# pricing questions not allowed?



## ACRbuilder (Jun 30, 2010)

I can certainly understand the complications of asking for pricing help from this thread. But what I cant understand is that this forum is here to help, educate, inform etc. people in the business. Every now and again a job arises that you may have never done before or havent done in years and need advice on how to bid it without being unprofitable. Understanding that only you know your overhead and what it takes to maintain profitability, but it would be nice to be able to verify your not the elephant in the room when it comes times to submit your bid. I joined this forum because although I am successful and busy, I am younger and cannot teach myself the things that come with the years of experience alot of you have. Something just seems off about that policy.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

If you can't bid it, you shouldn't build it. It is really that simple. Getting pricing info from random people on a forum is truly a bad idea. As many have stated before, It depends on many factors. My prices are not your prices.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

The issues on pricing, especially going rate, have many variables in them. Everyone has their own numbers for what they want out of a job. It's not so much that no one wants to help, it's the replies will be of no help. You know what your hourly, production, per ft etc rates are. Carefully review them and apply them to your deck job.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

It is the policy of the forum to stop any and all direct pricing questions that are asked. Unless someone has the exact same setup and lives in your county it will be improbably that any pricing answers will be of any help.

You need to know your business, how much it costs to operate it, how much profit you need to make and how fast it will take to accomplish the task. If you don't know these answers, how can you expect a complete stranger to know them.

All pricing threads will be closed.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

ACRbuilder said:


> Something just seems off about that policy.


Well I can tell you that after years of this website attempting to allow those type of questions, it *doesn't *work. Did you bother to read the suggested thread? Part of being a contractor is to also be a business person. Just because you can do one doesn't mean you can do the other.

What people are trying to teach you is that NO ONE can tell you what to charge. NO ONE. What else you're not getting is that to run a business takes more than registering for a website and asking random people on the internet for free advice on what to charge.

S-E-R-I-O-U-S-L-Y, the best advice you can get is to figure out your operating costs, profit necessary and to formula your _own_ pricing. If you're in business years from now, you'll be thankful of the advice you're getting today.

:thumbsup:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I think the largest problem people have who post questions like this is knowing how long it takes to do a project. This problem can't be solved by anybody.

The competition is fierce nowadays and contractors are now dipping into these hours and pushing hard. Many are guessing and just rolling the dice.

I don't care about cost, I really don't......In the end it doesn't matter because your price per hour that you bill is going to max out at a certain point and your left with the balance......If there is any.

So it comes down to guessing the estimated time, materials etc, and what the maximum you can charge per hour. It's gets a little more complex of course but sweating out the details is kinda pointless sometimes.

Given the above your the only one who can guess the time and your the only one who knows what your market will bare.

Mike


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

If I were to respond to a pricing question ("How much to wire a 2800 ft² house?"), then I would also have to post all my current & recent business costs. And I can gaurantee that *my* costs won't be anywhere similar to the *OP*s costs. So what would the point be?


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

480sparky said:


> If I were to respond to a pricing question ("How much to wire a 2800 ft² house?"), then I would also have to post all my current & recent business costs. And I can gaurantee that *my* costs won't be anywhere similar to the *OP*s costs. So what would the point be?


Who cares what the costs are, you still bill out at a max market price. If your costs are less then you just make more money. 

All of my competition within a 100 square miles charge the same for a water heater. My costs are less then many of them.....that just means I make more because I'm not going to lower my price.

I agree with not talking about pricing questions on the forum, I'm just saying in general knowing costs are pretty pointless if everybody is charging a similar rate.

On a 2,800 sf ft house I know is 5 minutes what I'm going to charge as a base rate without fixtures of course. And guess what, every other plumber in my area will be within 300 bucks of each other.

Mike


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## Anderson (Sep 7, 2009)

You are worried that you are leaving money on the table, due to the fact that you do not know what the market will bear. Every single guy on here when they submit a bid is worried about leaving money on the table. However what the good guys understand is that there bid is enough to cover there costs and allow for some mark up. We all wish we had a crystal ball that would say this customer will pay $X for this job. 
This not being possible we try to do the best we can at figuring out the mark up we can get. Only time will teach you this. 
You said that you are busy so try and raise you prices, don't recall who said it but if you are getting all the jobs you bid then you are to cheap.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Anderson said:


> You are worried that you are leaving money on the table, due to the fact that you do not know what the market will bear. Every single guy on here when they submit a bid is worried about leaving money on the table. However what the good guys understand is that there bid is enough to cover there costs and allow for some mark up. We all wish we had a crystal ball that would say this customer will pay $X for this job.
> This not being possible we try to do the best we can at figuring out the mark up we can get. Only time will teach you this.
> You said that you are busy so try and raise you prices, don't recall who said it but if you are getting all the jobs you bid then you are to cheap.


I say this with a lot of respect. People who get most of the jobs can be too cheap, you are right....but that doesn't always mean that. Marketing drives customers depending on the conditions. In manufacturing, retail, and just about every other industry "being the cheap guy" and "gaining market share is the goal".

It's been this way since the dawn of civilization. I get just about every job that comes my way and I make very good money. They customers that go with me do so because they fell more comfortable with me than my competition.......we are all withing pennies of each other.

When someone looses money the conversation is always "crap did I bid that one wrong" 9 out of 10 times what they underestimated was not cost it was hours to complete the job.

My dad built a 100 x 52' outbuilding. 5 people bid it all within 2,000 dollars of each other. My Dad went with the higher price guy because he really got along with him well and liked his professionalism. The guy who built it is the busiest guy in the area and does very well for himself. Everybody has him build buildings like this........he is also the best marketer around.

Mike


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> .............All of my competition* within a 100 square miles* ........ every other plumber *in my area* will be within 300 bucks of each other........


And that's why pricing question on a *national forum *don't work. :whistling

Do you think licensing & permits are the same price all over? Insurance rates? Vehicle costs?


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## davy crockett (Dec 19, 2007)

I now offer Bidopinion,,just PM me the info for your job and what you will bid, send me $49.99 via Paypal and I will tell you whether I thinks you too high,too low or jes right.:thumbsup:all within a week. No returns, no refunds, all sales final. must be legal resident of U.S.,


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

480sparky said:


> And that's why pricing question on a *national forum *don't work. :whistling
> 
> Do you think licensing & permits are the same price all over? Insurance rates? Vehicle costs?


Your right, I tried to say that. I was just pointing out certain things. Licensing and permits can be calculated pretty quick.

Vehicle costs are different and that's why some will make more money than others but most are all still billing out at the same rate whether they own a new Ford or an old Chevy.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

davy crockett said:


> I now offer Bidopinion,,just PM me the info for your job and what you will bid, send me $49.99 via Paypal and I will tell you whether I thinks you too high,too low or jes right.:thumbsup:all within a week. No returns, no refunds,  all sales final. must be legal resident of U.S.,


Are batteries included? :jester:


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## SuperiorHIP (Aug 15, 2010)

I understand and agree with not talking pricing. General contractors expect to see a certain price range from each trade in their area, it would be interesting to see how prices varies from state to state/coast to coast. Would not help anyone with anything but it would be interesting.


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

I've known many inexperienced contractors who have just thrown numbers out there, got the job, and made obscene amounts of money, either because they were refered or they were locked in to some big outfit. That doesn't happen much anymore I'm sure, you have to be competetive as people will surely get pricing from other contractors. It pays to be specific then in your bid so that you are comparing the same scope because if the work done is the same the prices tend to be close. On some jobs I can beat the big houses by up to 30% but this is all their overhead so basically our margins are the same On the other hand some specialty contractors can way undercut me because their margins are tight and they have their craft down to a science. I'll give you an example: years ago I saw a dryall contractor advertise $0.70 per sq ft finished, that's FINISHED at the time I don't know if I would have wanted to hang it for that. It was a mind blower how they could do it. You just have to really get yourself into it. Submit what you are comfortable with and make your offer stand out. Many times the good jobs aren't decided on price but on comfort, trust, and reliability


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Irishslave said:


> I've known many inexperienced contractors who have just thrown numbers out there, got the job, and made obscene amounts of money, either because they were refered or they were locked in to some big outfit. That doesn't happen much anymore I'm sure, you have to be competetive as people will surely get pricing from other contractors. It pays to be specific then in your bid so that you are comparing the same scope because if the work done is the same the prices tend to be close. On some jobs I can beat the big houses by up to 30% but this is all their overhead so basically our margins are the same On the other hand some specialty contractors can way undercut me because their margins are tight and they have their craft down to a science. I'll give you an example: years ago I saw a dryall contractor advertise $0.70 per sq ft finished, that's FINISHED at the time I don't know if I would have wanted to hang it for that. It was a mind blower how they could do it. You just have to really get yourself into it. Submit what you are comfortable with and make your offer stand out. Many times the good jobs aren't decided on price but on comfort, trust, and reliability


You make some really good points here. I think the guy that's going after .70 a foot shouldn't be competition though. That's what marketing is for, I really belive positioning yourself through marketing is more important than price for you remodelers. Great marketing is a game changer.

Mike


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I should also add however marketing is more important now than it was when I was younger from the standpoint of productivity as well.

When I was young I would run on the jobsite and pound houses out like nothing. Now that I'm older I'm a lot slower and can't keep up with the 20 year olds. I have to market myself to command a higher price. You get smarter when you have experience and do more work with less movements but still, it's hard to beat a young guy that has a boss who makes them run.

Mike


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> it's hard to beat a young guy that has a boss who makes them run.
> 
> Mike


Unless the boss is a moron and has him running in circles :shifty:


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> You make some really good points here. I think the guy that's going after .70 a foot shouldn't be competition though. That's what marketing is for, I really belive positioning yourself through marketing is more important than price for you remodelers. Great marketing is a game changer.
> 
> Mike


 I agree with that, the marketing is everything when it comes to getting the right kind of customers. Referals from people that have seen your work always gives you a little edge too. Like I said trust goes a long way


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Irishslave said:


> I agree with that, the marketing is everything when it comes to getting the right kind of customers. Referals from people that have seen your work always gives you a little edge too. Like I said trust goes a long way


If you think about it we don't have a choice.:laughing:

Sooner or later you can only cut margins so far, the only think left is to do better marketing than the competition. And thus starts the vicious cycle of construction................


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## Irishslave (Jun 20, 2010)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> If you think about it we don't have a choice.:laughing:
> 
> Sooner or later you can only cut margins so far, the only think left is to do better marketing than the competition. And thus starts the vicious cycle of construction................


 Amen, and there is lots of competition both professional and hack, so to win you have to project what all people admire: confidence and trust


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## claymation (Aug 11, 2010)

Seems to me the "no pricing talk" policy NOT necessary. If you don't want to discuss pricing, then don't. Move on to another thread. If you want to discuss it, discuss it. You "anti-pricing talk" guys are dictatorial. There is obviously another camp that feels differently, however wrong or misguided you seem to feel they are.


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## festerized (May 19, 2007)

If mods allowed price talking we would see a larger volume DIY and HO’s coming this site. Openly talking pricing could hurt you in the long run too. This site ranks high with back links and would show up organically on Google.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Clay. This is the way it is. We have gone through this many times, with a few that feel as you do. You will not change our minds. If you don't like the way this site is moderated then you also have a choice. Please do not pursue this any further.


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## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

On the flip side, what if someone posted their "going rate" that was some number they pulled out of the air. 
Does this really help you? .........at all?:no:

I agree with all the Mods here.:thumbsup:


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## fast fred (Sep 26, 2008)

keep it like the military


don't ask don't tell


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

claymation said:


> Seems to me the "no pricing talk" policy NOT necessary.


Maybe you should start your own forum, allow pricing questions and then come back and tell us we were wrong :thumbsup:

After 7 years of existence, things are fine-tuned to what they are for reasons. A national forum discussing pricing across multiple countries _does not work_. How _you _can know better is interesting.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

There is no need to ask about pricing, I think if someone hasn't done a job in a while or it's new to them, then they can ask specifics on how to maybe do the job or how much waste they might have etc. But it really doesn't make any sense as even in NJ, from north, central, to south, the prices all change from contractor to contractor. Heck, my specific county is the most most expensive to live in the state, 30 minutes from here guys charge less. So it's really a detriment to anyone who gets pricing from someone on here. In order for there to be pricing threads, the site would have to have regional sections in one area of the thread, one for each state. Then possibly, just possibly there could be local guys who can discuss their local pricing without it being national. I think the better idea is to learn how to bid a job and know your costs, add them all up and some markup for profit/mistakes etc. and you have yourself your price. I never let anyone else dictate to me what to charge, if someone tells me they can do the job or this much, I say, good for you, and I bet the quality won't be the same.
If you can't bid, you shouldn't be in the business, go be an employee so you don't have these problems.


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## IanS (Sep 18, 2009)

I see both sides of this issue. I do offer some pricing information on my website for my customers and for my competition / fellow trades. I want them to increase their rates to mine or higher. But the hacks don't read anyway so why bother? If they want to be slaves then let them. 
Another guy told me he charges a little less than me so he will always get the job. Honestly I don't care.
I sometimes ask the customer what they ended up paying or what other bids were. Slowly you will find the answers you need. Sometimes I am high, sometimes low. Low gets fixed immediately.:sad:
Find your market, charge accordingly and live comfortably.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

You can talk pricing in this forum all you want, it's just that it hast to be about how you get there. Do discuss actual numbers of money is foolish and borderline childish. It certainly isn't what business people do on a forum.

We can and should talk about; How to figure out cost, methods of production, and forumulas to arrive at a number. Everything else is pointless.

Mike


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

There is an existing thread on _how_ to come up with a price.It is _very _helpful.
Someone coming here and in their first post asking how much to charge for a job they are trying to land is silly and the reason why has been explained ad nauseum.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

tree fiddy:clap:


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

About once a day, I'm tempted to start a thread...

"How much should I charge to paint a house?"

No specifics...just the question.

But I know it'd just get deleted before I could have any fun at all.

mods here are on top of things...all the time!


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

How much would it cost you to have a HO come on here to find these pricing threads and tell you they found pricing on a contractor forum and you are to high.


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## Splinter (Apr 5, 2005)

Apgar said:


> There is no need to ask about pricing, I think if someone hasn't done a job in a while or it's new to them, then they can ask specifics on how to maybe do the job or how much waste they might have etc.


I agree with Apgar here.... However the "how long" and "how is this done" questions are usually pounced on also with the "If you're not experienced enough, then you shouldnt be doing it" response, and the thread dies a miserable death.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

claymation said:


> Seems to me the "no pricing talk" policy NOT necessary. If you don't want to discuss pricing, then don't. Move on to another thread. If you want to discuss it, discuss it. You "anti-pricing talk" guys are dictatorial. There is obviously another camp that feels differently, however wrong or misguided you seem to feel they are.










​


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> All of my competition within a 100 square miles charge the same for a water heater. My costs are less then many of them.....that just means I make more because I'm not going to lower my price.
> 
> I agree with not talking about pricing questions on the forum, I'm just saying in general knowing costs are pretty pointless if everybody is charging a similar rate.
> 
> ...


This whole situation is clearly indirect price fixing, and quite possibly semi-direct price fixing governed by social contract or gentleman's agreement. 

While there might be valid reasons for not allowing discussions of price, such as to prevent consumers from making dumb assumptions like "a 3,000 sqft flat house in Spokane, WA costed $***, so therefore, a two story house in Los Angeles CA that's 3,000 sq ft must cost the same".

If hiding prices to restrict competition is one of the reasons you feel it shouldn't be allowed, then I **STRONGLY** disagree. Price Fixing. :furious::furious:



IanS said:


> I see both sides of this issue. I do offer some pricing information on my website for my customers and for my competition / fellow trades. *I want them to increase their rates to mine or higher*.* But the hacks don't read anyway so why bother? If they want to be slaves then let them. *
> Another guy told me he charges a little less than me so he will always get the job. Honestly I don't care.
> I sometimes ask the customer what they ended up paying or what other bids were. Slowly you will find the answers you need. Sometimes I am high, sometimes low. Low gets fixed immediately.:sad:
> Find your market, charge accordingly and live comfortably.


Essentially, what you're trying to accomplish is anti-competitive practice. Just short of collusion, which I wouldn't be surprised if it was happening. If competitors hang out at bars and talk about keeping a price level, implied or direct, its price fixing. hard to prove, yet highly unethical nonetheles.

I dislike hacks, but price fixing is just as wrong. There are some contractors who do not mark up parts at all and clearly break down parts/labor. I think those contractors as well as hacks are a necessity to break price fixing.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I'm not sure how you got price fixing out of this, that has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about.:blink:

Most contractors are at similar prices with the competition. It's not as if one competitor is 1/2 as much as me and another contractor is double. We all pretty much compete on the same playing field, marketing is the only real difference besides some of the smaller service type issues.

It's worth noting for those who want to discuss actual pricing numbers that the only real way of knowing is experience. Business owners take risk, and sometimes we lose because of little experience. Once you lose money because of poor bidding etc it makes you pretty darn smart pretty darn quick.

Mike


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> I'm not sure how you got price fixing out of this, that has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about.:blink:
> 
> Most contractors are at similar prices with the competition. It's not as if one competitor is 1/2 as much as me and another contractor is double. We all pretty much compete on the same playing field, marketing is the only real difference besides some of the smaller service type issues.
> 
> ...


I'm just saying I disagree with disallowing discussion of pricing to hide true cost and markup to prevent the market from becoming more competitive.


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