# Ice and Water shield, the whole roof?



## Jaymz_23

Nobody seems to agree on this subject lately.. Is there anything wrong with putting ice and water on the whole entire roof before shingling? As a posed to doing just one row on the bottom and up the gables etc. Some seem to think it's the best thing you could do, others say it's too much overkill. I'm not concerned about "overkill" or what have you, I want to know is something actually WRONG with installing ice and water on the whole roof?


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## SLSTech

Anything wrong with it - no
Is it the best thing - well opinions vary


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## Roofsafe

Be merciful, think of the poor guy who will blow his whole budget trying to tear that crap off. A friend of mine got a job and found the original "roofer" put I/W on half the roof from the face up, not only was the I/W stuck to the wood, it was stuck to the shingles as well, what a mess.


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## essrmo

Some manufacturers do reccomend I/W full coverage for extreme weather.


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## Kent Whitten

They do it quite frequently around here. I personally don't agree. Proper roof ventilation takes care of pretty much most ice dams. 

Roof to wall in high snow loads are different though.


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## FerrisHI

Its definitely above and beyond...but if the homeowner is going to pay for it so be it...but i would hate to be the next roofer in having to tear that thing off...


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## barry1219

I just did a 45sq and a 35sq roof project in the last month. We live in Hurricane country and I will not even consider 30# paper anymore for several reasons.

1) cost of I & W is about $32 more than paper for every 2 square. That is a small cost increase for superior protection in my book.
2)easier and faster to install than paper. No tin tabs and a million extra nails in the deck to hit when you shingle.
3) Insurance discounts for "secondary water barrier". This will easily offset the cost increase over paper. 
4) It sends a message to all the other roofers that when we do a roof it is done the right way and the inspectors tell us that.
If you do metal or tile around here it is required but for shingles 30# is code. We feel it is the way code will be so let us be ahead of the curve.

My guys love it..bottom line and they feel better knowing that if for some reason a hurricane comes they won't be running around throwing blue tarps on our roofs...but instead fixing the other guys.


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## red_cedar

> It sends a message to all the other roofers that when we do a roof it is done the right way and the inspectors tell us that.


I pretty much disagree with that statement. If a hurricane comes thru, will it not tear off the shingles? Would not a cap nailed synthetic work almost as well for a secondary waterproofing?

There was a time when not using underlayments so much and creating a watertight, long term roof was considered the right way.
Successful roof installations have been put on for centuries without ice and water.

More and more ice and water is really being used for a lack of correct installation. more and on the secondary and less on the surface material.
In addition, ice and water shield does not breath, and has been known to cause serious deck degradation.
The process of choking off the buildings ability to breath with underlayments is relatively new. We don't know yet how it will play out.
I doubt that most buildings/houses have the venting in place to allow for reducing the ability to allow air and moisture to pass thru.

I would think of all places, Florida would be the worse place to ice and water the whole roof due the high humidity and heat.

We have applied ice and water to entire roofs, only when necessary like with low pitch concerns.


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## barry1219

red_cedar said:


> I pretty much disagree with that statement. If a hurricane comes thru, will it not tear off the shingles? Would not a cap nailed synthetic work almost as well for a secondary waterproofing?
> 
> There was a time when not using underlayments so much and creating a watertight, long term roof was considered the right way.
> Successful roof installations have been put on for centuries without ice and water.
> 
> More and more ice and water is really being used for a lack of correct installation. more and on the secondary and less on the surface material.
> In addition, ice and water shield does not breath, and has been known to cause serious deck degradation.
> The process of choking off the buildings ability to breath with underlayments is relatively new. We don't know yet how it will play out.
> I doubt that most buildings/houses have the venting in place to allow for reducing the ability to allow air and moisture to pass thru.
> 
> I would think of all places, Florida would be the worse place to ice and water the whole roof due the high humidity and heat.
> 
> We have applied ice and water to entire roofs, only when necessary like with low pitch concerns.


 First, I would be remiss to tell you that an adhesive backed butimen underlayment is not superior in the field during a hurricane then 30#paper. A cap nailed synthetic is the same thing except with holes in it. Kind of defeats the purpose. If you have not seen the during and after effects of a hurricane I don't know how to explain to you the value of a secondary water barrier.
Second, The ones that I do have a fully vented soffit system in place and if gable style then gable vents. These last two were hip roofs and we upgraded the ridge vents ( which are prone to leaking even during a driving rain) to solar powered roof vents.

I suppose we could argue the pros and cons all night. I know for me it is the way I operate and ever since Florida deleted gable bracing from a mitigation report and over valued secondary water barriers I think my customers will agree as well.


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## barry1219

I watched this video and made the decision to switch to Ice and Water Shield immediately. The sealed house only had the seams on the decking sealed! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS4kTWDeHOY

And if you have any questions about why we have to overkill a house or window or doorway down here take a look at this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZyjMbMHbTU&feature=related


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## dougger222

We've ice and watered quite a few houses over the years. If the house is not ventilated properly it may cause problems however.

Any slope we do under a 4/12 with shingles get I&W. 

Back in 06 decided to get rid of the thin white shingles on my home and detached garage so had some extra I&W and shingles laying around. The roofs were small and my deductible was $1,000 so figured it would be cheaper to do it than file a claim for hail. Ended putting I&W on the 10sq house roof 5/12 and I&W on the detached garage 7sq 8/12. We got some real light hail a couple years ago and finaly last year got to it. The House roof tore off horrible EVERY SHINGLE STUCK TO THE I&W. The detached garage roof tore off fine (not heated). Second time around just put the two rows as code on the eaves and fiberglass felt after that.

I agree with another poster my price for Roofer Select ($55) and Winterguard ($60) makes I&W cheap and fiberglass felt real spendy.


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## A&E Exteriors

FerrisHI said:


> Its definitely above and beyond...but if the homeowner is going to pay for it so be it...but i would hate to be the next roofer in having to tear that thing off...


If I come across a full i&w roof 
, its getting sheets pulled with shingles attached


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## A&E Exteriors

I'd take synthetic over full I&w on any roof 4/12 and up myself


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## red_cedar

barry1219 said:


> First, I would be remiss to tell you that an adhesive backed butimen underlayment is not superior in the field during a hurricane then 30#paper. A cap nailed synthetic is the same thing except with holes in it. Kind of defeats the purpose. If you have not seen the during and after effects of a hurricane I don't know how to explain to you the value of a secondary water barrier.
> Second, The ones that I do have a fully vented soffit system in place and if gable style then gable vents. These last two were hip roofs and we upgraded the ridge vents ( which are prone to leaking even during a driving rain) to solar powered roof vents.
> 
> I suppose we could argue the pros and cons all night. I know for me it is the way I operate and ever since Florida deleted gable bracing from a mitigation report and over valued secondary water barriers I think my customers will agree as well.



Your application, in your extreme weather conditions may warrant the ice and water. It's being put on to prevent insurance claims.

Somehow I would protect myself from any potential future repercussions from the lack of air permeability. If people have problems down the road, they will be looking for someone to blame.


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## SLSTech

red_cedar said:


> If a hurricane comes thru, will it not tear off the shingles?


Yes it will tear off some shingles but the I&W would still be there & that is one reason why it is part of Florida's code - either you do the whole roof or all the seams



red_cedar said:


> Would not a cap nailed synthetic work almost as well for a secondary waterproofing?


Depends on how it was installed - you would still have to do peal&stick on the seams though from what I recall as almost doesn't cut it. Not only is this an "insurance" issue, this is peoples homes with tons of memories in them



red_cedar said:


> In addition, ice and water shield does not breath, and has been known to cause serious deck degradation.


Repeat after me - houses & roofs do not need to breathe
If water doesn't get in, it doesn't have to get out
I am getting a sneaky feeling you live up north where ice dams are an issue - that isn't a roofing or ventilation issue, it is an air-sealing & insulation issue



red_cedar said:


> The process of choking off the buildings ability to breath with underlayments is relatively new. We don't know yet how it will play out.
> I doubt that most buildings/houses have the venting in place to allow for reducing the ability to allow air and moisture to pass thru.
> I would think of all places, Florida would be the worse place to ice and water the whole roof due the high humidity and heat.


See above & no it isn't as it has been code there shortly after Katrina (?) came through --- if this was such a huge issue I am sure it would be a big story by now or at least some real studies would already have been started about this "issue"


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## tccoggs

The breathing argument is somewhat silly. If you have appropriate soffit/attic air flow under the deck, the deck can breath from the underside. A membrane in intimate contact with the deck is not going to allow water to build up between the 2 layers and rot the deck. I would say that heat is the main cause of deck failure over years, not water.

As for the shingle sticking to the ice and water, stop using the cheap granulated I+W, and go for somethink like grace. Did a repair for a customer where a tree limb came down on their dormer and the dormer was covered with Grace and niether the siding nor roof fused to the membrane in 8 years.


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## FerrisHI

No doubt...



A&E Exteriors said:


> If I come across a full i&w roof
> , its getting sheets pulled with shingles attached


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## Roofsafe

I've used the granulated I/W in the past but graduated to grace for a short time but found the Carlyle to be much more forgiving during the install in warm weather. I only used I/W in the valleys, too many carpenters still don't know how to do valleys the right way so you have a solid valley, the I/W is to keep their work from messing up my work. 
Some guys seem to think that the Grace or Carlyle will keep water from getting into the attic so you don't need all the extra ventilation, hogwash, doesn't the nail go through the shingle, through the underlayment, then through the sheathing to stop with about a quarter inch sticking into the attic? hopefully it does, regardless how much I/W you have on the roof, that is the direct path for moisture to get into the attic. 
A well ventilated attic is the best protection you can give a new roof, if a roof is done right in the first place, it's not going to leak, the ventilation guarantees there will not be any moisture getting into the attic from condensation. 
But we don't get hurricanes here in Colorado so you guys who live where they do have them, have to do things a lot differently. In the high country they require a course over the soffet and one course over the outside wall and above the heated space. It may have changed over the years but still, proper ventilation can stop ice dams, you can have icedams over I/W shield just as easily as you can any other underlayment, a cold roof is a good example of icedam prevention.


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## Guttersmiths

The architect specified High Temp Grace under 75 square of metal recently. GC asked if this was okay, so instead of giving my opinion I contacted Grace. The rep there said it's fine with proper ridge to eave ventilation, and it's standard practice in the more snowy climates.


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## bluebird5

RE: The arguement that, "oh I would hate to be the next guy having to remove the ice and water shield" 

Couldn't you just remove the shingles, leave the ice and water down and then put new ice and water on top of the old. I mean why you really got to take it off, its 1/8 inch thick.


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