# So you call yourself a remodeler eh?



## BuildersII (Dec 20, 2009)

Why do you call yourself a remodeler?

In my opinion, there are two basic types of remodelers / general contractors. The guys who project manage and sub pretty much everything out, and the guys who have learned multiple trades over the years and do as much as possible themselves. The second type are like handymen, but in my eyes what separates a handyman from a remodeler is project size and competency. The title of handyman denotes kind of a shadetree guy who knows how to fix things, whereas remodeler denotes a professional who is competent enough in the multiple trades necessary to carry out a complete remodel. The question is, do you guys think this is possible without being considered a hack by the more specific trades?

I've noticed on this board a lot of contempt towards people who try to take on other trade's work, but if you've been trained properly by people in the past, who's to say you can't do it? Obviously there are the hacks that give everyone a bad name, and they will always be with us like the weather, however I only consider a hack as someone who botches a job and flees. No amount of licensing or regulation will stop them, and trying to fight them is often a fruitless pursuit that only makes it more difficult for real contractors to carry out there trades.

I also think that hacks have given everyone who called themselves a handyman, jack of all trades, or remodeler a bad name. I've known many very skillful remodelers who do just about everything themselves because they wanted to learn more. Often times this meant educating themselves on the job as they developed, but every one of them had the integrity to produce a quality result in the end.

After 10 minutes of editing this post, I realize it's a bunch of rambling, but what I want to ask is this: how many of you guys out there do your common remodels from start to finish entirely yourselves? Obviously we all have to sub specialty stuff, but I'm talking more common stuff like rearranging an existing drain, running a new circuit or two, tiling, painting, drywall patching, etc.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

I don't do everything myself,more like 50/60%...I know my limits and only do things that I am proficient at.I would consider myself competent as I have never had a customer not happy with the finished product and I get a lot of referrals.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Who said I said I was a remodeler? :laughing:


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

BuildersII said:


> what I want to ask is this: how many of you guys out there do your common remodels from start to finish entirely yourselves? Obviously we all have to sub specialty stuff, but I'm talking more common stuff like rearranging an existing drain, running a new circuit or two, tiling, painting, drywall patching, etc.


I do everything I can legally and competently do myself.

Footings/foundation.
Framing, doors and windows.
Insulation/VB.
Drywall. (not more than a room or 2 though, I'm not nearly fast enough)
Paint.
Flooring. (Vinyl, laminate, hardwood, tile, flooring guys can have the carpet installs)
Trim.
Roofing/siding, soffit, fascia. (I hire out stucco)


I won't run a new circuit, but I'm not afraid to move a switch (provided the wire length lets me)

Shift a drain for a new tub? Sure.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Our projects are predominately mid-high end bathrooms. We do everything except electrical and painting (I friggin hate painting!). We do have a custom cabinet shop we use for the bigger jobs and I let them do the installs.

I'm sure some plumbers will say "you need to be licensed to do plumbing", however, I have opened up a lot of walls and floors to find the "original" plumbing to be wrong in many ways. The last job we finished there was 2 (out of 6) floor joists that had sections cut completely out - one for the toilet drain and one for the tub drain. I have found so many drains with a negative slope, it isn't funny! 

If I do not feel I can do something, and do it absolutely correctly, I will bring in someone who can.


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## MAD Renovations (Nov 18, 2007)

I work in the same manner as Shane.... I do just about everything myself that with the exception of electric and plumbing.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

I do most things myself--(that will get a few people steaming)

I was trained by some top of the trade guys--and I've been at it a long time.--Mike--


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## Paulie (Feb 11, 2009)

It used to be I wanted to do everything but as time has gone along I do less and less. I don't touch roofs as a rule. Sparkies get all my electric unless it's VERY simple. I do a lot of drywall finishing but try to let the youngsters hang it as long as I supervise. I try to sub out painting but somehow or another I wind up doing that a lot too. 

My goal is to be able to sit in the office when I want and go into the field when I want to also. It seems like everyone in the office craves the simple peace of mind out in the field and the guys in the field want the office work. A mixture of both on my terms is my dream. Pipe dream that is. :laughing:

Hmmm, kinda strayed from the topic. fftopic:


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

paulie said:


> It used to be I wanted to do everything but as time has gone along I do less and less. I don't touch roofs as a rule. Sparkies get all my electric unless it's VERY simple. I do a lot of drywall finishing but try to let the youngsters hang it as long as I supervise. I try to sub out painting but somehow or another I wind up doing that a lot too.
> 
> My goal is to be able to sit in the office when I want and go into the field when I want to also. It seems like everyone in the office craves the simple peace of mind out in the field and the guys in the field want the office work. A mixture of both on my terms is my dream. Pipe dream that is. :laughing:
> 
> Hmmm, kinda strayed from the topic. fftopic:


I feel the same way...I like to get my hands dirty but I hate having an aching back...:laughing:I try not to do things that require bending over.Some guy's prefer that kinda' stuff...RS comes to mind.


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## Frank P (Nov 2, 2009)

jarvis design said:


> Our projects are predominately mid-high end bathrooms. We do everything except electrical and painting (I friggin hate painting!). We do have a custom cabinet shop we use for the bigger jobs and I let them do the installs.
> 
> I'm sure some plumbers will say "you need to be licensed to do plumbing", however, I have opened up a lot of walls and floors to find the "original" plumbing to be wrong in many ways. The last job we finished there was 2 (out of 6) floor joists that had sections cut completely out - one for the toilet drain and one for the tub drain. I have found so many drains with a negative slope, it isn't funny!
> 
> If I do not feel I can do something, and do it absolutely correctly, I will bring in someone who can.


Thats me too.


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## jamesclerie (Mar 6, 2009)

I may be younger or dumber than most of you guys but I do almost every thing my self I am a fast learner and have a lot of good "old" guys that I can call on for questions. I just finished a total bathroom remodel down to the studs and back up. The only thing I did not do was bull nosing the granite I cut it to size and cut the sink and faucet openings "my first time cutting granite" I build my own cabinets, tile, plumbing, electrical, drywall the works I like to do something different every day keeps me sane I am not a repetitive kind of guy. One of my commercial customers always calls me and it starts with James I'm not sure if you can but I need ...... my answer is always let me take a look. so far so good


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## BuildersII (Dec 20, 2009)

jamesclerie said:


> I may be younger or dumber than most of you guys but I do almost every thing my self I am a fast learner and have a lot of good "old" guys that I can call on for questions. I just finished a total bathroom remodel down to the studs and back up. The only thing I did not do was bull nosing the granite I cut it to size and cut the sink and faucet openings "my first time cutting granite" I build my own cabinets, tile, plumbing, electrical, drywall the works I like to do something different every day keeps me sane I am not a repetitive kind of guy. One of my commercial customers always calls me and it starts with James I'm not sure if you can but I need ...... my answer is always let me take a look. so far so good


You're a brave man cutting granite. There's a company in town we use for countertops like that because they'll take full responsibility if it breaks. :laughing:

On the whole "not a repetitive guy" I'm the same way. I like to do something different each day. If I were working a union job in the city where I had to do 30 floors of the same thing for 10 weeks at a time, I'd hang myself.


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## BuildersII (Dec 20, 2009)

shanekw1 said:


> I won't run a new circuit, but I'm not afraid to move a switch (provided the wire length lets me)


I'm afraid to admit that I run new circuits (most commonly for whirlpool tubs because a dedicated circuit is required), because the sparkies on here will yell at me for it. I do it correctly for what it's worth, but that's about all I do that I'm not technically supposed to. You won't find me setting sub panels, running new service or building tesla coils.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

How do you guys pull permits for plumbing and/or electrical if you're not licensed?
And will your insurance cover you for doing working you're not licensed for if something goes wrong?


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

angus242 said:


> How do you guys pull permits for plumbing and/or electrical if you're not licensed?
> And will your insurance cover you for doing working you're not licensed for if something goes wrong?


Speaking for myself I can legally do all trades except fire sprinklers and well drilling as long as the scope of the job includes two or more trades that are not framing or carpentry.I can't just do a job that is only a bunch of can lights by themselves.

So yes my insurance covers me because I am licensed to do the work under the right circumstances.


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## Cjeff (Dec 14, 2009)

I started out in a cabinet shop, then did insurance claims, then managed a lumber yard, then new home construction, and been doing remodels ever since. 
I will do just about all of it from foundations to finishing and most steps in-between. I know I am not necessarily the fastest at all of them but in many instances I can not get someone to come and do a small job, or if they will come if may be a week or 2 wait, so to keep the job moving I am better to do it myself even if it takes me 4 hours compared to their 2 hours.


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## BuildersII (Dec 20, 2009)

angus242 said:


> How do you guys pull permits for plumbing and/or electrical if you're not licensed?
> And will your insurance cover you for doing working you're not licensed for if something goes wrong?


Good question. We know an electrician who prefers commercial work, and for a fee he'll inspect our work and let us work under his license. His insurance covers us. As for plumbing, we hardly ever do enough to require a permit. In our city you can move plumbing lines up to 6' without a permit or license. We have a class B builders license ourselves for any structural work that has to be done.


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## CARPENTERDON (Jun 30, 2005)

20 years ago I had aspirations of building a huge "construction corporation" with a fleet of trucks and workers, but learned quickly that being bigger isn't always (rarely is it) better. IMHO. . .:whistling I decided to stay small, no more then 1 or 2 workers. So that being the case, here is my story. . . .

I started out working with my uncle on historical homes, in the town where I grew up, doing renovations and/or restorations. My uncle knew a very good Master Plumber and Master Electrician that he grew up with. I studied and worked with them (as time allowed) over a 12 year period.

From John the plumber, I learned to cut, thread and fit black and galvanized pipe, cut and set cast iron stacks (later PVC & ABS), solder copper, install water heaters, toilets, etc. (entire house plumbing).

From Rusty the electrician, I learned to set breaker panels, run 110 & 220, switch knob & tube for Romex, entire house wiring, install all different types lighting fixtures, GFI's, GFCI's, surge protectors, multiple switch set-ups, etc.

Besides having my own business, I have worked for my Mom's boss whom is a registered Architect and Structural Engineer on various commercial projects over the last 25 years. Through these commercial projects I've been very fortunate to work with some of the top electrical & mechanical engineers and commercial sub-contractors in the trades:

Excavators, masons, steel setters, drywallers, tile setters, painters, HVAC, & others, and I have been schooled pretty thoroughly through hands-on experience to the point that I can do all phases of construction, and have on occasion.

But, as others have posted, if for some reason I don't feel confident in doing something myself, I can call on that particular trade to come and do it.

If I am building a log home I do the entire house (turn-key), but I leave the final water & electrical hook-ups and testing to the pros.

And, as stated in another post, my clientele like to call me and say _"I'm not sure if you can do whatever they need done, but I was wondering if you could come and take a look and let me know and how much?"_


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## Monroe99 (Apr 28, 2010)

I don't think so.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Monroe99 said:


> I don't think so.


Nice first post.


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## BuildersII (Dec 20, 2009)

mike gunderson said:


> There should be a license that a general contractor can get for basic house wiring and plumbing.


EXACTLY. There are plenty of jobs where a specialist is needed, but running the basics in residential is usually pretty cut and dried.


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## mike gunderson (May 23, 2010)

I appreciate your posts builders II, Here in montana they have a contractors licensing law for about 75$ a year also. Anyone can get it, just pay the state. We still have electricians in our area who were grandfathered in. They havn't taken any tests or schooling for years. Our local inspector came to a job one day and I was running romex. He asked who was doing the wiring. What can you say? He just smiled and gave me a little booklet on all the recent updates to the codes. These booklets are made for homeowners, but they know the contractors are doing it so why not help them out. Where I live everyone knows everyone. If I screw up I won't get work.


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## Cmpletehomeserv (Jan 12, 2010)

On a major kitchen or bath remodel I will do the gutting, the framing and the trim work. Sub out plumbing, electrical, drywall, most cabinet installs and painting. I CAN do most everything, but usually don't tackle plumbing or electrical myself.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

I wouldn't consider a handyman less competent, it's just a different trade than a remodeler. I'm a remodeler, but I've advertised as a handyman before, and had people call me a handyman. However, I don't do that now because I don't feel I have the right skills or know enough about the trade to be a handyman. I know enough about carpentry, but a competent handyman should know something about fixing appliances, and be real knowledgeable in plumbing repair, which I am not.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

BuildersII said:


> Holy crap is this right. We've hired over 25 separate "employees" over the past 10 years out of over 200 applicants, and all of them were *far *less skilled than they let on in interviews. Quality control goes out the window when you become a commodity based "move sales in and out" contractor.


Ask them test questions. You can ask them how they go about building a deck, or say they were framing, ask how they would plate a floor. Hand them a tape measure and ask them to measure a door opening in the room, see if they can read a 1/16".


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

this is a good thread/question. i consider myself a handyman in large part because i don't do nearly the size work that a renovator/remodeler would. i'm not coming into someone's house with a few guys and doing additions or $50k jobs. i come in and help with the little stuff that people don't have time for. whether it's small stuff that the diyer could do but doesn't have time for (the aforementioned garbage disposal, troubleshooting a broken appliance, little paint jobs, adding a can or two to a room) or bigger stuff like building a deck (which some carpenters are too busy to tackle at a low cost). my customers trust me to do the job right or refer them to someone who can when it's outside of my expertise.
i've taken several classes at the local community college in carpentry and electrical as well as working for an electrician and a tilesetter. there's definitely a gap in the market for the guy who is willing to take on a job under $1,000 and that's where i think i fit in, for now.


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## William James (Mar 5, 2010)

aptpupil said:


> this is a good thread/question. i consider myself a handyman in large part because i don't do nearly the size work that a renovator/remodeler would. i'm not coming into someone's house with a few guys and doing additions or $50k jobs. i come in and help with the little stuff that people don't have time for. whether it's small stuff that the diyer could do but doesn't have time for (the aforementioned garbage disposal, troubleshooting a broken appliance, little paint jobs, adding a can or two to a room) or bigger stuff like building a deck (which some carpenters are too busy to tackle at a low cost). my customers trust me to do the job right or refer them to someone who can when it's outside of my expertise.
> i've taken several classes at the local community college in carpentry and electrical as well as working for an electrician and a tilesetter. there's definitely a gap in the market for the guy who is willing to take on a job under $1,000 and that's where i think i fit in, for now.


I think you hit it there. Right there on the head!
Handyman is a DIYer that gets paid. Absolutely, nothing wrong with that. If you do a good job, what you're paid to do... 

A remodeler: depends. Their are hacks in every aspect of construction. From new, GC, carpenter, plumber... It's the quality, knowledge, and execution of the job that matters. A true "all remodeler" has a thorough knowledge of whatever they do and they get it done right!


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

Handyman is a DIYer that gets paid.>>>>>>>>>>

Or someone like me that has spent 30+ years in the trade and like to fix things and get paid a little.:thumbsup:


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## Flip flop Rob (Aug 23, 2010)

I'm a handyman that is constantly fixing plumbers wiring and electricians pipes, as well as carpenters painting and roofers framing. And everything the HO touches.
That is where a true handyman comes into play. I can fix anything as well as a tradesman in a specific field. I know most of you don't believe me, but most "pros" work is not up to my standards. And usually only up to code on the surface. Seems like everyone is looking for a paycheck instead of true pride in their work. Which is why I do 100% of all my jobs and haven't had to advertise in 20 years. 
OK, there is the 4 way switches that take me a minute or two to wire, and the one time I was in too big a hurry to call 811.... very, very bad day!


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Flip flop Rob said:


> I'm a handyman that is constantly fixing plumbers wiring and electricians pipes, as well as carpenters painting and roofers framing. And everything the HO touches.
> That is where a true handyman comes into play. I can fix anything as well as a tradesman in a specific field. I know most of you don't believe me, but most "pros" work is not up to my standards. And usually only up to code on the surface. Seems like everyone is looking for a paycheck instead of true pride in their work. Which is why I do 100% of all my jobs and haven't had to advertise in 20 years.
> OK, there is the 4 way switches that take me a minute or two to wire, and the one time I was in too big a hurry to call 811.... very, very bad day!


Go easy on him Finley.....:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

That reminded me. I see a Construction company with the name rehak handyman :blink: I think they could have chosen a better name for their business. The mess of a van they were driving about in didn't do them any favours either.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

That may be the case, Rob. I think the discussion is more about a big job and not coming in after the fact to fix something small. Would you be contracted to rewire a 30 year old kitchen that needs 3 new circuits and GFIs to be brought up to code? Guys that do that kind of work do compete against fly-by-night, unlicensed "contractors". 

Yes, there are many situations a legitimately licensed/registered, insured handyman would be the best choice. I'm sure there are many times you are following up a hack as well as a legit guy who just didn't get a crap. There is no making up for someone who doesn't care.


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## Flip flop Rob (Aug 23, 2010)

Don't you think I'm constantly getting stereotyped as a "shade tree" remodeler.
But my customers will NOT let anyone touch their homes unless it's my suggestion. 
I do pass on big jobs to builder friends after years of seeing their work.
And yes I can and have wired and plumbed new homes, ground up. OK, bring it on........


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Flip flop Rob said:


> And yes I can and have wired and plumbed new homes, ground up. OK, bring it on........


Question:

In your area, is doing electrical and plumbing legal without a license?
Some areas (but very few) are.

Why not add your location to your profile if you don't mind.


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

rselectric1 said:


> Question:
> 
> In your area, is doing electrical and plumbing legal without a license?
> Some areas (but very few) are.
> ...


Not required here except the cities. Still won't do anymore than basic stuff though. Electricians and plumbers have to eat also!!:laughing:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

rselectric1 said:


> In your area, is doing electrical and plumbing legal without a license?
> Some areas (but very few) are.


I'm excited to find out where Rob works his wonders too, but I believe you may be incorrect about that, Ron.

That sort of licensing is prevalent in the larger population centers, but as far as I know, in the more sparsely populated regions--which comprise the great majority of the USA--plumbing and electrical licensing is the exception rather than the rule. In PA, for example, I believe there are no more than a dozen or so towns/cities with such licensing.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

Tinstaafl said:


> I'm excited to find out where Rob works his wonders too, but I believe you may be incorrect about that, Ron.
> 
> That sort of licensing is prevalent in the larger population centers, but as far as I know, in the more sparsely populated regions--which comprise the great majority of the USA--plumbing and electrical licensing is the exception rather than the rule. In PA, for example, I believe there are no more than a dozen or so towns/cities with such licensing.


The whole state of California requires it.......


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

I know, JJ, and FL as well. But how many states out of the 50?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> I'm excited to find out where Rob works his wonders too, but I believe you may be incorrect about that, Ron.
> 
> That sort of licensing is prevalent in the larger population centers, but as far as I know, in the more sparsely populated regions--which comprise the great majority of the USA--plumbing and electrical licensing is the exception rather than the rule. In PA, for example, I believe there are no more than a dozen or so towns/cities with such licensing.


I know Tin. I am aware that licenses aren't needed in many areas in the US-much to my surprise after being around here awhile:laughing:. Hence my question.

Rob may well know his stuff. (don't know) 


Around here though, doing plumbing or electrical without a license is VERY illegal. Florida and California are very tough on this too. 

Just trying to establish whether it is required in his area. That's all.


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## Flip flop Rob (Aug 23, 2010)

Well, I guess the fact that I'm in Alabama could account for a lot of my experiences. Plenty of yahoos here that think they can run vinyl siding (or whatever) because they "did it" for 2 weeks. I'm sure the vast majority of pros here at Contractortalk do take great pride in their work, as I do. But for every one of us there is a handfull of hammer wielding guys who should be limited to operating a broom. And I have a master plumber and electrician I've known for about 10 yrs who I have occasionally paid to "help me" on bigger jobs, but they only handle permits and inspect my work if they or I feel they need to. 

BTW, Hi all. Been popping in for a while as a spectator, but thought I'd join and take a few minutes to add my $.02

Rob


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