# Help With My First Framing Job (By myself)



## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

Hey. Now I know this is usually frowned upon around here but I need the help so I am just going to go ahead anyway. My name is Matt, I am almost 18 and I have been framing for about 2 years now, sometimes as a wall-banger sometimes as a boss. Recently I was approached and someone asked me to frame their 2000 sq. ft. bungalow, all i had to do was give them a quote. Now heres the problem, Ive never had to quote an entire house before. Yeah. So I am asking you guys to give me a few tips and maybe explain to me a good system to use because I know this wont be the last house I will have to quote if everything goes well. Thanks.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Dont forget to factor in all those hidden costs of doing business.:whistling



Oh, you are in Canada. Maybe give Homes a call.




Just think about doing it, how you did it, all that stuff.

As my mom used to say, use your noodle.


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## dprimc (Mar 13, 2009)

Are you quoting labor and materials or just labor? 

If you are quoting materials, I'd find a good local lumber yard that will do an acurate lumber take off for you before anything else.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*Fullframer.....*

I am going to be totally blunt with you... you need to ask your local contractors or talk with your building inspector ... pricing is NOT permitted here. I understand your dilemma.. but you really should talk to your local contractors - every Joe blow comes on here and starts that PRICING question - I don't think this type of question is going to go over to well here..and I hope you understand why.... talk to the local cont. .. building inspector,,, that will give you a much better idea of what to charge and getting acquainted with the permit process and so much more:thumbsup:. 

Brian


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

wow-17 years old and your thinking of taking on the framing of a 2000sqft house-good luck 'kid' :thumbsup:

make a list of the steps involved including the very smallest of items-make it in outline form if you like. associate an estimated time to get those items completed and then add up all the times and multiply by your hourly rate. whatever time you come up with consider adding another 50%-100% to cover 'issues'.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Matt, you're in over your head. I know guys with 5-10 years of experience who would have a hard time figuring that up. Your best bet might be if you know an older guy who's been at it a while, and work with him on it.

You might make less money, but you'd probably stand a lot less chance of losing your butt.


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

abc


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Materials+Labor+Profit and Overhead=quoted price. If you are not able to calculate any of those numbers, then you may be in over your head. 

For materials there are no shortcuts other than ones you have developed over time for yourself. You have to figure exactly how much of everything you need (plus waste), how much you will have to spend on tools and consumables (and I don't mean beer), and allow for the fact that you are going to miss something.

Labor is even harder to figure for someone just starting, so you better add a lot of slop there, too.

Profit and Overhead is pretty easy. All of your expenses for the year divided by available work hours is one way to figure overhead to use for bidding. Profit is simple: make it large enough to cover all your mistakes in the other parts of the bid.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

my first tip is to find out a little background info on who your bidding on this job for. i learned that the guys looking towards crews who are just starting out will lowball you as much as possible so they can save money, i know too many guys that went bankrupt because of situations such as this.

figure out you hourly wages and all your overhead then put the actual price on it, clearly state all change orders are extra and you arent responsible for supplying material unless you are payed with the cashflow up front. it wouldnt hurt to have one of the estimators at another lumberyard figure out the material needed if your too busy to do it yourself, this way you can make sure everything you need will be on site


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Matt, you're in over your head. I know guys with 5-10 years of experience who would have a hard time figuring that up. Your best bet might be if you know an older guy who's been at it a while, and work with him on it.
> 
> You might make less money, but you'd probably stand a lot less chance of losing your butt.


Hey Young Man, PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO TIN'S WORDS. Seems maybe your ego has got control of you. How you could be the "boss" of anything, maybe a bunch of 12 yr olds, at 18 doesn't compute. Since you are asking these kind of questions you are way over your head.


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

72chevy4x4 said:


> wow-17 years old and your thinking of taking on the framing of a 2000sqft house-good luck 'kid' :thumbsup:


I've run framing sites before but theyve never actually been for myself, so I figured i would give it a shot, it can't be that bad.

And thanks to the rest of you, pretty much what I thought.

And for the guy that said work with another guy that has more experience... I'm trying to break away from that and prove that I can do this and be successful at a young age, I dont consider myself a typical teenager.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

You can do it Matt. 5 bucks a S.F.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*MAtt...*

Not trying to discourage you from your dreams... we have a 14 year old on here that is.. well.. very ambitious and I think you need to talk to some people that are in the business to get a better understanding of what is involved... I say-- knock your socks off.. but you can are not even of LEGAL age.. 
Work up until then with someone experienced.. you seem to think your 40 foot ladder has only 2 rungs on it,,, there is a reason for the small steps to get to the top  
Brian


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

griz said:


> Hey Young Man, PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO TIN'S WORDS. Seems maybe your ego has got control of you. How you could be the "boss" of anything, maybe a bunch of 12 yr olds, at 18 doesn't compute. Since you are asking these kind of questions you are way over your head.


If you know anything about the area where I live, chain saws are considered miter saws and tape measures are optional. As for me being 18 and being the boss on occasion: I have proven in my work that I am capable, and I have been told that im not making that up, if you got a problem with that feel free to call my boss and explain to him how its absolutely unacceptable for me to be in charge. and no we dont run a crew of 12 year olds, usually a few laborers. And Im just trying to learn theres no need to try to put me down, i just want to learn and try


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

FullerFramer said:


> And for the guy that said work with another guy that has more experience... I'm trying to break away from that and prove that I can do this and be successful at a young age, I dont consider myself a typical teenager.


Understood, and I hope you didn't take my comment as being pointed at your age. Age, and to a certain extent intelligence, has nothing to do with it--it's _experience_ that matters.

I would give the same advice to a 60 year old friend I respect and admire. :thumbsup:


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

PrestigeR&D said:


> Not trying to discourage you from your dreams... we have a 14 year old on here that is.. well.. very ambitious and I think you need to talk to some people that are in the business to get a better understanding of what is involved... I say-- knock your socks off.. but you can are not even of LEGAL age..
> Work up until then with someone experienced.. you seem to think your 40 foot ladder has only 2 rungs on it,,, there is a reason for the small steps to get to the top
> Brian


If you take 2 steps at a time, while its dangerous, you'll get up there faster :whistling


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Yeah, and when you fall off and break your back, you are screwed for the rest of your life.


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

Tscarborough said:


> Yeah, and when you fall off and break your back, you are screwed for the rest of your life.


True, but I am just to curious


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Yeah, I was 18 once and have an 18 year old kid. I made pisspoor choices at that age (but worked my ass off still), and so does my kid. Take a pass on this one or bring in some experience to help you.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

FullerFramer said:


> ...chain saws are considered miter saws and tape measures are optional. theres no need to try to put me down, i just want to learn and try


Well if that is the standard, quality & tolerances that is expected of you maybe at 18 yrs old you can run a crew. Was not trying to put you down. Just that most other places in the real world you are not qualified to run the clean up crew. Wanting to learn is admirable. Just don't lose your butt in the process. Since you are not a contractor, do you have any legal recourse if the owner/GC tells you to take a flying F**K when you ask to be paid?


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

its pretty simple Matt. at your age you should not be expected to "quote" a price. Anyone asking you to do so is probably leaning towards and hoping that you'll underbid. That being said, if you've got skills, then give them an hourly rate that works for both of you. IF you get the job on an hourly basis then make sure you work up a bid on your own so that you can see what WOULD have happened had you bid it, good luck
P.S the most important part is even though your working hourly, you have to plan and perform like you bid the job in order to truly understand where you are in the game


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

At 18 can you even get a license and insurance?


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

griz said:


> Well if that is the standard, quality & tolerances that is expected of you maybe at 18 yrs old you can run a crew. Was not trying to put you down. Just that most other places in the real world you are not qualified to run the clean up crew. Wanting to learn is admirable. Just don't lose your butt in the process. Since you are not a contractor, do you have any legal recourse if the owner/GC tells you to take a flying F**K when you ask to be paid?


You misunderstood what I meant. The reason I am able to run a crew is because I keep things tight and accurate, whereas others who should be my "boss" run the chainsaws and do sloppy work, my framing is standard, but looks good compared to sloppy work of course. And you answered your own question about legal action. And go ***** yourself with the cleanup crew s*it, theres no need for that..


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

parkers5150 said:


> its pretty simple Matt. at your age you should not be expected to "quote" a price. Anyone asking you to do so is probably leaning towards and hoping that you'll underbid. That being said, if you've got skills, then give them an hourly rate that works for both of you. IF you get the job on an hourly basis then make sure you work up a bid on your own so that you can see what WOULD have happened had you bid it, good luck
> P.S the most important part is even though your working hourly, you have to plan and perform like you bid the job in order to truly understand where you are in the game


very good advice and definetly safer for someone like me. thank you


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

JumboJack said:


> At 18 can you even get a license and insurance?


Yes you can have license at 18, but you wouldve had to have worked 7200 hours in 2 years, so not really possible. And I have not looked into insurance yet. None of the guys running around here are licensed and not many insured.


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

How much do you think that bid should be?There is no way for a guy on the intertube to tell what it is .2000 square foot doesn't tell me enough to throw a number out there. Does the dude you are working for now know about this?Cause if it were me, you prolly wouldn't have a job tomorrow.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*why do I get the funny feeling...*

this thread is going to get closed... :whistling
Brian


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## knucklehead (Mar 2, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> this thread is going to get closed... :whistling
> Brian


me too. I had to get my 2 cents in


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> this thread is going to get closed... :whistling
> Brian


 It might rabbit, it might


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

knucklehead said:


> How much do you think that bid should be?There is no way for a guy on the intertube to tell what it is .2000 square foot doesn't tell me enough to throw a number out there. Does the dude you are working for now know about this?Cause if it were me, you prolly wouldn't have a job tomorrow.


I work for a company now, and the owner/boss allows us to have side jobs, it is very common here.


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

PrestigeR&D said:


> this thread is going to get closed... :whistling
> Brian


I don't have problem with that, I have come here for what I needed and expected. Thank you all.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Do you live on the planet Earth? Or is this an ET troll?


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## rotarex (Mar 31, 2008)

charge em by the hour for now, mark down your hrs every time, minus your lunch your best way to start, after that one job you will see so much more to figure out, learning business is a whole new trade, and thats the part that can make or break.
\
insurance is $900 for 1Mill or $1300 for 2M


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

FullerFramer said:


> Yes you can have license at 18, but you wouldve had to have worked 7200 hours in 2 years, so not really possible. And I have not looked into insurance yet. *None of the guys running around here are licensed and not many insured.*


Excuse me?


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

griz said:


> Do you live on the planet Earth? Or is this an ET troll?


Umm really funny joke there buddy. Of everyone here you were the only ******* to me, and I have no idea why, I came here for help and got it, but you still have a problem with it? anyway i understand what your trying to say so enough already. thanks.


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## rotarex (Mar 31, 2008)

see alot of the americans dont know this.

But you dont need a licenses to own a company here
as long as you got a GST number paying taxes thats all that matters and $60 for a business registration and your a soul proprietor 

in order to do a job like hes doing all he needs is a building permit drawn up by him self and signed off by the homeowner and checked off by the city if done properly and then permit or get a Architect to do one and get a permit.

if he screws up the project the inspector will see it and tell him do it over


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

JumboJack said:


> Excuse me?


Yes you read that right, most of the guys working as carpenters here are not licensed, the only guys that are licensed are the guys in the local union, which i will become a part of.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

FullerFramer said:


> Umm really funny joke there buddy. Of everyone here you were the only ******* to me, and I have no idea why, I came here for help and got it, but you still have a problem with it? anyway i understand what your trying to say so enough already. thanks.


If you think I'm an ******* here, try working for me. Oh, but with your attitude you wouldn't make it to first coffee break. You need a dose of reality kid.


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

rotarex said:


> see alot of the americans dont know this.
> 
> But you dont need a licenses to own a company here
> as long as you got a GST number paying taxes thats all that matters and $60 for a business registration and your a soul proprietor
> ...


Thanks for helping me out


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## rotarex (Mar 31, 2008)

FullerFramer said:


> Thanks for helping me out


see down there if you dont drive around with your # on your vehicle your in for trouble, here its only for electrical, plumbing and HVAC 

you gotta excuse some of these guys they thinking differently


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

griz said:


> If you think I'm an ******* here, try working for me. Oh, but with your attitude you wouldn't make it to first coffee break. You need a dose of reality kid.


I would love to work with you, so i could prove you wrong and you would see. And maybe I need a dose of reality, maybe I am over-confident in my abilities, but at this point i dont believe so.


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

I think you are in over your head, but if you really want to do it, you better make sure you can get help. you can't frame that by yourself and make any kind of real money.
look over those plans until you are blue in the face and then wait and look over them again, figure all the material and waste also. If you lose your Ass at least you are young enough to recover. I wouldn't have tried that at 18 but go for it if you really think you can do it. Definitely don't build this alone though. get at least 1 or 2 helpers minimum


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

griz said:


> If you think I'm an ******* here, try working for me. Oh, but with your attitude you wouldn't make it to first coffee break. You need a dose of reality kid.


Man,most guy's wait till they get at least 100 posts till they call you an ******* griz...:laughing:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

JumboJack said:


> Man most guy's wait till they get at least 100 posts till they call yo an ******* griz...:laughing:


 Yeah, usually takes that long to get to know him.:w00t::laughing:

JK Griz, had to sieze the opportunity.:thumbsup:


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

How about insurance? 
Here, there, wherever...You have one of your employees do a dirt dive and break his neck, who pays his medical bills and mortgage the rest of his life?


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Can someone send me the cliff notes when this is over.


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

ApgarNJ said:


> I think you are in over your head, but if you really want to do it, you better make sure you can get help. you can't frame that by yourself and make any kind of real money.
> look over those plans until you are blue in the face and then wait and look over them again, figure all the material and waste also. If you lose your Ass at least you are young enough to recover. I wouldn't have tried that at 18 but go for it if you really think you can do it. Definitely don't build this alone though. get at least 1 or 2 helpers minimum


Yes i am aware its not possible by myself, I will get 2 laborers with me. I have decided that I will look over the plans, see if they are interested in an hourly wage, and go from there. I also work with another guy who has 25 years exp. and hes good to ask if I have questions.


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

FullerFramer said:


> Yes i am aware its not possible by myself, I will get 2 laborers with me. I have decided that I will look over the plans, see if they are interested in an hourly wage, and go from there. I also work with another guy who has 25 years exp. and hes good to ask if I have questions.


So how much does he think you need to charge? :whistling


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*I'll see what I can do...*



WarnerConstInc. said:


> Can someone send me the cliff notes when this is over.


Warner... 


Cliff notes to this... I would rather watch paint dry..
Brian


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> Warner...
> 
> 
> Cliff notes to this... I would rather watch paint dry..
> Brian


 or make a couple thousand tiny cedar shakes with a bandsaw.:laughing:


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

SC sawdaddy said:


> How about insurance?
> Here, there, wherever...You have one of your employees do a dirt dive and break his neck, who pays his medical bills and mortgage the rest of his life?


And why is Mike Holmes always yapping about unlicensed contractors?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

I was in for the entertainment value.
But, the paint is dry.:clap:


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

SC sawdaddy said:


> So how much does he think you need to charge? :whistling


Per hour?



JumboJack said:


> And why is Mike Holmes always yapping about unlicensed contractors?


Honestly there are very few licensed contractors in my area, but yet I see the same quality work in houses around here that some people have put up on this site. basically what im saying is anyone in ontario can get a license with more than 7200 hours experience, but they havent, so theres not much difference.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Matt, the best advice I can give you is work with someone experienced, and try and be the best worker on the crew. If new work comes through you, ask for a referral bonus. I'm assuming you still live at home with very little expenses. Stay in school, get a business degree and gain valuable knowledge along the way. 

Try to make the most money with the least amount of effort.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

griz said:


> I was in for the entertainment value.
> But, the paint is dry.:clap:


Go ahead and put on another coat Griz. You left a couple of holidays there.:whistling


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Wow, this got out of hand quick. 

Apparently there is only enough room here for one 'kid' with ambition.

Fuller, while you may have the skill set to pull this job off, I doubt you have the resources. Insurance is not a joke, neither is a guy hurting himself while on your job. Something happens, and either one of these things will have you flipping burgers till you're 40 to pay off the settlements. Seriously.

I understand there is no 'contractor license' per se, but there _is_ WCB, GST, Liability, business license etc. Get those in order before you try being a contractor. Otherwise you are just a punk hack ripping off the homeowner and any legitimate contractor who may have done the job.

Laying off of the **** yous to the proven guys here may also help you get some real help.:thumbsup:


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

FullerFramer said:


> If you know anything about the area where I live, chain saws are considered miter saws and tape measures are optional.





FullerFramer said:


> Per hour?
> Are you bidding the job on an hourly basis?
> 
> 
> ...


:blink:


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

way to beat up on the 17 year old guys!!!!


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## William James (Mar 5, 2010)

You seem ambitious, and you got some fire up your azz!
It doesn't hurt trying, as long as it doesn't end in a lawsuit. 

There's a huge benefit working for someone else. for the most part, you're not responsible for anything. The owner of the company is or her insurance. When the laborers don't show up cuz they got sloppy drunk, he's the one that has to worry about making deadlines. 

It seems like a great opportunity for you to prove to yourself and others how capable you are. But you're still newer to the trade. If you rush yourself into this, you might miss the small details that will matter so much. 

Keep your head on your shoulders and think long-term and you'll be fine. :thumbsup:


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

parkers5150 said:


> way to beat up on the 17 year old guys!!!!


Kind of to be expected walking into a room full of contractors and telling them they are sh*t.


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

is that how it went?


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

the way see it, the KID(1) introduced himself (2) showed that he had done some reading here before posting his ? (3) showed thick skin (4) listened to reason (5) is not a home owner..................................... how much more do you really need to let someone in "the club"?????????


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

I watched this from the sidelines, but I noticed a distinct lack of respect when the kid got some criticism. And it was mild compared to what he is going to run into out in the real world of construction.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

parkers5150 said:


> the way see it, the KID(1) introduced himself (2) showed that he had done some reading here before posting his ? (3) showed thick skin (4) listened to reason (5) is not a home owner..................................... how much more do you really need to let someone in "the club"?????????


You are right, he did do all those things.

He also intends to build this house with no insurance, no WCB for his 2 'helpers', no intention of filing the required tax forms and no business license in his town.

Yea, we should all just tell him to go for it.:thumbup:


It's not a shed he is building.


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

happens every day in every city. some kids steal, some do drugs others watch TV all day... blah blah blah let's try looking at the glass half full shall we?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Parkers, did you see anyone giving him bad advice?


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

parkers5150 said:


> happens every day in every city. some kids steal, some do drugs others watch TV all day... blah blah blah let's try looking at the glass half full shall we?


Great, just look the other way, won't hurt me. Perfect attitude.

Or we could beat his ass until he figures out the right thing to do.:thumbsup:

He came asking for help... we are giving him more help than he even knows.

More than you know too, apparently.


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

fact of the matter is, it's the guys with guts ambition and confidence that eventually over time get it. When they get it they do it right. it's the unambitious fly by nights that will never get it, and even if they do they will always cut corners.


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

Shane I'm not looking the other way. in fact i gave the KID some reasonable advise. some on the other hand are trying to stuff a Ferrari motor into a 72' pinto.
wagon that is


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

It cracks me up.There is always someone that thinks it's their job to stick up for the person that sees no need for silly things like license's,insurance,WC.And in this case experience.

When someone comes here and asks for advice and then get's pretty much an unanimous opinion that they don't want to hear they get all pissy....Happens all the time.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

And disrespect usually get your ass kicked.

We are all just trying to steer him in the right direction with his career choice.

I agree he has tons of guts and ambition, and could probably do really well in construction. Just want to see him start on the right foot.:thumbsup:


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

Tins i never said anyone gave him bad advise nor did i intend to imply that


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

parkers5150 said:


> fact of the matter is, it's the guys with guts ambition and confidence that eventually over time get it.


Fact of the matter is, I know a guy with guts ambition and confidence who owes me money, owes money to landlords and other creditors in three states, and plays devout misunderstood Job at church in order to scrape up enough money to pay his utility bills when they're getting ready to cut them off.

He's 38 and still hasn't gotten it.


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

we all know that guy:thumbsup:


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## Scribbles (Mar 10, 2009)

A HO that hires a 17year old to frame there house deserved the house they get, charge 45k and have a ball kid!


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

i'm done:notworthy


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

parkers5150 said:


> is that how it went?


I was actually rooting for him right up to the time he told Griz to go **** himself.:shutup:

A 17 y/o framing crew boss is going to have a hard time running a crew if he doesn't learn show a little respect for the guys he asks for help.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Dang it I got here late.

My two cents:

When I was 19 I ran a framing job from time to time, a real easy frame anyways. That being said, there is no way I would have been able to frame a full house, per bid, pay employees, do the books, do the taxes, get proper insurance etc. Not to mention back then it was way easier than it is now. This kid needs a serious dose of reality. No hardworking, tax paying, insurance abiding, licensed, 20 year, expert contractor is going to give him the time of day with this unreasonable request.


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

shanekw1 said:


> Wow, this got out of hand quick.
> 
> Apparently there is only enough room here for one 'kid' with ambition.


Nah, I hate all kids equally.:laughing:


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## kyle_dmr (Mar 17, 2009)

Fuler, PM me.
Kyle


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

framerman said:


> This thread should be stickied.


Wow! Back when the expletives started flying it was on the verge of being closed. Now we are talking about it becoming a sticky? And it started out as a pricing thread!:laughing:


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## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

Welcome to the Forum of Experienced Contractors.
I would like to address your original request. Tips on giving a quote.

First off, everyone here has his/her own methods. So this is just one suggestion.
Take it or leave it.

Take a pad of paper and start with, let's say, 10 phases of framing this 2000 sf bungalow. from start to finish. 

1.) 1st floor deck
2.) Exterior wall framing
3.) Interior wall framing
ETC

Under each of the phases, imagine building each piece and put a 1/2 day - full day allotment to that. Be as detailed as you can....and I mean detailed.
Lumber runs, cleanup, setup, meetings with subs & HO..everything you can think of from start to absolute finish.

This will give you your time frame/schedule.
This should help as a spec sheet so you can agree with the HO as to what is included and what is not. i.e You're framing doesn't include interior trim.

The cost is up to you to determine. Your helpers will have their "going rate" per hour and you will have yours. add & multiply then add for Insurance & a markup.

Keep a daily log. At the end you'll be able to see how you did.
I bet you'll be adding a few more categories and details to your next list.

Please post progress pictures and let us know if we can help with anything.

Go get 'em. Us old guys are watching.:w00t: :thumbsup: :w00t:


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

mudpad said:


> Wow! Back when the expletives started flying it was on the verge of being closed. Now we are talking about it becoming a sticky? And it started out as a pricing thread!:laughing:


But it's so chock full of information :laughing:

I saw it this morning and thought about closing it but since a few other mods were in here discussing and also so far no reported posts, I figured let the OP sleep in the bed that he made. The sticky comment was just a joke.


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## kyle_dmr (Mar 17, 2009)

Heritage said:


> Call up the Ministry of Housing and Municipal Affairs and get your license before you call yourself a GC/Renovator/Carpenter. Yes it is mandatory here in Toronto, as is WSIB & Insurance.


Heritage,
I'm not that far from you, and I have NEVER been asked if I was a licensed carpenter. I am not, I do have plans on completing my long ago started apprenticeship to get my papers for my own reasons.
As a framer, I have never seen it even required unless you are unionized? That is the only instance I can see it being so.
And I do have my WSIB, and insurance.


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## rotarex (Mar 31, 2008)

Heritage said:


> 17 or 50...I couldn't care less. He's a f***in hack.
> 
> If he wants to play the "big man's" game then he should play by the big man rules.
> 
> ...


since you are referring to me.
Please help me i would like that, in fact i will pay you to report me and see that it is taken care of.
trust me i will pay for your time


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## rotarex (Mar 31, 2008)

kyle_dmr said:


> Heritage,
> I'm not that far from you, and I have NEVER been asked if I was a licensed carpenter. I am not, I do have plans on completing my long ago started apprenticeship to get my papers for my own reasons.
> As a framer, I have never seen it even required unless you are unionized? That is the only instance I can see it being so.
> And I do have my WSIB, and insurance.


every one is allowed to get their WSIB and Insurance, License is The city of Toronto and its not even enforced, i my self want to get the GC licenses but just never had time, and i have yet to be asked for one from any of the city's and i do alot of my own drawings.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

Kid................ and you are still a kid. I have to accept that you must throw hands real good. Because if you did not, someone like Griz would have cleaned your clock long ago. I sure as hell know I would have. When you flew hot, you just happened to insult one of the best men on this forum.

Attitude and a mouth are good things to have....... once you learn to control both. But unchecked and randomly thrown around, they will hurt you more than help. But you've still got time to work on both.

Griz called you unqualified. Well is that wrong? No, it is not. He stated a plain fact. Being "qualified" means you not only have some raw talent, but that you have also stood for the tests of your peers and passed them. Most of us here were outstanding framers and workers, in general, before we began to evolve into business leaders. That meant really only one thing. We were young and weren't afraid to get dirty. None of us were truly qualified to manage worksites, control costs, develop project schedules, or lead real men. We worked, we learned, and we earned that status.

Like it or not, this beginning stage sounds like about where you are right now.

You may not know it, but I believe you already know how to estimate the time and material facts to get a framing job finished. It's not really a big deal. What you probably lack are the hundreds of other qualifying factors that must meld together to make you a contractor. A leader of men. A person who understands that he is not a "boss", but an employer and, hopefully, a leader of often highly qualified employees. A person who shows other qualified men the way.

You are not the crew. And you do not "make" the crew. They make you successful, or they break you. Fail to learn and understand that valuable piece of truism, and you will always be a frustrated, mediocre builder.

I try to be a careful, exacting reader. I weigh what I see in print. And I have to say that you seem to come up tipping the scale in a precarious direction. I read a lot of "I" in your writing. In and of itself, not a bad thing. But the "we" seems to be all too obviously lacking. Those two need to be in balance. In one of your posts (#96, I think it was) you stated you respect the guys here. I wonder. Because..........

You also said in the same post that you didn't need or want some of the comments. Well we all "WANT". Babies have that well practiced. Nothing to brag about there. But most of us often do not recognize what we "NEED". A boy hoping to qualify as a man comes to eventually understand this. He may not LIKE what he hears, yet all but the most foolish soon learns that he often NEEDS to hear and consider every side of a conversation, and that he also NEEDS to evaluate all criticism.

A surprising amount of it can be painfully true.

A suggestion? Sit on your hands as you read these posts. Keep your eager fingers off the keyboard for five or ten minutes and give your emotions some time to get out of the way of your intellect. Then, and only then, compose your replies.................... and still WAIT. Reread and rethink what you've written before you hit <SEND>.

You seem to have a fair bit going for you. Now just begin to learn to harness and control it all.

Above all................................... hang in here, Matt. Believe it or not, many of us can actually learn from you too. (Even if we can't admit it.)


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## Cjeff (Dec 14, 2009)

For me estimating is a lot of experience and WAG. (Wild assed guess) I use unit pricing then take into account the variables.
I do mostly remodeling. I can do all the carpentry aspects for usually around $15 - $20sf for only, then I add in for any other difficulties(high ceilings, cathedral ceilings, the way I have to tie into the existing crooked house, anything that will add to my time. Add in all the materials needed and a little more for unforeseen things and I am starting to get close.

I know what I want to make per hour, add on my expenses (Yes all of them) and divide by hours worked makle sure to account for bid time, materials getting time, book work time, etc. And I come out to my hourly rate. For me I spend about 20% of my time in non on the site work. Thats estimates, getting materials, book work and the like. So I have to account for that in my hourly rate.

If you want to make say $20/hour you can not just charge $20 you may need to charge double or even more because of overhead costs and such as described before. 

Only you can figure out your costs and expenses and know what you are worth. 

Running a company is very different than being the lead carpenter. It takes business sense and knowledge. Read the business section of these forums. Get some books. 'Markup & Profit' is often recommended.
Dealing with customers/clients is another whole subject.

I would recommend if at all possible work with another good crew/man for a few more years before going on your own. You will gain valuable experience and knowledge.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

FullerFramer said:


> I understand you completely. I see why insurance is a big deal and why you would be upset to see someone work without it; I will think about it more.


 The reality of insurance is twofold. Those who operate with all required insurances have a large overhead related to that. The guys who carry insurance cannot realisticly compete with those who don't and so it is.

The real risk, however, for those who go uninsured is the personal liability that follows in the event of a loss. I've had several guys get hurt on my jobs, from sprained fingers, lacerations and the worst case was a fall of about 20', interupted about 12' down by a block wall, which upended the guy, landing him on the back of his neck and shoulders in the basement.
One broken foot and a fractured vertabrae later, I am fortunate to have been operating legally. Accidents do happen, it's only a matter of when. Several thousand dollars invested up front to avert several hundred thousand in medical bills, not to mention legal fees, is cheap insurance indeed.:thumbsup:


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

Willie T said:


> Griz called you unqualified. Well is that wrong? No, it is not. He stated a plain fact. Being "qualified" means you not only have some raw talent, but that you have also stood for the tests of your peers and passed


Just to clear things up, of course I will accept being called unqualified by a guy that has much more experience than me. The thing that annoyed me was the fact that he stated that i was unqualified to run the cleanup crew, which was clearly meant to put me down, why else would he say that? I agree i shouldve handled it more maturely but maybe Griz should be a little more mature too and recognize that i'm here to learn and i want to learn and get better. Comments like that ARE NOT needed.

And just to be clear on the learning experience: I will of course continue my apprenticeship with my current employer until I get my license and gain the necessary skills for running your own business. Building this house for me would be a side job and a way to test my skills and knowledge. I hope you can respect that.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

FullerFramer said:


> Just to clear things up, of course I will accept being called unqualified by a guy that has much more experience than me. The thing that annoyed me was the fact that he stated that i was unqualified to run the cleanup crew, which was clearly meant to put me down, why else would he say that? I agree i shouldve handled it more maturely but maybe Griz should be a little more mature too and recognize that i'm here to learn and i want to learn and get better. Comments like that ARE NOT needed.
> 
> And just to be clear on the learning experience: I will of course continue my apprenticeship with my current employer until I get my license and gain the necessary skills for running your own business. *Building this house for me would be a side job and a way to test my skills and knowledge.* I hope you can respect that.


Building a house is not what most would consider a "side job"...Side jobs are something guy's do on their off time (after work and on week ends)...

Building a house is a full time job....

It's been said before and I'll say it again....

What many have a problem with is the fact that there are (a lot) of guy's like yourself that are not playing on a level field and taking possible jobs away from guy's that play by the rules.Never mind the fact that you may or may not be qualified to actually do the job....

I don't know anyone that after only a couple years of part time framing would be qualified to frame a house from the ground up.I dunno,maybe you're the second coming of Norm Abrams...


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

JumboJack said:


> Building a house is not what most would consider a "side job"...Side jobs are something guy's do on their off time (after work and on week ends)...
> 
> Building a house is a full time job....


I know what a side job is, and I have worked with a crew of framers on a house that we only worked at on weekends. It was a sidejob.



JumboJack said:


> It's been said before and I'll say it again....
> 
> What many have a problem with is the fact that there are (a lot) of guy's like yourself that are not playing on a level field and taking possible jobs away from guy's that play by the rules.Never mind the fact that you may or may not be qualified to actually do the job....


I am no different than most of the guys around here, but of course I understand how you feel and I'm sure I will feel it to when I get my license/insurance and see the same guys that are hear now still doing the same thing.



JumboJack said:


> I don't know anyone that after only a couple years of part time framing would be qualified to frame a house from the ground up.I dunno,maybe you're the second coming of Norm Abrams...


Honestly? I have built a few houses already by myself with 2 helpers. I would be more than happy to upload some pics for you. And I did not do "part-time" framing; i worked my ass off doing full-time cooperative education in grade 11 and 12 at minimum wage. I've got a $16,000 truck to prove it too.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

FullerFramer said:


> I know what a side job is, and I have worked with a crew of framers on a house that we only worked at on weekends. It was a sidejob.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would love to see some pictures...And who pulled the permits on these houses?Who payed for the materials?How did you pay your helpers?....I'm not going to ask about insurance or WC or tax's because we know the answer to that.

So you have built "a few houses" in the last two years,starting when you where 15.And with 2 helpers.How old where they?:blink:
That qualify's you you build a house for a paying customer?

I have a feeling that no matter what anyone here says you are convinced that you know what you are doing and can GC a house build on your own..
Good luck.To you.........and the HO....


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

FullerFramer said:


> I know what a side job is, and I have worked with a crew of framers on a house that we only worked at on weekends. It was a sidejob.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now I am really impressed. Here I am with 25 plus years experience, running a business for 15 years, fully insured, workers compensation, 401k bennies, etc, and I am toting around in my 99 E350 that I paid all of $6000 for 5 years ago. And here we have a 17 year old wanna be riding in his 16k truck. I guess it pays off to work around the rules. At least for now it does. Good luck in your endeavors. I have nothing more to add.


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## Cjeff (Dec 14, 2009)

I would think that he is living at home. I actually made more when I was single than I did with a wife and 2 kids. 
When you are single your household expenses are lower, A lot lower!!


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

Warren said:


> Now I am really impressed. Here I am with 25 plus years experience, running a business for 15 years, fully insured, workers compensation, 401k bennies, etc, and I am toting around in my 99 E350 that I paid all of $6000 for 5 years ago. And here we have a 17 year old wanna be riding in his 16k truck. I guess it pays off to work around the rules. At least for now it does. Good luck in your endeavors. I have nothing more to add.


I'm sorry I only meant it as proof of working my butt off at $8.90,nothing more.



JumboJack said:


> I would love to see some pictures...And who pulled the permits on these houses?Who payed for the materials?How did you pay your helpers?....I'm not going to ask about insurance or WC or tax's because we know the answer to that.
> 
> So you have built "a few houses" in the last two years,starting when you where 15.And with 2 helpers.How old where they?:blink:
> That qualify's you you build a house for a paying customer?
> ...


You misunderstood me. I currently work for a construction company, and that is who I framed the houses for, hence the original reason I needed help with the quote cause it would be the first time I took on a project of this size by myself. They took care of all the permits and payments and insurance.

I only built 3 houses so far this year where I was the lead guy, and the helpers were 20 and 23 I think. Last year, when I was 16, I did a 2700 sq. ft. shop just me and my dad, and I was the guy on that one too.

And I will (possibly) only frame the house, the HOs are the GC, that I admit would be above my skill level involving business. And I am convinced that I have the necessary skills to be able to frame the house.








This is the one we started Thursday of last week, I am not lead on this one.








This is the 2700 sq.ft. shop. Yes I know its basic framing.








Same shop








Shop with framing done, me and my dad also did all the tin roofing and the coupalas








An ambulance station. All we had to do was frame the roof, the walls were ICF








This is an addition onto a community center. I had lead on this until another framer came and took over from me when I went back to school. Its 16x88.








Addition, on the first floor.








Me, after completing a small porch roof. For those who are wondering the reason there are 2 beams is that this was built on an independent slab, so obviously I cant have a ledger on the main building.


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

Cjeff said:


> I would think that he is living at home. I actually made more when I was single than I did with a wife and 2 kids.
> When you are single your household expenses are lower.


Yeah haha I still live at home. As much as I want to move out it is financially awesome to live at home.

Is there a reason the pictures arent showing up in the thread^^ did i do something wrong?


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

FullerFramer said:


> Honestly? *I have built a few houses already by myself with 2 helpers*.





FullerFramer said:


> You misunderstood me. I currently work for a construction company, and that is who I framed the houses for, hence the original reason I needed help with the quote cause it would be the first time I took on a project of this size by myself.


:blink:


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## dprimc (Mar 13, 2009)

Gotta love someone asking for advice and then only wanting to 'hear' what goes along with what they already want to do.

Counsel isn't asking for someone experienced to tell you what you want to hear. True counsel is taking the good and the bad and then making a wise decision based on what you've learned.

To me, you're just acting like most other 17 year olds thinking you can do anything and not wanting to listen to anybody.


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

JumboJack said:


> :blink:


Sorry JumboJack that is definetly my mistake. What I meant is that I have framed houses as lead with 2 guys for this construction company. I have not framed any houses on my "own" yet, this will possibly be my first. Hope that clears things up. And yeah if you click on the links you can see my pics, i dont know why they dont show up


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Like they said on Caddy Shack, "Go for it!!"


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Like they said on Caddy Shack, "Go for it!!"


Noooonan....

Noooonan......

.....................NOONAN!!!


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

PrestigeR&D said:


> this thread is going to get closed... :whistling
> Brian





loneframer said:


> It might rabbit, it might


 Man, now I'm back on the fence. I thought it was going South, then it came back, now it's Going South again....


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Miss it Noonan! Miss! Miss!!!


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Do you do drugs Danny?


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Do you do drugs Danny?


Everyday.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

I think you are in over your head too. The smart thing to do would be to tell him "Sorry I'm not prepared for bidding a job, I'll work as a lead carpenter for someone for a wage, but I won't quote any jobs." There's a lot of things that can go wrong, injuries, you can underbid and won't be able to finish, lawsuits, etc.

But if you are set on doing this, the only real way to price it out, being that you are unexperienced in estimating, would be to call three other framing contractors in your area and ask them to give you a ball park estimate on the house. Then determine your price somewhere in that range, you can price it in the low end range if you want. But plan out the job and make sure you can get it done in the price that you quote him. And if he tries to negotiate your price down, which he probably will, Tell him NO!


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## S.R.E. (Apr 8, 2010)

KennMacMoragh said:


> But if you are set on doing this, the only real way to price it out, being that you are unexperienced in estimating, would be to call three other framing contractors in your area and ask them to give you a ball park estimate on the house.


So your suggesting he waste three contractors time to provide him with a free estimating service?  Maybe I misunderstood your meaning though.


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## CCCo. (Jul 19, 2009)

*I finally made some sense out of the internet.*


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

S.R.E. said:


> So your suggesting he waste three contractors time to provide him with a free estimating service?  Maybe I misunderstood your meaning though.


Only takes a few minutes, wouldn't bother me. We had to do that in college for scheduling and estimating classes.


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

Well there went 7 minutes of my life I'm never gonna get back. :wallbash:


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Do you supply labour only?
Or materials and labour?


Are you concerned about your skill level to finish the job properly?
Or only the pricing?


If it's only the pricing, Ask the Guy you work for to look at the plans and give you some help. 

How can I tell you what to charge?

Locally we get paid per sq/ft. Plus extras for walkouts arches etc.


People here are friendly usually, but you come across in an abrasive manner. Nobody needs to help you, any answers you got were for free.

This site is a good resource, I have been helped tremendously by being a member here. You will too. Being a good craftsman is only part of being a contractor, being a businessman is a huge part too. This site can be a huge benefit to you. Now and in the future.

I recommend not burning bridges. Be polite, be respectful take advise.

:thumbsup: (except tins sunburn remedy) :no:


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

knucklehead said:


> Gus, your should be Secretary of State or something


Shhhhh, Tom! We're going to send his name in on a "write-in" nomination at the next election.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

hughjazz said:


> (except tins sunburn remedy) :no:


:laughing::laughing:

No kidding!


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

...


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

:laughing: _ Are you talkin' to me?_


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## jhammer7 (Nov 19, 2009)

*Noonan*

"Be the ball Noonan......be..the ball":laughing:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

hughjazz said:


> (except tins sunburn remedy) :no:


Hey, it works! Wuss. :laughing:


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## CCCo. (Jul 19, 2009)




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## blackbear (Feb 29, 2008)

hire someone to come do the estimate. There are people that do this for a living.

I can appreciate the ambition, I was once in similar shoes. Building a 2000 sq ft house is no joke and not for an amateur. I'm 27 and have been in this industry since I was 14. I have been part of some pretty wild framing jobs and still would be a little uneasy if someone came up to me and said "give me a price on building a house". 

Good luck.


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

knucklehead said:


> Gus, your should be Secretary of State or something





Willie T said:


> Shhhhh, Tom! We're going to send his name in on a "write-in" nomination at the next election.


Kiss my butt at your own risk. I can't understand how I have survived the smell this long.:laughing:


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

ill come help you, we can do it together:thumbsup:


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## Brutus (May 29, 2007)

JumboJack said:


> I'ma going to end this rally.:laughing:
> 
> 
> If you have to be 18 to get a license in Canada as the OP has stated (I would assume that is true) then there is no way an insurance company is going to give a policy to an unlicensed contractor....


 
I think the licence the OP was talking about was the Red Seal and not the contractors licence. You do not have to be red sealed to work in carpentry around here.


(ps- I know this an old thread... but Nick bumped it up first:whistling)


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

Just to give an update to this thread, I ended up not submitting a quote. Now, nearly a year later I am owner of a registered company with liability insurance and WSIB clearance. I have had solid work this summer, and surprised a lot of people given my age (19) and quality of work. I have also completed 2 levels of in -school carpentry courses (required for apprenticeship/license). Thanks for the help last year, 

Matt


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Right on Matt:thumbsup:


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## WilsonRMDL (Sep 4, 2007)

Good to hear your doing well, keep at it.


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## Tdawg (Jul 24, 2011)

Deleted


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

Wow, just read through all that while drinking my Sat morning coffee. That was a roller coaster ride!


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Well, that was entertaining. JAW


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

FullerFramer said:


> Just to give an update to this thread, I ended up not submitting a quote. Now, nearly a year later I am owner of a registered company with liability insurance and WSIB clearance. I have had solid work this summer, and surprised a lot of people given my age (19) and quality of work. I have also completed 2 levels of in -school carpentry courses (required for apprenticeship/license). Thanks for the help last year,
> 
> Matt



what does your company do.


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

FramingPro said:


> what does your company do.


Framing and roofing mostly..


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

FullerFramer said:


> Framing and roofing mostly..


nice, how many guys, House framing? Thats what i like and willl do concrete. roofing and framing 
but framing is still the best


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

FramingPro said:


> nice, how many guys, House framing? Thats what i like and willl do concrete. roofing and framing
> but framing is still the best


Ya I really like framing too, the more challenging the better..


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## FramingPro (Jan 31, 2010)

FullerFramer said:


> Ya I really like framing too, the more challenging the better..



ya, do you do houses on your own now? or just garages and additions


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## FullerFramer (Feb 5, 2010)

FramingPro said:


> ya, do you do houses on your own now? or just garages and additions


Yeah a few, no tract houses though.


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