# Palladium .................



## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

I'm contemplating on reproducing the palladium 39F design,....




Something about this design has me intrigued ...

What I would love to know is what is going inside the chamber.......

The 39's have 3 - 9" woofers ,...1 - 4.5" Horn and 1 - .75 titanium head tweeter in each cabinet. If I decide to build these they are going to be slightly larger than the 39's. I would like to move these up to 10" drivers, keep the horn and tweeter. There are 3 "breather" fire-ports jutting out the side of the lower left/right end (respectfully) out of the side of each cabinet.




It's rather interesting (the audio world) .......,

I bought my klipsch 5.5 brand new back in 93 - $1489.43 (I have the brochure, sales receipt and literature filed away) . Replacement drivers are $79.00 a piece x (4) and the tweeter (plus the horn fixture- if damaged) $127.00 x 2 with the updated titanium heads for a complete set.

Point being........you can see where all the fat is in that price tag......


In the palladium design , I would like to chop the top from the straight planed 22.5 angle they have and instead arch it down into the spine of the cabinet to give it some additional character.

So ,
With all that being said,,

What the hell is going on inside the palladium ....:blink: 
Box cabinets are fairly easy to duplicate ,...some..not so...:whistling

Example

Kef Q900's don't fallow these assumption rules......there is a separation inside - some ABR (KEF's fancy word for passive radiators )..........my definition of PR's - lacking emotion,,,,,, 
I guess we can all put fancy words on items that all do the same thing,,,,,...:laughing:

They are a very nice speaker but,.....they always want to emphasize the dual mid /tweet driver..........I think that's there selling point. I do like the base system for them,,,"fingers",,,,nice speaker , nice sound,,,,but something is missing,,,,,,,,,,IMO....... 

Anyways,...the KEF Q900,...
They use a separation panel in the cabinet because of the ABR's. A design /functional sound engineering design. Klipsch seams to "walk away" from PR's , and I have to agree with their philosophy ,Passive radiators lack punch IMO, sound wise. Not that they haven't dabbled in them but they never give the same results in a live driver IMO.


I would love to find the prints on the 39's , but I doubt I will find those...:laughing:

And I don't know anyone that has a pair of these yet so I am just trying to wrap my head around what is going on inside the 39's . I am hopping its nothing more than empty space and some baffling..,,,,


Any thoughts, suggestions,,,(about the cabinet design) what you think is going on inside ,,,,,:blink:


Here are the specs,,,, http://www.klipsch.com/p-39f-floorstanding-speaker/details


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

All the best speakers have separation panels for bass, mid, and tweeters, not between every driver. Don't use passive radiators they make for slow weak bass.

Inside good speakers there is an mdf re-enforcement like this:


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

That's what I thought ....

Thanks Inner,


I saw that in the manual for the 39F ......the question is,,,,what is the diameter of the openings they show.. (Dividers).....how crucial is that....:blink:

Isn't their some formula for cubic inch space based on woofer driver size, baffles, sectional dividers,,,,,etc, etc,,,,

That's my problem,....

I work with wood, .....
I'm no sound engineer,,,,

Should I just base my specs off of their manual cut away preview of what's going on inside,,,,,,:blink:

I want to take the front top and stretch it down (per say) to the spine, arched down in the back.

So I am loosing some space, so maybe that is going to be a problem....maybe not....I don't know. :blink:

Just kills me,...
Medium density board construction.............$20,000......:blink:

,But maybe it's part of the sound design.......what do I know....:blink:.I manipulate wood fibers,,,,,


My thinking was to make the shell 3/4 hard wood staved construction, then shaped.......is hard wood bad for a speaker enclosure....:blink:


Thanks for your input...:thumbsup:


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## AbsoluteBasements (Oct 7, 2009)

Seriously sexy speakers!!
Hardwoods aren't a problem, but I think its easier to come up with beautiful veneers to laminate onto an MDF box.
Nice thing about MDF is all the mass and weight helps with resonance. 

I hang out at a couple speaker and Home Theater forums.
There are some seriously talented guys there who are really helpful.
I'm going to venture a guess based on what I've read there that box volume and a crossover design are pretty critical to performance.


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## AbsoluteBasements (Oct 7, 2009)

Shame you are so far away, I could do all the inner structure for you on the CNC.

I built 9 speakers and 2 subs for my HT based on designs I found online...


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

It's not the building - design issue I am stumbling on. It is the engineering of sound for speakers that I am lacking,. I remember 20 or so years ago I was at the library rifling through speaker cabinet designs books and the formulas behind them. 
I was thinking of building my own .....I got so frustrated that I went out and purchased the Klipsch 5.5's. :laughing: 

It's Nutz what some speakers go for....... 

http://most-expensive.com/speakers

This is where art meets sound IMO.....and that's what your paying for,,,,,,



$12,000,00 cables.......

And they say they can tell the difference,,,,,,,,,..:laughing:



I would love to stick them in a room, give them 3 examples (lines) and have them tell me which one is $12,000.00,,,,,,,

Morons.....


But,......if buying $12,000.00 cables makes you feel superior- nock your socks off,,,,,:whistling

JMPOV,

Thanks for the input....and the offer to help....:thumbsup:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> That's what I thought ....


There is a formula but it's a function of the type of driver, the crossover freequency and whether you are using a ported or sealed enclosure. Not exactly simple but there are some ball park calculators online but most are for subs only.

The Palladium isn't a brilliant speaker, horn loaded tweeters beam like crazy unless your throat is perfectly sized, and by nature the distribution pattern is too narrow for stereo. 

MDF and HDF makes a great speaker cabinet because it's dense, solid and dead sounding, just use t-nuts for the drivers. I'm sure hard wood would be great just more difficult to work with and more expensive.




PrestigeR&D said:


> It's not the building - design issue I am stumbling on. It is the engineering of sound for speakers that I am lacking,.
> JMPOV,
> 
> Thanks for the input....and the offer to help....:thumbsup:


Agreed, the super exotic speakers don't necessarily sound good. Best speakers I ever heard were B&W 802Ds, the JBL Everest was a close second but it wasn't in a good room so I didn't get a good means of comparison.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

It's amazing what some people do with their money......little Nutz IMO , ......

Grab some popcorn- your going to love this.......:whistling


:blink:

http://youtu.be/WZHjRe-hm_s


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> It's amazing what some people do with their money......little Nutz IMO , ......
> 
> Grab some popcorn- your going to love this.......:whistling
> 
> ...


Not really, he has a system you masturbate too with your deaf audiophile friends, not a system that is sonically pure.


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## AbsoluteBasements (Oct 7, 2009)

Had a fella who worked for a major player in the local Home Theater arena tell me that given his choice, he'd rather see mediocre speakers in a good acoustically treated space than mega buck speakers in a room with no treatment.
Having done a few with and without treatment, I think I would agree with his opinion.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

AbsoluteBasements said:


> Had a fella who worked for a major player in the local Home Theater arena tell me that given his choice, he'd rather see mediocre speakers in a good acoustically treated space than mega buck speakers in a room with no treatment.
> Having done a few with and without treatment, I think I would agree with his opinion.


Blanket statement, but room dimensions play such a large roll and often changing those is beyond the realm of reality.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

I'm sorry and I don't mean to sound harsh , but some of these people allow themselves to get sucked into "the more you spend $ the better the results".......now that may be true- up to a point, but I am not renovating my house around my audio equipment. .......

I realize that with anything audio there is a differnce in the quality but spending $200.000.00 for speakers and then another $10,000 for cables , and let's not forget the bibs for the connections and the risers to keep them off the floor and properly aligned is a little to much more for me...


It verges on insanity IMO , .....:blink:


The other aspect of all this is "where is it being set up"...:blink: that link I put up , the gentleman had the house built around the audio room. Reminds me of that Moen commercial where the lady shows the architect a faucet and says "can you build it around this"........

I realize everyone has their own way,....

I can see speakers becoming expensive do to them turning into artwork....because it's not the drivers that are ramping that up IMO .



This palladium design is something I like, definitely doable and I want to have some fun with it but keep them within the proper peramiters for functionality. I'll jump in the audio forum and see what the guys with calculators in their head come up with......


This arena is truly a little "to much to swallow " for me,,,,,,

$25,000 for an amp - and I need 2 of them to get stereo...:laughing:

Nutz......


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> I'm sorry and I don't mean to sound harsh , but some of these people allow themselves to get sucked into "the more you spend $ the better the results".......now that may be true- up to a point, but I am not renovating my house around my audio equipment. .......
> 
> I realize that with anything audio there is a differnce in the quality but spending $200.000.00 for speakers and then another $10,000 for cables , and let's not forget the bibs for the connections and the risers to keep them off the floor and properly aligned is a little to much more for me...
> 
> ...


Ultra high end audio is mostly bull****. At my old job I had a client who bought a pair of Grand Utopia speakers, 4 Krell monos and 18K of goretz silver speaker wire.

Still didn't sound as good as the 802s with a Classe stereo amp but had a lot more punch.

In terms of audio the newer speakers blow away the older technology.

If you want good sound look at who has the best research facilities. JBL was the first company to use laser interferometry to test the distortion of their drivers and they are one of the only companies that has an anechoic chamber large enough to test low freequencies. 

If I were to build a speaker I'd choose something that I know sounds great and wouldn't be that hard to copy the design of. Maybe the B&W 700 Series would be a good choice. Out of the box it was one of the best imaging speakers I'd heard.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

I dabbled in this in high school, so like everything I learned then, I've forgotten almost all of it. 

My greatest achievement was far away from what you are attempting. My goal was to make something much better in every way than the terrible, terrible Bose (better perceived sound through marketing) sub that people shell out way too much money for, and I succeeded. Smaller, cheaper, louder, lower, much tighter, and better looking, though heavier. 

A few generalizations I remember that may or may not be accurate: for the mids and highs, the primary purpose of the enclosure is to block as close to 100% of the sound coming from the rear of the drivers as possible.

For the base, it's basically the same: ridgid, deadened, flex-free boxes are important. A port or pr can extend and flatten the low end frequency response, and there are formulas for tuning these based on specs that will be published about the drivers. The holes in the bracing should be generally designed to not restrict the flow of air inside the box so they don't create whistling and so they don't contribute to tuning (ie restricting or augmenting the movement of the driver by creating a resinent frequency)

You can find the math online. There are also plenty of books on the subject.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

I don't have the brain for that.......I am just being blatantly honest with you, nor the patience ....that crap would put me in the nut house, for sure,,,,,guaranteed. ...........


I often find myself questioning this extremely high priced audio equipment.

I remember going into the "Speaker Shop" ( http://www.speakershop.com ) and Eddy showing me a tube amp that was around $7000.00. So he fires up this amp - they were hooked up up to the Klipsh KSP-400 in the burgundy tone finish - http://www.klipsch.com/ksp-400-floorstanding-speaker/details $$3900 list price.

Then I ask him if he could hook up this adcom receiver/amp I was interested in up to them....


He says,...oh no..:no:....we have these systems all set up proprietary " to what we feel" is best suited considering the audio equipment.........

Ok.....I think I know what's going on here.....



When I purchased my new receiver recently...the Onkyo TX-NR709...I got the same response ...."We can't switch the system based on proprietary ,...bla,bla,bla..............

Sounded good on some small book shelf (2' high, 5" woofer, tweeter)


I gambled......


I have to say this much (IMO) - for a receiver that was $799.00 and I paid $399.00 "demo" . I am happy with the sound- very clean, crisp and am impressed. I don't Want to shove 1200 watts through my house.......... don't get me wrong- I like to jack it up - but within reason.......maybe I'm getting old..

It just sounds so much better, even at 80% of the way to full throttle . I have 110 watts (per channel) to throw out to 10 more speakers.........unfortunately (for the unit) I don't want to go that direction. I would just like to add 1 more set (4 speakers in total). 

This is why this topic came up.......


I like curves (anti- Darwin Martin ),the irony....:whistling....:laughing:

Hardwood,.....expensive.......:blink:

I am confident for $3000.00 (materials) I can do this. This might be one of those "F/ck it" momenta and I will spec what information I have and just go with it.......

I can take the ratings from the speakers, might even be able to dig a little and find out what the crossover is ......"Bob Crites".....I just got my titanium tweeted heads from him for my 5.5's. He builds crossovers for almost every klipsch speaker that's out there. If anyone would know it's - going to be him. 

This hobbie , (obsession to some...:whistling) is a little nutty if you ask me,....


Cable holding stands, bibs,......$12,000.00.....:blink:



Thank god it's Friday........I need a drink....:whistling


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Why Klipsch? Sure they are really efficient...but not my style.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Stop pissing on my parade Inner.......Buzz Kill.....:laughing:..just kidding..........my last joke episode backfired so I am just making sure where all on the same page....

The bass that comes out of those 5.5's is incredible. ....that's what I liked,,,,you can feel it.......very clean....98d / 1 watt.....whatever that means.....:laughing:

It's not just drivers......IMO,....


This is where that CI calculation comes in.......cabinet design. I am not saying that drivers and crossovers don't have anything to do with it. IMO , yes....up to a point,,,,,


6- 10" woofers, 2 horn, and 2 tweeter....+ the crossover- matched, I think 12-$1,500.00 will cover that end., with room to spare,,,,,,


It's that dam CI and driver situation,,,,,,,,, I think space comes first- then drivers & crossover,,,,,,,but what do I know-and that's the truth....:laughing:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Do you need to source the drivers still?


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Inner,
Any help would be appreciated.....:thumbsup:


Thank you,...:thumbsup:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> Inner,
> Any help would be appreciated.....:thumbsup:
> 
> Thank you,...:thumbsup:


I know the Canadian rep, I'll send him an email, but sadly Klipsch parts are painfully expensive from the experience I've had.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Well- if it's not out of my ballpark - then yes....

$1500.00 that's it,.....anything beyond that and we start getting into the nutty section............:whistling




I appreciate your help,:thumbsup:


Thank you!:thumbsup:


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

Say you were going after that first enclosure.. How would you build it? 

Something like mdf shaped with a veneer? 

Cool look...Just curious..


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

My initial thought was staved......


I can't see MDF being a more ridged material than a hardwood....


Take a hammer to MDF, then go after the 3/4 HW.......I think , I "believe" it is a lot more rigid than MDF. ..less reflective......IMO.......

Wouldn't a box joint look nice,,,,,,,,


That's the art about this. ....I enjoy that,,, challenging your skills is a wonderful experience,,,,,,:thumbsup:


Skinning it with a veneer could happen.........that would be so much easier.......

Staving the top is going to be a nightmare....at least what I have drafted.....lots of varying angles I have to draft out,.......then boxing the joinery ,........it's pretty sick....... But definitely doable ! Just have to have some patience with yourself...........:laughing:


I am more concerned with making sure the Cu in for the cavity and with the drivers and crossover are going to function appropriately, efficiently....

That's where the geek squad and I separate.....:whistling

If I can come up with a draft , paper - with dimensions,...

Could would one of brilliant individuals tell me what cubic space I have inside......:blink:


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Here's an interesting pair......





You know the sad part of all this high tech/extremely insane pricey equipment ....you have to sit in a certain area ...


Just bizarre ...:blink:



JMPOV...

I haven't had time to start on my palladium upsized cabinets ....just to dam busy,,,,I started drawing them out .....next is a pattern (scaled down) just to see how and what I am going to have to do......


I will enjoy this....I love curved objects.......


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

I thought these were well made , not my style but he did a great job on them. He sold them to some audiophile in California for some serious money. ,,...how much-:blink: he wouldn't say.


Eric,
A gentleman on my OWWM forum made these dodecahedron drivers and the bass units. 21" woofer in the cab....the drivers are Cogent True to life drivers. 


Here are the drivers for the horns: 

Here is the 21" woofer :

Information on the woofer: http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-21SW152-1.htm


Some pictures of them being made: 













And a little video at the buyers house after a 2 day installation....

http://youtu.be/NUeomOa5Kpw



He is making another pair- only this pair is made from different wood for the body and some wood veneering for the skin.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Brian I completely forgot about your speaker components, I'll be in touch tomorrow.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Don't worry about it inner,...:thumbsup:


I can get drivers.......it may be a little while before I get to building the palladium designed cabs.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> Don't worry about it inner,...:thumbsup:
> 
> I can get drivers.......it may be a little while before I get to building the palladium designed cabs.


Where did you find em?


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Just using Eric's source....


http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm


Pricey......


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

I am going to start with my patterning- cardboard......


I was reading about tuning the bass.....:blink: I'm a little concerned about the inside- cavity space.....what I need to do........


I would like to fallow what Klipsch did with theirs , maybe I can scale the picture and then I would know what baffle has to go where......


The formulas for this stuff is pretty overwhelming for me....


Can any of you speaker afficianodo's help me.....:blink:



Thank you,:thumbsup:


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

I was looking at the inside of these cabinets and they look as if there is nothing to the inside of the cabinet....:blink: all I have to do is scale it up ....possibly.....:blink:

There was a pair of the 39F that sold earlier in the year......what a price drop....bought then new for over $20,000.00 and sold them for $8,000.00- not a good return on investment ...

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/147540-fs-klipsch-palladium-p-39f/



I'll keep chugging along with this.....


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Not to be a kill joy, but I studied acoustics under one of the authors of this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-System-...4673&sr=1-1&keywords=sound+system+engineering

IMO, making a speaker system that sounds good is really really tough.

If you want to see something a builder came up with after getting out of construction, check this out:

http://www.voltiaudio.com/vittora.shtml


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

hdavis said:


> Not to be a kill joy, but I studied acoustics under one of the authors of this book:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Sound-System-...4673&sr=1-1&keywords=sound+system+engineering
> 
> ...


I'm sure they sound good, but I'd eat my hat if some ******* wood worker can produce a better sounding speaker than a company with millions of dollars of test equipment using laser interferometry


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Doubt......


I love it............:whistling.....



The problem isn't building, although it's not square,......that is definitely doable,...

Has to do with math......sound engineering.....



I am Working on it,......

Setting pipe down,


Taking A Drink from my libation cup,....

Typing in some needed questions answered.....



:whistling......


But honestly , it is starting To sink in....believe it or not....:blink:



I love the design....although...it is resembling an "Aliens" head......


Kiss my ass inner......:laughing:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

There's always the rough and ready approach. Make the enclosure as big as you want it, copy the speaker location, then put it together. You can tweak it a little after you test it by putting in fiberglass. Beyond that, you're talking about matching up a speaker, enclosure, and cross over network. It isn't a question of some formulas, the whole thing's frequency response can be modeled well based on component measurements. It's never perfect, so the next level is psychoacoustic stuff - getting it to sound better than it is.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Just get the dimensions of the originals and get it as close as possible.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Write,!

Now what are they........:blink:...:laughing:


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> Write,!
> 
> Now what are they........:blink:...:laughing:


http://www.klipsch.com/p-39f-floorstanding-speaker/details


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> Just get the dimensions of the originals and get it as close as possible.


And put the exact same speaker in it.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Not happening Davis........:no:

They don't make 12" drivers......


Even if they did I wouldn't by it...it's not that different than most drivers....JMPOV on that....marketing.....lots of adjectives....hype........


Looking at JBL....and a few other reputable manufacturers....


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