# Sub gives HO card..



## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Stephen H said:


> I got to dis-agree with you,C2-------------
> 
> there is a loooooooooong list of obvious things I should not have to tell an employee or a sub:
> don't root through the homeowners daughters panty drawers,
> Stephen


Stephen:

I'm not so sure about that one. There could be a flying junction box in there or something. A thorough electrician would make sure.

Joe


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Come on dude :whistling


I've been down this road before, and was talked down at every post. 

GCs own the job, the customer and the subs. They do his bidding. All are subservient to him. The GC is to dictate to the sub how he is to run his business, and dictate to the customer how they are to run their private lives.


----------



## C2projects (Jan 9, 2013)

Stephen H said:


> I got to dis-agree with you,C2-------------
> 
> there is a loooooooooong list of obvious things I should not have to tell an employee or a sub:
> don't bang the homeowners wife,or the homeowner, don't root through the homeowners daughters panty drawers, don't pee in the bushes, don't set the garage on fire, don't park your truck on the lawn........and so on and so forth.........
> ...


Agree to disagree then I guess. The way I view it is, that you cannot assume that some is automatically going to have the same out look/morals as yourself. You need to set the record straight before there things get all screwy. Like the saying goes when you assume things you make an ass out of you and me. And personally I don't like making an ass out of myself... Even though I do end up doing it on a regular basis.


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Jaws said:


> There are more than a few like that....:thumbsup:


Really? My subs are solid gold; most of whom know far more about their specialties and about contracting than I do, but if we're counting generals who don't own "any other part of the process", then you can count me out. If there's anything I own, the process is it.


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

C2projects said:


> ... personally I don't like making an ass out of myself... Even though I do end up doing it on a regular basis.


I've grown to respect it as a regular part of my life:jester:


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

480sparky said:


> GCs own the job, the customer and the subs. They do his bidding. All are subservient to him.


I have a dream :jester:....


----------



## Al Taper (Jul 10, 2007)

I am the GC on the project. I have worked for other GCs before and have did a bunch of prebid walk thru to meet the HO and get a job scope. I would never hand the HO my card. 
I worked with this contractor before on a project. But never had him work for me yet. We worked for the same GC a year ago. 
Thanks for the great replys. Can see both side.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

The sub probably had the right intentions but this was in the WRONG context of the situation. 

A HO should know who is working in their house, employee, sub-contractor or otherwise. But it's the GC's job to say, "We'll be doing the framing, Crazy Ed's Electric will wire it up, Silly Sam's Plumbing will relocate that drain, etc. " and provide the HO with license numbers, and any other necessary credentials. 

So on one hand, it was OK to hand out the card for identification purposes, but VERY VERY BAD because now it has the potential to create some degree of confusion. 

While the electrician's phone number and company name isn't a secret, handing the HO one of his card is a non-verbal way of saying "Call me if you can't get a hold of the GC." and before you know it, the electrician and the HO are communicating, making decisions, and running the job without your knowledge. 

You'll come back on the site the next day and the HO will tell you, "I spoke with the electrician last night and we decided that it would be better to put the microwave on this wall instead. I guess you're going to have to re-order those cabinets. The electrician said, it wouldn't be a problem and it's something that you can easily change. Oh, by the way, he needs you to give him some self tapping screws.. you got all of that? I'll check with the electrician to see if he needs anything else."

And then by the day's end, you will be .


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Really? My subs are solid gold; most of whom know far more about their specialties and about contracting than I do, but if we're counting generals who don't own "any other part of the process", then you can count me out. If there's anything I own, the process is it.


:blink: I am saying that there are plenty of GCs who arent plantation owners:whistling


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

tedanderson said:


> The sub probably had the right intentions but this was in the WRONG context of the situation.
> 
> A HO should know who is working in their house, employee, sub-contractor or otherwise. But it's the GC's job to say, "We'll be doing the framing, Crazy Ed's Electric will wire it up, Silly Sam's Plumbing will relocate that drain, etc. " and provide the HO with license numbers, and any other necessary credentials.
> 
> ...


Yeah.. God forbid an electrician to actually think. None of 'em are capable of saying, "Well, yes, I can put the microwave circuit there.... but you'll need to run that through the builder first. I'm sure it will affect the cabinet layout." 

We just ain't that smart. Thank God we have CGs who have brains.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I don't have an issue with it. I think it shows the contractor having insecurity issues that someone may make money and they wont get a cut of it. The majority of subs have sign written vans so if the home owner really wants to go through them direct then that's their choice and they wont need a business card. You cant stop them lets be honest. You may as well take the yellow pages from the house and cut the phone lines while your there so they have to use the electrician through you. 

Not that any of my customers would try and go around me as i organize the whole job to make sure subs are there on the days they need to be and doing what they are meant to be. But if they really wanted to use their own sparky then i'm fine with that.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Damn, 480. You must have some doosies of some stories with GCs.....


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Damn, 480. You must have some doosies of some stories with GCs.....



Yep.... the ones here on CT. :laughing:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Yep.... the ones here on CT. :laughing:


Are you saying there are NO good GCs on here?


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Are you saying there are NO good GCs on here?



Never said that. I'm just saying there's a few who maintain a God Complex.


----------



## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

480sparky said:


> Never said that. I'm just saying there's a few who maintain a God Complex.


And it seems that those are the ones who end up in these dilemmas.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Yeah.. God forbid an electrician to actually think. None of 'em are capable of saying, "Well, yes, I can put the microwave circuit there.... but you'll need to run that through the builder first.


We both know that this will be the conversation with the HO, but unfortunately when you say "run this through the builder first", they hear you say, "The electrician said that this is what we are doing."


----------



## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

Are we really getting back into this argument again?


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

All any one of us can really do is say, "This is how I do business...." and make our choices about which contractors we'll work with. There's clearly not a one-size-fits-all approach to this question.

I'm feeling this issue right now because a counter sub called a customer of mine a while back to schedule a template measurement. That was his first mistake - he needed to call me, so that we could remove the existing tops, disconnect some plumbing, etc. Then he sold the customer a solid stone backsplash, with a specific price, when the customer had already signed a contract for a tile backsplash. When it became clear to the customer that I had no  idea what he was talking about, I'm the one who got the black eye. It was a sub I'd never worked with before, and he thought he had special rights because someone else had recommended him. It definitely messed up my relationship with the customer and with the guy who was going to do the tile work.


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Mud Master said:


> Are we really getting back into this argument again?


We could go argue about pressure-treated lumber with the deck guys, I suppose.:whistling


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Prospective electrical sub contractor appying with JAWS Construction, Inc -

You will be here at 7:14 am sharp, or Ill dock you....:thumbsup:

You will address me as Masah or Boss.....:whistling:thumbup:

You WILL clean up after yourself, including your wire snips.....:whistling

You will give me a 10% kick back on top of my mark up $$$:thumbup:

You will make me look smart when I say something dumb regarding electric in front of others, or when we are alone :laughing:

:no::laughing::no:


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Holy crap! What were you thinking?

I would sneak back in a steal his card back, maybe make your sparky help.


----------



## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> You will make me look smart when I say something dumb regarding electric in front of others, or when we are alone


Regardless of what the GC says, or how dumb it sounds, I always respond by saying, "Yep. It's a special molecular infusion process that makes it work."


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

tedanderson said:


> Regardless of what the GC says, or how dumb it sounds, I always respond by saying, "Yep. It's a special molecular infusion process that makes it work."


:laughing::laughing:

I need a new electrican :whistling:laughing:


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

tedanderson said:


> Regardless of what the GC says, or how dumb it sounds, I always respond by saying, "Yep. It's a special molecular infusion process that makes it work."


In fact, my main electrical sub's encrypted version of "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard," is to say, "Well, we'll certainly look at all the possibilities."


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

C2projects said:


> In my opinion if there wasn't a conversation then I don't believe there any area to fire the guy. Granted it is almost an unspoken rule but in my experience common sense does not exsist these days.
> 
> If he's someone you've used in the past and are happy with his work then I would recommend having a conversation saying going forward you would appreciate that he wouldn't hand out his card to the HO.
> 
> I was subed to do a deck once for a friend of mine and I had a guy come to me and ask for a quote so I went over to take a look at the job and then called my friend and asked him how he wanted to approach the situation because if I were to land the job the only reason would be because I was subed to do the job.


Well, How did your friend handle it? Did he let you do the job?


----------



## C2projects (Jan 9, 2013)

Ya the deal we made is that I would give him a percentage of the profit. If I remember it was 10%.


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

...


----------



## C2projects (Jan 9, 2013)

I just added it into the price. I didn't end up getting it I don't think the guy was very serious.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

CarpenterSFO said:


> In fact, my main electrical sub's encrypted version of "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard," is to say, "Well, we'll certainly look at all the possibilities."


That one should go on the jobsite oneliners thread


----------



## bob hutson (Mar 16, 2013)

every thing goes through me , not a god complex , Im running the show had a mason with the same problem inches off, told the ho the footer was off took no time to fix,,,if you want to work with me ok if not ok to just not on my job. If you git extra work Im fine with that , no second guessing the main man ..me..lol
I need to put a icon on my post.lol


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

bob hutson said:


> every thing goes through me , not a god complex , Im running the show had a mason with the same problem inches off, told the ho the footer was off took no time to fix,,,if you want to work with me ok if not ok to just not on my job. If you git extra work Im fine with that , no second guessing the main man ..me..lol
> I need to put a icon on my post.lol


So what if the HO don't want to use your sparky as they have a brother who owns a electrical company and they want to use them. I bet sure as hell you wouldn't walk from the job and do exactly what the customer tells you.


----------



## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

Stephen H said:


> I got to dis-agree with you,C2-------------
> 
> there is a loooooooooong list of obvious things I should not have to tell an employee or a sub:
> don't bang the homeowners wife,or the homeowner, don't root through the homeowners daughters panty drawers, don't pee in the bushes, don't set the garage on fire, don't park your truck on the lawn........and so on and so forth.........
> ...


But Steve.... banging the HO is normally outside the SOW... unless of course you have it contracted?? :laughing:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

BCConstruction said:


> So what if the HO don't want to use your sparky as they have a brother who owns a electrical company and they want to use them. I bet sure as hell you wouldn't walk from the job and do exactly what the customer tells you.


That chit never works out. :no: I use my subs or the client coordinates and deals with their own guy. I am not interested in being involved. Been a deal killer a few times, but not many. :thumbsup:


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

BCConstruction said:


> So what if the HO don't want to use your sparky as they have a brother who owns a electrical company and they want to use them. I bet sure as hell you wouldn't walk from the job and do exactly what the customer tells you.


Most of the time the brother doesn't really want the job, as he knows what his sister's like.


----------



## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

Boy, it sure looks like people have problems with subs around here. We are subs on a lot of jobs, and, I have an ADULT working relationship with the GC's and others that we work with. Rules are layed out long before hand, and, my GC's have absolutely no problem with me handing out my card. Why??? Because I am not an adolescent a-hole looking to steal business from them. 

Most of the time, the GC's want me to work directly with the HO or commercial client. The GC's don't want to work out all the details on the electrical, that's my job. I may have some suggestions, which I talk to the GC about first, then with approval, I then talk to the client. Often though, the GC says: you're the electrician, you deal with the client about it. 

All my pricing goes through the GC, absolutely no numbers go directly to the client, unless the GC says so, and, even then, he gets a predetermined cut of the action. On almost every job, I have suggested upgrade and quality changes to the client as a way to save time, trouble and money in the future. Guess what, the GC's love it, cus now they are making 2 to 3 times the amount of profit on the electrical than originally. At least that's how it goes in my experience. 

I always ask my GC's before if it is ok to hand out my card. Of course we have worked together for some time, so it's pretty much a no brainer. The GC's don't know much electrical, that's why I'm there. 

However, to be fair, if it's an electrical or security job, and I'm the "GC", and, if one of my subs ( who is another C10 or security contractor) started yapping with the client, made design changes, or handed them his card, I would be more than a little pissed off. But then again, being an adult, I have already layed out the game plan prior to us arriving at the site.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I'm a sub and general I suppose.

I know my rolls with the contractors I work with. This isn't really that big of a deal.

Don't work with him or do work with him. It's easy.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I cant believe its a big deal for a sub to give a card out. Dont be an azz. We all have businesses to run. Being a GC doesnt give you ownership of a client- sub relationship. If that relationship crosses the line, new sub. Period.

I cant see how it woukd hurt my business to have my electrician doing work after the project for my clients. My electrician(s) do..... imo it speaks volumes about my trade partners that they can handle doing their trade without my supervision. .....

If you need to mark up an individual trade you dont employ after the project, get a new business model. You are drowning


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

This horse is sore...


----------



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Want your own run straight at a customer find the lead yourself. Simple.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Wut?


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Most GCs are shameless self promoters. Lol Not my bag, but if invested a lot of jack in my leads I might sing a different tune. But I doubt it. Not my bag.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

So what happens when the job is over and 2 mths later HO needs a sparky. Is the HO expected to go through the GC with the GC's markup and co-ordination to have a new light fixture put in? Does this go on in perpetuity? What if the HO asked the sparky for a card? Would he be denied? Should the sparky say "you can find me through Nice Guy GC only?

If I had a sub working under me and I thought they were poaching work that would be one thing, but I guess it's all about intent


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I really don't want people calling me for a ceiling fan install but I always appreciate the opportunity to sell something else.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> So what happens when the job is over and 2 mths later HO needs a sparky. Is the HO expected to go through the GC with the GC's markup and co-ordination to have a new light fixture put in? Does this go on in perpetuity? What if the HO asked the sparky for a card? Would he be denied? Should the sparky say "you can find me through Nice Guy GC only?
> 
> If I had a sub working under me and I thought they were poaching work that would be one thing, but I guess it's all about intent


In this state a GC cannot legally take on an electrical contract or any other contract except framing or carpentry, without the proper specialty license. Unless he takes on two or more trades on the same project then he can do whatever he wants. That keeps the GC from taking work from the subs.

EDIT: a GC can take on an electrical contract by itself if he hires an electrical contractor with a C-10 electrical license, or he has his own C-10 license.


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

To be fair not much is legal in your state..


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> To be fair not much is legal in your state..


I'm probably a felon and don't even know it.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> So what happens when the job is over and 2 mths later HO needs a sparky. Is the HO expected to go through the GC with the GC's markup and co-ordination to have a new light fixture put in? Does this go on in perpetuity? What if the HO asked the sparky for a card? Would he be denied? Should the sparky say "you can find me through Nice Guy GC only?
> 
> If I had a sub working under me and I thought they were poaching work that would be one thing, but I guess it's all about intent


:thumbsup: this why my trade partners are listed in the project book I turn over with the keys.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I really don't want people calling me for a ceiling fan install but I always appreciate the opportunity to sell something else.


I have a good business relationship with my trades, as Im sure you do. They will promote you when the opportunity arrises :thumbsup: I signed some sweet projects my plumber, hvac and electrician turned me onto last year :thumbsup:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Jaws said:


> I have a good business relationship with my trades, as Im sure you do. They will promote you when the opportunity arrises :thumbsup: I signed some sweet projects my plumber, hvac and electrician turned me onto last year :thumbsup:


Me too. Some of our best gigs have come from our subs. Its good business for them to refer people who use them. One hand feeds the other which supplies reach arounds..


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Me too. Some of our best gigs have come from our subs. Its good business for them to refer people who use them. One hand feeds the other which supplies reach arounds..


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

You crack me up :thumbsup:


----------



## VinylHanger (Jul 14, 2011)

I rarely if ever sub myself out these days. A few months out, I helped a local CG out for a day trimming windows. At the end of the day, the HO asked me about installing some windows in her Gazebo. Glass and windows being my ballywick in town I just automatically handed her a card.

As soon as I looked at the other contractor I knew I had made a flub. It wasn't on purpose, just a habit as I run my own thing most times. After talking to him and apologizing, he actually wished I would take her from him. I politely declined, as I had started to realize the no win situation he was in. :no:


----------



## pibe (Jan 21, 2013)

Im a bit confused as to how an electrician is going to steal work from a GC unless the gc has some in house guys he usually employs. After the electrician did the agreed upon work for you is he going to be cutting into your profit somehow by installing ceiling fans or doing other minor things after the major job has been completed that the HO might call them later for? (by the way i see lots of GCs around here talking about how they do little things like that but im pretty sure around here[NC] you need to be a licensed elec. to even do little things like move an outlet or install a fan)

I have to agree with 480 and i thought his FIFY edit was hilariously spot on about some attitudes ive seen.


----------



## PCI (Jun 8, 2012)

Here's the problem with the small ceing fan job that the electrian picks up. The HO is use to the GCs excellent work, execution and clean up. Now the E-boy comes in with his favorite tool the chain drive sawz all and cuts a hole in the ceiling, the upper level floor and takes out 3 joists. Lag screws his ceiling fan in with ends protruding through the upper level floor and say "it's in-I'm golden" call the electrical inspector! I'm done! 

Just kidding sparkys ( and plumbsrs)!

Love you guys, can't live w/o you!


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

My electrician is a surgeon. The plumber on the other hand....


----------



## PCI (Jun 8, 2012)

Ohio, I hear you! Man, when the plumber pulls out that finely tuned electric chain saw to put in his 1/2 inch pex I just start running for the screw jacks to keep the roof up!


----------



## pibe (Jan 21, 2013)

PCI said:


> Here's the problem with the small ceing fan job that the electrian picks up. The HO is use to the GCs excellent work, execution and clean up. Now the E-boy comes in with his favorite tool the chain drive sawz all and cuts a hole in the ceiling, the upper level floor and takes out 3 joists. Lag screws his ceiling fan in with ends protruding through the upper level floor and say "it's in-I'm golden" call the electrical inspector! I'm done!
> 
> Just kidding sparkys ( and plumbsrs)!
> 
> Love you guys, can't live w/o you!



So youre saying the GC should install the fan that he legally should not be installing? Sorry....not quite sure which way youre going with your sarcasm here.


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

pibe said:


> So youre saying the GC should install the fan that he legally should not be installing? Sorry....not quite sure which way youre going with your sarcasm here.


A GC can legally install a ceiling fan as long as he is doing one other trade on the same project. Here in California anyway. fYI if its legal in Cali ill bet its legal everywhere else. Because Cali is probably the most business choking, regulated state on Gods green earth.


----------



## ScipioAfricanus (Sep 13, 2008)

> Originally Posted by scipioafricanus View Post
> The gc is three rungs up the ladder above God, as i understand it, they create universes and start entire cosmoses. The sub (electricians) is a worthless piece of used toilet paper that can be replaced with a trained monkey as he owes the GC his very existence and would wither away and die without the presence of an omnipotent GC.






480sparky said:


> F I F Y.
> f i f y.


No no no, you have it all wrong again, the GC created the electrician. He looked upon his creation and said...it is good.

The GC then created a partner for the electrician as it was not good for the sparky to be alone, so the GC created plumber. The GC looked upon this and said...this...ain't so good.

So he then created the roofer and thought "well this sh!t is just getting worse and worse".

The GC then created the rough framer, thought to himself, "O.K. much better, things are looking up".

Then there was a succession of other trades, tile setters, HVAC guys, concrete finishers, etc. all with varying degrees of success until he hit upon another bit of gold and created the finish carpenter.

After that things went down-hill quickly with the creation of drywall hangers and painters.

So he went to the only source in the universe that he knew was greater than he...the designer.

He asked the designer, " I am at a real stumbling block here, I have created all these trades and they are all constantly bickering with each other and it is driving me f'ing nuts, what do I do now"? 

And I said to him "write me an RFI , I'll get back to you in a couple weeks".

Now piss-off.


Andy.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> A GC can legally install a ceiling fan as long as he is doing one other trade on the same project. Here in California anyway. fYI if its legal in Cali ill bet its legal everywhere else. Because Cali is probably the most business choking, regulated state on Gods green earth.


In Ontario no one but a homeowner or licensed sparky can do E work. 120v and up anyway, 12v stuff anyone can touch.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> No no no, you have it all wrong again, the GC created the electrician. He looked upon his creation and said...it is good.
> 
> The GC then created a partner for the electrician as it was not good for the sparky to be alone, so the GC created plumber. The GC looked upon this and said...this...ain't so good.
> 
> ...


your close..first was the mason (before the GC incredibly) Everyone else is just a poor imitation


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> your close..first was the mason (before the GC incredibly) Everyone else is just a poor imitation


:thumbsup: That is the truth, for sure. 

But now structures are built of wood, of poured concrete in forms built by a carpenter


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Jaws said:


> :thumbsup: That is the truth, for sure.
> 
> But now structures are built of wood, of poured concrete in forms built by a carpenter


yeah, we've been going downhill since WWII


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> your close..first was the mason (before the GC incredibly) Everyone else is just a poor imitation


What was cool about the system back then, is a mason started as a laborer, then a hand, then a journey guy, then a master mason. Great master masons became builders :thumbsup: No pretty boy builders. :thumbup:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> yeah, we've been going downhill since WWII


:laughing:


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Jaws said:


> What was cool about the system back then, is a mason started as a laborer, then a hand, then a journey guy, then a master mason. Great master masons became builders :thumbsup: No pretty boy builders. :thumbup:


Yeah, I think most of the great builders of the past had more than a bit of dust in their lungs

The other great thing was they all needed math. No highschool drop outs who can't figure out how to make a 45* angle without a speed square


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> Yeah, I think most of the great builders of the past had more than a bit of dust in their lungs
> 
> The other great thing was they all needed math. No highschool drop outs who can't figure out how to make a 45* angle without a speed square


Dont know many builders who arent good at math, but imagine there are some. 

Doubt many of Romes or Greeces great builders were not a student of the findings of Euclid.:thumbsup:


----------



## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

dom-mas said:


> yeah, we've been going downhill since WWII


Off topic, but we did some demo yesterday, pulled apart part of a house built during the war - 1942. The planking is lumber from old packing boxes, all labelled "Sperry Gyroscope Company". They made gyroscopes for military ships, and I figure they came out of the shipyards in S.F. and Oakland.


----------



## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

PCI said:


> Here's the problem with the small ceing fan job that the electrian picks up. The HO is use to the GCs excellent work, execution and clean up. Now the E-boy comes in with his favorite tool the chain drive sawz all and cuts a hole in the ceiling, the upper level floor and takes out 3 joists. Lag screws his ceiling fan in with ends protruding through the upper level floor and say "it's in-I'm golden" call the electrical inspector! I'm done!


I would hope you had screened your subs better prior to hiring them yourself. 

After all, YOU brought them in the house in the first place. I personally would expect my trades (if i was a gc) to clean up after themselves. In fact it would be in the contract.

If your bringing subs to the job that you have to babysit for fear of poor quality when you're not around then you need to reconsider who you hire.


----------



## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Dont know many builders who arent good at math, but imagine there are some.
> 
> Doubt many of Romes or Greeces great builders were not a student of the findings of Euclid.:thumbsup:


Them Romans had build-calc.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Dont know many builders who arent good at math, but imagine there are some.
> 
> Doubt many of Romes or Greeces great builders were not a student of the findings of Euclid.:thumbsup:


yeah... When you see a guy and he's doing framing layout with a framing square??? No cross corner, no 3 4 5. or using a 4' level to make sure that the 60' length of house is good?

Some guys have no idea, yet they still get contracts and they get inspections passed and hey...if they pass inspection, what could be wrong...... right?


----------



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Al Taper said:


> I took a electrician to look at a job I am bidding. Its a basement renovation. Showed him what I needed done and the HO gave his input on a few things. As we are walking out the electrician hand the HO his card.
> Before we went in I forgot to ask him not to give his card out. So, I am part to blame.
> As we walked to our trucks, I told him I didn't care for him to give his card out to the HO when He would be working for me on the Job. He gave me this look . lol
> 
> ...


This thread started like this. GC didn't yet have the job. No parameters and yet been set. The HO lacked concept of the rules. Tough to retract once distorted but still against the rules and if you don't know it someone didn't teach you right. No, I didn't make the rules but I know them and live by them as should you. 

If I bring a sub in they are introduced as "My so and so" so it's known as such. If I'm brought in by a GC I'm theirs. It is so basic and simple.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

oh yeah...what was this thread about anyway???? Surely not about math with roman numerals

I do agree though. I think the card should have been given to the HO at the end of the job or at least on the OK from the GC. doesn't matter if a GC or anyone else in the trade brings me in on a job. Until I hear otherwise I assume I'm giving them my price (no GC license required in Ont) and they are passing ot onto the HO with any markupo they do or do not want to include. After the job is done the HO can poach me if he/she wants


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> yeah... When you see a guy and he's doing framing layout with a framing square??? No cross corner, no 3 4 5. or using a 4' level to make sure that the 60' length of house is good?
> 
> Some guys have no idea, yet they still get contracts and they get inspections passed and hey...if they pass inspection, what could be wrong...... right?


Wouldnt know, I am old school. Framing square and Pythagorean square in tow always :thumbsup:


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Wouldnt know, I am old school. Framing square and Pythagorean square in tow always :thumbsup:


framing square to square a building? Pythagorean yup, 24"x16" sqaure for a 60x 30' house. Not so much. Framing squares are great for stairs and roofs and making cuts and squaring things that are 4' or less but putting a square on each corner of a foundation and saying "see it's square" I doubt you do that


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> framing square to square a building? Pythagorean yup, 24"x16" sqaure for a 60x 30' house. Not so much. Framing squares are great for stairs and roofs and making cuts and squaring things that are 4' or less but putting a square on each corner of a foundation and saying "see it's square" I doubt you do that


Dont doubt what I say :thumbsup: I check slabs with the Pythagorean therom( it goes WAY past 3, 4, 5 :whistling) and a control line. BEFORE we pour. 60x30 is childs play....

This topic has been covered before. You doubt I go with 3/16 tops tolerance on a slab, come check it out :thumbsup:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Set batter boards, check square with the Pythagorean , check diagonals and use a PLS to check finish.:thumbsup:


----------



## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Square is so overrated. Builders here don't mingle in such frivolous details...


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Set batter boards, check square with the Pythagorean and use a PLS to check finish.:thumbsup:


Good old fashioned 300' steel tape works wonders also....:thumbsup:

If you really want it dead nuts bring a Surveyor in...:thumbup:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

griz said:


> Good old fashioned 300' steel tape works wonders also....:thumbsup:


Key there is STEEL :thumbsup:, I throw vinyl in the trash. Or else throw the tolerance in the trash :whistling

Cliché or not, finish work starts at the foundation. Thats not a punch line, thats real. Any trim carpenter, drywall officialdo, or tile setter will attest to that


----------



## PCI (Jun 8, 2012)

Driftweed, I say this in gest somewhat. You are right though, I do have an excellent master plumber that thinks like me in regards to remodels and cleainess. He did, however, send his boy to a job and he plumbed the laundry in backwards, s ratched up the new hot tub faucets, screwed up the sump pump depth and the bath faucet leaked. Master rectified the siuation in a couple of hours, apologized to all, orded new faucet parts and made me look like a king again-with no prodding. 

E-boy on the other hand is my fault. His theory is, its cheaper to hire a cleaner thsn pay me to clean.


----------



## pibe (Jan 21, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> A GC can legally install a ceiling fan as long as he is doing one other trade on the same project. Here in California anyway. fYI if its legal in Cali ill bet its legal everywhere else. Because Cali is probably the most business choking, regulated state on Gods green earth.


99% sure here you have to be licensed to do any MEP work. All of this is sort of pointless to the original post though. I just find it funny seeing GCs on here talking about how they do it all (while mentioning in their posts things that they technically shouldnt be doing)

And also find some of the expectations of people here kinda crazy. I think i saw a guy say his plumber had to go through him to change a toilet next door after a job or something like that? I dont even know what to say about some of the stuff. I do enjoy 380s posts though :laughing:


----------



## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> My electrician is a surgeon. The plumber on the other hand....




My plumber is a surgeon. The electrician on the other hand.............:whistling :laughing:


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Dont doubt what I say :thumbsup: I check slabs with the Pythagorean therom( it goes WAY past 3, 4, 5 :whistling) and a control line. BEFORE we pour. 60x30 is childs play....
> 
> This topic has been covered before. You doubt I go with 3/16 tops tolerance on a slab, come check it out :thumbsup:


What I doubt that you do is to square a building with a framing square. I know that it goes way past 3 4 5. 

Yes we did have the 3/16 topic a while ago, I don't know what you do but I do know that I have never seen a foundation that was that square. Most foundations vary in straightness by more than 3/16. 8 feet of concrete puts out a lot of hydrostatic pressure. I've seen pads that were near perfect but not poured walls. And the pads that are near perfect I'm sure used math (or a laser) to get at their figures and not a framing square.

Anyway, we're way off topic here


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Jaws said:


> Set batter boards, check square with the Pythagorean , check diagonals and use a PLS to check finish.:thumbsup:


Thats why this post came directly after my temper tantrum :laughing::whistling

Above methods for foundation, framing square for plating, stairs, anything on a roof beyond my speed square, and all kinds of other stuff, like a straight edge :laughing:


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Thats why this post came directly after my temper tantrum :laughing::whistling
> 
> Above methods for foundation, framing square for plating, stairs, anything on a roof beyond my speed square, and all kinds of other stuff, like a straight edge :laughing:


exactly, squares have their place but not for building layout.

As an aside I'm also not crazy about "builders" that can't make the basic angles, 90, 45, with nothing more than a nail and some string. If you don't understand how to extend a line you need to read some more.

WOW this horse sure is high


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

dom-mas said:


> exactly, squares have their place but not for building layout.
> 
> As an aside I'm also not crazy about "builders" that can't make the basic angles, 90, 45, with nothing more than a nail and some string. If you don't understand how to extend a line you need to read some more.
> 
> WOW this horse sure is high


Isnt that what batter boards are....:whistling


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Isnt that what batter boards are....:whistling


Yup but it's understanding that that is what they are, and understanding that you can use the same concept anywhere you are working, not just before the foundation walls are up.

Look all I' saying is that some builders get it, others don't. You and most of the guys here sound like the ones that get it. But there are a LOT that don't. and a LOT of foundation subs and subdivision framers (no offence to anyone who works in subdivisions I'm not making an all encompassing remark) who have no idea how to use math to come up with square angles or that could bisect that angle if need be Should add that there are tons of masons that can't do it either. We're often a bad breed these days too


----------



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Set batter boards, check square with the Pythagorean , check diagonals and use a PLS to check finish.:thumbsup:



Not many buildings are rectangles anymore. I like working off one long control line with a (sometimes more than a) perpendicular line- not necessarily on the end walls but relative to center.


----------



## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

Inner10 said:


> I don't see the big problem...
> 
> I give a better rate to the contractors that feed me a steady stream of work. What I don't like is when the contractor hands the same quote directly over to the homeowner and says "deal with him directly".


I agree..yet I Disagree.

I guess I'm old school.i dont hand out cards.

GCs I work with have had their clients call me directly but i do not take that into my own hands.


----------



## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

Kowboy said:


> Stephen:
> 
> I'm not so sure about that one. There could be a flying junction box in there or something. A thorough electrician would make sure.
> 
> Joe


Excuse me..where's the circuit panel?..oh in the garage?.....and the hamper?


----------



## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Never said that. I'm just saying there's a few who maintain a God Complex.


That's just dumb..they're in biz like anyone else..if you don't get it you never will.

You do not solicit Or promote yourself on someone else's job..PERIOD

it isn't a GOD complex..its courtesy


----------



## going_commando (Feb 19, 2013)

jamestrd said:


> That's just dumb..they're in biz like anyone else..if you don't get it you never will.
> 
> You do not solicit Or promote yourself on someone else's job..PERIOD
> 
> it isn't a GOD complex..its courtesy


If I am on a job under a GC, while that job is going on, the invoices go to the GC. Once the GC leaves, that customer is mine if they keep calling. I am not the GC's b*tch, I am doing work they are not capable or legally able to do. You can call me "your" electrician if you want, but I am separate business doing work you can't, so don't act like you own me. I am not going to put a wood floor in for the customer, frame walls, or hang drywall, etc, I am there to do electrical work so it isn't like I am in any kind of competition with the other trades on a job. The customer is going to get a business card, because if they want electrical work done after the GC's SOW is complete, they might as well call me since I have already worked on the premises. While the GC's SOW is ongoing, invoices and decisions get pushed through the GC within reason.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

jamestrd said:


> That's just dumb..they're in biz like anyone else..if you don't get it you never will.
> 
> You do not solicit Or promote yourself on someone else's job..PERIOD
> 
> it isn't a GOD complex..its courtesy


So a GC who thinks they have the right to *dictate* how others run their business doesn't have a God complex? "I'm a _builder_, you're just a lowly peon sub...."

Do you tell _other_ businesses how to run their companies? Your bank? The gas station? Your dentist? 

I work for ME. YOU don't tell me how to run my business. Don't expect me to kiss your ass, grovel, apologize for my transgressions and bow to your demands. If you don't like how _*I*_ run _*my*_ business, _then don't hire me_.

It's as simple as that.


----------



## renov8r (Feb 16, 2013)

jamestrd said:


> That's just dumb..they're in biz like anyone else..if you don't get it you never will.
> 
> You do not solicit Or promote yourself on someone else's job..PERIOD
> 
> it isn't a GOD complex..its courtesy


Exactly what I've been saying for years. I've been on sites where I was hired by other GC's, dad, uncle and friend and I've had neighbors come up and talk to me to get quotation for work. I've always said talk to the boss, and we can come over for a quotation.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

renov8r said:


> Exactly what I've been saying for years. I've been on sites where I was hired by other GC's, dad, uncle and friend and I've had neighbors come up and talk to me to get quotation for work. I've always said talk to the boss, and we can come over for a quotation.


There's a difference between one builder hiring another builder, (they both do the same thing), and a builder hiring a specialized trade he's unable to do himself.

But of course, builders don't 'see it' that way.


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

480sparky said:


> There's a difference between one builder hiring another builder, (they both do the same thing), and a builder hiring a specialized trade he's unable to do himself.
> 
> But of course, builders don't 'see it' that way.


Man, you really generalize dont you? Not all GCs are cut from the same cloth. Like I said, unrelated trades are more than welcome to get work while on my projects. Dont want a cut and dont want to mark up straight electrical, plumbing, hvac, irrigation, whatever. If I dont do it and its not part of my scope, I dont want it. :thumbsup:

Not all of us have a god complex either :no: I expect the trades I work with to do what they say they will, when they say they will and for what they said they would do it for. Just as they expect me to have everything ready for them, all selections made, fixtures on site and not a dozen trades tripping over each other. :thumbsup:

If someone doesnt do those things, I will address that issue as it arrises. 

Dont wave your wand over the whole profession :no:


----------



## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

going_commando said:


> If I am on a job under a GC, while that job is going on, the invoices go to the GC. Once the GC leaves, that customer is mine if they keep calling. I am not the GC's b*tch, I am doing work they are not capable or legally able to do. You can call me "your" electrician if you want, but I am separate business doing work you can't, so don't act like you own me. I am not going to put a wood floor in for the customer, frame walls, or hang drywall, etc, I am there to do electrical work so it isn't like I am in any kind of competition with the other trades on a job. The customer is going to get a business card, because if they want electrical work done after the GC's SOW is complete, they might as well call me since I have already worked on the premises. While the GC's SOW is ongoing, invoices and decisions get pushed through the GC within reason.


I dont see anything wrong with this :thumbsup:

I leave my subs and vendors contact information in the project book I hand over at completion, along with owners manuals. I ask the client to contact me for any warranty issues, but if they need a sink replacement next year I hope they call my plumber.


----------



## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Jaws said:


> Man, you really generalize dont you? Not all GCs are cut from the same cloth. Like I said, unrelated trades are more than welcome to get work while on my projects. Dont want a cut and dont want to mark up straight electrical, plumbing, hvac, irrigation, whatever. If I dont do it and its not part of my scope, I dont want it. :thumbsup:
> 
> Not all of us have a god complex either :no: I expect the trades I work with to do what they say they will, when they say they will and for what they said they would do it for. Just as they expect me to have everything ready for them, all selections made, fixtures on site and not a dozen trades tripping over each other. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Amen! I want my subs happy and I will always give referrals without wanting a cut. And they do the same for me! It's called team effort, and there is no "I" in team.


----------



## Timmilano (May 27, 2013)

*Maybe not as bad as you think*

I'm probably more paranoid then anyone but giving out his card just establishes he is a professional and if he is ethical and plans to not go around you and work for HO on his own it s only to your credit that you are binging on skilled craftsman that actually ar professional enough to have his own card. Try to salvage relationship with the sub and explain why your paranoid and really feel like many do but probably if we're I I would say that I shouldn't have made that assumption and let's start over. It's to important for me to not take advantage of good sub relationships. 

All that said. If he is a dirt bag he knows where you stand. 
Good luck


----------

