# running 220 for 125 feet



## fast pasquale (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm doing a 4 suite apt complex (Hardwood floor refinishing). My machine runs on a 220 line and the closest one is approx 125 feet away. Can i run 125 feet of wire this length without damaging my machine? I've been told that running over 100 feet of wire, my machine would lose a handful of voltage and could blow my engine on my sander?? Is there any merit to this?? If this is not a problem what gauge wire should i purchase? I usually bring my own 30 amp breaker, then clip onto the ground in the box. Thanks so much....i'll swap info for floor sanding techniques...:laughing:


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

To do a voltage drop calculation we need the amperage of the equipment as well as the voltage.

Also how to you clip on to the power? It sounds like something very unsafe. Especially since you said that you clip onto the ground in the box. This part tells me that you have no clue as to what you are hooking up to, beyond knowing that it has not killed you yet.


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## fast pasquale (Mar 4, 2007)

19 amps on the machine. I can take a reading tomorrow to see what the dryer receptacle is.


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## daveselectric (Oct 20, 2006)

fast pasquale said:


> I'm doing a 4 suite apt complex (Hardwood floor refinishing). My machine runs on a 220 line and the closest one is approx 125 feet away. Can i run 125 feet of wire this length without damaging my machine? I've been told that running over 100 feet of wire, my machine would lose a handful of voltage and could blow my engine on my sander?? Is there any merit to this?? If this is not a problem what gauge wire should i purchase? I usually bring my own 30 amp breaker, then clip onto the ground in the box. Thanks so much....i'll swap info for floor sanding techniques...:laughing:


I know exactly what you're talking about. I leave the dryer plug hot all the time for you floor guys. 125 feet is fine as long as you're using #10 copper conductors in your extension cord.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I always love how the floor guys come in and just have their way with panel. Most of them DO put the panel cover back after they're finished, but that's not the point. The point is that the flooring contractor needs to contact the electrician (or sub one out), instead of having an inexperienced floor tech attempt to make a lethal electrical connection.

Leaving the 240V elec dryer line live is a good idea but not all floor subs "splurge" for the male cord end.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

If you're 'clipping' on to utilize any of the current carrying conductors(hots or neutral if there is one) then you're defeating the purpose of using an oversized cord because if it's not a solid/bolted connection then all your voltage drop will be in that one point.

You're not off base asking about voltage drop and extension cord length. What kills the motor is overheating due to lack of power. In the power equation you have amps squared times resistance. Resistance being the length and gauge of your cord and amps being what the tool/motor uses, but the key ingredient of the equation is the amps being that it's squared in the equation.


Now after the lesson.....What do you know about sanding a travertine floor?


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## fast pasquale (Mar 4, 2007)

Sparky.. thank you so much. Travertine??.. I do wood floor my brother. If your looking to clean a travertine floor i would recommend a 16in buffer with a red pad (no sanding!!) using a high quality travertine cleaner bought at any tile distributor. If you lived by me i would let you use my buffer at no charge.. not sure where you reside though.
Sparky.. what is my best option here without peeing everyone off due to my lack of electrical knowledge. I've been told by some very expierenced flooring contractors to get some 10-3 wire and purchase a booster that way i could run a lenght over 100 feet. Im not able to purchase a booster right now. Could i get away with just getting the wire and plugging into the dryer receptacle.. or is the answer just not that easy??? Thanks so much. I
know that when other trades come into this forum and ask stupid questions like my self, people get upset.. and i understand and I am aware that they are looking out for my safety and that is appreciated. Im on a flooring forum where h/o's sneak on and i try to hae patience with them as you are with me. Grant it, it would be difficult to kill yourself sanding floors. Thanks


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Pasquale... do you feel there is a market for such "boosters" for floor sanders? If so, I'll build you one for free if you can sell 10. No joke.


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## fast pasquale (Mar 4, 2007)

md... You would be surprised how many flooring contractors use them. I'm still trying to figure if i need one. Most flooring distributors sell them from $300 to over $900.. I would only be intrested in purchasing 1. I don't think I could get rid of any for you also.. but thanks for asking.
What would you do if you were me in this predicament?? I will take your advice.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

fast pasquale said:


> What would you do if you were me in this predicament?? I will take your advice.


I don't know, to say it plainly. 

I do know that some flooring contractors have asked the GC, who have in turn asked me, to provide with with certain power provisions. I always provide whatever the floor guy needs temporarily, at no additional cost to the GC, as a goodwill gesture. I'd rather set up a temporary receptacle for the floor sander for free than to have the floor guy use clips in my panel. It only takes me a short drive and a few minutes work to set up something proper.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

fast pasquale said:


> md... You would be surprised how many flooring contractors use them. I'm still trying to figure if i need one. Most flooring distributors sell them from $300 to over $900.


Wow! We're talking about maybe 125-150 dollars in real cost in parts.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Pasquale, from the numbers you gave your voltage drop is near 6 volts. thats only a difference of 2.5%. As a wireman I'm not allowed to run a branch circuit with more than a 3% voltage drop. But most motors are safe with a 10% variation in rated voltage.

In other words you're safe without a booster, though I am curious how MD would build one



even if you ran a #12 gauge cord you would have less than 4% drop at that length. I would say that your still safe there


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## fast pasquale (Mar 4, 2007)

md... i believe floorstyle.com sellls them if you want to check out their site. I know some of them allow you to "dial in" the numbers you need and this raises the cost. Appreciate the effort.
Sparky.. what wire should i run?? 10-3? and what is 10-3 while we are it it.. Im assuming 10 is the gauge and 3 is the amount of wires provided?? Anything else i should know while wire shopping? Is this available at H Depot or should i go to an electrical supply house??? You are not the first person to tell me that same scenario.. so i'll go with it.. Thanks so much!.. appreciate the patience with me..
Md.. site note.. i have seriously tamed down my involvement with electrical work.. mostly due to those nasty pics you posted ...:sad: ... thanks again..


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Sparky Joe said:


> In other words you're safe without a booster, though I am curious how MD would build one


You're a smart guy, Joe. How do you normally boost the voltage when necessary?


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

10/3 is what you want, it will have a black white and green inside it, make sure the green is in the right place when you wire it up, the black and white don't matter so much because they are both being used as hots.
Home Depot will have the wire but not have the cord caps and you'll find much better deals at the supply house. Tell them you need a male and female cord caps for 30 amp 240 volt(non twist lock). In fact draw a little picture of your receptacle that you plug into to make sure you get the right thing.
as for the cable itself, it will be pricey you might want to call around. I'm pretty sure what you need is called SO cord, although SJ may work fine too.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> You're a smart guy, Joe. How do you normally boost the voltage when necessary?


with a buck boost transformer, but I imagine they're more than 150 bucks


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Sparky Joe said:


> with a buck boost transformer, but I imagine they're more than 150 bucks


Hey, they comes in lots of sizes. Just put in three for a cooler that were only 30 bucks each.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

So what type of cable would you use MD to make the proposed extension cord above? SO would be a first choice and SJ is cheaper but not as heavy duty(or as heavy). Or is there some other type of cable just for an extension cord application that I don't even know of?


And are those buck boost's really as tricky to hook up as I've heard? And don't they have a minimum of 12 volt boost(or buck)? such as a 12/24 or 16/32?


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## frenchelectrica (Sep 26, 2003)

Sparky Joe said:


> And are those buck boost's really as tricky to hook up as I've heard? And don't they have a minimum of 12 volt boost(or buck)? such as a 12/24 or 16/32?


 useally yes can be 12/24 or 16/32 volt diffrence but you have to know the supply voltage and the voltage going to the machine .

there are few single phase motor can work pretty well on 208 volts on some area which they only have that voltage avabile. But as i will remind ya real quick the code get pretty tricky with buck/boost transformer .

the cost of the B/B is not very expensive but you have to know the VA of the line current to the B/B transformer.

I am not sure which website have easy chart to show you to get the correct verison [ there is at least 20 diffrent way to get diffrent voltage as needed ].

I will give you a quick example 19 amp @ 240 volt normally and the supply voltage is at 208 volts

one example of the link 

http://www.squared.com/us/products/transformers.nsf/unid/C82FCAA16A8A5A0285256A5D006A234A/$file/buckandboost.htm

and real caluation here:

http://www.bulletproof.com/jdesignerpro/transformercalculator.html


I know it get pretty compated with the forumla to figure it out in correct way 

I will put in more details later on the time unless other members join in and help fill it in for me as well .


Merci , Marc


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Buck Boost transformers are not complicated at all !!

They're auto transformer connected, so they're not a separately derived system, so none of the special grounding issues to worry about. You size they by KVA of the load. This will NOT match the KVA of the BB transformer. They have a HUGE capacity when connected for BB. Once you have the right size BB trans picked out, you just follow the diagrams to connect them for 5% or 10% boost, or 5% or 10% buck. You can hook 2 or 3 (depending) together for 3-phase applications. The 12/24 and 16/32 has nothing to do with the amount of buck or boost. When a buck boost transformer is not auto transformer connected, it's a 120/240V primary by 12/24V secondary and 120/240V primary with 16/32V secondary, respectively.

They're not complicated at all. I've built a few rigs for RVers. I generally put a heavy cabinet handle on top to carry it, put a little 4x4x4 Hoffman box on the side with a flanged inlet in the cover for the equipment to plug into, and a 6' hard usage cord coming out of the BB trans with a Kellems type cord grip. A guy could rig up a toggle switch to change between boost percentages.


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## drlightman (Apr 15, 2007)

Just a thought Chris: Is there by any chance an electric range closer than the 125 feet? The plug is different but it's still a 220 volt circuit, usually 50 or 60 amps. They are often 4 conductor with an equipment grounding wire. Whether you use 12 guage or 10 guage I definitely recommend the heavier SO/SOW/SOWA cordage.

Recyclist

"There's always time to fix it later. Why not just use that time to do it right in the beginning?" (Shut up, Murphy!)


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

if this were used on a long run to say a barn 300' away run on a 20 amp circuit...would it decrease the amperage by a little more than 5% or 10% and would the installation location be at the fore or aft end of the cable run? 

I don't know a lot about 208 and 220-is 208v used in 3 phase where as 220v is single (residential) phase? Now, could a Buck Boost be used on a 208v leg to produce a 228v-and be usable as for a 220v motor? Case in point-a sewage lift station with 208v motor-could a 220v be used w/ a BB device?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

72chevy4x4 said:


> I don't know a lot about 208 and 220-is 208v used in 3 phase where as 220v is single (residential) phase? Now, could a Buck Boost be used on a 208v leg to produce a 228v-and be usable as for a 220v motor? Case in point-a sewage lift station with 208v motor-could a 220v be used w/ a BB device?


Yes. In fact, that is their most common application.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

By no means am I an expert on buck n boost transformers. But all that a buck n boost transformer does is boost (add) a few windings to the existing voltage so that the approriate voltage is used. The buck portion decreases voltage.

For instance, if a motor is rated for 240 volts, and the available source is only 208 volts, then a buck n boost transformer is needed to achieve the required voltage. The manufacturers specifications will detail all the transformer connections (H1, H2, X1, X2 etc.).

Keep in mind that some motors are dual rated for 208/230VAC and as long as the motor voltage rating is within' 10% of the supply voltage you're ok.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

I do so much prefer hearing MD's explanations, it's almost like we speak the same language,:thumbsup: perhaps because we better understand eachother's competency levels.

Wow there's been a lot of posts, I was meaning #20


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## dw electric (Dec 29, 2006)

Sparky Joe said:


> 10/3 is what you want, it will have a black white and green inside it, make sure the green is in the right place when you wire it up, the black and white don't matter so much because they are both being used as hots.
> Home Depot will have the wire but not have the cord caps and you'll find much better deals at the supply house. Tell them you need a male and female cord caps for 30 amp 240 volt(non twist lock). In fact draw a little picture of your receptacle that you plug into to make sure you get the right thing.
> as for the cable itself, it will be pricey you might want to call around. I'm pretty sure what you need is called SO cord, although SJ may work fine too.


I'm only a first year apprentice but doesn't the 3 in 10/3 mean that there is 3 conductors besides the ground not 3 conductors including the ground


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

dw electric said:


> I'm only a first year apprentice but doesn't the 3 in 10/3 mean that there is 3 conductors besides the ground not 3 conductors including the ground


If it is a building wire like romex, then 10-3 means three conductors and a w/g is added if it has a ground.

If it is an appliance cable like SO, or SJO then 10-3 means three wires including the ground. Or just three insulated conductors, use them for what you like. (within the codes of coarse)


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

If you connect 208 VAC to the input of this boost transformer the output will be 240 VAC. The boost transformer is a 120 or 240 input with a 16 or 32 output. The only thing you have to do is size the boost transformer to the load. All it does is adds 32 volts to the 208 volts. As Marc said "very simple".

View attachment 5236


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## fast pasquale (Mar 4, 2007)

What do you guys think of this?? Grant it... this is not my post.. it's from a flooring forum that I am a member...It sounds good to me but I wanted to check with the pro's first.....


"We've discussed getting 220 before when there wasn't an available 220 outlet. As you all know, in most service panels, there will be (2) 110 lines coming in (legs as some call it). In that panel there will be 110 breakers on each side of those legs. There even maybe a 220 breaker for an electric range or oven. Simply locate (2) 20 amp 110 breakers that are not important at the moment (do not need to be used while sanding). Now shut down the main power and disconnect the wires going to those breakers. * NOTE: the breakers must be on SEPARATE legs (lines) of 110 voltage. IE: one breaker on one 110 line and the other breaker on the other 110 line. Simply wire your sander cable directly into those breakers and hookup your ground to the ground buss. If you don't know how to do it, have an electrician do it and show you. It is safe and easy and allows you to shut the breakers off when not sanding, doesn't use wall wiring, and you can put the service panel cover back on while hooked up this way. This is the only way I'll hook up to 220 anymore if there is no 220 plug/outlet."



P.s. So i got some 10-3 ..the one rated for 600volts at 140 feet.. I checked the hots on the dryer receptacle and one read 121.6v the other read 121.2v.. So tomorrow i will run the machine all day and hopefully have good news.. My machine does have fuses ontop of the motor which my electrician told me today, along with popping a breaker, should protect the motor from blowing on my 6k flooring belt sander..


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

They already make a device to do that, Pasquale. 

http://www.quick220.com/220_pictures.htm
and another:
http://refreshyourhome.com/new-steamer-windows/220-V-CONVERTER.html


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

dw electric said:


> I'm only a first year apprentice but doesn't the 3 in 10/3 mean that there is 3 conductors besides the ground not 3 conductors including the ground


with romex and MC the number does not include the ground, but with cable assemblies that aren't meant to be hidden by walls then all the wires are counted.

I don't actually know where the difference is, but you'll the different names in coming years


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

That's good news on buying the 10/3, did you already put on the cord caps?

Do you know exactly what type of cord it is? I imagine it's black(possibly yellow) but will have some capital letters printed on it that say what type it is, probably starting with an 'S'(I can't name a cable that's rated less than 600 volts, I hope that wasn't an upsell)


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## fast pasquale (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah Sparky... I put caps on both ends.. it's black. rated for 600volts sj or sjo..can't remember. 150 bucks with one connector. .90/ft.. is that a good price??
Drlight... no other 220 where anyhwere on the floor.


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## daveselectric (Oct 20, 2006)

if this were used on a long run to say a barn 300' away run on a 20 amp circuit...would it decrease the amperage by a little more than 5% or 10% and would the installation location be at the fore or aft end of the cable run?


First, you have it backwards. Voltage decereases in long runs and amperage increases. Second, I'd like to see a picture of that barn with the hardwood floors.


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## jbwhite (Jan 12, 2007)

daveselectric said:


> if this were used on a long run to say a barn 300' away run on a 20 amp circuit...would it decrease the amperage by a little more than 5% or 10% and would the installation location be at the fore or aft end of the cable run?
> 
> 
> First, you have it backwards. Voltage decereases in long runs and amperage increases. Second, I'd like to see a picture of that barn with the hardwood floors.


Have you ever heard of Ohms Law?

Have you ever learned how to do the calculations?


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