# How to get rid of unlicensed hacks



## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

If the cost is that LOW to be licensed (as being claimed) then how are you being underbid?

I get underbid all the time. I'm not licensed.

Realtor called me last week to demo an old garage. Wanted it done during weekend and in a hurry. All to avoid code enforcement. I bid $1500/labor + you rent 3 dumpsters. Will be done in 24 hrs. 3 others bid same amount. 1 guy bid $25 less than me. And the winning bid was $400 all inclusive.

Personally, I set aside 25% for taxes and yes, I do file taxes and keep receipts.

Alot of times we illegals take the work you legals dont even want. I know, I used to try to sub it out when I first started rehabbing rentals. I finally got tired of the prima donna's and got people that want to work.

The stereotype works both ways, my friends. People HAVE to live somewhere. 

The first words I say to a new client is that I am unlicensed, and if that's a problem I am fine with that. I will be glad to refer you to a licensed guy. I also reassure them that to show good faith, I only ask they purchase materials. Pay me for labor only after you are happy with my work.


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

mrcharles said:


> In Michigan you have had to take an exam to qualify for your license.
> 
> In the last 4 years they have implemented pre-test classes. These on the cheap end cost about 1200.
> 
> It still does not ensure quality, but it helps weed out some of the guys who don'y carry insurance, and pay taxes, and so on.


Mr. Charles let me tell you how that works here in Fla. You pay close to $2000 and go to class for I think 2 weeks (not sure about the time) and they guarantee you will pass the GC test. What they do is pay people to go take the test and bring back the questions. Your whole class consists of them showing you where to look for the answers since it is an open book test. You can pass this test, in fact they guarantee it, and you don't even have to know whice end of the hammer to hold. I have worked with A couple GC's that could not read a tape measure. Their answer " I don't have to know I hire people for that." I am not saying license is a bad thing but I think it should be based on skill and experience and there should be upgrades or maybe refresher courses to update these skills.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

ToolNut said:


> What if there were no license period. You had to work solely on your reputation, word of mouth. If you do poor work people stop calling you. You do great work you stay busy. Soon the guys that do poor work are gone and the others get bigger. If this were to happen would your work habits change? Would you supervise your employees differently? Would you talk to your customers different and go more out of your way to please them? Just my opinion but licensing is nothing more than a cash cow for the state in most cases having a license not guarantee quality work, but it does give credibility to people who have not earned it. If the states were serious someone who rips people off till they get so many lawsuits then go out of business and open up 2 weeks later under another name using the same license would be stopped. If you don't believe this when is the last time you heard of someone's license being pulled.
> RANT OVER fire away!


It happens all the time. Many plumbers get the licensed pulled in Wisconsin. That is a very real threat. We are very regulated here.

I disagree with you on licensing and reputation. Sure, word of mouth and reputation is a big deal especially with my own business but many many many customers simply don't get the reputation delivered and that's why we advertise. 

I can take a crappy contractor and set him up with a solid marketing campaign and in 4 months he would have a thriving business. That is a fact. That is how powerful marketing is.

Carpenters make a poor wage and if they had had strict licensing that was enforced and the barriers to entry were difficult you would see wages rise. That's why I can bill out @ $125 while my buddy the carpenter bills out at $40. 

To get into plumbing is not easy. You have to be on the buddy plan and them get approved for an apprenticeship. They intentionally keep the approvals low. Sprinkler fittters, steamfitters and elevator mechanics are the same thing. Supply and demand.

When we had boom times the sprinkler fitters refused to hire. That was a smart move. They simply told GC's tough schit, you can wait until we show up and they had no choice. Boom times are over and guess what? Sprinkler fitters are doing just fine thanks to supply and demand and licensing.

If the cost was $8000 to be a licensed carpenter you wouldn't see every Tom Dick and Harry with a hammer and a 89 Chevy truck ponding on studs I promise you that. Instead, for $50 and some business cards everybody can be a carpenter.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

At the end of the day $$$ talks bull shiat walks. Consumers can sue for bad/incomplete work. And they do.

I should get insurance for crappy work? In case something is wrong with my work? 

I'll just stand by my work. Thats why my customers don't pay until job is complete. And I make everyone that works alongside me sign an injury waiver. They know they don't get paid until I do. This promotes teamwork as it in everyones interest to see the job done in a timely manner. 

Somtimes that means I dont get paid weekly.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

ToolNut said:


> Mr. Charles let me tell you how that works here in Fla. You pay close to $2000 and go to class for I think 2 weeks (not sure about the time) and they guarantee you will pass the GC test. What they do is pay people to go take the test and bring back the questions. Your whole class consists of them showing you where to look for the answers since it is an open book test. You can pass this test, in fact they guarantee it, and you don't even have to know whice end of the hammer to hold. I have worked with A couple GC's that could not read a tape measure. Their answer " I don't have to know I hire people for that." I am not saying license is a bad thing but I think it should be based on skill and experience and there should be upgrades or maybe refresher courses to update these skills.



My dad has his Florida license, and it is a very grueling and expensive exam. The classes that guarantee passing are fine, but I'm sure you will find people who have taken the classes and still failed the exam. 

I have lived in Florida during bad hurricanes, and I have seen how important quality building is there. There were and are still a lot of guys doing below par quality jobs there, that are actually posing serious safety concerns. 

Anyone who lives in a state with licensing requirement and is not licensed and takes prime contracts is breaking the law hurting the industry as a whole. Plain and simple.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

Driftweed said:


> At the end of the day $$$ talks bull shiat walks. Consumers can sue for bad/incomplete work. And they do.
> 
> I should get insurance for crappy work? In case something is wrong with my work?
> 
> ...



Why are you letting your customers dictate your price? Your thinking is if I don't get this job because of price someone else will.... This is true, but at what cost. You are just continuing to drive the market to the bottom. Sure you have to eat, but we wont improve things till people play by the rules and the majority of us stick to our guns and hold out for the prices we deserve.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

Licensing aside...

Every industry has hacks and cheaper competition.

-Best Buy repairs computers using trained technicians. Joe on Smith street took an online class and watched Youtube videos and repairs them after work for $20.

-Vistaprint sells business cards and marketing merchandise. So does Suzzy who bought an old embroidery machine and learned photoshop, only she does it at 1/4 of the cost.

-Carmax sells used vehicles. Jay is friends with the manager at an auction house and gets to buy them at the highest bid, than sell them for cash.

See where I'm going with this? Hell in the most basic sense a community yard sale could be hacking off of Wal-Mart. It is taking business away from a legitimate (debatable) corporation for a cheaper price right?

There will always be hacks in every industry, some good and misinformed, some bad and inbred. They always go down eventually, but for every two that fall out, four more will get back up.

No matter how much, or how little Government intervention we have, there will always be people who fly under the radar at a cheaper rate. 

We can either spend our time trying to figure out ways to stop them, or spend our time finding those who value us as a business and are willing to pay a premium for what we have to offer.

I shall choose that latter.


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

The license I'm referring to is a basic GC you can"t do anything over 2 stories and I don"t think anything commercial. And don't get me wrong there are a ton of people doing quality work above and beyond. But I don't think it is because of a license. I think it is because they care, and their reputation is important to them. I don't think these peoples work would change if they didn't have a license because of who they are. And no they pretty much get everyone passed for the test they are not going to give back the $2000 very often. In fact they advertise 98% pass. Guys honest I'm not trying to start a fight. There are some trades that need to be licensed elec. plumbing, and HVAC come to mind. But these trades should also be monitored and some sort of cont. ed. because with todays tech you have to keep up or get left out. I guess what I'm saying is a license doesn't insure quality or safety or knowledge.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Seems everyone's missing the point with this. It's clear license or no license makes no difference to quality of work. The issue is why don't they have a license when it's required. The majority of contractors I know who do crap work are unlicensed. There a few who I know who are licensed yet do crap work. The unlicensed guys don't pull permits, they done have valid insurance, they more than likely don't pay taxes either. If a contractor can't be bothered to get his $80 license then where is is this guy willing to cut corners? He willing to risk his lively hood due to no insurance and he willing to have his work pulled down because of no permitting. This means if the HO has a deck built and it falls on the customer the contractor has no insurance or the deck don't fall down and the county inspector says it has to come down because they didn't apply for a permit. That's exactly how hacks run a business. Now if that unlicensed guy tells the customer they are not insured, licensed and the work might be stopped or even worse told to remove and the customer goes for it still then that's upto them but when the contractors say nothing and let the HO assume they attend fully legit then these guys are hacks. Thats why licensed professional contracts don't like the unlicensed. Obviously if your state don't require licenses then your all on equal playing field.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

ToolNut said:


> The license I'm referring to is a basic GC you can"t do anything over 2 stories and I don"t think anything commercial. And don't get me wrong there are a ton of people doing quality work above and beyond. But I don't think it is because of a license. I think it is because they care, and their reputation is important to them. I don't think these peoples work would change if they didn't have a license because of who they are. And no they pretty much get everyone passed for the test they are not going to give back the $2000 very often. In fact they advertise 98% pass. Guys honest I'm not trying to start a fight. There are some trades that need to be licensed elec. plumbing, and HVAC come to mind. But these trades should also be monitored and some sort of cont. ed. because with todays tech you have to keep up or get left out. I guess what I'm saying is a license doesn't insure quality or safety or knowledge.



I bet when the T.V. infomercial said "money back guarantee" you believed them too.

The Florida exam takes 16 hours and is spread over two days. Once you receive the license (passing the exam does not qualify you, you have to pass the exam, start a corporation, pass a credit check, and get insurance) you can only build single family 1 level homes for you first year. 

How can you feel structural work does not need to be licensed? If some guy is out there putting in 2x4 retrofit headers because he has never seen a code book and that's how he learned from the unlicensed guy he worked for there are serious safety issues. The license is not fool proof, but it does represent a basic knowledge of code implication, as well as business practice. 

I don't think there is anyone out there that thinks they are a hack, just as I don't think there is anyone out there that would describe them self as unethical. But the reality is if you don't have any guidelines set for checking your work and business how do you know if you are doing everything correct or not. 

My largest concern with unlicensed guys after safety, is not properly knowing how to run a business and driving rates straight to the bottom.


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

A good inspection by a good inspector can weed out the hacks and discourage DIYer from doing things they should not tackle.

I just had a oversize sliding door installed (second one in a year) by Renewal by Andersen. The installation was done by a certified (National Association of Manufacturers?) installer that is a contractor that only works for Andersen (doors only - 700 to 800/year).

The inspection was scheduled by Andersen and they called the city the next day to see if everything was OK, but the city said the inspection was not done because a clerk gave the inspector the wrong address. The inspector showed up early the next dayand cleared everything including the required smoke detectors in every bedroom (do on the earlier install).

The inspector was happy because he had little to look at because Andersen is tougher on the installer than the inspector if there is a problem. The inspection took only 5 minutes. I asked him about inspecting and he said the easy ones are the jobs done by pros and hacks. The pros take little time and the hacks are easy to spot and they post a red flag quickly. The city requires smoke detectors as a way to makes sure every home has them in bedrooms (included in the normal bids by good companies), but hacks do not know it and very so often, they are obviously missed and trigger a red flag as incompetence and a way to install good work by reputable contractors/subcontractors.

The DIYers are bigger problems for the inspectors because of the poor work and lack of knowledge. Plus, they do get turned in by neighbors that want to maintain a reasonable standard of quality (townhouses/quads, etc.) to preserve property values. The additional problem is that the DIYers take more time and are tax payers that pay the inspectors salary.

Even though inspectors and codes can be a problem, they are also good for reputable contractors, even if they can be an occasional PITA if things are not going good.

When the inspector was checking out the smoke detectors, he spotted out some capped wires sticking out of the ceiling where I was replacing a light fixture. His comment was "Good to see the wires capped. We do not look for problems if it is not a critical item becasuse it causes problems and hassels". No mention of anything else in the 5 minute inspection.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

But a lot of these fly by night guys and property preservation guys and unlicensed guys are not pulling permits.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

And don't forget, some states don't require a license, like mine. I am technically an unlicensed business. 

We make a joke that hair dressers need a license, but structural design....nope.


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

Kent Whitten said:


> And don't forget, some states don't require a license, like mine. I am technically an unlicensed business.
> 
> We make a joke that hair dressers need a license, but structural design....nope.


With that in mind, are you in favor in establishing licensing requirements in Maine? Please provide your reasoning for or against.


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

I have worked for contractors and old schooled carpenters all my life. Some were big outfits and some were under the table paying non insured hacks in every sense of the word. 

The issue here is not how much experience or insurance you have or how much tax you pay but what your work ethics are. 
When I first went out on my own, before I took the state GC exam and was licensed, I pulled in little side jobs and builds to make my living. As my jobs grew I realized for my company to grow into what I wanted it to be, I needed to be running a legitimate business. That meant license, eventually insurance, advertisment, also a professinal reflection of how I do business. 

I know some guys that are great carpenters as far as the work that they do. But the first thing they break out is the cooler of beer and the boom box while the boss rolls up a fat one. 

Thats not the image I want my company to have.
I also know of some professional looking nice lettered trucks with the whole utility bed and ladder rack deal going on that I wouldn't let build me a dog house because they just do sorry work.

Me, I run a small gig with one sometimes two employees. I still put my bags on every day and sweat and bleed right along beside them. Because my overhead is considerably smaller than a company with 8 or 10 crews and a fleet of trucks and equipment I can under bid them. 

I think the term should be professinal or ethical instead of hack. 
The biggest companies out there would be considered hacks if it came to light that they were not turning in taxable income or treating their empolyees in an unethical manner.


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## crissyissy (Sep 15, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> And licensing does not ensure quality work. Some of the greatest hackery is licenced and approved..


This is exactly true. I don't think it's just the unlicensed you should be after. It should be the lazy contractors that don't give a damn.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

It's when you categorize ALL unlicensed contractors hacks I take issue. Hacks know no boundaries.

It's like saying all foreigners MUST be here illegally, or ****** gets all the breaks, or black people are all thugs. It just makes YOU look dumber.

It's out there. I know it. I have developed thick skin and I just smile. It's like politics and religion. Nothing I am gonna say will change it. 

Just got off the phone with a licensed guy. He is insulating a pole barn and installing new walls. He saw my interior paint at same property and wants to sub out painting the barn to me (knowing I am unlicensed). Fine by me. 

As long as I make $15/hr + materials I am happy. My bills are paid, I'm not greedy. If you can get more then fine, rock on. 

Like I said, good work and ethics are what defines a hack. 

If you go into a $30k house, dont think for one second you are going to make $10k to floor and paint it. That's my market. 

My investor from Cali was telling me how happy he was to find someone willing to do a 6 (on a scale 1-10) on his houses. Although he has seen I can do better.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

@ Driftweed

Tell me, what is the cost of a license for you?

Can you just answer that? At $15 an hour I can see why the $100 bothers you.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Did I just read a "business owner" is happy about $15 an hour? My wife works part time as a bank teller and makes more than that with full benefits!


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

Driftweed said:


> It's when you categorize ALL unlicensed contractors hacks I take issue. Hacks know no boundaries.
> 
> It's like saying all foreigners MUST be here illegally, or ****** gets all the breaks, or black people are all thugs. It just makes YOU look dumber.
> 
> ...



That's the issue us licensed people have. I do paint also but i can not work for $15hr and make enough money to run a legit business. If i didnt have insurance and pay tax then i might just be able to scrape by and pay my bills but have nothing left as profit which of course would be silly to do as i can make $15hr working elsewhere then it would all be in my pocket and not paying business expenses.

Explain to me how you would cover the cost of your ladder falling over damaging something. You have no insurance so how exactly would you pay for the item you damage.


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## Oconomowoc (Oct 13, 2011)

Stephen H said:


> Bam,
> My point is that Driftweed could likely BE properly insured for an extremely nominal sum.
> his choice NOT to be insured is extremely poor decision making, because IF he was insured he could immediately begin charging more while simultaneously using the fact that he IS insured as a marketing point.
> 
> ...


He's not insured because he's in the middle of bankruptcy which would severely damage his ability to declare bankruptcy. 

He is intentionally trying to stay under the IRS radar to avoid being denied. He has to be off the radar for 6 months after the case is dissolved /closed. 

If the IRS becomes aware of his income, and not reporting it, he would be in jail. The people he owes money to would sue the daylights out of him.

What he doesn't realize is he CAN report it because $15 an hour is not only less than the max threshold for bankruptcy but it's considered poverty. They would probably offer him foods stamps. Lol


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Stephen - The whole licensing thing doesn't really bother me because there are absolutely no levels of requirement to start a roofing company around here. If you have the money to file the papers with the state, you can become a company within a few hours even without any experience and so fourth.

Of course any company wants to separate themselves from the rest. That is true in any type of business but I still believe there should be some type of higher level of entry and some sort of training that is required before you can start selling home improvements to customers. For an example that fits my point although it has nothing to do with construction - McDonalds and Burger King. Both sell burgers. Both are different from each other and market themselves differently but BOTH have the same regulations in which they need to follow.

In the end, I personally can't spend time focusing on this. I have a roof going on right down the road from me. Besides that it is being installed improperly, no harnesses are being used or anything else. This an every day occurrence and one I can't waste time getting involved with.

My being properly insured for roofing work often leaves me near the highest price although I may be profiting the same amount as the guy without insurance and not paying taxes although his quote was $1500 cheaper and that's why he got the job.

That's it really. If you are required to have insurance, have it. If you are required to have a license, have it. If you are required to pull a permit, pull it. It has nothing to do with being a "hack" or not but rather just playing by same rules as everyone else.


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## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

$15 an hour?! Wow with the cost of food, fuel and everything else that would basically pay for an apartment, cable, food and car insurance with nothing left.

If you dont want to own a home or nice things and deal with landlords that's fine but not how I want to live my life.

So you beat up your tools, your body, and your truck for 15 beans an hour? What about health insurance, paying into SS and your retirement?

$15 is ok for a J.O.B. (just over broke) but to get things in life no way.


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## hvactech_1 (Dec 15, 2012)

We are a license holding state here, I agree to find a way to stop hacks- they underbid by way of no license expense, no insurances- but the first time they damage the house they will find out- home owners insurance will deny the claim here if it wasn't done by a licensed professional


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

It seems odd to me that when the problem is some are outbidding you because they are unlicensed, which is a system set up by the government, that you think more government regulation will cure the problem. The answer would be get rid of the worthless regulations. Then there is no need to spend money trying to enforce laws and raising licensing fees even more in the process to cover the cost.


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## kambrooks (Apr 24, 2012)

LeeFowler said:


> It seems odd to me that when the problem is some are outbidding you because they are unlicensed, which is a system set up by the government, that you think more government regulation will cure the problem. The answer would be get rid of the worthless regulations. Then there is no need to spend money trying to enforce laws and raising licensing fees even more in the process to cover the cost.


My license was cheap 


Sorry


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## 5starbuilders (Jan 22, 2011)

The yearly license fees are nothing, the GL insurance not so bad, commercial insurance on the work trucks is doable . The workmens comp where I have to cough up 10 thousand, that almost makes me cry every time. I do have some overhead and pay employees legally , not under the table. This all adds up to bids that are more than the fly by night operation, that wins with a cheaper bid. One thing about my higher bids is that I ensure the quality of work is superb. I only get paid to do it once. I have had the opportunity to see some of the work that I was under bid on and I silently laugh at the shotty work and remind myself you get what you pay for.


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## 5starbuilders (Jan 22, 2011)

Sometimes when a home owner ask us to repair the fly buy night company's faulty work. I will tell them you paid enough to get someone in here to do something, but you didn't pay enough to have it done right, but be glad that those guys are off your property , cause if someone fell and broke a leg or cut thier arm off, They would be suing you the homeowner. That's one of the things you don't have to worry about with me. I have my ducks in arrow with that. And with what Bam said the profit margin was close to the same probably, just I was legal and doing things the correct way. for what it's worth running a legal buissness cost a bunch of money.


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

5starbuilders said:


> Sometimes when a home owner ask us to repair the fly buy night company's faulty work. I will tell them you paid enough to get someone in here to do something, but you didn't pay enough to have it done right, but be glad that those guys are off your property , cause if someone fell and broke a leg or cut thier arm off, They would be suing you the homeowner. That's one of the things you don't have to worry about with me. I have my ducks in arrow with that. And with what Bam said the profit margin was close to the same probably, just I was legal and doing things the correct way. for what it's worth running a legal buissness cost a bunch of money.


What do you tell them when they call you to fix a licensed contractors screw up?


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

ToolNut said:


> What do you tell them when they call you to fix a licensed contractors screw up?


That's impossible!!! I mean they have been sanctioned by the nanny state, how could they possibly mess up?


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## larryb (May 23, 2008)

"The hacks we shall always have with us" (unfortunately)


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

summithomeinc said:


> Truth is a piece of paper means nothing.


Try telling that to a Girl Friend who wants to be a wife.
Try telling that to a banker when applying for a loan.
Try telling that to the cop who stopped you for speeding, no license.
Try telling that to the bartender.

You seem to think that following the law is optional. I think guys who violate the licensing laws are, by definition, HACKS. Licensing is not all that difficult. It takes only minimal technical knowledge and minimal business and tax law knowledge. If you can't, or won't cut it, you're a hack.

What does a license really mean? For starters, it means you actually bothered to comply with the law. Second, it means that, to date, you have not had your license revoked for failing to perform up to code minimums (workmanlike manner).


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

thom said:


> What does a license really mean? For starters, it means you actually bothered to comply with the law. Second, it means that, to date, you have not had your license revoked for failing to perform up to code minimums (workmanlike manner).


It means none of those things. It means that some lobbied government to set up artificial barriers to entry so they would have less competition. It means that some had no confidence in others finding enough value in their work to hire them unless they could first create a false sense of confidence in themselves and bring up unjustified skepticism in others. The only hacks I know are those who so fear free market competition that they turn like spineless cowards to government for their hope. 

Now not all who are licensed agree with the rules, us for example but nor are those who aren't licensed hacks. Sad that so many laid down the basic right of any man to work so they could gain an advantage over their neighbor. What a bunch of hacks.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

LeeFowler said:


> It means none of those things. It means that some lobbied government to set up artificial barriers to entry so they would have less competition.


Those laws were in place here in NM 30 years ago when I moved here. There is a never ending series of people being cheated by builders. G got involved in response to the hacks. I wish we didn't have the laws but, in our society we really don't get to pick and choose what laws we will follow and which we will ignore. 

Well, you are the exception of course. You get to rob banks and cheat people at will.


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

thom said:


> Well, you are the exception of course. You get to rob banks and cheat people at will.


Yes because saying I disagree with you means I obviously look the other way when it comes to laws. 

A law being in effect 30 years doesn't make it right. It simply means there has been 30 years of intrusion. 

Speaking of NM I recently joined my wife for a residency interview in Las Cruces. The host home we stayed at had a half finished addition. The contractor hadnt been there in 6 weeks and kept giving her the run around. Now that you mention it, she must have been lying, I mean he pulled permits so surely he was licensed and therefor a stand up guy.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

realelectrician said:


> I am unlicensed but in my state of PA does not have a statewide license for electricians. Licensing requirements are determined by individual towns and townships. Most of the areas I work in don't have a license or a requirement. Most places that do you just pay a $50 or $100 fee show proof of insurance and your state HIC# and you are licensed. Major cities like Philly and Allentown have a test but I never work in the ghetto so I never took it.
> 
> I will be taking the Philly test soon just to stand out from the pack more.
> 
> Also the term "licensed" is confused by many especially homeowners. They think licensed means "certified" which it is not in most cases. A license in most cases is not about aptitude it's just a registration allowing you to do business in that area.



In my experience you are in the minority for electricians. Licensed electrician anytime I've ever heard it meant having qualifications, and taking tests etc.. Not for other trades but electricians and gas fitters generally need to be certified in my experience


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## summithomeinc (Jan 3, 2011)

summithomeinc said:


> So if Your state requires a license and mine doesn't ...That makes me a hack? or only if I do work in your state? Then I'm a hack? So a piece of paper makes me a hack?
> 
> There's too many threads here about "Hacks". Truth is a piece of paper means nothing. As long as the quality is there and the customer got a good value for their money that is all that should matter.


This is what I actually said. Anyone can take something out of context and make it seem to be whatever they would like.



thom said:


> Try telling that to a Girl Friend who wants to be a wife.
> Try telling that to a banker when applying for a loan.
> Try telling that to the cop who stopped you for speeding, no license.
> Try telling that to the bartender.
> ...


SO.......
A paper makes a man a better partner for his significant other?
A paper makes you more likely to be responsible for your debt?
A paper makes you less likely to speed, you are a safer driver?
A paper makes you more likely to consume alcohol responsibly?

As far as licenses go... That was my point. Here there is no license for what I do. Does that make me a hack just because your state does require a license?...Nevermind...just re read my original post..As long as the customer is satisfied and got a good value for there money who cares.

I say that there needs to be an official CT definition of the term "Hack".
I would say it is a person doing work they are incapable of doing safely.

I know many people who can change a light switch safely. Here it requires a license. So if they do it without a license are they a hack? I say NO. They are simply unlicensed. For those of you that are licensed...the day before you took your test, exam, or whatever it was to get your license, What magically happened to make you so much more competent after you had the license? I bet you were just as competent the day before as the day after.

So yeah, a piece of paper means jack **** to me.


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## ranteso (Nov 11, 2010)




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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

LeeFowler said:


> A law being in effect 30 years doesn't make it right. It simply means there has been 30 years of intrusion.
> 
> Speaking of NM I recently joined my wife for a residency interview in Las Cruces. The host home we stayed at had a half finished addition. The contractor hadnt been there in 6 weeks and kept giving her the run around. Now that you mention it, she must have been lying, I mean he pulled permits so surely he was licensed and therefor a stand up guy.


Licensing does not insure that the builder will do everything correctly or do it at all. The buyer must still properly vett the builder, it would appear that she may have failed to do that. 

As for licensing being "right" that is not my call. I don't get to pick and choose which laws to follow and which to ignore. Apparently you are special in that regard, you get to choose which laws to ignore. I bet you got participation trophies too. 

So, in a state that requires licensing (NM) you must provide W.C. but that requires a license number. We must charge sales tax and send it to the state monthly, again that requires a contractors license. 

Apparently you feel free to not provide workers with minimum coverage (W.C.) to engage in tax evasion (no sales tax), to fail to permit your jobs as required, ... I guess you're just special.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Summit, if no license is required, you then have all of the required licenses. 

The rest of your post is ???????????????

As for competence, part of the job is being properly licensed and insured (assuming those are required in your state). You cannot properly complete the job without completing all of the required tasks, including licensing, insurance, taxes, permits, and, actually installing the light switch. Your view of what makes a competent contractor is quite myopic.


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## Walter Secore (Jun 2, 2012)

I only think about hacking on Fridays after 4:00


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## Zewlander (Dec 18, 2012)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> The free market disqualifies incompetence naturally.


I'll do that filling for 1/2 the price of your dentist Matt.


:no:


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## Walter Secore (Jun 2, 2012)

I will do it for $3.00 less zewlander


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

And yet I am still going to hire the guy who did my last one..


Doctors should be licensed. Lawyers not so much.


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

Zewlander said:


> But what if the unlicensed (craigslist guy) installed the fire
> system in the school?
> 
> I know it's a stretch...but, people died?
> ...


It's not that much of a stretch. A few weeks ago a school in Atlanta was shut down. One day all the kiddos got sick from carbon monoxide. The weekend before to hvac service guys worked on a system and did something wrong. The school filled up with poisonous gas all weekend and the kids got sick on Monday morning. Fortunately no one died. However I happen to think there is a different standard in public places and private places. This means publicly funded, not private businesses that welcome the public. Either way the contractors were approved by the state.


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## Zewlander (Dec 18, 2012)

Walter Secore said:


> I will do it for $3.00 less zewlander


Whore


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Where?


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> In the other situation (contracting) there are two individuals choosing to freely trade. Frankly it's none of your business who individuals trade with.


I'd like to get into the import export business, preferably with colombia, mexico, russia. So Im taking it so far from your posts you don't like permits, taxes, licenses, fees and or regulations of any kind. How's that going so far? I know it didn't work out so well for Haiti..


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

My state leaves the licensing requirements to the locals. My area of this state has very limited licensing requirements. If this were to change I would obtain the licenses as required, mainly because of the sales leverage. But I would lobby to prevent this from happening.

One thing the state does require is a contract with some specific clauses with the thought of protecting the consumer in mind. We are free to add other clauses to protect the contractor as we like. (Provided it does not negate the state's requirements.)

We have been using the state requirements in our contracts for a number of years. Previously I was a hack as defined by some here. Being in the business for over 31 years, probably a hack more than a "pro".

I have yet to meet another contractor in my area that uses a contract containing the state required language. I went to court once, on behalf of a client, and our contract was offered as evidence. My clients attorney reports that in his 30 years ours was the first he had seen that meets the requirements. 

So, apparently I am a lone wolf living and working in the midst of a pack of hacks. I can tell you that some of them produce some very fine results that benefit the consumer and themselves. Some work for more, some less, than my company.

There are also a number of contractors that work for cash only, have no insurances and very limited overhead that work for considerably less. I've accepted that there are customers for this group and they are different than the clients that will hire myself and some of the "hacks". Coincedentaly there is normally a difference regarding the quality of work performed and the level of customer service. 

There is also a likelihood that one group has more consumer complaints than the other and one group is more likely to reach an amicable resolution of such complaints.

Feel free to lead the fight to get rid of hacks if you like. You have a better chance of lassoing the moon from the empire state building.

Good Luck
Dave


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

barry1219 said:


> 2) Not a one of us ever started to work completely legal..I mean no one opened a company in the construction industry without swinging a hammer on weekends or after the code enforcers went home for the day. We, speaking for myself, found a path to legal business..some more quickly..lol after we realized we could make it.


*
Absolutely, positively, WRONG!!!*

I started as a builder in Illinois, no licensing required, I had WC (required) prior to doing a single job. Never did a side job in my life, how could I, I own the company. 

Prior to moving to New Mexico, I visited, talked to Construction Industries, determined the requirements, then followed them. I flew from Chicago to Albuquerque to take the tests, everything was completed prior to moving to New Mexico except Workmens Comp. I bought WC and finalized my licensing prior to doing that first job.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

LeeFowler said:


> I have more respect for those who skirt laws that I think are ridiculous then I do for those who gleefully call for getting rid of "hacks" in the market.


And I know a guy who thinks laws against raping kids are ridiculous, I guess you support him doing what he wishes too. 

The point is, in a world where we pick and choose which laws to follow and which to ignore based on our beliefs regarding which are productive and which are not, there are no laws, there is only anarchy. 

I don't like licensing laws, I obey them, I have always obeyed them, I think the guys who ignore that part of the job are hacks. When being licensed and insured is required then doing so is a significant part of doing the job. Failure to perform that mandatory task makes the unlicensed contractor a hack. 

Don't spew that crap about his "work" is good, it is not, it is grossly incomplete. Charging a customer for a job that was not completed per the law is hack work. The work was not performed in a workmanlike manner because by definition, that would require following the laws.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Hack is such a loose term.

Some people are "black & white, no such thing as grey". They have never had to live on the edge (in the grey) and thusly will never be able to see it. These are your "elitists". Every industry has them.

For someone who has had to live in the "grey" area to try and show it to an elitist is pointless.

Ask a millionaire if stealing to feed your family is ever right. They never had to do it, and cannot comprehend it.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

I live my whole life in the "grey":blink:


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> I live my whole life in the "grey":blink:


Amen!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Driftweed said:


> Hack is such a loose term.
> 
> Some people are "black & white, no such thing as grey". They have never had to live on the edge (in the grey) and thusly will never be able to see it. These are your "elitists". Every industry has them.
> 
> ...


I'm not a millionaire by any definition and its wrong to steal for any reason. See you think it's ok to steal as long as you need it, unless its your stuff getting stolen.


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## Walter Secore (Jun 2, 2012)

There is only two things I stole in my life. The first was a quarter out of my mothers purse and got my ass beat for it. The second was my wife's heart and I'm still paying for that one.


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Driftweed said:


> Ask a millionaire if stealing to feed your family is ever right. They never had to do it, and cannot comprehend it.


Sometimes a 12,13 or14 year old needs to steal food because they can not work yet and that is fine by me.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> Sometimes a 12,13 or14 year old needs to steal food because they can not work yet and that is fine by me.


I suppose in some third world countries that might be, but in this country I believe there are other avenues that haven't been taken.


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## barry1219 (Oct 8, 2011)

thom said:


> *
> Absolutely, positively, WRONG!!!*
> 
> I started as a builder in Illinois, no licensing required, I had WC (required) prior to doing a single job. Never did a side job in my life, how could I, I own the company.
> ...


I knew someone would get their panties in a wad...ok..except for you. It was a point I was making that at one time or another in our careers we could have been the "technical" version of a "hack"..


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Driftweed said:


> Hack is such a loose term.
> 
> Some people are "black & white, no such thing as grey". They have never had to live on the edge (in the grey) and thusly will never be able to see it. These are your "elitists". Every industry has them.
> 
> ...


Your argument is based on a presumptuous premise that millionaires are born with a silver spoon. Stating the purpose of using the proceeds of stealing is an appeal to emotion. 

Feeding a family is good
Stealing is bad

sarcasm

But if bad is needed to accomplish the good, it must be good. 
If consequence is seen as desirable, then the action must be good.

/sarcasm


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> But if bad is needed to accomplish the good, it must be good.
> If consequence is seen as desirable, then the action must be good.


Oh boy would I like to respond to this but we are not in the P&R thread!


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

Electric_Light said:


> But if bad is needed to accomplish the good, it must be good.
> If consequence is seen as desirable, then the action must be good.


Then so, in your version of right and wrong, there are no constants, no definitions, and ultimately no consequences. 

Bad is not needed to accomplish the good. Ends do not justify means. 

Seems strange, I am in a tiny minority here, being an atheist, yet I believe the means are a critical and necessary part of the ends. Many of you Christians insist that what you believe is true while insisting your actions that are contrary to those teachings are necessary.

Yes, this is delving into P&R territory as does much of how we live our lives. Sometimes those issues cannot be separated.


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

Lest it be inferred upon me, I think stealing is wrong in every single instance. Stealing bread is not simply stealing a bit of food, it's essentially enslaving the producer of the bread for your gain. 

Now to whoever made that silly comparison with their friend thinking rape laws are ridiculous. I trust if you are honest with yourself you realize how dumb a comparison you made. One law deals with two people freely trading with each other, the other law deals with someone forcing people to do things they don't want. Then again you already knew you were being silly.


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## Denny Rossi (Oct 16, 2012)

*Unlicensed Hacks*

It is so much easier to take a job away from an unlicesed uninsured hack, Than a licensed low baller.. If you can not sel the value of being licensed and insured,, this will just be the begining of problems. unless you just paint or put up wallpaper. 
serioulsly in the big world the licensed hack (low baller)) is far more dangerous


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

LeeFowler said:


> Now to whoever made that silly comparison with their friend thinking rape laws are ridiculous. I trust if you are honest with yourself you realize how dumb a comparison you made. One law deals with two people freely trading with each other, the other law deals with someone forcing people to do things they don't want. Then again you already knew you were being silly.


It is not silly, it makes a point by using an extreme. When we pick which laws we will follow, there is no law, merely the actions of our desire. 

The two people freely trading is also a canard, free trade does not allow violation of the rights and well being of others. I don't have a right to sell you cocaine, so that transaction is not legitimate free trade, the same is true of contracting without a license. 

Do you make the argument that taxes need not be paid? Successive owners of properties have no expectation that construction was done per code? 

One cannot honestly argue for the existence of building codes while at the same time arguing that required permits need not be procured. Procuring those permits will require proper licensing or the act of fraud, the procurement of permits in the name of someone who is not doing the work. 

In my state, a homeowner may work on his personal residence but, if he hires another to assist him, that person must be licensed to do the work.


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

See that's where you assume too much. I don't argue for any code at all. I know it's an extreme view and not one taken lightly. Seeing as many find it impossible to both disagree with a law and follow it, I should state I follow all building codes. 

As for future owners, I don't have an answer, I suppose this is where private inspectors would come into play. I do however believe individuals tend to act in their best interest. It's not my responsibility to force others into making good or bad choices. As a business owner I always try to offer the best solution to the prospective clients problem, but I can't force it upon him. If he chooses someone willing to do it cheaper at lower quality, then that is up to him. 

Finally as to using an extreme. You didn't simply use an extreme to make your point. You used a different scenario to make your point. Your example has nothing to do with two people freely dealing with each other. I hardly care if I have a governments or laws that overstep their boundaries. I could do without them. I realize they aren't going anywhere and I don't care much for starting a fight I can't win.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

LeeFowler said:


> I don't argue for any code at all. I know it's an extreme view and not one taken lightly.


Lee:

This I've gotta hear. Start a new thread if you have to, please.

Joe


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

What's there to hear? I don't argue for any building codes. This is entirely different from I don't think people should do quality work. I have seen the results of loose building codes, and it isn't always pretty. I don't imagine I would ever find such a place and I lack the interest to lobby anyone to change the laws. It's simply a personal belief. I realize some would do absolutely terrible work, I'm not foolish enough to think they wouldn't. By the same token, I believe some would do the same quality work they do now. Perhaps it's misplaced, but I believe in the integrity of people.


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## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> I don't imagine I would ever find such a place


You don't travel much do you? 



> It is so much easier to take a job away from an unlicesed uninsured hack, Than a licensed low baller.. If you can not sel the value of being licensed and insured,, this will just be the begining of problems. unless you just paint or put up wallpaper.
> serioulsly in the big world the licensed _hack (low baller)) _is far more dangerous


Agree..The worst is a (non) hack lowballer :whistling


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

Acres said:


> You don't travel much do you?


I travel too much probably. Point me to a place that both stands behind contract law and allows for free trade between individuals. I would gladly visit. Outside of Singapore or Hong Kong I imagine you will have a hard time. 

By the way, happy New Years from Mexico City.


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

All you big gov Democrats that just love more and more regulations are destroying peoples ability to get by. Making someone a criminal for working, and doing a good job, because they didnt bow down with the rest of ya, or simply dont have the money to get the license thing going, is criminal in itself. 

Keep begging for more. You are sowing the seeds of your own destruction.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

hchc said:


> All you big gov Democrats that just love more and more regulations are destroying peoples ability to get by. Making someone a criminal for working, and doing a good job, because they didnt bow down with the rest of ya, or simply dont have the money to get the license thing going, is criminal in itself.
> 
> Keep begging for more. You are sowing the seeds of your own destruction.


Actually, I got a feeling lots of them are Republicans just trying to do the right thing.

Side note. I work in Washington DC and hear all the chit chat from my conservative clients about illegals, etc., etc. But when it comes to quotes for small jobs, they're the same as everybody else. Go with their idea of "best value" and it's often the cheap guy the neighbor used recently. They don't want to know too much as long as they feel they can trust the guy to a degree. And once they get a few small, acceptable jobs under their belt, they let the guy take on larger stuff. DC must be the capital of the plain white cargo van.


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## BTM Contracting (Jan 17, 2013)

hchc said:


> All you big gov Democrats that just love more and more regulations are destroying peoples ability to get by. Making someone a criminal for working, and doing a good job, because they didnt bow down with the rest of ya, or simply dont have the money to get the license thing going, is criminal in itself.
> 
> Keep begging for more. You are sowing the seeds of your own destruction.


I am very much so a conservative republican, and I am also a very hard working American who follows the rules. If I have to pay for licenses, insurance, workers compensation and what not so should you. If you don't follow the rules, then you should be punished. I personally am tired of fixing other people's mess. Home building isn't rocket science, but there are proper ways of doing things and if you don't know how to do it then DON'T. Being a licensed and insured contractor gives the home owner sense of security that you know what the hell your doing, and if you don't they have something to fall back on. I hate hacks and unlicensed want to be contractors.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

BTM Contracting said:


> I am very much so a conservative republican, and I am also a very hard working American who follows the rules. If I have to pay for licenses, insurance, workers compensation and what not so should you. If you don't follow the rules, then you should be punished. I personally am tired of fixing other people's mess. Home building isn't rocket science, but there are proper ways of doing things and if you don't know how to do it then DON'T. Being a licensed and insured contractor gives the home owner sense of security that you know what the hell your doing, and if you don't they have something to fall back on. *I hate hacks and unlicensed want to be contractors.*


I hate haters...
Oh wait, that won't work at all.
Maybe you xan find a business where there's less need to hate. Customers might like it too.
Who knows - you might even make some money at it.


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## BTM Contracting (Jan 17, 2013)

SmallTownGuy said:


> I hate haters...
> Oh wait, that won't work at all.
> Maybe you xan find a business where there's less need to hate. Customers might like it too.
> Who knows - you might even make some money at it.


Funny enough I make real good money doing what I do. I also do it legally, and I don't much care if you hate haters or if you roll your eyes. I fully agree with the topic of this thread, get rid of all hacks and unlicensed contractors


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BTM Contracting said:


> I am very much so a conservative republican, and I am also a very hard working American who follows the rules. If I have to pay for licenses, insurance, workers compensation and what not so should you. If you don't follow the rules, then you should be punished. I personally am tired of fixing other people's mess. Home building isn't rocket science, but there are proper ways of doing things and if you don't know how to do it then DON'T. Being a licensed and insured contractor gives the home owner sense of security that you know what the hell your doing, and if you don't they have something to fall back on. I hate hacks and unlicensed want to be contractors.


Like I have said, as well as many others, a license means ZERO, ZILCH, NADA! There are many guys that get a license, do business, rip people off, close shop and then reopen a few months later under a different name. 

Licensing is a revenue generator for municipalities. Everyone has to get a permit. That should be enough. Inspect my work and ensure that it is done correctly, that is all that is really needed. If I don't get a permit and get caught, then slap me with fines, but don't act like a license is anything more than a money maker.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Like I have said, as well as many others, a license means ZERO, ZILCH, NADA! There are many guys that get a license, do business, rip people off, close shop and then reopen a few months later under a different name.
> 
> Licensing is a revenue generator for municipalities. Everyone has to get a permit. That should be enough. *Inspect my work and ensure that it is done correctly, that is all that is really needed.* If I don't get a permit and get caught, then slap me with fines, but don't act like a license is anything more than a money maker.


Jesus H, we agree on something?!


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

hchc said:


> All you big gov Democrats that just love more and more regulations are destroying peoples ability to get by. Making someone a criminal for working, and doing a good job, because they didnt bow down with the rest of ya, or simply dont have the money to get the license thing going, is criminal in itself.
> 
> Keep begging for more. You are sowing the seeds of your own destruction.


 I agree!



SmallTownGuy said:


> Jesus H, we agree on something?!


T&T has a lot of good points:thumbsup:


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## BTM Contracting (Jan 17, 2013)

Your reasoning is ridiculous. Paying the fees for a license are not high and only every 3 years, get a grip guys. Reading your simple minded rebuttals is like listening to someone trying to justify why banning guns is a good idea.


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## Dmitry (Aug 23, 2010)

How about how to get rid of hacks? Does it matter if they are licensed? In many sates you don't have to obtain a license and it also depends on a trade.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

thom said:


> These are not the ideas of politicians. Generally those already in the business wish to create artificial barriers to entry, minimizing competition. The existing businesses come up with all sorts of reasons justifying the requirement so the politicians create the new requirement.
> 
> Once it is law, you have every right to argue against it but you are obligated to follow it.
> 
> Here in NM contractors must be licensed. I don't like it but that's the way it is. Without a license we cannot get a permit, workmens compensation insurance, or liability insurance. All of those, and more (employment taxes and sales taxes), are part of being a real contractor, all of them are a portion of the job. Failing to complete a portion of the job makes you a hack.


So tell me something what motivates politicians? Its not the florists. its always, I repeat, always the money. Do you realize how many people the department of consumer affairs employs in this state, you can thank a union. A union reps only job is to strengthen thier unions, how is that done? We have gone full circle back to the politicians. They trade more money from the budget for public employee jobs. And in return they get that investment back through contributions by the powerful unions. corruption 101!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Not to mention I was in the carpenters union before I got my license,


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> In California workers comp notifies the contractors board if someone drops workers comp and then your license gets suspended


Unless you submit the no employee exemption. If your bond expires, then they will yank your ticket.


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## Bodger (Oct 23, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> In this state it is obviously about money, hell you even need a license to be a florist, why on earth would that need to be a regulated industry? If the flowers are ugly I won't buy them it's that simple.


And ZERO enforcement by the licensing bureau. They do a sting once a year for window dressing, but they no longer investigate tips about unlicensed contractors working. The state of CA is too busy trying to bleed the licensed guys dry since we are on the radar voluntarily. 

And a new 1% tax on all lumber sales just went into effect out here as well.


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

Seemed to be quite the conversation stopper for builder of said deck.....i'm sure the owner off this thing was quite content with the finished product.


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

...


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## Keeyter (Sep 18, 2010)

There are shows on TV like Mike Holmes because of Hacks, both licensed and unlicensed, as well as Illegals Immigrants, and Uninsured as well as the consumers idea of value. 

Everyone is a victim, either the customer got a hack job, the illegal lost an honest days work, or the legitimate carries them both thru on his back. There will never be a win win.


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

I read a few pages of this thread. All i gotta say is if i gotta pay insurance, w/c, PAY TAXES ON MY INCOME, &fees that means i have a overhead.. aka my estimates/job costs are higher.

If the illegal/hack/unlicensed guy dosnt carry insurance, w/c, PAYS NO TAXES ON INCOME or has any fees or overhead his estimate and job cost will be wayyy less. They will more than likley get the job because in this economy people dont look at quality or legitability they look at the cheapest price. And from now on they always will.

I could care less if he is the best and greatest contractor. He has an unfair advantage.... Which is No to minimal overhead.. which will equate to him having that crazy low estimate and to him getting that job.

The only way to get rid of that problem is to rid the market of low ballers, illegals and rule breakers that lower the standards and prices...


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Rich D. said:


> The only way to get rid of that problem is to rid the market of low ballers, illegals and rule breakers that lower the standards and prices...


In the land of government assistance and Wal-mart?

good luck with that.

-Scott


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

Rich D. said:


> ....
> I could care less if he is the best and greatest contractor. He has an unfair advantage.... Which is No to minimal overhead.. which will equate to him having that crazy low estimate and to him getting that job.
> 
> The only way to get rid of that problem is to rid the market of low ballers, illegals and rule breakers that lower the standards and prices...


So because my bid comes in lower than yours, now I'M a lowballer? 

I'm licensed (in the areas I need to be) & insured. I collect & pay taxes. My overhead costs may be lower than yours. Maybe not, but if they are, that's a competitive advantage I can give to my customers if I choose to.

Therefore, you feel the need to get rid of me now too?


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I categorically disagree with both sides of this argument. You are all so wrong and cant even prove otherwise..


The law is the law and must be followed. And if you get caught breaking the law, you will be punished. There, I win. :laughing:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Sir Mixalot said:


> The law is the law and must be followed. And if you get caught breaking the law, you will be punished. There, I win. :laughing:


But can you prove it? Im not risking my $1000 bill without signed affidavits from the pope, new and old, and some sort of conclusive video proof.


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## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

svronthmve said:


> So because my bid comes in lower than yours, now I'M a lowballer?
> 
> I'm licensed (in the areas I need to be) & insured. I collect & pay taxes. My overhead costs may be lower than yours. Maybe not, but if they are, that's a competitive advantage I can give to my customers if I choose to.
> 
> Therefore, you feel the need to get rid of me now too?


technically you wouldn`t be considered a " low-baller" in my eyes ( licensed and insured also)
you have the same required overhead. 
so to me , that's all fair.

it does piss me off that a guy with no overhead can charge less because he doesn`t pay the necessary dues
I`ve got low over head , because I work out of my home. also , on smaller jobs , I jump in a do a lot of the work 
that makes it possible to charge less
that's not low-balling to me
that's improvising , and evolving in an economy that requires you to do what you can to survive . 
as long as your licensed and insured


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Just sell harder and charge more..


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

svronthmve said:


> So because my bid comes in lower than yours, now I'M a lowballer?
> 
> I'm licensed (in the areas I need to be) & insured. I collect & pay taxes. My overhead costs may be lower than yours. Maybe not, but if they are, that's a competitive advantage I can give to my customers if I choose to.
> 
> Therefore, you feel the need to get rid of me now too?


If you carry insurance, w/c, pay into taxes and carry licenses your no low baller. If you low balled you would not be in bussiness sir. Unless you think 20$ an hour will pay you a nice salary and cover all you overhead.. 

You may come in lower than me but i doubt by alot. May a few hundred.. but not by thousands like low ballers would..

I dont mind competeing with anyone. As long as they carry all neccessary things like insurances etc. Then we are at the same playing field.

I hate seeing unlicensed, un insured, non tax paying illegals working out of a bicycle take the jobs from the rest of the legit guys.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Rich D. said:


> If you carry insurance, w/c, pay into taxes and carry licenses your no low baller. If you low balled you would not be in bussiness sir. Unless you think 20$ an hour will pay you a nice salary and cover all you overhead..
> 
> You may come in lower than me but i doubt by alot. May a few hundred.. but not by thousands like low ballers would..
> 
> ...


That simply isn't true.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> But can you prove it? Im not risking my $1000 bill without signed affidavits from the pope, new and old, and some sort of conclusive video proof.


Yes. If I'm Licensing Enforcement and pull up on a job and you're not licensed and you are required to be licensed for the trade that you are performing. You are guilty! Then it's up to you to prove otherwise. :thumbup:


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## CITY DECKS INC (Sep 4, 2012)

Oconomowoc said:


> Oh no. Not this again. Lol


IT’S JUST AS BAD AS HOW TO GET RID OF THE ILLEGALS. :no::no::no::no:

SIMPLY DO NOT HIRE THEM. WORK WILL DRY AND THEY GO BACK....


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Sir Mixalot said:


> The law is the law and must be followed. And if you get caught breaking the law, you will be punished. There, I win. :laughing:


Paul is that you in that barrel, in your avatar?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> That simply isn't true.


Insert pickup for bike and move to Texas, it will become true. 

Im not really in a position to be competing against illegals, but many are. I DO however compete with guys who have a simple GL policy that probably doesnt cover anything, who use illegals, 1099 the guys who arent illegal , ect.....

Not all of my competition, but half at least. If you are bidding on houses under 300k minimum, remodel or new, almost all of your competition will be using illegals, and maybe some 1099 employees, no insurance or chitty insurance. Although I did land two jobs last year on cheaper homes. HO made it through my qualification questions, so I bid it.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Splinter said:


> Not necessarily. These guys will submit false documents to their employer. The taxes and SS will get taken out of their check, but they'll never be able to file a return or collect a refund.


That's my understanding. Now, how suspicious the sub is/should be of them - I don't know.

There are also a good number of "Born in the USA" types who insist on cash payments, for all the usual reasons.

It's a fact of life and eternal to the industry.


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## LeeFowler (Nov 3, 2012)

Some of you guys really undervalue sleep.


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

*Putting Workers in Jail For Working*

That is what this has come to. Fine them for working. Fine them for advertising. Fine them, fine them, and then jail them. 

I love these guys that say "If I have to do it, then everyone does"...

You dont HAVE to do anything. If you choose to follow orders, thats on you. And no, not all laws are just. People have a right to contract. And HO have a right to hire whoever they damn well want. Its 

How about this- instead of taking money out of kids mouth's, why dont all these pro license guys go and get the licensing removed. Make it a level playing field. 

""[w]ithout doubt...denotes not merely freedom from bodily restraint but also the right of the individual to contract, to engage in any of the common occupations of life, to acquire useful knowledge, to marry, establish a home and bring up children, to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and generally to enjoy those privileges long recognized at common law as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."

Competition and free market economics work. They always have. 

Be active. Challenge things.


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

I don't get it.. I don't know who but for the guys that aren't licensed & legit. Aren't you scared that if you don't carry insurance and something happens the client can bring you to court and take away everything you have? Or aren't you scared since you aren't licensed, by law at the end of the job the homeowner does not need to pay you a cent? What you gunna do if they drop that bomb on you? Can't put a lien on there house can't take them to court, can't do anything.. You loose... Aren't you scared of the IRS ? How do you cash checks? In a personal bank account? There's no way to legally claim where that money comes from. And don't say your all cash.. No one is going to hand some 12 grand in cash...

If your avoiding the laws that's just being lazy IMO...

Idc if illegals are working for legit guys.. I really can't stand when they work for themselves illegally charging basically nothing to do the job...

And I hate guys that say there licensed and there's no registration number on there advertisement.. I look online for the license number and there is none.. If you don't have a license don't lie to your clients and say you have one...

Whatever....


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

hchc said:


> That is what this has come to. Fine them for working. Fine them for advertising. Fine them, fine them, and then jail them.
> 
> I love these guys that say "If I have to do it, then everyone does"...
> 
> ...


Do you have a driver's license? :whistling


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

Sir Mixalot said:


> Do you have a driver's license? :whistling


Lest you forget, there was a time drivers licenses didn't exist and weren't needed. Then some beaurocrat decided otherwise! :whistling:


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

LeeFowler said:


> Some of you guys really undervalue sleep.


Over 10 hours last night:laughing: Friday and Saturday were both late :drink:


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

svronthmve said:


> Lest you forget, there was a time drivers licenses didn't exist and weren't needed. Then some beaurocrat decided otherwise! :whistling:


If it keeps 8 year olds from driving a car im fine with having to get a drivers license... Amagin kids driving to elementry school????


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

hchc said:


> That is what this has come to. Fine them for working. Fine them for advertising. Fine them, fine them, and then jail them.
> 
> I love these guys that say "If I have to do it, then everyone does"...
> 
> ...





Sir Mixalot said:


> Do you have a driver's license? :whistling





svronthmve said:


> Lest you forget, there was a time drivers licenses didn't exist and weren't needed. Then some beaurocrat decided otherwise! :whistling:


:laughing: No.

My question was in response to:


hchc said:


> You dont HAVE to do anything. If you choose to follow orders, thats on you. And no, not all laws are just. People have a right to contract. And HO have a right to hire whoever they damn well want.[/


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

*Business is Business*

There's plenty of businesses where the client can decide to just not pay. 

If someone has decided to just not pay you, then you probably screwed something up. If you cant rectify the situation, then you probably arent going to be in business very long. 

A driver's license can be passed by any idiot 15 year old kid, so lets not make it out like its a consideration. 32,000 people died in car accidents last year. 

Basically, if you just let people be, things tend to take care of themselves. 

Start making criminals of your neighbors for trying to make a couple bucks, and you have just stepped into some very bad territory that leads to all sorts of bad stuff.


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

hchc said:


> There's plenty of businesses where the client can decide to just not pay.
> 
> 
> True, but when involved in unlicensed contracting, you have zero legal recourse, at least in Florida. Contracts won't even hold up in court.
> ...


I couldn't disagree more, there are far to many dirtbags, and no good greedy sob's, give em an inch they'll take miles. What a headache, but I feel we need the regulation, the honor system just does not work well enough. Licensing may not fix everything, but it certainly helps keep many in check.


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

You can really tell who isn't licensed and insured by reading what people write on this thread. Stop skipping steps and trying to fly under the radar... It's just being lazy and breaking laws. If you dont agree with having to have a license and insurance move to somewhere that it isn't required and stop complaining.


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

Has anyone noticed that the most cynical contractors are the ones who seems to always get screwed over? Same for homeowners? 

And has anyone noticed that the people who simply do work and are honest have relatively few "problem customers"...and that people who do their research and have faith in people usually dont get burned by contractors. 

Some flippers always have problems. Some never do. Theres a theme there. 

And licensing has done NOTHING to remove bad work. The quality of work in this country has been on a downward path for decades. 

Supply/demand is a real *****.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Quit cheating. Get a license if its required.


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

"You can really tell who isn't licensed and insured by reading what people write on this thread. Stop skipping steps and trying to fly under the radar... It's just being lazy and breaking laws. If you dont agree with having to have a license and insurance move to somewhere that it isn't required and stop complaining."

Theres a ton of licensed guys in Florida that will tell you its all bull****, it doesnt fix a thing and it just takes more time and money out of everyones pocket. Thats what needless gov hacks patroling the county tend to do. 

Im from Rochester NY, no licensing, and the work quality is much higher without the politicians telling the workers and consumers that they are smarter than them. Florida has a lower standard of work, and the big companies are the worst by far. 

If there was a strong demand from the consumers for licensing, then there would be no unlicensed guys out there. As it is, most homeowners dont care what the local gov says about a person's ability to hang a door. They want to talk to a few references and make the best decision based on value. 

And homeowners ever ask you what you scored on your tests? No. Its meaningless, and the consumer doesnt care. Some do, and they are willing to pay for it. Thats your target market. 

Stop worrying about the guy who simply wants someone to come over and patch the roof where the tree fell in.


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

Complaining, crying, and being lazy is no excuse to not obey laws and regulations.


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

Hey rich, you are the one who is losing out on jobs because of it, not me. 

And your apathy is something that is widespread in this nation. 

If you enjoy bowing down to your local politicians and asking permission to work, thats on you. Some of us have at least a shred of self respect.

Standing up for your rights is not cheating.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

hchc said:


> Hey rich, you are the one who is losing out on jobs because of it, not me.
> 
> And your apathy is something that is widespread in this nation.
> 
> ...


Your thought process on this is so out of wack its depressing.

If your area requires you to be licensed (I don't care if you hate the government and complain about it being a money grab, which it is) you need to be licensed. It's that simple!

I hate paying 20k in insurances a year but it is REQUIRED! Even though I complain about it, I still do it. I got lead certified although I didn't want to. I got licensed in certain cities although I didn't want to.

If you can't "afford" being legitimate, go work for someone else.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

hchc said:


> A driver's license can be passed by any idiot 15 year old kid, so lets not make it out like its a consideration.


Then why do you have one? Because it's required by the state. Just like some states require a license for certain trades. :thumbsup:

Not having a Drywall contractor license is not an option for me here in my area. If I get caught without proper licensing, first offense $500 fine + $500 for each employee on the job. 

The bottom line is licensing varies from state to state and county to county. It's hard for guy's to understand if they aren't living the licensing fiasco in their area. All these laws are out of our control. Come to Florida with the f licensing attitude and you will be going back to where you came from either broke or wanted.

By the way where are you located?


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

TAHomeRepairs said:


> I couldn't disagree more, there are far to many dirtbags, and no good greedy sob's, give em an inch they'll take miles. What a headache, but I feel we need the regulation, the honor system just does not work well enough. *Licensing may not fix everything, but it certainly helps keep many in check.*


Go ahead, tell me what licensing will "fix" - I missed that part.

Does licensing "fix" things the way putting locks on doors does?

Will licensing fix things like it does in preventing people from speeding, not buckling up, parking in handicap spaces?

Will licensing make people cut straighter, buy premium materials, or follow instructions when installing a product?

Will licensing prevent dirtbags and no good greedy SOBS from getting a license - and then continue to be dirtbags and greedy SOBs?

I've been working in a state that requires licensing for any work over 600 bucks since before I became adult. And guess what - the likelihood of being punished for being unlicensed has not changed one iota in all that time. Nor has it reduced the ratio of unlicensed to licensed "contractors".

So go ahead - in your Utopian world, tell me what REAL effect licensing will have?

That's all - just cut the crap about badmouthing people and lay out in realistic terms what benefits are actually provided to the customer or the tradesperson.

Because, if you can't do that, then what's left is a case of some folks wallering all day with the pigs while wearing their Sunday suits, and then complaining that they smells like....PIG.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

hchc said:


> That is what this has come to. Fine them for working. Fine them for advertising. Fine them, fine them, and then jail them.
> 
> I love these guys that say "If I have to do it, then everyone does"...
> 
> ...


What about doctors should they be required to have a license? And if so why?


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

- IF you want licenses, then make one. Let it show your "expertise". Most of the people could care less about a dumb government test when it comes to finding someone to lay some new flooring. 

And Florida is a mess. Theres so many unlicensed guys down here flipping houses and working they might as well just get rid of it. Of course, then everyone would be on an equal playing field, and that scares some. I worked in Florida for quite some time- no one cares about licensing except the local government politicians. The builders would sub to you, the realtors would hire you, and the home owners will go with who has the best references. 

Its a joke. Just another money grab. And all the people just roll over and accept it. 

"If you cant afford to be licensed, then go work for someone else"... Let me guess, you love WalMart, Lowes and Bank of America too?!! 

Just think, with enough drowning out of honest, hard working americans, pretty soon ONE corporation can control everything. As long as you can afford to be the one, you will OK!!


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> What about doctors should they be required to have a license? And if so why?


By them having a license it allows them to charge you 1000.00$ a hour, even when they're wrong:thumbup:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

hchc said:


> - IF you want licenses, then make one. Let it show your "expertise". Most of the people could care less about a dumb government test when it comes to finding someone to lay some new flooring.
> 
> And Florida is a mess. Theres so many unlicensed guys down here flipping houses and working they might as well just get rid of it. Of course, then everyone would be on an equal playing field, and that scares some. I worked in Florida for quite some time- no one cares about licensing except the local government politicians. The builders would sub to you, the realtors would hire you, and the home owners will go with who has the best references.
> 
> ...


My customers are very concerned that their contractor be licensed and pass the criminal background checks and the the minimum test requirements to do work on thier home. California has a well informed populace.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> By them having a license it allows them to charge you 1000.00$ a hour, even when they're wrong:thumbup:


That's a good point, my doctor can remove my kidney without a permit, but a can't install a water heater unless I get a permit.


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

California has a well informed populace? Thats in the USA right? 

I digress... 

Then you have your target market figured out. Having a license should have certain benefits. Its up to the salesperson to convey those benefits as a worthy value. 

To tell others that they have to do as you do, in regards to their own house, that they have bought and paid for, is tyranny. 

Do not make criminals of your neighbors for not having the ability or desire to do so. People are allowed to work, to liberty. 

" the right of the individual to contract, to engage in any of the common occupations of life, to acquire useful knowledge, to marry, establish a home and bring up children, to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and generally to enjoy those privileges long recognized at common law as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men." 

Would you consider re-roofing someone's house as a common occupation?


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> That's a good point, my doctor can remove my kidney without a permit, but a can't install a water heater unless I get a permit.


I China they pop them out of prisoners and sell the abroad:no:


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Your thought process on this is so out of wack its depressing.
> 
> If your area requires you to be licensed (I don't care if you hate the government and complain about it being a money grab, which it is) you need to be licensed. It's that simple!
> 
> ...


Nuff said... Couldn't say it better...


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

hchc said:


> Would you consider re-roofing someone's house as a common occupation?


We just go get some Palm fronds and lash them down:thumbup:


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

We have officially reached a point in our history where people can state "if you cant afford it, go work for someone else"... "is acceptable. 

Drowning out competition with the help of the government is called fascism or corporatism. Its the death punch to the free market. And once it starts, its tentacles get into everything. 

I bet you all are big fans of Obamacare as well, right? How about mandatory home owners insurance? Bet you love that. Or round up being genetically bred into your produce.... just stop whining and eat it, right? 

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

That's it.. Lets all drop licenses, insurances, w/c, quit paying taxes, shred our drivers licenses, and only take cash payments. Then we could all afford to work for 12 bucks an hour and still have money to blow.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> My customers are very concerned that their contractor be licensed and pass the criminal background checks and the the minimum test requirements to do work on thier home. California has a well informed populace.


mheh - complete load of crap. Here's what the BBB says about your "Well informed populace":



> 05/22/2007
> 
> We've written before about the damage unlicensed contractors can do not only to their customers but to other, licensed contractors. In some specialties, such as flooring and floor covering contractors, *for example, the percentage of unlicensed carpet contractors in Riverside County alone has increased from 50 percent in 1995 to 69 percent in 2005, to 73 percent now. *Because unlicensed contractors don't pay for a license or a bond, nor for workers' compensation or liability insurance, they can operate for significantly less than can licensed flooring contractors. Thus those who operate within the law lose business because they cannot match unlicensed contractors' prices.


http://www.santabarbara.bbb.org/GIReport.aspx?NewsID=161

Did you get that?

It says that in spite of licensing requirements, the number of unlicensed contractors are on the increase - -and what that means THEY are getting paid, and WORKING - YOU are paying higher overhead.

Now, I know you aren't in the floor covering business, but are the numbers that different for decks?

73% - think about that reality.


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## Rich D. (Oct 14, 2011)

I'm no fan of Obama care. This argument isn't about liking politicians and there actions. It's about playing the game fairly. If it was up to me i wouldn't carry an additional 10 grand of overhead.. But I have too.

And home owners insurance is a good thing. I don't want to pay for people's home when a hurricane stops by. That's why you pay for insurance... Hurricane sandy is a good example.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> mheh - complete load of crap. Here's what the BBB says about your "Well informed populace":
> 
> http://www.santabarbara.bbb.org/GIReport.aspx?NewsID=161
> 
> ...


I never said that there were no licensed people working, please show me in my post where I said that license law was preventing contractors from working without a license. What I was saying is the homeowner has a choice. I would say 75% of my customers already know about my license status before I even get to there house. It's a state program called "check the license first" so please enlighten me on what load of crap besides in your mouth are you talking about.

People's lives aren't on the line with a carpet install, it is with a balcony.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Here's the site my customers check all the time 

https://www2.cslb.ca.gov/OnlineServices/CheckLicenseII/CheckLicense.aspx

Then again I guess I have a more educated client base then that 73% you work for


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## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

hchc said:


> They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.


 If your going to keep quoting Old Ben,maybe this will bring your attitude up to date:http://3dblogger.typepad.com/wired_...-quote-deserve-not-to-be-taken-seriously.html


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## hchc (Mar 12, 2011)

Rich, why would you pay for someone's home that didnt have insurance? They didnt get it, so if something happens, thats on them.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Californiadecks said:


> Here's the site my customers check all the time
> 
> https://www2.cslb.ca.gov/OnlineServices/CheckLicenseII/CheckLicense.aspx
> 
> Then again I guess *I have a more educated client base* then that 73% you work for


It is YOUR state, YOUR stats and in response to YOUR quote.

Keep wishin....


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

hchc said:


> Rich, why would you pay for someone's home that didnt have insurance? They didnt get it, so if something happens, thats on them.


You clearly don't know enough about the Cali contracting business to make an informed opinion. I could not be near as successful as I am today without a license. I can't even pull a permit without a license, floor covering doesn't need a permit that is a poor example. 

Without a license you are never going to have much more then you could as an employee somewhere always hiding in the underground economy, that's no way to live, why not just get a phucking license like a real businessman, and pay the 300 bucks a year. It's pretty damn simple. Are you too lazy to study for the test. You probably have no problem obtaining a drivers license. I have to ask why get a drivers license because there are a lot of people driving without a license. Isn't that the same ignorant logic?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

SmallTownGuy said:


> It is YOUR state, YOUR stats and in response to YOUR quote.
> 
> Keep wishin....


Those are not my stats those are my customers that choose to check the license, that's all.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TAHomeRepairs said:


> I just skipped alot of pages of BS, just to say "small town guys"and hc's are idiots


Idiots a strong word. While we seem to disagree somewhat on this issue, Small Town seems like a good guy, and I dig his posts generally. Havent seen enough of HC yet, but idiot doesnt fit so far at all.

While I disagree with a lot of members, I value their opinions when they are an informed opinion. Otherwise, why not talk to ourselves. :whistling


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> I see no reason to call anybody names here:no:


Sorry Randy,I got kicked out of the debate club for starting too many fist fights


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I have a great picture for this moment but the boring old men said Im not allowed to post pictures anymore soooooo Im just going to add,,, whats insurance?..


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> Yup, and like you and JAWS and many others, I pride myself in being licensed and insured.
> 
> The issue that others have made, and I stand squarely with, is that licensing and insurance in and of themselves provides the customer with Zero, Nada, Zilch.
> 
> ...


No license in Texas. 

Yet


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

TAHomeRepairs said:


> Its kind of like keeping taxpayers from replacing everyone's air conditioners because they didn't ever want to change their air filters.


We don't use no stinkin air conditioners:no:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I have a great picture for this moment but the boring old men said Im not allowed to post pictures anymore soooooo Im just going to add,,, whats insurance?..


????


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

TAHomeRepairs said:


> I just skipped alot of pages of BS, just to say "small town guys"and hc's are idiots


Why thank you.

And it's "Certificated, licensed and insured "idiot".

Lets get it right - MKAY sweetie?
XOXOXOXO


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

TAHomeRepairs said:


> Sorry Randy,I got kicked out of the debate club for starting too many fist fights


Dude do you know me from Florida:blink:


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

Jaws said:


> ????


I got a hand slap this morning.. Im not allowed to post pictures, or go off topic, or enjoy myself or they're going to ban me. Probably get banned for this who knows. Someone has a major crush on me and sends others so he can hide behind his mod badge while someone else throws mud balls.. :laughing:


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

Rich D. said:


> I'm no fan of Obama care. This argument isn't about liking politicians and there actions. It's about playing the game fairly. If it was up to me i wouldn't carry an additional 10 grand of overhead.. But I have too.
> 
> And home owners insurance is a good thing. I don't want to pay for people's home when a hurricane stops by. That's why you pay for insurance... Hurricane sandy is a good example.


You obviously don't understand home insurance then. If you have home insurance then you ARE paying every time a disaster stops by somewhere in the US. Those dollars payed out are spread across all customers. Do you think you could afford or even get insurance in an area that is prone to disasters?

And this drivel some of you guys are whining about saying "things need to be fair, things need to be on a level playing field" is more societal & educational BS that's been promoted by our screwed up educational system. Whaa, whaa, whaa!

You know what? LIFE'S NOT FAIR! NEVER HAS BEEN - NEVER WILL BE! Time to pull your big boy underwear on and realize that life is what YOU make of the circumstances that YOU'RE dealt. Trying to make it fair for everybody, ends up making it fair for NOBODY! The reality is that a FEW really excell. SOME fail miserably no matter who helps them. MOST are just mediocre! Kwit yer bich'n and asking for everything to be FAIR!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Bottom line is we all did unlicensed work at one time, but there is a point where you do what you need to do to protect your assets and family. I just have to much in life that I have worked very hard to get, my kids education, my home, my retirement etc. it just makes business sense to get the proper licensing, that way I can get insurance to protect myself. It's really a basic concept. Sometimes it doesn't matter rather I agree with it.


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

Jaws said:


> Idiots a strong word. While we seem to disagree somewhat on this issue, Small Town seems like a good guy, and I dig his posts generally. Havent seen enough of HC yet, but idiot doesnt fit so far at all.
> 
> While I disagree with a lot of members, I value their opinions when they are an informed opinion. Otherwise, why not talk to ourselves. :whistling


I completely agree. Maybe a few too many? Soorry. inappropriate my bad, I hate typing lengthy rebuttals


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I got a hand slap this morning.. Im not allowed to post pictures, or go off topic, or enjoy myself or they're going to ban me. Probably get banned for this who knows. Someone has a major crush on me and sends others so he can hide behind his mod badge while someone else throws mud balls.. :laughing:


Your seeing ghosts that aint there....

Chill, enjoy yourself and post your valued opinion. If you got warned it was for something that was out of line..... 

No Gestapo here. :thumbsup:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TAHomeRepairs said:


> I completely agree. Maybe a few too many? Soorry. inappropriate my bad, I hate typing lengthy rebuttals


:thumbsup:


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

Dirtywhiteboy said:


> We don't use no stinkin air conditioners:no:


We don't all live in the Pacific


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Jaws said:


> No license in Texas.
> 
> Yet


John, as God is my witness, even if you and every other small to mid-size builder thought licensing unwise, when the time comes, and the Big Builders feel the pressure or see the opportunity, you WILL get licensing.

For them, it's all about raising the ante to the poker game.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

SmallTownGuy said:


> John, as God is my witness, even if you and every other small to mid-size builder thought licensing unwise, when the time comes, and the Big Builders feel the pressure or see the opportunity, you WILL get licensing.
> 
> For them, it's all about raising the ante to the poker game.


Voting on Friday as to whether or not we will obby for or against....


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Wait I still have 62 more points to make on this then ill be through.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Hope there's no hard feelings small town and HC


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

Yeah sorry,


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## Dirtywhiteboy (Oct 15, 2010)

I like both sides of the argument:blink:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> Hope there's no hard feelings small town and HC


Dont apologize for your view. Thats what makes this place worth reading...:thumbsup:


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## bbgcarpentry (Apr 11, 2009)

More government more taxes just drives more people under ground at its not just unlicensed hacks.here in Canada I know good people who are being driven underground by hst wsib higher gas ,metro licience ,the list goes on .joe public just can't afford to pay for all these things for simple Reno ,it's getting harder and darker to pass the taxes on to the client.

Less taxes and regs would give you more above board contractors


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Dont apologize for your view. Thats what makes this place worth reading...:thumbsup:


Not apologizing for my view just making it clear I'm not taking this personal.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Got a few degrees off topic...:laughing:

There are no bloody noses yet....:no:

and everybody is still friends...:thumbsup:

So lets end this on a positive note....:thumbup:


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