# the union antics



## grizl (Sep 27, 2008)

my mental health is at stake.
The union antics are getting to me.
getting yelled at by grown men who get a big kick out of it all. 
I've got a family and the negative energy is effecting me and my family.
I was thinking last night that all the anger that they send to us has a physical effect. 
you win, because I cannot work at that job anymore. I've got a new baby due in feb. and my positive energy is important. 
this is bs.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

grizl said:


> my mental health is at stake.
> The union antics are getting to me.
> getting yelled at by grown men who get a big kick out of it all.
> I've got a family and the negative energy is effecting me and my family.
> ...


Don't worry. There will be plenty of people along to defend the union thugs and bash you.


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

I have been hassled by union guys before, It's pathetic, it's hard to imagine grown men behaving so immaturely. I give them what they want a confrontation, I yell back and call them names hoping someone will give me a chance to punch their lights out and not get sued.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

grizl, we obviously have a great amount of differences in our beliefs but...


If all they are doing is acting like idiots, you need to ignore them. Do not let them anger you to the point of you not being able to work. I know, easier said than done but realistically, unless they are doing anything illegal, there is little you can do to change their antics.

That is the other thing you need to check on;

is what they are doing and where they are doing it legal? They must be on public property or private property with the owners permission.

Intimidation can be illegal in certain situations. Call the local prosecutors office and ask to speak with somebody about this. They may be interested, maybe not. You may speak with the federal authorities regarding this. Labor laws are both state and federal but racketeering (just an example) is a federal charge. There may be others applicable to your situation.

Not knowing your schedule, I do not know if this is a possibiltiy but can you pull off that job for a limited time and work a different job? If so, them playing catch up with you could be a fun distraction for you.

Obviously I am pro-union but in my area, my union local would not stoop to these antics. There are some other unions that may but I have not seen such actions from any of them.

If nothing else, try some yoga or TM (transcendental meditation)....seriously. You must realize that they are winning the war right now.

While I am a supporter of unions, I do believe in professional behavior to achieve the results sought.




Hows that for ya 22rifle? Enough bashing and supporting of union thugs by a pro-union guy?


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

nap said:


> grizl, we obviously have a great amount of differences in our beliefs but...
> 
> 
> If all they are doing is acting like idiots, you need to ignore them. Do not let them anger you to the point of you not being able to work. I know, easier said than done but realistically, unless they are doing anything illegal, there is little you can do to change their antics.
> ...


Proud of ya!

The unions have much to offer the trades. They are also their own worst enemy.


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## grizl (Sep 27, 2008)

thanks for the advise friends. Yeah i can ignore them until about friday morning when we get back from break and they uniformly chant "Good morning guys!". whatever. I have to research more into solutions. I do feel like a crazy columbine kid once in awhile. Twenty + bullies yelling at four guys all could get under anybodies skin.
i do HAVE to keep my mouth shut, because it only eggs them on.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

Check into the legality of squirting skunk musk around the area they protest at.


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## Kaiser (Jan 22, 2008)

Maybe you should join the union.

That way you can get overpaid to act like an ass.

Man the unions are doing great things in the 21st century.


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## Snow Man (Aug 18, 2008)

Pay no attention to the idiots, my friend ........8 and skate!


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Kaiser said:


> That way you can get overpaid to act like an ass.
> 
> .


I'm still trying to figure out how you folks come up with union workers are overpaid. Like I have said many times, the union contractors have to bid on jobs just like everybody else. If they were overpriced, they simply would not get the work and close their doors eventually.

Apparently somebody finds a value in union skills.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

grizl said:


> thanks for the advise friends. Yeah i can ignore them until about friday morning when we get back from break and they uniformly chant "Good morning guys!". whatever. I have to research more into solutions. I do feel like a crazy columbine kid once in awhile. Twenty + bullies yelling at four guys all could get under anybodies skin.
> i do HAVE to keep my mouth shut, because it only eggs them on.


being a business owner, I would think you have ready access to an attorney. Ask him what the limitations are of the protesters.

Depending on the area, I can think of several things to dissuade the union guys.

the following are not what I am referring to but here are a few fun things to try.



When they chant, have all your guys get together and sing the Good Morning song.



> Good Morning, good morning to you.
> We're all in our places
> With sunshiny faces,
> and this is the way
> ...


or;

I would have to check the legality of recording audio but it is legal to record video of them. Set up a camera and let it run all day. Or set up a very real looking fake camera and let them think it is running all day.


then to be real sneaky, set up a real camera where they don;t know about it and film the fake camera. When you all leave for lunch, with the conspicuous announcement that is loud enough that they can hear, I'll bet something happens to the fake camera. With it on video from the other camera, they just hung themselves.

Personally, I would do one of two things;

ignore them (I understand your limits here)

or simply wave and wish them good morning each day and good night when leaving.

I would strongly suggest not getting confrontational with them. With the description of these guys, it sounds like they would welcome such action and how are you or your guys going to work with injuries or court proceedings to deal with. Not the smart way to deal with this.


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## Kaiser (Jan 22, 2008)

nap said:


> Apparently somebody finds a value in union skills.


There is no doubt most union workers have skills. But you can't tell me they don't dictate pricing in some areas and force contractors to use union workers.

In my mind if one spends time harrasing none union workers rather than working he is a waste of money period.


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

nap said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how you folks come up with union workers are overpaid. Like I have said many times, the union contractors have to bid on jobs just like everybody else. If they were overpriced, they simply would not get the work and close their doors eventually.
> 
> Apparently somebody finds a value in union skills.


Only some union workers are over paid, just like in open shops a lot of guys getting prevailing wage are over paid. Pay should be based on ability and productivity not averages. IMO.


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## AJX4 (Jan 17, 2008)

tape it and put the incidetn on youtube. do it for your unborn child, do it for the children. :sad:



:w00t:


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Kaiser said:


> There is no doubt most union workers have skills. But you can't tell me they don't dictate pricing in some areas and force contractors to use union workers.
> 
> In my mind if one spends time harrasing none union workers rather than working he is a waste of money period.


 
Yes I can. How can they force a customer (you know, the guy with the money we are trying to get) to use union contractors. How do they dictate pricing? We bid on projects just like (and along with) everybody else.

When we picket, we do not speak with the non-union guys at all unless they would walk up to us and speak with us. We are directed to present ourselves in a repectable manner. Anything less would put us in a bad light. 

Like I said, union workers are highly repected by most in my area.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Bkessler said:


> Only some union workers are over paid, just like in open shops a lot of guys getting prevailing wage are over paid. Pay should be based on ability and productivity not averages. IMO.


so the good worker that just doesn't like to confront the boss and ask for a raise is going to get paid as much as the guy that does ask for a raise?

In my personal and actual experience; no he won't so the union sees that he does.

as to ability and productivity; if a hand is not prodictive and is not capable of doing the work required, he will be returned to the hall and another hand will be requested. Again, why do so many people think the union allows slugs to keep working. It doesn't.

There is a lot more to it than pay as well. I know the rules in place because they are contracted to. Can a non-union shop hand say that? Can he be sure the rules will be the same tomorrow? What if his boss decides he isn;t putting enough money in his own pocket so he tells everybody they are taking a $1/hour cut in pay? How many tools is a non-union guy required to own? Priced any knock out sets lately? How about a 555 bender? What is the limit of required tools for a non-union guy?

So, when those work rules are broken, who stands up for the guy? (nobody if non-union) Does he have to fear being fired?(most assuredly if non-union).

Being union goes well beyond hourly pay.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Bkessler said:


> Pay should be based on ability and productivity not averages. IMO.


In a perfect world...
Take this example:
Doing a mid-rise condo job. Men on the first floor will have a higher production rate then men on the 5th flr. 
So the men on the 5th flr get paid less based on:
- delays due to other trades using the lifts/stairs
- lost time traveling up/down for breaks/lunches, etc
...essentially, lost production time.

Taking it a step further:
Men doing a rough job as opposed to a finish job will also have different "hurdles" to over come.
The guys on the 5th flr may be roughing while the guys on the first are trimming out. Assuming same trade, should the men be paid at a different rate due to the different tasks and productivity?

Co-ordination and proper planning result in an average of what work can be performed by a tradesman with average skills in a given day.
I have yet to see an estimating program that bases anything on other than:
"Average production" under "good" conditions. 
Sure there are multipliers than can be used to overcome loses caused by these situations - but what happens when the situation is caused/created by:
- other trades
- management within the company
etc
It's certainly not the tradesman's fault...and yet his pay would be penalized?


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## Kaiser (Jan 22, 2008)

nap said:


> Yes I can. How can they force a customer (you know, the guy with the money we are trying to get) to use union contractors. How do they dictate pricing? We bid on projects just like (and along with) everybody else.
> 
> Strong arm tatics:
> 
> ...


Nap.. I don't know you from Adam but I'm going to assume you are a quality Sparky that goes to work and gets the job done.

Unfortunatly the A-Holes referenced in this thread and my experience with Unions put you all in a bad light.


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## grizl (Sep 27, 2008)

When we picket, we do not speak with the non-union guys at all unless they would walk up to us and speak with us. We are directed to present ourselves in a repectable manner. Anything less would put us in a bad light. 

Like I said, union workers are highly repected by most in my area.[/quote]


Respectable manner, yeah that would be welcomed. From talking to others in the industry in my area. Lumber yards, hardware stores, other trades, general contractors, everyone thinks there behavior is out of line. The general contractor is pissed and swears to never use union again. Picketing is one thing, but prancing around and acting like little boys is different. They deliberately get under our skin.
-CHECK this out. For most of the day. They walk in an oval and chant. They have a video recorder set up on each side. For half the day, they will tape us working. One day I was cutting plywood and they taped me cut for 30 minutes, just cutting. They also call OSHA Every single day with fraudulent claims. 
Nap- sounds like they need to take some advise from your guys and stop acting like kids.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

grizl said:


> Nap- sounds like they need to take some advise from your guys and stop acting like kids.


 
I agree. 

I like to think my union and specifically my local represent ourselves as pro's. To do so, you must present yourself as such. The yahoos you are dealing with prove that all the bad stereotypes have some basis for belief.

Sad.

Kaiser; there are more recent laws that help prevent this. The RICO laws have been used in some situations. In others, lawsuits for restraint of trade or even interference with a contractual obligation have been used to sue the toughs into poverty.

Demanding a man count is utterly rediculous. Maybe it's because I am from a relatively small town although Chicago is not that far away. As a matter of fact, my current steward is a Chicago native. I'll ask him what he has seen in the big city.

I would really like to convince you guys that the unions really are intended to improve the employees situation. There have obviously been good times and baad times for the unions in regards to illegal activities and how they spread their word of hope for the working guy. Just because there are some idiots out there doesn't mean we are all like that.

Now as to calling OSHA. If you are doing something contrary to safety laws, first, I would suggest you stop. Next, if you are doing something wrong, then calling OSHA is the correct action because they enforce the laws required to let your workers be safe and return home to their families at night. If you are doing nothing wrong, I understand it is a big hassle to deal with OSHA (they have been on our job for 2 days last week and will be there Monday and Tuesday from what I understand) but you will be vindicated. You might speak with the OSHA inspector as to how they feel about the situation and the union guys intent merely to hassle you. The inspector may not care to be used.


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

nap said:


> so the good worker that just doesn't like to confront the boss and ask for a raise is going to get paid as much as the guy that does ask for a raise?
> 
> In my personal and actual experience; no he won't so the union sees that he does.
> 
> ...


I need to stay out of the union discussions, your right in what you post. I have lot's of buddies in the 58 They are all real good electricians and still working. But there is the "half empty version as well". I know Slugs are not kept around just like in open shops, I also know if I were a slug I would be a union slug. There are negative aspects to the union, I admit I have a subjective view, just like you.


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## grizl (Sep 27, 2008)

Along with a morning chant. They did a goodbye chant on Friday, where they all lined up facing us and yelled to the top there lungs. I couldn't understand them, but it got me to turn around. meh


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## oldrivers (May 6, 2007)

nap said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how you folks come up with union workers are overpaid. Like I have said many times, the union contractors have to bid on jobs just like everybody else. If they were overpriced, they simply would not get the work and close their doors eventually.
> 
> Apparently somebody finds a value in union skills.


-------------------

its kind of a complicated system . Trades such as elecricans and plumbers require licenes what do you do if theyre all union ? you either pay or dont build period. and if you dont unionioze certain govt lawmakers can and do cut you out of govt spending projects. ive seen many times where a govt lawmaker mandates only unions do jobs or thery wont pass the project. i bet you didnt know that the term outsourcing applies to everyone that is not union. yep if your non union they wont let you have the work regardless if your foreign or american. bush tried making it so everyone could share more of the wealth get in on govt spending jobs but the unions said no way. so when youir favorite democrat senator stands up and says no outsorcing you think it applies to foreigners but it also applies to many americans that are non union. if your non union and vote democrat your voting against yourself in that way but probably dont know it cause of the miss conception that outsorcing applies to only foriegners. 

but anyways if a trade reqires a licsenses and they all unionize they kind of have you over the barrel one way or the other nice little assist from the govt mandating liscenses.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

oldrivers said:


> ....anyways if a trade reqires a licsenses and they all unionize they kind of have you over the barrel one way or the other nice little assist from the govt mandating liscenses.


:no:
I don't know where you get your info from, but it is NOT 100% correct.

As a licensed EC here in NJ, I can have 60,000 electricians working for me under MY license - they need, at most, just a DL to get to/from the job sites.

Some States have language of similar nature - some don't.

"Blaming" it on the Unions is not fair, as the accusation is inaccurate.


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## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

oldrivers said:


> -------------------


There.
I only cut out out the parts that were
erroneous....
or just plain wrong. :laughing:


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## oldrivers (May 6, 2007)

Celtic said:


> :no:
> I don't know where you get your info from, but it is NOT 100% correct.
> 
> As a licensed EC here in NJ, I can have 60,000 electricians working for me under MY license - they need, at most, just a DL to get to/from the job sites.
> ...


 
well not so easy , the state might not have any particular requirments of their own but that doesnt mean that they didnt empower other agencies over you their rules and regs. id have a hard time believing you can do what you say because i find it hard to believe the generals contractors state mandated general liability insurance would allow you to. you see it wasnt the state that stopped you it was the insurance company they empowered that could in that case and with enough influance whos to say what mandated rules they can enforce on general contarctors what it takes to keep coveragae or lose it . believe me i know the game unions protect eachother all the time however they can and with any means they can , inspectors are also union so they can red tag jobs for cough cough reasons not actualy related to the work itself but whos doing it they dont like. 

union influance to join is a whole different story union dues= campaign donations = guarunteed contracts and now possibly guarunteed pensions backed by who else the tax payers. can you say buy elections?? :whistling


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

oldrivers said:


> well not so easy , the state might not have any particular requirments of their own but that doesnt mean that they didnt empower other agencies over you their rules and regs. id have a hard time believing you can do what you say because i find it hard to believe the generals contractors state mandated general liability insurance would allow you to. you see it wasnt the state that stopped you it was the insurance company they empowered that could in that case and with enough influance whos to say what mandated rules they can enforce on general contarctors what it takes to keep coveragae or lose it . believe me i know the game unions protect eachother all the time however they can and with any means they can , inspectors are also union so they can red tag jobs for cough cough reasons not actualy related to the work itself but whos doing it they dont like.
> 
> union influance to join is a whole different story union dues= campaign donations = guarunteed contracts and now possibly guarunteed pensions backed by who else the tax payers. can you say buy elections?? :whistling



What's next?
Man never set foot on the moon?


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## jbfan (Apr 1, 2004)

I am neither pro or anti union. In the state of Ga, as an Ec, I only need one license, mine and I can can have every other electrician in the state work for me. There are no rules that state I even have to oversee the work.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

jbfan said:


> There are no rules that state I even have to oversee the work.


I'm guessing it's pretty much like NJ in Ga. in this aspect.....just make sure the your insurance premiums are paid!:laughing:


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## oldrivers (May 6, 2007)

jbfan said:


> I am neither pro or anti union. In the state of Ga, as an Ec, I only need one license, mine and I can can have every other electrician in the state work for me. There are no rules that state I even have to oversee the work.


 
no rules, where is this fantasy land?? :thumbup: there are also no rules limiting OSHA an attorney , workers comp , the IRS a general contractor or a union if you have a contract with them, if and when they decide to come after you for something.


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## bert0168 (Jan 28, 2008)

jbfan said:


> I am neither pro or anti union. In the state of Ga, as an Ec, I only need one license, mine and I can can have every other electrician in the state work for me. There are no rules that state I even have to oversee the work.



I think he means there is no specific *RULE *that requires him to physically be on the job to supervise.

Oldrivers, as for your statements regarding the unions and political power.....

I am not a union member but have a brother who is IBEW. In larger cities what you say is absolutely true. Why do you think the unions vote strictly democrat? Talking to my brother about it makes my head spin. On some issues I liken the union membership to a bunch of lemmings, towing the union line regardless. Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are some who don't (or say they don't) but I guarantee you, for example, not one of them would dream of doing something like showing up to a jobsite in anything other than what they regard as an "American" built auto (unless they had several spares in the trunk).

But when it comes to bullying me on the job or trying to take food off my table, watch out! :no:


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

DC is the same way Master electrician can have any bum work under his license as an employee.


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

Labor unions were started for a good and neeeded reason. ie. the Triangle shirt waste fire. But have since, sometimes go to far. I was trained as a carpenter while a union apprentice and I appreciate my time spent as a union carpenter. However, there is no argument from me that some labor unions or its members take advantage. I have seen it myself.
Then again I am management now so my opinion is skewed.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Mellison said:


> Labor unions were started for a good and neeeded reason. ie. the Triangle shirt waste fire.


Here is another reason: corporate greed.


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## grizl (Sep 27, 2008)

Yes they are still at it. But as the days go on it becomes clear who getting work done and who's not. 
Here is how we've been F'n with em'.arty:
My coworker has a loud annoying siren, sounds like a firedrill from the sixties. It's a grey box with flashing lights. Every morning we put the thing right out buy em. hilarious. first day they called the cops and we told em it was a safety device. So, basically we can keep it on. good times good times.
there is serious talk of making signs to put by em'. meh:jester:


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## grizl (Sep 27, 2008)

can anyone tell me what is up with the video taping????
i mean i get it, but, they will tape us work all day, two cameras, even when nothings going on. they even tape us on break!


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## oldrivers (May 6, 2007)

they're probably trying to catch you violating osha laws wich are so vague sometimes you cant possbly make it through the day without breaking any. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ .


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

grizl said:


> can anyone tell me what is up with the video taping????
> i mean i get it, but, they will tape us work all day, two cameras, even when nothings going on. they even tape us on break!


are you sure there is even tape in the cameras?

It may simply be cameras are placed there to unnerve you.

olddriver could be correct as well. No way to tell.


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## grizl (Sep 27, 2008)

I was talking to my dad today, he sounded down about the whole thing, for once I had to tell him it would be all right. Companies that we've been working with for years are now hesitant to use us. They don't want the problems. Another job that was for the city might get denied because, being for the city, they don't want the problems. go union


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Well, I hate to sound like I am trying to make you go union but as you said before, your pay and bene;s is comperable to union pay and bene;s so why argue this thing? I know it would look like you caved but in reality, I am sure all you want is to do your work and go home to your family and not have to deal with the ruffians.

what is the reasoning for not going union?


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