# Control joints in concrete foundation walls



## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

From the responses in the previously locked out thread,there appeared to be considerable surprise regarding the need for control joints in concrete foundation walls. While I have to admit they are not seen often does not in any way diminish the need for their usage.

We as an industry almost universally understand that "new" concrete shrinks. That is why we utilize control joints in CMU walls. Who among us would think of pouring a 50'--60' long concrete driveway without jointing it ? A concrete foundation is nothing more than a real thick driveway stood on edge.


The same good practices utilized in commercial work should also be implemented in residential applications,no exceptions.

The locked thread originated as a result of the concrete contractor not adhering to possibly little known but non the less trade standards. The Portland Cement Assoc. publishes a 7 page paper that is a guide to placing trouble free concrete foundations. Their report is titled Concrete Basements For Residential & Light Building Construction. Try as I may,it seems non available on line.


Here is a brief excerpt on joints in basement walls. "Proper jointing is of great importance if uncontrolled cracking of concrete walls is to be avoided. A control joint provides for expansion and contraction movements in the plane of a wall or slab.It is used to prevent unsightly,unwanted random cracking caused by drying shrinkage".


While cracks in slabs are unsightly,in foundations besides being unsightly,provide a pathway for water intrusion. We all know how much fun wet leaky basements are.:no:


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

I agree 100% with placing control joints along poured foundation walls . Why it's not done , I think you'll get a few different answer's . My cousin has been in the poured foundation business for over 30 years and is highly regarded in the industry .Currently pouring a few foundation's across the street from me so I asked him why he doesn't do it. His answer was that if the footing's are done properly , on top of virgin soil ,the correct amount of re-bar ,depth and width of footing and the correct psi and slump of the concrete . He also waits at least a week before pouring the walls . That's the way he was taught and said he never saw anyone in the industry putting in control joints .To me it doesn't make sense , the city checks the sidewalks we pour for control joints but not for foundations .


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

I have 10' high by 12'' concrete foundation walls with rods... I put 5/8'' every 3' vert into the footongs and 3 runs of 1/2'' horz. 
For about 15 years no cracks....but now at both basement windows a vert crack is developing. this is in a 30' by 20' L shaped section the walls being those lengths.

I thank god I put the rods as I poted the footings..I wish I did more now but it's now 22 years. Also I have 4'' slabs with rods on blueboard with infloor heat. Not a hairline in 1o years but eever so slight cracks are developing off the oustide corners at jogs. I have exp joints at all perimeters.....I have an ungle whoe's a good crpeneter mechanic...he said I should have rounded the corners to stop the cracks. He compared it to formica..ie and interior corner rounded will not split...but square will.

IMO that only aplies to flexible material..??


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Eaglei said:


> I agree 100% with placing control joints along poured foundation walls . Why it's not done , I think you'll get a few different answer's . My cousin has been in the poured foundation business for over 30 years and is highly regarded in the industry .Currently pouring a few foundation's across the street from me so I asked him why he doesn't do it. His answer was that if the footing's are done properly , on top of virgin soil ,the correct amount of re-bar ,depth and width of footing and the correct psi and slump of the concrete . He also waits at least a week before pouring the walls . That's the way he was taught and said he never saw anyone in the industry putting in control joints .To me it doesn't make sense , the city checks the sidewalks we pour for control joints but not for foundations .





Your mentioning your cousin with 30 years experience and the way he was taught made me chuckle a bit. When I see a guy doing something in the trades that is truly not up to trade standards and he gives me the I have 30 yrs. experience line,I just laugh and say,no you don't you have 1 year experience replicated 30 times.:laughing:



The virgin soil,correct re-bar,correct PSI ,slump etc.is all well and good,however,as we all know water is a part of the equation. The control joints are needed to address the volume change that has to take place as the water leaves the mix. In other words,to control shrinkage cracks and allow them to take place at a predetermined location so they can be caulked prior to backfilling and not require digging around the exterior of the building at a later date. It boils down to the old adage,an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fancis Casini said:


> For about 15 years no cracks....but now at both basement windows a vert crack is developing. this is in a 30' by 20' L shaped section the walls being those lengths.
> 
> :




Do not beat yourself up regarding the vertical cracks adjacent to the windows. The means and methods to prevent such cracks only came into vogue around the time you did the foundation (at least that is approx. the time I read of the remedy ):laughing:


The prescribed method is to place a short rod on a 45 degree angle at the window corners.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

The simple solution for control joints in foundations is using chamfer strips vertically 2ft off corners, at window header apexes and sills and 20 ft runs along walls.

Your right, nobody does it and I'm forever fixing irregular cracking at these locations.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

superseal said:


> The simple solution for control joints in foundations is using chamfer strips vertically 2ft off corners, at window header apexes and sills and 20 ft runs along walls.
> 
> Your right, nobody does it and I'm forever fixing irregular cracking at these locations.





Exactly ! Those two articles I referenced prescribe placements of joints very near the locations you mentioned.:thumbsup:

The one I was able to provide a connection to the publication,the one from the PCA to the best of my knowledge is not available on line. Both of them clearly lay out the guidelines to give one a fighting chance for a crack free foundation providing one follows all the other good trade practices.


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

Oddly enough I see them more on agricultural work than on residential.

I don't really know why, but the inspectors for residential don't seem to mind to much when they aren't put in.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

sitdwnandhngon said:


> I don't really know why, but the inspectors for residential don't seem to mind to much when they aren't put in.





There is probably a real good chance the inspectors are not up to speed. Also,even though they are not noted on the plans,litigation can be brought against the architect (anyone can sue anyone else) they are not mandated by code. They are in the process of making them code,but who knows how long that will take.


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## duburban (Apr 10, 2008)

this is all new to me. Does anyone have diagrams/ drawings to help educate me?


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

duburban said:


> this is all new to me. Does anyone have diagrams/ drawings to help educate me?





Here is one article,however the one I referenced by the PCA is not available on line.



http://www.concreteconstruction.net/Images/Joints in Poured Walls_tcm45-342541.pdf


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Another important note to mention would be the use of slip dowels as opposed to continuous reinforcement across the locations.

Without internal relief, the wall stands no chance no matter how many chamfers or saw cuts you put in.

I'll usually pack grease in copper pipe which is sized one size larger than the rebar.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

My pal built me a house and as I was flipping through the contract it stipulated in there that up to *i believe* 1/4 inch cracking in the foundation was acceptable and not covered under warranty. 

Maybe unless it leaked, he would have dug it out if it did so I didnt pay any attention to it...

I should note this was an ol timer pal of mine, not some young whipper snapper. Been building houses since early 80's.


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## pritch (Nov 2, 2008)

I always put in control joints when I was doing res foundations. It's how I was taught, and it is what I teach the kids.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

I agree, just never thought about it before. Good info!


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

superseal said:


> Another important note to mention would be the use of slip dowels as opposed to continuous reinforcement across the locations.
> 
> Without internal relief, the wall stands no chance no matter how many chamfers or saw cuts you put in.
> 
> I'll usually pack grease in copper pipe which is sized one size larger than the rebar.


The rods at a 45 at windows is bull. I said I have 3 - 1/2'' rod horizontally. The top one is just below the window sill about 8'' or so. There is also another fine vert hairline at a beam pocket.....ie any spot that is a bit weaker will give ...however these took every bit of 10 years to show up.
I was taught in school concrete hardens up to ten years then gradually disintegrates and it sure is behaving that way.

As to the grease pockets they arent new. My wife's uncle was a super for a large const co....he told me stories how they did the greaseed rod and sleeve. The crack ended up adjacenet 

IMO the main thing is stopping the cracks rom opening with rods but cracks will happen no matter!


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

frank: I think the latest "confined fiber stress" theory of concrete design would interest you. All those vertical rods need j hooks at the ends to work better
the "sharp corners" creating stress 'risers' is old news. the nicked wire breaks at the tiny scratch.

Remember a basement has a slab to restrain the bottoms of the walls, and mostly a constant inward thrust on all faces to push many cracks closed. The use of control joints is generally for appearance, most basements are mostly out of sight.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

Fouthgeneration said:


> frank: I think the latest "confined fiber stress" theory of concrete design would interest you. All those vertical rods need j hooks at the ends to work better
> the "sharp corners" creating stress 'risers' is old news. the nicked wire breaks at the tiny scratch.
> 
> Remember a basement has a slab to restrain the bottoms of the walls, and mostly a constant inward thrust on all faces to push many cracks closed. The use of control joints is generally for appearance, most basements are mostly out of sight.


The vert rod on a 10' high 12'' wall isn't sliping. Have you ever demoed a roded wall and inserted a frost wedge into a series of holes to counter the rod's grip.....it wont give,,,the concrete around the wedge crumbles. I can see prestressed conc beams doing so.
I know the round corner thing has been around ...I did my foundtion 22 years ago..lol.

As to the exp joint for the basement perimerter I actually thought about it hindering the stabilization of the wall bottoms,however all the slabs I see shrink from the walls anyhow. And I did use super plasticizer.

Those wire nicks at acute corners?? I placed 3/8 rod at 30'' squares atop blueboard. The heat tubes were tied to the rod..except one f..n spot where we poured down thru a window,..the tube came up and was touching the back of my shoulder. I pushed it back down and re-rounded the kink [they say it has a memory] however I have a dead zone ....memory my ass.:no: I should of marked the spot:whistling

The slab is very nice still, as I said the cracks [ever so minute] are at two corners both where the slab either lengthens or shortens.
I really think its inevitable.... 

oh and I think you are forgetting I have a heated basement floor....ie that's a call for expansion at the perimeters..no?

The latest confined fiber stress?? I know about the mesh, is that the same?


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Remember a basement has a slab to restrain the bottoms of the walls, and mostly a constant inward thrust on all faces to push many cracks closed. The use of control joints is generally for appearance, most basements are mostly out of sight.




While random cracks are aesthetically unsightly and not appealing,they are also a pathway for water intrusion. It makes sense to me that at least with the utilization of control joints one has a fighting chance to predetermine where the crack will occur and take the necessary steps to minimize water intrusion BEFORE the building is backfilled,when it is the absolute most economic proposition to do so.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Frank, Re Confined fiber stress, is a theory of concrete design that represents the internal stress loads on a piece of concrete structure, to me its similar to magnetic flux diagrams or EMF fields--lines of force.


Use of this theory has lead to some change in design and location of "stirrups' etc used in beam & columns to increase load capacities and reduce failures. and the common practice of post tension floor slabs out West.

Next basement just run a couple of tension strands in every panel to keep any cracks from opening up. Kind like a boxing ring.

Any techniques we develop to eliminate cracks in concrete/CMU basements would just be used to reduced the thickness of the walls until they start to fail again. 

I just laid my basement out 12" CMus grouted on 32" centers and a bond beam below the windows. Some small cracks from I assume differential settlement..

I hope my dampproofing would cover an 1/8th inch crack...
I can't see low bid houses GCs using water stops and other costly products to ensure a 'dry' control joint.
Just sealing the poured walls ASAP would reduce the # and size of cracks.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

Tension strands.....you mean they need to be tightened like a pre stressed beam plank?.etc


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

CJ'S on the flat is one thing.....However what does one do on a hill with a series of step footings ie a series of weak points many times at odd intervals?  Then there is the split level foundation tops; beam pockets, etc etc. ie low budget engineering nightmare :whistling

get me those run thru rods or the old stone basements with 3 bags of portland and the rest lime: thumbup:

just kidding Fred but you know the scene v.i.f. when things get complicated....ie mother nature can get mean!


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fancis Casini said:


> CJ'S on the flat is one thing.....However what does one do on a hill with a series of step footings ie a series of weak points many times at odd intervals?  Then there is the split level foundation tops; beam pockets, etc etc. ie low budget engineering nightmare :whistling
> 
> :




The publication by the PCA (which is not available on line) specifically speaks of those concerns you mentioned. Very similar to brick or block walls,they recommend control joints at abrupt wall height changes,as in a stepped footing or split level foundation.:thumbsup:


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

fjn said:


> The publication by the PCA (which is not available on line) specifically speaks of those concerns you mentioned. Very similar to brick or block walls,they recommend control joints at abrupt wall height changes,as in a stepped footing or split level foundation.:thumbsup:


It is impossible to put a cj at every step when the top wall is all one level.
Fred it's residential work,the coin isn't there most of the time! It will involve cj's at the stepped footings too. The walls could become weak especially on a unstable hillside! I'd rather have rigididty and continuity and screw the hairlines. imo make the waterproofing fexible, no. 

ps I just got a message from a worker whom said he nearly was killed on that commercial brick building I bid on in West Haven CT that partially collapsed...the one I did the front over a few years back. He said the other side is falling in, like I said would happen! They have engineers who know more than I did,.. hell they wanted me to helicoil ties to hold bulging brick into lime mud with structual tile backup, 4 stories high and leave the rusted flitch plates.:whistling It's like they bait in the inexperienced for perhaps what seems like il intent.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Frank the beauty of post stress/ prestress systems is they use some pf masonrys ample compression strength to make up for lack of tensile strength, but they require special equipment and add steps to the finish line.

Think of pinnacles as 'polish' post tension... the added weight of the pinnacle keeps the masonry under it from slipping out place, always in compression.... Basements under two stories of plaster and lathe will crack less than a one story ranch with 3/8" drywall and 2x3 studs...

I see CJs as a battle line between the Architectural(beauty first) & Engineering(function before form) sides of concrete design. 
FYI my 1923 Audel's recommends CJs every 300 feet in brick work horizontally...


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> FYI my 1923 Audel's recommends CJs every 300 feet in brick work horizontally...





That is very plausible,that was an era when we still built mass walled buildings with lime based mortar that was very accommodating to differential movements.:thumbsup:


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

fjn said:


> That is very plausible,that was an era when we still built mass walled buildings with lime based mortar that was very accommodating to differential movements.:thumbsup:



yep and self healing


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Eaglei said:


> I agree 100% with placing control joints along poured foundation walls . Why it's not done , I think you'll get a few different answer's . My cousin has been in the poured foundation business for over 30 years and is highly regarded in the industry .Currently pouring a few foundation's across the street from me so I asked him why he doesn't do it. His answer was that if the footing's are done properly , on top of virgin soil ,the correct amount of re-bar ,depth and width of footing and the correct psi and slump of the concrete . He also waits at least a week before pouring the walls . That's the way he was taught and said he never saw anyone in the industry putting in control joints .To me it doesn't make sense , the city checks the sidewalks we pour for control joints but not for foundations .



The Portland Cement Association is but one school of thought. The ACA (American Concrete Association) has a lot more to say about concrete, and uses, reinforcement, and even control joints. 

I cannot speak for frost and freeze prone regions, but in Oklahoma, control joints are simply not done as a rule, except when specified by engineering. Also, once cured, and in contact with the stable temps of the earth, shrinkage and contraction are not a real issue....but shifting of the ground could be. 

As to surface concrete and control joints, they are exposed to sun and cooling at night....of course we saw control joints, or install keyways on large floors. The concrete will grow under the sun and contract in the dark. On buildings were we have been able to get on the floor quickly and get covered, like some stores, we have fewer control joints, because they are not needed after the initial shrinkage. 

As to control joints on basement walls....well shucks...are we supposed to use a gasket or keyway? I have 4 underground homes as part of my portfolio, and no leaks, no control joints, but we do waterproof the walls before backfilling. In one UG home, we literally poured the footings, big 4 foot wide and 16 inch deep sidewalks to support the 8 inch walls and 140 yard concrete roof, and had water present coming out of the sand during the pour. No control joints....but....those footings set for 3 weeks before wall construction, and 4 weeks before loading, the floors ledged the footers, and 5 weeks later, the 950,000 pound roof load was poured, no known cracks, or leaks. French drains are dry as far as I know, and there was not a control joint anywhere.....and the temps are stable at probably 65 degrees year around. 

See what the ACA says about the subject. I built a home for a concrete engineer, who holds a PHD, and was the head of the School of Construction Sciences at Oklahoma State, and I would think if there were any "risk" with not having control joints in the footings, his personal home would have had them....we did, however, about double the amount of steel in the footings, and used pier pads about every 20 feet...a first for me. :thumbsup: The ACA manual was rubbed in my face during the build.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Joasis said:


> The Portland Cement Association is but one school of thought. The ACA (American Concrete Association) has a lot more to say about concrete, and uses, reinforcement, and even control joints.
> 
> I cannot speak for frost and freeze prone regions, but in Oklahoma, control joints are simply not done as a rule, except when specified by engineering. Also, once cured, and in contact with the stable temps of the earth, shrinkage and contraction are not a real issue....but shifting of the ground could be.
> 
> ...





The ACA works in conjunction with the PCA,actually some engineers work with them both. The ACA is in the process of adopting the PCA guidelines. As slow as the wheels turn,it may be a very long time before it takes place.


As far as what should be used,gasket or keyway,the answer is neither. Both of the publications listed in this thread (one has link other does not) depict method of forming control joints.


It really is very simple,one can adopt those guidelines or reject them.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

One can accept the one size fits all, or one can logically conclude that they are not one application for everyone. 

Temperature stable footings, basement walls, floors under protection...you would have to show the need, after cure, without expectation of settling or earthquakes, where control joints are needed.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Joasis said:


> One can accept the one size fits all, or one can logically conclude that they are not one application for everyone.
> 
> Temperature stable footings, basement walls, floors under protection...you would have to show the need, after cure, without expectation of settling or earthquakes, where control joints are needed.





There is no need to try and convince those that want to dig their heels in and reject the findings of those two posted publications along with several other posts of those in the concrete field (read the entire thread). 




I fully understand the comfort one can take in rejecting a procedure that is not front page news in the construction arena.For in embracing the concept one would have to acknowledge that perhaps they are not as cutting edge as they thought. One way or the other,it is no skin off my nose.


If one wants to negate the findings of those papers,so be it.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

ACI 224.3R-95 A quite extensive publication on joints in concrete.



http://www.bpesol.com/bachphuong/media/images/book/2243r_95.pdf


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

fjn said:


> There is no need to try and convince those that want to dig their heels in and reject the findings of those two posted publications along with several other posts of those in the concrete field (read the entire thread).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fred do you realize all the flip flop engineering that the fireplace industry went through since Rumford ..heck even from past 75 years!
They still cant get a open fireplace to perform and what was gospel 300 years ago is still better than any design out there, ratio wise. HMM?

i.e. cutting edge is temporary ....imo nothing beats compaction/slump/ ample rods in sufficing a foundations connectivity .i.e. half on ledge half on earth / on soft earth / or a soft hill side...pile driving is also key.

Here's one for ya....the arrival of CJ'S in veneers and block work called for joints at M.O.'s.....aesthetically they placed them at the jamb...intelligence via experience moved them to the lintel's end to avoid a leverage effect if any vertical movement occurred on either side!

The over excavated section of footing I spoke of at my house did settle a tad in 22 years. The veneer is lifting at the intersection of a adjacent wing where I ran a L iron up the roof and welded it to a steel post. The lower end sits on the veneer welded to 12'' L iron for bearing purpose. The slight settlement is lifting the veneer at the bearing side. 
I.E. I built a crow bar! It should have merely sat loose on a plate or been pinned like the bridge plates to allow for vert movement.:whistling

Most guys lay it on the roof and lag into the framing....I did it right with through wall flashing via a hemmed copper trough over the L iron lintel. I then slipped the leafs up into the 3-1/2'' hems. Tar paper runs into the trough on the framing side and out a weeper at the soffet. 

I'm debating in either pointing or removal....

scroll to the right and note the weep hole..the lintel is below that about 6'' the window sill is opening via settlement also. It is flashed but I need to at least remove that section.

just when I thought I'd have it made...:laughing:


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

click on the pic twice to enlarge


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Frank; I do realize that engineering is changing,as you mentioned the location of expansion joints in masonry have at times been re located. That is not the debate here. The issue is the mindset that says they are not needed at all.The location is incidental.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fancis Casini said:


> The veneer is lifting at the intersection of a adjacent wing where I ran a L iron up the roof and welded it to a steel post. The lower end sits on the veneer welded to 12'' L iron for bearing purpose. The slight settlement is lifting the veneer at the bearing side.
> I.E. I built a crow bar! It should have merely sat loose on a plate or been pinned like the bridge plates to allow for vert movement.:whistling
> 
> Most guys lay it on the roof and lag into the framing....I did it right with through wall flashing via a hemmed copper trough over the L iron lintel. I then slipped the leafs up into the 3-1/2'' hems. Tar paper runs into the trough on the framing side and out a weeper at the soffet.






Frank; just shooting from the hip after reading your description of the veneer detail you used for laying brick on the sloped angle lies in the detail you used. Brick laid on sloped angle irons with a roof pitch of 7/12 or greater need vertical steel stops welded to that angle to prevent the brick from "sliding". The lack of those stops could possible be your source of trouble.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

FJN: the fact that CJ locations HAVE changed tells me engineers didn't know everything about expansion/Shrinkage, and are still a long ways from Mastering masonry.

FYI, the dirty secret of 25 foot spacings of CJ in exterior CMU walls has more to do with ease of using slide rules than any science. Can you a least spell modular spacing engineers?????? 

Just a little thought tells one the shady sides of building won't need as many CJ as the sunny side.

A few more hours at the jobsite by engineers & archies making sure the footings are to plan and actually have all the rebars install at the correct locations would reduce the need for just in case CJs.

Frank, did you ever just use a flat lintel, lay Cmus to flashing, switch to brick above flashing/roofline, no fancy engineering required, a few hundred lbs of 4" block...heck use lightweights.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

fjn said:


> Frank; I do realize that engineering is changing,as you mentioned the location of expansion joints in masonry have at times been re located. That is not the debate here. The issue is the mindset that says they are not needed at all.The location is incidental.


Table 1.2
—
Expansion joint spacings
Author Spacing
Lewerenz (1907) 75 ft (23 m) for walls.
Hunter (1953)
80 ft (25 m) for walls and insulated roofs, 30 to 40 ft (9
to 12 m) for uninsulated roofs.
Billig (1960)
100 ft (30 m) maximum building length without joints.
Recommends joint placement at abrupt changes in plan
and at changes in building height to account for poten-
tial stress concentrations.
Wood (1981) 100 to 120 ft (30 to 35 m) for walls.
Indian Standards
Institution (1964)
45 m (
≈
148 ft) maximum building length between
joints.
PCA (1982) 200 ft (60 m) maximum building length without joints.
ACI 350R-83
120 ft (36 m) in sanitary structures partially filled with
liquid (closer spacings required when no liquid
present).


So...what is your point? Do you read the table above? These are general recommendations, not carved in stone. I am not placing control joints in any structural concrete unless and only if an engineer says so by design. The project I posted photos of is engineered, and has 100 foot long walls 12 feet tall, and 80 foot walls with a top of 18 feet...and no control joints. 

This is not digging in any heels...this is simply doing as the engineer designs, not letting anecdotal tales of the old school dictate that contractors take it upon themselves to take on tasks that PE's will address.....if you think you need a control joint, then by all means....but for liability, run it by an engineer. :thumbsup:


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Just a little thought tells one the shady sides of building won't need as many CJ as the sunny side.





It seems you are confusing a control joint with a expansion joint.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

The vast majority of "joints" I construct have the brick wythe filled with a compressible foam, and the CMU wythe is filled solid with a bond breaker, raked out about 1/2" and caulked with something that is supposed to stretch ~100% or more without unbonding from either panel..

the Cmus "shrink' and Brick grow, a tiny bit.

The damp proof flashing of course usually is acting as a horizontal "joint" 

As CJ or EJ all add costs and present water intrusion issues, over specing them is silly.

Sadly, someone died on the 2cd of April erecting a high school PEMB exercise building in Argyle Texas, it appears to not have been braced properly. Godspeed.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Frank, did you ever just use a flat lintel, lay Cmus to flashing, switch to brick above flashing/roofline, no fancy engineering required, a few hundred lbs of 4" block...heck use lightweights.


No comment on Cjs EJ or any other kind of J's....but that's the only way I've done it.


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

re; Frank, did you ever just use a flat lintel, lay Cmus to flashing, switch to brick above flashing/roofline, no fancy engineering required, a few hundred lbs of 4" block...heck use lightweights.

Fred I know I in fact I drilled it with pegs ....the masonry on the roof lintel is small and is far out wieghed by the 18' wall sitting on the foundation. I also used 16 gauge ties on the entire house, nothing is sliding.

There is vert movement evident by the crack which in the pics isnt noticable.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Fancis Casini said:


> re; Frank, did you ever just use a flat lintel, lay Cmus to flashing, switch to brick above flashing/roofline, no fancy engineering required, a few hundred lbs of 4" block...heck use lightweights.
> 
> Fred I know I in fact I drilled it with pegs ....the masonry on the roof lintel is small and is far out wieghed by the 18' wall sitting on the foundation. I also used 16 gauge ties on the entire house, nothing is sliding.
> 
> There is vert movement evident by the crack which in the pics isnt noticable.





In theory,a brick veneer seems like a great idea. Imho,they present a host of challenges as one starts to "mix and match" materials.The wood as it dries has a pronounced shrinkage to it. The average two story home built with 15% moisture content lumber shrinks between 3/4"- 7/8" (mostly across grain I.E. floor joists) much less proportionally length wise in studs. Also,in reality,most framing lumber is 19% moisture content,with both picking up additional water during construction process.


Sooooo,even as 4gen mentioned,even in a composite wall we have two separate events taking place in the collar joint,the CMU are shrinking while the brick want to "grow". That is one of several reasons why mass walled masonry has always been more forgiving.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Frank; this could possibly be part of the problem you encountered.



http://www.jlconline.com/Images/Framing Details for Wood Shrinkage_tcm96-1153552.pdf


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Frank, did you install any through the wall cavity flashing above the livings space below, I my youth I never bothered... Now they all get the full Monte, surface flashing and cavity draining just above the surface flashing.

If you're just laying the iron on the roof sheathing, you could just one piece flash under that to drain to the gutter. 

Coping out the vertical flange of the diagonal lintel at the bend would just about eliminate any "crowbarring" above where it bears


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## Fancis Casini (Jan 31, 2013)

Fred the link doesnt work

4 G....yes it's through wall copper flashed.... the opposite side is all copper/ stair - through wall to framing. The side in discussion has the L iron then a copper trough i.e. down the wall 8'' flat on the lintel 5'' then up 3 then hemmed down 3''. Brick is laid in the trough, counter steps come up into the hem then cap steps mortared in the brick coursing come over the trough hem and hide it. Water leaking behind the wall and in through it will be caught in the trough. If the roof sags the counter steps will be free to go with it as they are merely inserted into the folded down 3'' hem.
The brick were secured not to slide and really couldn't due to the bulk being 16' high and on the foundation.

This may be a two cause problem.
I have expansion from the fireplace being its totally heated when the wood stove/fireplace are going for days, and the enclosed furnace room below the 12' by 6' by 8'' thick hearth slab. To boot there's a connected arch above the wood stove with the partition plates against it.
One day I heard a huge snap and the house literally shook. It came from that area but I could never find a problem however I knew it was conc cracking.
Those partition plates are also against the framed wall where the lintel is ....I think it pushed outward cracking the veneer.
This is also at the point where the lintel is stepped upward to meet the higher roof and is at joist height just outside the [box] where I used the unforgiving 16 gauge ties. :whistling
The fireplace is over 45' high.....lots of weight


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