# I need a good stone foundation ratio.



## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

I'm not surprised that everybody has a somewhat different recipe, but I _am_ surprised by how _different_ some of these are.......honestly, if we could see all these next to each other, it's almost funny. I'm more of a NHL 3.5 to about 2 1/2 sharp sand for restoration work. One thing though; I have only _heard_ of someone using a straight portland/sand mix.......what most masons call 'grout'..........I _am_ curious as to what mix bytor uses........


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## bytor (Jan 23, 2010)

We generally use something along the lines of a 1:1:6 portland/lime/sand. (resulting in a type 'n' mix)
But, that does vary... on our current granite random/rubbly ashlar chimney we are using 1:2.5 type 's' masonry cement/sand mix to lay up the stone and will most likely point with the 1:1:6.

Of course we're not working on an early 1800's house as the OP is... wouldn't that call for a straight lime mortar to match existing? I suppose if I were doing below grade stonework from scratch I would be more comfortable with a type 's' (1:2:9 mix).


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I am curious about the type of stone the foundation is made of. If it was me that would dictate the type of mortar to use. One thing for sure, I never use straight Portland either. I don't consider that to be mortar but cement and like you mentioned Gabe, it always cracks. It is too strong to be used alone with sand.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Personally I hesitate from using a straight lime mix below grade even if that was what was there previous (if rebuilding not repointing). Roots will eat their way through a pure lime mix very easily. If rebuilding below grade I'd want something at least approaching a type N unless it's been shown that it is too hard for that particular stone. If it were I'd be questioning whether it was an appropriate stone for below grade use.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

The stone is less than desireable to say the least.

Not to say it isn't a strong stone, just ugly as sin. Most of our fieldstone around here is either bluestone or shale, the shale typically isn't used in walls though. I wish we had granite laying around, but it's non existent from what I have seen.

They did a rubble wall (poorly in my opinion) to grade, then topped it with big cut stones above grade to make sharp corners and straight lines.

The original had almost no bonding stones, it was basically and 18" cavity wall filled up with crap as it went up. I extended it in 2".

If I can ever get moving again on it I will post some progress pictures, I have to try to source some cut stone for the top that has been weathered, might have to get new stuff and sandblast it.

It is supposed to snow 3" here tonight, and be below freezing for the next few days. March came in like a lamb this year, and is going out like a lion trying to rape me.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

sounds like typical residential stone foundations here.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

sitdwnandhngon said:


> It is supposed to snow 3" here tonight, and be below freezing for the next few days. March came in like a lamb this year, and is going out like a lion trying to rape me.


Welcome to my world...70s in here midst of month...lamb turned into wolf in sheepskin...raining non stop or drizzling.

Have to put 8 thin blocks into retaining wall for a customer(5 hours worth of work) for 600$ i have rescheduled it 7 times already.
Not to mention halt on all other work.

Oh well. :sad::sad::sad::sad::sad:


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> If the stone is a granite or hard stone (not limestone or sandstone) a type S would be fine 1:2:9, limeortland:sand. or use bagged type S.


I did a mix similar to that but a touch more lime because the bulk of the foundation was a limestone and some serpentine (I think it was anyway ).


For the types of stone that Sit has to work with, I think I would lean towards a softer mix.

Sit, I am familiar with that stone. I have a good friend that moved to Oxford,NY directly east of you and rt 81. He has the same two types of stone in his farmhouse and barn foundations. He also has miles of stonewalls with it too. All the foundations were older than 50 years and had a high lime content....they were in great shape the last time I was there. They weren't pretty either.:laughing:


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JD3lta said:


> That's why you hire somebody to temp it, and usually have two separate batches going of dry+wet


FYI, constant re-tempering will weaken the mix. I never re-temp mud that is older than 1 1/2 and usually only mix what I can use in about 2 hrs.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> FYI, constant re-tempering will weaken the mix.


lol not to mention carpal tunnel if you got someone retemperring it 8 hours a day.:laughing:...dunno waste of monies in my opinion.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JD3lta said:


> If you like to use mortar build with culture stone.


:laughing: If this statement had the words "wall ties" I would have a new signature line.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> :laughing: If this statement had the words wall ties I would have a new signature line.


You laughing I ve seen guys use aluminium wall ties on lick n stick...lol wish I took a pic.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

TheItalian204 said:


> lol not to mention carpal tunnel if you got someone retemperring it 8 hours a day.:laughing:...dunno waste of monies in my opinion.


Imagine the intellect of the person that is hired to stand there and do that all day too.:whistling


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> Imagine the intellect of the person that is hired to stand there and do that all day too.:whistling


Lol think it was stacker who mentioned guy who would through shovel of sand into mix every time car passed...probably that guy's relative :laughing:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

For stones with a joint I use a mix like I mentioned, but if it is dry I will use straight porty with the back up rocks.


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## JD3lta (Nov 22, 2009)

If not able to burn up a batch of mud then doing something wrong, water draws to top so need to temp in wheelbarrow, and dry mix needs to stay temped so doesn't flash. In more dry weather soak bags and lay on top of mud from sun. Yes you can have guy make mud, and tend it.. As well as tend everything on the jobsite, including cuts or what not so I don't see the waste. As for not being able to use portland cement such as leahigh ironclad I/II as a binder with only sand and water is 100% inaccurate. To be honest I have never seen 1 person ever use lime as an additive. Mainly, acrylic, antifreeze and color.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Then you need to see more masonry. That's ridiculous

You can also use a blowtorch to find gas leaks, but i don't recommend it


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## JD3lta (Nov 22, 2009)

I can see using a blowtorch to edge bluestone after chiseling it, I don't understand your analogy.. I learned my methods from a MA level 1 licensed construction supervisor.. What I have for mixes from strongest to weakest goes in this order for what it's worth:

Load-bearing mortars have portland. non-bearing mortars have cement and lime as binder. Good load bearing 1 port and 1-2 1/2 part sand. 

non load bearing mortars can consist of from strongest to weakest.

one:1 portland, 10-15% lime, 3part sand
twoortland or white cement, 1/4 part lime, 4part sand
three:cement, 1/2part lime, 4prt sand
four:cement, 2part lime, 6-7 prt sand
five:lime 1 part,5-6 part sand


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JD3lta said:


> If not able to burn up a batch of mud then doing something wrong, water draws to top so need to temp in wheelbarrow, and dry mix needs to stay temped so doesn't flash. In more dry weather soak bags and lay on top of mud from sun. Yes you can have guy make mud, and tend it.. As well as tend everything on the jobsite, including cuts or what not so I don't see the waste. As for not being able to use portland cement such as leahigh ironclad I/II as a binder with only sand and water is 100% inaccurate. To be honest I have never seen 1 person ever use lime as an additive. Mainly, acrylic, antifreeze and color.


I think JBM was right...this could go on and on.

And it's a pretty good bet that most of the masons on here understand tempering mortar 101. My point was simple...constant re-temping by adding water weakens the mix. And that's true whether you use it up fast or not. If that's not what you meant or do then my bad.

Personally, I don't want to try and convince you that your opinion on using straight portland for stonework is incorrect. Do some research and you'll see for yourself.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

I would NEVER add anti-freeze to any mix...terrible idea...weakens mortar like ten times. No offence J3,but if you talking about car anti-freeze like hacks do around here,I go no comments. that **** is straight nasty and does not cure properly.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

TheItalian204 said:


> I would NEVER add anti-freeze to any mix...terrible idea...weakens mortar like ten times. No offence J3,but if you talking about car anti-freeze like hacks do around here,I go no comments. that **** is straight nasty and does not cure properly.


I think he means antihydro


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Don't have that product around here. Just add hastopur to everything. Well pretty much everything.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Sometimes I will throw a splash of my ice coffee or Gatorade in my pan if I dont have any tempin water....just sayin


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

TheItalian204 said:


> I would NEVER add anti-freeze to any mix...terrible idea...weakens mortar like ten times. No offence J3,but if you talking about car anti-freeze like hacks do around here,I go no comments. that **** is straight nasty and does not cure properly.





JBM said:


> Sometimes I will throw a splash of my ice coffee or Gatorade in my pan if I dont have any tempin water....just sayin


No joke was laying block once and had two blocks left...site was about 30 miles from closest town and they had water main accident.

Had to piss in the mud,or leave and come next day for two more blocks...Didnt think i could generate enough spit.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Bricklayer I worked for told me that Gingerale was a good cold weather additive. Hmm makes sense I guess, something in the carbonation? "Or Soda water?" I say. "NO!!!! Has to be Gingerale!!!! 

Weird

And JD3, my comment about the blowtorch. There are things that you CAN do, like getting totally drunk and going for a drive. Looking down the barrel of a loaded gun....using a straight portland mix. Maybe the last one isn't so bad but it sure isn't great


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

a lot of folks around here add dishsoap with straight porty mix...appearantly it makes it fluffier...couldnt tell difference,just smelled like peaches and apples and what not.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

TheItalian204 said:


> a lot of folks around here add dishsoap with straight porty mix...appearantly it makes it fluffier...couldnt tell difference,just smelled like peaches and apples and what not.


Soap is essentially what they add to concrete when the truck shows up and needs more "slump" (I worked for a winter tying steel and building forms, worst winter EVER)


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## JD3lta (Nov 22, 2009)

Dom mas we can go back and forth all day- you can use portland with out a teaspoon of lime.. maybe not in canada but come down here I'll show you around


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JBM said:


> Sometimes I will throw a splash of my ice coffee or Gatorade in my pan if I dont have any tempin water....just sayin


Ahh..the coffee temp. Adds a nice green tint.:thumbsup:

If you start doing it with a starbucks ice coffee then you hit the big time!!


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

TheItalian204 said:


> a lot of folks around here add dishsoap with straight porty mix...appearantly it makes it fluffier...couldnt tell difference,just smelled like peaches and apples and what not.


Used it in Florida from time to time. The mud gets fluffy like when you put C-21 in the mixer...which I dont think your supposed to do either. 

It would blow you guy's minds what it means when someone yells for some "dry shake" 

So if a wall stands after that, then a stone wall will stand with portland and no mortar in it.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Of course the wall will stand. That's not really the issue. And with a very hard stone like granite it wouldn't be much of a problem for a while. the issue is with the workability of the mix and the incredible unnecessary strength it would achieve without having any ability to flex. Flexing is one of the most important attributes in a masonry wall. Not to mention the incredibly difficult task of re-pointing later in the life of the wall. 

I was labouring and had the job of cutting out joints in a cemetery wall built of granite and it turned out an incredibly hard portland type mortar. There were cracks everywhere. The chipper bounced off almost all the joints except the ones that just came out as a unit, stone included. Got out the grinder, the blade was turning red from heat and it was taking forever. Got the chipper back out and it got most of the joint but left a lot on as well. what should have been 4 hrs of chipping turned into 2 days. the wall had been built in the 70's, this was '99.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> the issue is with the workability of the mix and the incredible unnecessary strength it would achieve without having any ability to flex. Flexing is one of the most important attributes in a masonry wall. Not to mention the incredibly difficult task of re-pointing later in the life of the wall.


Not to mention that a straight portland mix has extremely poor breathablity and traps a lot of moisture that would otherwise wick through a mortar mix.

As it relates to the original question..... the facts are that a straight portland mix is rigid and less moisture permeable then one containing lime and will undoubtedly lead to issues in the future.

I can also attest to the damage that a mix like that does to masonry. The chimneys that I restored in MA were re-pointed using portland cement over the original lime mortar. Evey single joint was cracked, there was trapped moisture and it lead to internal issues. The stone on the chimney overall was a hard basalt but dotted here and there was limestone. Most were in an advanced stage of deterioration..a couple just disintegrated and had to be replaced.

Without a doubt portland has a it's place but the way I understand masonry, you wont catch me using it straight with sand for setting stone. Now, if we are talking pressed concrete work, that's another story!


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

I didn't mean to open a pandora's box here.

I adjusted my mix a little bit today and was pleased with pan life, and workability.

I brought my drum mixer with me instead of hand mixing today, and it made working up a drier batch much easier.

Now hopefully the temps stay up after tomorrow and I can actually get moving on this thing.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Ah but you'll lose the abs. NOTHING keeps the old gut in check like mixing a dry batch by hand


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Ah but you'll lose the abs. NOTHING keeps the old gut in check like mixing a dry batch by hand


It's fine with me after hoisting those stones by myself all day.

Plus, right around the third or fourth hand batch I always get impatient and end up with streaks in it :whistling


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

sitdwnandhngon said:


> I didn't mean to open a pandora's box here.


Are you new around here?:laughing:


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

stonecutter said:


> Are you new around here?:laughing:


mortar threads are kind of like oil threads on any motorcycle or car forum...


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## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

agreed we are going on 4 pages of mixes and why and hows but it still comes down to the majority will not use grout to build a stone wall. some of us use mortar some use lime we all use several buckets and shovels of each. we pretty much all agree straight portland is bad for building but fine for back filling. I will use it when I am doing slip form though.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

lukachuki said:


> mortar threads are kind of like oil threads on any motorcycle or car forum...


I used to hang out at bobistheoilguy, where they do oil analysis, you should have seen some of the threads haha, people getting banned, death threats :thumbup:


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

JBM said:


> I used to hang out at bobistheoilguy, where they do oil analysis, you should have seen some of the threads haha, people getting banned, death threats :thumbup:


Same way in the Jeep forums too. I stopped participating because you can tell the people that couldn't carry on a conversation in real life. Everyone is up for an argument when there's no chance of getting punched in the nose.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

I got some fresh pictures today for anyone interested.

I have had the house blocked up for a few weeks now, the outside of the wall is complete, I leveled off about a foot down and just built up to the main beams, the rest of the inside is going to simply be filler to make the wall complete.

I had 3 strapping lads come with me to work today and we dug out the floor and prepped it for concrete this week, 7 hours of digging and about a million 5 gallon buckets of dirt and rocks later we got something I can actually work with down there. :laughing:

Here is how it sits right now, the next time I post pictures there will be a floor, the wall will be finished and hopefully pointed up.

Keep in mind that I have been just sort of fitting this job in every few weeks, I don't sandbag that bad on all my projects :whistling


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

looking good


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

That will look original when you're done...great job!


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

put up a sign charge 10 bucks to look at stone wall master piece, next time you need a good pokey mix call the guy who last did it, hey it lasted a couple of hundred years!


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

sunkist said:


> put up a sign charge 10 bucks to look at stone wall master piece, next time you need a good pokey mix call the guy who last did it, hey it lasted a couple of hundred years!


I kept careful track of how much material and time it has been taking me, so if I ever get another one I know how much to upcharge.

This guy has given me so much work it isn't even funny, and he still has a list that will take me a year to finish up. So I just charge him hourly and don't mark up material.

Should I ever come across one of these again though I would really like to pad the old retirement fund.:laughing:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Its funny how when you can deliver a load of whatever next to where your working how much quicker the project goes. Walking stuff around the house gets materials X aggrivation X time X aggrivation X exhaustion X heat factor X aggrivation X time + I dont really want to do it = price.


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## Gordon Forsyth (May 18, 2015)

i love reading these old threads
http://www.accentmasonryllc.co/#!fort-myers-stone-work/cfvg


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I'd almost forgotten about that JD3lta guy


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

What happened to the Bruno guy?


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Bruno the dog? I was wondering the same thing


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

dom-mas said:


> Bruno the dog? I was wondering the same thing


You guys really have to ask? He's kicking butt, Euro-style, while you worthless North American bums sit around playing with yourselves. Sheesh.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Bruno is a good dude, San Marino is a beautiful place. I'm sure he's wandering about on his cycle living the good life. At least that's what he told me awhile back when I PM'd him.

How about the Italian who was deported,...liked that guy as well!


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

2low4nh said:


> so you do all of your stone work with straight sand and portland? do you use mortar sand or crete sand? The workability of that mud must suck. nevermind how messy it would be.


I just read this thread and cant understand anyone whom would think portland and sand [cement mortar] is crap. It must be used with coarse conc sand though, and yes it's not plastic but it isnt expected to be nor needed with stone walls. A short wide philly trowel used,.. turning the mud over twice with the trowel to compact it on the trowel stops any dropage.
Weve done oodles of walls ie 15 bags a day # 32 to 50 shovels and better of sand to a bag depending on the coarseness of the sand. 
No cracking to be had, and if water leaks in its due to voids via a rough highly irregular back side of the wall and or grading issues i.e. ponding behind it.

I stop by walls the old man did 70 years ago that are neither leaning / or in need of pointing. The tempering mentioned is more a turning over....done with a shovel which we use a lot to lay the mud on the back portion as portland and sand will separate esp if wheeled or thrown down into the pans off the bank....however keep in mind, this isnt mason sand which many at the yards pick up and use with just portland...that stuff is a ***** to mix and is dead and sucks! 
Stone veneer mud I agree calls for plasticity via the lime.

In all my 63 years I've never seen one stone mason add lime to stone wall mud.....it was told to me when starting out that it's weak. If the cracking mentioned here is along the stone lines of the joints, it's due to non compression as the cement dries....ie they must be packed a few times before dry esp with hard stone.

Basement walls; the old man did tell me he used to do basements with merely a shovel or two of portland the rest lime putty with 60 very coarse sand....he said 2 bags of portland was all it took for the complete average stone basement. However there's a world of difference in the strength needed for a retaining wall in comparison to a a foundation wall which has a load and is heated on one side.

Oh and I had to laugh...the wet bags is an oldie that works great...
Bless those old timers! Happy Father's Day!


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