# Luan Under Sheet Vinyl?



## PrecisionFloors

BKM Resilient said:


> ************************************
> Backhand opinion?
> 
> No, if that's how you read it please allow me to correct that. It's *FORE*hand opinion and NOTHING "out of the box" whatsoever with regard to the use of substandard underlayment for resilient floors.
> 
> Doesn't matter to me if you're laying the cheapest peel n stick tiles or the top of the line sheet vinyl. Prep is prep and skimping or using substandard materials or workmanship is the SCOURGE of our industry.
> 
> I tried to be clear that for many years and in many markets they used to and STILL to this day use inferior, substandard underlayment like modern day luan, Masonite and particle board. Under perfect conditions and absent normal stress those products can work.
> 
> Like I said above. You COULD give the car keys to a 16 year old, hand him a six pack of beer and a wad of condoms and hope for the best.
> 
> Most of the time by far he'll come home alive and well.
> 
> What could possibly go wrong?


To add to that - what a lot of people don't realize, is the cheaper, thinner products, actually are more sensitive to prep. Thin peel and stick will literally show a piece of sand under it, where a thicker gauge expensive piece of sheet vinyl is a bit more forgiving. I personally think prep is what separates the journeyman mechanics from the true floor artists. Especially with resilient. If every floor man had to put in a few years laying vinyl before moving on, it would further his knowledge on floors as a whole by leaps and bounds.


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## tenon0774

BKM Resilient said:


> ************************************
> Backhand opinion?
> 
> No, if that's how you read it please allow me to correct that. It's *FORE*hand opinion and NOTHING "out of the box" whatsoever with regard to the use of substandard underlayment for resilient floors.
> 
> 
> *"Hey Radio Shack,
> ...Relax."*
> 
> Doesn't matter to me if you're laying the cheapest peel n stick tiles or the top of the line sheet vinyl. Prep is prep and skimping or using substandard materials or workmanship is the SCOURGE of our industry.
> 
> *Yeah, it is. All through the trades. I just asked a question based on what I thought "might" work, and you took it as an oppurtunity to launch a diatribe on:
> 
> "How we have to maintain our professional standards, with the sub-standard crap that we have to choose from."*
> 
> 
> I tried to be clear that for many years and in many markets they used to and STILL to this day use inferior, substandard underlayment like modern day luan, Masonite and particle board. Under perfect conditions and absent normal stress those products can work.




I'm sure there are several other threads for that.

I was just trying to stay on topic.


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## hdavis

One more time. No core gaps. You can get a clue about this by looking at the edges of the lift of ply, check by cutting it up into pieces. No bubbling / delamination when wetted - should be type one glue. BB surface. Hardwood.

It doesn't matter much what it is from there, as long as it meets the needs.

For "Luan", I haven't found anything around here in the past few years that meets all that, except marine grade Meranti, which is pricey.


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## BoGoCo

We sell a ton of Ultra Ply to our installers, the price difference between laun and ultra ply is $6 a sheet.


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## BKM Resilient

BoGoCo said:


> We sell a ton of Ultra Ply to our installers, the price difference between laun and ultra ply is $6 a sheet.


.18 a foot upgrade if we're talking the same 4x8 sheets. 

that's still a 3-ply, right? So if I'm not mistaken it may still be considered substandard if you ever went into litigation. 

there's certainly a market for that

............peel 'n stick tile, low end felt back residential vinyl

Yeah, it's crazy to spend more on prep and labor than the material is worth but in a cheap, cheaper, cheapest "builder grade" market that's what the market will bear. 

It's really only worth sweating over warranty issues where the material costs are mid to premium range at least. 

So let's say an average day of flat lay residential vinyl is 40 square yards all said and done. That's 360 square feet. So using the cheaper luan an installer piece working and furnishing his own plywood can pocket $65 a day. 

This applies where that $65 is not or can not be passed on to the consumer----------no one explains that difference or offers the mid-grade underlayment. 

5-ply is what the "official" standards call for from everything I've researched...........as if!


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## BKM Resilient

hdavis said:


> One more time. No core gaps. You can get a clue about this by looking at the edges of the lift of ply, check by cutting it up into pieces. No bubbling / delamination when wetted - should be type one glue. BB surface. Hardwood.
> 
> It doesn't matter much what it is from there, as long as it meets the needs.
> 
> For "Luan", I haven't found anything around here in the past few years that meets all that, except marine grade Meranti, which is pricey.


Right, "luan" doesn't necessarily mean it's crap. There are still high grades products on the market that WOULD perform outstandingly. But that's not what's going out as an underlayment product for standard installations. Installers and consumers need to understand these subtle distinctions.

To me it's like buying tires for your car. When I was single, crazy, young and brave I bought cheap, used tires or whatever was on sale. As I got older, had a family and starting using my brain a little I realized it's a foolish game to gamble on your safety and security. 

Didn't make sense to me to put $300 tires on a car I bought for $50. Now I don't buy cars to run into the ground-----BEATERS just for work. A family car runs $20K and up and the tires cost a small fortune as well when they need to be replaces. But that's the cost of traveling. 

Everything is relative.


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## BKM Resilient

PrecisionFloors said:


> To add to that - what a lot of people don't realize, is the cheaper, thinner products, actually are more sensitive to prep. Thin peel and stick will literally show a piece of sand under it, where a thicker gauge expensive piece of sheet vinyl is a bit more forgiving. I personally think prep is what separates the journeyman mechanics from the true floor artists. Especially with resilient. If every floor man had to put in a few years laying vinyl before moving on, it would further his knowledge on floors as a whole by leaps and bounds.


I run into that on low bid commercial production work. VCT is particularly unforgiving. Yet as the cheapest possible floor------even cheaper than polished concrete I believe no one wants to pony up what it takes to prep a typical (horrible) concrete slab. 

I was doing a big rubber tile job and had be prepping for about 2-weeks when the concrete polishers came in to work the corridors, library, museum display areas of the college. As they were working I realized that what they were doing with all the heavy equipment was superior to what I was doing with hand grinders, floor sanders and floor patch. 

Logic is not the rule of the day. Where they try to save a dime it winds up costing a buck. 

penny wise pound foolish is how the Brits phrase it

I'd LOVE to know what the range of prices are for a polished and sealed slab on new work.


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## hdavis

BKM Resilient said:


> Didn't make sense to me to put $300 tires on a car I bought for $50.


LOL, I've always done it the other way around. The tires keep you on the road - better to have $300 tires on a $50 car than $50 tires on a $300 car:laughing:

Brakes always came next...

Same with underlay - you better have good underlay, because what goes over it is no better than the underlay. IMHO, bubbling / delam is the worst - you find it after the install.

The only other thing I'll mention is even reputable plywood manufacturers have been having problems with the new glues. I think there can be good and bad lifts of any ply out there, unless it's really high grade.


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## BoGoCo

BKM Resilient said:


> .18 a foot upgrade if we're talking the same 4x8 sheets.
> 
> that's still a 3-ply, right?


No, wrong http://www.morelandcompany.com/ultraplyXL.htm 

This is 5 ply, the $6 difference that I referred to were both 4x8 sheets.


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## Spencer

Thanks for all the good info. Very interesting hearing what you pro full time installers have to say.


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## Floormasta78

3/8 particle board is recommended by most if not all manufacturers.. I know that's the guidelines that we were set by Armstrong


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## GO Remodeling

Particle board?


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## Floormasta78

Yes... Because of it's very smooth finish, there's less prep work, not even the need to skim coat IF you screw it down . Now i know what you are thinking.. It's up to you that you bolt down that toilet and put a new wax ring so it does not leak


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## GO Remodeling

Armstrong says particle board for Interflex and perimeter bond goods.

Plywood can be used for all.


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## Floormasta78

Yes, i agree.. And no argument there..


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## rusty baker

I'll pass on the particle board.


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## PrecisionFloors

rusty baker said:


> I'll pass on the particle board.


Same here. I don't want that sh!t anywhere near anything I'm putting a warranty on - to hell with what the manufacturer says. Just because it _can_ be used doesn't mean it should. You _can_ technically use $6/bag thinset with ceramic over slab too, but I don't


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## MIKE ANTONETTI

I just gotta tell, I've got an old 92 RV I bought from a friend for 1k $ because the roof leaks, so I went to RV repair shop, they told me in a lengthy conversation how to repair it selling all materials or they would do it for a hefty price, so they were going on about replacing wood and said they use lauan, I said oh my , no way in heck I would put that material under anything that is notorious for leaking, then had certified RV repairman come over and he said same thing.
On the other end that's what our retailer uses , it's light, easy to cut, and provides a flat surface. We nail it like crazy or it will hump up.


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## rusty baker

Testing to see if I can post.


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## Leo G

Well, can you?

:whistling


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## hdavis

No answer, I guess he can't:laughing:


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## rusty baker

For a couple of weeks, I couldn't post at all.


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## jlsconstruction

rusty baker said:


> For a couple of weeks, I couldn't post at all.


Did you get :ban:


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## rusty baker

jlsconstruction said:


> Did you get :ban:


Nope, they did an update and screwed up a lot of stuff.


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## A&E Exteriors

I used 1/4" sandply in my little kitchen...acceptable?

I don't know gonna cut in my sheet tomorrow.


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## WarriorWithWood

My supplier writes "Not For Underlayment" on every receipt that has Luan on it.


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