# New construction mark up same as service call mark up?



## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

Opinions please,
If you do new construction and service calls, do you charge the same hourly rate/ mark-up?
I went with a new plumber for my current project knowing his labor charge was going to be higher, but he does really clean work and I was willing to pay for that. 
The last house was roughed in for 6500. This one (same size,baths, etc) cost me 9600.00. 4000$ labor. 5600$ parts. 
I know it was my fault, I didn't get an estimate. (Which I always do, even with subs I normally work with)
Btw I was willing to pay more for the quality, as this is my personal house. 
All that's left to do is pay the bill and not use him again. 
I can understand 100% mark up on service calls, but new construction?


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

It really doesn't matter what his markup is. 

It sounds like you didn't do your homework in having him bid the job up front nor did you sign a subcontract agreement with him and now you're trying to nitpick him because you don't like his price after the fact.

For his sake, pay the bill and be done.

If you want to play GC and submit bids for jobs without bidding them to your subs and suppliers first, then you better be willing to step up to the plate when your budgets fall short.


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

I think you missed the question. Just wondering how other plumbers look at service calls vs new construction. 
I didn't say I didn't F up on not having a contract. 
And I am not "playing contractor" I have been licensed and bonded since 1997.


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## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

I guess I fail to understand how the question applies to the problem at hand.

The problem that I see described is this plumbers invoice is $4k more than you were expecting. Now after the fact, you're trying to figure out how he got there. 

You should have discussed his rates and/or pricing of the job before he started work, so there would be no question when it came time for the invoice. 

So no, I didn't miss your question. I just think it's the wrong question for the situation at hand.


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

Just ask him.
Think about what is different, materials or labour.
Generally more expensive fixtures cost more to install as well.
There may be a very simple explanation.
Maybe you still got a good deal.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm a master plumber and have done both sides for many years now.

New construction is about 1/2 the rate of service. Mark-up is pretty much less than 10%.

Service standards are entirely different. Mark-up can be as high as 1000%, it just depends.

New construction is so competitive right now that for many people it's not even worth bidding.


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

Oconomowoc said:


> I'm a master plumber and have done both sides for many years now.
> 
> New construction is about 1/2 the rate of service. Mark-up is pretty much less than 10%.
> 
> ...


Thank you for understanding the question. 

I charge more to frame additions and remodels than I do for new construction because of the added issues and smaller sq/ft
The last house I framed for 3.50 sq/ft 
The last addition was around 10.00$ sq/ft

15 years ago the contractor I worked for wouldn't step on the job for less than 5$.....


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## SSC (Feb 8, 2011)

its still your fault. you should know to ask for a price and contract first before any work is done. especially if the sub is new.


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

B.D.R. said:


> Just ask him.
> Think about what is different, materials or labour.
> Generally more expensive fixtures cost more to install as well.
> There may be a very simple explanation.
> Maybe you still got a good deal.


I really was just wondering how other plumbers view the two. 
His bill is very itemized though, it lists every part he used. That's where I started getting heartburn. 

For example.
ABS Wye 3". Qty 3 rate 12.00 total 36.00
ABS coupling 3". Qty 1 rate 4.00 
ABS 45 3". Qty 4. Rate8.34 Total 33.36
Those are the actual numbers


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

RemodelGA said:


> I guess I fail to understand how the question applies to the problem at hand.
> 
> The problem that I see described is this plumbers invoice is $4k more than you were expecting. Now after the fact, you're trying to figure out how he got there.
> 
> ...


Again I said I expected to pay more for his work, therefore, I budgeted more. So it is not 4k over budget. 
And I knew his rate at the time. 
But no, did not expect 100% mark up.
And his invoice tells me exactly how he got there. I knew how he got there before I started this thread. 
But thanks for your insight.


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

100% mark up? Hows your rear feel?


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> 100% mark up? Hows your rear feel?


I know,right? 
Lol


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

You ever seen a poor plumber?...:whistling:no::thumbup:


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

SSC said:


> its still your fault. you should know to ask for a price and contract first before any work is done. especially if the sub is new.


I don't think at anytime did I say it wasn't my fault. 
I've been in business long enough to know better. 
I think I was very clear in indicating that I Effed up. 
Or F'ed up. (Depending on what pert of the country you are in)


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

griz said:


> You ever seen a poor plumber?...:whistling:no::thumbup:


I would have been one, but I couldn't stop biting my nails!


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Sabagley said:


> Thank you for understanding the question.
> 
> I charge more to frame additions and remodels than I do for new construction because of the added issues and smaller sq/ft
> The last house I framed for 3.50 sq/ft
> ...


Materials need to be carried on a service truck, this costs money. So when a service guy roughs in a new house guess what? Costs are more?

Back when I did new construction I would do a material take off and and just have the wholesaler drop everything off. No inventory needed. 

New construction is very different because it's highly predictable. Predictable jobs are easy to bid so the value of the job decreases. It becomes a commodity. I can bid a new house in a matter of minutes, it's effortless. 

A remodel on the other hand takes hours to bid sometimes and even then I can be wrong. Price goes up.

I really enjoyed new construction but it's a young mans sport and the industry has really suffered quality issues because of it. To make decent money you have to send out a 25 year old guy and beat him with a whip. Those days are over for me.

Service and remodel is where it's at.


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## B.D.R. (May 22, 2007)

Sounds like he burned a perfectly good bridge.
I would expect better treatment from one of my subs.
Hope it was worth it to him.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Satisfy my curiosity please. Briefly describe the house. Two story? Ranch? split baths? fiberglass mods? 

I just like doing the math.....for old time sake. :laughing:


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## 5starbuilders (Jan 22, 2011)

griz said:


> You ever seen a poor plumber?...:whistling:no::thumbup:


No, but I have seen a lot of poor carpenters


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

The minimum bid for hours on a basic ranch.......

A.) 2 bath ranch - back to back bathrooms.
B.) 2- 5' shower mods
C.) lauundy box only
D.) 2 hose bibbs
E.) City sewer
F.) City water
G.) standard ceiling height
H.) 4" lav faucets
I.) Gas is iron pipe
J.) Gas to furnace, water heater and dryer
K.) copper sweat water distribution.

*Total hours*

42 hours

That's the minimum. it's the starting point.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

I just checked my folders, breaks down like this......

22 rough
4 gas
4 fixtures
12 water and clean up
---------------------
42 hours

42 X $75 = $3,150 labor

Mark-up materials $300 (which is really just a safety net)

$3,450 in the job + materials


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Now here is what I use to do when I was in my 20's

underfloor in about 6 hours
tie stacks in about 3
rough main floor DWV in about 3
water drops, set tubs and hang tub/shower tree in about 2

gas it in about 4

set fixtures in about 3
water pipe and fire water in about 8

that's 29 hours? That's pretty accurate, but that was when I was in my 20's. It was a young mans sport. :laughing:


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

in my 40's coffee runs take up 4 hours

talking to tradesman eats up about 15

talking to the inspector takes about 3

getting tools back and fourth takes about 4

:laughing:


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

SSC said:


> its still your fault. you should know to ask for a price and contract first before any work is done. especially if the sub is new.


He wasn't entirely new. He had done some work on an insurance job for me. He also plumbed a house that I framed for another GC. 

But again read the OP. 
I have my big boy pants on.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

So you just paid some more tuition towards your Masters Degree from the School of Hard Knocks....:thumbup:


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

Yessir, it happens. 

But then again I am building myself a shiny new shack. Must of figured something out along the way. 
If your gonna be dumb, ya better be tough! Ha


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Sabagley said:


> I have my big boy pants on.


You must be from LA. :laughing:


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

Sabagley said:


> I have my big boy pants on.


I prefer big boy thongs. 

My crack gets chafed easier but there not as binding in the midsection. 

Makes bending over all day a lot easier, and the boys appreciate the show, and their wives, a lot more at the end of the day. 

Just some food for thought...


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## rex (Jul 2, 2007)

I would never itemize a new construction invoice, that is dumb, huge waste of time. F-that.

I charge 800-1000 per fixture.

Just did a doll house, most chopped up house ever! 2.5 baths and it took me 5 days to rough. 

I did new construction plumbing/heating almost daily for 10 years. Those days are gone only work for two builders now.

I get 105 for a service call just to show up, plus major mark up on parts. I'm good at what I do and it reflects in my price. Always busy.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Mud Master said:


> I prefer big boy thongs.
> 
> My crack gets chafed easier but there not as binding in the midsection.
> 
> ...


Ouch. :wallbash:



A.T.C. said:


> You must be from LA. :laughing:


This was a comment on the Kobe Bryant/Pau Gasol big boy pants thing.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Sabagley said:


> I don't think at anytime did I say it wasn't my fault.
> I've been in business long enough to know better.
> I think I was very clear in indicating that I Effed up.
> Or F'ed up. (Depending on what pert of the country you are in)


This is that moment in life where you set down with the man and have a one on one. You have enough experience to know if the final tally is out of line before even asking here.

There is nothing wrong with challenging the final bill - just a fact where I come from - and it was always ME justifying to THEM why they should pay X amount.

Yes, you are going to pay, and yes you may have to bend over a little - but right about that moment is where you have to "Squeal like a pig!!!"


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## Squench (Dec 23, 2006)

Well to the original question I say no, the markup on new const is not the same generally, that's why I avoid it. It's hard to make money dealing with change orders and punch lists and other trades using your holes and getting in the way. 
I agree with whoever said service work is where it's at! Fast turnaround $
I'd rather do 10 calls on repair work and average $275 ea. than work for a week in the sun (or SNOW) and have to shake down a stingy GC for m check. Homeowners are usually thankful and appreciate your effort, as opposed to getting nitpicked and having to do a GDamd dance for a draw. 
OP you seem like an exception to the norm. you paid up:/
/rant


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Squench said:


> Well to the original question I say no, the markup on new const is not the same generally, that's why I avoid it. It's hard to make money dealing with change orders and punch lists and other trades using your holes and getting in the way.
> I agree with whoever said service work is where it's at! Fast turnaround $
> I'd rather do 10 calls on repair work and average $275 ea. than work for a week in the sun (or SNOW) and have to shake down a stingy GC for m check. Homeowners are usually thankful and appreciate your effort, as opposed to getting nitpicked and having to do a GDamd dance for a draw.
> OP you seem like an exception to the norm. you paid up:/
> /rant


Yeah, nothing like getting paid the same day you work.


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## Sabagley (Dec 31, 2012)

Squench said:


> Well to the original question I say no, the markup on new const is not the same generally, that's why I avoid it. It's hard to make money dealing with change orders and punch lists and other trades using your holes and getting in the way.
> I agree with whoever said service work is where it's at! Fast turnaround $
> I'd rather do 10 calls on repair work and average $275 ea. than work for a week in the sun (or SNOW) and have to shake down a stingy GC for m check. Homeowners are usually thankful and appreciate your effort, as opposed to getting nitpicked and having to do a GDamd dance for a draw.
> OP you seem like an exception to the norm. you paid up:/
> /rant


If it was a paying job I would have had a solid price and probably wouldn't have even had a second thought about the difference between the two price schedules. 
We all have to dance for a draw, sometimes it takes up to three weeks just for the draw processor to come out and take pics. Then another two weeks for them to process it. Then 7-10 day hold after it has been deposited. It's Fn ridiculous. 
Maybe it's not this bad everywhere, but the new construction loan market is really limited here.


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