# Basement walls question



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Hey, for finishing a basement -This is for a rental property I own and am going to finish the basement. (800sq ft) will add a bedroom, laundry room, office, bathroom and family room.

>> 1 inch rigid foam insullation board against walls, seal joints.

>> 2x4 framed walls 1 inch gap from insulation, to both allow plumb walls and to run electrical behind studs.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

Have you been watching Holmes on Homes?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Yes, I will use screws to attach everything, including the baseboard and tile.


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## CCCo. (Jul 19, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Yes, I will use screws to attach everything, including the baseboard and tile.


 
Now thats some funny stuff there,.. 

:laughing:


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

I haven't ever done the foam behind the walls thing or seen it around here.But I have seen it on that TV show.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Mike when I frame my walls I check for plumb and square because sometimes I have a wall that is out of plumb by as much as 3 inches, and out of square as much as 4 inches in 3ft. Here in Denver I frame out with 1 inch gap for wires, use paper-faced insulation and make sure to draft stop behind plates at walls and every 10 LF along walls floor to ceiling so draft can't run aorund room. I use pt plate and float 2 inches if over slab.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*Finley....*

I hope you have one of these ........ you ever have a fire~ your screwed....lawyers 

Brian


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## Wayfarer Doors (Feb 2, 2010)

mike, I found alot of great info at Building Science. com. Go to their seminar handouts adn there's alot of information and logic, as to how to finish your basement. I went with 2" Sm, then framed in front of with 2 X4 spruce. Have also used steel, but a little more money and I'm not so sure about the bridging. Put full insulation between studs and go down to the floor with both Sm and fiberglass. I also notched the Sm around the joists to seal up the joist spaces as well.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

knucklehead said:


> I haven't ever done the foam behind the walls thing or seen it around here.But I have seen it on that TV show.


I'm talking about rigid insulation actually, not spray foam.



PrestigeR&D said:


> I hope you have one of these ........ you ever have a fire~ your screwed....lawyers
> 
> Brian


Yep, that's where the bedroom comes from and why the other room would be an office cause it doesn't have any egress.



kevjob said:


> I use pt plate and float 2 inches if over slab.


You're talking about a 2 inch gap with float wall construction I take it and not floating your PT bottom plate 2 inches.

These will be floating walls too.

I'm also considering doing it in metal.



Wayfarer Doors said:


> I went with 2" Sm, then framed in front of with 2 X4 spruce. Have also used steel, but a little more money and I'm not so sure about the bridging. Put full insulation between studs and go down to the floor with both Sm and fiberglass. I also notched the Sm around the joists to seal up the joist spaces as well.


Okay, why can't I figure out what SM is?


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Mike - just hire the lowest priced contractor you can find (this is after getting at least 17 estimates).

Then when they run off with your deposit, your whole basement is ed up, you can cry to Mike Holmes and he can come out to your rental and turn it into the Taj Mahal - of course, you would have no say in products, layout, colors, anything, because, after all, it is Mike Holmes....



:laughing:


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*Basement...*

OK- I still don't get your answer Milke...maybe your egress code is different in CO. Here in NY the minute some is residing in the basement as living quarters ie: bedroom - you must have an Egress out of the basement. 

As far as Inso/framing - Why don;t you steel stud the walls- A hell of a easier ......as far as insulation- Dow board 1.5" Inso spot tacked on the wall with adhesive, SS framing.


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## davitk (Oct 3, 2008)

Here in WI you don't need ANY insulation in the basement walls per code... rigid polystyrene behind the studs seems a no brainer to me but why seal the joints?


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## BKBroiler (Jul 13, 2010)

*Yeah*

I've not heard of, at least to my local standards, needing insulation in the basement of that type.


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

In my region 1" rigid wouldn't be enough. You need about r12 in the walls to 4' below grade. I like the system though - keep fiberglass insulation off the concrete. I suppose you could insulate the stud cavity with fibreglass to bump up the R value. What are you going to install on the floor?


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## Wayfarer Doors (Feb 2, 2010)

Sorry Mike, SM is what we call rigid styrofoam. No foil, not expanded(the white pearly stuff), usually blue or pink and about R5 per inch.


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## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

I use 1 1/2 foil back foam taped joints
against concrete
2x4 wall in front of that( I only space it enough to accommodate plumbness)I'm not sure that's a word 

This is a system I am confident with

The problem people have around here is insulating the rims 
Their are still people sticking batts in the rims resulting in no vapor barrier

I like to spray foam from first floor floor sheeting down to the top of the ins sheets
just 1 1/2-2" thick and you have sealed the whole wall

No loose batts anywhere


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

davitk said:


> Here in WI you don't need ANY insulation in the basement walls per code... rigid polystyrene behind the studs seems a no brainer to me but why seal the joints?


The ridgid foam (XPS - finally remembered the name for the stuff) is to keep warm air from getting to the cold basement foundation wall and creating condesation. So you cover the joints to keep the warm air from getting to the foundation wall through the cracks.





nailkiller1 said:


> I use 1 1/2 foil back foam taped joints
> against concrete
> 2x4 wall in front of that( I only space it enough to accommodate plumbness)I'm not sure that's a word


Isn't that foil creating a vapor barrier against the masonary wall? How is moisture moving from the foundation wall to dry out?


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Water proof the walls, 6mil plastic, ridgid foam insulation, frame the walls at least one inch off..

A Permiter drain with the plastic leading down to it would be ideal.. 

But the water proofing cuts down on moisture and condensation considerably.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

rbsremodeling said:


> Water proof the walls, 6mil plastic, ridgid foam insulation, frame the walls at least one inch off..
> 
> A Permiter drain with the plastic leading down to it would be ideal..
> 
> But the water proofing cuts down on moisture and condensation considerably.


Plastic then ridgid foam?

If there is not a perimeter drain, how do you terminate the plastic at floor level? What do you do about moisture that may get behind there?

Just curious, not questioning technique.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

CookeCarpentry said:


> Plastic then ridgid foam?
> 
> If there is not a perimeter drain, how do you terminate the plastic at floor level? What do you do about moisture that may get behind there?
> 
> Just curious, not questioning technique.


Duct tape it to the floor and frame on top of it. 

Waterproof the walls.. Drylock or Throseal. 

The moisture is there regardless. Perimiter drain would be ideal.. 

The water evaporates, its minimal with the water proofing


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

You put in a perimeter drain on every basement remodel with this technique? I don't think I'd be wanting that plastic on the walls creating water traping issues. Water proof the walls would be fine since that if successful is keeping the moisture out of the interior side of the masonary walls, but adding that plastic would have the potential to trap moisture. XPS breathes allowing the walls to dry to the interior as long as you don't put up any further vapor barriers after it.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I say no plastic


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> You put in a perimeter drain on every basement remodel with this technique? I don't think I'd be wanting that plastic on the walls creating condesation issues. Water proof the walls would be fine since that if successful is keeping the moisture out of the interior side of the masonary walls, but adding that plastic would have the potential to trap moisture. XPS breathes allowing the walls to dry to the interior as long as you don't put up any further vapor barriers after it.


The majority of them get the perimeter drain.. Some don't, Thoroseal will keep the moisture down to a minimum but is a ***** to apply if you have never worked with it.. I have never used the XPS if it breathes then the plastic may not be a good idea..

I have seen what the moisture does to the insulation, drywall and studs when it gets to it.. So I try my damnest to keep it away..

All our basments get Waterproofed and the plastic, I will have to look at the XPS insulation


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> > 2x4 framed walls 1 inch gap from insulation, to both allow plumb walls and to run electrical behind studs.


I used to frame walls similar to this working for a framing company. Didn't make sense to me with the square footage you lose due to wall thickness. Haven't tried these before http://www.ovrx.com/installing-wall-panels.html but they look slick.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I kept re-reading your post. 

Perimeter drains = french drains? (perforated pipe under the slab near the interior foundation wall, sloped to a sump pump)

I think this comes down to 2 existing conditions - a 'wet' basement vs a 'dry'. Wet - meaning moisture/water that is penetrating foundation walls or floor and wet enough to create a wet surface, such as enough that would require perimeter/french drains to a sump pump, and dry - meaning no water, no visible moisture that is penetrating a foundation wall or floor.

The dry basement we should be concerned with moisture caused by condensation when the warm conditioned air hits the cold foundation wall and moving that water through the air through evaporation, the wet basement we should be concerned with moving water by gravity down and out of the basement.

I can see the plastic on a wet basement where you want to move that water down the wall and out by gravity to the drain and pump and the plastic keeps the moisture off the wall material. With a dry basement it seems that the plastic would be a problem. 

The question to me is how do we make these determinations between that we are being asked to remodel a wet or a dry basement? For me I have only finished basements for properties I have owned so I know the history of them over a couple of seasons usually. But walking into a house you know nothing about is a different story. Since, it doesn't seem like all wall systems work for all conditions.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

KennMacMoragh said:


> I used to frame walls similar to this working for a framing company. Didn't make sense to me with the square footage you lose due to wall thickness. Haven't tried these before http://www.ovrx.com/installing-wall-panels.html but they look slick.


Lot of electrical installation head aches with something like that.

I think the 1" XPS rigid foam and 2x3 framing against it would be a better method if you had to compromise on the rigid foam/2x4 wall scenario.

Obvioulsy there are a lot of ways to skin the cat


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

KennMacMoragh said:


> I used to frame walls similar to this working for a framing company. Didn't make sense to me with the square footage you lose due to wall thickness. Haven't tried these before http://www.ovrx.com/installing-wall-panels.html but they look slick.



You gotta like the way they insist you get a qualified 
electrician and follow building code...............................
after they just slide the romex into a notch in the insulation.
Honey,
why did the lights go out after you hung that picture?:whistling

Edit;
Got me by a sec.on that post Mike!


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> The question to me is how do we make these determinations between that we are being asked to remodel a wet or a dry basement?


When you come up with a tried and true answer to that....

open Rocky Mountain Basements....


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

oldfrt said:


> You gotta like the way they insist you get a qualified
> electrician and follow building code...............................
> after they just slide the romex into a notch in the insulation.
> Honey,
> ...


It's a Canadian company, maybe you're allowed to do that up there, I don't know. I'd imagine there's a way to make that work around here though and comply with electrical code.


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## nailkiller1 (Jan 15, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> The ridgid foam (XPS - finally remembered the name for the stuff) is to keep warm air from getting to the cold basement foundation wall and creating condesation. So you cover the joints to keep the warm air from getting to the foundation wall through the cracks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The basement wall is not straight
either is the foam
I fasten just enough to get the walls up
you end up with a gap between the two(concrete and foam)


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

Mike, I know you are getting a lot of different answers here but the key is to find out what people are doing in your area. As different parts of the country may require slightly different techniques. 
for me. I put Rigid foam, tape the seams, stud the wall against the foam, but a gap is ok too if you want to run plumbing or wiring. I then put encapsulated R-13 for added insulation, plastic over that, then drywall. That way the moisture isn't going to get to the drywall from the backside and cause mold issues. Some guys may or may not use plastic but reading on finished basements over the past few years, that is what I have decided to do. The rigid foam should keep the studs from getting excessive moisture to them and causing problems. Steel studs are also a good idea if you work with them enough. I am about to finish my own basment and will be using steel studs for sure over those drycore floor panels.


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## davitk (Oct 3, 2008)

This job has one layer of 1 1/2" glued to the concrete, covered with 1/2", seams staggered. When pulling the permit the inspector specifically stated he wanted no vapor barrier. That black stuff growing on the inside of the plastic can be pretty ugly...

Oh, and there was going to be a one inch gap between the studs and foam but darn that foundation wall was crooked. :blink:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

davitk said:


> This job has one layer of 1 1/2" glued to the concrete, covered with 1/2", seams staggered. When pulling the permit the inspector specifically stated he wanted no vapor barrier. That black stuff growing on the inside of the plastic can be pretty ugly...
> 
> Oh, and there was going to be a one inch gap between the studs and foam but darn that foundation wall was crooked. :blink:


copy cat:w00t:



Pressure assist toilet or inwall tank toilet?


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

That's a concealed cistern toilet. Used to fit them back in the uk. Pretty nice bits of kit. Not cheap though. Getting too the inside of that cistern for service is awful though. Some of them have the pan so it looks like it's floating. Which is that model from what I can see.


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

Framed out offers more flexibility. I don't like the limitations of rigid. I would also consider spraying if the need was there (usually not).

You can frame out with 2x3's or 4's, space issues considered. I prefer wood but metal is acceptable if that floats your boat. With 4's you can go 24 OC.

No wood shall come in contact with concrete. Build out by about 1", factoring the straightness of existing. Batts in between studs (regular). 6mm poly overlay, lapped min. 6", tuct taped @ seams, with enough to fit into joist spaces above. Stapled on the face, acoustical caulk on edges (ie. floor), where bottom sill contacts concrete floor install gasket barrier.

Make sure to have a CONTINUOUS V.B. & electrical/plumbing cut-outs in v.b. boxes/nicely sealed with tuct tape.

I never proceed with this until I'm certain we're dealing with a dry basement & address waterproofing/drainage first. Some people believe 2lb poly spray (for example) offers better protection due to it's chemical composition in more moisture rich applications. Not true. There's nothing you can do that isn't going to come back to haunt you if there are existing moisture issues that I'm aware of/accept.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Just got back, me and my 2 guys framed out 2/3rds of it today. 

The reverse floating walls in the bathroom were a son of a *****!

Should have all the framing done with a 1/2 day tomorrow. Have a few interior walls to do, a couple of small runs of exterior walls and the soffits. Fun to get my hands dirty again.


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## CookeCarpentry (Feb 26, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Fun to get my hands dirty again.


 
I want pictures, no one believes you work! :w00t:


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