# paying subs by the amount actually installed or amount of materials left?



## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Just the fact that coming up with an accurate estimate of materials and or time needed to install the same is an issue, has me thinking you aren't long for the world of contracting, at the very least you're mooching off the wholesaler with all the open stock you return every job... You are a "Demon" customer.


Huh?


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

"Angels and Demons" the Idea that you earn 80% of your profit off the 20% Angel customers, and spend 80% of your time on the 20% of Demon customers....

Of course are you are a Demon or an angel to your business relationships too.

Tightening up 5 % could double this guy's profit.... I.E. learning to estimate accurately.

I'm speaking to the OPer specifically, to all "GCs" that can't or won't actually estimate their work in general...

If one was working in the middle of nowhere, hundreds of miles from the warehouse, different rules apply to ordering materials.....like Montana for example.


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Sounds like a way to guarantee "shrinkage" as some subs gift themselves leftovers for their "side" jobs.
> 
> Well for my builders I only bill them for material used , not full returnable pieces. And I don't have side jobs.
> 
> ...


And yes it is not rocket science. but I don't know how many times I have been short if a yard salesman figured the job by your formula. Which when I provide and order I don't have happen. 

I don't know exactly who you are talking to. But have been in business for 20 years now and have done quite well.


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## jameslondon (Nov 13, 2015)

hey guys.. So if its an item thats sold by the roll do you guys still pay your installers by the amount thats delivered to the job?.. For example with underlayments or ice and water shield, I might need just barely over 4 rolls so I order 5. For Ice and Water shield I pay my guys by the $1/LF (3') for install only.. Right now I just tell them the measurements I have for all the areas its going on (we are not talking about new construction where I can send the plans to my subs) .. But I get disputes sometimes which I want to avoid.. I dont think its fair to the homeowner to charge the labor for 325LF (65'x5) instead of 260Lf


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## jameslondon (Nov 13, 2015)

I may be overthinking it but I'm finding the whole pricing process is taking a bit more time of mine then I would like and I am just looking to create an easy, accurate and streamlined process for estimating jobs when hiring subs that is fair for everyone.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Jameslondon: Your piece work rate under pays on small jobs mostly, occasionally, large material boxes favor the Sub. What honest Sub would throw away 70 square ft. of product.....

when I bid work, I charge a mobilization fee, and add a charge for wash down return if needed. 

Thus a fair rate for your subs would have a show up #, then the piece rate or a guaranteed minimum.

You should consider some sort of enclosed scrap trailer to reduce waste, again I think you are leaving several % of profit in the dumpster, or on the Night shifts project...

If you CAN'T or won't measure it, it isn't a Science, or a well run business. IMHO.:whistling

I suggest Night school at the local community college, accounting and an estimating class, its deductible and will repay you several times over.

JL @ 65: "fair for everyone"...is crazy thinking, You the GC the majority of the profit and risk is ON YOU, Pay your subs what you'd want in their postion="the Golden Rule" If you want above average work, pay 5% more then the going rate the day the job is finished, you'll be fighting off subs


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

jameslondon said:


> hey guys.. So if its an item thats sold by the roll do you guys still pay your installers by the amount thats delivered to the job?.. For example with underlayments or ice and water shield, I might need just barely over 4 rolls so I order 5. For Ice and Water shield I pay my guys by the $1/LF (3') for install only.. Right now I just tell them the measurements I have for all the areas its going on (we are not talking about new construction where I can send the plans to my subs) .. But I get disputes sometimes which I want to avoid.. I dont think its fair to the homeowner to charge the labor for 325LF (65'x5) instead of 260Lf


If I use 4 feet off a roll I count it. However in a sub situation where I don't supply the materials I am not getting a buck a foot for a 60 foot roll either. Also the roll gets transferred to the next job and used first with no additional charge.

Same goes with shingles, if I open a bundle for 2 shingles, it counts.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

jameslondon said:


> hey guys.. So if its an item thats sold by the roll do you guys still pay your installers by the amount thats delivered to the job?.. For example with underlayments or ice and water shield, I might need just barely over 4 rolls so I order 5. For Ice and Water shield I pay my guys by the $1/LF (3') for install only.. Right now I just tell them the measurements I have for all the areas its going on (we are not talking about new construction where I can send the plans to my subs) .. But I get disputes sometimes which I want to avoid.. I dont think its fair to the homeowner to charge the labor for 325LF (65'x5) instead of 260Lf


Figure out how much I&W the job requires, add a percentage to that and that becomes figure for the installed price. So if you figured 260LF add maybe 10% to that and bill it for 286LF. The excess material gets carried over to the next job and there should be enough buffer that you don't have to nickel and dime your installers.

Or

Meet with the installers before hand and come to an agreement on the amount of work to be done and what they are going to be paid for the job. Then order the materials and it really doesn't matter how much or how little is left over because they should have already provided you with a labor price.


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

A&E Exteriors said:


> If I use 4 feet off a roll I count it. However in a sub situation where I don't supply the materials I am not getting a buck a foot for a 60 foot roll either. Also the roll gets transferred to the next job and used first with no additional charge.
> 
> Same goes with shingles, if I open a bundle for 2 shingles, it counts.


I agree.
As soon as a sheet of plywood or MDF or Melamine hits the saw, it counts as a full sheet.


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## jameslondon (Nov 13, 2015)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Jameslondon: Your piece work rate under pays on small jobs mostly, occasionally, large material boxes favor the Sub. What honest Sub would throw away 70 square ft. of product.....
> 
> when I bid work, I charge a mobilization fee, and add a charge for wash down return if needed.
> 
> ...


how would you even know my piecework rate lol? i said only said one thing which was I pay $1/ft for i&w shield and even that is pretty good for labor only..


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Come back in a few years, reread the posts, then see if you've changed a little or a lot, or if you are still in business?:thumbsup:

Good luck with the "Know Nothing" approach. Just what are you bringing to the customer for your 15% O &P?:notworthy

I don't care what the actual piece rate is in your neighborhood is, I was trying to help you improve your net or value added for your victims/customers... Vaya Con Dios.


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## Dgunse01 (Apr 21, 2016)

I pay them by the wall size and dont subtract anything except garage doors or a similar sized opening. If there are a lot of Windows the sub will want more money anyway for the time they have to work around everything. I think this way is fair this means they are getting paid for some waste but aren't incentivized to waste additional product because your not tallying up what was used at the end. It would also take about 5-10 minutes for them to double check the measurements if they want. 

With roofing it's the same I pay on the roof dimensions and add for things like dormers valleys hips etc. The last thing I want to do is go count material at every job and worry about subs intentionally wasting material. I know my prices are more than fair and they seem to be happy to install the jobs. 

I'm definitely going to read through this post and see how both sides like to do it. 

How do you guys like to pay your subs? (After completion, weekly, biweekly etc.)


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

So you want your guys to fack around with windows and doors for less money then just blowing out a wall with no openings?

you sound peachy,


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## WilsonRMDL (Sep 4, 2007)

Why are you paying them by material? Measure the job yourself, pay them per sq and any left over material is yours to return or toss, your subs should have nothing to do with amount of material left/short if your supplying and only paying them by the piece.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

I'm not even gonna read this thread! :whistling


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

When I submitted an invoice for a block house it was solid count, even the 2" pieces were a solid block. Other wise lay out the windows so its full/half.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

WilsonRMDL said:


> Why are you paying them by material? Measure the job yourself, pay them per sq and any left over material is yours to return or toss, your subs should have nothing to do with amount of material left/short if your supplying and only paying them by the piece.


Material used is what the question is.

I.E. you measure 34 sq, send out 36. Final count used is 35. You may have measured 34 but it took 35 to do the job with the waste. So sub rightfully bills you for 35


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## Randy Bush (Mar 7, 2011)

So people don't understand you can not just figure the sq ft and that is what it is going to take. Looked at a job the other day when the HO had figured it all out . Deducted all the opening to get the figure, needless to say he was off by quite a bit over what I figured it would need. Have not heard back from him yet, funny thing he told me I was right about same price that someone else gave him a few years ago.


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## Gatorgrizz27 (Nov 1, 2015)

Why don't you just ask your subs to give you a price ahead of time? You can tell them a house is 40'x60' on max measurements, figure out your materials from that, and send them a couple pics if your area is large enough to make it inefficient for them to bid each job in person. 

They are able to see things that will be a pain and bill accordingly, you know the cost up front so you can work it into your bid for the homeowner without coming in over or under the estimate, and they are getting what they asked for, even if they underbid a job. 

I get that square foot prices make things easy to bid, but I'm not going to install wood flooring in a hallway with a bunch of thresholds or closets, or crown in a kitchen/dining room with a bunch of weird cuts and angles for the same price as I would in a single 20'x30' room. 

If they are smart with materials and aren't taking advantage of you, waste is going to be a factor of the overall dimensions rather than how they are cutting things. Installing crown in a 12x12 room is going to generate more waste than a 15x15 room, unless you want three-four pieces spliced together on the last wall.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Gatorgrizz27 said:


> Why don't you just ask your subs to give you a price ahead of time? You can tell them a house is 40'x60' on max measurements, figure out your materials from that, and send them a couple pics if your area is large enough to make it inefficient for them to bid each job in person.
> 
> They are able to see things that will be a pain and bill accordingly, you know the cost up front so you can work it into your bid for the homeowner without coming in over or under the estimate, and they are getting what they asked for, even if they underbid a job.
> 
> ...


If you do 200 roofs a year do you want to send pictures to 4 subs 200 times or just know their rates and pay the bill? I wouldn't want to have to price out all of your jobs as a sub when I can just give you a pricesheet and do whatever you throw at me.


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