# Scope of work for 'finish plumbing' ???



## akm (Nov 13, 2007)

Eg, what materials should the term 'finish fixtures and trim' include (ie in the scope of work for 'finish plumbing' vs 'rough-in') ?

Ie, for a lav would it include only the lav fixture, faucet/s and faucet valves, or, would it also include the angle stops/flex pipe, p-trap, etc for the lav installation ?

Also, might there be a more 'official' (ie credible etc) place, other than an opinion forum (btw, NOT knocking this forum), to get those kinds of definitions ?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I'm not a plumber, but if someone hires me to "finish", that means whatever it takes to finish. Plumbers certainly never install angle stops, traps, and even "finish" nipples during the ruff. That's all finish work.


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## Bill (Mar 30, 2006)

Finish plumbing means I supply *EVERYTHING* needed to connect each fixture unit to. Others supply the fixtures. I must supply ALL pipes, drains, insulation, hangers, strapping, fittings, cut offs, supply lines, escussions to connect to each. Then I *MUST* test each for leaks at the supply and drain.

So in short, finish means when I leave, you may dump and flush!


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

It means what your scope of work (exhibit a) of your contract says it means.

There are general terms like rough-in, but a tub is a finish fixture set at rough-in. 

So, again, it means what it means according to the contract you have signed.

If you don't have a contract, then it means whatever you and the person you're doing the finish work for, or have hired to do the finish agree on.


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## Bill (Mar 30, 2006)

Double-A said:


> There are general terms like rough-in, but a tub is a finish fixture set at rough-in.


How can that be? I need to install the drain and waste, yes, but then later on the shower ell, diverter cover, W/O, and drain cover. Would not this be trim?

i do agree, its what ever the "Scope of work" calls for. Unfortunately a lot of people never read them, and there are some GC's who simply dont give it to subs.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

And if you're doing a CBU shower that uses rough brass for fixtures and exposed pipes all the way? Is there a "trim" or is it just two rough-ins? One for under slab and one for fixtures?

That is my point. There are exceptions to every rule. To say that finish is to make complete isn't always correct. It usually is, but the point I'm making is simply this, it all depends on what the definition of the word "is" is. 

Its not unheard of in a bath remodel to kill the plumbing in the walls and set new supplies for the lav and the toilet through the original tile floor that isn't seeing any changes to it. Well, we go ahead and set stops and escutcheons on these stops, then bag them to protect and keep the dust off of them. 

Is that finish or rough-in? The answer is, what ever was agreed to.


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

Sounds like someone's in a pissing match with a plumber that he brought in to replace the previous one who was either thrown off the job or walked off. It also sounds like said replacement plumber was thrown a 1/2-azzed scope letter (if there was one at all) and is now balking over his exact duties.


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## akm (Nov 13, 2007)

Thank you all for the feedback.
In order of thread...

1. Would you not eg include standard wall on/off toggle switches in an electrical (labor and materials) sub-contract for rough-in and finish electrical that included a materials only (installation included in the l&m price) allowance for 'lighting fixtures' ?

2. Tend to agree with the D&F opinion in terms of my past experience, going back to the 70s, but things have changed (not to mention gray hair) and with all of the new types of 'fixtures and trim' terms/jargon seem to be a bit more ify. In the past, they seemed to include all that was exposed, ie visible without opening cabinet doors and access panels. All of the other misc piping and valves (like angle stops, even when 'exposed' behind the toilet) were part of the finish but not considered as 'trim'. Kinda like the hose bibs, washer boxes, etc which get installed along with the rough-in.

3. Not a P-match (yet), but does relate to a specific case where in the sub-contract all rough-in and finish 'labor & material' was included except specific fixtures and trim which were defined by fixture and trim cut sheets included with the sub-contract (provided by the gc and signed by the pc). The plumber then, after the finish phase, billed a fairly large amount for "misc trim" which, for the scope of the job, seemed to be enough (wasnt itemized) to include all material (eg including angle stops, p-traps, etc) for the finish work.

So, am just trying to get some ideas for how we might improve on the contract form/language for next project/s.
Thought there may be a simple standard trade reference that would help define, but like all construction, there not much that is 'standard' 
Thanks again for your help !


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

General expectations are just those, general. General contract language is just that, general. Its also worthless.

Unless you can get an attorney to site a specific case reference in your jurisdiction for what "finish" is, you'll have to spell it out in specifics if you expect to have bids that include or do not include it. 

Sorry, but the easy answer is the conclusion you have come to. And with todays litigious climate, its just good business to define your expectation in unequivocal terms. Sucks, I prefer a handshake, but, unless you're in a small town and known, you're out on a limb. Might be even then. I'd like to think not, but welcome to August 2008.


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