# Mannington Sobella - Anyone share the same problems?



## FlooringChick (Aug 18, 2008)

Mannington Sobella Supreme is a wonderful hit with pattern, style and of course it's cushion.

When it was first introduced, instructions were to let the pressure-sensitive adhesive 'flash-off' first, and of course it could be sold as a full-spread OR loose lay method, although full-spread was recommended in kitchen areas.

Now, after we and hundreds of other retailers experiencing problems with bubbles, we were then told by the people in the know (Mannington) at a special Sobella clinic the installation method has changed. It should always be full-spread and to install WET versus the orginal flash-off method.

Also, it's recommended leaving small expansion gaps to avoid "Pinch points" - apparently that is a cause of all this bubbling and the pros from Mannington acknowledge it has been an ongoing problem.

So, today I was told by the head honches, that in a huge new house I'm dealing with (over 200 SY of Sobella), that the kitchen cabinets must NOT sit on this floor. The customer will also have a large island topped with Quartz, so this definitely would have to be cut around. This is not acceptable to my clients and I can't say I blame them. With a brand new home, I couldn't imagine cutting around the island or adjusting the cabinets to accomodate this floor.:furious:

I really love this product, but it's getting harder and harder to keep liking it. Has anyone else Sobella issues to share?


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

IF the product is full-spread I don't see the worry with top setting the cabinets. I have pulled and re-set many islands after full spreading Flexi-Tec, Tarkett Fiber Floor, and IVC floors (essentially the same products). I think they are getting their instructions between full-spread and floating mixed up. I wish they never would have said it could be floated in the first damned place......actually is ignorant if you know _anything _ about resilient floors and their intended usage.


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## FlooringChick (Aug 18, 2008)

*Sobella*

PF Guy:

I got a FIRM no from the Branch Manager of the distributor as well as calling Mannington's top gun technical guy about putting kitchen cabinets on the full-spread glued Sobella. They will no way guarantee a problem free situation. So I guess I lose a 200 SY Sobella order.

2 or 3 top notch installers here in town, whom also attended the Sobella seminar and who have carved out excellent reputations for continuing education and technique all had problems with this floor bubbling several days after installation. The main reason for this problem was the release of the product with different guidance then than now ie: flashing off, but now WET...

The product cannot be installed 'tight' and I was told that many everyday things can cause "pinch points", which in turn cause problems, even with full spread adhesive (we will NEVER loose lay it here after the pros at the seminar mentioned it's NOT a good idea in most normal situations)

I am so frustrated that customers have to bear the brunt of a problem, because the finer points of product and adhesives are not yet fine tuned.


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

FlooringChick said:


> So, today I was told by the head honches, that in a huge new house I'm dealing with (over 200 SY of Sobella), that the kitchen cabinets must NOT sit on this floor. The customer will also have a large island topped with Quartz, so this definitely would have to be cut around. This is not acceptable to my clients and I can't say I blame them. With a brand new home, I couldn't imagine cutting around the island or adjusting the cabinets to accomodate this floor.:furious:



Mis-specified product for the intended installation.

The guy that sold the flooring did not know the product well enough to communicate it's requirements. Those requirements have been there since the product was brought to the market. Nothing new, or change.

All you speak, is old news. It is guys installing that flooring, just like they did flooring sheet flooring 5 years ago. Things change, and installers don't get the education they need.


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## FlooringChick (Aug 18, 2008)

*Sobella*

But Floordude:

Here is the thing: The manufacturer is hell-bent on getting the product out and it comes with installation guidelines. They DO read them.

Then we have problems.

Then they set up an installation clinic with revisions to how you should put this in. (Erase the old guidelines)

Now, I am talking about top-notch guys who WANT to learn and WANT to change. I know some of the installers you refer to - the ones who don't embrace change or any new techniques. The guys I have been dealing with only want a top job done and are still shaking their heads and have followed every single recommendation. I leave the non-learners at the door.

I just didn't want you to think that these guys are hackers. They have been accomodating new techinques for ages and do really embrace them and are happy to go to clinics and learn.

I just don't understand the logic here.

FC


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

FlooringChick said:


> But Floordude:
> 
> Here is the thing: The manufacturer is hell-bent on getting the product out and it comes with installation guidelines. They DO read them.
> 
> ...


Trapping air, is the main cause of bubbles, then you have off gassing, because even though they say get into it wet, there is still a slight open time to off gas. I squeegee, the sheet from the middle out, with a wonder board, before I roll the floor and don't have problems.


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## Mike Costello (Aug 1, 2004)

I know Tarkette started off using pressure sensitive and now recommends the prduct be full spread with standard felt back vinyl adhesive.

I have had great luck with te full spread as well as perimeter gluing three sides of the floor


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## FlooringChick (Aug 18, 2008)

*Full Spread instead of pressure sensitive*

Thanks Mike...

Definitely worth a try to use a premium adhesive instead of pressure sensitive. I believe another retailer in this City has tried that, as they were having problems as well. It seems to be doing OK, although they are using a different flooring mfg. glue, which I think is a tad risky due to warranty purposes.

I' m hoping for a smaller job to try this out with the Mannington goods, before I get to the 200 plus SY job coming up.

Appreciate that input as well.


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## gideond (May 17, 2007)

I sell a lot of IVC products and some Tarkett. Tarkett is still sending me pressure sensitive glues. Regardless, we see the bubbles in just about every job we do with IVC. And by the next day they are gone. The floor tightens itself up overnight. That's not saying that huge bubbles will just disappear.


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## ClassicCarpets (Aug 28, 2008)

I talked with the national installer with IVC and the tell us only use 5080 parabond


Then they took it off the list because its to aggressive.

Parabond changed the chemicle base and then IVC put it back on the list.


As far as flashing is concerned, I had an installer install flextec and didnt let it flash completly and had great sucess with it, no bubbles.

We have installed it since then, same method and success all the way.


Sobella and IVC claims that the goods doesnt contract nor Expand .. any comments on that?


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## ClassicCarpets (Aug 28, 2008)

FlooringChick said:


> Thanks Mike...
> 
> Definitely worth a try to use a premium adhesive instead of pressure sensitive. I believe another retailer in this City has tried that, as they were having problems as well. It seems to be doing OK, although they are using a different flooring mfg. glue, which I think is a tad risky due to warranty purposes.
> 
> ...


 
I dont know if it would be a good Idea to use Premium adhesive over Pressure Sensitive.

Down the road if repairs need to made, how are you going to detach-reattach?


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## Mike Costello (Aug 1, 2004)

Premium adhesive instead of pressure sensitive, To be honest I dont worry about easy removal of vinyls I install. I want them to stay down.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

ClassicCarpets said:


> I talked with the national installer with IVC and the tell us only use 5080 parabond
> 
> 
> Then they took it off the list because its to aggressive.
> ...


Yeah....

Bull**** :no:


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## gideond (May 17, 2007)

It's got fiberglass in it. Of course it expands and contracts. What would be the point in leaving a gap around the edge if it didn't expand? 

We use Apac 610 on just about all IVC jobs. We've used some Parabond 5080 as well with no issues. I've been told by my sales rep that the key it to use a 1/4" foam roller pad to put the glue down very thin. Supposedly they claim that too much adhesive causes off-gassing that can't get through the matial and thus creates bubbles. Of course their instructions spec a 3/8" nap paint roller so is the rep right or the instructions?


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## ClassicCarpets (Aug 28, 2008)

gideond said:


> It's got fiberglass in it. Of course it expands and contracts. What would be the point in leaving a gap around the edge if it didn't expand?
> 
> We use Apac 610 on just about all IVC jobs. We've used some Parabond 5080 as well with no issues. I've been told by my sales rep that the key it to use a 1/4" foam roller pad to put the glue down very thin. Supposedly they claim that too much adhesive causes off-gassing that can't get through the matial and thus creates bubbles. Of course their instructions spec a 3/8" nap paint roller so is the rep right or the instructions?


 
Right ...

Or ... a worn out trowel will work.

I've had an issue with an installer using a 1/16'' notch .. to much glue.


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## ClassicCarpets (Aug 28, 2008)

PrecisionFloors said:


> Yeah....
> 
> Bull**** :no:


 
Thats what I say.


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## Mike Costello (Aug 1, 2004)

I have done about 1000 yds of both Armstrongs "loose lay" and Tarkettes fiber floor as well as some 13 foot wide stuff one of my retailers carries.

I used Henrys 356 with it and squeegeed like was mentioned. So far no callbacks.

I kind of treat it as a non porous install with the understanding that the small gas bubbles will go away .

When I use to skim existing vinyl with Armsrong embossing leveler, felt backed goods would have about a dozen small gas bubbles left after a thorough rolling. They went away.

The customer is usually not a believer till the next day.

I let the adhesive flash just long enough to be able to still work bubbles out and get good transfer.


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## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

Don't know if IVC expands and contracts or not. But your walls expand and contract. All wood surfaces do.


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## ClassicCarpets (Aug 28, 2008)

I believe everything expands and contracts, at least to a certian point.


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

IVC and all Glass back will expand and contract. Sometimes it is the metal transitions that can pinch as well if used. There is a specific way of installing metal flatbar.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

rusty baker said:


> Don't know if IVC expands and contracts or not. But your walls expand and contract. All wood surfaces do.


Rusty, it sounds like you have been drinkin the "tech" (what an overused term...most of these guys couldn't find their ass with both hands and Liberace's help) rep's kool-aid again :laughing:

I assure you it expands and contracts with temperature change....to not do so would go against physics. All the marketing hype in the world doesn't change how that damned apple fell :whistling


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## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

I don't look for IVC to last a long time on the market anyway. One of the local box stores sells some so thin that you can tear it in half with your bare hands, Even with the thicker stuff, when the consumer realizes if they drag a chair across it, it will tear. Most won't buy it twice.


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

rusty baker said:


> I don't look for IVC to last a long time on the market anyway. One of the local box stores sells some so thin that you can tear it in half with your bare hands, Even with the thicker stuff, when the consumer realizes if they drag a chair across it, it will tear. Most won't buy it twice.


Doubt it. 
Not sure what the big box quality is, but this stuff is getting much thicker. Saw it at convention. Can't rip it very easily at all. At the very least it is much harder to rip than felt back.
This product has skyrocketed to levels I have not seen since Pergo hit the Market.


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## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

It is being pushed here to DIYers to loose lay. Most of them don't follow the instructions and are having problems.


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## Mike Costello (Aug 1, 2004)

Remeber when Pergo was first introduced? It was touted as a DIY product

I think it was a year later they were making installers take training and get Pergo Certified to put in.

I think I spent thousands of dollars on clamps , straps, wedges, suction cups, ect.

Same with this stuff, your better off letting a guy that can pattern scribe put it in.


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## gideond (May 17, 2007)

Since it's hit the market stateside almost every manufacturer has changed their installation specifications to recommend a full spread installation. They are seeing issues with loose lay far too often. IVC is a nice product and has the best feel of all the ones I've seen because they blow the foam to inflate it and give it more cushion. Many of the others like Tarkett do not blow the foam, which gives less cushion, but a denser higher performance backing. I think the stuff is still in evolution for this market. We have to find out sweet spot between performance and comfort. Now if we could just get the US companies to stop cutting the extra off the edge to get it down to 12' widths I'd be happier. Most people go for IVC because it's 13'2" width helps a lot with oddball room layouts around here. Tarkett's is made 13'2" and then cut down to 12', which is just stupid.


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## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

Flexitec is still selling theirs loose-lay. They have a good quality that is marketed to flooring stores and cheaper stuff they are selling to lumber yards for DIYers.


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## ClassicCarpets (Aug 28, 2008)

One of the biggest things consumers must know is that they have to put felt pads under there chair legs, couch legs, etc.


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## bwanaclyde (Mar 2, 2010)

*loose lay versus full spread*

We install the IVC and Mannington resilient floors pretty much every day. The IVC installation guide says that loose laying is not recommended for rooms over 12 square meters (about 15 square yards) and that any bigger rooms should be fully adhered. I wish all the salespeople knew this because "loose lay" is a very operative term with them, and then we go to the job and have to tell the customers loose lay won't work for them.
As for the installation, Mannington recommends laying in the flooring on the wet adhesive (MT711) whereas IVC recommends laying in the flooring after the adhesive tacks up (they recommend several different adhesive types). 
If Mannington is still recommending not installing cabinets on top of the flooring, they need to send a memo to all the sales reps, because we install it in kitchens all the time.


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## geospec (May 23, 2009)

Please read my thread

Air waves under new vinyl flooring


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## Zetti (May 8, 2010)

not a huge fan on sobella, had lots and lots of problems. its not really a losse lay floor if you have more then one seams you have to full spread glue and i think anything over 15 SY. also you look at the backing just rub your thumb down on it , it just comes right off. looked like they just put cheap glue on the back. but it like to bubble up and move around lots


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## geospec (May 23, 2009)

You can hit me with a 4x4 and I will not touch it again!


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## kurtzzzz (May 25, 2011)

*sobela installations*

I've been playing with these floors since the time they almost came out, tried different things, so far, using pressure sensitive adhesive on going over existing vinyl, it should be rolled on, not troweled and lt should be tacked up to lay down, or the pressure sensitive won't tack up at all(had it happened pulled it back 3 weeks later, (let it tack up and reset) porous surfaces such as wood or over new underlayment, you can trowel it on(VCT trowel), let it flash just a little and set it partially wet, lay it in very carefully to avoid big bubbles and roll with a standard vinyl 80 lb roller. Haven't had one problem ever learning it this way so far. As far the space around the edges only means that with pressure adhesive it will buckle if cut in too tight, as far as growing " its not", once it glued. Common sense is what needs to be used here. The extra premium full adhesive might work, also chemical reaction to vinyl may occur. then try to get it up someday, 1/8 vinyl stuck rock solid. Not good either. I have over 37 years vinyl experience and actually like these floors, especially the SHD products, except for the weight, but it flows to the floor great, cuts in great, seams up nice, and I like Congoleums 106 2 part system for locking them together(great seam sealer even tho we are supposed to use manningtons, every since they had issues(mannington) back in the nineties, I found congoleums 2 part sealers to work perfect on most floors just fine, They have the best applicator bottles also. Another thing also I read on here if your setting a heavy island on these floors, if you would have a problem, set the cabinet, take a sharp knife and relief cut around the cabinet sitting in place(take the pressure off and keep it from buckling it that would happen, in which I haven't seen that, anyway hope this knowledge helps someone.


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## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

I don't do much IVC anymore, but when I do, I call and get the latest installation instructions. Snce I first installed some, they have changed back and forth on the seam sealer. Have said to use a trowel or paint roller for adhesive, have said to roll or just broom the vinyl. I have several sets on install instructions and they are all different.


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