# Flue liner vs chimney cap



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

"Cap" is probably the wrong terminology, but I don't claim to be a mason. OTOH, I'm playing at it on the current job as a helper. We're building a double-flue CMU chimney (fireplace and furnace) with a stone veneer, and the top is probably going to be 30'+ above the fireplace floor. Even more above the furnace in the basement.

We got to talking today about how those flue liners are going to expand vertically when heated, potentially a lot more than the surrounding block.

Typical chimney-top detail I'm used to seeing is concrete sloped downward from the flue to the surrounding block/brick/whatever. But while that slope will carry most rainwater away, if the flue moves vertically there's bound to be a bit of leakage.

Is that actually not too likely, an acceptable thing, or is there a practical way to make it bulletproof?


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

When weather is concerned bulletproof is hard to achieve. A cap is a good way to protect the crown ( the sloped part) and the flue from rain and snow...generally the cap is set 8"-12" above the crown depending on flue size.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

When you say liner do you mean a clay flue or a stainless liner? I'm assuming clay flue. 

Also you can use a chimney pot to protect the flue. Superior Clay has a nice selection.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Pan flashed concrete crowns need expansion built in to accommodate this movement. Simple detail - see if I can find some pics. Basically, one inch clearance all the way up, then step it down to 1/4"-3/8" at the crown for the caulk joint.

Overhang that puppy 2" with a relief cut - pour 3-4" thick and throw some reinforcement in there. 

Bullet proof :thumbsup:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Sorry, clay liner. I've seen pics of chimney pots, but never looked into their actual functionality.

Superseal, I'm intrigued by your description. Pics would be most appreciated. :thumbsup:

This is a relatively high-end house, and a lot of new ground on many fronts for everyone involved. We want to get it right.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Here's one...or, you could get a lil' fancy too!


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

couple more...in the last shot, I'm having stainless made up for replacement vs. the galvy. This is only 12/13 years old :sad:

Another bullet proof cap/crown system when done right:thumbsup:


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

This link is pretty good. 

http://www.maconline.org/tech/construction/chimney/chimney.html


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

superseal said:


> Here's one...or, you could get a lil' fancy too!


Nice work super. Did you prefab the crown/cap on the ground? One of the pics looks like it is set on a table. What did you do for the shell?

Funny, the project I'm on now is a 110 year old home and we are repointing all the joints and rebuilding the crown and cap on three stone chimneys. Someone put bluestone caps that only cover the flue openings so water has damaged the crown and flues. I fabricated new caps out of concrete and the supports will be one piece granite split from reclaimed curbing. I would have done chimney pots but the flue openings are all different so it would have looked strange.

Tin, you could look into copper caps too. There are a number of company's online and the prices aren't to bad considering that they are custom made. I looked into this option for the above mentioned chimneys but the HO wanted caps. Copper is hard to beat for a high end finish and you don't really need to be a mason to install them.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

Hope this helps Tin...............


http://rumford.com/chimneys/cap.html


The only problem I see with this diagram is that the flue should obviously stick above the cap 6"+.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

This is technically the proper way to build the crown on a chimney. I dont do it, never have met anyone who does it like this, but here ya go.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> We're building a double-flue CMU chimney (fireplace and furnace) with a stone veneer,


WHERE ARE THE WALL TIES!!!!!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Do alot of you all use 8" block in that situation? Ive always used double 4" solids, at least till the flue is on.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JBM said:


> This is technically the proper way to build the crown on a chimney. I dont do it, never have met anyone who does it like this, but here ya go.


Looks like superseal has built a couple!

I would hesitate to consider it bulletproof only because to me, it implies that once finished, you never have to deal with it again. Without a cap covering the crown and flue, a harsh climate like in New England, tiny cracks in the concrete will worsen over time. Regular maintenance (duh) will preserve the work for a long, long time.

Maybe crowns arent done this way regularly is because it is hard to to a nice clean job like superseal.


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## Nac (Apr 16, 2006)

You can just add one of these


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

or these...high end!!


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

stonecutter said:


> Nice work super. Did you prefab the crown/cap on the ground? One of the pics looks like it is set on a table. What did you do for the shell?
> 
> Funny, the project I'm on now is a 110 year old home and we are repointing all the joints and rebuilding the crown and cap on three stone chimneys. Someone put bluestone caps that only cover the flue openings so water has damaged the crown and flues. I fabricated new caps out of concrete and the supports will be one piece granite split from reclaimed curbing. I would have done chimney pots but the flue openings are all different so it would have looked strange.
> 
> Tin, you could look into copper caps too. There are a number of company's online and the prices aren't to bad considering that they are custom made. I looked into this option for the above mentioned chimneys but the HO wanted caps. Copper is hard to beat for a high end finish and you don't really need to be a mason to install them.


Pics please, or we don't believe you :whistling :laughing:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

stonecutter said:


> Maybe crowns arent done this way regularly is because it is hard to to a nice clean job like superseal.




How many half days of work are you willing to loose to strip a form?


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

stonecutter said:


> Nice work super. Did you prefab the crown/cap on the ground? One of the pics looks like it is set on a table. What did you do for the shell?


You mean this one?...Na, just sweat equity going on here.

Originally an Ann Capron design, this chimney failed miserably after 15 years and needed re-building.

Since I have a long history with this 52 home private neighorhood...and am a preferred vendor of service work :whistling, I was awarded the contract :clap:

Actually over the years I've had to restore most of these style chimneys due to bad material and workmanship and each home has 3 to 4 of these style stacks. Some differ slightly and others are completely different. 

One rule remains the same though...They must retain the same color and style as originally designed or they kick you out :laughing:...not really, but they want them the same. 

Here's a few more shots...and I'll try to defend my scaffold setup :laughing:

PS.Tin, sorry if I'm high jacking, but I do feel this photo selection shows the importance of proper crowns or lack there of...and some of the problems associated them. Please don't kick me out :laughing:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

cont...


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

couple more...


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

stonecutter said:


> Looks like superseal has built a couple!
> 
> I would hesitate to consider it bulletproof only because to me, it implies that once finished, you never have to deal with it again. Without a cap covering the crown and flue, a harsh climate like in New England, tiny cracks in the concrete will worsen over time. Regular maintenance (duh) will preserve the work for a long, long time.
> 
> Maybe crowns arent done this way regularly is because it is hard to to a nice clean job like superseal.


Well that's a lil' extreme there stone, don't ya think... even bullet proof vests need care and replacement after awhile :laughing:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

JBM said:


> WHERE ARE THE WALL TIES!!!!!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing:


They're on the back side. :shifty:

Wow, you guys took off and ran with this while I was humping block. Thanks much for all the ideas.

The house is going to be clad inside and out with a half-log finish, so some just wouldn't fit--and I'm new/low man on this job, so I don't have much input. But this thread is going to be referenced. :thumbsup:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

superseal said:


> PS.Tin, sorry if I'm high jacking, but I do feel this photo selection shows the importance of proper crowns or lack there of...and some of the problems associated them. Please don't kick me out :laughing:


Not hijacking at all, I love it. Got tied up on the phone or I would have said so sooner. Great stuff; thanks. :thumbsup:


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Another nice job superseal. Really proffessional.

I ran into 3 chimneys this week that need new crowns and pointing. I understand exactly what needs to be done but I have never done one. I cant even find a good mason that want to be bothered with repointing or crowns.

Any local CT members want some referral work from me?


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

I'd take ya up in a minute Tom! Theres good money in those smaller jobs if you bid them right. 

Our town now has a new code that you have to have a poured cap on your chimney. Many guys were just putting a wash on it, and many of them were just using mortar! You get up there and they're all cracked to hell. 

When I put a cap on I will frame with 2x4 around the chimney, 1x6 screwed to the 2x4, and pound some line pins into the mortar joints to hold it up. Or prop up scrap 2x4 to keep the framework up. 

I pour caps a minimum 4" at the edge and crown it up to the flue. The flue I will usually wrap a single time with tar paper.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Tom M said:


> Another nice job superseal. Really proffessional.
> 
> I ran into 3 chimneys this week that need new crowns and pointing. I understand exactly what needs to be done but I have never done one. I cant even find a good mason that want to be bothered with repointing or crowns.
> 
> Any local CT members want some referral work from me?


Thanks for the complement Tom...Sometimes it feels like that's the only thing where working for these days with pricing power out the window. Less of course if your pulling stimulus monies :no:

I'm only one state over and used to venture south a bit...where exactly are ya?


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

6stringmason said:


> I'd take ya up in a minute Tom! Theres good money in those smaller jobs if you bid them right.
> 
> *Our town now has a new code that you have to have a poured cap on **your chimney.* Many guys were just putting a wash on it, and many of them were just using mortar! You get up there and they're all cracked to hell.
> 
> ...


Wow, seems just wrong based on the endless design features you find in chimneys, and the fact they just don't go with every house. Gonna need a $$$ variance meeting every time this problem comes up?


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

See if I can find some more Capron designs in my files...
What do ya know! :laughing:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

cont...


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

JBM said:


> How many half days of work are you willing to loose to strip a form?


None..but that's why I don't do crowns like this. Though I don't think anyone stripping a form does it for free,so who cares...its part of the job.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Tinstaafl said:


> They're on the back side. :shifty:
> 
> Wow, you guys took off and ran with this while I was humping block. Thanks much for all the ideas.
> 
> The house is going to be clad inside and out with a half-log finish, so some just wouldn't fit--and I'm new/low man on this job, so I don't have much input. But this thread is going to be referenced. :thumbsup:


In that case a nice stone cap would look great.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

superseal said:


> Well that's a lil' extreme there stone, don't ya think... even bullet proof vests need care and replacement after awhile :laughing:


LMAO...hey its you're comparison. I just mean cement has certain limitations that don't make it bulletproof to weathering. :whistling.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

superseal said:


> Pics please, or we don't believe you :whistling :laughing:


So what are you sayin? 

Its really not a work of art project more functional...but ill post some when I get a chance.:laughing:


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

superseal said:


> Thanks for the complement Tom...Sometimes it feels like that's the only thing where working for these days with pricing power out the window. Less of course if your pulling stimulus monies :no:
> 
> I'm only one state over and used to venture south a bit...where exactly are ya?


Yes Im in the same boat. My clients call me for everything so its great to have something always to do but hard to earn business money doing small jobs.

Anyway Bergen county is 10 minutes from Manhattan.


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Man, when I see pics of cool workmanship like in this thread.... I just have to chime in and say wow. Some impressive looking chimney "caps" hey Tin? Makes my little metal cap look like it came from Walmart. Sigh....

Very nice work SS :thumbsup:


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## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

> ...and I'll try to defend my scaffold setup


Well I can't say I haven't built a roof scaffold that's similar 
We used to plank it out at least 4 wide though. What you can do so you don't have to use that funny ladder set up is slide a plank up the roof till it butts up to your foot plank resting on the ridge. Nail down though the footplank. This is just to keepthe plank from sliding down the roof. Then measure and cut a vertical support at the end of your footplank. toenail and secure with blocking. This end support would have an X brace made of ferring strip or whatever. If needed we'd build a pipe scaffold right on this 

Yeah this was years ago but we'd install a safety rail and never had any problems. It is pretty strong with no nails in the roof which I see was accomplished with your set-up too.
Dave


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

stonecutter said:


> In that case a nice stone cap would look great.


Inspirational pics will be rewarded with... uh, thanks. :laughing:



CompleteW&D said:


> Some impressive looking chimney "caps" hey Tin?


Durn tootin'. I'm just tickled that folks here are willing to share the designs. :thumbsup:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Never did say if the veneer is stopping on the interior?

You going stone up top or CMU?

opens a whole new world :laughing:


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## Willy is (May 20, 2010)

Superseal, as much as I enjoy seeing the first class work, I *really* like seeing the scaffold and ladder setups. It reminds me of some of mine, but the ladders leaning against the chimney even made me wince _just a little_. : )

It takes some creativity to get to some of these places. 
Man; some of those have to have some extra $$$ the e***xxtra work and for it possibly being your last day of work........ added on to the bill. 

It ain't like walking on a flat ranch.

I thought I was nuts. All I could do on top of those ladders in post 29 would be to bungee cord myself to the chimney and cry *mommy*! I could see throwing myself off; but working?!? I think I'd want a little more platform. : )

willy


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

superseal said:


> Never did say if the veneer is stopping on the interior?


Exterior will be veneer also; HO hasn't decided if he wants the same stone as inside.

Agreed that scaffolding setups are always interesting. Got any pics of chimneybrellas to ward off rain showers while working? :laughing:


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

A little off topic but the ladder and scaffold talk reminded me of a buddy of mine.

We used to do a ton of siding in new developements and he had a 40 ladder in the bed of his truck to reach the upper end of this chimney and he froze....just froze. Literally had to get the firedept there with a bucket loader.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I here ya Will...In my early days this is how we were taught. No room for fear.

Things are different today with safety being paramount :thumbup: 

Still though, some get a little hairy


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

superseal said:


> I here ya Will...In my early days this is how we were taught. No room for fear.
> 
> Things are different today with safety being paramount :thumbup:
> 
> Still though, some get a little hairy


Lol at least u have your dust mask on :whistling


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> Exterior will be veneer also; HO hasn't decided if he wants the same stone as inside.


What looks nice on a stone chimney is bluestone on the cap with a rock face, 2"+ overhang. Then have some bluestone columns made up with a thermal face on 4 sides, stepped in 2". Then another bluestone cap on top of that with a rock face plumb with the stone below it. The "lumpier" the stonework the larger the bluestone needs to be....

The holes for the flues would have to be cut by the mason or at the yard out of the first piece.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

Ok SS, heres a pic of the chimneys I am working on. Complete repoint, new caps, crown and flashing. We were able to work on the two wide chimneys off the shed dormer but the one on the right will be off a 60ft straight boom lift, not as cool as sketchy staging.:laughing: These stone chimneys are not work of art and havent been maintained in 20 years. 

Tin, take note of the undersized caps. DO NOT DO THIS!!:no: I couldnt believe someone took the time to do them like this.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Exterior will be veneer also; HO hasn't decided if he wants the same stone as inside.
> 
> Agreed that scaffolding setups are always interesting. *Got any pics of chimneybrellas to ward off rain showers while working? :laughing*:


You asked for it Tin!...:laughing:

Scaffold is easy to cover - just throw another section up and tarp off.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

OK, this one is a tad safer...but you better be skinny! and rest in peace Joey Reese - an old employee who was a first class person and Vietnam Veteran. Did two tours in the jungle and passed from cancer a few years back.

No nails in the roof if possible please :whistling


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Man, I actually have done lots of chimneys :laughing:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

superseal said:


> You asked for it Tin!...:laughing:


And I got it. :thumbsup: :laughing:

Hey, do you have a favorite stone supplier within striking distance of Harrisburg? The HO is looking for places.

I'm eating this stuff up guys, keep it coming. Have a couple of pics to post, but am spending the evening (and then some) fighting with a recalcitrant well pump installation in my own house.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Most of my stone comes from local sources like Media quarry and Galantino. Stone is heavy, closer is better, metaphysically speaking of course.

Although I had this patio and memorial project shipped in from Tompkins out of Hancock, NY. Love their Blue stone :thumbup:


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Man.... I just GOTTA say it again.... _*magnificent work*_ SS....


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

This is our local PA high/low rise Mica that's quarried around the corner here in Media, PA. 

Don't laugh...this was one of my first projects when I got out of school.

Owner wanted it to match existing stone work on house CAPossible and was the local police chief. Needless to say, I was nervous about taking it and then they signed the contract :blink:

Ahhh.... the good old days!


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Whatever materials they choose just be sure the scaffold your building is safe and secure on par with your comfort zone...nothing like shaking at the knees if u don't have too :laughing:

couple more for ya :thumbsup:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Just tell me to stop when your sick of me :laughing:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I think I'm sick of me:balloon::laughing:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

superseal said:


> Whatever materials they choose just be sure the scaffold your building is safe and secure on par with your comfort zone...nothing like shaking at the knees if u don't have too :laughing:


And to think I was impressed with myself for standing on this ladder to set a ridge beam on one of my earlier jobs.

You going for Loneframer's King of the Pics title? :laughing:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Funny you should say, but I have photos going back 33 years when I laid my first brick at the ripe old age of thirteen. Off course I was whittling wood by eight :whistling

Highly doubt I'll ever catch up to Lone :laughing:

BTW...I missed a spot - mind grabbing it for me :laughing:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

superseal said:


> BTW...I missed a spot - mind grabbing it for me :laughing:


Gnarng. I'll pass. :no:


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## lukachuki (Feb 11, 2005)

Pictures are always cool. Especially cool pictures. So keep posting.


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