# Saying it without saying it.



## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

Heya guys. 

So I'm trying to get an edge over one of my competitors. A siding contractor who had an established business handed to him (He's the owner/carpenter with about 6 months actual construction experience).

He managed to somehow talk the local Home Hardware into letting him be their installer.

I'd like to try and steal that away, but I'm not the kind of guy to talk crap about someone else. Anyone know of a way to say someone has no experience without actually saying it? if you know what I mean.


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## duburban (Apr 10, 2008)

SamM said:


> Heya guys.
> 
> So I'm trying to get an edge over one of my competitors. A siding contractor who had an established business handed to him (He's the owner/carpenter with about 6 months actual construction experience).
> 
> ...


"when that doesn't work out, you should call me" ?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i'd just assume have a guy talk crap [your words] about me directly instead of insinuating it like a punk..jmho


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## SC sawdaddy (Oct 15, 2008)

SamM said:


> Heya guys.
> 
> I'd like to try and steal that away, but I'm not the kind of guy to talk crap about someone else.


:blink:

Wow! Really?


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

Maybe just make your pitch, how many years in the business, list of satisfied customers etc. and ask if their current installer can offer the same kind of track record or just leave him out of it entirely (prob.best I don't think much of folks who tear down others, even when they think they are being "subtle" (sneaky)).


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> i'd just assume have a guy talk crap [your words] about me directly instead of insinuating it like a punk..jmho


I guess that's kind of like French benefits.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Talking chit about the competition just makes you look bad, IMHO. Sell your self and your company, let your work, portfolio and rep do the talking


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## Spaint90 (Dec 26, 2011)

Why do people think the best way to make themselves look good is to trash a competitor? Thats like going up up to a girl who is out with her boyfriend, pulling her aside and telling her he sucks then that she should date you. You look like an idiot, not to mention the hardware store could like the guy. Now you have the potential to burn two bridges; the hardware store and the competitor. Think about it.

What jaws said.


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## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

Just let them know that you are there if they need a second option, just in case their primary gets too busy to keep up, or is not living up to their expectations.

Start shopping there, make friends with the employees, always be professional, and remind them on occassion that you would like to work with them.


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## daddyrabbit (Jun 14, 2012)

Never bad mouth other contractors- you may need them in some capacity in the future.


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

Did you want this before he had it?

Good Luck
Dave


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. My issue is that there is no way in the course of the discussion my competitor won't come up. I don't talk crap. but if I start pushing on how much experience I have, It may come up on how much experience he doesn't have. If you understand my drift.

I'm not looking for a subtle way to trash my competitor. I'm looking for a tactful way to be honest when the issue arises in conversation.

And the issue is certain to arise, since I used to work for the original company years ago (thats how I know how much experience He has). See, The company used to belong to a buddy of mine. This buddy did Home Hardware installs for a different Home Hardware. I actually worked with him on one of the installs he did for them.
When he closed up shop and gave it to the new kid, new kid got the first HH by default. good for him, I didn't want that one (too much travel). I just want to get the local one from him. So If I start telling the local store that I worked on Home Install projects, then the subject is pretty sure to come up. 

A little clearer?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

When your selling you are driving the conversation therefore done correctly your competitor will not come up and you will not look like the petty pos you sort of sound like. :thumbsup:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

SamM said:


> Heya guys.
> 
> So I'm trying to get an edge over one of my competitors. A siding contractor who had an established business handed to him (He's the owner/carpenter with about 6 months actual construction experience).
> 
> ...


Just what Jaws said, the only way to get anywhere in this business is to act and represent yourself and your work in a professional manner.:thumbsup:


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

It's fair enough to tell them you want their business, fair enough to outline why it would be good for you and them, you are not qualified to speak for (about) the competition.

There is no way to express your opinion about the other guy with out sounding like you are trashing him for your own benefit. It will always be tainted.

Good Luck
Dave


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Jaws said:


> Talking chit about the competition just makes you look bad, IMHO. Sell your self and your company, let your work, portfolio and rep do the talking


how the heck does this one



Tom Struble said:


> i'd just assume have a guy talk crap [your words] about me directly instead of insinuating it like a punk..jmho


get more thanks than this one?:blink:


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

Drop off a nice portfolio of your work and qualifications, tell them you'd like an opportunity to quote on a job or two if the other guy is busy or the if customer wants a second price. If they're open to that discussion, suggest setting up a display with brochures and business cards for customers to take with them.


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## Gary H (Dec 10, 2008)

Let him cause the problems that are sure to come up, from having little experice in the business world. Then at the right time show up and say that you would be interested in how to become a installer for the store. Don't let on that you know anything about the installer they have now.


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## daddyrabbit (Jun 14, 2012)

If the contractor in question comes up in conversation, you could tactfully acknowledge you are friends and maybe some history. But do not bad mouth-control the conversation and make your sale with referrels/pictures.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

SamM said:


> I don't talk crap


hmmm...:innocent:



SamM said:


> A siding contractor who had an established business handed to him (He's the owner/carpenter with about 6 months actual construction experience).





SamM said:


> Anyone know of a way to say someone has no experience without actually saying it? if you know what I mean.





SamM said:


> It may come up on how much experience he doesn't have


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## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

Tom Struble said:


> how the heck does this one
> 
> 
> 
> get more thanks than this one?:blink:


he spelled "crap" right 
you spelled " chit" wrong

o the subject:
i never trash someone else , and even when i come to a clietns home and see really crappy work that was done . i don`t say anything negative 
one : they might have done it themselves . or " dad" or someone they know could have done it 
2_ they obviously called me because f that bad work , so nothing nees to be said

if your trying to get your foot in the door . tell them that 
ask them if they would be intersted in trying you out , maybe at cost.

as for your "but if I start pushing on how much experience I have, It may come up on how much experience he doesn't have. If you understand my drift."- comment 
are you kidding . ?
you have to sell yourself 
if that makes someone else look bad inadvertantly . thats exactly what you want.
you want to be better than the other guy !
you want them to know that your better than the last guy!
if you don`t sound any different , than why should they even consider trying you , when they have the other guy ?
its not conceited , or arrogant , if your stating the facts that you feel you bring more to the plate.
when you get your shot , you better make them believe they are getting leaps and bounds more


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## Spike7 (May 18, 2012)

or sadly , but realistically , maybe there`s a pay-off going on 
its been done for years .
maybe he`s handing the supervisor in charge , who works for a base weekly pay, a nice plump envelope , even though the guy isn`t as good ,or any cheaper.
that super has no reason to go to you , and lose his cash cow.
i hate that game , but i`ve lost jobs because of it many times , because i don`t play it.
and if your that kind of " nice guy" whoo is worried about the other guys feelings , than most likely , your not the kind of guy who will line that supers pocket , because its beneath you.
the super will not let you know .
he`ll listen to your speel 
say " thanks , we`ll take it under consideration "
shake your hand , and toss your proposal in the trash can when you walk out .
nice guys are looked at as fools and suckers in business.
just saying , its a possibility


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> how the heck does this one
> 
> 
> 
> get more thanks than this one?:blink:


I'm not sure everyone was able to translate the expression "I'd just assume..." to "I'd just as soon..."


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## daddyrabbit (Jun 14, 2012)

Unfortunately business, like life, isn't fair. 
Also, when I bid a job on -say a tiled bath in a spec home, and I start talking with the client about the shower problems. They will usually be the one to start laying blame at the contractor who built and sold the spec home- thats when I remind them that its difficult for contractors to police all the subs and inspect the correct materials are being applied in the work. 
Let your references and past work do the talking...


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## Astrix (Feb 23, 2009)

The easy answer is to forget Home Hardware and go get yourself an install deal with Loews, Home Depot or Rona.

But on the topic of stealing away your competitor's business, I think it takes time and finesse to do this. In Dale Carnegie's book ""How To Win Friends and Influence People", one of the key points is that you have to find out what the other person wants/needs and then you have to fulfill that want/need for them." With respect to competition, you have to fulfill the customer's want/need better than the next guy, or at least you have to make the customer believe that you can do it better.

You first need to develop a relationship with the manager or decision-maker at HH, such as by phoning once a week and just asking how HIS business is doing. Don't have an agenda yet; the only purpose is to build a rapport and level of familiarity. 

Once a comfortable routine of touching base has been reached, then start digging a bit deeper. Find out what his issues are and offer minor suggestions. If he brings up a situation to do with installs, you should first agree with him and then suggest an improvement that shows off your experience. This needs to be done with finesse. You don't want to be insulting his decision to hire the first installer; and, as you already wrote, you don't want to talk "crap" about the other guy. You'll say something like: "Joe, you know in the 25 years I've been doing business, I've often seen situations like this and found that a good way to handle it would be .... blah, blah, blah (and now you wow him with your knowledge level). If the other guy is incompetent, there should be plenty of opportunities to offer advice on problems.

Sooner or later, the HH manager will be thinking to switch installers and hopefully offer it to you. The trick is to make it think it was his idea.

If he does directly ask you for your opinion on the other guy, just directly tell him "I don't talk about my competition; neither bad nor good; it's a matter of professional business principle. However, if you want to know ways to qualify install guys, I'll gladly give you some things to look out for and questions to ask." Then take the time to teach him how to qualify your specific trade. Of course, you'll want to include the numbers of years of actual personal experience as opposed to how long the business has been incorporated.

Stealing competitor's existing business, especially larger ongoing accounts, is difficult. It takes time, patience and a lot of subtle finesse.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

txgencon said:


> I'm not sure everyone was able to translate the expression "I'd just assume..." to "I'd just as soon..."


oh yea..ok that makes sense:thumbsup:


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## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

Tom Struble said:


> how the heck does this one
> 
> 
> 
> get more thanks than this one?:blink:


I'll send you a thanks


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

Apparently saying I didn't want to trash this guy means I want to trash him?

I'm asking for advice on how to deal with a situation. I assumed that since I know this guy the issue would come up in conversation. NOT THAT I WOULD BRING IT UP. geez.

I wouldn't define this as talking crap, since I have given you guys no details that would let you figure out who he is. I'm asking advice on a situation.

For all those who gave a serious helpful reply, thanks.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

NICE POST- I'd forget about trying to steal his work. How would you feel if he tries stealing your work? Just go find your own work.

NOT NICE POST- You say he's not qualified, but I doubt you have either your carpentry license for the siding or your roofing license for roofing. Yes?

Don't bash someone when you yourself have shortcomings. :no:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

SamM said:


> Apparently saying I didn't want to trash this guy means I want to trash him?
> 
> 
> 
> For all those who gave a serious helpful reply, thanks.


your welcome:thumbup:


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## WarriorWithWood (Jun 30, 2007)

Well why are you asking a bunch of contractors that have surely had sh!t talked about them in the past how to do it to another "brother"? 

Try a Hardware Owner site and ask them what they'd like to hear and you might get a different reply.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Tom Struble said:


> how the heck does this one
> 
> 
> 
> get more thanks than this one?:blink:


Hey, I thanked that post :thumbsup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i didn't say yours wasn't good:no:,just some like to play favorites on here..you know who you are


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Tom Struble said:


> i didn't say yours wasn't good:no:,just some like to play favorites on here..you know who you are


Ah, your my favorite tom :thumbsup:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i know:clap:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

If I spent my time telling people how terrible the work performed by the other companies they hired actually is, I'd have no time to grow my own business.


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> If I spent my time telling people how terrible the work performed by the other companies they hired actually is, I'd have no time to grow my own business.


Hey Bam, what exactly are you feeding that company to make it grow?:laughing:


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## Astrix (Feb 23, 2009)

It seems like I am one of the very few who don't see any harm in SamM's original post. Maybe it's because I am in a supportive position to the construction industry (insurance provider) and not actually a contractor or trade; therefore, I am not threatened by another contractor asking for ways to "steal" business.

If one thinks about it, any job that any contractor has ever been awarded has been "stolen" away from a competitor. SamM is asking how to do this in an ethical manner. 

Sure, at first it might seem like he is jealous of the less-experienced guy's easy success at snagging a good deal with HH, but on second look he strikes me like a guy who doesn't want to easily give up if there is a way to turn the situation around to his favour; and he wants to do it the right way. He wants to learn from the respected contractors on this site.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

well good luck with that last part

so if this was an insurance forum and one broker wanted to know how to steal from another you have no problems with it?


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## CSB (Nov 17, 2007)

SamM said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear enough. My issue is that there is no way in the course of the discussion my competitor won't come up. I don't talk crap. but if I start pushing on how much experience I have, It may come up on how much experience he doesn't have. If you understand my drift.
> 
> I'm not looking for a subtle way to trash my competitor. I'm looking for a tactful way to be honest when the issue arises in conversation.
> 
> ...


You engage the prospect and get them to answer "Yes" to questions that make your business favorable. "Mr. Smith, is it important to you to have a contractor with over 10 years experience?" "Is it important that your contractor be able to provide a list of customer testimonials and trade references upon your request?" Think of the weaknesses you see in your competitor and the strengths you feel you possess and ask questions to create positive affirmations. Then you close it with "Mr. Smith, I'm confident that our company offers everything you're looking for in a contractor, and we would be an excellent fit for your remodel/installation/addition." Then you leave your company portfolio with them so they have an anchor to remind them that you are the measure which other contractors will be compared to.


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## Astrix (Feb 23, 2009)

I would probably have written the same post I wrote above, but amended it a bit to suit the insurance industry. 

No one here knows me personally and any opinions of me are based on the couple of hundred posts I have made over the last few years. So, I'm not sure if the following will appear to make me arrogant. I'll take a chance and hope I am not misunderstood.

I have enough confidence in my experience and strong client relationships that I don't worry about other brokers trying to wedge in and take some of my clients. If a competing broker brings up reasons why they are better than me, then I have rebuttal answers of my own as to why I am actually better than them. If the concerns are valid and I lose the account, then that's fair. If they other broker libels me undeservedly, that that's not ethical. Win some, lose some. That's business.

I think this is one of those cases where if one doesn't choose one's words carefully, then the message one is trying to get across gets jumbled. Another word should have been used instead of "steal" as that implies something unethical. I am just trying to look past the poor choice of words and give the OP the benefit of the doubt that his intentions are not dishonourable.


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## CSB (Nov 17, 2007)

Astrix said:


> I would probably have written the same post I wrote above, but amended it a bit to suit the insurance industry.
> 
> No one here knows me personally and any opinions of me are based on the couple of hundred posts I have made over the last few years. So, I'm not sure if the following will appear to make me arrogant. I'll take a chance and hope I am not misunderstood.
> 
> ...


I think this is how it should be, and it's not arrogant at all. If you're doing things right then you should be able to go on a sales call with the exact attitude you have.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

Astrix said:


> I would probably have written the same post I wrote above, but amended it a bit to suit the insurance industry.
> 
> No one here knows me personally and any opinions of me are based on the couple of hundred posts I have made over the last few years. So, I'm not sure if the following will appear to make me arrogant. I'll take a chance and hope I am not misunderstood.
> 
> ...


well yea but that is really not the point,point is he asked us how to ''steal'',now i understand he may have used the wrong words but i would hope you can understand why some would like to point that out to him


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## SamM (Dec 13, 2009)

I knew I needed to work on my communication abilities, But I didn't realize it was this bad.

Astrix has it right on. I phrased it horribly but I was merely looking on advice to handle a situation. "Steal" was the wrong word. I commonly use the word in conversation ("Let me steal some of those fries", ect) so I guess thats why I used it without realizing how everyone would take it.

Anyways. Glad for the advice that actually helped in this situation. Glad for the advice from those who misunderstood me, all learning is good. Always looking to grow.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

we know you didn't mean it:thumbup:


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

CSB said:


> You engage the prospect and get them to answer "Yes" to questions that make your business favorable. "Mr. Smith, is it important to you to have a contractor with over 10 years experience?" "Is it important that your contractor be able to provide a list of customer testimonials and trade references upon your request?" Think of the weaknesses you see in your competitor and the strengths you feel you possess and ask questions to create positive affirmations. Then you close it with "Mr. Smith, I'm confident that our company offers everything you're looking for in a contractor, and we would be an excellent fit for your remodel/installation/addition." Then you leave your company portfolio with them so they have an anchor to remind them that you are the measure which other contractors will be compared to.


Something makes me think you used to sell timeshares.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i'm ready to buy:thumbup:


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## ROVACON (Apr 19, 2010)

I vote to hire Tom to deliver your message. He can tell the guy he sucks using emoticons only :laughing: :shifty:


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

:scooter:


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## CSB (Nov 17, 2007)

txgencon said:


> Something makes me think you used to sell timeshares.


Nope, I've never sold anything outside of the construction industry.


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## Mr Latone (Jan 8, 2011)

Well, according to the original post, you won't have to 'splain to the local HH how the guy has no experience. You sound convinced he will fall flat on his face and won't be able to manage to perform to the required level. He will deliver the message in person.



Get your qualifications at the disposal of the HH. If you speak the truth, they will be looking for a qualified installer in very short order.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

txgencon said:


> I'm not sure everyone was able to translate the expression "I'd just assume..." to "I'd just as soon..."


I've been on this forum so long, I read it as the latter without skipping a beat. I didn't even have to pause and reread like I do for where, were, we're, etc sometimes.

That is a little worrisome. :sad:


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

SamM said:


> For all those who gave a serious helpful reply, thanks.


How will we know who's who? We all assume Tom was helpful, it's a given. But I'd like to see a list.


Good Luck
Dave


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

very funny


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

sorry for ruining you guyses brains:sad:


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## Astrix (Feb 23, 2009)

Whew! Good thing I'm not a guyses. My brain is safe (for now). 

:thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :clap: <--- I'm a quick learner too.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

somebody's gotta dumb this place down alittle so it's fair for everybody:clap:


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## CompleteW&D (May 28, 2011)

Tom Struble said:


> sorry for ruining you guyses brains:sad:


Tom.... mine was in ruins LONG before I stumbled upon this forum and befriended you. :blink: But thanks for the apology just the same. Now I can relax and get back to doing what ever it is I do.... :wheelchair:


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

What you want to do is called "ghosting" your competition. Many have said the basics already, but if you know the guy is always late for appointments, then you mention that you pride yourself on being early or on time. If you know he hires day labor, you mention that you have full time employees and never hire unqualified day labor. And so on. Never mention anything about the competition, just mention attributes you have (opposite of his) that will show you in a good light when THEY do the comparison themselves.


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

Tom Struble said:


> how the heck does this one
> 
> 
> 
> get more thanks than this one?:blink:


"Thanks" envy Tom?:laughing:


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