# Violating the codes with corregated metal wall ties



## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Hopefully, it is not the QUANTITY of my posts he was referring to, but the QUALITY. But hey, I am wrong just as much as the next guy and do not claim to be an expert, just someone in the industry who has an active interest in learning, and a willingness to state an opinion.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

I need to put my dictionary down. Too many new words I had to look up.

I know nothing about wall ties and what kind are supposed to be used, but I do know that different parts of the country have different applications. Even next state over. Hell, maybe next county.

The point is, you may just be right. And it is possible that everyone is right. You are telling everyone that they are using the wrong tie. They are telling you that it is perfectly acceptable where they are, code wise.

I've read TScar's posts for years and he has demonstrated knowledge in the masonry field that is second to none. 

I've read your posts and have seen nothing that demonstrates knowledge pertaining to nationally acceptable code and/or practices. 

I've seen many members come on here and in 2 posts have demonstrated their extensive capabilities. How they went about it is vastly different than the way you are going about it. One word describes the difference: influence.


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## Willy is (May 20, 2010)

fjn said:


> You know what, people usually respond others in kind.


I've got to agree with t_hat_ one.

I'm a somewhat newer member and don't have a dog in this hunt. My casual observation is that people are responding in kind to your rather unfriendly style.

In another thread you engaged in kind of a "shaming" post;



fjn said:


> I was just going back over a few topics today. I ran across pictures . That was a pretty good size fireplace you were building. I just wanted to bring it to your attention along with all the viewers that the use of *corrugated metal wall ties are NEVER permited with ANY facing material ever.*


 (bolds my emphasis-willy)

Hey, I don't know the answer. I think you may be correct on certain jobs and in certain jurisdictions. I think you are painting with a pretty broad brush when you state the *"fact"* that the ties are never, ever, permitted anywhere. I assume that is *even* in places where no code exists or where such code exists but the issue of ties is not defined or addressed. This even seems to be in contrast to what other members report about their own local code. So far as code goes I would also want "facing material" to be better defined than you did; just a blanket denial.

It looks to me as though the actual truth of the matter is that such wall ties may be forbidden in *some* circumstances, it is then appropriate to list those types of jobs, be it federal or state funded, or by area adopted code.

Understand, I think you are right, _in some circumstances_. I just think you are wrong because it isn't in *all* circumstances, forever and ever, across the universe. : )

Sooooooo..... my view is that information is being possibly incorrectly offered as "fact" without proper qualifiers.

In addition you come off as kinda hostile and seem intent upon proving yourself as "right", labeling others as wrong and a little lacking in basic human relations skills. 



fjn said:


> After you read ALL the papers presented at the 2005 LIME SYMPOSIUM you will possibly sing a different tune. You dont have to believe me i have nothing to gain or lose by your belief or disbelief. However if you close your mind to the possibily that there is a difference then you have a closed mind thats all.


It's hard to have an exchange of information under such circumstances. It's not information exchange, its a dual to the death.  

Ask yourself; does this only happen in professional forums or are you often engaged in such turmoil?

Some people bring joy wherever they go, and some people bring joy whenever they go.” - Mark Twain.

Which one are you? 

There is a better way for you to communicate all that you think you know.

Willy


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Well said Willy:thumbsup:


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

fjn said:


> N. J. BRICKIE If you guys are using wall ties to bond intersecting C.M. U. walls, i implore you to use pre-formed T wire that is exactly what it is made for. Also the same companies that make those (there numerous) produce pre-formed corner wire .


I know what preformed T wire is and what it it used for. We also use that at times. It all depends on what is allowed and what is spec-ed. I am sure T wire is more effective, but if that is not what the customer paid for they will not get it.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Normally in this area, this is what is specified for intersecting loadbearing walls, along with horizontal reinforcing tees.

http://wirebond.com/?page_id=2020


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

I have used rigid steel ties in the past also. This area is not prone to earthquakes/hurricanes so alot of types of reinforcement are not used frequently. When we do see reinforcement out of the ordinary (excessive sized/amount re-bar, excessive grout, rigid steel ties) it tends to be for government work or from an architect/engineer that is not from the area. Seems like some of the national chains used a "cookie cutter" type approach to engineering in the past. Where their buildings could be built anywhere with the specs they were using, not catering them to be site specific. Things have changed though in my experience and they are now individually engineering buildings to specific regions.

The wall ties are used for intersecting non-load bearing walls. They are used for load bearing walls but are usually used in conjunction with one or multiple continuous bond beams.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Tscarborough said:


> Hopefully, it is not the QUANTITY of my posts he was referring to, but the QUALITY. But hey, I am wrong just as much as the next guy and do not claim to be an expert, just someone in the industry who has an active interest in learning, and a willingness to state an opinion.


Dont worry about it. Based on the posts of yours that I have read, I think you know what you`re talking about.:thumbsup:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Fj, I think your heart is in the right place, but your head ain't following. 

Lot's of guys get off to a rough start finding themselves on this forum and new members who come off as overly aggressive, know it alls,... will soon feel the wrath.

Many knowledgeable people on this forum take pride in what they do so I'm sure you can understand that. Nobody likes being force fed information that's delivered with a sharp tongue that seems ready for combat. 

Your obviously somewhat of a smart guy who could probably further this forum with content and dialog - just wish you'd change the context of the delivery. 

Personally, I think if you worded your observations differently in the first post - you could have really ran with this and gained some of the respect your obviously looking for... not that there's anything wrong with that :no:

In conclusion, I didn't like the Mr 10 post comment either, but realize that many people come and go on this site and post count is only one of the barometers used in gauging.

I, for one, welcome you to the site and hope you can understand what i'm saying.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Well said superseal. I'll bid you goodnight now, it's nearly midnight here.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

superseal said:


> Fj, I think your heart is in the right place, but your head ain't following.
> 
> Lot's of guys get off to a rough start finding themselves on this forum and new members who come off as overly aggressive, know it alls,... will soon feel the wrath.
> 
> ...


Good points. Post numbers are irrelevant and its about the quality of the comment that mattters...like Tscar mentioned. Obviously, people do things differently, technique and skill levels vary..all these factors can shape opinions. Throwing out black and white statements will bring the heat...BUT keeping it civil will offer learning opportunity.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

post numbers are not irrelevant,they help gauge who your talking to 

the mr 10 post just signifies the type of person your dealing with..usually come from an attitude problem

one that plays well with others or one that wants to show how smart they think they are,the later are usually not here very long so i could give 2 shlitz about them

come on here and show alittle respect and respect will be reciprocated...just like in ''real'' life...simple as that


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, youre probably not going to get a whole lot of friends when you show up and call someone out on a situation that you think you know everything about. Not too mention in someone elses thread, then you go and start a whole other thread, and basically call the person out again. 

Maybe you should start over with a new name and try again.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

When I first joined, I came on pretty strong about discussing pricing. Not just because it is pretty much pointless, but also because it could be construed as a Sherman violation. I took a lot of heat, and was probably called a "10 post" but I was and am right, and I tried to keep the discussion professional and informational. I did not let it bother me, and still consider this a forum where we can discuss issues that affect us in a calm and rational manner.

We all have something to bring to the table, and I have learned an incredible amount by participating in the discussion.

Now, Answer the question:

What is the purpose of ties in a cavity wall veneer?


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Tom Struble said:


> post numbers are not irrelevant,they help gauge who your talking to


Irrelevant as it relates to content of message.


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## Robyone (Nov 30, 2008)

Maybe you should start over with a new name and try again.[/QUOTE]

:laughing:...now thats funny! :jester:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*one more time*

Back to the initial post that lead to all this. As time has passed many have visited the MACONLINE.ORG site. Their FAX # is 847-297-8373 . I do not know if one can contact them on line. I'am aware various codes exist. So far the only ones presented came from here. If this is for sharing of knowledge,i'am all for it. So PLEASE share it wiyh me. Here is the one i have talked about. INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE for 1&2 units 2006. Go to section R 608. MULTTIPLE WYTHE MASONRY. R608.1 GENERAL it will reference R608.1.1 R608 1.2 OR R608.1.3 R608.1.1 & R608.1.3 are n/a read them if you wish. Those codes are very precise,and require no interpretation. I truly believe all who visit this site do so for the love of the craft If they did not they would be in gin mill getting into a stupor to blockout their job not reading about it here. Therefore i heartily applaud your efforts. In all seriousness not for the sake of oneupmanship but for the dispersal of knowledge,please share your applicable codes. Thank you in advance.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Tscarborough said:


> Now, Answer the question:
> 
> What is the purpose of ties in a cavity wall veneer?


He hasn't had his answer yet.
This is a clue.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

stuart45 said:


> He hasn't had his answer yet.
> This is a clue.
> View attachment 55229




A free-standing wall of a burning structure can also become unstable and fall outward during extremely cold weather. If the inside surface of the masonry wall is heated by the fire while the outside surface remains cold, unequal expansion of the masonry will occur; the heated inside of the wall will expand and the outside contract, causing the wall to lean outward and possibly to fall. Large accumulations of ice forming on the outside of a wall can cause it to become unstable and fall, regardless of the temperature of the inside surface. The force of a large-caliber stream of water can also be a destabilizing factor capable of causing a masonry wall to collapse. Directed from one side of a fire building against the inside of a freestanding wall, a high-pressure aerial stream can be powerful enough to cause the wall to collapse outward onto firefighters operating on the outer side of the building.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

That one was down to wall tie failure.
http://www.petercox.com/cavitywallties.php


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Wall tie failure will not always cause a wall to fail. The primary purpose is NOT to tie the wythes together, it is more subtle than that. Look to the engineering requirements of the tie system for a hint.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*not a cavity wall*

STUART 45 There are several reasons this question remains unanswered. First,the wall in question was not a cavity wall by the true sense of the term. If it were attempted to be built as one matters would be even worse. Reasons being,the codes i provided in last post were derived directly from the adoption of NCMA-TEK#60. If one were to read it paying close attention to sec.6O4-3 it clearly explains the limits of a cavity wall. In fact, if the wall in question met that the corregated ties would fall way short, for tie requirements for cavity wall ties. I appreciate your attempt to give me a clue,however the interjection of cavity wall discusion is not on track with the core topic. At some point those who claimed exemption,claiming it was commercial codes will have to address the residential code i provided.When that has been accomplished we can move on to other wall systems. Regards


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Code is fallible. Remember code that required ties with drips? The important thing is to understand why you do something, not just read the book and do what it says.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

fjn said:


> Back to the initial post that lead to all this. As time has passed many have visited the MACONLINE.ORG site. Their FAX # is 847-297-8373 . I do not know if one can contact them on line. I'am aware various codes exist. So far the only ones presented came from here. If this is for sharing of knowledge,i'am all for it. So PLEASE share it wiyh me. Here is the one i have talked about. INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE for 1&2 units 2006. Go to section R 608. MULTTIPLE WYTHE MASONRY. R608.1 GENERAL it will reference R608.1.1 R608 1.2 OR R608.1.3 R608.1.1 & R608.1.3 are n/a read them if you wish. Those codes are very precise,and require no interpretation. I truly believe all who visit this site do so for the love of the craft If they did not they would be in gin mill getting into a stupor to blockout their job not reading about it here. Therefore i heartily applaud your efforts. In all seriousness not for the sake of oneupmanship but for the dispersal of knowledge,please share your applicable codes. Thank you in advance.


You started this whole thread as an attack on another member here and the a project that they worked on. You apparently assumed that the project fell under 2006 IRC standards. The project was actually in Wisconsin, where we operate under our own Uniform Dwelling Codes for residential 1-2 families. I think the onus is on you to either prove that corrugated wall ties are NOT ALLOWED in this situation per WI codes, or you simply appologize for throwing out an ignorant blanket (false) statement................


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*post codes*

Please post the verbage from the Wi. code that explains the usage of ties in this application T.U.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Answer the simple question:

What is the purpose of wall ties?


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

fjn -

Where were you with your pompous opinions during the that last 20+ years that we wrote the predecessor to the first ACI 530 code and specifications that were the basis for the various model codes? Also were ever around for the subsequent upgrades and revisions?

Not all model codes are accepted verbatim by local jurisdictions because of local conditions, but the legally modified model code is the legal minimum allowed and is tighter (not looser) than the national model code..

I also do not think I noticed you in the committees on the ASTM standards for testing and materials.

It takes a long time, knowledge and experience to be recognized to be a voting member on a major code. It took me 20 years of committee activity to get on ASTM and MSJC/ACI 530 committees. This is a GOOD thing because you learn and see a lot during that period and you gain a lot of experience, also talk to a lot of others with similar interests and background, so you eventually become better qualified than someone with just an unfounded opinion on a subject. Otherwise, you can be looked on as hair-brained, opinionated person that as been hiding and really unexposed to the real world for construction problems, materials, standards and the practical enforcement. I just was informed that there was a testing program that will change/increase the allowable strength for loadbearing masonry structures above the woefully old and conservative allowable strengths for the present materials since few producers do not bother to test for strength (unless legislatively required) since the normal products are 50% to 100% over the current minimums. It will takes years to recognize the new test results.

Some of the groups that are involved in the process are there just to prove activity and gain political points for the rank and file members. There is one group that is very politically inclined for public appearance, but not respected in the industry.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

There is your real expert. He knows more about masonry than the rest of us combined.

I will go ahead and answer for you:

The purpose of wall ties is to prevent deflection of the veneer. Inwards and outwards, but the design criteria are primarily for inwards, i.e. air pressure against the walls.

In seismic code an attempt is made to also prevent detachment, but for normal code that is not a primary design criteria.

So how is this relevant?

Because a corrugated wall tie that is properly installed exceeds the design criteria for both positive and negative air pressure.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

fjn said:


> Please post the verbage from the Wi. code that explains the usage of ties in this application T.U.


(7) MASONRY VENEERS. (a) Veneer over frame construction.
1. Masonry veneers may be corbeled over the foundation wall, but
the corbeling shall not exceed one inch.
2. A minimum one−inch air space shall be provided between
the veneer and the sheathing unless a manufactured offset material
is used.
3. Where no brick ledge is formed in the foundation wall, corrosion resistant metal or other water−resistant flashing shall
extend over the top of the foundation wall from the outside face
of the wall and shall extend at least 6 inches up on the sheathing.
The flashing shall be installed to drain any water outward.
4. Weep holes shall be provided at the bottom masonry course
at maximum intervals of 2 feet.
5. Ventilation openings shall be provided at the top of the
wall.
Note: The ventilation opening could be other than a weep hole.
6. Studs and sheathing behind masonry veneer shall be covered with material used to construct the water−resistive barrier as
required under s. Comm 21.24 (4).
Note: Acceptable water−resistive barrier materials include polymeric−based
house wraps and #15 or greater asphalt−saturated felts that comply with ASTM D 226
for type I felt.
7. Masonry or brick veneer shall be above final exterior grade
unless there is through−wall flashing at grade or within 2 courses
above grade.
(b) Veneer over masonry back−up. Corrosion−resistant metal
or other water−resistant base flashing shall be provided at the bottom of the veneer and shall extend over the top of the foundation
and up at least 6 inches and be embedded in the back−up course.
The flashing shall be installed to drain any water outward. Weep
holes shall be provided at maximum intervals of 3 feet.
*(c) Veneer attachment. Veneers shall be anchored or adhered
in accordance with ACI 530 and ACI 530.1.*




I'm sure you already know that ACI 530 & 530.1 both list corrugated wall ties as an acceptable tie....................


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

I wonder if they considered wind loading in the 1800's when cavity walls were first being built. Here's some of the early wall ties. The iron ones are quite dangerous. The terracotta ones are not so common, as you need to cut quarter closers to cover them on the facework.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

:drink:





:boxing: :gun_bandana: :2guns: :tank:

 :help: :surrender: :hang:






:drink:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*time to apoligize*

It appears from the recently posted info.regarding the usage i stand corrected. The allowing or not,varies more then i was aware! As a result it has been shown to me that in WI. they are allowed. As a result of my error, I APOLOGIZE ,to the viewers,and especially to those in WI. (for they were most affected) by this. I regret this mistake. I'am currently eating my humble pie. Not just a real big piece,but the whole pie. There are several lessons to be aware of. All codes are NOT universal, check and double check to see what may apply in the area one is doing work in F.J.N.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Stuart, in the 1800's and before they designed with more of an empirical bent, as evidenced by the size of those ties. The intention was the same, even if they did not have more than rough estimates of the requirements. That is not to say that they were not experts, a lot of the knowledge of masonry construction that they possessed we seem to have forgotten, intentionally or otherwise.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

fjn said:


> It appears from the recently posted info.regarding the usage i stand corrected. The allowing or not,varies more then i was aware! As a result it has been shown to me that in WI. they are allowed. As a result of my error, I APOLOGIZE ,to the viewers,and especially to those in WI. (for they were most affected) by this. I regret this mistake. I'am currently eating my humble pie. Not just a real big piece,but the whole pie. There are several lessons to be aware of. All codes are NOT universal, check and double check to see what may apply in the area one is doing work in F.J.N.


That is a very respectable reply, and I for one appreciate it. We all make mistakes, it how you handle them that shows your character.

Welcome to CT FJN


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

Thank you for the apology, and thank you to all the rest who helped clear the air, jomama,tscar.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Good man, FJN, I have eaten my share and while the taste of humble pie is bitter, it is filling.


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## [email protected] (Jan 10, 2010)

This is why you dont argue with the guys with 4000 post. lol


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> This is why you dont argue with the guys with 4000 post. lol


lol :smartass:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

fjn said:


> It appears from the recently posted info.regarding the usage i stand corrected. The allowing or not,varies more then i was aware! As a result it has been shown to me that in WI. they are allowed. As a result of my error, I APOLOGIZE ,to the viewers,and especially to those in WI. (for they were most affected) by this. I regret this mistake. I'am currently eating my humble pie. Not just a real big piece,but the whole pie. There are several lessons to be aware of. All codes are NOT universal, check and double check to see what may apply in the area one is doing work in F.J.N.


That's the beauty of this site...we've pretty much all enjoyed a slice of that pie at one time or another.:laughing:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I knew your heart was in the right place FJ. 

Just wondering if your ready for the groined vault thread yet :laughing:


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

His head will explode.


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## stuart45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Well played fjn, you're a true sportsman. Don't play cricket by any chance do you, we need a few more players for the village team as some of the older ones have down to the the great pitch upstairs.
Tscar, 
Have got to be honest, if that was the million $ question on Who Want's To Be a Millionaire I would have needed you as my phone a friend.
I would have gone for negative wind pressure as the primary reason for ties and positive as the secondary. Being a simple bricklayer 'mine is not to
reason why'. I only stick them in the wall when I remember them.
However the jobs I've worked with failed ties have usually had the walls bowing outwards. It could be that the corners help prevent the walls going in, and also the inside brick walls return at the frame reveals against the facework.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Other than tie failure, the most common cause of bowed walls is unrelieved expansion of the brick itself. This could cause inward bowing under the right circumstances, like a z-shaped section, but the normal vector is outward.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*joke of the day*

Just to lighten things up a bit. While area variations are discussed, here is a joke/quiz that never fails to get the new tender here. They are asked, what holds the masonry units together? WARNING THIS IS A JOKE! Let us see if it is used in your area.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Nope never heard this one


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*another chance*

Let us give more viewers a crack at it.


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

The mortar holds the masonry units together and keeps them apart. - That is a very old definition.

The wall ties (whatever type specified) maintain the spacing between the wythes/layers and are used to maintain lateral spacing and continuity.

With a veneer, you actually have two walls. One is the back-up, which is generally or could be loadbearing and the other is the veneer that only carries its own load since it is supported from below. The exception is the surface applied veneer that is adhered to the back-up and no ties are required.

What came first - The chicken or the egg?


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## Bigbricklayer (May 14, 2006)

You ask the hoddie "What holds the brick together?" the hoddie says "The mortar." you say "No that's what holds them apart"


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

concretemasonry said:


> The mortar holds the masonry units together and keeps them apart. - That is a very old definition.
> 
> The wall ties (whatever type specified) maintain the spacing between the wythes/layers and are used to maintain lateral spacing and continuity.
> 
> ...


Good points.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*you got it*

BIGBRICKLAYER You got it , catches the new ones every time.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

egg...no wait...


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