# Putting soap in mud



## Chazbe (Apr 13, 2007)

I have read on here the tip about adding some dish washing soap to your mud to help in the application. I am just finishing hanging and mudding a kitchen so after I beded the tape and did the first coat with AP i switched to lightweight for the final 2 coats(as normal). I thinned out the LT WT as normal, about 5oz of water into 3 gal of mud and and decided to try the soap trick. I put in about a shot glass of soap, mixed it in, and went to town. I was shocked:thumbup:
That mud flowed as smooth as a babys butt. Feathered great. It also seemed to sand a little bit easier. I am now a convert.:clap:
FYI, I am hand taping, no boxes. 
Thanks to whomever first figured that out, whether they post on here or not. :thumbsup:
Chuck


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Glad to hear it worked for ya'.

Al Gore says he invented that way, way back in his college days at 'Plaster of Paris' :laughing:


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## DeanV (Feb 20, 2006)

Any chance that having soap in the mud could interfere with paint adhesion? It seems like it could.


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## Drywalller (Jan 2, 2007)

Ive used soap in mud for years, I used joy.
No adhesion problems and definitely smoother to work with.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

This sounds great, can't wait to try it.


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## randomkiller (Sep 22, 2007)

And it's a good way to get your _workers_ near some soap on a daily basis.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

And just remember not to re-open them buckets once they've been re-sealed . . . :laughing:


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## Chazbe (Apr 13, 2007)

Oh, I forgot to mention.......

The lemony smell was just terrific:thumbup::jester:

Chuck


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## Al Taper (Jul 10, 2007)

The problem i have with soap in the mud is when you sand it it bubbles up.:laughing:
And it makes the work smell good.


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## mcdelio (Dec 16, 2007)

Is there a set formula or amount that should be used ? or is it measured to preference


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## Brockster (Aug 24, 2007)

I use the three second squirt rule unless it is friday then it's 5 seconds for speed mud. :thumbup:


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## Nigel S. Shorts (Jul 21, 2007)

This thread makes me shudder. There should be no Joy in Mudville:no:

Seriously, are you sure there are no problems with adhesion after doing this? The old "if it looks good, it is good" adage doesn't always hold water.


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## Brockster (Aug 24, 2007)

Nigel S. Shorts said:


> This thread makes me shudder. There should be no Joy in Mudville:no:
> 
> Seriously, are you sure there are no problems with adhesion after doing this? The old "if it looks good, it is good" adage doesn't always hold water.


Seriously, I'm sure.


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## mrp (Dec 1, 2007)

Why don't the manufacterers include it in the mud or market their own brand of dishso, er, I mean "mud conditioner"?

I haven't found any reputable studies on this practice (or even articles) in Walls and Ceilings or similar trade rags. Anyone know of one?

I've asked USG about dishsoap, and their response comes down to "don't add anything but water, and we won't warrant the product if you do." Not very enlightening.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Stucco guys did this in the past. The detergent would destroy the asphalt in the paper leaving no protection for the building. BUT, the stucco went on real smooth.

Obviously there's no asphalt in drywall, but, will the detergent damage the gypsum or paper over time? Someone needs to ask a manufacturer.


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## mrp (Dec 1, 2007)

thom said:


> Stucco guys did this in the past. The detergent would destroy the asphalt in the paper leaving no protection for the building. BUT, the stucco went on real smooth.
> 
> Obviously there's no asphalt in drywall, but, will the detergent damage the gypsum or paper over time? Someone needs to ask a manufacturer.


There is asphalt in moisture resistant drywall (aka greenboard), but that's another can of worms.


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## dryrocker27 (Dec 2, 2007)

A sales rep from National Gypsum visited with us in the summer of 06'. He saw one of our guys adding soap to a couple buckets of mud and was very curious as to why we did this. We told him that it helped the mud to flow better and made it easier to sand. He wanted a bucket of it to take back to "The Office".

He came back two months later and told us that the soap seemed to break down some of the components within the compound and that National Gypsum would not stand behind any claims involving altered compounds.

He suggested a mid-weight compound, known as "Machine Grade". In their research, the mid-weight compound was close to the mud with the soap added. He brought us 6 buckets to try. We have enjoyed this compound and our supplier now stocks it for us. 

This Compound requires less water and no soap. If soap is added, very little water is needed.


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## oldrivers (May 6, 2007)

A sales rep from National Gypsum visited with us in the summer of 06'. He saw one of our guys adding soap to a couple buckets of mud and was very curious as to why we did this. We told him that it helped the mud to flow better and made it easier to sand. He wanted a bucket of it to take back to "The Office".

He came back two months later and told us that the soap seemed to break down some of the components within the compound and that National Gypsum would not stand behind any claims involving altered compounds.


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well i dont know how you can make a comparisom between the two , usually tapers put the bucket of mud with soap on in one day then it dries the next , the sales rep took a bucket with soap in it and let it sit for two months ???? if you take a plane ole bucket of mud and open it then close it back up it will start to mold and smell in a few months also. I'd rely on years of personal expierience before i'd rely on a sales rep. if you've been using mud with soap with no problems then keep doing it as far as im concerned.


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

I need to know the color of that bucket at HD so I can buy (middle weight = Purple color)?


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## Rich Turley (Apr 9, 2005)

I have heard that soap in the mud will decrease bubbles when skimming over painted drywall. Don't know the ratio though.

Rich


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## Drywalller (Jan 2, 2007)

They do make a additive,Dr smooth mud I think it is and another one No pock pro.
I have used the No pock with good results,Less bubbles but not much difference than just soap.


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## Mr. Drywall (Dec 5, 2007)

Rich Turley said:


> I have heard that soap in the mud will decrease bubbles when skimming over painted drywall. Don't know the ratio though.
> 
> Rich


No more than the size of a silver dollar for a bucket. And yes, to much soap will cause the paint to not stick. If you can smell the soap your using to much, the mud will be to soft.


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## Mr. Drywall (Dec 5, 2007)

oldrivers said:


> A sales rep from National Gypsum visited with us in the summer of 06'. He saw one of our guys adding soap to a couple buckets of mud and was very curious as to why we did this. We told him that it helped the mud to flow better and made it easier to sand. He wanted a bucket of it to take back to "The Office".
> 
> He came back two months later and told us that the soap seemed to break down some of the components within the compound and that National Gypsum would not stand behind any claims involving altered compounds.
> 
> ...


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## Brockster (Aug 24, 2007)

Mr. Drywall said:


> No more than the size of a silver dollar for a bucket. And yes, to much soap will cause the paint to not stick. If you can smell the soap your using to much, the mud will be to soft.


Oh, you're a chemist too or do you have documentation to back up your claim? 
The problem with your statement is many of us use more or less soap than you described on jobs for many many years with no ill effect. 

BTW, welcome to the site.


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## Brockster (Aug 24, 2007)

Mr. Drywall said:


> oldrivers said:
> 
> 
> > A sales rep from National Gypsum visited with us in the summer of 06'. He saw one of our guys adding soap to a couple buckets of mud and was very curious as to why we did this. We told him that it helped the mud to flow better and made it easier to sand. He wanted a bucket of it to take back to "The Office".
> ...


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## Mr. Drywall (Dec 5, 2007)

Brockster said:


> Oh, you're a chemist too or do you have documentation to back up your claim?
> The problem with your statement is many of us use more or less soap than you described on jobs for many many years with no ill effect.
> 
> BTW, welcome to the site.


30 years of finishing experience. After 30 years of mixing mud, that is the amount I needed to accomplish a smooth, crater less job that was easy to sand, but not to soft as to weaken the compound. I preferred ivory, worked best for me. I have seen 2 houses were you could smell the soap. The finisher always used at least 2 bottles of soap on his jobs. I was sent out to look at it when the paint would not stick, I seen the painter trying to roll it on and it coming right off. It would stick were the paper was but not the mud. We called him "Smoken Joe" I have also seen guys put soap in tape mud. Because it wipes down easier. But yet they cant figure out why they get cracks. There are all kinds out there.


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## Chazbe (Apr 13, 2007)

Since I started this thread I figured I would give an update.

When I did the finish sanding the mud sanded real easy. No problems whatsoever. Primed with SW Prep Rite High Build and 2 coats of Promar 200. All went on very easy. The day after painting I had to tape off the walls to do the trim painting. Didnt give a full 24 hours of drying. Tape stuck well and peeled off clean, no pulling of the paint.

So I guess at this point I would have to say that putting soap in the finish mud has not caused any ill effects. Now to see what the test of time will do.

Merry Christmas
Chuck


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## Bill (Mar 30, 2006)

I use it all the time. I put in just enough that when it is mixed it has the consistancy of cake frosting. Flows on so good hardly any sanding to do. As for the test of time I done all my drywall in my house about 24 years ago (Used Joy) and the paint still sticks.


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## Brockster (Aug 24, 2007)

Mr. Drywall, thanks for having thick skin but some other replies from our other tradesmen kind of irked me. :thumbsup:

Two bottles of soap on one house? I do hope they were the small bottles. :laughing:

Sorry for being a jerk earlier.


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## Redman (Mar 22, 2006)

I have been adding soad to the my mud for the last 5 years and have never had a problem. I have had many people ask why I do it but Its kind of hard to explain unless you are in the trade, works very well and would not hesitate to use the soap trick at all. I don't care what the USG sale rep says, it's tried and true by a lot of professionals who are in the field using it, not some guy in a lab coat.


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## dryrocker27 (Dec 2, 2007)

The machine grade compound came in a ProForm bucket with a burgendy label and lid, however i get it in boxes and it has the same burgendy label with machine grade in the label instead of All Purpose.

Do not be fooled, that Multi Purpose compound put out by National Gypsum is not the same as Machine Grade.

Oldrivers - We have been using soap in our muds for my entire 25 year career. I learned it from the crew that taught me and every crew i ever worked on used it. It seems to me that we all know that the soap breaks down the mud since it flows better and, the soap and the mud both have latex in them. I am sure that you have opened a bucket that froze and found that the latex rose to the top. Other than fragerance and the mild acid that is in the soap it is the same latex. I am sure that the compound manufactures have heard of this trick also and you are probably correct, however i am sure that they have reseached this soap thing just as we have.

Home depot in my area will not consider getting any National Gypsum compound due to an agreement with Lowes. HD only carry USG compounds here.

We were using a shot glass of soap in our compounds. Box mud only has 4 gallons in them.

We still use the soap any time we work in plaster repair work or over paint


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## Bill (Mar 30, 2006)

I am not in the drywall trade, but I do drywall at times when I have to. I think the reason the soap works is because the mud consists of water. As we work with the mud it loses water content thereby getting dryer. This causes the mud to stick to the blade. The soap acts as a moisture, and lubricator, thust the mus is less apt to stick causing scratches, balling, and crusties as I call it.


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## savant (Dec 15, 2007)

To sum it up, Detergents contain "surfactants" = "surface active agents" = "wetting agents" These surfactants work on a molecular level to reduce surface tension. in essence, they "relax" the mud. Just like they relax surface tension in water-borne mixtures. Water containing minute amounts of detergents is referred to as "wet water". Water with detergents in it does not bead up, rather it spreads out and penetrates where possible. (think of washing your car.)
If you add the detergent to your water instead of your mud, you can manage to use much less, because it easily disperses in the water with very little mixing. When mixed in the mud, more is needed because it's such a small quantity and osmosis is slowed by all the solids in the mix.
I hope Brockster doesn't jump me and check my credentials... my papers aren't in order.:w00t:


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## route514 (Apr 17, 2007)

Does the soap trick work with hot mud? I work with that stuff alot because of a lot of small repair work. Thx for the interesting topic.


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## Tim0282 (Dec 11, 2007)

route514 said:


> Does the soap trick work with hot mud? I work with that stuff alot because of a lot of small repair work. Thx for the interesting topic.


Might want to be careful putting soap in hot mud. Sometimes it will set it immediately.


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## mseneker (Dec 22, 2007)

I've been thinking about the product "NO Pock" which is an additive for mud in place of dawn dish soap. We purchased a case and used it. My finishers said they noticed it reduces the chance of air holes where heavy mud was applied over painted surfaces such as patches.

I'm not sure it was worth the extra money when used on entire jobs of larger size.


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## ABN Homes (Jan 9, 2008)

*pin holes in the mud*

i have always thought and that pin holes in the mud had to do with over mixing, entraining too much air into it. just like aerated concrete. what does the soap do for that? seems like it would add more to it. or is this one of those "board stretcher" things?


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## oldrivers (May 6, 2007)

To avoid pinholes i always try to put as much mud on during the second coat so that when you apply the finish coat your only applying a paper thin layer of mud thats why i absolutely hate finish coating other peoples work i find they usually dont fill the beads , flats ,buttjoints well enough on the second coat so you have to apply a thicker 3rd coat wich you have to float and try not taking off to much and you will leave more pock marks . Even when im working with my partners they tend to like really wet mud i tend to like my mud more thicker cause it shrinks less and needs less mud on the finish coat " thinner " less pock marks. basically if your getting pock marks it means you need to put on more coats your 2nd coat isnt filled in enough for a finish coat or your using the wrong mud for coating. 

The only reason i use soap "only few squirts per bucket" is so that the mud flows better and doesnt tack up while im trying to run it through the boxes. 
i see people adding to much water to their mud when trying to run boxes because its easier to use, less strain on the body .The soap does the same thing but you dont have to run your mud really soupy less water ,less shrinkage, less mud on the floor. ive never seen i problem relating to using soap but the again i dont use alot of it.


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