered with the state, and paying all the correct taxes, the $35-50/hr range for figuring labor is correct in the area you are in.

What books are you referring to? Way high may not seem that high once you calculate overhead, taxes, insurance, vehicle cost, gas, tool overhead, etc, etc.

And local guys will not reveal their prices - remember, you are their competition.


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## Stonemason35 (Jun 11, 2010)

CookeCarpentry said:


> If you are insured, registered with the state, and paying all the correct taxes, the $35-50/hr range for labor is correct in the area you are in.


thanks Mark. I will try to not tick off the local guys as well.


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