# Unlicensed low baller stealing my bids!



## kevbo (Jun 26, 2007)

(Sac, CA) So I just found out through a client that needs some work done out at this new community that I do a lot of work at, that some one will beat my price, I know who but I didn't know that he is unlicensed! He has low balled me on 5 bids now. Should I contact the CSLB?? What are they going to ask me if I report him? Or what should I do?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Report his @$$!


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## QRI (Jan 26, 2010)

I would report him as well....That's BS!!!


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## RadRemod (Oct 29, 2009)

Maybe you could lower your price to be more competitive with his......................or REPORT HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:clap:

I have a neighbor that off hand told me the other day that he was doing remodelling/repairs for people under the table. Now since he's not directly stealing jobs from me I'm willing to let this slide a bit. But to directly lose 5 jobs to him?  that! I'd be on the phone in a heartbeat!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Report him and move on.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I guess that settles that. :thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Do municipalities ever actually go after unlicensed guys?


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## abacab (Sep 16, 2009)

So he's probably not paying taxes, not working with a permit, it's time to send this guy packing. If he was not doing one of the three, personally I'd let it slide, but there has to be a breaking point, especially when your being penalized for following the law.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Do municipalities ever actually go after unlicensed guys?


From what I understand, California DOES.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

katoman said:


> I guess that settles that. :thumbsup:


 
Yep. 

















We all get a Coke from Katoman!


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I don't know for a fact, but I believe in cases like this if you file a formal complaint, they have to act. Once the ball is rolling, it's hard to stop.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

And a blue tongue. :laughing:


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## Jimmy Cabinet (Jan 22, 2010)

Magnettica said:


> Do municipalities ever actually go after unlicensed guys?


Every now and then the local news runs some piece on luring unlicensed contractors in for bids. Many look like decent looking honest people. Then they are confronted with the question "are you licensed" nearly all lie and say they are when in fact they are not. When confronted with the facts many get quite mad and a whole new personality shows it's ugly face.

These stings are initiated by the news people looking for a story. Other then California as some one has mentioned, no place I ever lived have I heard of muniipalities going after these people.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

rselectric1 said:


> From what I understand, California DOES.


I check the board of examiners site here in NJ and it always seems like more licensed guys getting fines for this and that and very few unlicensed guys. One guy who didn't have a license has been paying a fine since 2007. Daamnnn!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Jimmy Cabinet said:


> Every now and then the local news runs some piece on luring unlicensed contractors in for bids. Many look like decent looking honest people. Then they are confronted with the question "are you licensed" nearly all lie and say they are when in fact they are not. When confronted with the facts many get quite mad and a whole new personality shows it's ugly face.
> 
> These stings are initiated by the news people looking for a story. Other then California as some one has mentioned, no place I ever lived have I heard of muniipalities going after these people.


 
Sounds familiar.


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## RadRemod (Oct 29, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Do municipalities ever actually go after unlicensed guys?


Here in Oregon they do. The CCB here sends us contractors a quarterly news letter that has pages of contractors that got fined for various reasons. I believe if caught for working without a license here they can become licensed within a short amt of time to forgo the fine.


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## kevbo (Jun 26, 2007)

Wow, thanks guys, I'm on it, I'll keep every one posted cause I know where he will be working Tue-Wed. I'll even try and call tomorrow.

So my Wife doesn't think I should report him, "What goes around comes around" She says.????


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## Aframe (Mar 24, 2008)

Lic boards can go after licensed guys for not following the rules, but what do they do to unlicensed guys?
Not much from what I see. A job may get shut down, but that seems about all unless someone is really hurt.


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

kevbo said:


> "What goes around comes around" She says.????


She's pretty much right, but you need to speed up the process.:thumbsup:


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## Five Arrows (Jan 30, 2010)

*Jobs Permitted?*

A call to the building dept may get you more results. They make money off permits and may have an inspector red flag the job site.


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## Kyras (Jan 2, 2010)

Not to be uh....unpopular. But why is the fact that he is unlicensed connected with the fact that he low-balls. Now, I'm not a plumber, I'm a tile guy. I don't need to pull permits.

But does being licensed add that much to the price of a job. I hate to be underbid as much as the next guy, and I often am. Mostly by companies that work illegals. I recognize that that's not a level playing field, and yet, they are lowballers by nature, illegals or not. The problem solves itself soon enough.

What does unlicensed have to do with his price? Just sayin'. Cuz otherwise it's just revenge.


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## CanCritter (Feb 9, 2010)

would imagine if theres ever a issue insurance wont cover it because work was preformed by unlicenced contractor period..end of story...insurance companys will grab nto anything if they can save a buck....dont imagine your local building inspectors would think highly of that sort of practice and make it tough for them..mayby drop a bug in thier ear..what about the insurance and coverage implications?

as for the licenceing l dont imagine ld want a unlicenced electrician or gas guy fiddlein around on my house


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

kevbo said:


> ..........So my Wife doesn't think I should report him, "What goes around comes around" She says.????


 
So you're an unlicensed hack as well in your wife's eyes?


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## rselectric1 (Sep 20, 2009)

Kyras said:


> Not to be uh....unpopular. But why is the fact that he is unlicensed connected with the fact that he low-balls. Now, I'm not a plumber, I'm a tile guy. I don't need to pull permits.
> 
> But does being licensed add that much to the price of a job. I hate to be underbid as much as the next guy, and I often am. Mostly by companies that work illegals. I recognize that that's not a level playing field, and yet, they are lowballers by nature, illegals or not. The problem solves itself soon enough.
> 
> What does unlicensed have to do with his price? Just sayin'. Cuz otherwise it's just revenge.


I don't know from experience, but California (OP's state) seems to make their contractors jump through incredible hoops to become licensed. They make them walk the talk-insurance, WC, etc.

In Illinois, only certain trades are regulated by the state, and my license was earned through hard work.

If tile was regulated in your state, you would be PO'd too every single time you lost a job to a low balling hack who hasn't paid his dues and gets away with it.

Not knocking you, but I totally understand the OP's frustration.


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## QRI (Jan 26, 2010)

I think too many people are too passive when it comes to unlicensed contractors. I understand what your wife is saying, but consider that this guy is taking food off of your table.

As far as whether or not it makes a difference if you are licensed or not - It absolutely adds to the cost. I'm a licensed General Contractor in Nevada and we are about the same as California as far as rules go. License fees, business license, taxes, accountant fees, Bonds and liability insurance. (the insurance is not cheap by any stretch).

You also have to be licensed to pull a permit, so you can be assured that this guy isn't pulling any permits.


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## RadRemod (Oct 29, 2009)

Kyras, 

Do you have to be licensed/ bonded / insured to do tile where you're at? We have to be to paint where I'm at! This adds overhead to my small co lic.\ins\bonds\WC. If I lose a bid to another contractor thats above board so be it. But to lose a bid to a $15/hr unlicensed CL contractor that irritates me.


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## kevbo (Jun 26, 2007)

He's a little old (spanish) painter, we're bidding paint gigs out at a new Pulte active adult community, garage paint, interior paint, fence stain etc. Some client's have told me he has his kids do the work, from what I've seen it's young spanish guys, but clients have told me kids.
I bid a whole garage texture and paint, 2 car, 10' high lid, 2 skim coats, texture then cut in paint and roll finish. I don't do texture, my guy wants $500, I want $450 to paint, $200 in material for the paint. Spanish guy bid it at $700, and who knows what his process is. A drywall guy in the local yellow pages wanted $950 to texture. BUT HE'S NOT LICENSED AND HAS LOW BALLED MY BIDS FOR THE 5TH TIME.


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

I am with everyone else, they don't pay (and pass exam) they no play. Bottom line.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Is extortion out of the question?? :shifty:


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## cexcavation (Apr 17, 2008)

Kyras said:


> Not to be uh....unpopular. But why is the fact that he is unlicensed connected with the fact that he low-balls. Now, I'm not a plumber, I'm a tile guy. I don't need to pull permits.
> 
> But does being licensed add that much to the price of a job. I hate to be underbid as much as the next guy, and I often am. Mostly by companies that work illegals. I recognize that that's not a level playing field, and yet, they are lowballers by nature, illegals or not. The problem solves itself soon enough.
> 
> What does unlicensed have to do with his price? Just sayin'. Cuz otherwise it's just revenge.


I know this brain surgeon.......we'll he's not technically a brain surgeon, but he does real good work. I think he even has a 4yr degree from the community college. Anyhow, he doesn't have an office, staff, insurance, license, etc. but he's real cheap. Are you interested!!:laughing:

Being unlicensed definately allows you to be cheaper for a myriad of reasons. It allows you to fly under the radar in so many other ways, that your overhead goes way down. The unlicensed guy doesn't have to pay wages for the government employees that normally send you all sorts of paperwork requesting dollar figures at the bottom:clap:


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## Kyras (Jan 2, 2010)

Ok, but around here, a business/trade license is pretty cheap for a year. Workers comp isn't. But if you don't have it, contractor witholds 20%. Of course, all you have to do is claim your employees are subs and you have no taxes or comp to worry you. And if you hire Brazilians who install for $1 a sq ft, you can give it away and still make money.

I see all this on a daily basis. It doesn't affect me that much because I'm not competing for the cheapest work, but it has cost me a bread and butter contractor.

I don't see that license solving any of that. That's what I meant. It may be a red flag, but a license doesn't make the guy not low ball you. He gonna low ball you.

I have a curled, yellowed, framed placard from the 50"s, it used to hang on the dusty wall of the old shop.

Pricecutters

"God created pricecutters, in the same way that he created flies, fleas, hornets, wasps, spiders and all manner of disgusting, annoying creatures. He alone knows why he created these pests, and one day he may choose to enlighten us. But, up to now, I'll be DAMNED if I understand."

Blame the license, blame the illegals, blame the insurance. It's the Pricecutter that's to blame. Those are just the tools of his trade. He would get the job done regardless.


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## farmboy555 (Aug 13, 2006)

go on his job and do a slip & fall. then see what happens???????????????


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## kevbo (Jun 26, 2007)

So..whaaaat? In the end it all comes down to that he just beat my bid regardless of license or not?
I just thought of some thing, if I report him, wont the home owner get in trouble and the builder for having him on their referall list????


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## wyoming 1 (May 7, 2008)

yeah I would worry more for the ho and the builder instead my own family. I would just sit back do nothing and let this guy take my work.


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## THINKPAINTING (Feb 24, 2007)

Back in the old days construction workers and contractors had it pretty good in my area. There was plenty of work and decent money to be made so you make a decent living and even have retirement and benefits.

Then slow by sure some low ballers who were unlicensed and uninsured starting taking work, everyone said Oh there’s plenty of work don’t worry.

Along came illegal’s taking all kinds of work, either working for other so called contractors or working for themselves , again everyone said don’t worry they wont hurt our trade.

So yeah don't report him, unless you want to work for less than him that way you can get the job. :thumbsup:


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## freemason21 (Aug 5, 2009)

go hustle him for a cut off his jobs he steals you. whats a little extortion right :laughing:


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## kevbo (Jun 26, 2007)

Ya, well I'm gonna do some thing on Mon. I will try to keep the home owner and builder out of it.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

IF you are going to report................Be sure that all of your "Business Ducks"are in a row! That ALL of your legitimacy is intact!


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

Kyras said:


> I don't see that license solving any of that. That's what I meant. It may be a red flag, but a license doesn't make the guy not low ball you. He gonna low ball you.


Having a license and being low bidder is one thing. 
Being able to price a job thousands less (than a licensed contractor) because you don't have to worry about paying taxes, insurance, W/C, and the expenses of running a legitimate business is no different than stealing.

You have a drivers licence right? Pay car insurance? Legal tags? Follow the traffic laws and regulations?
Now, say somebody with a car and no license or insurance runs a light and smashes into you guess who's screwed?

Just saying...


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

SC sawdaddy said:


> ............You have a drivers licence right? Pay car insurance? Legal tags? Follow the traffic laws and regulations?
> Now, say somebody with a car and no license or insurance runs a light and smashes into you guess who's screwed?
> 
> Just saying...


Kind of a poor analogy, actually. I'd say it's a valid one if the other driver _intended_ to crash into you in order to _make a profit_, but that's usually not the case. In most cases, they're either too poor or drunk.


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

Yeah guess it wasn't the best comparison. 
My point however is that I run my business straight up and legal. I jump through the hoops that the county and state dictate. I have no respect or trust for anyone who doesn't.


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## JohnD (Dec 30, 2009)

Kyras said:


> Not to be uh....unpopular. But why is the fact that he is unlicensed connected with the fact that he low-balls. Now, I'm not a plumber, I'm a tile guy. I don't need to pull permits.
> 
> But does being licensed add that much to the price of a job. I hate to be underbid as much as the next guy, and I often am. Mostly by companies that work illegals. I recognize that that's not a level playing field, and yet, they are low ballers by nature, illegals or not. The problem solves itself soon enough.
> 
> What does unlicensed have to do with his price? Just sayin'. Cuz otherwise it's just revenge.


Just my personal opinion after the above comment from Kyras whose opinion I respect and reading this thread.

Here is why he should be reported:
1. Licensing exists for a reason. -- to protect the customer - safety for both parties - following building codes (foolish or not)
2. If he is using illegal aliens as well to low ball then that is yet another violation and injustice and the playing field should be made level. (This practice hurts everyone in the country - it's not just about unfair competition)
3. Doing nothing you contribute to the problem indirectly legitimatizing it for the next unlicensed guy who hears how his buddy is making a killing and allows it to spread. (No penalties = a wink to wannabies) <-- Your County Officials bear this responsibility
4. Bad news gets around and might discourage others

Get a few contractors together and head to TownHall and demand that they clean up the county/town if the practice is rampant. Together as a voting block, you would be surprised how they will listen in an open forum where local cameras are rolling and your group of license contractors points our the SAFETY ISSUES and potential harm to the community this practice causes. Give a few local politicians a platform to run on and maybe they will do something about it!!

Now... for the hubby... She may be concerned about retribution. So let me ask a question as I am not an expert in this area. Why not report anonymously... ?? Have a building inspector visit the site and ask for credentials ?? That might help her sleep better at night.

Get a few contractors you know together talk about it and in the end nail the #$#@ on behalf of yourself and everyone else who plays by the rules. I am sure you are not the only one he is hurting.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

If nothing else, tell the HO he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay the unlicensed hack once the work is done. The contract, if any, would be invalid since he's not licensed. Therefore, the contract is unenforceable.


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## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

You need a lic to paint in Cal?


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## AFOREMA1 (Jun 25, 2009)

nailkiller1 said:


> You need a lic to paint in Cal?



You need a license to piss in California!


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> You need a license to piss in California!


 
What about pissing ON California? :laughing:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

You need to start low balling him, he'll come back and low ball you just to get the job. After a few of those he'll be out of business and everything will be right again. Report his a$$.


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## kevbo (Jun 26, 2007)

Ya, what ever I do it will be incognito. The last bids I lost to him were like this...the client calls me tells me what they want and that they got me off the referral list, some even tell me they are getting other bids, most likely from this spanish painter, I proceed to give them a bid close to the price that has been working for me, they get back to me saying they are going with some one else. After a couple times of this I started to find out that it was this guy. 
What I just might do since this only happens off the referral list, is the next time I get a call from a client off the list I will inform them of his status and let them make the call. Also, maybe I will call the sales office there and ask them if they are aware of his status, of course without telling them who I am....just a homeowner out there, I will say that found this out before using his services. Though for sure I'm going to call the CSLB without giving them any personal info and see what the consequences are. 

Isn't there any one out there that has turned some one in???


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

quit pissing around with the state people, maybe call the IRS or INS ???


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## thegreek (Dec 11, 2008)

kevbo said:


> So..whaaaat? In the end it all comes down to that he just beat my bid regardless of license or not?
> I just thought of some thing, if I report him, wont the home owner get in trouble and the builder for having him on their referall list????


Nope in ca its not the home owners fault and for that fact dont have to pay your low baller a dime.


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## THINKPAINTING (Feb 24, 2007)

kevbo said:


> Ya, what ever I do it will be incognito. The last bids I lost to him were like this...the client calls me tells me what they want and that they got me off the referral list, some even tell me they are getting other bids, most likely from this spanish painter, I proceed to give them a bid close to the price that has been working for me, they get back to me saying they are going with some one else. After a couple times of this I started to find out that it was this guy.
> What I just might do since this only happens off the referral list, is the next time I get a call from a client off the list I will inform them of his status and let them make the call. Also, maybe I will call the sales office there and ask them if they are aware of his status, of course without telling them who I am....just a homeowner out there, I will say that found this out before using his services. Though for sure I'm going to call the CSLB without giving them any personal info and see what the consequences are.
> 
> Isn't there any one out there that has turned some one in???


Yep right here I have and do every chance I get. I also go straight to the illegal contractor and let them know what’s up. This is my livelihood and I have no problem what so ever letting someone know.

That what’s wrong today everyone’s afraid to hurt someone’s feelings , I also let the customers know they are hiring a illegal unlicensed contractor and better yet how would they like it if they lost there own job to a illegal low baller.

Listen you do what you want but once this start’s its like a cancer they find out no one cares and more and more come and take your work.

Nothing pisses off my crew and I when we have no work-- and illegals are all working..... :furious:

FYI, we call the building dept, the attorney general, and the media to finish it off we let our state rep and congressman know if they want our vote and tax money something needs to be done. One of the things we liked about Scott Brown he was all ears on this issue in our state which is very illegal friendly. 
.


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## afkama (Jul 16, 2006)

You can start here to file a complaint. They will keep your info private:

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Resources/FormsAndApplications/SWIFTLeadReferralForm.pdf


"Starting January 1, 2010, a first offense will be punishable by up to a $5,000 fine and/or six months in county jail. A second offense will be punishable by 20 percent of the contract price, or aggregate payments to the unlicensed contractor, or $5,000, whichever is greater, and not less than 90 days in county jail. A third offense would be subject to a fine not less than $5,000 nor greater than $10,000 or 20 percent of the contract price, and a county jail sentence between 90 days and one year."

A call to Worker's Comp will give him a rude awakening as well.

All of these agencies are required to keep your name secret.


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## mikebooth (Dec 12, 2009)

*mikebooth*

He is a scum bag. Turn him in to the right people. He most likely does not have any insurance either.:thumbup:


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## BuenaHomes (Jun 13, 2007)

kevbo said:


> my Wife doesn't think I should report him, "What goes around comes around" She says.????


She is wrong on this, that's true in social relationships and in matter of virtue and ethics, but I assume that you are a professional licensed, thus it's not only your duty to report the criminal, un-ethical behavior but also it's the moral thing to do.

People sometimes apply moral ,good rules to protect bad behavior, but how comes a law can become legal its not because the rulers?
you are what you are because you believe in what you are. When you understand what's moral, amoral, inmoral, ethical, un-ethical, and you know your duty, then act accordingly.

There's nothing wrong for you to report a criminal (that's at least what the definition is for un-licensed contractor in California). Decide which side of the law you are in.:thumbup:


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

RadRemod said:


> Maybe you could lower your price to be more competitive with his......................or REPORT HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:clap:
> 
> I have a neighbor that off hand told me the other day that he was doing remodelling/repairs for people under the table. Now since he's not directly stealing jobs from me I'm willing to let this slide a bit. But to directly lose 5 jobs to him?  that! I'd be on the phone in a heartbeat!


 
Somebody is losing jobs to him.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

Jimmy Cabinet said:


> These stings are initiated by the news people looking for a story. Other then California as some one has mentioned, no place I ever lived have I heard of muniipalities going after these people.



If you report them in Oregon, they'll show up and fine them. They've tripled the number of fines in the last three years as legit contractors are patrolling craig's list and turning in their unlicensed competition.


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## kevbo (Jun 26, 2007)

Hey there! Me again...so I lost 2 more to this guy, once again off the referral list. So I was told from another client out there that was getting prices from me and this guy that he says he "is working off his brother's license". So whats the deal with that?? I thought that just meant that insurance is void if a relative is working for you...but to go out and contract work off a relative's license???


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

If he is an employee of the brother then he is legal. If he has his own business he needs his own license. He cannot use someone else's while running his own business.


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## afkama (Jul 16, 2006)

kevbo said:


> Hey there! Me again...so I lost 2 more to this guy, once again off the referral list. So I was told from another client out there that was getting prices from me and this guy that he says he "is working off his brother's license". So whats the deal with that?? I thought that just meant that insurance is void if a relative is working for you...but to go out and contract work off a relative's license???


His brother can lose his license in a heartbeat for that.

The guy doing the work is considered to be unlicensed in this situation.

Turn them in.


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## afkama (Jul 16, 2006)

Per CSLB:



> Felony charges may be filed against those who illegally use someone else's license or who try to mislead consumers into believing that you are a licensed contractor.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

16. Payroll company or software.
17. Yearly General Liability insurance audit every.
18. Yearly Workers Comp audit.
19. Self Employment tax.
20. Match Social Security of employees.
21. Unemployment tax.
22. Federal employee taxes.
23. Business Federal taxes
24. Personal Federal taxes.
25....
:wallbash:


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## ConstructGirl (May 10, 2010)

California doesn't mess around. They actually do try and go after these guys see article below from March 25th 2010 just two months back... Hope this helps answer your question. TURN HIM IN it's bad for the industry as a whole having him out there. 

First offense for performing work without a license is 1000.00$ Fine and a misdemeanor charge with possible 1 year sentence ( not likely though). 

Second Offense is a felony charges with 5,000.00$ fine with 4 year sentence (possible?)

ARTICLE BELOW:

Sting targets unlicensed contractors in Sacramento region, statewide!
March 25th, 2010::thumbup:

Sting operations this week directed at unlicensed contractors have resulted in the arrest of 161 people, many in the Sacramento region.
Most of the contractors arrested Tuesday and Wednesday were issued notices to appear in court and will face misdemeanor charges of contracting without a license.
The stings were conducted in Sonoma, Santa Clara, Sacramento, El Dorado, Madera, Kern, Santa Barbara, Los Angeles, Orange and San Bernardino counties.
Four suspects were taken to jail on felony charges. One suspect was previously convicted of contracting with out a license,burglary, child abuse and domestic violence, and another was a registered sex offender.
In El Dorado County, the sting centered on El Dorado Hills, where 12 notices to appear were issued. In Sacramento County, the sting was in Rancho Cordova, where 24 notices to appear and 23 citations for no business license were issued.


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## WiaW (Aug 27, 2009)

If I could make a deal with the Governing bodies, I will or would make a fortune. I make a commision on the fines given to companies that do not follow the rules. I become a knark of sorts. With the EPA Rule, I think, I could retire within the year, with my cut of the fines. 
Anyway, we have to, and always will have to put up with this. I have a friend that does not follow the laws or rules and probably pays none of the taxes that we have to pay. I can't turn him in... I would be scorned forever by our shared friends. I go to sleep at night knowing that I do it right. Unless I don't sleep due to a prob. on a job or any of the many other things that keep me awake, you all know what I mean.
If a H/O tells me they can get it for less from JB, then I wish them good luck and tell them to call me if they need something else done. Sometimes the call has been to fix JB's work.


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## Green & Gold (Nov 20, 2009)

If you read the business and marketing threads here, the larger, established contractors will tell you that longevity, a solid warranty, references/word of mouth, and superior service is the reason they stay busy even at their higher prices (w/higher overhead) despite the market being saturated with low ballers. As such, if a low baller is taking work from you, your company is not a solid, reputable and superior service provider. According to the successful contractors, price is not the objection. I've found this to be mostly true. Simply cutting my price below the competition's does not mean I'll get the job. In fact, that rarely happens. There are the occassional customers who shop by price alone, but they are rare. 

Just ask the quality, licensed journeyman tradesmen who advertises on Craig's List (Yes, there are many along with the hacks) quoting prices that are substantially lower than the larger, well advertised and established businesses (and those large co's employ tradesmen who are unlicensed and usually much less qualified than the Craig's List tradesmen). That Craig's List tradesmen will quote $600. and the reputable company will quote $1000. More often (even in this economy) the established company will get the job, and then they will send a 2 year apprentice to do the repair or installation (while the customer could have had a 10/20 yr licensed journeyman do the work for half the price). It is all about perception. Little about pricing. I say this because the lowballer is not beating you simply because his price is lower. There is something about the guy (maybe his personality or marketing strategy) that is allowing him to win jobs over you. Remember, if it was all about the lowest price, you could advertise on Craig's List as being "Half the price of the competition" and get all the work in your area. There are guys trying that right now (who are quality, clean cut, licensed journeymen tradesmen with 10-20 yrs experience, but with no advertising budget) who are not working despite very low pricing. I know a few. Most people are not moved by the lowest price.


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## olligator (Nov 23, 2007)

*Pre-emptive Unlicensed Contractor Bust*

I saw this today right after I did my monthly payment on my WC policy; actually made me smile a little bit 


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/br...o-contractor-arrests-20100518,0,4536928.story


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

olligator said:


> I saw this today right after I did my monthly payment on my WC policy; actually made me smile a little bit
> 
> 
> http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/br...o-contractor-arrests-20100518,0,4536928.story



That's interesting to say the least. I wonder how they (the sheriff's deputies) were determining who was an unlicensed contractor by stopping vehicles at a checkpoint? Anyone who had tools in the vehicle and had no contractor license is determined to be guilty of operating illegally and issued a citation? Just wondering.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Jeff G said:


> That's interesting to say the least. I wonder how they (the sheriff's deputies) were determining who was an unlicensed contractor by stopping vehicles at a checkpoint? Anyone who had tools in the vehicle and had no contractor license is determined to be guilty of operating illegally and issued a citation? Just wondering.


I was thinkin' the same thing - maybe lic# on the truck or lack there of...I know we're supposed to have it displayed on vehicles with advertising (new state law thingy)


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## olligator (Nov 23, 2007)

The rumor is that it's magnetic signs on your truck plus how "illegal" your rig looks. I do know the state requires that if you have advertising on your rig that you need to have your license numbers on there too, and that it has to be done out of vinyl or paint, something of a more permanent nature. 

I am sure that if you happen to be brown and drive a ragged-out astro van with half-assed magnetic signs and maybe english isn't your language then you'd be "pre-emptively selected for screening" aka profiled by the sheriff in that case. I guess it depends on what you tell the sheriff when he confronts you too.

What would have been interesting is if they had done this in the parkinglot of blowes or the ho depot.


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## Mike772 (May 16, 2005)

#25 Lead RRP License - the actual costs and the time spent going to class. As well as all the extra stuff needed to comply while doing a job.

Which begs another question to the OP. The low baller is a painter, is any of the homes pre '78? If yes, turn him in to the Dept of Health. Never know, maybe that rumor about getting 25% of his fines would pay off.

Hell, I'd report him anyway (even if it wasn't an older home) just to have fun.


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## RenaissanceR (May 16, 2006)

*Lack of Action*

[deleted]


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

olligator said:


> I saw this today right after I did my monthly payment on my WC policy; actually made me smile a little bit
> 
> 
> http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/br...o-contractor-arrests-20100518,0,4536928.story


Hopefully the *DBPR* will be in my County next. :whistling


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## kevbo (Jun 26, 2007)

GET A KICK OUT OF THIS!!! This is the guy pulling up, being towed by one of his guys as the homeowner stands in the garage! I went out there today to see someone about some shelving and did a quick drive by the last 2 houses I just recently got lowballed on by this guy. I bid the garage in this picture for $1000, texture and paint(lid too)...didn't win it...this guy did, and he has 2 guys helping...maybe more. I stopped just for a second and 5 seconds later I see this coming around the corner.


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## darr1 (May 25, 2010)

its very tough your trying to do things right and when this c..p happens it sets you right back , its happening here in ireland to all you can do is keep going :thumbup:


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## Jeff G (Apr 5, 2010)

kevbo said:


> GET A KICK OUT OF THIS!!! This is the guy pulling up, being towed by one of his guys as the homeowner stands in the garage! I went out there today to see someone about some shelving and did a quick drive by the last 2 houses I just recently got lowballed on by this guy. I bid the garage in this picture for $1000, texture and paint(lid too)...didn't win it...this guy did, and he has 2 guys helping...maybe more. I stopped just for a second and 5 seconds later I see this coming around the corner.


Now that's what I call a "Top Notch" contractor, at least that what it looks like to me. :no:

I wonder if his friend towed him home too, and will be towing him back out tomorrow. :w00t:


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

kevbo said:


> GET A KICK OUT OF THIS!!! This is the guy pulling up, being towed by one of his guys as the homeowner stands in the garage! I went out there today to see someone about some shelving and did a quick drive by the last 2 houses I just recently got lowballed on by this guy. I bid the garage in this picture for $1000, texture and paint(lid too)...didn't win it...this guy did, and he has 2 guys helping...maybe more. I stopped just for a second and 5 seconds later I see this coming around the corner.


That's just his souped up work trailer.:laughing:


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## MiHandyMan (May 26, 2010)

*report him*



kevbo said:


> (Sac, CA) So I just found out through a client that needs some work done out at this new community that I do a lot of work at, that some one will beat my price, I know who but I didn't know that he is unlicensed! He has low balled me on 5 bids now. Should I contact the CSLB?? What are they going to ask me if I report him? Or what should I do?


I'd report him.


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## kevbo (Jun 26, 2007)

I talked to another licensed painter that was out there to see what he charges to epoxy a garage, 2k...not $400! I told him about this guy and he said he was having a problem like this in another community he was working in and said reporting them doesn't work. They get to it when they get to it, just gotta wait till there's a sting. Next time I get a call for an estimate out there I'm gonna tell the homeowner to get his price first and then call me and I will beat it.....maybe....it's my last option.
He saw me take the picture, but who cares.


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## S.R.E. (Apr 8, 2010)

kevbo said:


> Next time I get a call for an estimate out there I'm gonna tell the homeowner to get his price first and then call me and I will beat it.....maybe....it's my last option.
> He saw me take the picture, but who cares.


  Why tell the customer that? You'll go broke slower sitting at home. I know you could probably use the work but, I think you would be setting yourself up for failure using that method. :no:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

He did say maybe :w00t:


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## kevbo (Jun 26, 2007)

Alright, here we go again, I just got 2 more calls off the referral list I've been talking about. My plan is to ask the client, "did you get me off the referral list", most likely yes. Then I was going to say, like I said previously, "you are probably going to get an estimate from the other painter on the list right", most likely yes. I am going to say, "get his price first and call me back and I will beat it". Of course if its to low I will say, "Oh sorry, I guess I cant beat an unlicensed painter. 
What do you guys think, any other ideas before I call these clients??


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## dave_dj1 (Mar 16, 2010)

I wouldn't go through the trouble of all that, just go do your usual bid, make a point of telling the HO that you are licensed and insured and that they will find your rates competitive with other licensed contractors. 
Part of doing business is selling yourself, you have to win them over right away, make them WANT YOU TO DO THE BEST JOB FOR THEM.


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## kevbo (Jun 26, 2007)

I've tried that, I've told the last potential clients that he is not licensed and that I do a lot more than just painting.....I either don't hear back or they contact me to tell me they are using some one else(him). I've even sent them pictures showing them the shoddy work he does...like this in a garage and in a bedroom.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

I don't see why you spend so much energy complaining about un-licensed contractors. Is it unfair...yes. Are your complaints warranted? Sure, but, the bottom line is that most prospects don't care. They believe Joe can do the job at a better price. Look at Wal-Mart, it's not like they hvae a rep for being great employers or "ethical" purchasing from suppliers. Look at Con-Agra or Tyson, it's not like those words evoke thoughts of happy/ healthy animals.

I think it's more of a travesty that so many people disregard the ethics side of doing business in the name of a killer price.


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## William James (Mar 5, 2010)

*I understand your frustration!*

But bottom line, if you reported him then drop it and move on. You are being consumed by this guy low-balling you and not focusing on getting more jobs. Just beating him. when you're giving an estimate, No matter how you try to hide it, your frustration is going to show through. 

Focus on what you can control. 
Ads in different papers, flyers in different communities...
Changing your slogan or phrase for ads. Personally, I prefer to use positives about myself/co then putting down a competitor. You're more than just a painter!

Obviously, this is all just IMO.


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## superchaos (Aug 6, 2010)

SC sawdaddy said:


> Yeah guess it wasn't the best comparison.
> My point however is that I run my business straight up and legal. I jump through the hoops that the county and state dictate. I have no respect or trust for anyone who doesn't.


Whats a real bummer is when a friend you gave work to to help them out when they were down goes behind your back and low balls your other friends house that promised you the work that I've done before in the past and needed to be done again years later.And I also gave him work.Whats wrong with some people anymore?I noticed quality doesn't seem to really matter neither since I was canned after being the best of having barely any leaks in 11 years compared to the others that I always had to fix.And I never Knocked anybody's work or talked bad about the company.Building sunrooms.


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## Zer0Tolerance (Aug 7, 2010)

No offense to the hard working mexicans out there, BUT if they are illegal and have no insurance or license I would report them in a heartbeat, as with anyone else illegal. Plus, they don't pay taxes. I'm sick of losing jobs to illegals as I'm sure the rest of you hard working American citizens are, it's part of the problem with the economy, cause construction was the #1 industry in America but now I believe it is the #2 and these illegals can do work for cheap cause they do everything ILLEGALLY!!! Pisses me off

If you are an immigrant/mexican who works hard, gets his citizenship or greencard, and does things the right way (taxes, licenses, insurance, etc.), then I have no problem with you, but as we all know, most of the mexicans out there aren't legal and are all taking our jobs especially in this industry. People don't understand that the lowest bid gets you shoddy work and as I said before in this economy that's who the homeowner goes with to save some money.

Another thing that pisses me off is when I get business cards/brochures on my door, mainly from illegals, saying they do roofing, carpet, fences, concrete work, painting, landscaping, tile work, and their wifes do house keeping... I just laugh my ass off when I see that they claim they can do all this work. Ya, they probably can do all of that work, but I guarantee it's done WRONG and you will have to spend more money in the end getting it re-done the right way. I've had to come back and repair illegals work that was done wrong many many times. IE. they pour a slab of concrete but they float it to where the concrete slopes down toward the house and water pools at the edge of the house rotting out the siding and woodwork. Then I have to come back with a jackhammer and pour a whole new one. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!

That pic of him getting his van towed to the job is absolutely EPIC ROFL. If I saw that pull up to my house I would tell him to go home.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

On this forum , you are preaching to the choir. Here are some things that I have found to be true for me: 

Most HO's don't know what quality is. To them, all contractors, legal, illegal, licensed or not --- are all the same and do the same thing. 

Most HO's think that contractors are "rip offs" and that they can do it themselves --- cus, they believe that "how smart do you have to be" to be a contractor. Plus, with all the "DIY" books, DVD's and shows on HG, it looks pretty simple. 

People look at their money situation. When there was a ton of equity in the house, then a lot of HO's justified spending money on fairly legit contractors. Now that the money isn't there, but they still want stuff done, they go for the lowest cost "person" out there. 

I got a flyer on my car the other day from a "handyman". He does everything, every trade including moving. Of course no license, no insurance, zip. 

I have in-laws in a toney little town where "smugness" is the rule. Their upper middle class house($1.5-2mil) is falling apart --- but they don't care. If they need something done, they go for the lowest cost, unlicensed uninsured handyman or Home Depot parking lot "contractor" they can find and get a band aid on the problem. They don't care, they don't know quality if it bit them in the butt and money is the only consideration. 

I was having a tough time myself getting business and keeping it going. I finally partnered with another firm, and, now I am booked solid at least for the next 6 months. Plus we are hiring two more technicians. 




Zer0Tolerance said:


> No offense to the hard working mexicans out there, BUT if they are illegal and have no insurance or license I would report them in a heartbeat, as with anyone else illegal. Plus, they don't pay taxes. I'm sick of losing jobs to illegals as I'm sure the rest of you hard working American citizens are, it's part of the problem with the economy, cause construction was the #1 industry in America but now I believe it is the #2 and these illegals can do work for cheap cause they do everything ILLEGALLY!!! Pisses me off
> 
> If you are an immigrant/mexican who works hard, gets his citizenship or greencard, and does things the right way (taxes, licenses, insurance, etc.), then I have no problem with you, but as we all know, most of the mexicans out there aren't legal and are all taking our jobs especially in this industry. People don't understand that the lowest bid gets you shoddy work and as I said before in this economy that's who the homeowner goes with to save some money.
> 
> ...


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

The guy doing his best and just trying to put food on his table doesn't threaten me in the slightest, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that a lot of us started out our careers working for another contractor and scabbing on the side until we were able to get our licenses and out on our own.

The guys I have a big problem with are the hackmeisters, such as the one mentioned in this thread. All he cares about is the money, he doesn't care about quality, client satisfaction, or anything else, and should be reported. Now, having said that, I've come in behind just as many bonefied, licensed, bonded, and insured contractors that didn't know their posterior orifice from a hole in the ground doing the same type of work. IMHO these guys should be reported just as much as the unlicensed hacks. A hack is a hack that is of no value to anyone.

A license doesn't mean anything, it only means you've passed some bureaucrat's arbitrary test and paid your 10 pieces of gold. It says nothing to the integrity or ability of the license holder.


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## cwatbay (Mar 16, 2010)

You are right about the guy just trying to put food on the table. Of course this is what the "immigration ( ie: illega) activists are saying about all the illegals in this country that are taking work from citizens ----oops, I made a mistake, Americans don't like doing construction work !!

According to the Obama administraton: Arizona's illegal immigrant law does not take into account the Humanitarian and Foreign Policy factors we have with Mexico: Translation: The US is the sewage dump for Mexico's rulers --- all the uneducated, unemployed Mexican Indians can come here rather than be forced to stay in Mexico and cause problems. They can keep reproducing and we'll keep taking 'em. 

But I digress............

I remember when High Schools had vocational classes for all those students that the "educated elite" felt were not worthy of going to college. These students actually got hands on training in the trades and didn't have to go into debt of thousands of dollars to attend a questionable trade school. 

Unfortunately, that's all gone now. And what you have are barely educated high school graduates that can't go on to college so they end up ( at least some of them) in the trades working for a contractor --- who may or may not pass on to them some valuable knowledge. If they are lucky, they may end up in a Union. But my experience with union guys has been disastrous --don't know jack, deliberately slow, arrogant and not one wit of common sense. 

I agree with you about hacks. License or not, a hack is a hack. They tend to be the low ballers --- and maybe they are just giving HO's what they want ( or deserve ). But I think a hack's mentality is that "a sucker is born every minute" and they are there for the fleecing. 





A. Spruce said:


> The guy doing his best and just trying to put food on his table doesn't threaten me in the slightest, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that a lot of us started out our careers working for another contractor and scabbing on the side until we were able to get our licenses and out on our own.
> 
> The guys I have a big problem with are the hackmeisters, such as the one mentioned in this thread. All he cares about is the money, he doesn't care about quality, client satisfaction, or anything else, and should be reported. Now, having said that, I've come in behind just as many bonefied, licensed, bonded, and insured contractors that didn't know their posterior orifice from a hole in the ground doing the same type of work. IMHO these guys should be reported just as much as the unlicensed hacks. A hack is a hack that is of no value to anyone.
> 
> A license doesn't mean anything, it only means you've passed some bureaucrat's arbitrary test and paid your 10 pieces of gold. It says nothing to the integrity or ability of the license holder.


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## whitewolf woodworks (Mar 15, 2010)

*Need a license?*

If an unlicensed "contractor" is underbidding, you bet he should be reported. From what I see, it costs more to do it right and have a contractor's license. Plus, your reputation is on the line. Any idea (though it really has nothing to do with the point here) what his work is like? 

Having said that, I have a question. I own a small woodworking business and I have a state and municipal business license. However, last summer we built a few sheds, locally, and I felt I probably should have a contractor's license for doing much more of that type of work. What do you think, building sheds on a very small scale, word of mouth and Craigslist advertising,always under 200sqft so no permits needed. Should I persue a contractor's license? I don't think I could get a general contractor's license as I don't have the professional experience with that many trades. Also, don't flame me here as I'm just asking an honest question. If I'm doing it wrong, I want to figure out how to do it right!


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## whitewolf woodworks (Mar 15, 2010)

In selling your bid to the HO, you may want to point out that an unlicensed contractor may underbid all the real contractors, but if you hire the lowest bidder and the job turns out badly, the HO may have little or no recourse. It's hard to sue someone when there is nothing to sue for!


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## kcbasements (Feb 5, 2010)

Anytime I am doing a basement finish, I stress the importance of pulling a permit. I inform the homeowner of some of the issues they could encounter by not pulling a permit. 

A did a bid on deck last spring. The guy had just paid some handyman, to build a deck for him. 75% into the job an inspector drove by the project. The deck had not been built to code and the contractor was not licensed so the deck had to be torn down. 

I actually just wrote about this subject in my blog and go into some greater detail of why it is important to pull a permit. 

http://blog.kcremodeling.com/2010/11/23/pulling-a-permit-for-your-basement-remodeling-project.aspx


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## deckandpatio (Nov 8, 2010)

As licensed contractors, we need to educate the public on why it is a good idea to work with professionals. The internet is a great tool for this. We recently came across a 1 year old deck that was letting water into the basement. I made a video to show others. Here's a link...



http://www.youtube.com/user/kcdeckandpatio#p/u/5/Zc1cfYIjre8


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