# Electrical Problem



## abonear (Jul 21, 2006)

Hi I need some help in this matter.

If a plug is installed with the wires reversed. Meaning the wires that
suppose to go on the brass is on the silver, would that cause 
a back feed and to much electicity can come out and burn a
tv. 

We accidently did this...we installed a new plug..customer called 
stating to much electricity was comming out of the plugs. She 
had an electrician come out and he said we were the problem.
We went back and checked and we found that to be one thing
we did wrong. We corrected the problem and we thought okay
never again. Leason Learned pay attention and keep away 
from electicity. We thought ...switching the plug..no big deal
$10 fee and we thought customer happy. 

Customer now wants to sue.

Any suggestions.

Thanks


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

get a lawyer


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## ACTRenovator (Jan 1, 2007)

Try to sort it out with them without going to court. Mediate with them and maybe just fix up their tv or whatever because it is usually cheaper for you and less embarassing. It sounds like they want something out of you and are just threatening to sue you and seeing your reaction.

Boy you americans love to sue each other. That's crap! I think us Australians are following suit aswell, sadly.

Good luck mate.

For all you people in Australia......Enjoy Australia Day Holiday!


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Time to pony up for a new TV!

Your basic incandescent lamp wouldn't know the difference but anything electronic (amost everything today) can be pretty finicky as you have discovered.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

Did you test the outlet before you left?


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## abonear (Jul 21, 2006)

We did and it worked fine.

So I'm not sure..wow...this is a sad day...I hope she will not sue..
real hard leason learned. 

So I guess by your answers..we screwed up..


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Does the TV have a polarized plug?, if it does you owe them a new TV, if not you can try and argue the case.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

he did electrical work illegally. he did electrical work without a license.

i'm sorry, i hope they sue him.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

mahlere said:


> he did electrical work illegally. he did electrical work without a license.
> 
> i'm sorry, i hope they sue him.


I think you can do electrical work in California under a certain dollar amount without a license, not 100 percent sure, but I did read it somewhere.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

abonear said:


> If a plug is installed with the wires reversed. Meaning the wires that suppose to go on the brass is on the silver, would that cause a back feed and to much electicity can come out and burn a tv.


Feedback? Over voltage? Burn the TV? No..no..no.

If the TV's power plug can be inserted into an outlet either way (with the blades in either of the 2 positions) then it's absolutely not your fault. If one of the blades is wider, to allow insertion in only one position, then I'd say the customer may have a legitimate beef.


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

Doing electrical work without a licence..Not good:thumbdown 

Inserting a two prong plug in a receptacle that is wired wrong should not cause a TV to go south. The reason for a polarized plug is for safety reasons and not necessarily for operational reasons. The internal wiring on an appliance is wired with reference to the grounded conductor (neutral) for safety reasons.

It might of been a previous problem on the circuit that caused the TV to go south. The poster did not say why the receptacle was replaced and I question what was wrong before the receptacle was replaced.

Carry On!


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## abonear (Jul 21, 2006)

Well under California Rules...anything under $500 bucks we can do.
So we did not brake any laws in that respect. 

The problem is that we hooked up the black wires where the white
wires needed to be..so I'm wondering could that be the problem.
Or could the house have wiring problems..that now she is trying
to pin down on me. Plus one thing that was noticed that there
was no ground wire threw out the house. 

As for the plug why she wanted it changed...She did not mentioned any problems with the plug..just that she would like to have a new plug.
Now thinking back....there had to be a problem.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

abonear said:


> If a plug is installed with the wires reversed. Meaning the wires that
> suppose to go on the brass is on the silver, would that cause
> a back feed and to much electicity can come out and burn a
> tv.


Man, I hate to be so blunt, but after this paragraph I can honestly say you have NO place doing electrical work. ESPECIALLY for paying customers.
Are you are actually asking _"...if too much electicity can come out..." _??

If you tested the *receptacle* you would have seen that it was reversed polarity. You obviously did not test it, at least with anything more than a neon lamp tester.

You replaced a receptacle. You say there was no ground. Did you use a 3-prong grounded receptacle? If so what did you connect to the ground screw?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Handymen have their place in the marketplace. This is just another example of why doing electrical work is not included in that. Fixing the screen door, hanging a few pictures, installing a new doorknob... fine. Electrical work... eh, not such a good idea.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Doesn't every electronic device that is plugged in to the wall(like a TV) first run the power through a transformer so the TV can use it?
If so then it don't matter if polarity is reversed, Hell afterall it is alternating current(AC) we're talking about right?

I agree with Speedey, why did you change the receptacle? Is someone making you out to be a paycheck, you seem a likely candidate, hahaha


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## DAVIS081404 (Oct 20, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> Are you are actually asking _"...if too much electicity can come out..." _??
> 
> 
> Speedy didnt you see the post that referenced placing your wires at a downward angle, because electricity flows down hill...........Maybe the TV set is positioned below the receptacle. With no way to stop them electrons no telling what could happen.


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## DAVIS081404 (Oct 20, 2006)

abonear said:


> Well under California Rules...anything under $500 bucks we can do.
> So we did not brake any laws in that respect.
> 
> The problem is that we hooked up the black wires where the white
> ...


 
Remember CSLB has a stipulation about doing unlicensed work regardless of dollar amount. You must state in writting to the customer that you are not licensed for the work you are performing. Even if it is under $500 they can cause you problems. I would try to remedy the situation and sneak away withan expensive lesson learned.

Where are you in CA? Im in Bakersfield


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## abonear (Jul 21, 2006)

Very true..I'm in South La. You know..I'm aware it was a bad call.,
It was a plug...just one stinking plug..The lady asked me to please
change it and I did'nt think it would be a huge problem..

Again..all I charged was a $10 doe'nt ever cover my gas..Specially here
in California. But again..if It's my fault..I will deal with it..I definately
will try to fix it by paying the damm tv and ofcourse refunding her
$10 but I just did not know this can cause such a problem. 

I think she definately had electrical problems...prior me getting there
and I basically took the baite.

Oh..and Yes...I did tell her I was NOT a Certified Electrician.


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## DAVIS081404 (Oct 20, 2006)

abonear said:


> Very true..I'm in South La. You know..I'm aware it was a bad call.,
> It was a plug...just one stinking plug..The lady asked me to please
> change it and I did'nt think it would be a huge problem..
> 
> ...


 
By CA Law telling the consumer is not enough to satify the requirement. This applies to any unlicensed work not just Eletricity and not just under $500. CSLB requires written notification before any work starts, it also requires this in advertising. Best of luck


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

abonear said:


> Oh..and Yes...I did tell her I was NOT a Certified Electrician.


So then does that make you certifiably resposible? I don't think so.
If a customer hires a handyman to do things, it is basically saying they are too lazy to do them themselves, which in turn relates that this customer couldv'e incorrectly wired this receptacle had they not been so lazy.

But California is probably THEE most consumer oriented state(that I know of).

But now I'd like to know; you wired this receptacle, burned up a TV, opened the recptacle again, and then realized the white wire goes on the white screw? Or had you always known and just made an honest mistake and somehow had a messed up tester that said it was right?


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Some things are polarity specific. Furnaces come to mind. I am not sure about TVs though. Sounds like you are responsible for the mishap. If you were an electrician, you would have known to cover your tracks and test your work, make sure it is grounded, charge a fair price, etc. It is unfortunate that you were not able to do so. If you do not know what you are doing, don't do it, even if that "law" allows you too.


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

Maybe there is a loose grounded conductror some where. I've seen taking the wrong nuetral apart on a live circuit blow two computer at once. It was an accident and I sure learned my lesson. But enough about me I think it just goes to show you why non electricians should not even touch an outlet!


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## Mr. Wms (Jan 5, 2007)

It's hard to say what happened because you didn't check the original
outlet or the new one. You may just have to eat it and consider it a 
lesson learned.

You'll probably do electrical work again. If so get the appropriate
tools and KNOWLEDGE or call a licensed electrician.

If not, next time it may be the whole HOUSE instead of a TV! 
Hope it works for you.


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## [email protected]&R (Jul 26, 2005)

Seem's like that is going to be one heck of an expensive $10 outlet. I would do as suggested and buy them a new TV first off. To avoid court and the damage to the company name I may even upgrade them to a bigger set, LCD, or maybe Plasma. Then I would fire the guy responsable.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

I would still argue the issue of why things need to be polarized, perhaps I'll go and ask over at Mike Holt's place.


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## bobbyj (Jun 2, 2006)

Bkessler said:


> Maybe there is a loose grounded conductror some where. I've seen taking the wrong nuetral apart on a live circuit blow two computer at once. It was an accident and I sure learned my lesson. But enough about me I think it just goes to show you why non electricians should not even touch an outlet!



BK may be on to something. Was it a multi-wire circuit, did you work it hot, and did you take the neutral apart?


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## paintr56 (Feb 4, 2005)

abonear said:


> Hi I need some help in this matter.
> 
> If a plug is installed with the wires reversed. Meaning the wires that
> suppose to go on the brass is on the silver, would that cause
> ...


 I would want to talk to the electrician that said you were the problem before paying for the tv. Find out what he thinks you did wrong. I have my doubts. The story is an electrician came out looked at the outlet you wired "wrong" said it was an electrical problem and didn't fix it while he was there. Seems a little odd most the electricians I know would have charged a minimum show up fee and it would have been more then enough to rewire a faulty outlet.

Just a painter with an opinion Jim Bunton


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

I guess I need to make a drawing to get a batter picture if this as I see it. If the other rec's were wired properly, would his mistake not cause a direct short and trip a breaker or bloe a fuse *if* it is a fuse system and *If* the circuit was served by the correct sized fuse? Hard to tell what is going on. Who knows? Someone may have a penny under a fuse! Maybe something recently added to the circuit before she had you change it out? Either way, not a good position for you.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Paintr 56 makes a good point........
Painter Boman is way off base........wiring a receptacle wrong will not trip a breaker.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Sparky Joe said:


> I would still argue the issue of why things need to be polarized, perhaps I'll go and ask over at Mike Holt's place.


I'm not sure about newer TV's but older ones (not that old) didn't go straight to a transformer, and reverse polarity could damage them, specifically a Sony Trinitron, not sure of age. I think in most cases polarity doesn't matter (unless specified) except for lights, not for operation but so people don't get a zap when changing bulbs.

I did think of the post by mdshunk about his problem with the TV that abonear might want to look at:

"you broke my TV"
http://www.contractortalk.com/showthread.php?t=14856


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

mickeyco said:


> I did think of the post by mdshunk about his problem with the TV that abonear might want to look at:
> 
> "you broke my TV"
> http://www.contractortalk.com/showthread.php?t=14856


That post was about shutting off the power, which didn't allow the bulb to properly cool, thus warping it and causing poor picture or whatever.

Now that you bring it up again, that one bothers me too;
I'm not sure how those TV's work but I can't imagine a warped/improperly cooled lamp would kill the TV.
Beside that; how can the TV manufacturer insure that power will never go out to the customers house due a storm or utility failure?
Thus costing them 500 bucks for a new light bulb. 
I would imagine there would be a fail safe within the TV to protect against this, But at the same time I would also imagine by now that in these 5k dollar TV's they would also have a TVSS integrated somehow. But I guess once it's off the showroom floor it's no longer their problem, just fill out your warranty card and hope for the best right?


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

> Painter Boman is way off base........wiring a receptacle wrong will not trip a breaker.


Hence the need for polarity meters and color coded wire, I guess. I was just musing over one improperly wired rec among several properly wired ones. Other than that, I know a circuit is a circuit regardless of the the color of the wire. I stand corrected.

Painter Boman


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

Odds are the TV was already a problem and you got hooked. I would offer to pay for a repair shop to fix it, not a new one . I think you will also owe the electricians service call fee. But I would want to know what he found. reverse polarity sensitive items will normally have a warning light or not work at all if connected backwards.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

...


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Sparky Joe said:


> Now that you bring it up again, that one bothers me too;
> I'm not sure how those TV's work but I can't imagine a warped/improperly cooled lamp would kill the TV.
> Beside that; how can the TV manufacturer insure that power will never go out to the customers house due a storm or utility failure?
> Thus costing them 500 bucks for a new light bulb.


You know, some people have said Mcdonalds is not in the hamburger business, it is a real estate business.

Maybe Sony is really a light bulb company. :jester:


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Maybe you got set up. There are people who figure someone else should pay and it's their job to find a sucker that will.

Maybe it was wired correctly, maybe the owner reversed it, so there would be an excuse to screw someone else. That would explain why the owner had you replacing a receptacle for no "logical" reason.

I've heard people bragg about screwing contractors. It's a game to them and they come out winners. You may just be another on the list. A handyman is an easy mark. A licensed electrician would not make the mistake, and would test.


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

Some times I wonder. I was trying to pronounce your name and it seems like A-boner is that really what you go by? I also looked at the public profile and I have to ask are you just hiring Joe Blow and sending him to someones home as a quallified technician, or is it you that is going out and doing the work?


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## Master Bob (Feb 2, 2007)

Reading thru all the threads...Thom makes a strong point...granted - you had reversed polarity on the receptacle outlet you replaced...(which would have quickly showed up as reversed polarity with a plug-in receptacle tester) but the question comes back to...why did she want you to replace it..and ONLY that one receptacle ? Was the old one cracked....wrong color...loose - or what..? Or were you simply set-up..? Clearly this home has outdated 2 wire non-grounded wiring... (probably old knob and tube or perhap early cloth romex)...and may have a host of other electrical problems. But - the possibilty that the TV may have already been bad...and she had you replace only that ONE receptacle (and with no explanation as to why) - so that you could later be found responsible for it's demise...(aftter she paid an electrician to come in just to test and confirm it )...has bad news written all over it. Also...did you install a 3 prong grounding receptacle on this 2 wire circuit..? If so...you committed a second violation - per Code you MUST now either install a new 2 prong non-grounding receptacle on an non-grounded circuit...or a GFCI with the label "No equipment ground" on the cover plate.

Just has bad news written all over it....to many unanswered "if's, and's or but's"...(such as : Why did she want ONLY that receptacle replaced.? Did you see the TV work BEFORE you changed the receptacle..? Did the TV cord have a polarized plug..? Did the TV manufacturer state that if polarity was inadvertently reversed....damage to the set could occur..? ,etc..) These are things I'd certainly want to know up front....in case you do go to court. In this state...you'd loose right off because you say you are not a licensed electrician (required here for electrical work) - so you'd be held responsible for doing the work without proper licensing. 

In any event....good luck - hope they settle for just a new TV...and have them sign a disclaimer stating you are no longer responsible for anything else after that....or it may never end.

Definitely a lesson learned the hard way....best to leave electrical work to licensed electricians....especially when you are in someone else's home.


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## MO-AMPS (Jan 16, 2007)

I have to admit I really doubt any contractor would call an electrician to just cange a outlet it seems to me that he was just doing a friendly service (i mean heck my 15 year old nephew come with to trim out all the time to install outlet)

But oddly enough i did have a very very simular service call and handyman fried a tv also because of too many volts going to the tv and all he did was change the outlet, but the handyman didn't know was that the outlet he change was for at one time 220v, for a window a/c seeems like that is what happen here because remember the lady did call an electrician over to look at it, but for whatever reason he didn't fix the problem

That the only logical thing that could happen in a single phase resi (I think)


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

MO-AMPS said:


> I have to admit I really doubt any contractor would call an electrician to just cange a outlet it seems to me that he was just doing a friendly service (i mean heck my 15 year old nephew come with to trim out all the time to install outlet)
> 
> But oddly enough i did have a very very simular service call and handyman fried a tv also because of too many volts going to the tv and all he did was change the outlet, but the handyman didn't know was that the outlet he change was for at one time 220v, for a window a/c seeems like that is what happen here because remember the lady did call an electrician over to look at it, but for whatever reason he didn't fix the problem
> 
> That the only logical thing that could happen in a single phase resi (I think)


 
The problem would have been obvious to anyone with a tester. I still agree "SET-UP" but the way we avoid such things is to test the outlet first before doing anything else. You wouldn't just change it an not test it before and after. I can't imagine changing an outlet and not testing it before leaving the job. What if it didn't work ? you would be right back at the job the next day. If the house is K&T and there is a questionable neutral = 220 volt but this can be intermittent. In California state law says anyone working for a C-10 ( electrical ) contractor and is doing work as an electrician needs to be certified by the state. This "handy man" is a loop hole that I hope the state closes. This law is fairly new, and is unenforced until you get into the court room. All your customer has to do is point out that your guy is not certified and you lose. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Pay for the TV and stick to repairing screen doors and runny toilets. Its cheaper then killing someone because your guy "just changed one outlet" and burned down the house. There are many none obvious things that can go wrong with electrical that a "handy man" would not know to look for.


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## MO-AMPS (Jan 16, 2007)

acrwc10 said:


> The problem would have been obvious to anyone with a tester. I still agree "SET-UP" but the way we avoid such things is to test the outlet first before doing anything else. You wouldn't just change it an not test it before and after. I can't imagine changing an outlet and not testing it before leaving the job. What if it didn't work ? you would be right back at the job the next day. If the house is K&T and there is a questionable neutral = 220 volt but this can be intermittent. In California state law says anyone working for a C-10 ( electrical ) contractor and is doing work as an electrician needs to be certified by the state. This "handy man" is a loop hole that I hope the state closes. This law is fairly new, and is unenforced until you get into the court room. All your customer has to do is point out that your guy is not certified and you lose. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Pay for the TV and stick to repairing screen doors and runny toilets. Its cheaper then killing someone because your guy "just changed one outlet" and burned down the house. There are many none obvious things that can go wrong with electrical that a "handy man" would not know to look for.


 


My argument is not with you i agree with you to a certain extent(spelling) what you are saying But in reality no contractor is going to call a electrician out to install a .50 outlet I mean"come on" 

And in all honesty I don't think he really is trying to do our work,but if you read his post i believe that he change out a 20-amp 220v outlet to a 15-amp 120v outlet only logical thing i can think of.

But hey I"m all for pro's to stick to there profession exspecially when it come to our trades,heck people dying because of faulty electrical work


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

Wouldn't you just love to be there now with a meter?
... this is pointless, as we will never know the whole story.
[for the sake of argument, I buy the 220 recp changeout theory, except I can't imagine why the electrician left without selling the repair...]
Can we start a pool? .. and collect enough to send someone to fix this and find out what happened?


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

RobertWilber said:


> Wouldn't you just love to be there now with a meter?
> ... this is pointless, as we will never know the whole story.
> [for the sake of argument, I buy the 220 recp changeout theory, except I can't imagine why the electrician left without selling the repair...]
> Can we start a pool? .. and collect enough to send someone to fix this and find out what happened?


 
Look at the OPs profile. It speaks volumes.I'm in CA give me the address I'll go take a look.


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## mdcorreia (May 21, 2006)

CE1 said:


> Doing electrical work without a licence..Not good:thumbdown
> 
> Inserting a two prong plug in a receptacle that is wired wrong should not cause a TV to go south. The reason for a polarized plug is for safety reasons and not necessarily for operational reasons. The internal wiring on an appliance is wired with reference to the grounded conductor (neutral) for safety reasons.
> 
> ...


There are still old unpolirized receptacles around. There is something else going on here. They may have found a way of getting a free new tv. How will you know that somebody actually might have reversed the polarity on purpose?
I guess you may not be an electrician. We, in this trade, have to be part time lawyers sometimes. Some people play all kinds of tricks.


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## mdcorreia (May 21, 2006)

Sparky Joe said:


> Doesn't every electronic device that is plugged in to the wall(like a TV) first run the power through a transformer so the TV can use it?
> If so then it don't matter if polarity is reversed, Hell afterall it is alternating current(AC) we're talking about right?
> 
> I agree with Speedey, why did you change the receptacle? Is someone making you out to be a paycheck, you seem a likely candidate, hahaha


Good point about the transformer.Everyone: home owners, handipeople, tenants etc. change plugs all the time. I would fight this in court. The judgement should not be any harshier if you are not an electrician. The subject to be debated in court is if the plug was wired wrong and who did it and most important -would it cause a tv to burn out? (Sorry for not carrying on any longer - my lawyers fees are 10 times more than my electrical working fees.)


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## mdcorreia (May 21, 2006)

DAVIS081404 said:


> Speedy Petey said:
> 
> 
> > Are you are actually asking _"...if too much electicity can come out..." _??
> ...


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## mas2006 (Mar 18, 2006)

Do I smell fish??? First off reversing the outlet with no saftey ground , can't affect tv operation. Its AC current. If it was a 220 vac outlet swap to 120 vac , the fuse in TV should have blown, you might be responsible for that service repair. The neutral was tied to metal chassis of older model TVs, most are all plastic now. Some music amps and PA systems still do. You have to know and watch what your doing. Some of those who didn't paid the price. I would want to see repair bill for tv before releasing any funds. You should call that electrician and verify he's legit.   :thumbup:


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## MO-AMPS (Jan 16, 2007)

mas2006 said:


> Do I smell fish??? First off reversing the outlet with no saftey ground , can't affect tv operation. Its AC current. If it was a 220 vac outlet swap to 120 vac , the fuse in TV should have blown, you might be responsible for that service repair. The neutral was tied to metal chassis of older model TVs, most are all plastic now. Some music amps and PA systems still do. You have to know and watch what your doing. Some of those who didn't paid the price. I would want to see repair bill for tv before releasing any funds. You should call that electrician and verify he's legit.   :thumbup:


 
But here the problem with that the fuse will only break the L1 or hot coming in not neutral so if neutral really is L2 you will frying fish with a tv.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Let me assure you guys from personal knowledge (bad extension cord) that some TV's can be fried if the polarity is reversed, although I have no idea if that was the case here. The reason I posted the link to mdshunk's post was because we don't know what type of TV it was and maybe it was plugged in and turned on, and he unplugged it to change the outlet without the cool down time. The post did remind of a couple of incidents I have run across, both were with 110/220 combination outlets. One the handyman replaced it with a standard 110 outlet and could figure out why it wouldn't work and was tripping the breaker. On the other one, the handyman replaced it with a 110 outlet and broke off the bridge/connection between the terminals, making one side of the receptacle 220, that ended up with a fried TV.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

mickeyco said:


> The post did remind of a couple of incidents I have run across, both were with 110/220 combination outlets.


Havn't seen one of those receptacles in a good while. Could have been the case, I suppose.

I generally call those "air conditioner receptacles", since I often see them installed under certain windows in a home for whatever voltage window shaker you might install later. I think I even have a few of those kicking around the shop someplace.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

mas2006 said:


> Do I smell fish??? First off reversing the outlet with no saftey ground , can't affect tv operation. Its AC current.


Finally someone who understands the first concept of electricity.

Hello people, there is no such thing as "polarity" with AC current.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

MO-AMPS said:


> But here the problem with that the fuse will only break the L1 or hot coming in not neutral so if neutral really is L2 you will frying fish with a tv.


With no complete circuit? hence the blown fuse.

Pretty tough to imagine brother.


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## MO-AMPS (Jan 16, 2007)

Sparky Joe said:


> With no complete circuit? hence the blown fuse.
> 
> Pretty tough to imagine brother.


 
Were talking about the tv fuse not the CB so why would the tv fuse blow if you send 220, sorry I can not see that what i see is a blown board


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## MO-AMPS (Jan 16, 2007)

Sparky Joe said:


> Finally someone who understands the first concept of electricity.
> 
> Hello people, there is no such thing as "polarity" with AC current.


 

I have to disagree with you on that one my friend

Good case and example is your new furnace will not work if your lines are cross,I never seen it blow the a 3amp fuse on circuit board but it will not work


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

MO-AMPS said:


> Were talking about the tv fuse not the CB so why would the tv fuse blow if you send 220, sorry I can not see that what i see is a blown board


I agree that fuses see current, but you said if L1 were broken then L2 would still be conducting.....


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

MO-AMPS said:


> I have to disagree with you on that one my friend
> 
> Good case and example is your new furnace will not work if your lines are cross,I never seen it blow the a 3amp fuse on circuit board but it will not work


I don't see how the furnace could know or anything for that matter.

plug the most expensive meter you got into an AC circuit and ask it to tell you which wire is the "hot", there's no way of knowing because half the time the hot wire is positive and the other half it is negative. And vice versa for the neutral.

All your doing when creating a neutral is bonding one side of your coil to everything conductive around you. The only thing that makes the circuit is that it has "opposite" polarity of the so called "hot" wire


Suppose the power company when feeding your house center tapped the coil with the hot and tied the ends to neutral, would that not have the same effect?


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Seems like knowing what circuit breaker or fuse he pulled to make the replacement would be halpful in solving the mystery.  

I'm not an electrician, but have a permit to do my OWN home in Va. (Lessor license by far than electrician's lic..) 

Unless he just pulled the main, which isn't too smart. Just my 2cents worth.

I'd like to hear the outcome and know the cause.


BTW- Va. has a 'Good Neighbor' clause in it's contractor licensing which allows us to 'step outside our field' on occassions like that, up to $250. per incident. I would have run a few tests first, myself.


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

A question for the electricians; Wouldn't a recepticle wired for 220 most likely have 10 wire? I suppose you could have 220 20amp. circuit, but, not being an electrician, I don't know. And when in doubt, I never step outside my field either. :hammer:


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

About the only place one finds 10-gauge wire at receptacles in average homes is dryer outlets, and that would be 10/3 unless it was really old.
Water heaters are hard-wired.
Both 15-amp and 20-amp 240 recps are possible, though uncommon [because unnecessary] in newer homes. Most newer places have Central Air and very few AC units are 240 anymore. ... and why would a new place be wired for window units?
I guess there could be a thru-the-wall heat and AC unit in newer places, but they are more common in commercial occupancies.
I am still troubled by the "servicing" electrician's failure to correct "the problem."
... and had anyone noticed that the original poster has dropped out of this conversation.
If you look back through the posts by the guy who started the thread, there is very little in the way of info about the house and it's wiring.
Close this thread?
or replant it?


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Got some good answers on the polarity question at Mike Holt's.

Here's the link http://www.mikeholt.com/code_forum/showthread.php?t=83691&page=2

Steve on the second page makes a good point.


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## mtp (Feb 13, 2005)

You should have charged her way more then ten bills then you could afford to buy her a new TV.


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## MO-AMPS (Jan 16, 2007)

Hey sparky I respect your view on polarity but what is missing with your view on furnace is that the board will not engergize the relay because of the opening and closing pressure safety switch on the induce motor,it have to have L1 are it will never work however it will work in the summer time to energize the setting for a/c.

But that is probably one of the reason that the code requires that furnaces should be on a circuit by itself


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

MO-AMPS said:


> But that is probably one of the reason that the code requires that furnaces should be on a circuit by itself


Hmmm. This is curious. I have never heard that one. Maybe a code reference is in order?

I find it strange that the words "_code_", "_required_" and "_should_", are all in the same sentence.
If something is "required" wouldn't the adjoining word be "must"?


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## MO-AMPS (Jan 16, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Hmmm. This is curious. I have never heard that one. Maybe a code reference is in order?
> 
> I find it strange that the words "_code_", "_required_" and "_should_", are all in the same sentence.
> If something is "required" wouldn't the adjoining word be "must"?


 
See Article 422.12:
Central heating equipment other than fixed electric
space-heating equipment shall be supplied 
by an individual branch circuit


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

RobertWilber said:


> About the only place one finds 10-gauge wire at receptacles in average homes is dryer outlets, and that would be 10/3 unless it was really old.
> Water heaters are hard-wired.
> Both 15-amp and 20-amp 240 recps are possible, though uncommon [because unnecessary] in newer homes. Most newer places have Central Air and very few AC units are 240 anymore. ... and why would a new place be wired for window units?
> I guess there could be a thru-the-wall heat and AC unit in newer places, but they are more common in commercial occupancies.
> ...



Thanks foor the answer. Thinking back, most old houses seemed to have 14 throughout, unless it was a specific circuit. And I had forgotten that I wired a commercial kitchen recently with several seperate 20 amp circuits with the receptacles pictured earlier. I used 12 on those.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

MO-AMPS said:


> See Article 422.12:
> Central heating equipment other than fixed electric
> space-heating equipment shall be supplied
> by an individual branch circuit


I understand this. You also have to see the exceptions to that section. 

The way you worded it was a bit confusing.


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## MO-AMPS (Jan 16, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> I understand this. You also have to see the exceptions to that section.
> 
> The way you worded it was a bit confusing.


 
I seen the exceptions

Aw yeah! I'll watch the way i word or paraphrase different codes, the way you say something don't always come across the keyboard the same way.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

MO-AMPS said:


> Hey sparky I respect your view on polarity but what is missing with your view on furnace is that the board will not engergize the relay because of the opening and closing pressure safety switch on the induce motor,it have to have L1 are it will never work however it will work in the summer time to energize the setting for a/c.


I appreciate your attempts at understanding, but inrexpect to polarity there is no difference between hot and nuetral other than the neutral is grounded.

From the link I attached I learned the furnace will continually try to ignite if hot and neut are reversed. Though I can't understand why; if a switch is open then it is open end of story. Likewise to what you said; L1 and L2(or neutral or whatever it may be called) needs to be a closed circuit for current to flow. 
Haven't you ever come across a switched neutral? It works no differently than a switched hot, other than that the neutral is grounded somewhere and if you were to work on the 'switched neutral fixture' and completed the circuit to ground then you would get shocked.

Point is, you can switch L1 or L2/hot or neutral all with the same effect. and with AC current there is no distinguishing between "hot" and "not hot". It's simply a matter of "difference of potential", which with AC the difference changes 120 times per second.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Sparky Joe said:


> From the link I attached I learned the furnace will continually try to ignite if hot and neut are reversed. Though I can't understand why;


It's because on a grounded (3 wire) there is potential between the hot and neutral and between the hot and ground, there is none between the ground and neutral.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

mickeyco said:


> It's because on a grounded (3 wire) there is potential between the hot and neutral and between the hot and ground, there is none between the ground and neutral.


I thought about it and do understand why now, and thanks Mickey for your attempt at saying nothing. :whistling 

I've never seen one of these 'spark' units in a furnace or stove, but have built several barbecues which I believe have the same thing except manually powered.

These 'ignitors' are bolted to the case(to hold them in place), and that bond to the case gives them a case ground. With either hot or neutral isolated from the bond(but not both)

Well by manufacturer error this case bond happens to be on the hot side of the ignitor instead of the neutral, so therefore if 'polarity' is reversed the ignitor would continually spark, because the bond is on the hot side instead of neutral, if it were the other way around there would be a direct short and the installer would have to seek out the problem.

That sounded right when I thought of it, but now that I read it back it doesn't sound right. Let me draw a picture before I delete all this :laughing:


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Actually I can't see it.

I've done three drawings, all of which show a direct short if polarity is reversed, perhaps I need to look at one in real life because twice now I've heard this will happen(continuous spark if reversed)

Maybe I'll ask the guys at Holt's forum for a drawing :laughing:

Edit; Wait I think I've got it, it has to do with the coil...............


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

So here's what I came up with, though it doesn't entirely make sense to me, but is the only way my brain can see it happening.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Nevermind; I didn't include the 'spark' on the load side of the induction coil, though if I did I couldn't see any way for it to spark if the polarity were reversed.

So once again my drawing has failed


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Where's Tesla when we need him?


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