# steam boiler locked out



## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Guys I need a little help with a steam boiler. First off can steam boilers can be completely locked out? Or should I say a low water cut-off lock out the whole system. I flush out a boiler for a family member disconnected the glass guage and cleaned it then I could not refill it. There is an automatic water feeder that was installed with-out a bypass loop for manual filling. In the past if I had to add water I would ask for heat then push the red feeder button (now green) and add water. I cannot get any indication of power from this thing now. There are no lights for low water alarm nor do I hear any relay's going through its attempt. Would an air lock around a probe type cut off put the sytem in a coma? Do I have to unscrew it a little to purge this? Any other ideas?


----------



## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

tom m said:


> Guys I need a little help with a steam boiler. First off can steam boilers can be completely locked out? Or should I say a low water cut-off lock out the whole system. I flush out a boiler for a family member disconnected the glass guage and cleaned it then I could not refill it. There is an automatic water feeder that was installed with-out a bypass loop for manual filling. In the past if I had to add water I would ask for heat then push the red feeder button (now green) and add water. I cannot get any indication of power from this thing now. There are no lights for low water alarm nor do I hear any relay's going through its attempt. Would an air lock around a probe type cut off put the sytem in a coma? Do I have to unscrew it a little to purge this? Any other ideas?


The low water shut-off collects sediment and if it gets blocked it can shut you off. It has never happened to me but I try to flush out once a week using the flush valve.... that's all I have . i'll be watching your thread.


----------



## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

Float switch...gotta be removable for repl or cleaning. It does get sediment. See if you can close the float switch by bring the wires together. Then you'll see if the fill switch operates. Should be able to overide all the valves and switches. 

The manual for the unit may be avail at the mfg's website. It'll show where all these floats and switches are.


----------



## skymaster (Oct 23, 2006)

If the feeder is McConnell 101, look on top and you will see a hole about 3/4" stick ur finger into it and you will find a button that allows you to manually open it, sometimes water level gets so low that you need to srat it manually untill it get enuf water to kick into auto.
Also YES to the above comments, you should have a drain valve on the bottom and it MUST be flushed monthly, if it is the float then UNPOWER it and you have to remove the BACK where the wires are attached, inside you will see the copper float, NEW GASKETS A MUST if you disassemble


----------



## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*Whatever ya do, if you try bypassing safeties and find a short, DO NOT leave it that way.*

*I'm going to resort to the usual and suggest you get a pro in to take a look.*

*It's probably something very simple, but this is a boiler and if it turns out to be more complicated you could create a serious safety hazard without realizing it.*


----------



## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

skymaster said:


> If the feeder is McConnell 101, look on top and you will see a hole about 3/4" stick ur finger into it and you will find a button that allows you to manually open it, sometimes water level gets so low that you need to srat it manually untill it get enuf water to kick into auto.


 Its a Mcconnell and Miller not sure the model. Are we talking about the feeder or the cut-off? I did not see any button that would allow me to manually open it on the feeder. The housing cover of the cut-off says excessive debris could cause a "grounded probe" which seems highly possible. But it also says refill and flush which is a mute point since I cant get any function to move. I feel like shutting off the supply ahead of the automatic water feed and pipe in a loop that allows me to by pass this thing. There are so many things done ass backward my in laws are afraid to flush it out or even touch it. I cant have them ignoring the maintence or have them calling the utility company everytime they attempt it either. She didnt flush it out for like ten years. After I argued with her about it and tried to flush this clogged up unit last year we ended up having the utility company come and jamb a wire hanger up the drain to free it up. It really needs to be skimmed. Now being a nice guy I end up with another issue.


----------



## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Just make sure you have a pressure relief valve or 4. I keep 4 on my system just because boilers can go thru the roof if sombody screws up and also my low pressure system runs at 3 lbs and there is not much of a chance of nuisance popping with valves set at 15 to 30 lbs. In my area steam experts are rare because there are not many steam systems. It took me a long time to sort out fact from fiction regarding steam heat but it sounds like you have it under control.


----------



## skymaster (Oct 23, 2006)

Tom: the feeder I would tell ya to do this:
go to WWW.HEATINGHELP.COM Dan is the top steam man there is. On that site there will be the most help you could get. All of the folks there are hvac experts.
Jack


----------



## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

Thanks for the link Jack. You helped me out last time to. I am going to post that question in that site to see what comes back. K2 will write what they suggest and what ultimately solves this.


----------



## skymaster (Oct 23, 2006)

Tom: how about some pics and captions? I really dont have the mental picture of what is going on. Also you can PM me or email and I will send ya a phone number, this is truly: whats wrong with this picture, moment.
There has to be a drain at the bottom of the boiler, most likely you will have to make up a double female hose but you can fill it there to at least prove the boiler lights off and runs properly. At least that gets ya heat while you try to resolve this. On every mc connell 101 feeder I have ever owned there IS a hole on top with a button for manual feed. IF the low water cutoff is bad then YES you will have issues getting water into the boiler. IF you fill the boiler as I sugested and you still cant get the boiler to fire then I would head right to the cutoff. Remember also that the CUTOFF USUALLY POWERS THE FEED! Did you check for power at the feed? At cutoff? At this point I would do some changes also, since it is down make sure the feed is plumbed into the system with unions and shutoffs at BOTH sides and might as well run a bypass loop as a cya. Remember another shutoff in the middle of the bypass. Keep me posted, meanwhile my brain is spinn on this for ya.
If ya move your boiler closer to me I can run over to help :laughing::thumbup:


----------



## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

BTW, I am looking at installing new cabinets in my house. Does anyone know any good plumbers or HVAC guys who are cabinet experts that I could get to help me with this?


----------



## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

22rifle said:


> BTW, I am looking at installing new cabinets in my house. Does anyone know any good plumbers or HVAC guys who are cabinet experts that I could get to help me with this?



*Ouch!*


----------



## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

22rifle said:


> BTW, I am looking at installing new cabinets in my house. Does anyone know any good plumbers or HVAC guys who are cabinet experts that I could get to help me with this?


 Are you saying you dont post anywhere but here or HVAC? For that matter I see a lot of mechanical trades post all over the carpentry threads on a regular basis. 
No one here is installing a new system here so dont get me started. Boiler maintence is a regular service for home owners. Knowledge of the system and how it operates at a basic level or beyond is not uncommon. No one is asking for wiring diagrams for relay by passes here are they?


----------



## skymaster (Oct 23, 2006)

Tom: dont get upset, after all a .22 caliber is such a tiny underpowered caliber. Sounds like he has .50 caliber envy.
And .22 YES I do know people who can do more than one thing,well.
If you need help ask, I am sure I can find someone who will have pity on the helpless


----------



## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

tom m said:


> Are you saying you dont post anywhere but here or HVAC? For that matter I see a lot of mechanical trades post all over the carpentry threads on a regular basis.
> No one here is installing a new system here so dont get me started. Boiler maintence is a regular service for home owners. Knowledge of the system and how it operates at a basic level or beyond is not uncommon. No one is asking for wiring diagrams for relay by passes here are they?


Relax man. I ain't busting on you. 

My only message to you is to get your advice from professionals in the trade. DIYers working on boilers is dangerous enough without getting your advice from guys who aren't experienced professionals. 

Your best bet is to run any advice given in this thread by the pros that hang out at www.heatinghelp.com. If one of them gives bad advice there are other pros there to call it out. Here, very few either know anything about steam and fewer yet will even talk to you about it. So a vinyl window installer or a cabinet maker might sound like they know what they are talking about, but might be feeding you dangerous information. There is no way to know unless the real pros speak up. Over at that other site the real pros will speak up if you get bad advice.

If you were trying to figure out how to treat diabetes you wouldn't accept the advice of a hair stylist without running it past a real doctor first. So why would you accept the advice of a cabinet maker without running it by a real steam pro first? Following bad advice can kill you when it comes to boilers.

Notice, I am not dissing any of the advice anyone gave you. Nor am I dissing them for giving you the advice. All I am saying is to recognize them for what they are in regards to steam heatin; knowledgeable homeowners, and check their advice with a real steam pro before you run with it.


----------



## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

tom m said:


> Are you saying you dont post anywhere but here or HVAC? For that matter I see a lot of mechanical trades post all over the carpentry threads on a regular basis.
> No one here is installing a new system here so dont get me started. *Boiler maintence is a regular service for home owners.* Knowledge of the system and how it operates at a basic level or beyond is not uncommon. No one is asking for wiring diagrams for relay by passes here are they?


*I hope your not charging those homeowners for your service.*

*He's saying he doesn't go into the electrical forum and expect them to answer questions about things he shouldn't be doing.*
*I'm sure he socializes with them, or not, but your not talking about the same thing.*


----------



## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

nevermind...


----------



## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

If the guy I'm pissed at has the guts to apologize it is only right I delete this.


----------



## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

I will follow suit in the name of unity and Professionalism!!!! And delete!!!!

_*For future readers and those just joining us, this and the last two posts which have been deleted were more than mildly inflammatory.*_


----------



## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

skymaster said:


> Tom: dont get upset, after all a .22 caliber is such a tiny underpowered caliber. Sounds like he has .50 caliber envy.
> And .22 YES I do know people who can do more than one thing,well.
> If you need help ask, I am sure I can find someone who will have pity on the helpless


*That wasn't an incredibly well thought out way of making a point.*

*I spend a lot of time loitering in the other area's of this forum, I NEVER ask DIY questions of other professionals...especially if I'm told it might be a lil' dangerous.*

*I DO like to exchange idea's on running a business on occasion, or whine about b-tchy customers, we all have that in common.*

*I respect the boundaries of the other trades, this isn't a DIY forum.*

*Comparatively, mess up a cabinet and it looks like sh!t, maybe starts to fall apart in a month.*
*Mess up a boiler and kill a family in their sleep.*

*Don't misunderstand me, I truly understand the everyday hazards and complex safety measures to consider when installing cabinets, but boilers are pretty close there too when it comes to safety.*

*I'm just saying maybe you should think about this the next time your tightening a dangerous loose hinge or handle.*
*Boiler work requires almost the same level of experience, though maybe not quite as dangerous.*

*We get a little silly here sometimes.*


----------



## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

MALCO.New.York said:


> I do not recall ONCE pointing any fingers in ANY direction. I do recall mentioning etiquette and tact and delivery and that we are ALL fooking assssssholes in our own scrtchy bottomed way when we choose.
> 
> So ????????????????????????????????
> 
> All I ask is that once a point is made, let it be made and then LET IT GO. (something that I am NOT doing right now!!!!!!!!!!!)


*Not really sure how or why you keep becoming involved in discussion over the plumbing spats..but I'm with that "let it go" school of thinking as well.*

*It's just that the same thing keeps happening, this thread was a perfect example.*
*22 made an example of unrelated trades asking plumbers how to make cabinets, then the nastiness started...he was apparently kidding anyway.*


----------



## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

You guys are unbelievable. Maybe I was a little jumpy too. I realize certain answer's are providing instruction to something that can be dangerous especially with gas or pressurized equipment but the point of this entire site is to share some helpful advice, people here share everything from contracts to business forms. 
Know one knows what level of experience the other has on this site. I guess the plumbers are losing too many of those gravy hot water heater installation's to DYI's these days and become sensitive. The last time I asked about a simple trap I got hostility. At least you have a reccession proof skills. The carpentry trades have been raked over the coals by home depot. We cant get a proffessional fee for a proffessional job either these days and people will likely hire out less.
Maybe what I thought was an easy proceedure is a little more complex to some of you. The low water cut-off probe was grounded for anyone who really care's. It can shut down the system even after I cleaned it. Once it was grounded its done. Thanks to those of you that offered advice.


----------



## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Grumpyplumber said:


> *Not really sure how or why you keep becoming involved in discussion over the plumbing spats.*


It is because........... The ONLY forum that I attend is the "New Posts". From there I can read ALL the CT crapola and the good stuff.

I am easily bored.


----------



## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

tom m said:


> You guys are unbelievable. Maybe I was a little jumpy too. I realize certain answer's are providing instruction to something that can be dangerous especially with gas or pressurized equipment but the point of this entire site is to share some helpful advice, people here share everything from contracts to business forms.
> Know one knows what level of experience the other has on this site. I guess the plumbers are losing too many of those gravy hot water heater installation's to DYI's these days and become sensitive. The last time I asked about a simple trap I got hostility. At least you have a reccession proof skills. The carpentry trades have been raked over the coals by home depot. We cant get a proffessional fee for a proffessional job either these days and people will likely hire out less.
> Maybe what I thought was an easy proceedure is a little more complex to some of you. The low water cut-off probe was grounded for anyone who really care's. It can shut down the system even after I cleaned it. Once it was grounded its done. Thanks to those of you that offered advice.


*The hostility isn't necessary, but you're listed as a remodeler, which to me means you have a regular plumber with the fact the I'm sure you do your share of kitchens and baths.*
*Why didn't you just ask him?*

*Like I said, I knew it was basic.*

*Not calling anyone liars here, but if a GC I work for regularly asks me something about his boiler, I help him out.*

*When a remodeler, GC or builder come into the plumbing forum asking "how to" questions, thats the question many of us find ourselves wondering.*


----------



## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Grumpyplumber said:


> *The hostility isn't necessary, but you're listed as a remodeler, which to me means you have a regular plumber with the fact the I'm sure you do your share of kitchens and baths.*
> *Why didn't you just ask him?*
> 
> *Like I said, I knew it was basic.*
> ...


I couldn't find many, or maybe any, plumbers in this city that know anything about steam heat. One of the plumbing inspectors asks me questions about steam... Of course there was a time when a few plumbers charged me some dough but didn't know jack about my system.


----------



## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

K2 said:


> I couldn't find many, or maybe any, plumbers in this city that know anything about steam heat. One of the plumbing inspectors asks me questions about steam... Of course there was a time when a few plumbers charged me some dough but didn't know jack about my system.


*Interesting, in a colorado jurisdiction that you can't find a boiler guy.*


----------



## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Grumpyplumber said:


> *Interesting, in a colorado jurisdiction that you can't find a boiler guy.*


Lots of boiler guys don't know steam. My point was that a person with a steam problem might not want to "just ask a plumber"... Actually , I think that most people with steam should just get a new heating system. But, i like my old steam system with all it's quirks just as I like my 1921 Meyers leather cup piston pump. I wouldn't ask just any plumber about my pump either.


----------



## uaplumber (May 21, 2008)

tom m said:


> You guys are unbelievable. Maybe I was a little jumpy too. I realize certain answer's are providing instruction to something that can be dangerous especially with gas or pressurized equipment but the point of this entire site is to share some helpful advice, people here share everything from contracts to business forms.
> Know one knows what level of experience the other has on this site. I guess the plumbers are losing too many of those gravy hot water heater installation's to DYI's these days and become sensitive. The last time I asked about a simple trap I got hostility. At least you have a reccession proof skills. The carpentry trades have been raked over the coals by home depot. We cant get a proffessional fee for a proffessional job either these days and people will likely hire out less.
> Maybe what I thought was an easy proceedure is a little more complex to some of you. The low water cut-off probe was grounded for anyone who really care's. It can shut down the system even after I cleaned it. Once it was grounded its done. Thanks to those of you that offered advice.


Ok, there are many things that the average person should not do. Messing with a pressure vessel is one of them. It just should not be done. Maybe some people cannot fathom the need for qualified assistance when needed, but if you don't know how to do something with " a simple trap " how can we be confident in your boiler abilities. I see many of the same names on these PLUMBING threads causing the same issues time and again. Posting questions is fine by me. If there is a way we can help you, safely we will. If it seems like you need more than just advice we will let you now. However, if you are not a plumber, why do you feel the need to give plumbing advice? I can guess all day at answers for other trades, many times I would be right on too. But I would hope that anyone reading those posts would see that I may not have the correct answers. Heck, even if I were to be right it doesn't mean that it would work the best. Feel free to come over and read the posts anytime guys. Knowledge is power. But leave the plumbing advice to the plumbers.


----------



## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

K2 said:


> Lots of boiler guys don't know steam. My point was that a person with a steam problem might not want to "just ask a plumber"... Actually , I think that most people with steam should just get a new heating system. But, i like my old steam system with all it's quirks just as I like my 1921 Meyers leather cup piston pump. I wouldn't ask just any plumber about my pump either.


*I think you're in luck, I searched the Boulder yellow pages and found 770 boiler specialty companies.*
*I'm short on time, so I only looked on yellowpages.com.*
http://www.yellowpages.com/Boulder-CO/Heating-Contractors-Specialties?search_terms=boiler
*My guess is that there might be one or two who do steam.*


----------



## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Grumpyplumber said:


> *I think you're in luck, I searched the Boulder yellow pages and found 770 boiler specialty companies.*
> *I'm short on time, so I only looked on yellowpages.com.*
> http://www.yellowpages.com/Boulder-CO/Heating-Contractors-Specialties?search_terms=boiler
> *My guess is that there might be one or two who do steam.*


Well thanks grump. But i don't live in Boulder and there are probably a few more steam systems up there than here and of course denver probaby has quite a few steam system and therefore quite a few steam experts. But even in my part of the state i could go to the yellow pages and find a few plumbing shops claiming to do steam but when they get out here they don't even know the difference between a one pipe system and a two pipe, or if i ask them what those big red things are that are hanging above the boiler they don't have a clue. But they are still willing to charge for a service call. No around here I'm the steam expert and i'm a carpenter/ almost journeyman elecrtician. But I get your point, almost. 

I have other stories about local plumbers and steam but, that will have to be another day.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Sep 6, 2008)

Think maybe I'll move to Denver. Seems like there might be a market there


----------



## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Think maybe I'll move to Denver. Seems like there might be a market there


*I'll chip in fer tolls n gas.*


----------



## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

K2 said:


> Well thanks grump. But i don't live in Boulder and there are probably a few more steam systems up there than here and of course denver probaby has quite a few steam system and therefore quite a few steam experts. But even in my part of the state i could go to the yellow pages and find a few plumbing shops claiming to do steam but when they get out here they don't even know the difference between a one pipe system and a two pipe, or if i ask them what those big red things are that are hanging above the boiler they don't have a clue. But they are still willing to charge for a service call. No around here I'm the steam expert and i'm a carpenter/ almost journeyman elecrtician. But I get your point, almost.
> 
> I have other stories about local plumbers and steam but, that will have to be another day.


*Makes ya wonder what in the world happened to the installing companies.*
*Very strange demographic phenomenon.*


----------

