# Tile over sheet vinyl backing



## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

TNT said:


> I thought that Schluter states to use unmodified between two impervious surfaces? Do they not?


That applies to setting of the tiles over Ditra. Ditra & porcelain tiles are impervious. We haven't started to argue about that yet. 

This thread is about what to use to install Ditra over vinyl, ply or anything other than a cementitious substrate. The answer is a modified thinset or a embossing leveler in the case of vinyl and you don't have the proper modified on hand. In any case it's gotta be modified so it'll stick.

Angus, sorry but since you insist on being wrong.............There's little help I can offer you anymore. 

Jaz


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I thought that Schluter states to use unmodified between two impervious surfaces? Do they not?





JazMan said:


> Sorry Angus, but now you're totally mixed up and don't know what round you're in. Maybe Rob can xplain it to you?
> 
> I'll just say you're tired and not thinking clearly.
> 
> Jaz


Is this your response to my question?

Also, I would really like for you to retract your statement concerning my dislike for Ditra. I actually like all Schluter products I have used. I use the Kerdi line all of the time. I love the shower pan kits and curbs.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

JazMan said:


> That applies to setting of the tiles over Ditra. Ditra & porcelain tiles are impervious.


So what's the deal with unmodified for Ditra over concrete? Doesn't modified stick very well to concrete? Or maybe it's considered an impervious surface...


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

JazMan said:


> Angus, sorry but since you insist on being wrong.............There's little help I can offer you anymore.


You insist on putting words in my mouth and for that, you aren't helping. 

Harp on what wasn't said. Ignore what you can't answer. Maybe a future in politics? :laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

JazMan said:


> That applies to setting of the tiles over Ditra. Ditra & porcelain tiles are impervious. We haven't started to argue about that yet.
> 
> This thread is about what to use to install Ditra over vinyl, ply or anything other than a cementitious substrate. The answer is a modified thinset or a embossing leveler in the case of vinyl and you don't have the proper modified on hand. In any case it's gotta be modified so it'll stick.
> 
> ...


Nope. Wrong again.

Q. What type of thin-set mortar should I use *when installing Schluter-DITRA? *

A. The type of thin-set mortar used to install Schluter-DITRA depends on the substrate material. For example, to set DITRA over plywood or OSB, a modified thin-set mortar meeting the requirements of ANSI A118.11 is used. T*o set DITRA over concrete or gypsum, Schluter-Systems recommends an unmodified thin-set mortar *meeting the requirements of ANSI A118.1. Please consult the Schluter-DITRA Installation Handbook before beginning your tile project to confirm the proper materials selection.


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## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

Biker,

Angus said this;


> If you're using Ditra, you got the Schluter rule to deal with. Not sure if I'd be too confident using typical non-modified going directly over the vinyl.


There is NO Schluter rule that pertains to setting Ditra. He might have mixed up what to use to set the tiles instead of what this thread is about. He is clearly suggesting that maybe you could use the unmodified, but is skeptical. Why only skeptical? There is no circumstances where you can do that, (go direct to vinyl with unmod.) Plus there is no vinyl anyway. However, vinyl, the old backing, ply and OSB all require a modified product.

I would love to answer every one of your replies, but it's too difficult when by the time I reply, there's several more. If I think I can clear up any questions I will try. I'll be happy to continue as long as a certain plumber here doesn't add new scenarios like what if it was a concrete floor? 

Once again, what to use to set Ditra is easy, there's nothing mysterious about it. 

Jaz


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

Jaz, is it so hard to answer one question? It takes longer to say, I can't answer your question, than it does to say yes or no.

Here it is one last time.

When you say "modified thinset" anywhere on this forum, do you mean rapid set?


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## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

TNT from SchluterQ&A said:


> Q. What type of thin-set mortar should I use when installing Schluter-DITRA?





Schluter said:


> A. The type of thin-set mortar used to install Schluter-DITRA depends on the substrate material. For example, to set DITRA over plywood or OSB, a modified thin-set mortar meeting the requirements of ANSI A118.11 is used. To set DITRA over concrete or gypsum, Schluter-Systems recommends an unmodified thin-set mortar meeting the requirements of ANSI A118.1. Please consult the Schluter-DITRA Installation Handbook before beginning your tile project to confirm the proper materials selection


Right of course! That's exactly what I've been saying. I have said many times; Use the type of thinset that is appropriate with the substrate. I've know that since the early '90's. 

Sorry, no, that one reply was not my reply to you. And in regards to whether like like Ditra or not, I said without prejudice. Not everyone will use it, there are many methods and now several similar products. 

Jaz


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

JazMan said:


> Biker,
> 
> Angus said this;
> 
> ...


The "rule" that he was talking about was using unmodified to install Ditra over impervious materials such as concrete and gypsum. By your own admission, vinyl qualifies as impervious, so the rule would seemingly apply.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I simply cannot believe the lengths Jaz has gone thru here for a moot point. 

Assumptions.....the root of all evil.

And speaking of evil, I really can't believe you needed to go to the lengths you did even with the name calling. This all could have been solved within a few posts but you really need to take this to tin-foil conspiracy lengths and stretch whatever you could muster to make this into something it's clearly not. It's not my post count. It's not some team ganging up but not a single person agreed with you during all of this. Are we all wrong that your interpretation on your initial thought was just off? No.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

JazMan said:


> Right of course! That's exactly what I've been saying. I have said many times; Use the type of thinset that is appropriate with the substrate. I've know that since the early '90's.
> 
> Sorry, no that one reply was not my reply to you. And in regards to whether like like Ditra or not, I said without prejudice. Not everyone will use it, there are many methods and now several similar products.
> 
> Jaz


What does said without prejudice mean? You said it to setup the accusation that I might not be fair based on my opinion. That's is an unfair and unsubstantiated claim. Just man up and apologize for claiming that I don't like Dirtra and that could be my motive.


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## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

Biker said:


> When you say "modified thinset" anywhere on this forum, do you mean rapid set?


It doesn't have to be rapid set if you can wait, but if you wanna save time it's best to use it. But you still should let it cure as Schluter likes. However it does have to be modified. 

But in your case we knew early that there would be no vinyl to go over. It was gonna be partial backing or the underlayment.

Jaz


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## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

I love it when a bunch of people attack you with incorrect info and then stick up for each other.

I suggest some should re read the thread in the order it was written. Also try to attend a Schluter workshop if/when it's near or go to the one at the CTEF.

Jaz


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

JazMan said:


> I love it when a bunch of people attack you with incorrect info and then stick up for each other.
> 
> I suggest some should re read the thread in the order it was written. Also try to attend a Schluter workshop if/when it's near or go to the one at the CTEF.
> 
> Jaz


I have stuck up for nothing, just asked for clarification. You are paranoid. I have done a few things.

1) I have asked for links and documentation concerning your claims. You have yet to provide anything.

2) Consider your method of conversation.

3) Be more clear in your responses.

4) I asked questions concerning my confusion on the issue. Your responses have been filled with ego stroking and little substance.

5) Asked for you to apologize for insinuating my motives were not pure and solely concerned with seeking the truth.

I suggest that you actually show others actual documentation of your assertions. Not because I don't believe you, I just need more.

EDIT: I will also point out that you stated my comment concerning using unmodified thinset was for setting tile, not installing Ditra, when in fact it also applies to setting Ditra.


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

angus242 said:


> If you're using Ditra, you got the Schluter rule to deal with. Not sure if I'd be too confident using typical non-modified going directly over the vinyl.
> 
> You can skim coat with a product like FeatherFinish. Drys real quick. Now you have a decent surface to non-modified/Ditra over.
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Henry-549-7-lb-FeatherFinish-Patch-and-Skimcoat-12163/100551687


Schluter doesn't recommend unmodified to install Ditra over vinyl, or plywood. What "Schluter rule" are you referring to?

Edit: Lol, nevermind, I see you guys have hashed this out. 

I gotta say though, in skimming the material (pun intended), Jaz has it right. Not sure why you are arguing about the installation of Ditra with him.


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## HS345 (Jan 20, 2008)

tjbnwi said:


> The substrate determines the mortar. Over the plywood modified would be used. Once the Ditra is down un-modified.
> 
> *Kerdi over drywall you use modified.*
> 
> Tom


Unmodified to install Kerdi over drywall. Though, personally, I use Versabond under, Ardex X5 over.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

HS345 said:


> Schluter doesn't recommend unmodified to install Ditra over vinyl, or plywood. What "Schluter rule" are you referring to?
> 
> Edit: Lol, nevermind, I see you guys have hashed this out.
> 
> I gotta say though, in skimming the material (pun intended), Jaz has it right. Not sure why you are arguing about the installation of Ditra with him.


You obviously didn't read everything and I don't blame you.

The "Schluter rule" is a joke I use. It's in other threads too.

Skim coating vinyl with modified and then install Ditra as over cementitious is exactly one of their recommendations. Whether it is the smartest or not was never the issue.

I once was tiling a condo on a slab. When I got to the kitchen, the vinyl wouldn't come up. As per recommendations from my Schluter rep, I bought a small bag of Ardex Feather Finish to skim coat the vinyl after degreasing. Since I already had 15 bags of Kerabond, the 10lb bag of Feather Finish was the easiest/cheapest option instead of buying 2 gals of Keralastic or 50 lbs of modified thinset.

If the debate was about the smartest option, I can't disagree. I quickly drop a totally legit recommendation and was proceed to be drag into some insane tennis match about something that didn't happen.

If you're really, really bored, read thru the entire thing. I absolutely know how to install Ditra. The ridiculous claims ensued. He even went as far as name calling which is unbelievable. He bounced around his answers and skip questions that didn't suit his arguments. And then all the tin-foil, ganging up on him silliness. 

This whole thing is a case of misinterpreting and assumptions. It could have easily been done and over before page 2 started. I don't think putting words in my mouth or telling me what I think was the most efficient way to get his point across.


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## Evan1968 (Dec 5, 2010)

Love it...!


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

HS345 said:


> Unmodified to install Kerdi over drywall. Though, personally, I use Versabond under, Ardex X5 over.












It's a conspiracy....:laughing:


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## MarcoPollo (Dec 6, 2014)

HS, I have freely admitted that in this forum I'm the newbie. 

But I see this whole idea of using different thinsets with Kerdi not only here but on John Bridge as well. 

For those of you 10+ years tiling experience, why do you all void the warranty purposely when using Kerdi? Many times I see people referring to contacting reps etc for advice on bad situations or looking for literature to back up the "call" they made on site. And I remember reading something Angus posted about tiling being a percentages game which has stuck with me for quite a while now.

With all the being said, if it's extra insurance and recommended from manufacturer to do something a certain way, why do so many of you knowingly defy their recommendations? I dont mean it skeptically, just for my own understanding I guess.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

PrecisionFloors said:


> Holy ****. This has to take the train wreck award for the flooring section, at least in recent history. I don't even care who's right - shut the **** up lmao.
> 
> P.s - TNT, you've gotten into it with everyone mostly cause you're an A-hole


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez-NsShMK74


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Closed pending moderation


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## Admin (Dec 10, 2003)

Y'all know better than this. 

http://www.contractortalk.com/f45/respect-others-community-182849/


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