# Do we have any recourse againist the sub



## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

backhoe1 said:


> I don't pay any bill that I don't receive!!





Leo G said:


> If he doesn't give an invoice to get his money then he doesn't get his money. That's the way it works. I am not going to hunt you down to pay you. You need to be responsible enough to give an invoice. After all the work is done, you would think they would like to get paid.:blink:


I have been in a similar situation where the sub never submitted a bill for work done. 6 or 8 months went by and I was approached with the wheres my money thing. I told him that unless he sent a bill there would be no pay. I expected to see one shortly afterward but he never sent it.:blink:

Some people are just sorry business men. 
Thats been two years ago and I have crossed paths with the individual several times and he has yet to produce a bill for the work. In fact he never mentioned the money again. It was less than $300 so I guess he just wrote it off as a stupid mistake but still...


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Leo G said:


> If he doesn't give an invoice to get his money then he doesn't get his money. That's the way it works. I am not going to hunt you down to pay you. You need to be responsible enough to give an invoice. After all the work is done, you would think they would like to get paid.:blink:


It depends on the terms of the contract. The way it works for me is this:

Whatever the balance is due upon competion, period. That's in my contract that the GC signed. I shouldn't have to chase GC's down to get my money. :no:


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Brickie said:


> It depends on the terms of the contract. The way it works for me is this:
> 
> Whatever the balance is due upon competion, period. That's in my contract that the GC signed. I shouldn't have to chase GC's down to get my money. :no:



That's in my contract as well, but it's still my responsibility to submit a final bill if I want paid.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Well I'm not going to give out any checks without the paperwork. If you want the money you submit the invoice. Been that way for decades with all kinds of businesses. If you are dealing with HO's then that is a different story.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Leo G said:


> Well I'm not going to give out any checks without the paperwork. If you want the money you submit the invoice. Been that way for decades with all kinds of businesses. If you are dealing with HO's then that is a different story.


 
No, it's not a different story Leo. I'm not aware of any State or Federal Law allowing GC's to stiff subs for not turning in an invoice:whistling


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

isn't not turning in an invoice the same as not requesting to be paid? Now if the invoice was turned in lieu of a proposal before the GC accepted you to perform the work, then I would argue the 'invoice' has been submitted. The devil is in the details....


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Brickie said:


> No, it's not a different story Leo. I'm not aware of any State or Federal Law allowing GC's to stiff subs for not turning in an invoice:whistling


No law, but I'm betting 95% of companies will have that as a policy. The detail is in getting the proper paperwork submitted. :jester:


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

72chevy4x4 said:


> isn't not turning in an invoice the same as not requesting to be paid?


 
No, not all:


Say John Doe the GC needs a Gigantic Rumford fireplace built. He really liked the quote that Mad Mike's Masonry gave him. He signs the contract that Mad Mike submitted which states:

$10K downstroke due at signing of contract via certified check

$10K due upon completion via certified check

Nowhere in MMM's contract does it state that MMM will/shall provide ANY invoice to JD the GC.

So a couple of weeks later Mad Mike's Masonry completes the project which has passed all inspections & the HO's are just tickled to death with it.

John Doe the GC has however shut his office down & skipped out of town on vacation after receiving his big pay day. He "forgets" to pay Mad Mike's Masonry. 

2 months later John Doe comes back from his vacation & is just "shocked" to find out that the HO's were slapped with a "Notice of Intent to Hold Lien & a "Mechanics Lien" by Mad Mike's Masonry.

He finally decides to return one of Mad Mike's calls. JD the GC tells Mad Mike:

"It's your fault for me not paying you Mad Mike because you didn't submit an invoice to our office. It's our company policy. No invoice no pay. You also need to remove the lien on the HO's & deduct all the fees from your invoice to us"

*Mad Mike's response:*

*"Sorry Slim, but you're in breach of contract. *

*In addition, where in the State Of Indiana's Mechanic's Lien Statute does it state that a Sub can't file a lien because he didn't submit an invoice???" *


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I'm wondering now, how many GC's pay subs without a written invoice?

I would do it all the time. If we agreed on a price that's what I paid when they finished, if there was a schedule, I paid by the schedule. I didn't require an invoice though most (certainly not all) subs provided one. In my mind, that agreement is also the invoice, it provides an amount and unless there is a different schedule, payment is due upon completion. 

When the invoice was in error, I would call the sub, correct the invoice amount, and pay the corrected amount. Though this happened rarely, it was more often than not because the sub forgot to charge me for something that I owed for.

I always knew what bills were outstanding, who hadn't been paid. My framer would work out a price for the job after it was finished. That was fine with me, he would bill me fairly. There were times he was two or three houses behind in his billing. I would call him and set up a time that we could get together, work out a price, and I would write him a check on the spot. He just completed a job (pro-bono on my part for a non-profit), in which he screwed up and undercharged me by about 15%. I worked out the correct price and paid him correctly. I find it hard to believe a GC could "forget" about a sub.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Leo G said:


> No law, but I'm betting 95% of companies will have that as a policy. The detail is in getting the proper paperwork submitted. :jester:


Leo as you know, I love to mess with people:jester:

I couldn't help myself, especially when OP ripped on one of his subs. 

I'm not against invoices, I 'm against anyone stiffing people.

As one that uses subs almost on a daily basis, I'm quite familiar with the "paperwork shuffle" that's involved. In fact, in any of my company vehicles there's always an invoice book, a receipt book, fill in the blanks full & partial lien waivers, etc., "Just in Case" I have to instruct a sub to STFU, fill this out, sign here & here's your freakin check:laughing: I hate being owed money or owing anyone money

Re-read all of OP's posts.

The first job was from NOV. OP used him again on another project a couple of weeks ago.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

SC sawdaddy said:


> Some people are just sorry business men.
> Thats been two years ago and I have crossed paths with the individual several times and he has yet to produce a bill for the work. In fact he never mentioned the money again. It was less than $300 so I guess he just wrote it off as a stupid mistake but still...


And I think you treated him poorly. If he did the work as agreed, you need to pay him as agreed.

I once had an employee die in a motorcycle accident with me owning him a full week. He was single, no dependents, lived with his girlfriend. Clearly I owed him the money, but he was gone. I figured he'd want the money to go to his girlfriend, she was not an employee of mine. I just wrote the check to her in her name, for the gross amount of his pay and mailed it to her. Sure, I didn't have to, but it was the right thing to do.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

thom said:


> And I think you treated him poorly. If he did the work as agreed, you need to pay him as agreed.
> 
> I once had an employee die in a motorcycle accident with me owning him a full week. He was single, no dependents, lived with his girlfriend. Clearly I owed him the money, but he was gone. I figured he'd want the money to go to his girlfriend, she was not an employee of mine. I just wrote the check to her in her name, for the gross amount of his pay and mailed it to her. Sure, I didn't have to, but it was the right thing to do.


 

I agree with you Thom, it's always about doing the right thing!:thumbsup:


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## brendanstl (Jan 29, 2010)

Plain and simple... If he invoiced you and tried calling with documentation, you are screwed. If he forgot to invoice you and is now chasing money because of his own stupid business practices then stupid him. Whatever the case may be just pay the guy.


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

thom said:


> And I think you treated him poorly. If he did the work as agreed, you need to pay him as agreed.
> 
> I once had an employee die in a motorcycle accident with me owning him a full week. He was single, no dependents, lived with his girlfriend. Clearly I owed him the money, but he was gone. I figured he'd want the money to go to his girlfriend, she was not an employee of mine. I just wrote the check to her in her name, for the gross amount of his pay and mailed it to her. Sure, I didn't have to, but it was the right thing to do.


How do you figure I treated him badly? I told him to give me a bill. He failed to do so. I don't know how much hes got in a couple of flouresent lights and a switch. I'd be glad to pay him even two years later if he turns in the paperwork. I'm a contractor not a babysitter.


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

I commend you for giving your employee's GF his check. I'd probably have done the same thing.

Difference here is employee and sub.

I keep the time on an employee's labor and make sure that they get paid before mine comes out and sometimes its _instead_ of mine. 

If I call sub and say put me in two lights and send me the bill, six months go by and no bill I tell him again give me an invoice, and nothing...Thats just sloppy business IMO.


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## edwardbros (Sep 30, 2009)

Wow, It's funny how everyone jumps to the thought the sub wouldn't get paid.  Never said that. We got a hold of him and he came down and picked up his check. As far as just paying someone their original estimate I can see that, but what about change orders during the job? That's why we request a final invoice from every sub so there is no crying after they are paid.

Besides eveyone got way off the main topic on this post. The thing I was wondering was a way to help him see that we don't work on his scheduale. The solution we found is, find a new sub. Told them that when he picked up his check. 

NOw as far as being nice to a sub and doing the right thing we always try to do what we can. Hell, I've even allowed him to take an extra draw on two jobs, because he neeeded money.

It also depends what side of the ball your on, you can tell by peoples posts.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

SC sawdaddy said:


> How do you figure I treated him badly?


Doing the right thing is not that hard. You know you owe him his money. You refuse to pay him. You treated him badly, case closed!


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

edwardbros said:


> It also depends what side of the ball your on, you can tell by peoples posts.


Sometimes you can't. There are plenty of guys that are GC's on a project this week & a sub on a different project the next week.

Glad to read that things got finally straightened out there behind the cheddar curtain.:thumbsup:


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

Brickie said:


> Doing the right thing is not that hard. You know you owe him his money. *You refuse to pay him.* You treated him badly, case closed!


Better read my post again before you close the case Brickie.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

SC sawdaddy said:


> Better read my post again before you close the case Brickie.


There's nothing to re-read. You know you owe the man his money. You still haven't paid him long after the job is completed. You're just trying to "justify" in your mind pimping the man out of his money.


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

Brickie said:


> *SC, *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:no:


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

Thats what I been trying to tell you Hoosier.:laughing:


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## JKBARR127 (Jan 13, 2010)

i think u and the sub are both part right and both part wrong and while 3 rights make a left 2 wrongs dont make a right. while the sub is sloppy for not issuing an invoice there is no doubt u owe him money. he did file a lien and that may have been a little extreme. dont know the details or how he has percieved everything on his end. there is no question he did the work and its owed. what 3 4 500 bucks? While i understand no invoice no pay is ur policy is it really worth taking the chance of him telling the other subs in the area that u dont pay? hes bein an ass for not sending an invoice when you have asked but why not be the biger man and pay him his money and be done with it? if u dont know the true fianl payment next time he asks for it "mother fr"ask him how much sh-t heat and pay the guy. policies are policies but somtimes u gotta make acceptions. just a hypothetical if u were in a jam or needed somthing done and didnt have paper work would u ever have a sub work 4 u w just a hand shake and when work was complete pay the price agreed on without an invoice? 
pay the guy his money and call it pr itl be one less pile of bs u gota deal with.


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

JKBARR127 said:


> i think u and the sub are both part right and both part wrong and while 3 rights make a left 2 wrongs dont make a right. while the sub is sloppy for not issuing an invoice there is no doubt u owe him money. he did file a lien and that may have been a little extreme. dont know the details or how he has percieved everything on his end. there is no question he did the work and its owed. what 3 4 500 bucks? While i understand no invoice no pay is ur policy is it really worth taking the chance of him telling the other subs in the area that u dont pay? hes bein an ass for not sending an invoice when you have asked but why not be the biger man and pay him his money and be done with it? if u dont know the true fianl payment next time he asks for it "mother fr"ask him how much sh-t heat and pay the guy. policies are policies but somtimes u gotta make acceptions. just a hypothetical if u were in a jam or needed somthing done and didnt have paper work would u ever have a sub work 4 u w just a hand shake and when work was complete pay the price agreed on without an invoice?
> pay the guy his money and call it pr itl be one less pile of bs u gota deal with.


JABARR, I think your a little confused on the facts, and rightfully so with Brickie making them up as he goes along.

Let me get you straightened out and maybe you can explain it to him.

The OP had said his sub put a lien against a HO because he hadn't been paid due to not following proper procedure. (no invoice turned in)

I only stated that I have had a similar situation with a sub that had done some work and not turned in an invoice about 2 years ago and still hasn't. Nor has he been paid because I don't know how much to pay him.

I had asked him to put a couple of lights and a switch in a store room in a restaurant that I had remodeled. He did. I asked him to send and invoice. He did not. I have done business with this guy before and know his slack ways. which is why I don't call him anymore. He's a good sparkey. He's just got bad work ethics. Call him to a job says hes coming and never shows. Doesn't turn in invoices as mentioned, that kind of thing.

Any way I see this guy at the bar while me ant the Mrs. are out to dinner and I go talk to him. Now this is where I might have been unclear before. The whole MF/ Sh!thead thing was kinda...in jest. Yeah thats how we really talk to each other. I've known the dude about twenty years.Dated his cousin about ten years before that.
He knows I owe him for two lights, that I want an invoice when I pay him and that he could call me at any time of the day and most of the night to get his money if he just tells me what the amount is that I need to write the check for. 
All I'm saying is that its aggravating (somewhat) to have a sub not turn in their bills in an orderly fashion.


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## FowlOne (May 2, 2009)

Leo G said:


> If he doesn't give an invoice to get his money then he doesn't get his money. That's the way it works. I am not going to hunt you down to pay you. You need to be responsible enough to give an invoice. After all the work is done, you would think they would like to get paid.:blink:


Agree 100%, also on another note, there's a clause in my contracts that states any invoice received after 20 days of the project close out(final payment) will not be excepted. Not trying to screw anybody over, but cant imagine getting an invoice a month after a project has been done, not to mention 3.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

FowlOne said:


> Agree 100%, also on another note, there's a clause in my contracts that states any invoice received after 20 days of the project close out(final payment) will not be excepted. Not trying to screw anybody over, but cant imagine getting an invoice a month after a project has been done, not to mention 3.


 
Fowlone, The Indiana Mechanic's Lien Statute is quite clear & you will lose trying to pull that kind of nonsense


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## Framer53 (Feb 23, 2008)

FowlOne said:


> Agree 100%, also on another note, there's a clause in my contracts that states any invoice received after 20 days of the project close out(final payment) will not be excepted. Not trying to screw anybody over, but cant imagine getting an invoice a month after a project has been done, not to mention 3.


 
I bet you call and ask them for one don't you?:thumbsup:


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

SC sawdaddy said:


> JABARR, I think your a little confused on the facts, and rightfully so with Brickie making them up as he goes along.


The person that is confused is you SC because you continue to change your stories as the thread goes. But then again, it seems like you love making your own hell as they say:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

FowlOne said:


> will not be excepted.


It would be fun to watch a court try to deal with that clause. You might want to check a dictionary but the definition of excepted is to leave out or excluded. So, bills received after 20 days will not be excluded? What exactly is the point of that sentence. 

Or, did you mean accepted?


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

FowlOne said:


> Agree 100%, also on another note, there's a clause in my contracts that states any invoice received after 20 days of the project close out(final payment) will not be excepted. Not trying to screw anybody over, but cant imagine getting an invoice a month after a project has been done, not to mention 3.


Accepted is the word you are looking for.

I doubt your 20 day clause would hold up in court.


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## FowlOne (May 2, 2009)

Brickie said:


> Fowlone, The Indiana Mechanic's Lien Statute is quite clear & you will lose trying to pull that kind of nonsense


 
Never said I wasnt paying(ok maybe it sounded like it) but, it's amazing what a statement like that in bold letters does to motivate people to turn invoices in, in a timely fashion though. Contracts also say the subs and employees will wear hard hats at all times while on the construction site...doesnt mean it happens


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

Brickie said:


> The person that is confused is you SC because you continue to change your stories as the thread goes. But then again, it seems like you love making your own hell as they say:laughing::laughing::laughing:


No confusion here my friend. I'm not aware of any changes in my story either. I will agree with your one point though.



Brickie said:


> I may be a dumb A**


A wise man told me one time not to argue with dumb a$$e$. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.:whistling


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

When someone gives me a sub-contract, that is the deal. I refer to that contract when progress payments are due. I keep track on that document and in the end, the balance is due per that contract. I don't ask for additional paperwork or invoices or tell the guy to run around the block then jump through hoops and over hurdles or wait until I get paid.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

SC sawdaddy said:


> No confusion here my friend. I'm not aware of any changes in my story either. I will agree with your one point though.
> 
> A wise man told me one time not to argue with dumb a$$e$. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.:whistling


 
You may not be aware of it, but plenty of contractors that have read this thread are quite aware it.:laughing:


The other people that aware of your shoddy business practices are the people in you community. Word spreads like wildfire. 

The sub really embarrassed you in that bar/restaurant. All it took was for him to say:

"Where's my $250 that you owe me MF'er" 

That's game, set, match, you lose SC. 

The fact that it's now over 2+ years & you haven't made things right says a lot about you & the type of business that you run:thumbdown


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

Wow, What insight you have Brickie to know what was said in a bar a year and a half ago that was different from what I heard... and I was even _there_!

You must have been stiffed few times huh?:laughing: What happened GC wouldn't pay you?:no:


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## edwardbros (Sep 30, 2009)

:bangin::w00t: Sounds that way?


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

SC sawdaddy said:


> Wow, What insight you have Brickie to know what was said in a bar a year and a half ago that was different from what I heard... and I was even _there_!
> 
> You must have been stiffed few times huh?:laughing: What happened GC wouldn't pay you?:no:


Hey SC you can keep changing your stories all you want. 

I, along with others, have cleary pointed out:

*The guy asked for his money. You refuse to pay him the money that you owe him. You pimped him out of his money.*


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

edwardbros said:


> :bangin::w00t: Sounds that way?


 
Yes, Edwardbros, many years ago I, along with the other subs on a project, were pimped out of our money by a GC that went on "Vacation" and never came back.

So as a GC, I operate in the ways like Thom, Skyhook, Griz, etc., have mentioned in their posts. 

Unlike SC, I don't want to be known for pimping subs out of their money:no:


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