# Order of installing tile?



## daxsmith (May 17, 2015)

Hi Guys,

I have a question on the order in which I lay my tile in my shower. 

I have a corner seat in the shower. I was considering using a ledger board and starting with the second row of tiles and then come back later and do the tile on the base (floor) and the remaining bottom row on the walls.

But I'm concerned that if I start with the second course of tile and work my way up each side of the corner seat until I get to the top of the seat, that things could be off and not line up correctly when the two sides of the tile (each side of the seat) meet. 

Alternatively, if I start my first course (about 3 rows up instead of 1 row up) about even with the top of the seat, then I could run a full row corner to corner and spanning where the seat sits. But then I would then have to work my way down from that row along each side of the seat until I get down to the first or second row from the shower base.

Do you start at the first row and go up then go across the seat and then work your way down to the first row on the opposite side of the seat?

What's the best way to go about this to insure everything lines up properly when you have a corner seat?


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## RiverBG (Jun 1, 2014)

I always use a laser. floor goes in first then walls starting at the bottom.


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## RiverBG (Jun 1, 2014)

Also take your time with the layout. 
It's the most important part.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

I always start with a ledger, then come back for the bottom row of tile. Make sure to seal the screw holes before you tile where the ledger was.


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## daxsmith (May 17, 2015)

Thanks guys. I'm not sure that I heard suggestions on how to deal with the seat in the corner. Do you just start tiling as if the seat wasn't there and count on all the shower wall tiles matching up?


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

daxsmith said:


> Thanks guys. I'm not sure that I heard suggestions on how to deal with the seat in the corner. Do you just start tiling as if the seat wasn't there and count on all the shower wall tiles matching up?



Yes


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

Ledger that is set to a laser to lay the second course. If needed, run a level pencil line each way from the top of the seat. Measure up from the tiles to the line as you go up if you're worried about not meeting up at the top.

Remove ledger and fill holes, lay floor, finish with the bottom course of wall tile.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> Ledger that is set to a laser to lay the second course. If needed, run a level pencil line each way from the top of the seat. Measure up from the tiles to the line as you go up if you're worried about not meeting up at the top.
> 
> Remove ledger and fill holes, lay floor, finish with the bottom course of wall tile.


Bingo


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## daxsmith (May 17, 2015)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> Ledger that is set to a laser to lay the second course. If needed, run a level pencil line each way from the top of the seat. Measure up from the tiles to the line as you go up if you're worried about not meeting up at the top.
> 
> Remove ledger and fill holes, lay floor, finish with the bottom course of wall tile.


That worked well. I used a rotary laser to set the ledger boards and split the laser line down the center so they were really level. The tile around the seat all matched up perfectly.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Sometimes it's also just dumb luck for things to line up. I often spend at least half a day on layout in a shower trying to think of every angle and plane change. More times than not, there is some element that I miss. 9 times out of 10 it works out perfectly.


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## daxsmith (May 17, 2015)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Sometimes it's also just dumb luck for things to line up. I often spend at least half a day on layout in a shower trying to think of every angle and plane change. More times than not, there is some element that I miss. 9 times out of 10 it works out perfectly.


I know what you mean about dumb luck. 

I spent half a day on the layout as well. I can't always count on dumb luck! LOL.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Be sure to come back and ask us how to do the corners.
Then when through with that, come back and ask us how to grout it.

I think the contractors here have taken a homeowner and helped him do a complete shower, step by step, answering every question.

ah yes, a 'contractor' board, lol.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CO762 said:


> Be sure to come back and ask us how to do the corners.
> Then when through with that, come back and ask us how to grout it.
> 
> I think the contractors here have taken a homeowner and helped him do a complete shower, step by step, answering every question.
> ...


I looked back and many new contractors and tile setters have asked similar question. In fact Angus often lays the pan after the walls. So there is more than one way to do it. For a long time I didn't use a ledger and then asked for a better way. 

And I'm not a HO.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I looked back and many new contractors and tile setters have asked similar question.


This account has done nothing but start threads asking "how-to" questions for his shower in his home. He's not a contractor. Granted, this seems to be a carpentry type or handyman type board that's always been very light on full time tile/stone contractors, present or past. Thus the same simple HO/DIY type questions in the tile section or "what kind of sprayer should I buy?" in the painting section.

A while ago I posted a pic of job I was doing as a joke. The drain was sitting about a foot up from the pan and I didn't know how to deal with it, so asked things like what kind of fence post concrete I should use to build up to that point from the pan, etc. At first it was funny, but a lot of the non-tile people were chiming in here with advice on what to do, things to try, how best to deal with it. They really had no clue as to what was going on, but that didn't stop them from offering 'advice'. It turned out it was hilarious, but not in the manner I thought it would be when I posted it. 

Such is the nature of the beast. I'll post a liquid nails tiling post next week.....


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CO762 said:


> This account has done nothing but start threads asking "how-to" questions for his shower in his home. He's not a contractor. Granted, this seems to be a carpentry type or handyman type board that's always been very light on full time tile/stone contractors, present or past. Thus the same simple HO/DIY type questions in the tile section or "what kind of sprayer should I buy?" in the painting section.
> 
> A while ago I posted a pic of job I was doing as a joke. The drain was sitting about a foot up from the pan and I didn't know how to deal with it, so asked things like what kind of fence post concrete I should use to build up to that point from the pan, etc. At first it was funny, but a lot of the non-tile people were chiming in here with advice on what to do, things to try, how best to deal with it. They really had no clue as to what was going on, but that didn't stop them from offering 'advice'. It turned out it was hilarious, but not in the manner I thought it would be when I posted it.
> 
> Such is the nature of the beast. I'll post a liquid nails tiling post next week.....


Don't know what's worse helping someone or creating threads to be a joke to yourself. Yeah, you right, your way is so much better.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

CO762 said:


> Be sure to come back and ask us how to do the corners.
> Then when through with that, come back and ask us how to grout it.
> 
> I think the contractors here have taken a homeowner and helped him do a complete shower, step by step, answering every question.
> ...


Don't know if he's an HO or not but there's been plenty of questions asked by "contractors" that I consider the answer to be common sense/common knowledge.

His problem was he didn't know how to get the tiles at the same level on both sides of the shower seat without a laser level. Is that common sense/common knowledge? I don't know if that makes him an HO because I've seen much worse questions asked by "contractors".

As for a ledger board, I know contractors that don't even know what it is.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

avenge said:


> His problem was he didn't know how to...


On this thread. He's got i think two other threads and one in the remod section asking "how do i...?" seemingly for each phase of the shower in his home. I can understand the different ways of doing things--I very rarely use a ledger--but with his only posts here being what they are, it's like someone going into the framing section and posting threads for each step of "how do I frame...?" and that's all the posts he has.

I'm pretty hard on non professionals and professional hacks due to the damage they do...for the person down the road, the person that will buy that home. If they do a sh*tty trim job, drywall, etc. no problem, it looks ugly but fixable. If their shower leaks or framing fails or someone gets zapped or.... that's something else. Or they just want a minor change but then find out all the substandard hackery/criminal acts that have been done. That's when innocent people's bank accounts get drained and/or they live in a failing place.
I've become a firm believer that the trades need to have many more lawsuits.

On a bright note, something strange happened as over the last week I've wanted to pick up some more unmodified thinset, but all I could find was ditraset, mapei uncoupling thinset, and custom's uncoupling thinset. I'm not using ditra and don't have to uncouple anything, but I'm stuck using these. Be interesting to see what custom's brew is like as I've not tried that before. 



> As for a ledger board, I know contractors that don't even know what it is.


It's a cleat, dag nabbit.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Don't know what's worse helping someone or creating threads to be a joke to yourself.


It should have been a joke to a lot of people, but you'd be amazed at all the serious advice I was offered. It got bad enough I even mentioned the use of fencepost mix to ramp _up_ the slope to the drain...about a foot above the pan. Tell me that's not funny.


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## daxsmith (May 17, 2015)

CO762 said:


> On this thread. He's got i think two other threads and one in the remod section asking "how do i...?" seemingly for each phase of the shower in his home. I can understand the different ways of doing things--I very rarely use a ledger--but with his only posts here being what they are, it's like someone going into the framing section and posting threads for each step of "how do I frame...?" and that's all the posts he has.
> 
> I'm pretty hard on non professionals and professional hacks due to the damage they do...for the person down the road, the person that will buy that home. If they do a sh*tty trim job, drywall, etc. no problem, it looks ugly but fixable. If their shower leaks or framing fails or someone gets zapped or.... that's something else. Or they just want a minor change but then find out all the substandard hackery/criminal acts that have been done. That's when innocent people's bank accounts get drained and/or they live in a failing place.
> I've become a firm believer that the trades need to have many more lawsuits.
> ...



I don't mean this as an insult but I've noticed you keep making erroneous assumptions and it seems to happen most of the time when you don't understand something. I think the not understanding frustrates you which is why you follow me around the forum busting my balls. 

You don't know me but I'm extremely intelligent. I'm the sort of person who educates myself and tries to develop a level of expertise before I tackle anything. Therefore I read a ton, research, ask questions, etc. Been that way all my life. When I ask a question don't assume I don't know the answer. Sometimes I ask a question to confirm a hypothesis or because I suspect there might be a trick to doing something that someone might share that makes a job easier. I'll wager some people will read the discussion about using bender boards to hold a ledger in place without using screws through your water proofing membrane and they will learn a new trick. Every discussion here can lead to something that can help all of us. 

The other thing you don't know is I invented discussion forums on the Internet. I know you won't believe me but its absolutely true. The first "forums" were called BBS's which was a hold over from the dial-up days before the world wide web came about. I hated that term of BBS. So I renamed my forum from BBS to "forum" which was a term originally used by Compuserve. Thus, forums on the internet were born. Yes, I know wiki credits someone else but its not important enough to me to dispute it. Regardless, my point is that I use forums for every aspect of my life so if I'm a little "chatty" on the forum its because I have an affinity for using forums. 

So maybe you might consider lightening up now that you know something of me. I can guarantee you that you can learn some things from me, too. You admitted to not being open to using a foam seat in a shower but if you think about it its a material that is waterproof, doesn't expand/contract and can be used without penetrating the waterproofing membrane. So its far superior to the old school way of building a seat out of treated wood and backer board. Concrete blocks is an alternative but adds weight as well so all things need to be considered.

By the way, if you're looking for a superior unmodified thinset try the laticrete 317 if you haven't used it before. Pot life is 2 hours but I find it doesn't last that long so mixing small batches helps.


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## daxsmith (May 17, 2015)

TNTSERVICES said:


> And I'm not a HO.


 "HO" could be read two ways. Everyone loves a HO.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CO762 said:


> It should have been a joke to a lot of people, but you'd be amazed at all the serious advice I was offered. It got bad enough I even mentioned the use of fencepost mix to ramp _up_ the slope to the drain...about a foot above the pan. Tell me that's not funny.


I don't think it funny at all eating people's time and playing games. I grew out of that back in high school. But I guess others have a complex and just need the ego boost.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

daxsmith said:


> I suspect there might be a trick to doing something that someone might share that makes a job easier.


You keep asking "how to...?" rather than a tip to make something easier for something you already should know how to do.

Tip: Know and have experience in the trade before doing the trade by yourself. If not, be honest and tell future owners that you did the shower yourself and didn't know how to do it, but were figuring it out as you did it and asking people on the internet how to do it. Be even better to provide them with some sort of lifetime warranty--as comes with Chloraloy when installed correctly--in case the pan that you think may be damaged leaks or has other issues. Those can be pretty expensive fixes.



> [foam seat] in a shower but if you think about it its a material that is waterproof, doesn't expand/contract and can be used without penetrating the waterproofing membrane. So its far superior to the old school way of building a seat


You have no idea what you're talking about....but I know, you read it on the internet. But coming from a person stuck in month two of building his first shower.....



> By the way, if you're looking for a superior unmodified thinset try the laticrete 317 if you haven't used it before. Pot life is 2 hours but I find it doesn't last that long so mixing small batches helps.


No one sells laticrete around where I live, but the whole idea of 'pot life' has always been amusing to me. Who on earth could be setting and be so slow they have to pull from the same bucket for two hours?

I use a bunch of different types of thinset from different manufacturers. Like I said, I have three different ones now and as long as it's not the bottom shelf one, there's not a lot of difference if you stay in the intended use for them. Like you said, this is "not rocket science"...though the internet may lead one to think otherwise....


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I don't think it funny at all eating people's time and playing games.


For someone that seems to spend quite a bit of time arguing with anyone and everyone about, well, pretty much nothing, that carries a lot of weight.

Get ready as if dax ever gets the tile figured out, he'll start a "how do I? thread about grouting his shower.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CO762 said:


> For someone that seems to spend quite a bit of time arguing with anyone and everyone about, well, pretty much nothing, that carries a lot of weight.
> 
> Get ready as if dax ever gets the tile figured out, he'll start a "how do I? thread about grouting his shower.


At least I actually believe in what I post. I don't play games and start bogus treads.

I also don't argue about anything and everything. Most of my posts are just informative neutral posts. But on occasion I have been now to beat a dead horse.

But there's a reason I've been nominated for COTM and then COTQ. There's a reason that I get calls and PMs from guys in here pretty much every week because they know I'm a straight shooter that doesn't play games. There's a reason I have exchanged numbers with some of the best contractors in here and help each other out on a regular bases.

So go ahead and try to win this by pointing to me, but its you who need to wise up and stop wasting people's time by creating phony threads and calling others HOs and hacks, unless that's the only way you have any self worth.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CO762 said:


> You keep asking "how to...?" rather than a tip to make something easier for something you already should know how to do.
> 
> Tip: Know and have experience in the trade before doing the trade by yourself. If not, be honest and tell future owners that you did the shower yourself and didn't know how to do it, but were figuring it out as you did it and asking people on the internet how to do it. Be even better to provide them with some sort of lifetime warranty--as comes with Chloraloy when installed correctly--in case the pan that you think may be damaged leaks or has other issues. Those can be pretty expensive fixes.
> 
> ...


I think it's time someone took a time out from CT. It's obvious you are burned out.


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## daxsmith (May 17, 2015)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I think it's time someone took a time out from CT. It's obvious you are burned out.


Agreed....someone needs a vacation.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

daxsmith said:


> I don't mean this as an insult but I've noticed you keep making erroneous assumptions and it seems to happen most of the time when you don't understand something. I think the not understanding frustrates you which is why you follow me around the forum busting my balls.
> 
> You don't know me but I'm extremely intelligent. I'm the sort of person who educates myself and tries to develop a level of expertise before I tackle anything. Therefore I read a ton, research, ask questions, etc. Been that way all my life. When I ask a question don't assume I don't know the answer. Sometimes I ask a question to confirm a hypothesis or because I suspect there might be a trick to doing something that someone might share that makes a job easier. I'll wager some people will read the discussion about using bender boards to hold a ledger in place without using screws through your water proofing membrane and they will learn a new trick. Every discussion here can lead to something that can help all of us.
> 
> ...





So you are or are not a contractor?


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I don't play games and start bogus treads.


You must be real fun to be around. I joke, laugh and have fun a lot of the time.



> But there's a reason I've been nominated for COTM and then COTQ.


prolly not for your storytelling or jokes. Clearly we are different. With the dax account, there are too many things that don't make sense for me. He reframed a closet into a bathroom but couldn't do a bench/seat? If his waterproofing worked for his walls, it'd work for his half wall (seat). Someone else "poured" his "masonry pan", he didn't flood test it, even after he thinks he damaged it. And as said, the rest of his threads are almost a step by step, "how do I?" going over the process of putting tile in a bathroom. Home depot sells a book that will tell him that, complete with pictures. And there's probably a bunch of videos online that will also cover those. So to me, he's not asking for help in something he usually does, but is stuck on. He's getting step by step guidance doing something he's never done before.
Fine. To me that's a DIY section threads. If he and/or others post them here, don't expect me to jump in and help him do his whole project. You can do that.



> So go ahead and try to win this...


Didn't know we were in some sort of competition. I don't recall calling anyone here HOs (might have dax, but don't think so) or hacks. There are a variety of reasons for bad/failing workmanship and being a highly skilled person that's just burned out is one of them, all the way to complete ignorance and everything between, so I don't call individuals hacks. IIRC what I did say is this section has always been light on full time tile people. That just means what it means.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I joke laugh and have fun, just ask Ron.

What I try not to do is be inconsistent. You come down on what you thought was a HO and those of us who tried to help as if you are superior than all around you. Then you ain't to wasting people's time with a bogus thread so that you could have a laugh.

If you don't like the direction the forum is going leave. But stop acting as if your chit don't stink.


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## RiverBG (Jun 1, 2014)

I get paid to set tile, nuff said


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## RiverBG (Jun 1, 2014)

I have a tile saw


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## RiverBG (Jun 1, 2014)

And a snapper


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## daxsmith (May 17, 2015)

CO762 said:


> He reframed a closet into a bathroom but couldn't do a bench/seat? If his waterproofing worked for his walls, it'd work for his half wall (seat). Someone else "poured" his "masonry pan", he didn't flood test it, even after he thinks he damaged it.


I think you need remedial reading lessons, my friend.

I absolutely could do a bench seat. The point I was making is that a foam seat is a superior option to a wood framed bench seat. You need to attach a wood seat, covered with backer board, to the walls using screws.
I opted to go with a kerdi membrane that has no penetrations anywhere and using a foam seat attached via thinset. It was done because its bulletproof in terms of waterproofing. Additionally, foam doesn't expand or contract and thus is a more reliable substrate.

I described much of that in earlier discussion but you said something to the affect that you don't understand a lot of what I say. Well, that's fine but then please stop making all the assumptions because they are wrong.

Where in the hell did "someone else poured his masonry pan" come from? Seriously...do you just make things up as you like? I poured the mud pan. I did not "think I damaged it". I said I wanted to flood test it before tiling just to make sure nothing happened to the pan when I was working. And yes, I did flood test it and no it didn't leak.

Obviously this is my first shower build. Doesn't mean I haven't spent years building other things. You'll note, however, that I jumped into shower building near the top. Installing Kerdi is much harder and more costly than painting on redgard but of the two which is better? I happen to think the Kerdi is. 

You can bust on me all you like but I will put my craftsmanship up against yours any day of the week.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

mrcharles said:


> So you are or are not a contractor?


as you can see, he ignored your question. Furthest I got was him telling me how smart he is and something about the internet a few decades ago and how he likes to hang out on computer forums and talk.

He's not a contractor, he's a ho/diy/hobbyist, as are most one post wonders. But on the bright side, he's a "one thread per step I need to know how to do" wonder.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What I try not to do is be inconsistent. You come down on what you thought was a HO and those of us who tried to help as if you are superior than all around you.


Don't know why you are having such an issue with this. He's not a contractor. He's done nothing but ask "how do I?" questions his whole short time here--but to be fair, he did read laticrete's datasheet for me to tell me what that pot life is. I forgot to thank him for that.



> If you don't like the direction the forum is going leave. But stop acting as if your chit don't stink.


As I've said, I spend very little time down here, but when I saw what this guy was doing--and ya'll encouraging him, sorry, but I'm going to post my thoughts here.
So Rob, this guy clearly doens't know what he's doing. He's cobbled together a shower that he doesn't know whether or not it'll leak, but he even said he thinks he damaged the liner--but didn't bother to check as, well, that's so not fun. He's chomping at the bit to piece together the rest of his masterpiece and slap the tile in place.

You want to buy this guys house Rob? I'm sure he'll point out the 'custom shower' off the master bedroom as a selling point. Want your daughter/mom to buy it?

Maybe I've fixed a lot more ho/handyman/diy/(should be a crime) work than you, but my ethics says I do a good, competent job that no one get's scr*wed over at a later date. A lot of people in the world don't think the same way as I do--or they just don't know, or don't care, or.....


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

RiverBG said:


> I have a tile saw


I have a compound miter saw and nail guns, but I'm not a cabinetmaker or trim carpenter. I've not done trimwork 8-10 hours a day, 5-6 days a week for ten plus years.

But I have done trim work in a few rooms sometimes. And I have built a few cabinets sometimes.....and I got paid for those times.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CO762 said:


> Don't know why you are having such an issue with this. He's not a contractor. He's done nothing but ask "how do I?" questions his whole short time here--but to be fair, he did read laticrete's datasheet for me to tell me what that pot life is. I forgot to thank him for that.
> 
> As I've said, I spend very little time down here, but when I saw what this guy was doing--and ya'll encouraging him, sorry, but I'm going to post my thoughts here.
> So Rob, this guy clearly doens't know what he's doing. He's cobbled together a shower that he doesn't know whether or not it'll leak, but he even said he thinks he damaged the liner--but didn't bother to check as, well, that's so not fun. He's chomping at the bit to piece together the rest of his masterpiece and slap the tile in place.
> ...


You got me. You are just too smart for me. Where would we ever be without you policing this forum. 

BTW I've turned closets into showers and have expanded bathrooms into closets.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

CO762 said:


> I have a compound miter saw and nail guns, but I'm not a cabinetmaker or trim carpenter. I've not done trimwork 8-10 hours a day, 5-6 days a week for ten plus years.
> 
> But I have done trim work in a few rooms sometimes. And I have built a few cabinets sometimes.....and I got paid for those times.


Hopefully you informed your customer that you hadn't done it that much. Did you tell the first sucker that it was your first one?


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## daxsmith (May 17, 2015)

CO762 said:


> He's not a contractor, he's a ho/diy/hobbyist, as are most one post wonders. But on the bright side, he's a "one thread per step I need to know how to do" wonder.


LOL. Right. So since in your book all contractors know everything about everything why don't we just shut the forum off and all go home? 

God forbid something like say, a young guy doing contracting, wants to learn some things from some of the older guys or discuss some new technology like leveling systems that might be useful to him in his job.

You're a real piece of work. You probably cop an attitude with your customers too which is why you spend so much time here rather than working. Probably don't have any customers.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> BTW I've turned closets into showers and have expanded bathrooms into closets.


That's not the point, but like you said, sometimes you get stuck on things. It seems like, as is sometimes the case, people want to show how smart they are and offer "this is how you do it" advice.
I'll type this in a different, easier to follow fashion:
He's never done this before.
He put in a pan.
He used a liner.
He didn't flood test it (must think he's using schluter, lol).
He thinks he may have damaged it.
He then did the walls, complete with one inch airspace/silicone trough.
Ran fabric down the walls.
Laminated on a foam blob to pan and walls to tile.
Now is starting to tile.
Once done with that, he'll start a "how do I grout this?" thread.
Then he'll stand back and admire his work and ya'll can congratulate yourselves for how smart you are and friendly you helped him through all of this, step by step work on something he's never done before.

Oh, has anyone though that gee, the pan may not be done right? Or it may be damaged? I know that's pretty boring and most of the time we professionals skip that step and go to directly to the glory of slapping up tile.


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