# help!



## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

First off, im no mason. Have little to no experence. Im a carpenter.

I have a little side job where im frameing out a porch to become a mud room. It has a cinder blockwall. I have to replace 2 rowes (10 block) 

SO i told myself hoe hard can it be?! Big mistake

I could not get the mortor to stick to anything, let alone know if i used the right type. I was useing the quickcrete type s. 

Any advice? Tips, tricks or suggestions? 

P.s. you masons make it look to easy!


----------



## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

make sure the mortar is the consistency of pudding/yogurt.

lay your bed of mud first, then the head joints. Scratch a thin layer of mortar on the block first, then put a thicker bead on with the trowel. It should stick better.

PS, They're courses, not rows


----------



## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

6stringmason said:


> PS, They're courses, not rows


I knew that! :shifty: what type of mortor though? Its above ground and bearing some load. Very minimal though.


----------



## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

That type S will be fine. Type N will also work.


----------



## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

6stringmason said:


> That type S will be fine. Type N will also work.


Im sure its a stupid question but what is the diffrence? All i know is type s is used for structual


----------



## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

Type S has a little more cement in the bag and it is designed for below grade. Type N is used in about ninety percent of the projects involving masonry.

If you stand the block on end to butter the ears, you can tap the block on the ground to settle the mud so it sticks to the block when you tip it down and then it won't fall off. You wouldn't want to do this with every block the rest of your life, but for this project it will get you through.

I once watched a guy lay up a garage foundation and he buttered the block with his hands pressing the mud on to make it stick. Since I had bid the job and didn't get it, I didn't bother to show him the proper way, but the foundation got done and is still standing today.


----------



## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

the quickrete type S premix is very sandy....sometimes I add just a dash of portland to each bag which helps it feel like real mortar....i.e a little stickier. The biggest thing you can do though is to set your trowel. By that I mean pick up the mortar on the trowel and jiggle it a little bit....this will help the mortar to stick. This smooth mason move will help you get the job done.


----------



## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

Thanks guys. Im going to start fresh tomorrow and see what happens. Ill try out the type n and see where it takes me. 

I have a new respect for masons now


----------



## JesseCocozza (Aug 20, 2011)

Carpenter eyes said:


> Thanks guys. Im going to start fresh tomorrow and see what happens. Ill try out the type n and see where it takes me.
> 
> I have a new respect for masons now


I felt your pain a few years ago when I shrunk a few window openings in my house. The guys you see doing this everyday are pretty much magicians. The phrase " it's all in the wrist" comes to mind. To be able to use a mason's trowel properly and apply the mortar to the block is nothing less than an art form.


----------



## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

JesseCocozza said:


> I felt your pain a few years ago when I shrunk a few window openings in my house. The guys you see doing this everyday are pretty much magicians. The phrase " it's all in the wrist" comes to mind. To be able to use a mason's trowel properly and apply the mortar to the block is nothing less than an art form.


I just watched a few youtube videos to see it in action. Wow is all i can say. 

After my 10 block experence, i will have noooooo problem paying someone to do it.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

haha yea blocks are fun...heres is tip for you...stand the block vertically and as above said mix the mud on gummy side..take some mortar with brick trowel(philly style preferable,please dont use margin trowel,I highly urge you!!) and "cut it" into ears at approximately 30 degree angle...

If your wrist is not letting you do that heres easier way...lay one block,slightly dampen the surface then apply the mortar to surface of laid block and so on.


----------



## stacker (Jan 31, 2006)

6stringmason said:


> PS, They're courses, not rows


brick are in courses,block are in rows:whistling


----------



## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

Stacker, I told you not to embarrass me today. Get back in the truck. :laughing:

I guess I never heard them called that round here. We use the term courses for everything, except stone of course lol


----------



## Aframe (Mar 24, 2008)

This thread shows what this forum is great for. Most guys find themselves having to cross the boundries of their "trade" once and a while to get the job done. 
And to have a little bit of backup for info is a nice thing.


----------



## letmefixit (May 2, 2011)

I wish I were on this site when I bricked my basement bar 10 years ago. I gained a great respect for the masonry guys. I did finally get it finished and was happy with the outcome but I am glad I paid myself by the hour :thumbup:


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

We havnt even got to the part of leveling the block or checking the heights or pointing it!

To bad there isnt a caulking gun that could dispense mortar.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

JBM said:


> To bad there isnt a caulking gun that could dispense mortar.


There is.


----------



## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

stacker said:


> brick are in courses,block are in rows:whistling


i thought only corn was in rows


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Why wouldn't bolck or stone be in courses. Stone most definitely is in courses, has been since English was invented.

Eg. Rubble wall randomly coursed. Or Randomly coursed rubble, or squared coursed rubble, or.....


----------



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

*block*

Carpentereyes; punch into your computer www.masonryworktools.com scroll to video and watch it will be much help. Good luck!


----------



## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

I guess I've never laid stone in courses. We either lay a field stone, round stone, or ledgestone, and even on the latter we break up the bed joints every few feet.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

6stringmason said:


> I guess I've never laid stone in courses. We either lay a field stone, round stone, or ledgestone, and even on the latter we break up the bed joints every few feet.


Right but You couls also say you build random rubble walls using 2 different stones and a roughly squared randomly coursed rubble wall


----------



## Carpenter eyes (Jan 10, 2012)

Report. Just laid the last block. Took me an hour and a half. The type n is so much easier to work with


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

Carpenter eyes said:


> Report. Just laid the last block. Took me an hour and a half. The type n is so much easier to work with


Quickrete Type S is not the greatest product...for small jobs like that consider Spec-Mix products...way better mud.


----------



## MAULEMALL (May 16, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> There is.


I made a lot of money quick with that very gun :thumbsup:


----------



## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

MAULEMALL said:


> I made a lot of money quick with that very gun :thumbsup:


I have always wondered if those things were any good, nice to hear a positve review.:thumbsup:


----------



## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

JBM said:


> We havnt even got to the part of leveling the block or checking the heights or pointing it!
> 
> To bad there isnt a caulking gun that could dispense mortar.


Its called a quickpoint I have one but I still use my grout bag 90% of the time


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

2low4nh said:


> Its called a quickpoint I have one but I still use my grout bag 90% of the time


Yeah i know :whistling


----------



## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

I got owned by page 2 but yes the quick point is nice for pointing a lot of brick work or cultured stone work. small stuff I stay with a grout bag and flat work gets the bag. I always had a problem with the auger drive getting plugged. the mud would settle in the auger and get hard causing a jam unless you were moving a lot of material.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

dakzaag said:


> I have always wondered if those things were any good, nice to hear a positve review.:thumbsup:


I used one for repointing this factory wall and for the lick & stick on that chimney. Worth more than it costs, and that ain't all that cheap.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

If you watch some youtube videos, you can see guys using the quick point (drill unit), the refillable caulking gun and doing hand work. The guys doing hand work are faster and cleaner. Not to mention that you can see both the automated methods don't get into the deep areas. 

I can see using the automated ones if re-pointing isn't something you do often but if you have the proper technique, hand work is the best.


----------



## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

hand pointing works well but hands down my grout bag is the fastest method for me. I do not use the metal tips in them though. hand pointing is much cleaner if you know what your doing. give a trowel and a jointer to a laborer and see how messy it gets. the quickpoint does not do deep joints at all. its good under 1" I would never dream of using it on stone work.


----------



## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

dom-mas said:


> If you watch some youtube videos, you can see guys using the quick point (drill unit), the refillable caulking gun and doing hand work. The guys doing hand work are faster and cleaner. Not to mention that you can see both the automated methods don't get into the deep areas.
> 
> I can see using the automated ones if re-pointing isn't something you do often but if you have the proper technique, hand work is the best.


I can fill as deep as needed with the quickpoint. As well my green helper with no skills was a pro with it in 30 mins. It does leave residue on the edges, but most re-points are washed anyways.


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

2low4nh said:


> I always had a problem with the auger drive getting plugged. the mud would settle in the auger and get hard causing a jam unless you were moving a lot of material.


If you're not moving a lot of material, the QuickPoint isn't the tool for the job. It does take some practice to get the optimum mix, but once you have that dialed in, jams should be rare.

I agree that a bag is better, but my hand can only do so many squeezes a day.


----------



## 2low4nh (Dec 12, 2010)

yeah bags really wear on the hands and forearm. I think with the quick point you really need to run premix through it. When I mean filling deep with the quick point when I go to tuck deep joints there is always a void somewhere in the wall. I like the bag for deep stuff because you can get the bag in as far as needed.


----------



## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Oh I def agree that in the hands of a labourer the drill or caulking gun is better. But it's tough for them to get good and quick at manual pointing if they don't do it. Plus a labourer can make a pretty good mess with the wet mud needed for either automated systems. Oh and I don't think I've ever washed a wall I've re-pointed. Another time saver.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

forget grout bags and quick points...if area is under 1k sq ft,I always thought best and cleanest(dont think the fastest though) is the ball of mud in the hand and the slicker...off you go...technique is fairly easy...its similar to what you would do with trowel cutting into mud on the hawk if you were stuccoing.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

I am fixing someones work right now actually,I will post some pictures.


----------



## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

I rarely ever lay cultured stone (my guys do) but I typically grout & tool all the joints behind them, and I'll take a grout bag over the "Quikpoint" any day. If you use the right bags (thin disposable for us), the right mortar and have the correct technique, it's alot faster IMO.


----------



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

x2 on that


----------

