# The BEST underlayment?



## bkb0000

Hola amigos

I've been roofing for 15 years in the Pacific Northwest, so I am no stranger to working under rain.

And I don't know what the deal is.... but for the first half of my career, always working for someone else, using whatever they ordered for the job, I never had any trouble with leaking - always felt, usually 30#, but sometimes even 15#.

And I'm sure it's partially just a consequence of the fact that I'm a contractor now, have guys working for me that may or may not do perfect work 100% of the time, and I'm the guy that gets the call when problems happen... but it sure seems like underlayments leak when you leave them under rain these days.

I don't use felt anymore. I'm not entirely sure when I switched to Safeguard30... I think about 4 years ago. I switched because felt is such a PITA to work with in the rain - bubbling up, needing to be slashed, and the compromise in waterproofing you get for the duration of a project with slashed felt under shingles that may or may not go all the way to the top... etc. But I'll tell you - I'm seriously considering going back to felt, and just dealing with it. My roofs NEVER leaked when I used felt.

I go to these fancy new synthetic or semi-synthetic underlayments, and now I have to abstain from drinking at night when we've got a roof under rain - because sometimes I get 10PM calls - "Our ****ing roof is leaking, you stupid ****ing roofer!" No, I never get attitudes like that.. but that's the attitude I'd have if MY roof ever leaked because of someone else.

Jeez.

Anyway... I'm going to try other products before I go back to felt. Everyone LIKES that I use Safeguard30 - the armchair roofer client reads good things about it, and it justifies my slighter-higher pricing, to them, I guess. "Will never rot!" "Lies flat and doesn't need to be slashed during install!" All that stuff they like to read. My main guy really like's OC's gray tarp-like underlayment... can't remember what it's called. But he likes that it beads water, and there's apparently some kind of plastic shrink-wrap like material on the bottom that seem to gasket around the nails/staples, so it doesn't leak. Any thoughts on that stuff?

Other recommendations of stuff to try?

Money is no object here - just desperately need something that won't leak straight through the lapped staple holes.

Thanks

-B


PS - for clarity, I'm talking exclusively about during-construction. My roofs never leak once shingled. Never.

And yes - we do only staple on the seams. And we do inwardly-angle the seams, and use a fat overlap. It's not a question of install methods - the **** just straight up leaks sometimes.


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## dulltoothbeaver

I'm with you on synthetic underlayment...... I could cut a brand new piece of titanium udl 30 and hold it over my head out in a rain and it would leak on my head!..... I've tried installing udl every which way, traditionally bottom up, top down, ran vertically, staples, roof nails, button caps.... All leaks for me... I gave up, and back to the tried and true 30lb felt.


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## dDubya

I like Titanium UDL30. I built a chicken coop about four years ago and had planned on splitting wood shakes for it. The Titanium was cap nailed and it just blew off one side about a month ago!

Inside of the plywood looks great on the North side, but the South side has been leaking after the caps were degraded and popped off from UV exposure.

Seriously though, I trust Titanium with cap nails, however we normally staple it and have left it through rains with no problems that I'm aware of.


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## bkb0000

One thing I thought about today - I don't know how widely available this stuff is, at least under this name - but my local supplier has a "Lionguard15" full synthetic underlayment for $76/roll, for 10 squares... that's $7.6/sq.. so cheap, I could double up on it and double my install labor wage, for the same cost..

We'd just do a full half sheet overlap - so it really wouldn't even take that much longer to install it double-layer. I mean, usually this stuff leaks at the staples, but only through one layer.. so if you only staple on the seams, you supposedly don't have any problems... but doing it like this, you'd have 3 layers at the seams - maybe less likely to leak?? plus your butt-seams wouldn't be vulnerable, so bundle stacks shouldn't matter (bundles stacked over seams can cause leaks)


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## Mr Latone

So bkb0000, I see you have been at it for a long time, so I'm not gong to try to tell you how, I will just relay my experience.

The safest underlayment is the one that is shingled over the same day :thumbsup:

Really, I know that's a half smart-assed answer to your post, but truth is it's the best practice. Of course it won't always fit the schedule, but you said it yourself, your shingled roofs don't leak.

Synthetics offer some value in labor savings over asphalt rolls. 10 sq roll doesn't weigh much, it's bigger and there are less end laps.

Most synth manufacturer's require capped staples or nails, but I am fairly certain UDL allows regular roofing nails if covered within a short time frame (maybe a week or less?). I still can't find a reason to use such an expensive product unless it's spec'd and paid for as part of the bid.

I happily use the least expensive synthetic I can find. My supplier has gone through several the likes of Rhino Roof, Raptor, and the most recent I can't remember the name of. They are all around $60.

I think they all perform about the same. If cap nailed they do pretty well at keeping the water out, but in a real soaking rain they won't provide me with much confidence.

So I am forced to be an amateur meteorologist. I would probably be better at it in your neck of the woods. I would just forecast rain and I'd be right most of the time :jester:


Anyway, if I can't manage a best practice of roofing what's open, I roof as much as possible. If there's a chance of rain the rest can be tarped. The thing here is that the tarp job doesn't need to be fantastic. Just adequate. The synthetic, after all, isn't completely useless.


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## builditguy

I switched to Certainteed Diamond Deck, several years ago. Have not had a single problem.

Goes on easy and flat. We use a Bostitch cap stapler to put it down. As far as long term, like 6 months, I have no idea how it would hold up. I've never left a roof that long.

I am much happier with Diamond deck than felt.


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## dDubya

Good post Mr. Latone. Some of those cheap synthetics have made me slip just because of the chalk dust, and water from bundles gets dangerous quickly.

UDL30 is expensive, but the traction is unmatched IME. The traction saves us money on 6 to 9/12's because we can move around without so many boards. Above 10 and we normally use a cheaper felt just because you can't walk it anyways.


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## Mr Latone

dDubya said:


> Good post Mr. Latone. Some of those cheap synthetics have made me slip just because of the chalk dust, and water from bundles gets dangerous quickly.
> 
> UDL30 is expensive, but the traction is unmatched IME. The traction saves us money on 6 to 9/12's because we can move around without so many boards. Above 10 and we normally use a cheaper felt just because you can't walk it anyways.


I agree fully that the traction on UDL 30 is unmatched. But I don't know if the UDL 25 (a little cheaper) has the exact same surface. I used it on a job and thought it wasn't the same.

Right now we are preparing a full roof underlayment of the PSU 30. Same surface as the UDL 30 in a peel and stick waterproofing. So far I like it a lot. Bought a full pallet and paid about $85/roll, so fair price too. Traction is unbeatable. I think it's even grippier wet, so long as there is no chance of slush, snow or ice.


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## dDubya

I just bought a pallet of udl25 at about $92/roll whereas a local lumberyard normally sells it for $130. It's definitely not the same. We have really spoiled ourselves with UDL30, but I finally got picky about the jobs we use it on to save a few backs.

Haven't tried to PSU, would love to though. They offer some awesome warranties with it, although I can't say I truly believe in that.


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## A&E Exteriors

I like diamond deck. If you use button tops or a coil nailer it doesn't leak. The staplers put small tears in the material. That's why it leaks. Or you could tarp over the prepped area as well


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## A&E Exteriors

bkb0000 said:


> One thing I thought about today - I don't know how widely available this stuff is, at least under this name - but my local supplier has a "Lionguard15" full synthetic underlayment for $76/roll, for 10 squares... that's $7.6/sq.. so cheap, I could double up on it and double my install labor wage, for the same cost..
> 
> We'd just do a full half sheet overlap - so it really wouldn't even take that much longer to install it double-layer. I mean, usually this stuff leaks at the staples, but only through one layer.. so if you only staple on the seams, you supposedly don't have any problems... but doing it like this, you'd have 3 layers at the seams - maybe less likely to leak?? plus your butt-seams wouldn't be vulnerable, so bundle stacks shouldn't matter (bundles stacked over seams can cause leaks)


If you double layer it you should either 
A...have the horizontal seams splitting the bottom layer and not on top or each other 
B ...run the second layer vertically


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## superseal

I've been using Tri-built...The high performance I trust because I've had first hand experience although builder grade 15 I'm not so sure. 

The HP is slippery as chit, but waterproof and strong as hell. The 15 has better grip, but questionable if it gets blasted with heavy rain.

The 15 is also half the cost...


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## roof-lover

Well I need water-tight and grippy!!
So it sounds like tru-built is out.

I say the best underlayment is
1.Atlas 15# 226
2. Atlas 30# 226
3. Atlas gorilla Guard
4 Gaf-elk Tiger paw
For steep roofs only because of its superior grip and light weight.

You might ask why I think the 30 is inferior to the 15.
Because if the roof is not installed the same day as the underlayment, the significant morning wrinkles in the felt
have a hard time of laying down flat.
And it cost double due to using twice as much.

I just love Atlas 15# 226.
I love the heavy asphalt saturated felt.
I love how you can hear it loudly crackling as you unroll it. How it's so grippy!
My men and I never have to worry about slipping.
I love how the shingles stick to it and how it blocks out water just like ice and water shield!

I wanted to love the synthetic,
How light it is, how fast you can install it, how flat it always is, how long you can leave it exposed....
But seeing for myself it's non-waterproofing 
ability after the roof is installed
Is an extreme deal breaker for me!!!

Heavy asphalt saturated felt blocks out leaks!!!

All these contractors trusting the synthetic for all their roofs will have a very rude awakening in the future.


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## VinylHanger

Why would your roof need a waterproof underlayment after it is shingled?


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## philcav7

VinylHanger said:


> Why would your roof need a waterproof underlayment after it is shingled?




You shouldn't, but it's piece of mind. 

I don't do much roofing, but have used UDL30 on the last few. I was happy with it. Nailed down fast, strong as hell, and great traction wet or dry.


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## VinylHanger

I couldn't imagine going back to felt. The savings in time, labor and hassle is worth paying the premium. Even if I can't get it in my price, which I always have, I would eat it and use it anyway.

I had used synthetics for a while, then went and helped a buddy felt in a roof with 30 lb. Man, I had forgotten how much it sucked.

I have been trying to remember the stuff I get from the local yard, but it seems pretty awesome compared to the tribuilt stuff. You can just shoot it down with a roofing gun and zip right along. The tribuilt is fine, I've had it weather a few heavy rains with no problem, but I wouldn't want to leave any of them for too long. But with felt, I always felt that there was going to be open areas, or small cracks or tears. The synthetic is more like a tarp and I feel better with it.


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## PatChap

Yeah I can't imagine going back to using felt. I don't need to paper every roof for warranty or building code, the manufacturer I use only requires it to 7/12 and code only requires that the eaves are covered.
But ever since synthetics have became popular its hard to find a reason not to, we mostly use rhino and have had it open through severe downpours and high winds with no issues. We gun it down and if its getting left overnight it gets cap nailed for cheap security.
Synthetics are great. I sleep much better with a house under them than with stapled #15.


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## red_cedar

For us it's the cheaper synthetics for asphalt roofs. 'Cover pro' is a pretty good one.
For metal we use 'Palisade' very grip-able surface even when wet.

I 've been using synthetics since the late 90's under metal, with no reported problems from the roof owners. To be fair though, not hearing anything doesn't always mean its problem free. Ive always wondered about most of the synthetics perm ratings.

The size of the roll will determine what underlayment we use, IMO many of the rolls out there are just to large to handle well. Around the 40" size roll is as big as we go.


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## dougger222

We ran CT Roofer Select for several years. The price went up and up and the quality seemed to go down and down. 

We do either basic 15 pound or Rino synthetic.

Over the years have ran into some horrible 15 pound felt. 

Don't do many 4 Star roofs anymore so switched to Henry ice and water shield. Nothing worse than doing a tear off where every shingle stuck to the CT Winterguard. Only time will tell how they stick to the Henry. Our supplier sells the 2sq Henry at $40 a roll.


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## Roland Langlois

*The best underlayment*

I've tried a lot of them, and been able to compare most.
IF you are not overly concerned about the price, a couple of guys mentioned CertainTeed diamond deck!! seems to be a great product!

I've had Gaf Deck armour last for 2 years once with no problem. 

if you want to save a bit on the spending, there is IKO Stormtite which is what I'm using now with no problems!

Here is the issue:

You cant staple it and expect it not to leak!
Use hand nails any you shouldn't have a problem, at works gun nails (you really need to adjust the gun so it doesn't tear)

note: most of these synthetics have a line that looks like the overlap line printed on them about 4 inches from the edges, that is deceiving because in the instructions it requires an overlap of greater than 6"
watch for that, in heavy winds a 4" lap will most likely leak
aim for 8" or more nailed at least every 8" and you should not have a problem.

use a synthetic that looks and feels good lol... the cheap ones look cheap and feel cheap, and tear super easy... those leak, but if you shingle it in the same day... still no problems

Good luck


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