# Lost money today!!!!



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

ash2042 said:


> I know what I have to do, its the actual act of doing it that worries me. I am just too nice, this is extremely hard for me.


Ash, I don't think anyone enjoys doing it, but you need to do what you need to do. Next time screen the guys better before hiring. Like others have said there's lots to choose from right now.

Try not to dwell on it. Think of it like going to the dentist. It'll be over soon, and tomorrow you will feel much better. :thumbup:


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

ash2042 said:


> I know what I have to do, its the actual act of doing it that worries me. I am just too nice, this is extremely hard for me.


Well once he has dug deep enough into your pocket the ACT OF DOING IT" wont be so hard.:hang: the B'stard


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

loneframer said:


> Advice? Next time, remove the words in bold letters above.
> 
> I've had a few guys over the years who, for whatever reason, pull some a**munch move like that.:furious:
> 
> *"Pack your s#!t and get the  off my job!":furious:*




A$$munch........I vote it's the official word of the day on CT:laughing:

Mike


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

ash2042 said:


> I know what I have to do, its the actual act of doing it that worries me. I am just too nice, this is extremely hard for me.


I am a nice guy too (really, I am!)
A few times that I fired someone it almost brought me to tears. After working with someone for a while you become friends and get very close. This is not one of those! I generally will take someone aside right after work and deliver the news privately and professionally. I try to be as dignified as possible and explain that they just aren't what we need. Nobody likes to do it, but it has to be done.


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## Willy is (May 20, 2010)

ash2042 said:


> ..... A little bit of info on the new guy, I just about went balistic on him yesterday, *he tossed the mallet from a standing position about 3 feet onto the hardwood*. Need some advice, Thanks


You may have missed a great opportunity. 

It is one thing is for some reason the production wasn't there.

It might be another thing that he was a trainee and didn't know the ropes or where the tools went or the rest of the drill.

But when a guy is throwing a hammer, throwing it at the materials to be used on the job, or God help him, at the installed wood (I couldn't tell from reading), that seems like a pretty strong statement....
.... and a perfect time to say, *"sorry, this isn't going to work out"*

There are probably other people who will do better for you. The next time it could be a dented piece of flooring in the middle of an install. If he has no respect for you, can you trust him in other peoples houses?

willy


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Warren said:


> You Bully!!
> 
> Was this a male or female?


 ??? I hope you don't think I hit women.:blink:

This guy lived close to me when we were kids. 15 years later, he replies to an ad I had run in the paper. (1996) Figured I'd give him a chance. Turns out, he was a compulsive liar, a mole within the company and seemed to make a great deal of effort to undermine my company.

As you stated earlier, I kept him around too long before I cut him loose and there was a great deal of anger that had built up inside.

I'm not typically a confrontational person, but I had my fill that day. Common sense would not have prevailed had he not walked away.:no:


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Riz:

I was not implying that at all. You never stated that you hit anyone. Just a little fun bud sorry for any misunderstanding. I think I know you well enough to know you would never do that.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

ash2042 said:


> I know what I have to do, its the actual act of doing it that worries me. I am just too nice, this is extremely hard for me.


 I'd have a harder time trying to explain to the wife why payroll exceeds gross income.


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## ash2042 (Jun 8, 2008)

He did toss the hammer on the installed floor. Luckily we had it covered with paper and had unfolded an empty hardwood box and then for some reason we had put another empty box on that one so it didn't hurt the floor. There is so much to this, it was our first day working for a contractor who had told me there was more work for us if we worked out. We came highly recommended, to this contractor. I need someone that cares about the product we produce. Sorry for all this I guess I am just trying to convince myself of what I know needs to be done.


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

ash2042 said:


> I have only been in business for 6 years. Started out small but started to grow and got employees. Today one of my experienced guys and a new guy(he said he had 30 yrs in construction) didn't make enough to pay for one guy. They put down 3 boxes of hardwood in 8 hours, roughly 60 sq ft. I need some assistance, how do you handle this. I understand it can't keep happening but its hard to get the thought out of my head(I just keep running the numbers over and over). The day before we done 14 boxes, I worked with them. A little bit of info on the new guy, I just about went balistic on him yesterday, he tossed the mallet from a standing position about 3 feet onto the hardwood. Need some advice, Thanks


_Start over with new guys. In the mean time, do it yourself.
:thumbsup:
_​


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Warren said:


> Riz:
> 
> I was not implying that at all. You never stated that you hit anyone. Just a little fun bud sorry for any misunderstanding. I think I know you well enough to know you would never do that.


 Sorry Warren, didn't know how to read that. No biggie.:thumbsup:

Anyway, I didn't strike him, but I may have doinked him on the nose a few times with the tip of my finger.:laughing:


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

SAW.co said:


> Well once he has dug deep enough into your pocket the ACT OF DOING IT" wont be so hard.:hang: the B'stard


Second that!!! I used to have real hard time negotiating wages and firing....until the IRS brought me to my knees and forced me to start over......your not in business to make friends or help people out with their problems......it's business....everything you mentioned Ash is unexceptable, I'd be questioning your other guy too, you should be able to count on him to keep things going and be able to give you a clear answer for there sad performance!


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Good Lord, sounds like you need a little one on one plumbing advice here.

Get your balls out of your purse, hike up your skirt and blame yourself.

When you bid a job you bid a pre-determined number of hours right? This means if you come in under the hours you make bonus hours and if you hit the hours on the head you make bank. If you go over you make less than you bid.

In business things are ALWAYS black and white. In relationships things have a gray area. You need to understand as a business owner you need to get your company into the "black and white" area and stay the heck out of the gray.

Your employees live in this gray area and don't pay attention to the hours because you allowed this to happen. It's like telling my kids not to kick the dog in the ribs but they watch me kick it every night. You teach by example.

As a business owner it's 100% your responsibility to convey what you expect out of your employees and you did not do this......and this is the result. We sow what we reap. What your employees did is a result of what you caused.

When you say "I know what I have to do it's just hard because I'm a nice guy" that makes me happy because it's another reminder of how easy it is to take my competition and send them to the stone age.

Now, I'm not saying this can't happen even if your the best owner in the world but lets face it......it's pretty dam rare.

I'm sure you think I'm being "not nice" or being a "mean guy" but take my advice and examine what your doing to cause this. Business is business, is there really another way to look at it? 

Bid a job---> Get job---> Hire good people---> Train people---> Hold accountable---> Make money = Happy contractor (when your happy then be nice)

:thumbsup:

Mike


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## ash2042 (Jun 8, 2008)

I think part of my problem is I am the yougest guy on my crew(I try to work with them when I can. I just like the work). I am 35 and the guy I am probably going to fire tomorrow is 49. I just don't want to come across as some young punk.


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

[QUOTE="Mike's It's like telling my kids not to kick the dog in the ribs but they watch me kick it every night. You teach by example.



That's messed up man


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## ash2042 (Jun 8, 2008)

Mike I don't think you are coming off as the mean guy, I think it is something I needed to hear. Sometimes things just need layed out in black and white. I appreciate it. Thanks


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

srwcontracting said:


> [quote="Mike's It's like telling my kids not to kick the dog in the ribs but they watch me kick it every night. You teach by example.
> 
> 
> 
> That's messed up man


Well, I don't actually kick the dog it's just an example. :laughing:

I'll kick the cat though, cats have ego problems.:w00t:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

ash2042 said:


> I think part of my problem is I am the yougest guy on my crew(I try to work with them when I can. I just like the work). I am 35 and the guy I am probably going to fire tomorrow is 49. I just don't want to come across as some young punk.


 Age doesn't matter here. Young or old, this guy is a tumor. His sickness will spread through the company until the company is dead.

My advice is to cut him loose, tell your other employee that you're not afraid to clean house and spell out exactly how it will be from now on.

I've had to cut quite a few guys loose over the years and more often than not, it wasn't pretty. 

Warren made it clear to me why with his post stating that waiting too long is the cause.


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## Willy is (May 20, 2010)

You are coming across as someone who would rather be liked than have a successful business.

I don't care if someone who would damage my business "likes" me. I'm not sure your new hire is your _friend_.

Why not show some compassion for yourself and your business instead of the hammer thrower?

KEEP IN MIND>>>>>> you are a new hire yourself. Impress the GC and get the job done. Your new hiree sounds like a broken leg. 

Willy


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

Keep it plain and simple.

Call the guy tonite, tell him that since he has been there, production has dropped off dramatically. "Your services are no longer required, you can pick up your check on Friday".

Done. 

If you want to play nice, add..."If we need more help in the future....I'll give you a call."


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

ash2042 said:


> I think part of my problem is I am the yougest guy on my crew(I try to work with them when I can. I just like the work). I am 35 and the guy I am probably going to fire tomorrow is 49. I just don't want to come across as some young punk.


It either works for everyone or it doesn't work.

You bled today. Be thankful it was only one day. There are a lot of us who've invested years with guys before finally waking up to the reality that they weren't ever going to get it. 

If you don't take action and bleed again tomorrow, you'll have no one to blame but yourself. Call his ass up tonight and tell him he need not show up in the morning.

Age has nothing to do with it. You're the leader--so lead. Do what you know you need to do.


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## SAW.co (Jan 2, 2011)

tgeb said:


> Keep it plain and simple.
> 
> Call the guy tonite, tell him that since he has been there, production has dropped off dramatically. "Your services are no longer required, you can pick up your check on Friday".
> 
> ...


I don't know about other states but in Cali if you fire someone you have to pay them that day but if they quit you have until the end of that pay period to cut them a check. I feel its best to fire a man face to face & the act of handing him his last check makes it clear & final.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

ash2042 said:


> Mike I don't think you are coming off as the mean guy, I think it is something I needed to hear. Sometimes things just need layed out in black and white. I appreciate it. Thanks


Look at it this way. If you retire in 30 years and you loose $500 a month because of something that can be totally prevented what does this equate to?

If you put that 500 in a IRA that gave you 10% for retirement you would have $1,094,385.00.

NOW, I ask you again; Would you tell your employees how to behave if it cost you a million frickn dollars? Hell yeah you would.

If you lost $100 today what your really lost was $1700. Again, for every $100 you loose today you are really out 1,700 bucks.

Business is black and white.:thumbsup:

I'm just trying to help.:thumbup:

Mike


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

I bet half the people I fired were older than me. What difference does that make? I am running out of patience with you now.

If I was there now I would fire you!!


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## ash2042 (Jun 8, 2008)

I get the point Warren, just never been in this position. Once again thanks for all your input it is truly appreciated. I am gaining alot of useful info from this, thanks to everyone for all there input. I will let everyone know how it goes.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Warren said:


> I bet half the people I fired were older than me. What difference does that make? I am running out of patience with you now.
> 
> If I was there now I would fire you!!


:laughing:

_"Don't make me angry Mr. McGee, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry" _*Incredible Hulk guy*


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## ash2042 (Jun 8, 2008)

What the he!! Warren I just got to thinking you can't fire me I own the company:thumbup:


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

This one is easy....sleep with his wife. 

He will quit...problem solved!

Good luck! :clap:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

ash2042 said:


> I get the point Warren, just never been in this position. Once again thanks for all your input it is truly appreciated. I am gaining alot of useful info from this, thanks to everyone for all there input. I will let everyone know how it goes.


 Remind me to tell you the story about firing this guy.:whistling


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## designbuildnj (Jan 24, 2011)

*Lost money today*

If I were you I would get rid of him or anyone else that is jerking around. Sometimes you just got to clean house. In my business here in NJ you blink the wrong way and ill hand you your walking papers.

www.designbuildnj.com


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

CookeCarpentry said:


> This one is easy....sleep with his wife.
> 
> He will quit...problem solved!
> 
> Good luck! :clap:


Is that your solution for everything?:laughing:


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

ash2042 said:


> What the he!! Warren I just got to thinking you can't fire me* I own the company*:thumbup:


Start acting like it then!


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Warren said:


> Is that your solution for everything?:laughing:


No, if that doesn't work, drowning the problem in alcohol usually does! :thumbsup::laughing:


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

loneframer said:


> Remind me to tell you the story about firing this guy.:whistling



I wanna hear that one.
Tell me you made him cry!


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

loneframer said:


> Remind me to tell you the story about firing this guy.:whistling


Is that Mike Holmes??? :w00t:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

CookeCarpentry said:


> Is that Mike Holmes??? :w00t:


 on steroids


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

CookeCarpentry said:


> Is that Mike Holmes??? :w00t:


Yep, he was screwing up (or was it down?) and Riz fired him and kept all the #2 bits.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

oldfrt said:


> I wanna hear that one.
> Tell me you made him cry!


 Not exactly. he was with my company for about a year. We got to be good friends and that was the beginning of the end.

Moral of the story is, business is business.


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

ash2042 said:


> I have never had to fire anyone before, its hard. I know my new guy needs the money, but he just doesn't act like a guy wanting a job, I over heard him talking, he felt we needed more breaks. He has been there six days and he didn't even help clean up yesterday. If I needed a job, I think I would look a head a little and have everything there when guys needed it, he just dosen't have it. Sorry, just needing to vent, my wife gets tired of hearing it. Thank you.


I spent a long time with a company handling all safety and hiring and firing of employees. There's a process to it. My suggestion is to bring him in one on one and lay down the law and your expectations of him. Put it all in writing and have him sign it. Do this in a calm mannor and never raise your voice. If he doesn't perform after y'alls meeting let him go. As long as he knew that would be the price if he didn't step it up, you have nothing to feel bad about and he has no legal retaliation grounds and/or unemployement options. You have to have these things in writing to show you made and effort to help him improve and keep his job, and to cover your @ss when you fire him.


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## ash2042 (Jun 8, 2008)

CJA said:


> I spent a long time with a company handling all safety and hiring and firing of employees. There's a process to it. My suggestion is to bring him in one on one and lay down the law and your expectations of him. Put it all in writing and have him sign it. Do this in a calm mannor and never raise your voice. If he doesn't perform after y'alls meeting let him go. As long as he knew that would be the price if he didn't step it up, you have nothing to feel bad about and he has no legal retaliation grounds and/or unemployement options. You have to have these things in writing to show you made and effort to help him improve and keep his job, and to cover your @ss when you fire him.


 
I wish I would have read that before the phone call I just made.:sad:


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

loneframer said:


> Not exactly. he was with my company for about a year. We got to be good friends and that was the beginning of the end.
> 
> Moral of the story is, business is business.


 Agree 100%.
Its a tough move in some cases,especially if the 
problem doesn't arrive for a few months.

Ash,
What was your experienced help's excuse.
If this new guy was able to bring production to a crawl
with a seasoned helper,the trouble has just started.


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

Sorry there boss. Just found this site. You wouldn't beleive how much money I saved that company not only in W/C insurance but also unemployment suits. You have to have your ducks in a row before you can pull the trigger. It's only smart business to CYA.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

ash2042 said:


> I wish I would have read that before the phone call I just made.:sad:


Don't worry, he is already corrupted. Just start over with a fresh victim.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

ash2042 said:


> I wish I would have read that before the phone call I just made.:sad:


What'd he work for you? 2 days?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Once again, this is why the screening process is so important. In Ohio, we cannot do a background check to find how many WC claims a potential hire has. The remedy,supposedly, is to hire people on a 90 day temporary basis. After hiring them we can then do a check to find out about WC claims. This can then be weighed in properly with other data to determine if continued employment is viable. 

Wow, I use a lot of legal terms there. I should have my lawyer re read that and send me a bill!


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

ash2042 said:


> I have never had to fire anyone before, its hard. I know my new guy needs the money,


You know what's going to be harder than firing somebody? Trying to explain to your customer after this guy really f's something up bad.

As far as him needing the money....Are you independently wealthy and you just started this business to help out down on their luck losers?
This guys going to bleed your company dry if you let him.


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

TimNJ said:


> You know what's going to be harder than firing somebody? *Trying to explain to your customer after this guy really f's something up bad.
> *
> As far as him needing the money....Are you independently wealthy and you just started this business to help out down on their luck losers?
> This guys going to bleed your company dry if you let him.


Excellent point!:thumbsup:


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## CJA (Jan 26, 2011)

TimNJ said:


> You know what's going to be harder than firing somebody? Trying to explain to your customer after this guy really f's something up bad.
> 
> As far as him needing the money....Are you independently wealthy and you just started this business to help out down on their luck losers?
> This guys going to bleed your company dry if you let him.


This is true. I learned the hard way from my own brother. All I wanted was to help him be successful and it almost cost me my business. Your job is to look out for A#1. That's your wife and kids.


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

loneframer said:


> Advice? Next time, remove the words in bold letters above.
> 
> I've had a few guys over the years who, for whatever reason, pull some a**munch move like that.:furious:
> 
> *"Pack your s#!t and get the  off my job!":furious:*


Haven't read the other 3 pages, but didn't need to read any further than this.:w00t::thumbup:


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## All-Craft (Sep 23, 2010)

ash2042 said:


> I know what I have to do, its the actual act of doing it that worries me. I am just too nice, this is extremely hard for me.


I'm the same way " too nice " according to my wife, but I've fired family, friends (could explain why I have very few friends now!!..) and strangers. You have to be diplomatic about it, but I let everyone know in the beginning that "We might be friends but when it comes to work ,that's how I feed my family and I take that seriously".

Let him keep his dignity but he's a cancer to your crew, it"ll only get worse!!, tell him to think about it as one really long break :laughing::laughing:...jk


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Wow, this guy is getting the official CT shellacking.:laughing:

Now I'm starting to feel bad about my original post. I guess I'm just too nice.:laughing:


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## ash2042 (Jun 8, 2008)

Update!!!! I informed the individual that he is no longer needed. He asked why and I gave him multiple reasons, and he didn't see where throwing the hammer was a big deal. I explained that is the problem, more than actually throwing the hammer. Thanks for all the help and advice.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

You could have told him that since he threw the hammer, you dropped the axe!


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

ash2042 said:


> Update!!!! I informed the individual that he is no longer needed. He asked why and I gave him multiple reasons, and he didn't see where throwing the hammer was a big deal. I explained that is the problem, more than actually throwing the hammer. Thanks for all the help and advice.


I think you should call him back and re-hire him, you were WAY too hard on this guy. :laughing:


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> I think you should call him back and re-hire him, you were WAY too hard on this guy. :laughing:


Then fire him again after all the fun ways you have learned on this post!


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Warren said:


> Then fire him again after all the fun ways you have learned on this post!



Ha! Yeah!

Call him back up and say "Hey, lets start fresh in the morning and forget about the past" Then when he shows up in the morning and gets out of the truck take the hammer and just fckn lob the SOB & him and say "Now your fired btch!":laughing:

Mike


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## ash2042 (Jun 8, 2008)

Mike, back on post 33 you had me get my balls out of my purse, now I know why, so you can bust them.:laughing:


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

ash2042 said:


> Mike, back on post 33 you had me get my balls out of my purse, now I know why, so you can bust them.:laughing:


Just a little, It's all good, it's been a long day for me, I had to fire my wife and kids.:laughing:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Ha! Yeah!
> 
> Call him back up and say "Hey, lets start fresh in the morning and forget about the past" Then when he shows up in the morning and gets out of the truck take the hammer and just fckn lob the SOB & him and say "Now your fired btch!":laughing:
> 
> Mike


 Better yet, make the call from an unknown number, then when he shows up tomorrow...."WTF are you doing here?"


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Well guys, it's been a great thread and all but I have to sign out and pummel my dig and kick the cat.

Let the shellacking continue......carry on boys.


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## ash2042 (Jun 8, 2008)

I think I may have to fire my wife, she told me I have to get out of production mode when I walk through the door.


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## abacab (Sep 16, 2009)

I have a hard time firing people too, although once it only took me 4 hours, and I was mad at myself for letting him stay on that long. The thing is, he worked really hard, but got nothing done. He was doing lots of extra unneccessary steps and by 1/2 day all he had was some trim cut, all too long. One time I did fire a friend, and then re-hired him. He was the best employee I ever had, after that.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

ash2042 said:


> I think I may have to fire my wife, she told me I have to get out of production mode when I walk through the door.


Apparently that happened going through the door the other way this morning. Glad to hear that you did what needed done. I know how hard that can be. A few times I am sure I felt as bad or worse than the guy I fired. But I am sure each time I did what needed to be done. It doesn't get any easier after you have been in business longer. If you are truly learning though it should happen less often.


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## dsconstructs (Jul 20, 2010)

Yeah, I just found out the hard way last employee I fired over a year ago. I'm a small company, have never had more than 3 employees at once....usually just one as I'm completely hands on the job myself. Anyway, it needs to all be documented with employer/employee signatures to prove to EDD that firing was justified, or they could easily get UI benefits regardless of the reason. My UI rates took a hit because of it. Warning, Warning, Termination......anything from job performance to attendance issues. 
What's done is done and at least he wasn't with you long enough to really affect your UI reserves. Even for a small company it's mandatory. I fired a handful in 11 years time but that was the first time that they went for UI benefits and won because I didn't know just how important the documentation was. BTW, I never enjoyed firing any of the guys I had to, ranging from two days with me to nearly 2 years. But it's business and it beats biting my own tongue and losing money.


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## nhill2090 (Dec 11, 2010)

If thats all the wood they got done I would fire both of them. Wood is a simple process that goes quickly if you know what you are doing.

Myself and one other guy put down over 1400 sq ft of wood in the last day and a half! 

I would find another employee to hire with experience in hardwood flooring.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

nhill2090 said:


> If thats all the wood they got done I would fire both of them. Wood is a simple process that goes quickly if you know what you are doing.
> 
> Myself and one other guy put down over 1400 sq ft of wood in the last day and a half!
> 
> I would find another employee to hire with experience in hardwood flooring.


So you should go finish up that floor for Ash :whistling


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## KEPC (Jan 13, 2010)

In 6 years, I have only let go of two people. 

My intention was to fire them on the spot but waited until I was cool, I waited for the project to end. I made sure that the two guys in question were by me at all times, while the other workers were doing other things. 

After the project was over, I just gave the guys an excuse that work was slow. 

No matter how worthless I think a guy is, I was always taught never to burn any bridges. This policy has served me well. Sometimes I have been in a bind where I just need some grunt work.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

loneframer said:


> Remind me to tell you the story about firing this guy.:whistling


Was that picture taken after you fired him? Looks like he is ready to pounce upon your arse from that perch.

He not so bad, you could take him. Warren and Kent will hold him for you if you start having trouble. I would but it would take a while for me to get there.:whistling

Firing your first guy is the hardest. Just try to leave the guy with his dignity and keeping your integrity. No need to blow up, just get it done.


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## Deckem (Jan 27, 2011)

Over the years (26 to be exact) I have laid off or fired over 70 workers. It doesn't get any easier with time. What did make it easier is when I realized that I was responsible for the livelyhood of my other workers, the performance to the customer, my wife's happiness, and my children future. One thing that did help is, whenever I hire a new worker it is for a trial period. If they prove themself and the job supervisors agree, they have a job. If they don't, then they get their check with the old " this just isn't working out". You don't owe them any other explaination. If you are too friendly towards you workers, they will view this as, you are someone they can get away this kind of behavior with. It is a lack of respect for you and others when somebody pulls this stuff. This is probably why they weren't working when you met them. I still don't like firing people, but I don't like people mistaking my kindness for weakness even more.


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## kcremodeling (Nov 8, 2009)

If somebody is giving their all, it's tough to have to tell them that it's just not enough. Right now, you have to be skilled, motivated, and intelligent to be among the small % of carpenters who are still doing what they love. If somebody is not pulling their weight, it's just not fair to me or the other guys who are.


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## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*You need to correct your very serious problem and....*

that is yourself.

It sounds like you have a serious problem with managing workers and if you cannot correct this problem you should work alone. I know many contractors who are afraid to tell employees what to do. The employees can read their bosses like a book and walk all over them. 

Write your policies as follows and when you wake up in the morning look your employees square in the eye and say:

A) I am paying you to provide a service.

B) The services I expect are: 1) you install flooring, 2) I want only the best work money can buy, 3) I expect you to keep the work areas clean and perform a final cleanup at the end of the day........and all your policies (write them on paper).

C) I will pay you $20 per hour to lay 600 square feet of floor in an 8-hour day.

D) To make sure you are not talking to a brick wall, ask your employees if they agree to the terms and policies. Make sure you get a positive answer from your employee. If you get a negative answer then tell the employees you prefer that he takes the day off and tell him you will call him if you decide you need his service (chickens way out).

When your employee does not give you the service or quality of work you expect don't be a wimp and don't give up one penny of your personal money. Otherwise, send me your wallet and let me steal a few hundred dollars for doing nothing. I learned one good trait when I was in grade school and that is; nobody steals as little as a penny from me without a fist fight. 

Since I was in 3rd grade I had three major fights over 10, 15, and 25 cents. The fights were not about the amount of the money. The fights were about the way the money was taken from me and the disrepect. When an employee takes money for doing nothing he has no respect for you and he is taking 'your' money.

"There is no difference between an employee who gets paid for doing nothing and stealing money directly from your wallet." 

When your employee does not do what he is supposed to do you say, "Bob, I told you I need 600 sq ft of floor laid and you laid only 200. I'm sorry, but here is your check for the hours (or whatever) you worked." 
Period. You don't need to explain that he is fired and the strange part is employees seldom care when they are fired and there are many reasons. In fact, you said it appears he does not care whether or not he has a job.

If you want to be successful you need to have the attitude that nothing will stand in your way of progression and profit. 

An employee is like a pair of Channel Lock pliers. When they work great you keep them. When the pliers slip and crush your fingers you don't need to give one second of thought about keeping the pliers. You immediately throw them in the trash. 

Firing is simple. First, you have to know that you are 100% right. When you are 100% right about something then you are the fool if you keep the employee and he is smarter than you because you pay him for doing nothing.

When you know you are 100% right you can say:

Bob. Things are not working out. I'm sorry, but here is your check.

Suppose Bob wants to know why he is being fired. To reduce your fear of firing an employee, you say, "Bob, to prevent arguing, I prefer not to discuss the reason."

Bob gets mad and tells you that he is entitled to a reason. You say, Bob, to prevent arguing, I prefer not to discuss the reason."

Other ways for chickens to get rid of employees is to give them days off. Then, call the employee and tell them you don't have any work, or you can't use them because you won't have enough money to pay them.

Toughen up, or perhaps you should be a door mat and let people walk all over you. When you are right do the right thing and this is what a boss is supposed to do.


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## Osito (Mar 4, 2008)

ash2042 said:


> That is a good idea but I am sure they won't like it, for obvious reasons. Is your son a student here?


He lives there. I came south he stayed. He was the best worker I had.


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## jimmys (May 1, 2009)

We had to fire a guy once who started getting hurt more and more, to where he couldn't climb a ladder without going down. We paid him Tuesday til the end of the week so he'd just go before damaging himself into a claim. Wasn't that hard. When you get scared for your income or family or reputation you will act.
Jim


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

Time to go.


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

loneframer said:


> While framing one day, one of my new hires,(knew him from many years ago) started arguing with me and proceded to throw a lumber crayon at me.
> 
> I was in the middle of notching a 6x6 post at the time. I jumped over the horses, pommel horsed over his cut table and started screaming in his face. As I continued toward him, with my right index finger in his face, he says "You take one more step toward me with that handsaw in your hand and I'll call the cops."
> 
> ...


About three years ago I was calling on a builder in a newly started sub division. We were supplying all roll offs and it was my usual courtesy call.

I approach him on one of the sites and we start chatting. All of a sudden we hear this eruption from the framing crew. Their is the foreman in the face of this worker finger in the face the whole deal telling him, and the rest of the county, that he is fired.

The employee says very calmly - "You the big boss man here. I will gather my personal items from the basement and be gone".

The foreman yells back with spit flying that he is to leave now and he will bring his effects to his car.

The employee, who was not very big, gets a little tense and says that the foreman better let him get his items or they will "go that round the foreman wants".

The other framers on the job and the builder step in and move the foreman away. During this, the other framers are actually laughing. The foreman gripes about them thinking it was funny and they had no business getting involved. One of them says "No, I think we just literally may have saved your life".

The employee leaves calmly after gathering his things.

Fast forward about 3 months from the incident and there is the employee on the local news. Being interviewed about how he is 3-0 as a professional MMA fighter and is on the verge of hopefully landing a UFC contract with one or two more wins.


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## Resta (Feb 11, 2009)

pcplumber,

I'm just glad that I have not worked for bosses such as you Sir...and wish - never will....


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

DON'T FIRE HIM. MAKE him do all the grunt work--no more carpentry and ride his ass the whole time until he quits--then you won't have to pay unemployment.:thumbsup:


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

ash2042 said:


> I have only been in business for 6 years. Started out small but started to grow and got employees. Today one of my experienced guys and a new guy(he *said* he had 30 yrs in construction)


Hard to believe he had 30 years if he's this crappy. Did you ask any questions about his experience, whom he worked for, then verify his answers _BEFORE_ he was hired? If you're careful about what you suck in, you won't have to worry as much about blowing things out.

If you think he lied and could verify that the basis you used for hiring him was a lie, that's a valid reason for immediate termination.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

DPCII said:


> About three years ago I was calling on a builder in a newly started sub division. We were supplying all roll offs and it was my usual courtesy call.
> 
> I approach him on one of the sites and we start chatting. All of a sudden we hear this eruption from the framing crew. Their is the foreman in the face of this worker finger in the face the whole deal telling him, and the rest of the county, that he is fired.
> 
> ...


 That's a good point and a valid reason why physical confrontation is a bad idea.

Many guys believe they are the alpha male and think they dominate the workplace. I've seen more than one of those guys get their azz handed to them when the dust clears.

I had a co-worker about 20 years ago, who was originally from Aruba. he married an American girl and moved to this country.

Anyway, he was about 5'6, maybe 170 pounds max. Very funny guy and good natured. Anyway, he got a job working nights at a local night club in a beach community during the summer as a bouncer.

One night, a guy was giving another patron a hard time, so Aruba asked him to chill and enjoy the music. The guy gives him an F you and takes a swing at him. Aruba procedes to splatter the guys nose all over his face with some type of spinning back kick and puts him in the hospital.

Turns out, Arubas uncle was a professional kick boxer and had trained Aruba for several years.

Bottom line is, if you're going to get confrontational, you'd better know your opponent.:shifty:


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## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

Electric_Light said:


> Hard to believe he had 30 years if he's this crappy. Did you ask any questions about his experience, whom he worked for, then verify his answers _BEFORE_ he was hired? If you're careful about what you suck in, you won't have to worry as much about blowing things out.
> 
> If you think he lied and could verify that the basis you used for hiring him was a lie, that's a valid reason for immediate termination.


It's funny, we had a guy on the crew once that blew up at our boss at the time (the guy was huge and & was trained at jujitsu--my boss at the time 150 lbs soaking wet wearing boots)--we broke it up before anything happened. Anyways, the dummy tried getting a job with another company--& mind you this guy is literally the dumbest person I've ever met & worked with--he was a laborer with DIY skills at best. Turns out our boss was friends with the owner of the other company and this kid used him as a reference (shows you his intelligence level). He told him that he had 10 years of framing experience & was getting paid $35/hr (he was probably making $20 or less). So the interviewer asked him what the rough opening was on 2-6/6-8 door was. He replied, "I don't know, the other guys always lay it out & I just nail it together":laughing::laughing: I'm glad the interviewer was friends with my boss so that we could hear the story--still laugh to this day about it.


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