# My own boiler - air trapped in upstairs zone.



## theflynner (Jul 10, 2007)

Can you help with with home boiler problem.

I have a gas hot water 100K boiler with baseboard heat in six zones. There are no air vents beyond the boiler. The highest loop of my 3 story house keeps getting trapped air and not heating. I can hear air bubbles in the pump when it starts and I find no water leaks.

My pressure gauge is broke, and I have it set to heat to 190 degrees. I have an air scoop with a Watts air vent, which continues to burp air occasionally. (It looks a little beat-up.) The expansion tank not water-logged.

1. If the air vent is working properly, shouldn't it remove all the air continuously from the system?
2. Can I really diagnose the problem if I don't have a working pressure gauge?
-- Will a new pressure gauge work if I just screw in into a system outlet valve and open the valve?

Any help or a short lesson would be appreciated.

John the roofer:


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## Dr Heat (Dec 25, 2008)

1 yes the air vent should remove the air 
2 you should never operate a dry boiler if the tridicator is actualy broken replace it. It is extreemly dangerous to opperate a dry boiler . Shut it down let it cool add water manualy till the gage reads 12 psi or the presure valve blows. If the valve blows first you know the gage is broke replace it.

If you are constently loosing water you have a leak. 

Boilers can be dangerous the tridicator is a safty drvice to let you know how much water is in the boiler. Dry boilers kill!


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## Dr Heat (Dec 25, 2008)

changing the tridicator is easy 

Shut down the boiler

Let it cool

Releave the presure throu the boiler drain

unscrew the old gage 

put dope on the new valve 

screw it in 

refill the boiler 

Bleed the system

If you do not know how to power bleed the system call a pro. There are too many unknowens to give a proceedure.


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## theflynner (Jul 10, 2007)

Thank - by the way, here is the picture I tried to send instead of the picture of my car .......


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## tccoggs (Dec 17, 2008)

Move your pump to the feed side of the boiler, this will alter the pressure characteristics of the system and will increase the pressure at the high point of the system forcing the air back into the water and allowing your air scoop to do its job and remove the air as now the point of lowest pressure in the system will be at the expansion tank/Air Scoop.

It would be helpful to see all the near boiler piping as well.

If you really want a great source of info on Hydronic heating, check out the book Pumping Away by Dan Holohan. He also runs the website Heatinghelp.com


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## DuMass (Feb 6, 2008)

theflynner said:


> Thank - by the way, here is the picture I tried to send instead of the picture of my car .......


That air vent looks spent. I would start by replacing that and the tridicator. At least then you can tell if boiler pressure is adequate.


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## theflynner (Jul 10, 2007)

Heres a couple more pictures. Ignore the grey steel column and the black gas pipe. TCcoggs - to clarify - when you say "feed side", are you referring to the feeding into the boiler or feeding the radiators after going through the boiler. I have seen recommendations for either, but there has to be a best way.

Also - how long should the pump last? - maybe replace while the other work being done.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

I was expecting to see zone circulators as you stated you have six zones. Usually there is a spigot on them & you can turn the furnace up and open that spigot valve on that zone and keep it open until you get all the air out. 
The problem with this, in your situation is your pressure gauge, is you won't know if your furnace is replacing the water. Change that guage as someone suggested & watch your pressure guage to make sure your water line is putting the water back in the system, keeping it up to around 12 psi.
If not, shut it down & check your watts regulator & the check valve on the water line....... they could be restricted.............. Hope this helps.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

tccoggs said:


> Move your pump to the feed side of the boiler, this will alter the pressure characteristics of the system and will increase the pressure at the high point of the system forcing the air back into the water and allowing your air scoop to do its job and remove the air as now the point of lowest pressure in the system will be at the expansion tank/Air Scoop.
> 
> It would be helpful to see all the near boiler piping as well.
> 
> If you really want a great source of info on Hydronic heating, check out the book Pumping Away by Dan Holohan. He also runs the website Heatinghelp.com


I think the answer is here. I do not know how a system ever works properly pumping toward an expansion tank. Everything I ever read is about pumping away for the tank to lower the static pressure in the system which prevents a water reducer from letting in more water as it senses a pressure drop across the pump. At the same time air bubbles generated at the pump are lower pressure and bigger so they can cause a problem. 
Flynner I remember you posting about this last year, you have to eat it and call a pro to get you cleared up. I understand these things and I still would.
The tank should be close to 17psi for a 3 story loop and then how its all directed is critical. If the gauge is busted something caused it.


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## theflynner (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks, and I do give up !!


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## tccoggs (Dec 17, 2008)

theflynner said:


> Heres a couple more pictures. Ignore the grey steel column and the black gas pipe. TCcoggs - to clarify - when you say "feed side", are you referring to the feeding into the boiler or feeding the radiators after going through the boiler. I have seen recommendations for either, but there has to be a best way.
> 
> Also - how long should the pump last? - maybe replace while the other work being done.


The feed side of the boiler is the pipe exiting the top of the boiler where the expansion tank and air scoop is. Right now your pump is on the return side basically sucking water through the system and pushing it into the boiler and in the expansion tank. This creates higher pressure at the expansion tank and air scoop so the air in the system stays in solution and doesnt get evacuated by the air scoop/vent. if you were to move the pump to the vertical riser on the pipe exiting the air scoop, now the lowest point of pressure is at the expansion tank and air that is trapped in the higher parts of the system is more likley to go into solution due to the higher pressure and travel back down to the boiler/air scoop where the pressure is low and will fall out of solution and exit the system.

You should definetly change the tridacator as well. The pump should last the life of the boiler assuming it hasn't seen excessive amount of air in the system which causes corrosion. If your system tends to be noisy, you could replace the pump with a delta T or Delta P pumps like the Wilo Eco or Grundfos Alpha that with both vary their speed to meet the needs of the system. Most boilers today ship with a Taco 007 which for homes is too much presure and while the heating system works your using more electric to drive the pump and creating excessive noise in the system.


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## tccoggs (Dec 17, 2008)

Here are a few pics of my boiler. As you can see my pumps are on the feed side of the boiler after the air scoop and expansion tank. You should also have a drain setup of the return side of the boiler with shutoff and drains that will allow you to force the air out of the loops. I also like to place the boiler fill at or near the expansion tank as I dont like to dump cold fill water into a hot boiler. This way it mixes with the loop water before hitting the CI boiler, as well as the fact that most fill valves are 10-12 PSI, which is the appropriate pressure of the suction side of the pump, but this depends alot of the size of the house and head pressure of the pumps.


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## Dr Heat (Dec 25, 2008)

You've all read pumping away that's sweet. Circulators have been put on the return side of piping for years, that doesn't make it rite but it does work. I an average house it will make little difference. Bleed each zone and fix the leak. As I said earlier fix the tridicator.


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## XLARGEX (Sep 20, 2011)

Dr Heat said:


> 1 yes the air vent should remove the air
> 2 you should never operate a dry boiler if the tridicator is actualy broken replace it. It is extreemly dangerous to opperate a dry boiler . Shut it down let it cool add water manualy till the gage reads 12 psi or the presure valve blows. If the valve blows first you know the gage is broke replace it.
> 
> If you are constently loosing water you have a leak.
> ...


Hello ! Just stumbled upon your post and I have a question in regards to pricing 6 7ft baseboard radiators ! Or is there a certain price per foot for T and M... And Im up in Chicago if this helps ! Thanks Jeff


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## Dr Heat (Dec 25, 2008)

XLARGEX said:


> Hello ! Just stumbled upon your post and I have a question in regards to pricing 6 7ft baseboard radiators ! Or is there a certain price per foot for T and M... And Im up in Chicago if this helps ! Thanks Jeff


I am also in the chi town area. This forum frowns on pricing questions. I take cost + 40% add Cost of labor with overhead, remember to add tax and misc parts (propane solder etc.) then if the job is less than one day of labor I add a fuel charge and port to port charge.


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

Air scoops generally need 18" min of straight pipe on their inlet side to work properly. You don't have 18".


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## theflynner (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks guys. Actually fixed it myself and seams to be working good. Found the small leak, replaced the tridicator and also replaced the scoop with a Vortec air separator. Thanks for the lessons. As as side job I've started repairing the neighbors boilers for $14.00./ hour to earn some extra cash, (kidding).

JF


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## BadgerBoilerMN (Sep 10, 2010)

Dr. Heat is right. Reading "Pumping Away" does not a hydronic man make. Pumping to works, perhaps not as well, but your problem was simply low pressure and a much neglected vent. I wonder if the PRV is in serviceable order...the most important component of any boiler system. I am also curious about the quality of conversion. Had your combustion analyser calibrated lately?

Everyone here had and idea - if not a clue - but fooling around with space heating boilers is rarely worth the potential risks to man and machine. For a few hundred dollars all could be made right and last for decades.


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## snapperhead (Jul 3, 2006)

you can add a T to that relief riser pipe and while your at it turn that thing 180 degrees that thing blows off it will soak the gas valve.see the last poster with the header and valves if you had that setup with the boiler off shut the riser zone valve run a hose to the petcock and push the air out of each zone while draining the boiler to relieve that added pressure....on the busted pressur eguage i guess your not reading tempertures either...local grainger supply has a dual guage F/PSI as was shipped when it was new.you should be below the relief at setpoint on any zone..with psi to spare without even dripping


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## vanmat17 (Apr 24, 2014)

Pumps dont create pressure also pressures equalize and all zones would be equal.
There can be a slight pressure diff across pump so it is better to put it on the outlet of the boiler. Then if you need to raise press due large vertical rise the highest press is on the system not the boiler and pressure relief valve.
A DIYer should never work on their boiler or anyone elses for that matter. If people realized how much of a potential ticking time bomb they were working on they would be floored. People plz plz plz never try to fix a steam boiler the potential energy is out of sight.


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## BadgerBoilerMN (Sep 10, 2010)

We pump _to_ all low-mass boilers for reasons too numerous to list. But listen Van; he knows whereof he speaks.


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