# Recessed Lighting



## apherigo (Aug 12, 2010)

Is the can portion of the recessed light considered rough-in and the insert portion considered the trim/finish? Or, is the entire assembly a rough-in?

Thanks for your help,
Aaron


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

The can is the rough-in portion. The trim & lamp are installed at trim.


----------



## apherigo (Aug 12, 2010)

480sparky said:


> The can is the rough-in portion. The trim & lamp are installed at trim.


So, if you were called to testify in front a jury of your peers, you would state that the Can is the "Rough-in" and the Insert is the "Trim/Finish"?

...and yes, this issue has become a legal one :shutup:


----------



## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

:drink::whistling, wait for it


----------



## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

damn, he came replied quicker than i thought he would.


----------



## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

I have wondered about this before.I did a kitchen remodel where the only thing needing to be inspected was the electrical.The inspector came out and looked at the can lights and said "Looks good" and signed the card....I wondered what is he really inspecting?

On a room addition the rough inspection they come out before the outlets are made up and the fixtures (including cans) are installed.


----------



## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

apherigo said:


> So, if you were called to testify in front a jury of your peers, you would state that the Can is the "Rough-in" and the Insert is the "Trim/Finish"?
> 
> ...and yes, this issue has become a legal one :shutup:


Well, i cannot see someone finishing a ceiling with the trim installed but i am sure there are hacks out there who may try. Is it the job of the carpenter to remove the trim to perform his work? I would say no! This is how trim gets damaged, lost or reinstalled improperly. It is the responsibility of the electrician to install the lighting trim as the bulb settings must be set per bulb type and trim type.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Genuine Can light maybe? :laughing:








​


----------



## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

apherigo said:


> ...and yes, this issue has become a legal one :shutup:


Hmm. So your trade is generally a general one, and you're being called in as an expert witness (in which case you should know the answer)?

Or is there maybe more to the story?

We like to help, but you haven't done much to demonstrate that you're "one of us."


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

apherigo said:


> So, if you were called to testify in front a jury of your peers, you would state that the Can is the "Rough-in" and the Insert is the "Trim/Finish"?
> 
> ...and yes, this issue has become a legal one :shutup:


The same would be true of a nail-on box.... that is installed during the rough-in stage, and the switch or receptacle & cover would be installed at trim.

The same is true for many aspects of construction. Plumbers install the pipes at rough, but not the toilets & faucets until trim.

Although, I would have to admit I don't know what an 'insert' is.


----------



## apherigo (Aug 12, 2010)

In the contract to finish the homeowners basement, I am responsible for rough-in electrical only. The homeonwer is responsible for all finish items.

The homeowner currently states he is not responsible for the baffle and trim ring because it is part of the "rough-in". I argued that the insert (baffle and trim ring) are part of the finish items. (There are about 40 can lights in this basement).

I just want to make sure I'm not missing something here.

Aaron


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

By that logic, then everything would be part of your responsibility.

When I rough in a recessed can, I install the shiny metal box & cylinder & straps & short whip. I do not have a trim ring or lamp purchased at that time because I need to wait until the ceiling is installed & finished (typically drywall, so it needs to be hung, taped, skimmed, sanded, textured, primed & painted). Only after the ceiling is finished do I even think about the trim ring & lamp.

Apparently the HO is confused because many Big Box DIY stores like to package the RI can along with the trim for merchandising purposes.


----------



## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Now that we know what you are doing it is easier to answer. 480 hit it right on IMO. Normally the can is installed and wired, after the ceiling is finished then normally the electrician comes back in and sets the bulb height and installs the trim. But, if there is an agreement between you and the HO that you rough it in and they do the finish then he should be the one installing the trim. I myself would prefer not to work this way as now you have another set of hands in the light and potentially more problems if they do not know what they are doing.

Is the HO expecting you to buy the trim or did they come with the lights? Some trims are only $10 but i have spent as much as $60 on a single trim, your talking 40 lights so this expense will add up quickly and may be why he thinks you are responsible for the finish trim now. If he does not have the finish trim then tell him to buy it himself and you will install them just to save from being dragged to court. Did you have a written contract stating who is responsible for the finish trim, if so did you put the agreement in enough detail?


----------



## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

apherigo said:


> In the contract to finish the homeowners basement, I am responsible for rough-in electrical only. The homeonwer is responsible for all finish items.
> 
> The homeowner currently states he is not responsible for the baffle and trim ring because it is part of the "rough-in". I argued that the insert (baffle and trim ring) are part of the finish items. (There are about 40 can lights in this basement).
> 
> ...


If a homeowner asked me to do the rough wiring so he could do all of the trim (lights trims, breakers, switches and outlets) I wouldn't have bid the job. It's a huge red flag for future trouble. Now you know.


----------

