# Ditra---why or why not use it?



## Tom Struble

i bet ya didn't:whistling


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## angus242

tomstruble said:


> i bet ya didn't:whistling


True. :sad: :bangin:


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## CO762

angus242 said:


> EDIT: Did I mention the cost of the alkali resistant mesh tape :whistling


Yup. I think drywall tape is about $4/roll, available at everywhere but daltile and schulter.  Like I said, even if I don't need to, I still waterproof the joints on horizontals/90s. It's that $39/pail thing that lasts for a few showers.



> I stand by my statement, polyethylene is not a good insulating material. It will not effectively stop heat from radiating through it.


Good conversation. Few things will stop heat transfer when in contact (conductive). Interesting read:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html

Portland cement 1.73
Poly 0.1-0.22

Where to stick the heat source?










shluter says below?

who pays the electric bills?
plus, I'd imagine one can better "garontee" their product if no other ones are involved....thus stick it below ours.

But that "garontee" has little impact on the end consumer when products are installed correctly and logically.


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## angus242

CO762 said:


> Yup. I think drywall tape is about $4/roll, available at everywhere but daltile and schulter.  Like I said, even if I don't need to, I still waterproof the joints on horizontals/90s. It's that $39/pail thing that lasts for a few showers.


I'll be honest, I have no idea what you're talking about. :sad:


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## CO762

angus242 said:


> I'll be honest, I have no idea what you're talking about. :sad:


Funny, my woman just said something along the same lines.
Sorry if I'm rambling, but I'm tired.
"I'm tired, but I don't want to go to sleep. I want to stay awake and enjoy my being tired because when I go to sleep, I zonk out."
"Huh?"
"I don't have to work tomorrow, so---"
"Goodnight"
Went that conversation.

Mebbe time for me to shut this show down, have another glass of wine and finish watching iron chef america. I just learned you must cook french fries twice. Didn't know that.

:chef:


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## HS345

CO said:


> Yup. I think drywall tape is about $4/roll


Soooo, you're using regular drywall mesh with CBU? Nice.


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## angus242

HS345 said:


> Soooo, you're using regular drywall mesh with CBU? Nice.


That's what it sounded like. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt but if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck....:whistling


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## Greg from K/W

Ok I just took the Schluter course. They told us a few things that are missed in this thread.

1 Place your electrical floor heating under the Ditra. It prevents damage to it if you want to change tiles later. 

2 Unmodified thin set is what $10 to $14 a bag Can verses $15 to $20 a bag for modified so the materials are cheaper. Whats the problem? Unmodified is not a problem Like it was said paste 2 pieces of marble or porcaline togeather and try to get them apart. It will never happen.

3 If you are water proofing the walls to then you only have to run the Schluter down the walls and onto the Ditra 2" for a water tight seal. Whats so hard about that?

4 If you are using their trim pieces you don't even have to caulk the joints in the tile. They are already water tight.


One other thing they said is that Schluter tests things way beyond what is needed. They don't want people doing something that is questionable. They showed us the testing they do on assemblies. It goes beyond ridiculous to say the least. When they say you can do somethign they know it is above and beyond what you need to do. You will not have a call back because they told you something and it failed.


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## CO762

HS345 said:


> Soooo, you're using regular drywall mesh with CBU? Nice.


I call it DW tape because it looks like it. Just came back from errands and now they do sell "drywall tape" there now--they have more stuff on display in front, right behind the row of seats you wait until your number is called. Don't know how much it cost as they rarely put pricing on anything. But at home depot, it's $3.97 IIRC. With drywall tape I don't separate out the paper from the mesh, tho I use both. I'll admit I'm lazy with terminolgy, but I really don't need to be specific.

PS, if I say it's a "mud", chances are it's not either. It's either drypack or the sandtopping and sand mix I usually do. Sometimes we call thinset "mud". We never use the word "mortar" unless it's got the word "mixer" after it, but still we usually drop the "mortar". When I glue on tile, it's using mastic, not elmers or any other glue. I think when mastic first came out that's what it was called and the old skool guy I sometimes work with got me into that habit. Same thing for "Glue and screw" down a floor (CBU). No elmers there and sometimes not even screws--roofing nails.

Boy, this turned into another p%[email protected]#$%# match.


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## Splinter

Why are you guys even arguing with CO? He's displayed his lack of knowledge so often, you may as well fight with a 2 year old. 

Drywall tape? There is a fiberglass drywall mesh that has no place in a tile installation. The alkali resistant mesh is considerably more expensive. 

Ditra blocks heat transfer? The air ribs will allow the heat to transfer easier to the mortar furthest from the heat tubes creating a much more evenly heated floor. 

Carpet glue for Ditra? I'd like to see where it says that in the installation instructions. I have a few copies, I'll mail you one if you'd like. (Well, no not really, I dont like you) 

Doesnt like troweling over Ditra because it's not flat like backerboard? Seriously? What's the big issue? Carpel-tunnel? Stop stroking off so much. 

Needs more than one mortar? I use two different mortars for backerboard installations too. An inexpensive thinset for under the board, and a quality one above for tile installation. The mortar under backerboard is NOT meant to bond it to the floor. It's there to provide even support under every inch of the board. Ever hear the saying, "Screws hold it down, thinset holds it up"?

Ditra tearouts are easy? I too pulled one up recently after customer changed their mind. Luckily I only had to remove the cut tiles around the perimeter of the installation to extend the new tile floor into another room. Tile and Ditra was down for 5 days and it took a hammer and chisel to break the porcelain off the Ditra, and more chiseling and a grinder to get the Ditra off the plywood subfloor. Maybe you're just not installing it correctly. 

Angus, Greg, and Greg.. Forget this guy already. A good contractor would want to learn about *all* the different products out there. He obviously doesnt have a clue, and doesnt want to learn.


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## Greg from K/W

YA ok why isn't he banned from the site then if he is that much of a block head?


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## angus242

Ignorance & spite aren't punishable offenses.


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## HS345

You're right Alex, I don't know what came over me. As you know, I'm usually not the argumentative type.  

Good post BTW.


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## Splinter

Greg said:


> As you know, I'm usually not the argumentative type.


Yeah, you Obama voters are pretty passive... :laughing:


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## HS345

Yes, truth be told, us Obama voters really aren't all that bright.


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## angus242

HS345 said:


> Yes, truth be told, us Obama voters really aren't all that bright.


But you sure are a bunch of bots!


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## Splinter

HS345 said:


> Yes, truth be told, us Obama voters really aren't all that bright.


Where's that smack-you-upside-the-head smiley when you need it?













good one though... you win this time...


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## CO762

I step back....yet....so OK, I'm game. I guess this is like the "my tile saw is blue so it's better than a yellow!" thread. On the bright side, I'm not working as of this afternoon and 24 is on later. Kill time in 24 fantasy or yakking here? Looks like ya'll will get the nod. 



Splinter said:


> alkali resistant mesh is considerably more expensive.


if four bucks is a major price break to you, oh well. Can't argue with that.
I hope you also use redguard as that's $39 a pail, far cheaper than any OEM schtuff. 



> Ditra blocks heat transfer?


I guess you also missed it. I dunno. I never used the word "block", but two schulter proponents used it in response, even after I further elaborated on it, complete with a link to engineering heat transfer spec's of different materials.



> The air ribs will allow the heat to transfer easier to the mortar furthest from the heat tubes creating a much more evenly heated floor.


I guess either you didn't read anything in my above post or you don't understand physics, even if you didn't click on the conductivity of materials link I posted.

Something easier for ya. Put yourself in an unheated house when it's 20 degrees outside. Wearing a Tshirt and shorts, put a plugged in heating pad on a chair 5 feet away from you. Wait for an hour. 

Now, in the same situation, put the heating pad on your chest and wrap your arms around it. If you don't have the time for that, just toss the heating pad off the chair and sit down in it.

If you still don't comprehend the difference "convection" and "conduction" well, I have some 10.00 a roll drywall tape to sell you. I'll paint it orange and charge you double because all else will FAIL! :laughing:



> I'd like to see where it says that in the installation instructions.


speaking of things...Funny you mention OEM specifications....Just a quickie, the first one I saw after a zuulu search...



> Read and understand data sheet and Tile Council of America
> (TCA) specifications completely before beginning installation.
> Follow applicable industry standards.
> SURFACE PREPARATION
> Prior to application, surface must be clean, dry, free from loose
> materials, oil, grease, sealers, curing compounds, waxes and all
> other surface contaminants that may inhibit proper bond.
> Mechanically roughen smooth or polished concrete, terrazzo
> or existing tile by scarifying or shot-blasting. A surface profile
> similar to a light broom finish or CSP 4 as defined by ICRI
> (International Concrete Repair Institute) is recommended
> 
> http://www.bostik-us.com/Files/TDSfiles/SL150.pdf


So, do you do your own shotblasting? I hope you don't use "acid etching" as that not only degrades the strenght of the concrete, but it also doesn't provide nearly the anchor profile required by a somewhat "mud" (thinset, SLC). 

What kind of machines do you prefer or material? Don't let someone sell you on grit versus shot as grit, tho is angular, will quickly round their edges and turn into shot. Either way, the profile you need will be satisfied as long as the profile doesn't exceed around a 40 mesh. BTW, the latter figure is my "guesstimate" (so feel free to focus on it and attack it). 

If you don't shotblast your unbrushed concrete, it will fail. :laughing:
But seriously this time, not just stealing phrases from schluter professionals....notice how easy thinset comes off of unshotblasted concrete? Have you ever shotblasted concrete? Have you ever set on shotblasted concrete? Do you not read any manufacture's literature? :laughing:



> I dont like you


Dang it! I was counting on you, man! 



> Doesnt like troweling over Ditra because it's not flat like backerboard? Seriously? What's the big issue?


Yeah, it may be hard to believe, but yes. I don't like the thunk thunk thunk of it. I suppose I could learn to limp wrist it... 



> Tile and Ditra was down for 5 days and it took a hammer and chisel...


:laughing:
No wonder you think "alkali resistent DRYWALL mesh TAPE" is so much more expensive. :laughing:

OK, this is another thread going nowhere.

Anyone want to gather around a campfire and vote for "who's most popular" yet? :jester: Group hug!!!!!


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## Splinter

Whaddup Dawg... 

I brought up the need for alkali resistant mesh because you were rambling about $4 drywall mesh.. Just wanted you to know the difference and that the right stuff costs more. 

Sorry, I still dont like you.


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## CO762

Splinter said:


> Whaddup Dawg...
> Sorry, I still dont like you.


that's OK.
I just learned bono is on this site, ...and he doesn't like me either! 

nline2long:

OK, mebbe I don't care for him. Either way, they have great icons here. That makes it worth it alone.

24 is on. Time for nuclear fantasy.....:nuke:

Great icon thingies.

Later tater


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## HS345

Alex, my brother, I thought we weren't going to feed the TROLL anymore. :1eye:


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## charimon

CO762 said:


> Good conversation. Few things will stop heat transfer when in contact (conductive). Interesting read:
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html
> 
> Portland cement 1.73
> Poly 0.1-0.22


Interesting but you are not quite right here.
Portland cement is actually 0.29 portland based mortar is 1.73
it is polyetheline not Polypropylene
Polyethylene HD 0.42 - 0.51

Gypsum or plaster board 0.17 Think Densheild
Concrete, light 0.42 Think Hardi backer
Cork, regranulated 0.044
Plywood 0.13
Porcelain 1.5
Air 0.024
It would seem from a closer look at the data you have provided, Ditra actually is not bad at thermal transfer. So if you have a plywood subfloor @ 0.13 and Air 0.024 below and Ditra at 0.42 with Porcelain 1.5 on top (of the infloor heat mat) I am betting that most of the heat is going UP.
Thanks for the link
Craig

PS Personaly when I install infloor heat, I self level with ARDEX and set directly on it.


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## Anderson

I have learned some good stuff on Ditra, but I have a quick question, regarding kerdi. 
How do you seal around the shower mixer, assuming you have the kerdi on sheetrock or hardi board.
Do you guys go ontop of sheetrock if you are using kerdi or belt and braces with the Hardi and then kerdi
Thanks


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## angus242

Anderson said:


> I have learned some good stuff on Ditra, but I have a quick question, regarding kerdi.
> How do you seal around the shower mixer, assuming you have the kerdi on sheetrock or hardi board.
> Do you guys go ontop of sheetrock if you are using kerdi or belt and braces with the Hardi and then kerdi
> Thanks



I use this little gem around the shower head supply line:









and this around the mixer valve:









That's Kerdi-PS & Kerdi-MV


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## HS345

The two items Angus posted are an excellent way to treat the valve, and shower head penetrations. Plus, they are now included with the Kerdi Drain. Of course, that could be why the price of the Kerdi Drains shot up a couple of months ago. :001_unsure:


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## Anderson

I saw these irems on there web site but havent seen them in person. I am going to check it out today. They look like a round piece of kerdi with duct tape on it.


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## jarvis design

Anderson said:


> I saw these irems on there web site but havent seen them in person. I am going to check it out today. They look like a round piece of kerdi with duct tape on it.


 
That "duct tape" is actually a rubber seal!!


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## Anderson

I went today and picked up the 2010 pricing catalog, also met a really helpful guy at tile warehouse, he had been to the school and said it was really great.
Also that they used to be able to recommend a contractor and although you had to pay for the school you got re-emburst in Schluter products up to the value of the class.
However caus of economy they are currently not doing it, he tookk my details to put in when they start again.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## HS345

Are you talking about the two day workshop?

I've been to it, didn't have to pay anything.


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## jarvis design

HS345 said:


> Are you talking about the two day workshop?
> 
> I've been to it, didn't have to pay anything.


 
They usually pay for your hotel room and meals/beverages :drink:


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## HS345

jarvis design said:


> They usually pay for your hotel room and meals/beverages :drink:


Yep, I've never heard of anyone having to pay for Schluter school. :thumbsup:


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## Anderson

Thats what I though when I was looking at it on there site. The guy in the tile store told me that you payed for it, and then would be reimbursed in there product. Lucky he didnt ask me for any money.


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## Greg from K/W

I was just at one. THey paid for everything except the supper I had the night before and the snacks i had at night. They served prime rib the first lunch I had. It was just wow. I also got a tool bag that would retail about $100. and they send a certificate and trowels to you after you are done. It was incredible. So much information I hardly could stand it. I roughly figured out my little trip with my uncle cost them about $4000 for the two of us. It was incredible to say the least.


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## katoman

Hey Greg, I was there too. I was the old guy with the caulking all over his pants.:thumbup:

As Greg said, awesome course, I highly recommend this to everyone. Get it while it's free guys.


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## JT Hworks

I took the class, and they paid for everything. I am sold on the Shluter shower system. I have put in 4 showers since the class and we really like it. My question about Ditra is, I usually tear up VCT before I lay tile. I have a job with VCT on a slab about 300sq.'. The VCT is down solid. What would you think of scuffing the VCT and primeing it and then puting down Ditra. To me it seems like it would work fine. Ditra is a newer product for us, and we haven't used it on anything other than basic installs. Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with a situation llike this. Thanks, JT.


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## angus242

JT Hworks said:


> I took the class, and they paid for everything. I am sold on the Shluter shower system. I have put in 4 showers since the class and we really like it. My question about Ditra is, I usually tear up VCT before I lay tile. I have a job with VCT on a slab about 300sq.'. The VCT is down solid. What would you think of scuffing the VCT and primeing it and then puting down Ditra. To me it seems like it would work fine. Ditra is a newer product for us, and we haven't used it on anything other than basic installs. Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with a situation llike this. Thanks, JT.


Ditra can be installed over vinyl. Read page #9 of the Ditra Handbook for instructions.

Personally, I'd remove it first.


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## PrecisionFloors

JT Hworks said:


> I took the class, and they paid for everything. I am sold on the Shluter shower system. I have put in 4 showers since the class and we really like it. My question about Ditra is, I usually tear up VCT before I lay tile. I have a job with VCT on a slab about 300sq.'. The VCT is down solid. What would you think of scuffing the VCT and primeing it and then puting down Ditra. To me it seems like it would work fine. Ditra is a newer product for us, and we haven't used it on anything other than basic installs. Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with a situation llike this. Thanks, JT.


I wouldn't. No saying it wouldn't work....could work fine and last forever. 300sf of VCT ain't that hard to take up, even bonded well....adds maybe a day's worth of work. Not worth the risk imo.


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## JT Hworks

Thanks guys, I know in class they said that you can put Ditra over Vinyl, but they said they suggested nailing the vinyl down if I remember right. The slab was what had me wondering. Deep down I thought removing the VCT was right, thats how we have always done it. I know Shluter systems seems to take pride on making jobs easier and faster. It seems like several VCT would have to pop to cause a problem, and even then the weight of the tile and ditraset would keep everything solid. I know I will sleep better if we pull the VCT. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Thanks JT.


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## Greg from K/W

katoman said:


> Hey Greg, I was there too. I was the old guy with the caulking all over his pants.:thumbup:
> 
> As Greg said, awesome course, I highly recommend this to everyone. Get it while it's free guys.



Ya wondered when you where going to say Hi lol. It was a great class and the prime rib for lunch the first day was awesome. :clap: Just needed horse radish and some nice red wine to go with it.


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