# Is this NORMAL in this business?



## Brendakeen (Oct 30, 2006)

As a newby, I wanted to get another reality check from you guys. 

Is it normal to have the demo crew just cut through wires, swear they didn't and then sheepishly admit it after you have searched through the attic for an hour to find a live cut wire dangling in midair?

Also, is it normal to have the other trades nick the crap out of your wires when working, so that you have to redo them? 

Sorry if I am bitching......I just want to see if this is normal or if I should make sure someone electrical supervises demo from now on! 

I've had this happen on three jobs in six months.... 

I've traced back at least one problem to a foreman who is no longer with us....... just wondered if others had the same problem.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

It's not "normal", but it does happen with certain frequency. That's why God invented backcharges. Document it, keep time track of it, take pictures of it, and bill / back charge for it.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Here, having locators come in prior to any work is mandatory.


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## Brendakeen (Oct 30, 2006)

*Thanks guys!*

Back charges sounds like a good idea - the problem is proving who did it. I am about 99% sure the plumbers did. I spent about 2 hours replacing what once were perfectly good wires today.........not happy! 

I also really like the idea of locators. It is not mandatory here, but it should be. It really upsets the homeowner when all of a sudden their lights no longer work after demo - and it cost us 3 hours the last time we had this issue as we had to search for the Scarlet Pimpernel amidst blown in insulation....


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Back charging is the way we used to go with damages like this. Since we started having regular meetings with our regular subs to discuss problems and solutions to those problems, this type of thing has disappeared.

But, we also do all our own demo work now as well.

Do you normally have more than one sub on the job at a time? We try to avoid doing that as our jobs seem to go more quickly if the subs have exclusive access to the job site.


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## Brendakeen (Oct 30, 2006)

*That's a great idea!*

Yes, we usually do have multiple subs on a job at the same time in order to meet schedule. You have a good point however, things would get done quicker if people didn't have to duck each other and bump into each other...

The damage I spoke of was done when there was only one sub plus our regular crew on site. 

But there was another job where the senior electrician and I were working the same day as the plumbers were - we kept having to wait until they were done with an area and vice versa, which was a pain. 

Plus, why do plumbers never clean up the job site when they are done? We ended up cleaning up after them...


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Brendakeen said:


> Plus, why do plumbers never clean up the job site when they are done? We ended up cleaning up after them...


Probably because you're paying them not to. I mean, if you don't back charge for cleanup, or state that if their mess is left then there will be a 30-60 day delay in payment, then they are essentially being paid to leave the mess. 

You can not expect some folks to do the right thing if they think no one is looking or checking up behind them. If they will act this way, take some appropriate action. Make sure there are trash cans on premises and mostly empty, make brooms and dust pans available and require them to clean up after themselves or face a back charge for cleanup.


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

Brendakeen said:


> Back charges sounds like a good idea - the problem is proving who did it.


Why do you care who did it? Send the bill to the GC to pay. It's his problem to figure out who did it and bill them accordingly. If he can't figure it out, that's his problem- not yours.

Bob


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## Brendakeen (Oct 30, 2006)

*One small problem with that...*

My husband is the GC on this job! I would LOVE to send him the bill - but we are the same cost center. 

If our crew did it, I guess I could penalize him by making him do the dishes every night this week :laughing: 

Somehow, I don't think that will fly....

I fixed it and it didn't take any of the senior electrician's time. 

Our crew and the plumbers were on the job site at the same time, so is hard to prove it was the plumbers and back charge.


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## Brendakeen (Oct 30, 2006)

*Double A - I LOVE the back charge for clean up idea!!*

Especially since we paid a senior electrician to help me clean up pieces of plumbing pipes. 

Next time, instead of being so "female" and cleaning up, I will take digital photos and send it to them with a bill.


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## Plan 9 (Oct 22, 2006)

I love all this talk about back charges. In 30 years I've never back charged a general contractor. There's always a wire cut or a box covered by drywall, I just fix it and consider it part of customer service.

I really doubt a GC would pay such a bill. GCs are all about getting you to do free work, paying extra for things they legally don't have to is contrary to their business model.

Also I've never had a GC back charge me, and I've messed up a time or two.

I think back charges are something that is often bantered about but rarely ever happens, at least on residential jobs...


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Back charges are a tool, just like a contract. If you're not using one, or taking advantage of the other, then you're just working too hard.

Don't be afraid to invoke the clauses in your contract with your subcontractors. They may not like it, but they will respect it and remember it on future jobs. Everyone need a small amount of tightening up once in a while.

Fair is fair and most folks in the construction business can deal with almost anything, as long as they are being treated fairly.


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## Brendakeen (Oct 30, 2006)

*I would agree that it is not done much in California*

But it really should be! The subs should be very happy that we (the GCs) are sending them paying work, and the least they can do is clean up after themselves. Customers HATE having their home messed up, they may not always remember if you do a good job or not, but they will DEFINITELY remember if you left their home a mess.


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## davidwright (Nov 4, 2006)

It's happened to all.locations of the mishap will show you who to back charge.Hell I just had to buy a 100.00 dollar storm door because I had two crews out and some one did'nt close it when thay left for the night


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## Plan 9 (Oct 22, 2006)

Brendakeen said:


> But it really should be! The subs should be very happy that we (the GCs) are sending them paying work


LOL! Typical GC nonsense. If we instituted a policy of back charging, GCs would go broke paying subs for the problems they create. I have wired countless walls only to have GCs rip out my wires and relocate the wall, or add a window or cut all my wires to add a beam they forgot. 

Brenda, you are an arrogant woman indeed. Your haughty attitude regarding subs and how "happy we should be" to get your work is nutty to say the least. Every speciality contractor will tell you that working for GCs is the bottom of the barrel. This notion you have that we should be grateful for the crumbs you toss us reveals much about how little you know about business in general. As subs we are providing valuable installation services for what you pay us, we feel it is an equitable exchange, we never consider ourselves lucky to get this low profit work.

Let me clue you in on something my dear, if we weren't working for you, we'd be working for someone else, you're not giving us the amazing blessing and charitable gift of work like you imagine.

Brenda, get over yourself and get some much needed perspective.

By the way, anybody that makes a mess, should clean up their mess, that's just common courtesy.


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## voltamp (Nov 30, 2004)

*Demo*

Its known as protecting your own work. Demo to some means just that, and with regrets electrical trades get screwed. You should included time in estimates for a man there, and added time for trouble shooting after demo. Add them in the bid, then when you do your review depending on the contractor, know where you can take certain monies out. 

The nature of the beast, we can yell, scream and moan, but without documentation and the strength of submitting a change or charge to the general contractor, we have no recourse.


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## woody11973 (Nov 5, 2006)

_MY CONTRACT_ that I am writing says, " $75.00 / hour to clean up " some els's mess. This should hopefully take care of cleaning up after a pig. ( Charge more than your would otherwise) If the plumber leaves something lay, I just sweap around it. " It's not my stuff". Stuff like a covered up plug or a switch, I just do as " customer service". I how yet to backcharge anyone for not doing their job. As for nicked wires, you just learn how to not GET THEM NICKED!!!


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Back charging is well and good...of course, if a crew damages something inadvertantly, then they are liable.....I think that is one of the gizmos in my insurance details. However, in demolition work. it is nearly impossible to not damage other items, plumbing, elec, hvac and ducts, etc. This should be in the bid _*before the job starts*_....and someone should have an idea of what may get damaged_* before the job starts.*_


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

What about just having a good repore(think that's how it's spelled) with the people you hire. 

I guess it never dawned on me that general would have us back if they didn't us. 

Remember that even though you're calling them a-holes when they're not listening it still shows when you're face to face, and their work habits will prove what they think of that atmosphere. I think that's why cussing at each other is a key ingredient on job sites; keeps everyone happy and with a thick skin.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Plan 9 said:


> LOL! Typical GC nonsense. If we instituted a policy of back charging, GCs would go broke paying subs for the problems they create. I have wired countless walls only to have GCs rip out my wires and relocate the wall, or add a window or cut all my wires to add a beam they forgot.
> 
> Brenda, you are an arrogant woman indeed. Your haughty attitude regarding subs and how "happy we should be" to get your work is nutty to say the least. Every speciality contractor will tell you that working for GCs is the bottom of the barrel. This notion you have that we should be grateful for the crumbs you toss us reveals much about how little you know about business in general. As subs we are providing valuable installation services for what you pay us, we feel it is an equitable exchange, we never consider ourselves lucky to get this low profit work.
> 
> ...


Come on, Plan, tell us how you really feel. Quit beating about the bush.:laughing:


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