# Training Carpenters



## TheBuildingFirm (Dec 10, 2006)

That's their only hope of being able to keep up the training centers they have.


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

woodworkbykirk said:


> whats even more sad is how the union is screaming go union, yet theres only a 60% employment rate for union carpenters


True true! Unions have done good trying to raise the average wages and keep employer expectations reasonable, but at the same time, most unions are run by people looking after themselves and nobody else. That, coupled with the fact that union guys cost more and don't offer a better product than non-union companies, leaves them almost exclusively confined to locked-in government contracts. It also doesn't help when they waste their employees' time by picketing instead of getting work done and getting paid.

The concept of a union is great, but the execution is rarely effective in achieving its goals.


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## CanningCustom (Nov 4, 2007)

I agree, i've gone on some union sites up here and let me tell you some of the people that are protected by the union are just hacks. I have never seen framing so bad. My 11yr old son playing with tools for the first time could do a better job.


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## CJ21 (Aug 11, 2007)

Remodelor said:


> There's a real lack of structure in the US contracting world. The businesses and owners are held accountable for a lot, but there aren't a lot of requirements on the employees. For example, if I have a builders license, I can hire some yahoo off the street to do my work. I just have to be responsible, have insurance and to get my license is as easy as taking an exam that requires a few days preparation for (learning how to reference the ICC book.) I could produce absolute sh"t quality work and I wouldn't be breaking the law.
> 
> There aren't a lot of people looking to hire rookies, so you kind of have to "fake it till you make it" in a lot of professions sadly. Hell, I asked my boss if I could work with him finishing some drywall because I'd like to get better at it, but he told me he "didn't have time to pay me to learn." To me, this is a horrible strategy. The more I learn, the more I can do, giving him more time to actually run his business. Instead, he's busy pinching pennies now without looking towards the future.
> 
> ...


 
I am having the same problem, no one wonts to hire rookies!


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

CJ21 said:


> I am having the same problem, no one wonts to hire rookies!


That's my point. The senior generation and ALL companies need to step up to the plate and do their share of taking on and training the guys wanting to come into the trade.

Like I said, someone took the time to train you, time to pay it back. :thumbsup:


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

katoman said:


> That's my point. The senior generation and ALL companies need to step up to the plate and do their share of taking on and training the guys wanting to come into the trade.
> 
> Like I said, someone took the time to train you, time to pay it back. :thumbsup:


Wish I could thank this 10 times.


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## CanningCustom (Nov 4, 2007)

Well i do you are right in "step up" point of view, but first we have to find young people who are passionate and want to do this as a living. I would love to see more of the younger generation put down the xbox controller and come on out, but i don't see it happening soon. No one want's to play in the element's.


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## kyle_dmr (Mar 17, 2009)

CanningCustom said:


> Well i do you are right in "step up" point of view, but first we have to find young people who are passionate and want to do this as a living. I would love to see more of the younger generation put down the xbox controller and come on out, but i don't see it happening soon. No one want's to play in the element's.


Hard to find people for a crew when i'm the oldie at 22. I refuse to take on people much more then a year or 2 older than I am


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

kyle_dmr said:


> Hard to find people for a crew when i'm the oldie at 22. I refuse to take on people much more then a year or 2 older than I am


 
Oldie at 22?!

Christ! Im the youngin by and the least 9 years of 22.....

Unless you count our labourer....


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Brutus said:


> One of the things why I never understood the whole "UNITED States of America". Not very united when it comes to laws it seems.


It is clear that you do not understand. United does not mean the same. It simply means that we have certain common beliefs. In these beliefs they knew that divided it would not work, but through unity we could benefit from each others strengths.

You cannot run North Dakota like New York. They are two different in geography, economy, and way of life.

Let's take the Chicago area for example. Here in IL Electrical codes differs from Incorporated areas and Unincorporated. They could require conduit on one side of the street that is incorporated and Romex will do on the other side. There are no set of standards that work for every where. 

This is the greatness of the United States of America. A few large cities cannot dictate the future of all of the entire country.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

jebus, when 22 year old start talking about being the old timer on site, makes me wonder... im 30 and getting ready for knee surgery and the last week or so my lower back has been a complete mess


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## Remodelor (Nov 5, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It is clear that you do not understand. United does not mean the same. It simply means that we have certain common beliefs. In these beliefs they knew that divided it would not work, but through unity we could benefit from each others strengths.
> 
> You cannot run North Dakota like New York. They are two different in geography, economy, and way of life.
> 
> ...


The Federal Government doesn't care. They rule high upon Capitol Hill, and in their eyes, the states ought to feel lucky to have the few rights they have left.

Also, Chicago's residential conduit-based electrical code is _*asinine*_, not a shining example of States' rights. They might as well require plumbing to be run in cast iron, and all studs to be 8" OC. Knowing Chicago, it could very well be the result of some steel company bribing city officials, so that they could sell more EMT. The government there has always been and will likely always be corrupt. It's unnecessary at best, and excessive and wasteful in reality.

I'm very independent and believe in States' rights, but the reality is that the states have few meaningful rights. Look no further than how the Fed's have regulated speed limits by threatening to pull funding, or how they've still raided marijuana dispensaries that are legal by state law. I could also rant for many posts about how they're forcing us to have health insurance by threat of penalty fines, or how they want to socially engineer to behave as they see fit through tax-based incentives. (Penalties in the guise of rewards. Idiots really love these :thumbsup

I want nothing more than 50 different states with 50 different sets of laws to accommodate as many different viewpoints as possible. Still, we are far, far from that. The United States, like Unions, is great in concept, but the execution is far from ideal. Still, it's all we've got, and I fight every day trying to convince people that this country belongs to them and not the assh'les in office.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Remodelor said:


> The Federal Government doesn't care. They rule high upon Capitol Hill, and in their eyes, the states ought to feel lucky to have the few rights they have left.
> 
> Also, Chicago's residential conduit-based electrical code is _*asinine*_, not a shining example of States' rights. They might as well require plumbing to be run in cast iron, and all studs to be 8" OC. Knowing Chicago, it could very well be the result of some steel company bribing city officials, so that they could sell more EMT. The government there has always been and will likely always be corrupt. It's unnecessary at best, and excessive and wasteful in reality.
> 
> ...


I wasn't referring to Chicago as an example, but IL and it's incorporated and unincorporated areas. Mainly the burbs.

I agree that Chicago is corrupt in all parts. There was at some time someone who financially was connected to the EMT code change. I always ask inspectors why EMT and they say it's safer. I ask what about the millions of homes in the south that do not require conduit or bx and have no issues when Romex is properly installed.

But I also disagree that Chicago is not a good example of states rights. It is the perfect example. Chicago and those who lobbied for the change to EMT only, have no say as to what any other state can or cannot do. They cannot force their code on other states. If this were Canada they could lobby the entire country into a bs code and there is nothing that they could do about it.

This is what unites us. Freedom to meet the needs of your state.


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## prana16 (Dec 11, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I wasn't referring to Chicago as an example, but IL and it's incorporated and unincorporated areas. Mainly the burbs.
> 
> I agree that Chicago is corrupt in all parts. There was at some time someone who financially was connected to the EMT code change. I always ask inspectors why EMT and they say it's safer. I ask what about the millions of homes in the south that do not require conduit or bx and have no issues when Romex is properly installed.
> 
> ...



Your understanding of how the canadian code works is not so good. There is a national building code, often there are provincial building codes based on that national code taking into account those things that are more "local", larger municipalities (vancouver, toronto) have their own codes. At the end of the day it is up to the municipality to enforce and determine what their code is. It just makes sense that the national and provincial governments do the funding and research to produce codes.. they have the resources to do so. Municipalities can take from and add to as they please.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

prana16 said:


> Your understanding of how the canadian code works is not so good. There is a national building code, often there are provincial building codes based on that national code taking into account those things that are more "local", larger municipalities (vancouver, toronto) have their own codes. At the end of the day it is up to the municipality to enforce and determine what their code is. It just makes sense that the national and provincial governments do the funding and research to produce codes.. they have the resources to do so. Municipalities can take from and add to as they please.


Just based it on what was being said.

Also, it is best to introduce yourself in the introduction section before posting. Let's everyone know who you are, where you are (since it is not in your profile), and what you do.

I'll be the first to say welcome to CT!


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## dave_k (Sep 28, 2010)

katoman said:


> How many have their C 0f Q ? This is the benchmark. Even if you did not serve an apprenticeship, you can still write your exams.


I have my Red Seal C of Q. I served an apprenticeship. I signed up with a non-union contractor but when he retired in my third year I got a job with a union contractor and finished it with them.



katoman said:


> How many have trained carpenters to aquire their C of Q ?


I've always worked with apprentices both when I worked for contractors and in my career as a union trim and millwork contractor I've always had at least one apprentice working for me. I signed up 2 myself over the years however it's difficult to get an apprentice in the union these days. In the old days the contractors signed up whoever they liked as apprentices and sent them to the hall to be signed up. The contractor was responsible for the education and the union only stepped in with guys who refused to write their C of Q so the could work cheaper than a journeyman. Today the union interviews, hires and takes responsibility for the apprentices



katoman said:


> How many are currently apprenticing people?


 I'm semi retired as a contractor so I don't have any employees at the moment. I still do residential reno's and build millwork in the shop but not not on the big jobs any more. I am still involved training carpenters as a trainer for the UBC. We are building a new $7.5M training center (we have the land and are working on drawings for a spring start) and plan to offer training for both the union and non-union sectors. We won't offer apprenticeship training though, that will still be done by the province through the ministry of colleges and education.

Through my career I witnessed the near death of the apprenticeship training system through the 1980's and 90's and it's re-birth and growth over the last 10 years. It seems to me that governments and industry have finally figured out that the trained carpenter in Europe aren't immigrating any more so we have to train our own. Safety training is going to get much more important in the next little while. The Xmas eve swing stage accident in TO that killed 4 men has brought a great deal of attention to the general education of construction workers. There has already been a reaction to this. I did a week long swing stage TTT this fall and the ministry has announced a new full day fall arrest program that everyone working in construction in Ontario will have to take whether you already have fall arrest training or not. I'm doing a full day TTT on that in the new year.


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## dave_k (Sep 28, 2010)

woodworkbykirk said:


> jebus, when 22 year old start talking about being the old timer on site, makes me wonder... im 30 and getting ready for knee surgery and the last week or so my lower back has been a complete mess


I'm 52 and injuries and wear and tear has forced me off the tools. 

The bad news. 

I have sever arthritis in my knees. The only remedy the surgeon has for my right knee is a replacement. I get annual shots of hyaluronic acid to lubricate the joints. My back has been a mess since I was 30 and I had a fall 20 years ago where I tore my rotator cuff. The tendon was cut 90% but I never really got treatment, I didn't even miss a day of work. I finally got it fixed this spring. I still do small jobs and build millwork but nothing to heavy of schedule intensive.

The good news. 
When I was told I needed knee replacement and would have to stop working on big jobsites 3 years ago I didn't just roll over and quit. I got out my old mountain bike and started riding. I now ride a road bike most of the time, I average 175 miles a week but in the summer that can be a single day and the weekly tally is much higher. 

I was in a study at the university for arthritis in the knee and strength where they measured the potential strength of my quads by stimulating the muscle by electric shocks then measuring how much force I could generate through the joint. I was able to get 98% of my potential strength through the joint which is what you'd expect from a trained athlete. Two years earlier I would have been on the couch for days with ice packs to get the swelling down.

They did surgery on my shoulder last March and I am finally just able to do 15 push ups. It was a long rehab but 100% success.

Hard work kept me looking like I was in good shape and gave me pretty good cardio health but work tears your body down. Exercise builds it up. You have to stay in shape to keep the joints healthy. I'll tell you at 49 I felt like I was 70 years old. Now at 52 I feel like I'm 30 (except on those cold winter days after shovelling out my driveway where the joints ache and I feel like I'm 80)


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

katoman---I had the privilege of training under three of the finest craftsmen that I've ever met.

My first boss (I was 19 at the time) said,"I know you aren't getting paid enough for what you will be doing,However you will leave here knowing how to frame. I will tell you what to do--If you mess it up,I'll tell you what you did wrong--how to do it right---then you will do it over. "

He was good for his word---I was made helper for the only real carpenter on the crew---Never an angry word on that site---Every one there was learning from the best teacher I have ever worked for.

That was 37 years ago---I've trained a few----I always tried to be as patient as my first boss---

I'm nearing retirement now,I'm as proud of the workers that I've trained as any of the places that I've built.---Mike--


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

katoman said:


> This started in the General forum, but I want to ask this directly to carpenters.
> 
> How many have their C 0f Q ? This is the benchmark. Even if you did not serve an apprenticeship, you can still write your exams.
> 
> ...


really. so at 16 if i study i can be certified:w00t:hmmm


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## dave_k (Sep 28, 2010)

This is post # 15 at post 16 I can post url's


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