# Russell Contracting, Gettysburg PA



## Eric Russell (Sep 22, 2009)

Hello all, has anyone had any dealings with 'Direct Buy'? One of my customers has purchased some ceramic tile from them and they told him that they are to be installed without grout. After much research on-line the general consensus is that they have to be installed with grout. They look very much like hard wood and grout will certainly take away that look. Does anyone have any suggestions? ....lol and don't say "install hardwood" lol


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

Wrong forum. I'd suggest you take this to the DIY talk forum. You'll just be mauled asking a question like that here.


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## Eric Russell (Sep 22, 2009)

*so you don't know in otherwords?*

Does that mean you don't know? I seriously doubt anyone with any sence will 'maul' unless they have no life........


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Eric Russell said:


> Does that mean you don't know? I seriously doubt anyone with any sence will 'maul' unless they have no life........


You'd be surprised - when someone comes on here and their first post is a how much or how to question....

How-to questions are for the DIY forum - but if you are a professional contractor, fill out your profile and post an introduction and try asking again.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Eric,
I have put some in before. The tile was 4"x36". floor must be FLAT for a good tile job. 
Regarding grout: whose the pro here; you or Direct Buy salesperson? What do you think will fill those open joints when food/soda/dirt/wash water get in the room? Just ask the homeowner what they would prefer, grout or food crumbs.
Also, grout fills any voids under the tile as you should know. 

olzo


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

olzo55 said:


> Eric,
> I have put some in before. The tile was 4"x36". floor must be FLAT for a good tile job.
> Regarding grout: whose the pro here; you or Direct Buy salesperson? What do you think will fill those open joints when food/soda/dirt/wash water get in the room? Just ask the homeowner what they would prefer, grout or food crumbs.
> Also, grout fills any voids under the tile as you should know.
> ...


 ???


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

olzo55 said:


> Also, grout fills any voids under the tile as you should know.


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

CookeCarpentry said:


>


 What??? You knew that , right??? lol


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

wizendwizard said:


> What??? You knew that , right??? lol


Umm...cough, cough...ahem...yea.......of course I did....:blink:


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

Eric Russell said:


> Hello all, has anyone had any dealings with 'Direct Buy'? One of my customers has purchased some ceramic tile from them and they told him that they are to be installed without grout. After much research on-line the general consensus is that they have to be installed with grout. They look very much like hard wood and grout will certainly take away that look. Does anyone have any suggestions? ....lol and don't say "install hardwood" lol


Ok, i'm going to address this in this manner only. There are tiles out there that do not require grout. I will not tell how they are to be installed. I am just confirming there are tile that don't get grouted.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

wizendwizard said:


> Ok, i'm going to address this in this manner only. There are tiles out there that do not require grout. I will not tell how they are to be installed. I am just confirming there are tile that don't get grouted.


How do you deal with any voids under the tile then?


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

CookeCarpentry said:


> How do you deal with any voids under the tile then?


 3 part fecal matter of a bull, 1 part H2O


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

wizendwizard said:


> 3 part fecal matter of a bull, 1 part H2O


That is where all my floors have failed...I have been doing a 2 to 1 mix.


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

CookeCarpentry said:


> That is where all my floors have failed...I have been doing a 2 to 1 mix.


 Just avoid 4 part dry mix, thats pure "BS".


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

ok wiz, what tiles are you talking about? Eric wants to tile a floor I presume. So you're saying that he shouldn't need grout. Let's get your take on this.
Olzo


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

olzo55 said:


> ok wiz, what tiles are you talking about? Eric wants to tile a floor I presume. So you're saying that he shouldn't need grout. Let's get your take on this.
> Olzo


 Please refer to my post #10


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Eric Russell said:


> After much research on-line the general consensus is that they have to be installed with grout. They look very much like hard wood and grout will certainly take away that look.


Well I did look you up and saw your site on SM so you're an official contractor. However, as others have noticed, your question is a bit strange for someone that is marketing themselves as a tile contractor.

Let me start with I actually have done exactly what you're asking about so I feel pretty qualified to answer your question. Before that, let's jump back a bit.

Not sure how close Philly is to you but there is a restaurant called Famous Daves that has 3 locations there. They decorate their dining areas with 6" x 24" tiles that your asking about. They use grout. If you can, visit one and get a first hand look at them.

Now, laying tile without grout is highly NOT advisable. The NTCA recommends always using grout. They are actually pushing for large grout joints, not smaller. As man-made tile gets larger and larger, it harder to keep installations flat. Grout joints help diminish the appearance of lippage. I don't care how perfectly flat a subfloor is, you cannot install ceramic tile without lippage. Man-made tile is NEVER perfectly flat. 

Now to address my hypocrisy. Yes, I did do a 6" x 24" hardwood look-a-like ceramic install without grout joints. The HO loved it. I got paid. That said, I did have to use _some _grout. There was no way, even with rectified tile, to have perfectly butted joints. There also was lippage. I minimized it as much as possible but there was no way to avoid it. The HO actually liked it because they thought it looked more like an old hardwood installation. Whatever. It also took me 2 weeks to do a 20' x 10' area. I will never do it again and I HIGHLY discourage you doing it also. My situation was totally unique and I suppose, I was lucky too.

Do yourself a HUGE favor, don't do the grout-less install. I have no idea what kind of "research" you did but coming from someone who's actually done it, DON'T DO IT.

And tell the dork from DB to go eff himself. :thumbup:


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

Anyone seen the "Dyson Vacumm" ad on TV. There is a 9" x 12" tiled kitchen that is ungrouted on that commercial. Perfect example of how crappy this senario looks.

Thanks Angus, I wasn't going to reveal the but joint method. Now that it's out thats should be all thats needed. Yes, grout is still advised to conseal lippage. I really wish people could understand that term when i'm doing a tile install.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

10 by 20 in 2 weeks? How much did you earn per hour after that?:laughing:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Cdat said:


> 10 by 20 in 2 weeks? How much did you earn per hour after that?:laughing:


Well a little more complicated than just the one room (kitchen). A hallway, 2 closets and a powder room too. I charged hourly for the tile job because I had never done that before (in a herringbone pattern) and the customer was very cool about it. I wouldn't do a full 8 hours per day, usually just diagonal across the room and stop. 

Like I said, I learned a lot, the customer was happy and I got paid. However, NEVER again.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Angus,
my floor was 650sq/ft over an uneven concrete slab. I sympathize with you on your install. The corners seem to slightly curl so butting must have been tough. 
Wiz, while you can install floor tiles butted why would you? Something is going to fill that joint or the product sizing will burn you. 
BTW, don't be an ass. I was nailing wood before your store opened.

olzo


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

I still want to know how grout fills voids under the tile......


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

olzo55 said:


> Wiz, while you can install floor tiles butted why would you? Something is going to fill that joint or the product sizing will burn you.
> BTW, don't be an ass. I was nailing wood before your store opened.
> 
> olzo


 You would butt floor tiles upon customer request. If you didn't notice, I also stated that grout should be used.

I'm going to assume you expect me to be an ass since you added that notation. Now you have to *expect* me to be an ass with you simply because you made that notation.

I personally am a 3rd generation Carpenter and 2nd generation Tile setter. I've been nailing wood on a proffessional level for 21 years myself. I have been setting tile on a proffessional level for over 18 years.

By your earlier statement in post #5, you have shown that you knowledge of tile installation isn't up to proffessional level. 

Don't cry, they are just words.


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

JumboJack said:


> I still want to know how grout fills voids under the tile......


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## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

Ooops


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## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

What was the original question,oh yeah, can I butt em, yes you can, should you? NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!:no::no::no:


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> JumboJack: "I still want to know how grout fills voids under the tile......"


JJ the voids they are talking about are the edges and the corners under the tiles that almost always never get 100% bonded with thinset. When grout is installed properly it is pressed into the joints and will squeeze /into those voids and help to reinforce the tiles edges. It's in all the books!


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Last time I highjack this thread.

Since my professionalism has been called into question, I can't let this sit.

You may be a second or third generation so you have a start on me. But, it's how you finish. This may or may not describe you but I love to compete with the "that's the way we always do it guys". Pull out the TCNA and go to town.

I believe I answered the OP's question and the TCNA guidelines provided by Angus confirms that. Why did you add that some tiles don't need grout since it didn't pertain to the OP's product? Trying to confuse him? I think my advice is the standard for his particular tile. If you want to disagree on this point for his product then show me your pictures and the manufacturers
recommendation.

Second, I wouldn't install a product to the homeowners request if I knew it was the wrong thing to do just to get the job. I have walked away from those jobs telling the HO to pick someone else. 

Third, search on this website about having the homeowner sign a waiver for the improper installation of materials. As the pro you are still liable in most cases for the improper install. If the OP follows your original advice/suggestion about no grout then he's on the hook.

Grout does support the edges of the tile where no thinset may have gotten. A packed grout joint is going to fill below the edge and of course protect the edge from chipping. While full coverage is best, ANSI standards are 80-95% uniforn thinset coverage. Grout supports that small void that's left.

You can be whatever you "expect" to be. Just try to be a Pro about it.

olzo


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

Bud Cline said:


> JJ the voids they are talking about are the edges and the corners under the tiles that almost always never get 100% bonded with thinset. When grout is installed properly it is pressed into the joints and will squeeze /into those voids and help to reinforce the tiles edges. It's in all the books!


 Bud, while we all respect your status and knowledge, this is not the terminology that was implied concerning voids "under" the tile. Thank you for providing the proper terminology.


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## wizendwizard (Nov 11, 2007)

olzo55 said:


> Last time I highjack this thread.
> 
> Since my professionalism has been called into question, I can't let this sit.
> 
> ...


I stand by your own comments before Bud's intervention to support my case.

As soon as I am available to play games I will produce an example of tiles that are not advised to have a grout application.

BTW, I never stated they would be floor tiles.
http://www.sinksfaucetsandmore.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2526

And you stated yourself that you had installed a butted tile floor!


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## Eric Russell (Sep 22, 2009)

Thanks guys. You have all been very helpful and I believe, after reading all your answers that I will NOT but them but rather lay them with a very thin grout line. Once again, thanks


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## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

See, wasn't that easy.:laughing:


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Eric,
Though you haven't given much detail about your job (slab/wood underlayment, tile size), I will tell you how I laid my tile over a concrete slab. Later, Wiz will tell us how to cut ungrouted wall tile around electrical boxes.:whistling

My room was an uneven "L" shaped basement slab. The large part of the "L" was about 14'x40'. The smaller part about 10'x10'. There was a 3/4" hump where the two parts met.
I set control lines and snap the line with an inkline because of it's thin line.At first I hoped to use a 1/8" grout joinrt but the best size was 3/16". I used a longer trowel to help float over the slab. I also back buttered the tile.
The tiles were staggered but avoid creating a regular pattern. Mix up the starter tile size alot.

Good luck.

olzo


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