# Rich Contractor, Poor Contractor



## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

I'm seeing this more and more (I'm sure the phenomenon has been here longer than myself) not only on this forum, but I'm seeing it through other contractors I'm either working with or am on the same site with

But there are so many out there (and here I think) who literally just shortchange themselves. Some out of ignorance --- and worse, some are even aware of it.

Now, I'm not trying to start a revolution or anything.

But what is wrong with charging for your time, your labor, your materials, your overhead, etc.?? 

I'd like to think that most contractors do this. I don't think that's the reality though.

What's the point of being a starving artist all your life?? 

Most of the time, your financial position in life is the result of your actions --- not rising gas prices, 9/11, interest rates etc.

It's either a business, or a hobby, right?


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

oh boy,,,here we go again:laughing:


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

I think you mentioned it in the long post I stayed out of. Break it down anyway you choose...you either are making money or you aren't?
Call it markup, higher labor charges or pita factor. What goes in your wallet is worth a lot more than what comes out of ones mouth:thumbup:


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

copusbuilder said:


> oh boy,,,here we go again:laughing:


yeah, i know, this is a worn out topic

but it keeps comin up


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

I should just leave it alone....maybe go Bass fishing or **** hunting as I have been told I do:laughing:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> Now, I'm not trying to start a revolution or anything.


Why not? Nothing changes unless someone does something about it:thumbsup:


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

It works out like this:

Ya build the empire one job and one fella at a time. Ya carefully comb threw the rats and take a few to the chin but gradually you build up to the bass boat, nice house, heavy equipment and all the toys of the trade.

Then she runs off and takes it all.:blink: But at least she's gone.:thumbsup:

Bob


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Glasshousebltr said:


> It works out like this:
> 
> Ya build the empire one job and one fella at a time. Ya carefully comb threw the rats and take a few to the chin but gradually you build up to the bass boat, nice house, heavy equipment and all the toys of the trade.
> 
> ...


Call this guy he may be able to help.


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## Debookkeeper (Jul 23, 2006)

Glasshousebltr said:


> It works out like this:
> 
> Ya build the empire one job and one fella at a time. Ya carefully comb threw the rats and take a few to the chin but gradually you build up to the bass boat, nice house, heavy equipment and all the toys of the trade.
> 
> ...


That's why they also don't belong working in the office. :w00t:


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## dumplin1078 (Feb 14, 2006)

Dirt, I agree it's either a business of a hobby. I used to be the one undercharging people. When I was doing my drywall at night while working a full time job I did some work for a guy who told me I didn't charge enough, (he didn't offer to give me more than I had quoted him though:w00t: ) but he is the one who made me realize that my time was worth something. He said if I was going to be out every night away from my family then I should make sure that I was charging enough to make it worth it. Now I have learned that lesson and my profits are good while I still think I have a fair price. I am still quillty of undercharging older people. I quess I have a weakness for older people, I just see someone's grandmother, and I know how my grandmother struggled. Anyway, I have been doing alot of thinking about this lately. I think you should charge a fair amount to you and the customer. It came up on another thread if you could double your price, and only get half the amount of work would you? I have mixed feelings on this. Is it fair to double your price just because some one will pay it? Its been proven we will pay three bucks a gallon for gas but every body griped about the profits the "big oil" companies were making. I don't think there was price gouging in the gas price. But if there was would we not all be pissed? So is it fair to "price gouge" just because we can. Anyway I hope there are some comments on this. Maybe I should start another thread on this.


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## dumplin1078 (Feb 14, 2006)

> Most of the time, your financial position in life is the result of your actions --- not rising gas prices, 9/11, interest rates etc.
> 
> 
> > I absolutely agree on this. The rich get richer while the poor get poorer for a reason. It's because of the actions of the rich cause them to get richer. Dave Ramsey says, " If you want to be rich, do rich people stuff, if you want to be poor do poor people stuff." Think about it how many cash advance places do you see in the high end of town?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Diggler, I'll add this - just to go a bit farther on something you said -


dirt diggler said:


> Most of the time, your financial position in life is the result of your actions --- not rising gas prices, 9/11, interest rates etc.


in my opinion your financial position in life is must highly influenced by your outlooks. When we are talking about income those outlooks are specifically influenced by who you hang around with. This isn't my original thought but it goes something like _if you want to predict a man's income, simply take the income of his 5 closest friends and average it and you will be within 10% almost everytime._

What that really means is who we have around us influences and in some cases limits our potential. Hang around with drug addicts and you're either a drug councilor or you're a drug addict yourself. Hang around a bunch of 'victims' of life and you're probably one too. So yeah, your financial position is influenced by your actions, but more importantly by your attitude. I see that most people in business if they aren't "in it to win it", they most likely just one day found themselves working for themselves instead of someone else, and that is more than good enough just in it's self for them.


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## Debookkeeper (Jul 23, 2006)

Hey Mike, you can get a side job as a motivational speaker. :thumbsup:


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

good stuff, gentlemen


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## steve-in-kville (Aug 30, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> What that really means is who we have around us influences and in some cases limits our potential. Hang around with drug addicts and you're either a drug councilor or you're a drug addict yourself. Hang around a bunch of 'victims' of life and you're probably one too. So yeah, your financial position is influenced by your actions, but more importantly by your attitude. I see that most people in business if they aren't "in it to win it", they most likely just one day found themselves working for themselves instead of someone else, and that is more than good enough just in it's self for them.




I agree with this 100%:thumbsup: I've seen this theory proven over and over again.

steve


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> I see that most people in business if they aren't "in it to win it", they most likely just one day found themselves working for themselves instead of someone else, and that is more than good enough just in it's self for them.


Mike, unfortunately, I think you're absolutely correct

and yep, attitude more than action.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

dumplin1078 said:


> The rich get richer while the poor get poorer for a reason. It's because of the actions of the rich cause them to get richer. Dave Ramsey says, " If you want to be rich, do rich people stuff, if you want to be poor do poor people stuff." Think about it how many cash advance places do you see in the high end of town?


I disagree (except for the last sentence). I think the rich get richer, because it takes money to make money. How can the poor ever get out of the vicious cycle that they're in? You need money for an education.... You need an education to make money..... ?????????


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Melissa said:


> I disagree (except for the last sentence). I think the rich get richer, because it takes money to make money. How can the poor ever get out of the vicious cycle that they're in? You need money for an education.... You need an education to make money..... ?????????


I think there is truth to that in the fringes of the example, like the single mom raising 3 kids and working 2 jobs. But for a whole lot of people the more they make the more they spend. There aren't a whole lot of poor people going bankrupt. How does somebody with a combined household income of $120K have to go BK?

Somebody here once said that if you redistributed all the wealth in the world evenly, within less than 5 years there would be rich, middle and poor again. If that's true then it doesn't support the it takes money to make mone theory. 

Really to get maybe not rich, but at least on the road, all it takes is 5 words - _spend-less-then-you-earn_.

I'm not disagreeing with you Melissa, I just think there is more to it than that.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> I'm seeing this more and more (I'm sure the phenomenon has been here longer than myself) not only on this forum, but I'm seeing it through other contractors I'm either working with or am on the same site with
> 
> But there are so many out there (and here I think) who literally just shortchange themselves. Some out of ignorance --- and worse, some are even aware of it.
> 
> ...


So, rich contractor, poor contractor.... do you take into account the contractors that are still learning? Would they be considered poor?


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

That is the key, Mike. Spend less than you make. Might I add, invest what you save.

We are seeing the fruits from the "Greatest Generation" applying the spend less than you make attitude. Now their kids are reaping the benefits.


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## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

Melissa, we all are still learning! *The people that stop learning will stop earning.* Look at all the companies that used telemarketing for their only lead source and never LEARNED new methods of getting leads. Look at the companies that do not have web-sites or even an email account.

Learning=earning


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## steve-in-kville (Aug 30, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Somebody here once said that if you redistributed all the wealth in the world evenly, within less than 5 years there would be rich, middle and poor again.



If you've ever read the "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" series of books, the author predicts the same thing... except that it'll only take 18 months for the classes to seperate.

A lot of good info in this thread. You can be the best craftsman in your trade(s). But it'll take a good money manager to become wealthy... Period.

steve


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

You do not need an education to 'make money'. 

Yea if you have money its easier to make money. Being rich means something different to everyone.

I think being successfull in life has alot to do with your attuidute. Some many people complain that they can't make money because of the President, the Governor, taxs, the economy, the man holding him down, etc. I think thats all bull shi#. When people start taking responsiblity for there actions, things will start looking up for those people.

I'm 20 years old and am in the 2nd year of owning a business. I know that if i want to have a decent life and providing a better standard of living than i had growing up for my future family, i need to get out there and make it happen. I know that nobody is going to hold my hand and help me make my first million.

I think the rich keep getting richer because they are smarter.

Matt


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

ruskent said:


> You do not need an education to 'make money'.
> 
> Yea if you have money its easier to make money. Being rich means something different to everyone.
> 
> ...


 The entrepreneur spirit is alive and well in you Matt. Keep it up.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

steve-in-kville said:


> If you've ever read the "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" series of books,


I know ... the title of this thread is a parody of that


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## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

ruskent said:


> You do not need an education to 'make money'.
> 
> Yea if you have money its easier to make money. Being rich means something different to everyone.
> 
> ...


You were on the right track until "because they are smarter". If "smarts" is a measure of someones IQ then I beg to differ. The rich get richer because of attitude, desire, ambition, finding a groove for their skills, the list could go on forever. I know of several top money makers in this industry without college educations and some without high school educations. I also know a lot of people with high IQ's that are not rich and some that are poor.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

ruskent said:


> You do not need an education to 'make money'.
> 
> Yea if you have money its easier to make money. Being rich means something different to everyone.
> 
> ...


bingo!


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

I have a question for you Dirt, How cut and dry is doing pools? 

My husband and I were talking over things last night about which jobs we've made good money on. A $14,000 bathroom, that he and his partner (of the time) both walked away with $5,000 profit after only 10 days. A $10,000 rental kitchen that he walked away with $5,000 again after only 10 days. 

However, the big jobs that are so detailed and involved- look great in the portfolio, but not so great at all in the books. 

Thank god, I FINALLY talked him into focusing on the cut and dry baths and rental kitchens. :thumbsup:


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

dougchips said:


> You were on the right track until "because they are smarter". If "smarts" is a measure of someones IQ then I beg to differ. The rich get richer because of attitude, desire, ambition, finding a groove for their skills, the list could go on forever. I know of several top money makers in this industry without college educations and some without high school educations. I also know a lot of people with high IQ's that are not rich and some that are poor.


bingo, too

i didn't see the smarts thing.


Look at Forrest Gump! He was retarded and got reel rich

oh, i meant to say "mentally disabled"


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Melissa said:


> I have a question for you Dirt, How cut and dry is doing pools?
> 
> My husband and I were talking over things last night about which jobs we've made good money on. A $14,000 bathroom, that he and his partner (of the time) both walked away with $5,000 profit after only 10 days. A $10,000 rental kitchen that he walked away with $5,000 again after only 10 days.
> 
> ...



"cut and dry" as in financially lucrative?? or simplicity vs. complexity


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> "cut and dry" as in financially lucrative?? or simplicity vs. complexity


simplicity vs. complexity


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

Maybe complexity would be more profitable if it was priced right!!!

BTW Mellissa so that 14k job had 10k in profit. I assume that means after all matieral and job related cost and after subracting your overhead/operating cost they made 10k?

Matt


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

dougchips said:


> Melissa, we all are still learning! *The people that stop learning will stop earning.* Look at all the companies that used telemarketing for their only lead source and never LEARNED new methods of getting leads. Look at the companies that do not have web-sites or even an email account.
> 
> Learning=earning


Agreed. But what I meant was for us a lot of times my husband encounters stuff he's never done before and makes mistakes or it just takes longer, which is part of the reason some jobs aren't very profitable- also we don't know how to price for it. 

We installed some cabinets for a designer and asked him what the going rate is, he told us about $10,000. We about died laughing!!! It seemed so high. We charged $7,500, but it took so long to do, we couldn't believe it, and we'd never done it before, so split it with a friend who had- so in the learning stages, we're not making so much money.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

ruskent said:


> Maybe complexity would be more profitable if it was priced right!!!
> 
> BTW Mellissa so that 14k job had 10k in profit. I assume that means after all matieral and job related cost and after subracting your overhead/operating cost they made 10k?
> 
> Matt


That # didn't include overhead, but at the time, we didn't really have any overhead. no workers, no shop, the job was close by. it was a piece of cake. :thumbsup:


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Melissa said:


> simplicity vs. complexity



hmm .. im afraid to answer ... cuz everytime I say "wow, that was easy" ... I get another lesson 

don't think in terms of "simple" vs. "complex"

instead, think in terms of *"ok, this needs to be done ... how much time will it take to complete this ... and how much money will it take?"* (and a couple other relevant questions)
If you cannot answer those questions, then you find someone who can. 

It is not about being an expert. It's getting a job done (and your client wins --- and so do you)

If I have a project with a lot of detail ... I pick it apart ... and then ask the above question.


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## steve-in-kville (Aug 30, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> I know ... the title of this thread is a parody of that



I figured as much...:thumbsup: 

A lot of great posts so far. I agree with a lot of what's being said. Excellent thread topic!! 

steve


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

steve-in-kville said:


> I figured as much...:thumbsup:
> 
> A lot of great posts so far. I agree with a lot of what's being said. Excellent thread topic!!
> 
> steve


ok, just makin sure


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> hmm .. im afraid to answer ... cuz everytime I say "wow, that was easy" ... I get another lesson
> 
> don't think in terms of "simple" vs. "complex"
> 
> ...


Are you sure it's not about being an expert? I mean how can you price acurately if you've never done it before? We don't have someone that we can just call up and ask. 

For me, a cut and dry job would be not too difficult, the same thing time and time again, and hardly ever running into something unexpected. So, you know exactly how to price it, how long it will take, and you will get the exact outcome, time and time again. 

Our custom kitch and bath jobs are not cut and dry. We work on old houses, and you never know what you're going to get when you open up a wall. And right now we run into things we've never done before= moving a sprinkler system in a kitchen carefully so the fire dept didn't come rushing out. installing a disposal the designer picked out, and it's so frggin big and industrial, you have to move all the plumbing over so it will fit. getting a lava rock countertop shipped from god knows where and when it arrives, it's cracked, again delaying production, and so on.... 

That's why I think many times a contractor isn't poor because he's low balling or just doesn't feel like charging for his time (is an artist so to speak or not "thinking rich" or like he wants to win in this game), it's just a big learning process- and some trades are easier to learn then others.


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## donb1959 (Dec 9, 2004)

Great thread. This country was built on rugged individualism. Some of the richest folks in history were the founding Fathers of this country. Today we live in a victim mentality society. Everyone is a victim of something or the other. If folks would just take more responsibility for their lives, they would be amazed at what they could accomplish. I came from a working class family, my parents busted their asses all their lives, they either made it or not based on decisions they alone made. They never blamed anyone for their failures. And I can't remember many people getting credit for their success's.

That, among other things is why I am a firm believer that make it, or break it, it's all on you. Noone is to blame for anothers failure. Folks in this country need to cowboy up, and quit whining. We are the most privilaged country in the world. Yet, I fear that we are raising a generation of kids that for the most part expect that things are to be handed to them, the ideal of hard work and preserverance is for the most part lost.

Now back on topic. Yes we as contractors should be getting paid for our labor, overhead, time, matierials, and profit. I have been very slow for the past two months, many bids I have doubted my self on my price, tempted to give in to the "I really need this job" syndrome. But I stick to my guns because I know I desearve to make at the very least a good living if I'm going to be in business. So, I give my price, slow times or busy and let the chips fall where they may.

Again....great thread.:thumbsup:


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## camaroman2125 (Apr 13, 2006)

> The rich get richer because of attitude, desire, ambition, finding a groove for their skills, the list could go on forever. I know of several top money makers in this industry without college educations and some without high school educations.


There is a saying thats goes something like this

A successful person will do what a unsuccessful person won't do


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Melissa said:


> "other" as if you are Doug? :laughing:
> Nope. I'm not saying. It's not nice. :no: It's just a feelling I get from this person's posts.
> Will the "other female" on ContractorTalk please stand up?
> :whistling


yeah, all ladies stand up ---

this place is a daggon sausage party as it is


:lol: :lol:


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

Yes, please stand up and do a little dance will ya?


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> yeah, all ladies stand up ---
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol:


not you Doug --- sit back down:laughing: :laughing:


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## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> not you Doug --- sit back down:laughing: :laughing:



Busy reading the instructions on a box of tampons, someone said something about having the sticky thing going towards the panties last night--I don't want to mess it up. When my nail polish drys I will respond.


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## Debookkeeper (Jul 23, 2006)

Tampons come with instructions??? :blush: Finally I will know how to use one!! :notworthy


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

dougchips said:


> Busy reading the instructions on a box of tampons, someone said something about having the sticky thing going towards the panties last night--I don't want to mess it up. When my nail polish drys I will respond.


:laughing: :lol: :lol: :laughing: 


:notworthy


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## dumplin1078 (Feb 14, 2006)

Melissa said:


> I disagree (except for the last sentence). I think the rich get richer, because it takes money to make money. How can the poor ever get out of the vicious cycle that they're in? You need money for an education.... You need an education to make money..... ?????????


It doesn't take money to make money, nessessarily. I started with only a few hand tools. And "poor" is an attitude more than your financial condition. Being "poor" is no excuse for not having an education. There are all kinds of assistance for education. Besides, there are tons of people who have not had an education and make it big. Think about Dave Thomas ( founder of Wendy's). As long as someone thinks they will not get out of the viscous cycle they won't. Dave Ramsey says,"There's a great place to go when you're broke; TO WORK!" It's not about education, or already having money, it's about not accepting where you are now and doing something about it. That is the real problem with the "poor", most have lost hope and they don't see how truly easy it is to get out. Maybe easy is the wrong word because we all know that it is a lot of hard work, but that to me is easy compared to living a live of poverty. I came from that life and I would do anything to keep from going back.


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## dumplin1078 (Feb 14, 2006)

dougchips said:


> You were on the right track until "because they are smarter". If "smarts" is a measure of someones IQ then I beg to differ. The rich get richer because of attitude, desire, ambition, finding a groove for their skills, the list could go on forever. I know of several top money makers in this industry without college educations and some without high school educations. I also know a lot of people with high IQ's that are not rich and some that are poor.


Absolutely, I have a friend from high school who was an electronics genious. The electronics teacher begged him to go to college he said he could have gotten him in anywhere he wanted to go. On top of that he could draw anything. But he is a bum. He works at Jack's now flipping burgers. All because he has no incentive. :furious:


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## theworx (Dec 20, 2005)

in my opinion your financial position in life is must highly influenced by your outlooks. When we are talking about income those outlooks are specifically influenced by who you hang around with. This isn't my original thought but it goes something like _if you want to predict a man's income, simply take the income of his 5 closest friends and average it and you will be within 10% almost everytime._

What that really means is who we have around us influences and in some cases limits our potential. Hang around with drug addicts and you're either a drug councilor or you're a drug addict yourself. Hang around a bunch of 'victims' of life and you're probably one too. So yeah, your financial position is influenced by your actions, but more importantly by your attitude. I see that most people in business if they aren't "in it to win it", they most likely just one day found themselves working for themselves instead of someone else, and that is more than good enough just in it's self for them.[/QUOTE]

A great post and beautifully stated Mike... I personally vote this the best post I've read all year. And like somebody else stated, you'll be taking Anthony Robbins' job before long (and I'm sure you've read all his books)  ...


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

What if you don't have any friends?


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## theworx (Dec 20, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> What if you don't have any friends?


Hey, That's my problem. I don't have anyone phoning me to get together, only calls from friends who want me to do work for them.


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