# flooring or cabinetry first



## coupe33 (Oct 12, 2008)

I have a new home to install true hardwood flooring in the kitchen dining area. I also will be setting the kitchen cabinets. I have asked a handful of people wich is better or the norm, to put in all the flooring and then come back and set the cabinets on top of it or set the cabinets and cut the flooring in around them. This is a first for me because I usually install flooring of this nature on a remodel or up grade and I have to cut in around every thing, unedrcut door jambs etc. I was thinking that putting in all the flooring would save me time and hassles. I would not have to put spacers under my base cabs to bring them up the thickness of the flooring, Would not have to put base shoe around every thing, and would save a ton of cut in time. what do the pros think. safe enough or bad idea?


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

Floor first.


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## naptown CR (Feb 20, 2009)

In my op if you are doing a natural finish sand and finish in place flooring,I would do the flooring first, sand , seal ,set cabinets, fiber disk and finish.
This makes it easier than sanding around cabinets with all the edging etc.
Prefinished is a slightly different story. If you are careful and protect the flooring as all the other stuff is going on it works out ok. If you have animals working in there maybe it would be better to wait. Wit exotic hardwoods I have always waited but built up cabinets for the thickness of the flooring.:thumbup:


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

Flooring first.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Flooring first. And you could go one step further. Put 3/4 ply under the cabinets instead of wasting flooring. 

You run into height problems when you put flooring in first.


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

Measure out to where the cabs. are going to sit. Snap a line. Run flooring past the line an inch or so. Set cabs on flooring. Shim under back and sides of cabs.


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## Static Design (Nov 30, 2008)

I always do floor first.


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

floor first is usually the best option. 
No base shoe usually needed
appliances fit nice
easier for the installer

only down side.....cabinet guys install on fresh new undamaged hardwood.
but there are ways to protect it.
Best to take a few pictures of the floor before they arrive and have the cab guys look at the floor too and agree to the condition.
then look at the floor before they leave to look for dents or scratches that are unacceptable
that way it eliminates the pissing match


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I always install the cabinets first. I use the universal anti-grav installation brackets and set them up for a 3/4" float. That way, when the flooring guy comes he can just slip the flooring right under the cabinets :w00t:

Floor first whenever possible. Unless you know it is the last kitchen the HO will ever install, put the entire floor down, don't cheat by skipping under the cabinets. Unless, the flooring is hard to come by with limited availability or really pricey. Do them a favor and lay the whole space.


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## JonM (Nov 1, 2007)

Cabinets first...if you ever want to change the floor or need to do a repair you will be glad you did...:thumbup:


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

JonM said:


> Cabinets first...if you ever want to change the floor or need to do a repair you will be glad you did...:thumbup:


I would not agree that repair is easier. a plank replace is a plank replace.
You do have a point that changing out later would be easier...however why would someone buy a product like wood with the intent to replace.....
in other words...you have a good point...but other points would overide that one. It shouldn't be the overiding factor in the decision.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Floor First BUT I'm not a fan of wood in the kitchen. Tile it.


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

Tile doesn't work for everyone.
works for water but not for the elderly or people who have leg problems.
Doesn't do too well for people with kids ready to learn to walk either....
But it is the best surface all around for durability and moisture issues
no doubt about that


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## Longghairr (May 10, 2009)

coupe33 said:


> I have a new home to install true hardwood flooring in the kitchen dining area. I also will be setting the kitchen cabinets. I have asked a handful of people wich is better or the norm, to put in all the flooring and then come back and set the cabinets on top of it or set the cabinets and cut the flooring in around them. This is a first for me because I usually install flooring of this nature on a remodel or up grade and I have to cut in around every thing, unedrcut door jambs etc. I was thinking that putting in all the flooring would save me time and hassles. I would not have to put spacers under my base cabs to bring them up the thickness of the flooring, Would not have to put base shoe around every thing, and would save a ton of cut in time. what do the pros think. safe enough or bad idea?


My years in the trade tell me that cabinets need to be level. Is the floor level??? Shoe mould only handles 1/2". Do you still have something to attach to??? Just my opinion. Cabinets first, then flooring. If you were installing a stone floor, then you know the floor is level, then cabinets after the fact. Wood flooring has never been installed in a level fashion. Those days are gone!!!


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

If it's a floating floor, then it's a non issue....cabs first. Unless you are mounting the cabs to the walls.
But a nail down floor still needs it to be level...and flat mostly.
I don't belive I have seen a floor that is unacceptable for cab install but fine for nail down wood.


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

coupe33 said:


> I have a new home to install true hardwood flooring in the kitchen dining area. I also will be setting the kitchen cabinets. I have asked a handful of people wich is better or the norm, to put in all the flooring and then come back and set the cabinets on top of it or set the cabinets and cut the flooring in around them. This is a first for me because I usually install flooring of this nature on a remodel or up grade and I have to cut in around every thing, unedrcut door jambs etc. I was thinking that putting in all the flooring would save me time and hassles. I would not have to put spacers under my base cabs to bring them up the thickness of the flooring, Would not have to put base shoe around every thing, and would save a ton of cut in time. what do the pros think. safe enough or bad idea?


 Man, this thread is getting nuts ! It's a new home ! Floors should be level !
True hardwood floors ! And some of you guys are saying do it this way so remodeling will be easier ?  Yeah, I can hear the realtor now saying they did it this way so you can tear up that 5k or whatever floor so you can have something different down the road.  Lets get real here. .....................geeeeeez............


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

This is really standard for this type of question.
10 years and I see the same answers...
10 years from now we will see the same answers....

such is life....


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

I prefer flooring first, that being said, you will have less than perfect floors for a variety of reasons. I have rarely seen a perfectly level foundation, or perfectly milled lumber, or floor joists that stabilize at the same dimension. Decking has a tendancy to washboard between joists, even when spaced properly if it sees enough inclement weather. Lumber changes with humidity, so if it's perfectly level today, it may not be down the road. Crowning in boards will vary also. Even engineered lumber will deflect at different rates according to loading, thats why I do X bridging no matter what. Point loads will compress decking and blocking unless it is isolated from the floor as in a steel column. Center girders will shrink in dimension unless engineered lumber or steel is used.

The point I'm making is, you have to deal with all the curves that are thrown at you. If the floor going down is being site finished I would install it first to limit the obvious risk to cabinets. If prefinished is going down, I may want to install cabinets first. Asess the risks, make a calculated decision and move forward. It's been done both ways and niether is right or wrong.:thumbsup:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

JonM said:


> Cabinets first...if you ever want to change the floor or need to do a repair you will be glad you did...:thumbup:


 What if you want to keep the floor and change the cabinet layout?:thumbsup:


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## strathd (Jan 12, 2009)

loneframer said:


> What if you want to keep the floor and change the cabinet layout?:thumbsup:


Good one.......:clap::thumbsup::w00t::blink::shutup:............:smile:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

There is no such thing as a flat true floor. Never has been and never will. Well, maybe in an experimental lab, but in a residence - ain't gonna happen. You need to deal with the flow and shim and/or scribe your cabinetry according to the cards you were dealt.


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## orson (Nov 23, 2007)

*!*



Leo G said:


> I always install the cabinets first. I use the universal anti-grav installation brackets and set them up for a 3/4" float. That way, when the flooring guy comes he can just slip the flooring right under the cabinets :w00t:


Leo I started reading this and actually bought it for 5 seconds before I realized you were kidding. You got me!! :clap:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I was hoping I would get a laugh or two outta that.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

Floor first... and then scribe all your cabinets to the floor you lazy bastards... :w00t:

(and I've seen a GREAT many 'new' houses with floors up and down and all over the place.)


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## Cache (Sep 18, 2007)

Even if you have the anti-grav brackets (LOL) flooring first, then cabs. This is new construction we are talking about, so the floor should be level enough. I've never seen a new const. floor that is wavy enough to bother the cabs. Unless the cab guys completely forgot how to scribe the toe kick.

Even in an old rehab you'll want to do floor first and if the subfloor is really non-level, then try to rectify the situation before/during the flooring install. Even if the floor is really out of whack, the cab installers should level the cabs, which for me usually means levelling from the high spot. In a long run I guess it is possible that we are talking more than 1/2" that a shoe mold would handle. 

In the end, always floor first. It looks nicer. Kinda the same as undercutting the door jambs for tile. It looks much more professional, and the added bonus is that the install of both cabs and floor is faster that way.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Can't put shoe molding on these cabs


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## Cache (Sep 18, 2007)

Most of mine are like that actually, some with furniture feet. Scribes for those of course.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Floor first. 

A kitchen is going to be wet from spills, etc. At some point something major is going to happen (faucet/connection/valve, drain, icemaker, dishwasher, InstaHot....). 

If the cabs are below floor level they will be sitting in a well of water that cannot be reached. Even solid hardwood cabs are going to swell under this condition and particleboard is completely gone.


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

Had an inspection of a buckled wood floor. The cabinets were set on the wood floor.

One of a kind stone slab tops.

Broke the tops on two counters across from each other, and the center island, and jacking the custom cabinets, where they were firewood.

Couple of hundred floor repair, turned into a $50,000 mistake.


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## JonM (Nov 1, 2007)

loneframer said:


> What if you want to keep the floor and change the cabinet layout?:thumbsup:



Your wife will make you change the floor also...:laughing:


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## [email protected] (Apr 3, 2009)

from a flooring view point i would put the floor down first, if i was a kitchen fitter i would say put the cabs in first,

However i have seen jobs with cabs in first and then they have problems getting dishwashers in under the worktop due to the step that is caused by the height of the floor finished at the foot of the cabs, also i have seen jobs where the cabs & machines where in first and once the floor was fitted the machines could not be pulled out without taking the worktop off,

'what comes first, the chicken or the egg'


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> from a flooring view point i would put the floor down first, if i was a kitchen fitter i would say put the cabs in first,
> 
> However i have seen jobs with cabs in first and then they have problems getting dishwashers in under the worktop due to the step that is caused by the height of the floor finished at the foot of the cabs, also i have seen jobs where the cabs & machines where in first and once the floor was fitted the machines could not be pulled out without taking the worktop off,
> 
> 'what comes first, the chicken or the egg'


What you describe is just bad planning. If the cabinets go in first--you cleat and level them to the height of the finished floor and run your flooring under the appliances.

A poor craftsman is going to make a soup sandwich of it either way.


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## [email protected] (Apr 3, 2009)

as i said, i have seen jobs like this, not done them myself,

The temp rental i am in at the moment has laminate fitted, we tried to pull the dishwaher out to get to the supply behind, could not tilt it back enough to get the machine out over the edge of the laminate,

my guess is they got what they paid for when it was installed, doh


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

JonM said:


> Your wife will make you change the floor also...:laughing:


 That's when you keep the floor and the cabinets and *dispose of the wife.:thumbup:*


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## mrwoodman (Feb 4, 2009)

A lot of good replies on this issue other than the tile guy :laughing: and the plywood under the cabs. Doing the plywood only increases the odds of "NO EXPANSION" if installing the woodfloor to close and I have some other issues with that too. There's my 2cents.

Ron T


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## user3321 (May 28, 2009)

Flooring first always. If the customer ever decides to change the layout of the kitchen, they won't have to change the flooring if they don't want to.


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## BKM Resilient (May 2, 2009)

Leo G said:


> There is no such thing as a flat true floor. Never has been and never will. Well, maybe in an experimental lab, but in a residence - ain't gonna happen. You need to deal with the flow and shim and/or scribe your cabinetry according to the cards you were dealt.


****************************************
My grandfather's home was I-beam construction. State of the art in the Pittsburgh area when that was still one of the world's booming economies. You never saw floors, doors and windows so flat, level and plumb in your life. The foundation work is awesome and the total square footage is well over 5000 square feet but that includes a large 1/2 unfinished basement. The local builder built the home for his own family with a custom designer----- all the best materials using all his top men . The house is well over 50 years old and every door and window open and close perfectly true as if the work were just completed yesterday. 

IT CAN BE DONE!!!!!


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

There is no such thing as a flat, true floor, no sheetrock wall is perfectly flat. Real close with strict attention and steel studs, sure. Perfect, nope.

So when the cabinetry was put in the house, not one shim was used?


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## skymaster (Oct 23, 2006)

floor,floor floor; If not then you will have a nightmare with the dishwasher and any other under the counter appliances.


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

> Flooring first always. If the customer ever decides to change the layout of the kitchen, they won't have to change the flooring if they don't want to.


there are plenty of good reasons to install floor first.
this is not one of them.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*complete remodeling- tear out/ or new construction*

My vote- FLOORS FIRST. I can see "having" to go around cabinets if they are staying - you have no choice. If I were a customer and this is a new job I personally would wonder why the entire floor was not being done. Doesn't make any sense not to. Some guys like putting them in after - to each his/her own opinion -but when the dishwasher is going to be replaced, try removing a dishwasher with 3/4 flooring application around cabinets- and there is a granite top~something is going to get damaged, more often the flooring, or worse- the counter top. I have had to deal with this more than I would like to and there was no reason for this situation if it had though out properly to begin with- there is no reason to skimp on materials - do the proper work and protect the flooring - 3mill plastic/cardboard from the cabinets , 1/4" Luann - I don't think you will have any problems preventing damage to the floor. In my opinion the job runs a lot smoother and appliances can be pulled with out any problems , cabinets could be replace and updated with no problem- just my opinion. Everyone has there own opinion but there are some situations that you have to take into account.


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

Depends which one I am installing, the floor or the kitchen ... 

I want to be first in and paid while the owner still has cash.


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## RhodesHardwood (Jun 28, 2010)

flooring


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Floor always goes in first unless its a Linoleum floor, then underpayment is first and linoleum after the kitchen is installed.

Here is a perfect example why the floor first. I was in a new house a while back built about 3 years ago. The kitchen was installed first. The tiles after. They had a problem with a dishwasher,and the tile was raised about 1"... they couldn't get the dishwasher out to make the repairs. Therefor, get the tile up or take the Granite off to get the dishwasher out :whistling


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

greg24k said:


> Floor always goes in first unless its a Linoleum floor, then *underpayment* is first and linoleum after the kitchen is installed.


If you underpay first you may never get either one!

I know, just a typo, couldn't resist though.:laughing:


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## ParagonFloors (Sep 27, 2010)

Hardwood Should be last. besides base and shoe


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

I prefer the wood flooring first and the cabinet rest on it. Personally do not like shoemold etc around cabinets. In some cases, I ask the cabinet maker supply small doorstop type trimming to match the cabinets if necessary.
But when I do the solid wood flooring around an existing cabinets, or when I see the cabinets already installed,I run a board in front of the dishwasher, (perpendicular or parallel) as same length of the dishwasher opening and install that board with beads of carpenter glue. A small piece of scrap attached with brad nails behind this board holds in place.In these cases if the dishwasher brakes, the board can be removed easily and dishwasher can be taken out.


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## RhodesHardwood (Jun 28, 2010)

Flooring


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## covaltleveling (Aug 13, 2010)

I would say set and shim the cabinets level first, then if needed floor leveling compound may be applied prior to finish hardwood floor installation. Many times the existing sub floor is not level and will need floor leveling.

Good luck!


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