# Dead Outlet, Circuit



## TrblShooter (Oct 28, 2008)

> There is a bridge between the two screw terminals....a tab if you will. And I have seen them act in essence like a fuse. When the current becomes too great for that connecting tab to withstand it can sever, thus opening up the circuit


Learn something new everyday...
I've been doing resi and commercial repairs since 1985 and have never once seen that "tab" burnt out like a fuse.
I've seen wires melted, broken...screws loose, or wires popped out of stabs. Even outlets completely disintegrated or melted with the wires still firmly mounted to the screws and those tabs holding everything together.
Very interesting to hear that.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

JamesNLA said:


> THere is a bridge between the two screw terminals....a tab if you will. And I have seen them act in essence like a fuse. When the current becomes too great for that connecting tab to withstand it can sever, thus opening up the circuit.


:blink:

Just how many amps to you think it takes to melt that tab?

How much crap would be required to be plugged for that happen?

Why didn't the CB/fuse trip FIRST? 

It doesn't add up.

Barring any local amendments to the NEC, backstabbing and using devices as splice points is perfectly legal.

The problem occurs when a HO over loads the circuit and then does nothing to correct the situation ~ like lightening the load.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Celtic said:


> :blink:
> 
> Just how many amps to you think it takes to melt that tab?
> 
> ...


 I have seen 30 amp fuses where no more than a 20 was called for. Poster insinuated this had a lot of things plugged inti it via a muti plug device, I think. Maybe it was blowing fuses/breakers, and the ho first put a bigger fuse or breaker on the circuit.


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

Celtic said:


> :blink:
> 
> Just how many amps to you think it takes to melt that tab?
> 
> ...


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

TrblShooter said:


> Learn something new everyday...
> I've been doing resi and commercial repairs since 1985 and have never once seen that "tab" burnt out like a fuse.
> I've seen wires melted, broken...screws loose, or wires popped out of stabs. Even outlets completely disintegrated or melted with the wires still firmly mounted to the screws and those tabs holding everything together.
> Very interesting to hear that.



I do concur! 


NOPE!!!! 'Taint gonna/split/fry/diffuse/ break due to overload. Not here. Not now. Not then. Not never


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

AL wire can do that. 

If the wire was kinked at all, a full load can burn the wire, like burning a fuse.


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

Let me clear up some stuff: First, No Breakers were tripping! I have the house upgraded years ago to 200 amp panel. At that time I made sure breakers matched outlets/circuts. ie; If you have a 15 amp outlet, its getting a 15 amp breaker. I don't care if we have 12 ga wire there or not. In fact, unless I know for sure there is 12 ga for the entire circut, it gets a 15 amp breaker!

Now, I have never seen a tab melt, but I have seen (not in this house) entire outlets melt, even catch fire and the breakers never popped. Both breakers were 15 amp where that occured. I did, and still do expect to find either a bad connection that got hot and melted or the hot cold cycling of the heater loosened up a connection or somthing (what I am hoping for) or a failure at a wire staple (which will require some tear out to trace it. 

FYI: I have not gotten back there to trace the wires yet.


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## TrblShooter (Oct 28, 2008)

Hey LNG
Troubleshooting can make ya crazy, lord only knows who has had their hands in their since it was built.
When you say no breakers tripped..do you mean visually? Or did ya test each breaker for voltage? 
I'd start there above anything else 

If you have power at every breaker, then I'd move back into the room. You def need to get to that one outlet with furniture in front of it.
The logical thing would be it feeds from somewhere in the room or an adjoining one...outlet, switch, ceiling box. 
This is new work logic..daisy chained style.(Hub style is possible also..where each room has one hub that then single feeds to every other device in the room, usually a light).

The 2nd form of logic if it doesn't feed from the same or adjoining room, is from where else would be the easiest way to feed it. (from the basement up the side of the house outside, through the attic down the wall). Sometimes the craziest route which doesn't seem logical at all but was the easiest way to route the wires happens. 
This is old work logic..and the shortest run isn't always the easiest 
This is also called the "I need a damn beer" Logic sometimes lol
How many wires are in the outlet in question 1 blk, 1 wht ..2 of each, more?
If it is more then 1 pair..what else is out?
Good rule of thumb is to plug in a radio, volume turned up while you are searching around. That way if you happen to disturb the wiring that is "disconnected" you'll know it. A wire can be around a screw or in a backstab and look fine but not be making the proper contact.
Good luck to ya! 
Most likely you'll find it, say Ahah I see wth you were thinking now! :laughing:

For the record Im no fan of backstabbing, BUT I have found more melted devices that had wires around the screws and weren't tightened then anything. Most backstabs, if loose, just pop out...*shrug


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## JamesNLA (Jun 2, 2006)

MALCO.New.York said:


> I do concur!
> 
> 
> NOPE!!!! 'Taint gonna/split/fry/diffuse/ break due to overload. Not here. Not now. Not then. Not never


 
Should I run across another one in the next while, I'll be sure to photo it.

Electricity is funny like that...ya know, always finding the weakest link:laughing:


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

@TrblShooter,

There are three pair: One Hot (well not now ) , One to Ceiling Light and One to Switch for ceiling light. 

I have a wire trace device that wil let me trace it through the walls. so I can follow that currently dead Hot wire to see where it goes. 

Yeah, I tripped every breaker and reset it just to be sure. Hopefully I will get there next week and figure this out for him.


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## TrblShooter (Oct 28, 2008)

Heya LNG
I don't think its a breaker but until you put a volt meter on each one, you'll never know  Very often breakers can be shut off and on or tripped then reset and inside nothing happens, they just look on.

May I ask how you know 1 pair goes to the light and 1 pair to the switch?

If that is the case and the 3rd pair is the feed..the light wouldn't be working either. 
Is the light working?
How many wires in the light?

In the dead outlet were all the blks together and all the whts together or was 1 wht and 1 blk spliced together separately?

Hope ya don't mind the questions, I just enjoy figuring stuff out


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

No problem, well first I opend up the box. No, light is not working. I was told that use to be a switched outlet so seeing how it was no wired made sense. The ceiling light was added afterwards so they ran a feed from the switched outlet up into the ceiling then rewired the box so the outlet stayed live. 

I'll start scratching my head when I get behind the desk and find nothing. Otherwise I have all my cards riding on that. I know its not the breakers because every breaker is to a section or room, so if it were the breaker, there would be more than just one outlet out.


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## TrblShooter (Oct 28, 2008)

That is exactly what I was thinking, switched outlet changed into a ceiling light.
Yeah it most likely is the one outlet you haven't been able to check yet..always seems to be the least used outlet in the place.
Good luck and lemme know..willing to bet ya find a loose connection :thumbsup:


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