# Hardibacker w/Kerdi vs. Denseshield



## PrecisionFloors

CO762 said:


> *But is it necessary to waterproof a vertical surface?* I don't see any need for it unless one is selling a product that does. He could just use a regular CBU and be fine as millions of units have been done this way. If he has any concerns, he could redguard the lower portions, joints and make sure he caulks the bottom joint line good. All for $39.
> Or skip most of that and just use denshield in the first place.


Is it necessary to insulate a house? Is it necessary to paint? Is it necessary to even tile? 

Point is there are a LOT of things in life that aren't absolutely necessary....we do them anyway, and for most, a damned good reason. 

I can tell my customer's, for certain, without fail, that my installations are water*proof*. I don't do the bare minimum. I go above and beyond what is just acceptable.

Can you?

edit: I just recently gained a client _specifically_ because of what they read here, concerning my use of Schluter products in my showers.

How many customers have you gained _specifically_ because you don't waterproof? I'd venture to say any that you do, will be a price driven pita. Just a hunch.


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## R&D Tile

> All for $39.



:laughing::w00t::laughing:


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## CO762

PrecisionFloors said:


> Point is there are a LOT of things in life that aren't absolutely necessary....we do them anyway, and for most, a damned good reason.


And that's how you market yourself....and you can get a client to pay for the "extras". Unless you do it for free? Or at cost w/o any labor charge?
That's fine, nothing wrong with that. If that's how you market yourself and it works for ya....have at it.



> I can tell my customer's, for certain, without fail, that my installations are water*proof*.


And if one uses denshield and, say aquadefense/HPG/redgard, it will be also. Or even a generic cbu w/the latter coating it. 
Or are you saying that only the schluter version of nobelseal is waterproof?



> I don't do the bare minimum. I go above and beyond what is just acceptable.


Are you confusing "bare minumum" with "industry standards"? When I used hardibacker on walls, I'd still put 9235 or redgard about a foot up from the bottom and over all 90s. Industry standards? Nope. But i do it. Does that mean if I don't do it, it'll fail? Nope. It'll still be fine.



> Like I said, that's how you do business.


I guess you don't know much about me....

I like to give them a little extra also, but I won't work for free and/or give products for free.
Do you take out their plastic pan and give them a custom pan for free?
Me neither. If they want it and will pay for it, they get it. If they don't want the extra costs, then they get to keep their plastic pan



> edit: I just recently gained a client _specifically_ because of what they read here, concerning my use of Schluter products in my showers.


Like I said, schluter incorporated is nothing more than a marketing machine. ya get a bunch of people *(usually all the same ones for some reason)* on a bunch of different boards that repeat over and over the miracle of their product (but w/o much in the way of facts to back it up), and they are the "official widget installers" in their area and it'll only work using their widget. 

Did this sell him/her?










Didja tell him/her that same thing can be made with denshield?
Didja tell him/her that same thing can be made with any common substrate and nobleseal?

Didja tell him her anything other than the product you and a handful of others are marketing on all the different boards? Curious to see what the answer is....but me thinketh I already know....



> How many customers have you gained _specifically_ because you don't waterproof?


Are you angry at me? It seems like a lot of the schluter-bots are pretty emotionally invested in the products/friends/bosses of that line. I can see if you---say, own an internet board and make money off peddling those wares to homeowners/DIYs, but the emotional reactions I see seem a little strange. My unsolicited input.










Isn't that john bridge on the right? Doesn't he own an internet tile board? Aren't most of the schluter proponents here also are long time members there also?
And who is the schluter guy on the left again?
Where are they again?
That's weird....

BTW, I give my prospects an array of options, explaining the pros/cons/costs of each and let them pick. But then again, I've never been to a "schluter/kerdi/ditra skool".....


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## Kyras

Nope. nope I'm not gonna say anything.

It's kinda like arguing for/against abortion. A lot of words go back and forth.
No one changes sides much.


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## The Coastal Craftsman

I have used almost every membrane/tanking system on the market. UK has many more than the US has and they all done the same thing. The one issue i do have with the systems is leak detection. I have been to customers over the years where they had leaks showing under where the wet areas were. They were always a nightmare to track the leak. The water would access somewhere in the wet area then migrate across the membranes to a total different area. Some took most of the day to test with 2 guys on the job. The worst ones would only show a leak after 10-15mins of water being run in a specific area and rooms were massive. Gone were the days of the leak was right below the area that it was leaking.


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## CO762

Don't a lot of people in the UK use carpet glue to glue down ditra?
I've done both, glue and mud. For any repairs or "oops, we didn't like the color", mud came up very very easy, just a flat bar and a shove. For the carpet glue, it took a few illegals about a 1/2 a day of sweating, grunting and cursing. :laughing:


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## The Coastal Craftsman

CO762 said:


> Don't a lot of people in the UK use carpet glue to glue down ditra?
> I've done both, glue and mud. For any repairs or "oops, we didn't like the color", mud came up very very easy, just a flat bar and a shove. For the carpet glue, it took a few illegals about a 1/2 a day of sweating, grunting and cursing. :laughing:


 
Ditra is used in the UK but no where near as much as self adhesive membranes. I found a distributer who was willing to ship to the US but i had to order a min quantity of far more than i would use in about 10 years. You can waterproof a whole wet room 10x10 in less than an hour with zero mess and you can tile onto it instantly. The other pic is the shower trays for wetrooms that have built in pre slope and the membrane sticks straight over rite and then you have your surface ready to go. I am waiting for the day we can get them over here. Life would be much easier doing bathrooms and wetrooms.


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## CO762

BCConstruction said:


> Ditra is used in the UK but no where near as much as self adhesive membranes.


What do they adhere to? Are you talking about in pans?
I've used sheet membranes, but never trusted the self-adhesion types enough, so I've used ones that require a primer. I truly dread demo'ing anything that's been stuck down on latricrete's 150 membrane as it's a real smear to get off. 

Ditra, set per mfg instructions, just flies off, so fast I have to make sure I go slow so I don't cause damage by flying debris.

Not had to demo any easymat yet. Lately I've used some mapei's mat, but not had to demo that either. Am now using mapei's HPG and will get more into the liquid membranes as they seem the best of all worlds.
BTW, I'm testing HPG to see if it will prevent fraying of a razor cut in my pants. Seriously.

If you're not into floating your own pans, there are many different kits out there. I think there are even tile ready prefab pans I think.

For your larger rooms, there's sheet membranes here from a variety of manufacturers. Sheet membranes have their place, but so do liquid ones.



> I am waiting for the day we can get them over here. Life would be much easier doing bathrooms and wetrooms.


...in the meantime, see all of what we have here. I've found that no one product works for all I do. Like I said, I did one house that I used easymat, ditra and hardibacker on, all in different rooms for different reasons. The pan I floated because it was an odd shape. I used hardi and a liner on that pan, but am going to switch to a liquid membrane for pans also.

Many items out there and it's best to be an informed contractor so we can not only work more efficiently, but also offer an array of different products with different costs to our clients.

It'd be interesting to learn more about how ya'll do it over there also.....


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## The Coastal Craftsman

CO762 said:


> What do they adhere to? Are you talking about in pans?
> I've used sheet membranes, but never trusted the self-adhesion types enough, so I've used ones that require a primer. I truly dread demo'ing anything that's been stuck down on latricrete's 150 membrane as it's a real smear to get off.
> 
> Ditra, set per mfg instructions, just flies off, so fast I have to make sure I go slow so I don't cause damage by flying debris.
> 
> Not had to demo any easymat yet. Lately I've used some mapei's mat, but not had to demo that either. Am now using mapei's HPG and will get more into the liquid membranes as they seem the best of all worlds.
> BTW, I'm testing HPG to see if it will prevent fraying of a razor cut in my pants. Seriously.
> 
> If you're not into floating your own pans, there are many different kits out there. I think there are even tile ready prefab pans I think.
> 
> For your larger rooms, there's sheet membranes here from a variety of manufacturers. Sheet membranes have their place, but so do liquid ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...in the meantime, see all of what we have here. I've found that no one product works for all I do. Like I said, I did one house that I used easymat, ditra and hardibacker on, all in different rooms for different reasons. The pan I floated because it was an odd shape. I used hardi and a liner on that pan, but am going to switch to a liquid membrane for pans also.
> 
> Many items out there and it's best to be an informed contractor so we can not only work more efficiently, but also offer an array of different products with different costs to our clients.
> 
> It'd be interesting to learn more about how ya'll do it over there also.....


 
The self adhesive membranes use some advanced adhesive. If you touch it into the wrong place on the wall then expect to pull the wall down before pulling the membrane of the wall. Also when you push 2 pieces of the membrane together it becomes one piece. almost like amalgamating rubber does but in much bigger scale. After pushing them together theres no way to separate them so you get a 100% waterproof seal. They can handle 300psi+ of pressure which is much higher than any breathable membrane.


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## gallerytungsten

What are some of the brand names of these self adhesive membranes?


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## CO762

BCConstruction said:


> The self adhesive membranes use some advanced adhesive. If you touch it into the wrong place on the wall then expect to pull the wall down before pulling the membrane of the wall.



Sounds like carpet glue. I've stuck down ditra with that and it's pretty much down.....better not have to do any repairs, change orders, etc unless you've got a lot of bodies to burn thru.



> Also when you push 2 pieces of the membrane together it becomes one piece. almost like amalgamating rubber does but in much bigger scale. After pushing them together theres no way to separate them so you get a 100% waterproof seal.


"rubber" is an amazing thing. It'd be interesting to learn more about those. I think a lot of the sheet membranes for floors, the primer I'd guess contains something that breaks down the "rubber", so when you lay it down, it "melts" the "rubber" and impregnates itself into the concrete. After struggling to pull up some laticrete 150 on a few occasions, this has led me to think this and to thank metabo. 

I used contact cement the other day to stick an anti-fracture membrane on some DW. The membrane stuck to a lot of it, but when the DW was feathered out, it'd not stick to the mud. But like whenever you use contact cement, your first shot better be accurate.....


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## shovel13

This has been an interesting thread as i have a shower stall to finish eventually in my shop. 

Next is several of you mentioning using carpet glue for some of the areas you work on and my thoughts are i hope you know carpet glue is water soluble.


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## eXpatRioteX

Without going into the arguments.... I like the kerdi products, but installing is a little tricky for me, i have to get the mix just right especially over backer board. It helps to moisten the backer first. Next time i use it i may try just using sheet rock instead. I like that its a complete system, and there is alot of support for it. I use it for complete showers. The densshield/guard stuff seems ok, i havent used it but i'm getting ready finish a job someone else started using it. Looks just like sheetrock with a coating of redguard on it, except its blue. I'm using it on a tub surround, and i think its adequate for that use. Redguard is the easiest to use, and it seems pretty effective. I like to use it on subfloors near exterior doors and around toilets too. I find alot of places to use it. You can tear it easily with a trowel, so go easy.


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## CO762

shovel13 said:


> This has been an interesting thread as i have a shower stall to finish eventually in my shop.
> 
> Next is several of you mentioning using carpet glue for some of the areas you work on and my thoughts are i hope you know carpet glue is water soluble.


If your shower is getting water below your substrate, the carpet glue is the least of your worries.


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## CO762

eXpatRioteX said:


> I like the kerdi products, but installing is a little tricky for me, i have to get the mix just right especially over backer board.


The main problem with any sheet membranes is you literally have to do it twice. The first part is to install the backer, square it up, etc. The second part is you have to do whatever to install the membrane over what you just stuck up.

My thinking is if you have to stick up any substrate, just do it once. If you feel you need waterproofing, use a coated product like denshield. If you don't use any pre-coated sheetstock, then put up CBU and you'll be fine unless for steam app. If there were some problems with these backers, they'd still not be fore sale--think about it, their liability. Do it right and you'll have no problems.

Shower walls/tub surrounds are no brainers. Benches/niches are slightly more complex, but not too much. What makes it is the pan and curb. If you don't feel comfortable with making your own and don't want to spend the kajillions for a prefab or you have a client that doesn't/won't, then, just use a store bought plastic one and take it from there. Tens of millions are out there and they work fine.


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## angus242

CO762 said:


> If there were some problems with these backers, they'd still not be fore sale--think about it, their liability. Do it right and you'll have no problems.


WRONG!! I can go less than 1 mile to a Home Depot right down the street from me and buy romex. Although, I cannot use that romex in my house due to local building codes. And if I go a few aisles over, what do I see? Is that greenboard?

What is sold has nothing to do with how it's used or it's performance.

And if you're using liquid membranes, be sure to follow manufacturer recommended thicknesses otherwise you're just painting with pretty colors! :thumbsup:


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## Greg from K/W

Co I really wish you would bugger off with the kerdi bot crap. I am just learning about these systems you are an jerk man. If you have a point make it but stop your bashing crap please. I am willing and able to learn from you no problem I if you keep it up I will put you in my ignore list. 

Bashing Schluter is no way to make your case for another product. Your acting like a child in this thread that isn't getting his own way. Start another thread on Schluter ulternatives if you like. I will read it and learn from you. But why all this hate? Its disgusting.


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## CO762

angus242 said:


> And if I go a few aisles over, what do I see? Is that greenboard?


In the tile section? And if it were in the tile section, why couldn't greenboard be used in....say a backsplash? Or areas out side the shower/bath?



> And if you're using liquid membranes, be sure to follow manufacturer recommended thicknesses otherwise you're just painting with pretty colors! :thumbsup:


That makes sense. That's why I use fabric. When I used CBU for, say a shower bench, I'd paint on some $39/pail redguard. I did that twice. I don't think I really needed to as it had a good slope, but I still did it. Now that I'm going with denshield, I can eliminate that extra precaution and just stick to the 90s.

KW Greg, this has turned into quite the p%#$*#( contest going on longer than should be, so I'm backing out. :cowboy:


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## Greg from K/W

You calling people names hasn't helped bud. Like i said in the other thread I am willing to learn but name calling isn't part of what I am here to learn.


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