# All trades - if you were asked for your input -



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

To all trades that go into building a house - 

You know how in commercial projects they usually seem to build men's and women's bathrooms right next to each other, back to back sharing the same wall and plumbing I would guess in order to reduce costs?

What things have you learned through experience that could reduce the cost of a house while not compromising on the quality. Say if you were able to look at preliminary plans and make suggestions for changes that would go into the final drawings?

Or in details, like ordering Hardy board pre-stained to benefit a net savings since you wouldn't have to paint it after installing it.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Mike, I can see a real can of worms being opened here. "If you were an architect, what would you do differently?" 
Are you planning on selling this info?
Let's roll with it and see what happens. I'll chime in later.


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## MasterStrokes (Feb 26, 2005)

Very interesting. When I move it would be neat to find a place with a shower and coffee pot in between the truck that’s parked next to my bed. :cheesygri


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

I work with new construction, and I have always found it a good idea to place the laundry room upstairs with the rest of the bedrooms so there is easy access to all the rooms when the laundry is done.
A bonus would be if the laundry had a door that accessed the master WIC.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I suppose that we are not to discuss 1,000 sq. ft. bathrooms with Roman tubs, 600 sq. ft showers w/his/hers entrances and 40 shower heads and 1.6 gal. per flush toilets?


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## sentry (Mar 1, 2005)

From my understanding of your post I gather that you are talking about production changes rather than design, and if so then pre-glued floor joist for the sub-flooring to adhere to or (saves the one man with the glue gun out in front of the Advantech layer), water piping that has hot and cold back to back in one stick, keep power entrance close to kitchen, make sure all subs are completely finished and do not return before doing final punch-out, have three fingers of Glenn-livit *EVERY*morning before work whether you want it or not, make it six, visit every job every day or twice a day, and oh yeah, no changes...yeah right.


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## sentry (Mar 1, 2005)

And I forgot, if your house has 140 recessed can lights for mood lighting this number can probably be reduced.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

New construction? Don't bother calling me until the roof is all framed and all penetrations are installed, and all brick surfaces which will require flashing are installed.

If the job is truly 100% ready I can probably finish in one day, but new construction usually requires 3 return visits because the builder doesn't care about my schedule.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

If you can find any info on DiVosta homes, check it out. It's the most efficient company that I have ever seen. These folks have turned homebuilding into an artform.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Florcraft said:


> I work with new construction, and I have always found it a good idea to place the laundry room upstairs with the rest of the bedrooms so there is easy access to all the rooms when the laundry is done.
> A bonus would be if the laundry had a door that accessed the master WIC.


That makes sense. In some high dollar homes, I have seen a laundry room on each floor now.

But your comments are a design issue and not a cost saving issue, unless I am missing how an upstairs laundry room would be a cost saving design versus a 1st floor one?

What about new construction in regard to flooring? What have you learned that you could pass on? For instance if the plan showed hardwood floors in the foyer and into the dining room, and tile in the 1st floor bathroom and kitchen, let's say that 60% of the 1st floor was going to not be carpeted, could you see an advantage for the builder to go to say 1 1/4 subfloor throught 1st floor instead of 3/4 and avoid installing underlayment for the tile and hardwood and get a net savings? This example is probably full of holes but just to use it as a way to help you understand what I am looking for.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

sentry said:


> and if so then pre-glued floor joist for the sub-flooring to adhere to or (saves the one man with the glue gun out in front of the Advantech layer),


What does pre-glue mean? Are you talking about gluing the subfloor in addition to nailing or something else?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Grumpy said:


> New construction? Don't bother calling me until the roof is all framed and all penetrations are installed, and all brick surfaces which will require flashing are installed.
> 
> If the job is truly 100% ready I can probably finish in one day, but new construction usually requires 3 return visits because the builder doesn't care about my schedule.


If you and I were working together and I said to you, "Grumpy, I want you to do the roof of this new house, what can I do to reduce the cost of the roof you put on for me? I don't want you to charge less or use cheaper materials, just what can I do to allow you to do this roof as cheap as possible because you can spend less time on it or because of a couple of design changes in the roof line would save a lot of money?


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## sentry (Mar 1, 2005)

Thats right Mike, my framers run titebond floor adhesive (or other floor glue) on every joist before nailing or screwing sub-floor.


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

I owned a new townhouse in the early 90's. The builder used pre-fabbed 2 x 4 floor trusses. When I asked him why he used trusses, when most other builders seemed to be using enginneered joists, he told me trusses allowed him to accomplish better ceiling lines and realize overall savings by lowering the cost of mechanical system installs.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

To add to what Pipe said above I agree, even thought his isn't my area of expertise I have see the floor trusses where slots/pockets for the mechanicals have already been shaped in the truss. Obviously for this to be possible someone needs to pre-design the locations of all the MEP's.


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## PPro (Jan 26, 2005)

I'll take a stab at it from the carpentry perspective:

The new OSB I-Beam floor joists are cheaper, as well as stronger and easier to work with...

Simple things like vinal flooring instead of hardwood or tile, painted vs stained trim, use OG profiles for you base and casing, buy metal clothes rods/shelves for the closets, they aren't as nice as well built wood ones, but they are a whole lot cheaper and some people like the look better. Plus, production trim carpenters dont do shelving worth a crap (at least in MI). There's a lot of places to cut costs, I dont know exactly how you wish to cut them (cheaper materials, cheaper labor, better methods?)


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

Alot of the builders are not putting plywood over the subfloor where carpet areas are. Only in areas where the vinyl goes.
you all probably know this, but it makes it a real strain when the client changes things out down the road.
But they will balk at the price if you add it in the construction costs.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

PPro said:


> There's a lot of places to cut costs, I dont know exactly how you wish to cut them (cheaper materials, cheaper labor, better methods?)


See, this is a tough one.

I'm looking for ways to do it better and cheaper by doing it smarter, definitly not by making somebody work for less or subbing a cheaper version of something, it a tough one, but I know everybody has learned a few trade specific things that are diamonds waiting to be mined. :Thumbs:


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

From what I can tell, cutting costs can have as much, or more, to do with reducing the duration of the build-out (ground-breaking to settlement) as it does with trade/material unit costs. It seems to me it's about coordination, coordination and coordination.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Mike if I were to be a builder, as I may someday in the next ten years, I would try to use the same subs over and over once I found good ones. That seems logical. 

Here is what also seems logical but I've never been asked in my whole life:

The builder asks the subs "Hypothetically, if I were to cater to you describe to me your perect setup. What should I do to make your life easiest?" 

How will that reduce costs you might be asking yourself. Well it might not on thr FIRST job. Let's talk second and third jobs etc... When I price new construction I always throw on an extra $300 because I know I am going to need to go back there and spend a few hours finshing some flashing at least 2 days after the bulk of the work is complete. If I had a builder who had everything ready for me before I even sent out my crew, he'd save $300 right there! BTW that $300 is for travel, setup and headache.

The post above about pre-stained cedar siding is damned true. Have you priced out what it costs to paint a whole house vs what pre-stained siding costs with a few minor touch ups? People are in awe, even some builders, when I explain that to them.


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## andrewtlocke (Mar 8, 2005)

*Drywall Installation short-cuts*

What about pre-cut drywall for the installers? That may sound outlandish, but I've thought about this time and again. The biggest waste of time is having to switch between multiple tasks: measure, cut, nail, measure, cut, nail...get this tool, get that tool...

What about getting the plans (drawings) for each space or room needing sheets installed, doing all cutting and measuring off-site, and delivering it ready for installation? So, it's more like putting a puzzle together with labeled peices that have assigned installation points? The specific peices being installed in each particular room or space could be bundled together for easy identification/installation. Is this just a pipe dream?


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

andrewtlocke said:


> What about getting the plans (drawings) for each space or room needing sheets installed, doing all cutting and measuring off-site, and delivering it ready for installation?


I think it's a pipe dream only because nothing's ever built to plan... but how about this... and remember this is coming from someone who has done drywall a few times but IS NOT a drywaller... why not pre-cut all the drywall before you even start installing it? 

Take it cut it, lean it against the wall, move to the next piece and lean that against the wall. Once all pieces are cut; start hanging. This prevents switxhing back and forth from cutting tools to hanging tools.


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## andrewtlocke (Mar 8, 2005)

*Pre-cut drywall*



Grumpy said:


> I think it's a pipe dream only because nothing's ever built to plan... but how about this... and remember this is coming from someone who has done drywall a few times but IS NOT a drywaller... why not pre-cut all the drywall before you even start installing it?
> 
> Take it cut it, lean it against the wall, move to the next piece and lean that against the wall. Once all pieces are cut; start hanging. This prevents switxhing back and forth from cutting tools to hanging tools.


Yeah, that would definitely work as well in terms of streamlining the on-site process flow...however, the benefit of getting plans, cutting sheets off-site, etc., is that the rock is cut while other services are being performed (i.e. electrical rough-in) at the job-site. So, you're ahead of the game when your crew arrives to install. If they had to cut an extra hole to allow for an added light fixture, or whatever, that's better than having to measure, cut, screw all at the job-site I think. Maybe a five day job could be whittled down to three days, even allowing for the occasional extra cut because something changed, or whatever. Still, it may be too far-fetched to be worth the trouble of setting up this type of service. I don't know. Still, it might be interesting to see of any drywall contractors or GC's bite at the idea.


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

I would think that extra cuts are fine as long as a room ends up being smaller then the plan. I think what Grumpy is alluding to is what if the room is larger say by even an inch? Then you'd have the work to cut and fit a new piece as well as the potentially wasted pre-cut piece. Most professional drywallers I've seen in action are so fast at the cutting and fitting portion of the work that I would think that putting together a "puzzle" would actually slow them down too.

Your concept is a valid one in theory. I just tend to think that it's done the way it is because it has been proven over time to be the fastest and most efficient. Most drywallers want to get in and out and then on to the next job - time is money.


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## andrewtlocke (Mar 8, 2005)

*I getcha...*



DecksEtc said:


> I would think that extra cuts are fine as long as a room ends up being smaller then the plan. I think what Grumpy is alluding to is what if the room is larger say by even an inch? Then you'd have the work to cut and fit a new piece as well as the potentially wasted pre-cut piece. Most professional drywallers I've seen in action are so fast at the cutting and fitting portion of the work that I would think that putting together a "puzzle" would actually slow them down too.
> 
> Your concept is a valid one in theory. I just tend to think that it's done the way it is because it has been proven over time to be the fastest and most efficient. Most drywallers want to get in and out and then on to the next job - time is money.


I getcha... :Thumbs:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

In regard to saving money in foundations there seems to be a lot of old shool vs new school or even old wives tales maybe would be a better way of putting it.

What do you think about -

It's cheaper to cut control joints in a slab after the cure then tool them during the pour?

What about eliminating wire mesh in a slab and replacing it with a synthetic fiber additive to the mix? It's my understanding that wire mesh is only effective against shrinkage cracks and does nothing for structure, (yes it will hold a slab together if it fractures, but wouldn't any slab that fractures badly enough for the mesh to come into play have to be replaced anyways) and only effective if unstalled correctly which means higher labor to do it right to get it in the top 1/3 portion of the slab using masonary chairs. Doesn't fiber reinforcement control shrinkage cracking more effectively and requires no additional labor or cost of wire mesh?


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

I've heard, but haven't seen examples, that with the right fiber-mesh mix-design you can go as far as to eliminate both welded-wire-fabric reinforcement as well as control joints. A good ready-mix supplier could probably best expand on that concept.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Funny that this should come up as I just read an article on the new concrete mixes. From what I understand, Pipe and Mike are right. No reinforcement required.
There is also a 'porous' concrete for parking areas/driveways that lets the water through. It lowers the runoff and the demand for storm drains.


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## magnum (Jan 29, 2005)

I have had 2 jobs with fiberglass in the concrete. 1st job 4" garage slab installed about 5 yrs. ago w/wire mess and fiberglass, it crack. 3 major cracks run the length of the garage and have begun to spider. The contractor I found to be a lieing crook. My new contractor uses #4 rebar 24" oc, wire mess and fiber glass in all slabs. IMO cant do concrete slabs without rebar and wire.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

As an electrician, I can only comment on things the GC can do to keep my costs down. One would be to have the site truely "ready" for me. This means nobody else working in the house. Stuff not stacked all over the place, since I need to be everywhere. Ideally, the place will be empty and the floor reasonably clean. Meet with me when I get there first thing in the morning for a quick walk through, and then disappear. Have the kitchen layout marked off on the floor, and have the bath vanity(ies) marked off if there is one. Please tell me where you wish to have the bath fan exhausts exit, and think about this ahead of time. I'll need to know if and where you want phone and cable. If you don't care, tell me so and I'll decide myself. Recessed lights are nice, but they slow me way down. Judicious use of recessed cans should be a priority if you want to keep the costs low. I need to know exactly where the water heater, outdoor ac unit, furnace/air handler and similar equipment will sit. If there's any receptacle or switch that must be in a certain place for some reason, I need to know up front. Otherwise, I'll put it where it pleases me within code. Changing things that are already wired takes 10x longer than putting it where you wanted it in the first place. 

Someone mentioned the open web 2x4 truss joists. These are great for me for wiring a home with a basement. I don't have to drill holes in these, so the rough wiring goes way faster. Plumber's and HVAC men like the open web truss joists too.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

magnum said:


> 4" garage slab installed about 5 yrs. ago w/wire mess and fiberglass, it crack. 3 major cracks run the length of the garage and have begun to spider.


Hmmm..... a 4" slab is an IRC code violation for a garage slab, isn't it??


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

How about making bedrooms no wider than 12 foot wide.
and hallways no more than 12 foot long.
in fact, keep all rooms no more than 12 foot wide. It would make the carpet install go alot faster.


oh yea...they are called mobile homes


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

How did I miss this thread?

Cheap is my middle name:cheesygri Just ask my ex-wives, they'll be happy to show ya thier old dime store rings.

Save money? Pay a little more than the going rate to all installers, they'll be in a little less pinch to get it done = less mistakes and a better product.

Bob


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

md, you're asking for a contractors utopia. Even DiVosta isn't this good.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

magnum said:


> I have had 2 jobs with fiberglass in the concrete. 1st job 4" garage slab installed about 5 yrs. ago w/wire mess and fiberglass, it crack. 3 major cracks run the length of the garage and have begun to spider. The contractor I found to be a lieing crook. My new contractor uses #4 rebar 24" oc, wire mess and fiber glass in all slabs. IMO cant do concrete slabs without rebar and wire.



oops, should have been more specific - I'm talking only about slabs such as slab on grade foundations for houses only, not the garage slabs were there is going to be more freeze/thaw issues and weight bearing issues - just talking about house foundation slabs.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

MDshunk - I guess I assumed you guys were given a wiring diagram ahead of time with every outlet, switch and can marked, along with everything else. Is it fair to say that often new construction electricians are left more to wing it then build it to plans?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Florcraft said:


> How about making bedrooms no wider than 12 foot wide.
> and hallways no more than 12 foot long.
> in fact, keep all rooms no more than 12 foot wide. It would make the carpet install go alot faster.
> 
> ...


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## Floorwizard (Sep 24, 2003)

usually it would mean savings.
installers charge for the amount of materials they get sent to the job with. If less carpet gets sent out, then they charge less.
To be honest with you, a good salesperson should be able to use waste effectively, so making the rooms 12 foot or less will only help about 5% of the total sq footage usually. and you may have to shorten up rooms to do it, and who wants to own a home with small living rooms, and small Masters?
Installers do not charge for seaming unless it is above and beyond anything normal.

If your vinyl areas are brought down to 6 foot wide or below, you are good, but if a laundry is 7x7 and a bathroom is 7x9 I will still need to send out a 12x7 for the laundry and a 12x7 for the bathroom.

But, if your bathroom is 5x7 then the waste from the laundry can do the Bathroom. IF the client wants the same goods. 

What you really want to be aware of, is that if the customer picks multiple carpets for areas of the home, then there will be more carpet needed total for the job. So even if those carpets are all within allowance, there should still be an upgrade charge.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Teetorbilt said:


> md, you're asking for a contractors utopia. Even DiVosta isn't this good.


Um... not really. I get this treatment from some contractors. Their jobs are clean, organized, well run, and they are personally very sucessful people. The question was about things to save costs on jobs. I offered some suggestions; take it or leave it. To dismiss them on a wholesale basis is kinda goofy, isn't it? Hey, we all must have goals. 


mike finley said:


> I guess I assumed you guys were given a wiring diagram ahead of time with every outlet, switch and can marked, along with everything else. Is it fair to say that often new construction electricians are left more to wing it then build it to plans?


Some homes and commercial projects that are heavily "architected" or engineered do have prints that have locations of everything. Most of the time we do a walk-through with the owner or GC to get their wishes and "mark up" the studs where things go. After things are marked up that the owner or GC must have, then we "fill in the blanks" according to code and normal construction/trade standards. Even places that have electrical prints often have missing stuff and wrong stuff on them. (just like every trade's prints, I suppose). I am aware, however, that certain jurisdictions around the country must have electrical prints for plan review and to draw permits. I don't work in any areas like that.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

md, DiVosta Homes is the most efficient builder that I have ever seen. Everybody has a job, knows what it is and does it. When the home is ready for systems, the plumbers, electricians, communication and alarm techs hit it. I don't see them getting in each other's way at all, quite the opposite. If somebody needs a hand, the closest guy helps regardless of his trade. With workers like this, how can you not save money?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Obvously I'm not famaliar with this particular contractor. It sounds like the mechanical tradespeople might be employed by the contractor and are not subs? Would this be true? What you describe seems like how modular homebuilders attack their houses, since all the trades are working for the same employer.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Mdshunk - does a set of accurate electrical plans effect your price for a job vs the walk through and point and mark system?


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

md, from the original post,
'What things have you learned through experience that could reduce the cost of a house while not compromising on the quality.'
Employees are one of the best ways to reduce costs and improve quality. DiVosta hires and trains their employees as do I.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Mdshunk - does a set of accurate electrical plans effect your price for a job vs the walk through and point and mark system?


Nope. Either one (for the same installation) will yeild the same price. However without accurate plans, I'd think it would be quite difficult for the GC to get "apples to apples" bids. I seems that a GC (after a while) finds certain subs that he'll use over and over again, regardless of the price point. This is where the electrical plans taper off and the "point and mark" system begins. Admittedly, working off prints does sometimes add a bit of time. Just depends on how "fancy" architect/engineer wants things. "Point and mark" saves the GC some money (I would think), because that's one less plan to pay for if it's not otherwise required by the AHD. 

Teeter... I think that there are only certain market areas that can support companies that have all the trades under one company. You need to drive about 300 miles north, east, south or west to find a market area near me that would support such an operation.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.


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