# Small Claims Court



## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

So we had a customer who didn't like they way his shower turned out. He bought the materials and his wife didn't like the way it looked. He wanted us to rip it out for free and redo it. Obviously that isn't a solution most contractor or anyone would oblige to. So after refusing to pay the final payment of about $3000, he started to claim workmanship issues. I just chalked it up to a customer who wasn't happy with their choice of tile and moved on. Now he wants to sue us for what it would cost another contractor to replace the tile. So not only did he not pay us, stopped payment on a check to one of our contractors, but he also wants US to pay for his shower to be redone. 
My stance on this is unless that shower is being redone with the same tile selection (he had obvious buyers remorse) then he just trying to get a free, plus an extra $3200, shower. 
But here is my original question. He is taking me personally to small claims court. I filed an LLC a few weeks ago. In 4 years, he is only our second customer to be upset and it spurred me to go ahead and get an LLC just in case. Some people simply can't be please. They exist and you have to protect yourself and your personal property against people who simply refuse to be practical. So now that I have this LLC in place, can he actually sue me as a person or would it have had to be there to begin with at the start of the project? I personally don't believe we owe him anything. He actually owes us almost $4000 for non payment. I don't know what kind recourse or defense I have, but this all just sounds really shady on his part. My last contact with him was sending the final invoice and then him responding with "I am not paying you!" followed by insults and threats. 
Any insight would be helpful, we have never dealt with this before as we try to make sure all of our customers are happy. The only other person we couldn't please was a man that fired 8 realtors, had a history of contacting companies for refunds and credits (he got a free vanity from home depot because the box had a hole at delivery even though the vanity itself was flawless. He was relentless on the phone with companies. Getting free paint from Sherwin Williams because he claimed it was made wrong; wasn't. Free faucet because it was missing a piece it wasn't supposed to be sold with to begin with. He had a skill for free and just not getting off the phone until he got his way.) and believed it was his way or the highway. I let that one pass as a mentally troubled individual and moved on without our final payment. 
I am not saying that work is always perfect. There just isnt a way to have perfection every time, but some people simply aren't practical. I feel this case is buyers remorse, they bought tile they didn't like after it was installed. (sorry this may have also become a vent. I am just really upset). We pride ourselves in our work. We are A+ rated and 5 stars on yelp and google. There is a reason people hire us and rehire us. We have customers that we have literally worked on their first home buy, their second, and their third. We don't leave people not happy. 
Thanks


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

You have a contract?

Counter sue his ass....:thumbsup:


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## Peter_C (Nov 26, 2014)

If your contract has a lien clause for failure of payment, lien his house. That will get his attention and that of his mortgage lender.


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## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

Peter_C said:


> If your contract has a lien clause for failure of payment, lien his house. That will get his attention and that of his mortgage lender.


We do not have a lien clause, just payment and materials terms. It is my fault for assuming most people in this world are good (that is my failure). I do communicate with our customers in emails and text to have things in writing. I should/will be setting up a more detailed contract. We never go into anything thinking someone is gonna be a total jerk, that is my lapse in judgement.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Setting up an LLC expost facto most likely isn't going to help you here... hopefully you have pics of the work and back up communications...

In your case, you can either roll the dice and hope you get a judge that will side with you being that they bought the materials and all you did was install, or considering your multiple exposures (i.e. - no lien clause/notification, operating as a sole proprietor, that you left the job and chalked it up to an unsatisfied customer instead of pursuing completion of the job, etc.) you can/should consult a lawyer, find out your actual exposures and options based on all the info you have and decide from there... even if the consultation costs a couple hundred (most usually do the consult for free), it's in your best interest to have someone from your state advise you... if you, as a business, are being sued, most judges will most likely require you to get a lawyer nowadays...

If you have something in writing that he wanted you to redo it, it's going to be more difficult for him to explain workmanship...


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

OP, what state are you in?
Here in NJ you can't just have a contract, it has to be a state approved contract with certain details in it.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Some people just need to get kicked in the gazats! This guy is one of them...

Other than that, I can't help you.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

texas, maybe jaws can help


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## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

I got the paperwork dropped off today. He basically said his shower tile was installed looking like it was done with hatchets and that the entire project needs to be redone. The way it was worded was very unprofessional. To me it sounds like someone with entitlement issue, too far up on his horse. But regardless, we have court. After so many projects, so many 5 star reviews, and happy customers, I doubt we all of a sudden forgot how to install tile. 
While I agree his tile choice was not great, that isn't our fault. I am interested to see what he presents in court. 
Guess I'll be calling lawyers to see what our options are. 
Either way, we will go on with our lives with a successful company and this guy can just keep living his obvious miserable existence. If he treats us this way, I feel bad for anyone who has to deal with him every day.
We do take photos and videos throughout the projects to show the progress and "status". We post photos to the facebook page when each project is complete. If this job was such a hack job, why would we have put it on our page the day we completed the project? 
Thanks for yalls input.


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## tang (Jan 5, 2009)

Can you post a picture? I would like to see the hatchet cut tile...


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

The first thing you better figure out is whether your practices conform with contracting and consumer protection laws in your state. It's going to cost you for the legal advice on this, but going to court if you're breaking state laws is a really bad idea, and legal retainers for something like that around here is $3k.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

Beingguided:

How old is this customer? I lost a slam dunk small claims court case when the 85-year-old man suing me perjured himself. Facts don't matter here, believe me. Even judges want to find a victory for sympathetic plaintiffs.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

A good clause for your revised contract is that your workmanship will adhere to the NAHB Performance Standards book. If you can't exceed the low standards in that book, get out of the business.


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## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

I always want to see pictures of these jobs in question. No disrespect to the OP but in almost 13 years I've never had a job go this far. Sure, I've had difficult people who have nit picked things that even my keen eye didn't notice but I've never done what I thought to be an acceptable job while the customer thought my work was done with a hatchet.


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## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

Golden view said:


> A good clause for your revised contract is that your workmanship will adhere to the NAHB Performance Standards book. If you can't exceed the low standards in that book, get out of the business.


Actually thanks for this. It may help us in court. As far as I can see we had all the bases covered for the tile installation. :thumbsup:


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## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

SuperiorHIP said:


> I always want to see pictures of these jobs in question. No disrespect to the OP but in almost 13 years I've never had a job go this far. Sure, I've had difficult people who have nit picked things that even my keen eye didn't notice but I've never done what I thought to be an acceptable job while the customer thought my work was done with a hatchet.


This is our "hatchet" installed tile... that "all needs to be ripped out"


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Did he point out what was unacceptable?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

Inner10 said:


> Did he point out what was unacceptable?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

beingguided said:


> Inner10 said:
> 
> 
> > Did he point out what was unacceptable?
> ...


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

He is going to have to have some sort of witness or documentation as to why it should be ripped out.
Judge won't accept his word, unless you live in Kowboy's city.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Looking at the pictures it does look like the grout joints are off. On the flats and worse in the corners. Could be an illusion through the glass.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

beingguided said:


> This is our "hatchet" installed tile... that "all needs to be ripped out"



I'd pay full price for that.

A lot of these doors have a little removable plastic piece to keep the water from getting collected in the little gutter at the bottom and being able to flow out onto the floor. The other end is open so it flows back into the shower. Is that the leak, the little plastic plug isn't in place?


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## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

hdavis said:


> I'd pay full price for that.
> 
> A lot of these doors have a little removable plastic piece to keep the water from getting collected in the little gutter at the bottom and being able to flow out onto the floor. The other end is open so it flows back into the shower. Is that the leak, the little plastic plug isn't in place?


This door he bought was a Home Depot open box return that was missing a few pieces, one of them might be the piece you are speaking of. I am familiar with that piece but I don't remember off top other than bottom seals. I sent him an email requesting a walk through. Since he is suing me, I would at least like to be there to hear his issues while I am standing in the bathroom instead of three pictures and a nasty email... followed by being served with papers.


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## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

Big Johnson said:


> Looking at the pictures it does look like the grout joints are off. On the flats and worse in the corners. Could be an illusion through the glass.


On the first one or the second one? There is reflection in the glass from the sink/counters/etc in the second one.


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

beingguided said:


> On the first one or the second one? There is reflection in the glass from the sink/counters/etc in the second one.


Both. Maybe someone who knows how to circle stuff can do so. It might be distortion through the glass.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Big Johnson said:


> Both. Maybe someone who knows how to circle stuff can do so. It might be distortion through the glass.


...


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Really zoom in on those and they don't look nearly so bad. Need better pics.

Either way, doesn't look like a total hatchet job.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> Really zoom in on those and they don't look nearly so bad. Need better pics.
> 
> Either way, doesn't look like a total hatchet job.


 Would definitely not describe it as a "hatchet job", but he didn't buy the materials, so there's also that...


Better pics would tell the story...


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Tinstaafl said:


> Really zoom in on those and they don't look nearly so bad. Need better pics.
> 
> Either way, doesn't look like a total hatchet job.


Hatchet job would be some of the photos in "Wall of Shame".

Some of those definitely are "hatchet jobs".


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## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

Hard to tell how good of a job from those pictures but if that is all I had to judge I would think its good. I hope you have a lot more and more detailed pictures to bring to court. 

Tell him for an extra charge you will install a shower door that doesn't leak on the floor when opened. Once paid up front and in full make it to where it only swings in.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

SuperiorHIP said:


> Hard to tell how good of a job from those pictures but if that is all I had to judge I would think its good. I hope you have a lot more and more detailed pictures to bring to court.
> 
> Tell him for an extra charge you will install a shower door that doesn't leak on the floor when opened. Once paid up front and in full make it to where it only swings in.


Code in the 5 states I work in require shower doors to swing out or dual swing.

Tom


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Can make nothing out with the doors closed, but it looks like some things need to be addressed they pretty obvious even with the doors closed.

You should have a chance to make this right if they let you back in, if not, they will call someone else and that someone else will make a statement that the job is subpar and he will give a bill to fix it and it will not go in your favor in front of the judge, because most judges are all about service.

Send emails and texts that you're trying to return and fix this and if they don't let you back in, you will have some leverage, if you come with nothing you will be screwed.

One more thing, if they go to court, they will bring pictures taken 8-10" away from the tile and they will pick the worst sections to shoot, so I hope you got better pictures taken of the actual tile job and not the through the glass doors because in court they not gonna help you.

Good luck


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## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

tjbnwi said:


> Code in the 5 states I work in require shower doors to swing out or dual swing.
> 
> Tom


All the ones I’ve seen swing both ways but then I doubt I’ve ever seen a home depot special.


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## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

tjbnwi said:


> Code in the 5 states I work in require shower doors to swing out or dual swing.
> 
> Tom


Meh, code shmode....problem solved with a side of FU to the guy not paying anyway.


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## tang (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm with greg24k. Do all you can to make it right! It's going to cost some money, but most lessons do... If you can't fix it, and have to go to court, take much better pictures!


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## tang (Jan 5, 2009)

SuperiorHIP said:


> Meh, code shmode....problem solved with a side of FU to the guy not paying anyway.


I wonder how the Judge would react to "code shmode" I think your case would be blowed...The FU works best when your diving away with you money.:clap:


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## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

Depends on if the judge is male or female and whether or not I wear pants under my chaps.


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## Peter_C (Nov 26, 2014)

This will fix the shower leak, when the door is opened, AND the water spot problem. 

https://www.amazon.com/Cleret-Dual-...te&refinements=p_n_srvg_2947266011:2972996011


Might not be a bad idea to bring a visual aid into court, like "This here thing belongs in every glass shower for removing the water after showering to prevent water spots forming on the nice new glass" *Hold up the squeegee*


All shower doors I have done came with a lower drip rail/sweeper.


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## Idothat (May 19, 2018)

SuperiorHIP said:


> Depends on if the judge is male or female and whether or not I wear pants under my chaps.


So, you're saying it could go " either way "


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Idothat said:


> So, you're saying it could go " either way "


It will go to the side that looks better... your job which is probably screwed up if you take pictures through the sliding glass door or unsatisfied customer with a letter from another contractor saying its a subpar job and this how much to fix it...

Kap circled 3 locations with a minimal view if he looked closer will probably have circles all over... 

That being said, you know exactly how you did that job and you know every spot that needs fixing. Don't look or guess which way this might go, instead try doing the right thing and make them happy even if it cost you a little. Remember no amount of money can compare to your reputation.

Good luck


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

If you have any kind of Certificates or awards or anything that points to you being an "expert" in your field, bring it to court.


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## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

To answer some question, its a female judge and we have photos before the door went on and videos actually. The work gets documented through out and the photos I posted were just ones I had on hand as the others are on another phone. 

I see those areas circled but those aren't even his area in question. 

I will have to take the texts with me of him saying his wife didn't like the way the tile looked once it went in and they had a big blow out about it. Not as in workmanship but as in she didn't like the look with bathroom floor. It did not turn into a "workmanship issue" until I sent him the final invoice after the job was complete. 

I have on my schedule for tomorrow to call attorneys. I hate conflict like this. Its a drain on time and energy. 

I appreciate the time you guys took to respond. And even if it doesn't go in our favor, I appreciate all yalls input.


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## Idothat (May 19, 2018)

Man, you just gotta love a farging icehole that'll try to beat a man out of money he's earned with sweat


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## dbbii2 (Apr 27, 2017)

At some point you have to figure out what your principles are worth. Going to court takes a lot of your time. What's your time worth? 

If you need an attorney, it's even worse. An attorney is going to run you at least $300 an hour, and there's going to be prep time. Probably at least 8 hours. 

I don't know of anyone who actually gets their attorney fees as part of a judgement. Most cases actually end up settling out of court (mediation ordered by judge).


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

SuperiorHIP said:


> Depends on if the judge is male or female and whether or not I wear pants under my chaps.




An inadvertent mental image of the Village People comes to mind...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

So I talked with a couple attorneys and it would be $250-350 an hour to fight this. He apparently also filed a claim with BBB (where we are currently A+), but they say he can't have both a BBB claim AND a court claim. 
The information I received from the attorney was that I did have the right to request an inspection and also bring another professional in to view the areas of complaint. 
I get the feeling based off the fees I am being quoted for attorneys and his knowledge of suing people, that he assumes we will just pay him and not fight this. I hate when people cannot handle things themselves and on their very first response its "I am passing this over to my lawyer!"
Does everyone have to be so hostile? Jeez.

I am going to email him the request for a walk through and see how that goes. If he refuses, then that is another thing...

I am half way willing to put the $3000 retainer just to fight this SOB. This just isn't the way you handle things and to me he is trying to bully his way through since we are just a small company. I need to call our general liability insurance as well and see if this is covered; the attorney advised me to do that as the insurance would supply the attorney.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

beingguided said:


> So I talked with a couple attorneys and it would be $250-350 an hour to fight this. He apparently also filed a claim with BBB (where we are currently A+), but they say he can't have both a BBB claim AND a court claim.
> The information I received from the attorney was that I did have the right to request an inspection and also bring another professional in to view the areas of complaint.
> I get the feeling based off the fees I am being quoted for attorneys and his knowledge of suing people, that he assumes we will just pay him and not fight this. I hate when people cannot handle things themselves and on their very first response its "I am passing this over to my lawyer!"
> Does everyone have to be so hostile? Jeez.
> ...


It's small claims, not big boy court, ask your lawyer for a student to help you out.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

beingguided said:


> So I talked with a couple attorneys and it would be $250-350 an hour to fight this. He apparently also filed a claim with BBB (where we are currently A+), but they say he can't have both a BBB claim AND a court claim.
> The information I received from the attorney was that I did have the right to request an inspection and also bring another professional in to view the areas of complaint.
> I get the feeling based off the fees I am being quoted for attorneys and his knowledge of suing people, that he assumes we will just pay him and not fight this. I hate when people cannot handle things themselves and on their very first response its "I am passing this over to my lawyer!"
> Does everyone have to be so hostile? Jeez.
> ...


Check into prepaidlegalservices.com

They can do free consultations, free letter writing, free phone calls, etc... go to this page and review what they have to offer for business as if you decide to use a lawyer, even after the free stuff is utilized, it's at a discounted rate and according to the website and unused retainer is refunded...

Good luck...


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## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

Follow up. Talked to insurance. I need to file a claim with our adjuster and they will investigate the situation. So fingers crossed. 

I thought I would be go ahead and update the thread what we are advised and steps being taken in case there is another person/company dealing with a similar situation. I didn't have much to go on at the beginning of this and couldn't find a ton of answers on "check here, do that". Maybe it will be helpful to someone else. :thumbup:


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

He is going to have to have some kind of expert report or witness that says what you did was wrong.


Do you know any other tile guys you can bring to court to tell the judge you installed everything according to proper "standards"?

Then it becomes two experts vs one expert.


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## Peter_C (Nov 26, 2014)

Having experience with lawsuits and insurance companies, I can tell you they are quick to pay out even when it is a bogus claim. Do NOT count on the insurance company to be on your side. They may well raise your rates after a pay out though. 

(We had a building far below us that flooded and they blamed it on ALL the properties uphill. Our property runoff flows a different direction and had nothing to do with their flooding and the heavy rains that caused their drainage ditch to fail. All of our insurance companies paid out. Sucks! No integrity.)


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## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

Honestly I am ok with them paying him and if they raise our rate, so be it. We have never had a claim in 5 years. I honestly just want this all over with. Its been a drain on morale. Our workers are angry, we are angry. Its just been a time and energy suck. As much as I want to fight him in the ring, I also just want this go away. 

I am half way tempted to go talk to his neighbor. This guy brought his neighbor over to show off his shower. Even referred us to him while we were there. My partner said the guy's exact words at the end of the project were "It looks nice, its just not what I wanted". I wish I had that recorded somewhere. 

The BBB did close his case and we have no mark on our record for it. Stating "BBB does not pursue any complaints that are currently going through legal actions. It has been closed as Beyond Purview and requires no action on your part."

The way I see this is we lost 3 weeks of labor. We lost the $2600 he didn't pay. We lost 3 weeks of time we could have done other projects since our schedule has been full all summer. If we lose the case, that's another $7300. All in all his BS costs us about $25000.

One thing I have learned from this is we need a sign off at the end of each project. Job done, customer approved and signed. Done and done. Normally we consider them paying us the "sign off". Job is done, they give us a check, everyone is happy. That bit us in the ass this time.


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

Where are you out of?

As far as the HO’s statement, go back to records of that day and determine the date/time he said it and write it down. 

I use the Notes app on my iPhone for documenting things for each job. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

The Italians used to have marvelous ways of dealing with people like this. One might even involve the shower itself


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## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

AustinDB said:


> Where are you out of?
> 
> As far as the HO’s statement, go back to records of that day and determine the date/time he said it and write it down.
> 
> ...


Central TX. 

The insurance came back saying it doesn't cover workmanship claims (which isn't why I bought it to begin with so I am not surprised, just would have be a nice extra) but that they might have a "I can't remember the term" attorney responsibility. So we will see what the adjuster says. I responded to the claim today, so they will set a court date. I keep getting told "put a lien" but I don't know if that is the right thing to do; just don't like conflict.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

beingguided said:


> Central TX.
> 
> The insurance came back saying it doesn't cover workmanship claims (which isn't why I bought it to begin with so I am not surprised, just would have be a nice extra) but that they might have a "I can't remember the term" attorney responsibility. So we will see what the adjuster says. I responded to the claim today, so they will set a court date. I keep getting told "put a lien" but I don't know if that is the right thing to do; just don't like conflict.


There's a difference between conflict and protecting your interests... ignoring the latter usually leads to more of the former... 

Just something to consider...


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## Herminigilde (Apr 10, 2012)

KAP said:


> beingguided said:
> 
> 
> > Central TX.
> ...


KAP is dead right. Especially in our industry. Sometimes it's just impossible to be a"nice guy" and not get our throats cut. And if we don't protect ourselves or company, no one else will.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

How you handle things like this is part of your company brand. It should be a conscious, long term choice, not a response to particular circumstance.

If you decide leining is the way you want to go in the future, you can let people know in a way that shows professionalism on your part.

Some people choose to do whatever it takes to have a happy customer, even if it means redoing everything 4 or 5 times. That takes higher margins and fatter bank accounts to cover the added risk.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

If you really don't like conflict, don't run a business. Subs, employees, customers, suppliers, there is nothing but opportunity for conflict. Handling those is a critical part of the job.


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## beingguided (Aug 2, 2018)

hdavis said:


> If you really don't like conflict, don't run a business. Subs, employees, customers, suppliers, there is nothing but opportunity for conflict. Handling those is a critical part of the job.


I don't think anyone enjoys conflict. You want things to just go as they should. But yes I am a "Just let it go, the World will even it out in the end" kind of person. But you are right, how a problem customer is handled sets things up for the next person. If someone feels they can get away with something, they will keep it up. 

On another note. The term I was looking for about the insurance was "duty to defend" and the adjuster came back today saying its not part of our policy. I wonder if that's an add on...

The court got my response today so they will set a date.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Good luck!


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