# how to install porcelain on outdoor wood deck?



## thebasman (Aug 5, 2008)

Hi all,

I am doing ~800 sq.ft of outdoor deck with porcelain. Deck is made on 10ft 6x6 with 2x10 joists @ 12ft and has presently 5/8 waterbond T&G ply with a exterior roofing vinyl glued to it. It gets more complicated. It has a glass/aluminum railing surrounding it. Should I remove the vinyl (HO hates it cause its starting to wrinkle)floor or simply add more ply (3/4") or even add cement boards then the tile? It is an uncovered deck that goes through quite a lot of freezing temps (and oodles of snow) up here in Ottawa (HI STEVE!!). oh, and do I put Ditra on it or not? 

What about the substrate? Do I use the superflex stuff? Grout? what do you guys think? Thanks in advance.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Turn and run away! This is a huge bag of worms and you don't have a grasp of what it takes to do soemthing like this. You would be better off letting someone else do this one. You never lose money on a job you don't do.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

thebasman said:


> *how to install porcelain on outdoor wood deck?*


You don't. But if you decide to anyway, I'd do it the same way one would attach a Slip 'n Slid©* to a set of stairs.













*© 2008 WHAM-O, Inc. All rights reserved. ® and TM designates U.S. trademark of WHAM-O Inc


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## thebasman (Aug 5, 2008)

I have to do this job...I promised and their family friends and I have no choice unfortunately. Mickeyco you lost me with the slip and slide buddy...


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> I promised and their family friends


They won't be friends for long if you tile that deck.


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## JBBS (Jan 17, 2008)

Post pics when your done!


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Yea if you want to keep them as friends explain to them how bad of an idea this is for yout to attempt.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

That deck is nowhere stiff enough to lay tile on.

Oh, and you didn't say, but I get the feeling the HO has picked out a nice 12x12 or 18x18 tile for this job as well.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

I liked the comment about running away from this one!!

However, if you must do this, I would recommend going to the Schluter website (www.schluter.com) and looking at their underlay and edge systems. I am going to be doing my own front patio/step with porcelain tile this fall - am going to use the Schluter system, a 12x12 porcelain tile (not glazed) and laticrete epoxy grout. I am however pouring a slab - then tiling.


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## thebasman (Aug 5, 2008)

Jarvis thanks!
I am not able to pour a slab (would luv to) as the deck is over 10ft off the ground and doubt the 6x6 will support it. The existing deck has 5/8 T&G waterbond with an outdoor vinyl layer on top. Should I just install another layer of ply on top of vinyl or remove it and start fresh? I am putting ditra and Kerdi and the Schlutter edging for sure....


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## thebasman (Aug 5, 2008)

Double-A, how'd you guess about the HO picking our 12X12...its sitting in his garage lol. Nice porcelain. I did another home on the same street 10 feet of the ground with porcelain...2x8 joist @12 ft....still no grout issues after 2 years. Used the regular stuff...not epoxy either. But didnt have this vinyl layer to worry about!


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

What does the tile weigh?


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

Man, you said a lot in so little words!!! That is the truth!:sad:




Bud Cline said:


> They won't be friends for long if you tile that deck.


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## Snow Man (Aug 18, 2008)

*Freeze / Thaw cycles make contractors look bad in any trade.*

*You cannot fool Mothernature!:sad:*


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## ClassicCarpets (Aug 28, 2008)

*You Can Do it ...*



thebasman said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am doing ~800 sq.ft of outdoor deck with porcelain. Deck is made on 10ft 6x6 with 2x10 joists @ 12ft and has presently 5/8 waterbond T&G ply with a exterior roofing vinyl glued to it. It gets more complicated. It has a glass/aluminum railing surrounding it. Should I remove the vinyl (HO hates it cause its starting to wrinkle)floor or simply add more ply (3/4") or even add cement boards then the tile? It is an uncovered deck that goes through quite a lot of freezing temps (and oodles of snow) up here in Ottawa (HI STEVE!!). oh, and do I put Ditra on it or not?
> 
> What about the substrate? Do I use the superflex stuff? Grout? what do you guys think? Thanks in advance.


Hi thebanman


You can do this ...

First of all, dont use ceramic (in case you don't know). Ceramic will bust in freezing temperature for the fact that it is a porous tile that will hold water, therefore when it freezes outside, it can bust the tile. Porcelian can be interior or exterior as it is a tile that is fired hotter and usually only holds <.05% water.

You can use the ditra system as your substrate. Or, on the less expensive side, as long as your substrate is 1 '' thick, you can use a 1/4'' hardibacker or 1/4'' durock.

You will want to remove the vinyl from the deck so that mildew and mold doesnt build up between the 1/4'' substrate and the vinyl.

For your grout, I would recommend that you use an epoxy grout and use Ultraflex 3 for your thinset.


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## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

Classic Carpet, BTW, do you have a name?

You're wrong about using Hardie. NO hardie outdoors.

Jaz


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> First of all, dont use ceramic (in case you don't know). Ceramic will bust in freezing temperature for the fact that it is a porous tile that will hold water, therefore when it freezes outside, it can bust the tile. Porcelian can be interior or exterior as it is a tile that is fired hotter and usually only holds <.05% water.



P-s-s-s-s-t. Cumere!
Get closer I have to whisper something to you!

PORCELAIN IS CERAMIC TILE!!!:sad:


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## ClassicCarpets (Aug 28, 2008)

Bud Cline said:


> P-s-s-s-s-t. Cumere!
> Get closer I have to whisper something to you!
> 
> PORCELAIN IS CERAMIC TILE!!!:sad:


 
No way .. your joking, right??


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## ClassicCarpets (Aug 28, 2008)

JazMan said:


> Classic Carpet, BTW, do you have a name?
> 
> You're wrong about using Hardie. NO hardie outdoors.
> 
> Jaz


 
I didnt say fiberrock

Hardi is cement based .. is the issue on swelling? Wont do it with a membrane

Durock yes.


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## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

Classic,

How did Fiberock get into this thread? I know the difference between Fiberock and Hardie. Hardie is 90% cement btw. In any case, Hardie CANNOT be used outdoors. Maybe you should check it out? Your customers deserve it. It's easy today with the internet and such.......:clap:

Jaz


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## ClassicCarpets (Aug 28, 2008)

JazMan said:


> Classic,
> 
> How did Fiberock get into this thread? I know the difference between Fiberock and Hardie. Hardie is 90% cement btw. In any case, Hardie CANNOT be used outdoors. Maybe you should check it out? Your customers deserve it. It's easy today with the internet and such.......:clap:
> 
> Jaz


 
We never have used Hardie outside, we've only used ditra. I only mentioned that as a alternative because it's cement based ... and should have a membrane if it is used.

His application BTW isn't recommended outdoors anyhow with the temps.


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## Snow Man (Aug 18, 2008)

Snow Man said:


> *Freeze / Thaw cycles make contractors look bad in any trade.*
> 
> *You cannot fool Mothernature!:sad:*


 .................**************************.........................


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## ClassicCarpets (Aug 28, 2008)

Snow Man said:


> .................**************************.........................


I read that earlier ... read TCNA


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Classic Carpets, from the very first word this thread has been about an outdoor project.

Let's try to keep things straight here so as not to mislead your fellow craftsmen.

First you said:



> Classic Carpets: *First of all, don't use ceramic (in case you don't know). Ceramic will bust in freezing temperature* for the fact that it is a porous tile that will hold water, therefore when it freezes outside, it can bust the tile. Porcelain can be interior or exterior as it is a tile that is fired hotter and usually only holds <.05% water.


Then when I mentioned that "porcelain was ceramic" you said:


> Classic Carpets: No way .. your joking, right??


As if you wanted everyone to think you already knew that when in fact you obviously didin't and you wanted to save yourself by making me look foolish. (Refer to your above quote.

Then you said:



> Classic Carpets: You can use the ditra system as your substrate. Or, on the less expensive side, as long as your substrate is 1 '' thick, *you can use a 1/4'' hardibacker* or 1/4'' durock.


THEN when Jaz corrected you on that recommendation because Hardi CAN NOT be used out of doors you began to back-peddle on that topic also attempting to bring another product into question that was never part of the conversation.

Please don't mis-lead others by speaking and not knowing what you are talking about. This only serves your needs.


Then you go on to say in another post:



> His application BTW isn't recommended outdoors anyhow with the temps.


That also is NON-SENSE my friend, where are you getting these ideas?

Professionals should be more accurate in their statements in my opinion.
The end-user (customer) deserves better than that.


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## ClassicCarpets (Aug 28, 2008)

Bud Cline said:


> Classic Carpets, from the very first word this thread has been about an outdoor project.
> 
> Let's try to keep things straight here so as not to mislead your fellow craftsmen.
> 
> ...


Im quite aware that Hardi cant be used outdoors ... Im quite aware that Porcelain is ceramic. I mentioned the difference between the both because porc is fired hotter. I never said anything about installing fiber outside, I said Hardi may be used with a membrane over it. If it gets wet, freezes, it may bust, crack, whatever.

If you read TCNA it Will tell you that applications where there are extreme cold temperatures, that any of the applications are not recommended.

If there is a method, great, I never installed anything UP NORTH. Down south we can install it all day long without a problem. And we use ditra, mortor, membranes, weep holes, slopes, etc. Every thing weve got down here is concrete and if we do go over a deck (rarely), we'll use ditra.

Do you guys just sit around just to wait and flame someone?


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

No "flaming" intended but the dispensing of inaccurate information can become cancerous if not kept in check. It is all for the sake of accuracy and sucessful jobs for the end-user.

We all have egos we like to feed that's just human. Admitting when you have made a mistake is also human. Some just can't do it unfortunately.:no:


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## rsss396375 (Aug 11, 2008)

*Explain*

I would really like to hear some honest procedures on how many of you would approach a problem like setting tile on an existing wood deck. Some of you come from very cold climates and I think that would likely be the best or worst environment to set tile outide while finding sucess.
I'm all ears when learning how to set a difficult job like this.:thumbup:


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

I'm all about being flexible to attacking unique conditions--but this is a bad idea for all of the reasons mentioned and more.

You don't HAVE to do anything--except council your friend/client that an outdoor wood deck is not a suitable substrate for tile and is a bad investment of time and money.


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## rsss396375 (Aug 11, 2008)

*So....*

do any you set tile outside on a wood framing support system in the cold weather region?
On the West coast, we have a lot of folks, Lake Tahoe and other lake front areas that like the look of tile on their decking; slate, quartz, etc..I've seen it done a few ways, and none of them are waterproof. It sounds that many of the opinions or concerns come from the cold weather or severe climate changes.
There must be some of you experimenting with different wood substates and waterproof membranes.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Warm or cold....freeze or thaw... It's going to take quite a lot to make a wood deck a viable substrate. (i.e.--cost prohibitive)

This isn't some stand-offish judgemental BS... I've been seduced more than a time or two by a client with money who wants something exotic or non-standard.

In the end, you're the one holding the soup sandwich when your best intentions go wrong.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

you should get some information from schluter or noble. I believe they both require a concrete substrate under their products. also, the substrate needs to be pitched. Is your deck sloped? usually not. you'll also need to flash your posts. what your asking to do is below the standard. why put your reputation and expose yourself to the liability when you could easily tell them your deck isn't made for this type of tile job. case closed. you'll still be friends and won't need to be back to fix it next Spring. so tell them after further review you'll take a pass.

olzo


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## Snow Man (Aug 18, 2008)

Too much movement for *any* tiling .

Absolutely no gaurantees


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

snowman, sorry to disagree but yes you can tile outside even in the North. it's just that requirements are much more stringent. can this deck be made to accept a tile job? sure, but at what cost? the last exterior porch i did(last Spring) cost $2100 just in prep work for 240sq/ft. what about outdoor fountains? there's tile there. take a walk through a botanical garden and i'll bet there will be some exterior tile work. it's possible though it's too expensive for most people.


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## akm (Nov 13, 2007)

Looks like an older (and sometimes heated) thread, but wondering if there may be some room for new information and brainstorming.

BTW, recently ran across a system at... 
stonedeckwest.com
...which is made specifically for wood decks and is also discussed to some degree in CT in the Decks forum...
contractortalk.com/f50/designs-decking-46893

But ILO Stonedeck, wondering if there is any substrate suitable for 'stone' tile (or any other 'tile' that may survive freezing temperature in the winter)... ie like 3/4 PWF plywood with stickdown waterproof membrane over, and set the tile in some sort of adhesive that would stick to the membrane but not leach up through the tile or sanded sealant (grout) joints ?

Maybe an outdoor 'tile' shower pan ?

Just a question.


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## Small Jobs (Jun 27, 2012)

*Interesting Debate*

This has all been interesting. How about tiling with porcelain a 3-season porch that is built on 1 1/4" thick cedar deck about 18" above the ground that can be insulated under floor but not heated in winter?


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Small Jobs said:


> This has all been interesting. How about tiling with porcelain a 3-season porch that is built on 1 1/4" thick cedar deck about 18" above the ground that can be insulated under floor but not heated in winter?


Introduce yourself and start a new thread and I'm sure someone will help you out - asking a question on your first post (in a 4 year old thread no-less) probably won't generate too much response


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## Ethos (Feb 21, 2012)

Bud Cline said:


> P-s-s-s-s-t. Cumere!
> Get closer I have to whisper something to you!
> 
> PORCELAIN IS CERAMIC TILE!!!:sad:


Porcelain tile is tile that has been heated to the point of vulcanization, essentially making it into a glass, meaning that it does not absorb water like ceramic tile does. One of the easiest ways to test an unmarked tile to be either ceramic and porcelain is to pour water on the back side of the tile and wait a few minutes. If the water is absorbed, it is ceramic, if not, it is porcelain. Therefore, only porcelain may be used outside to prevent freezing issues.

As for the OP's query, first off, you'll probably have to reinforce the structure to make your deflection acceptable. The easy way to get the homeowner to accept this reality is to say, "I cannot warranty it, and would not feel good about even putting my name on it otherwise." You'll want to strip the decking off so that it won't trap moisture against the substrate cause rot. Even CCA, ACQ and some synthetic decking products will rot or swell with moisture, causing serious problems. 

Then you'll of course want to use a porcelain tile, and a waterproof grout such as a urethane grout, because cementuous grout can absorb water, freeze and blow out, possibly damaging the tile in the process. As for substrates, I'd probably use a CBU product and not a gypsum product, and waterproof the surface with a membrane system like Kerdi, or a liquid membrane like Redgard or the many others recommended on this forum. I'd also contact all the manufacturers of the products you'll be using to make sure they are rated for exterior use. 

I'd leave the underside unsealed to allow breathing of any moisture infiltration, although I'd probably seal the sides (maybe even flash it with roof-edging) and the first few inches of the underside. Even some CBU products like Hardibacker can succumb to swelling. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't see it lift a toilet 1/8" off the floor due to a leak at the flange. The paper fiber in it can swell over prolonged exposure. This might be one of the few times I'd recommend using Wonderboard, because as far as I know, it has no paper-based fiber in it, only fiberglass mesh and foam.

This has and can be done properly, but if you don't feel like losing your shirt, take the steps you must follow into account and charge accordingly :thumbsup:


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## sunkist (Apr 27, 2012)

Bud Cline said:


> Turn and run away! This is a huge bag of worms and you don't have a grasp of what it takes to do soemthing like this. You would be better off letting someone else do this one. You never lose money on a job you don't do.


some times the first answer is the best answer, at the end of the day ditra etc hardie its all sitting on p/t. how can the grout joints hold up as this shinks and warps with time and pops tiles?.


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## Small Jobs (Jun 27, 2012)

*Small Jobs*

Thanks for the input, you've got me thinking!


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