# How much should I school the quartz fabricator?



## Richard_N_S (Jun 12, 2011)

Currently I'm doing a remodel project out of state and have had quite the complications with the counter-top fabricator. 

First off, I chose them because I didn't know any of the local tradesmen or contractors to go through and they had quite the reputation and a portfolio of even greater magnitude. 

The problem with this installer started when the owner showed up to take measurements and he stormed out because I didn't frame my under-mounts in the cabinets. He didn't seem to understand that the sinks were going to be on center with the width of the cabinet unit, depth then based on template to reduce excessive lip toward the front of the counter top. 

He stormed out telling me not to call him until I boxed in the sinks with 2x4s...

This was a shock because I usually draft out my own plans for the material and have the material fabricated at their shop with nothing more than a payment for material and that's it. No biggy. 

Then, the foreman came out to remeasure, and he was all confused as to why the sinks were framed in place and also forgot to measure for a soap niche in the second bathroom. So, they accepted my dimensions via e-mail; this being the narrowest piece. 

They didn't do any of the cutouts for the fixtures and I had to do all the measurements, onsite, when I clearly told the sales team how I wanted them fabricated, all on center with the cab units and sinks. 

After install, since they were going to use standard construction adhesive, instead of a water-resistant adhesive, I told them I'd install the caps and stools for the soap niches. 

They don't fit and fabrication was completely off by a whole inch on one of them. 

Also, the polishing wasn't complete on the faces and the backslashes weren't ripped to 3/4", instead the full 1-1/4" thick pieces were installed. I have never seen this done and looks way contemporary. 

Did I forget to mention after deposit was made and I tried to request a bevel at 3/8" radius, that the sales woman had no idea what I was talking about. 

Oh, and they damaged my new gyp and texture. 

The question is, how much should I school them, tell them I want repaired, replaced and remedied. I only have an additional two weeks till this unit is rented and there really isn't enough time to get them to take another two months to pull their heads out. 

Oh, I'm on an island too.


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## sledhead54 (Mar 16, 2013)

In my limited experience with fabricated counters, they template all counters instead of taking measurements and drawing pictures. Once the templates are cut, they label each edge to spec desired finish, or what it butts to.

Just sounds like a communication breakdown between you and them as to what is taking place. Nothing quite like full scale labeled templates to look at when the counters show up to say, "Yup, exactly what we measured and agreed upon":laughing:


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## mrcharles (Sep 27, 2011)

- I have never boxed out for a sink before the install.... I do this when they mount the sink to make sure that the 2x catches the flanges. 

- 1-1/4" back splash is standard around here.... Not my favorite look, and 9 out of 10 jobs I sell them on tile back splash. 

- The one thing you did not mention was if they templated or just took measurements? I used to work with a guy that took measurements and just drew it on a notepad..... No longer.... I will only work with companies that template. I did a huge kitchen island with a stepped arch radius and a farm sink and one overhang ended up 1" and the other one was 4", and the faucet hole is off center from where it was suppose to be. Everything gets templated and I am there that day. All the good companies do this anyways.... I have seen GPS done and its cool, but I still like templates more.

- As for missing a measurement... Sorry buddy get in the truck and drive back out here.... 

- The soap dishes not fitting... Sounds like your problem.... you should have at least dry fit them when the guys were there....


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## MTN REMODEL LLC (Sep 3, 2010)

sledhead54 said:


> In my limited experience with fabricated counters, they template all counters instead of taking measurements and drawing pictures. Once the templates are cut, they label each edge to spec desired finish, or what it butts to.
> 
> Just sounds like a communication breakdown between you and them as to what is taking place. Nothing quite like full scale labeled templates to look at when the counters show up to say, "Yup, exactly what we measured and agreed upon":laughing:


 
I've used probably 5 different fabricators here in CO. As *SLED* said, I thought everyone templated. (Some use heavy building paper, some sorta balsa type wood.

Never heard of having to frame in my sink before templating. I would have thought your soap dishes would have been called out as to size.

Where out of state are you?????

By the way, someone mentioned GPS for measuring/templating.... what is GPS (apart from what it normally is)

I think these guys ought to make everything good.... you ordered turnkey apparently, and they f'd up.

Good luck

I have bought pre-edged counter (simple install).... had a sink cut out to my dimensions... but I had their signiture on my measured directions to them. Your installer/fabricator is wrong.... by any standards I know.... sure his portfolio was not BS.


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## TAHomeRepairs (Jun 18, 2012)

Granite guy I usually use uses four inch strips if corrugated plastic for his templates. A little hot glue and scissors gets it done fir him. 

Not sure if it's the GPS, but I used a guy for quartz once they sent a guy with a laptop on a tripod. It had an extendable articulating arm and he would swivel it around and map specific points on the counter. He sketched in the pc, then he mapped it with the arm. They claimed it was like rocket ship accurate. After the install crew went to work..... Let's just say I'd never hire them again. So I don't have a tin of faith in it. It seems like a great idea, but I'll go with the templates any day.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

Every time I've ever had granite or quartz installed, it was always computer templated.

I always give the sink to the countertop guys and they mount it at their shop after they cut the hole. 

They won't start the tops until you give them the sink and faucet around here.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

How do you sign off on a computer template? I & customer approve template, overhangs, projections, corner details, detail near fridge, detail near slide in range etc. If no actual template then what?
Too many possibilities for problems. Template comes back with install, to compare if there is a problem.
I have to have sink, faucet, appliances on site before templating
Rarely have sink mounted at their shop unless it is a vanity


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## BigPoppa (Apr 30, 2014)

My stone guys come in and do thier own templates and install. We do our own templates for laminates and solid surface which we label the hell out of and accompany with pictures, sinks and faucets when we drop off at fabricators. They mount sinks and drill faucet holes and we install tops and build frame out for sinks after install is complete. Either way if we negotiated a deal then I expect them to support thier end of it. I am sure they appreciate when I support my end of the deal and pay the bill. If they do not perform then I do not pay or if they really get me fired up I will backcharge to cover my costs to fix it for them.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

TAHomeRepairs said:


> Granite guy I usually use uses four inch strips if corrugated plastic for his templates. A little hot glue and scissors gets it done fir him.
> 
> Not sure if it's the GPS, but I used a guy for quartz once they sent a guy with a laptop on a tripod. It had an extendable articulating arm and he would swivel it around and map specific points on the counter. He sketched in the pc, then he mapped it with the arm. They claimed it was like rocket ship accurate. After the install crew went to work..... Let's just say I'd never hire them again. So I don't have a tin of faith in it. It seems like a great idea, but I'll go with the templates any day.



I had granite guys do my vanity top and whirlpool ledge this winter and they just came back to do my kitchen. They used this set up http://www.laserproductsus.com/products/lt-55-xl-laser-templator/

The bath turned out perfect.
I guess I'll see how the kitchen comes out. 75sq ft.
They do all the install. I just hook up the drain and water lines. The templating guy just gets the manufacturer and model numbers of sinks faucets, etc. and said they have all the dimensions in a data base in their shop.
He goes over in detail how everything is going to fit and be installed before I sign off on the design.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

I don't know who you called, but like the rest here I never framed anything up.

They come with strips of plywood, layout the template, if they don't provide a sink, they will use your sink for cutout, hot glue and staple everything together and that is it.

I would call someone else who knows what they doing.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

TimNJ said:


> I had granite guys do my vanity top and whirlpool ledge this winter and they just came back to do my kitchen. They used this set up http://www.laserproductsus.com/products/lt-55-xl-laser-templator/
> 
> The bath turned out perfect.
> I guess I'll see how the kitchen comes out. 75sq ft.
> ...


You sign off on the drawing? I would never do it that way, many customers cannot visualize overhangs, size of shapes etc. Then when the top comes the " I did not think it would be that shape/big/small etc" leaves you screwed.
With laminate tops they were cheap enough to do over, not with granite or solid surface.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Of course I signed off.
I also don't see why most customers wouldn't.
Everything is described as in sink and cook top locations, sink reveal, number and location of faucet borings, edge detail, overhang size, seam locations.

I wouldn't be a fabricator and not have the customer sign off. That would open the door to big problems with that 1% of picky lunatics.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

TimNJ said:


> Of course I signed off.
> I also don't see why most customers wouldn't.
> Everything is described as in sink and cook top locations, sink reveal, number and location of faucet borings, edge detail, overhang size, seam locations.
> 
> I wouldn't be a fabricator and not have the customer sign off. That would open the door to big problems with that 1% of picky lunatics.


My point is the customers not understanding how close a 12" overhang will be to nearby cabinet in a heavily trafficed area, or how exactly a 6" radius on the overhang looks compared to a 10" radius. Until they actually see the physical size of the top they sometimes don't understand how close/far it is.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

That's why it is the job of the fabricator to school them.
As with any sale, some customers need hand holding. You explain everything in detail. If they don't understand it, it will be a problem no matter what.

"I want a 12x12 deck". Until you explain how small a 12x12 deck is, then they want bigger.

Actually, I take that back. It is the job of the sales person to school the customer. The customer should have been shown all the options and details on display in the showroom. Then the customer makes the decision.
The fabricator confirms at the job in case any odd ball barriers pop up.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

I can make a deck bigger/ smaller I can't easily change a top on site a day or two before job completion.


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## The Coastal Craftsman (Jun 29, 2009)

I have had 4 different types of measure done on counters. 

First ever guy i used had a gadget where it was on a tripod and a pen with a cable to the tripod. It some how calculated the layout. end product came out fair. Not perfect but acceptable.

2nd guy used a articulating arm gizmo. Had the same result as above but it was a very basic layout. 

3rd guy took measurements. Never ever ever will i use a company who uses this method. They cut the counters wrong 3x and one of the times i even went to the shop to tell them what they needed to do to adjust the counter and they still cut it wrong. They ended up telling my customer to shove it and get another company to do it a few days before thanksgiving.

4th guy used a template made from that sign plastic with hot glue. Counter came out perfect and was even able to view the over hangs and layout before they left to cut. Couldn't have got a better install if they tried.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

rrk said:


> I can make a deck bigger/ smaller I can't easily change a top on site a day or two before job completion.


All the more reason the customer should be made aware of what they picked out before it is made.

I don't think a fabricator wants to make a counter then have the customer say they didn't want that.

Customer signs off on what they are getting. No different than if customer signs off for me ordering an Andersen patio door. They signed for it in the contract and if they want Pella afterwards oh well, they have to pay for it since they signed for Andersen.

My advice is find one fabricator that you know does work properly and stick with them. Don't shop around for them anymore than you would shop around for a plumber or electrician on every job you do.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

You can see the exact door you choose in a showroom, you cannot see an exact countertop for your kitchen in a showroom. The closest you can get is to see the exact mock of your countertop in your house. Door is $1500 which can sometimes be returned/sold/used elsewhere. Granite top is $5000, cannot be returned, or sold for close to cost.
I prefer to limit the possibility of errors and communication problems, it has worked for me for a very long time, it has worked for my supplier who has been doing granite for a very long time, and I have used him for 10 years now.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Then you should have your customer go to the fabricators and do their own slab lay out. If a fabricator won't let your customer do the pattern lay out, get a new fabricator. Otherwise you will end up with "I don't like that color spot there. I want a new counter."

I won't return anything unless the customer pays for the new item...in advance. 

Do you not print out a spec sheet that details everything that will be done and materials used on your jobs and have your customer sign it?


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

TimNJ said:


> Then you should have your customer go to the fabricators and do their own slab lay out. If a fabricator won't let your customer do the pattern lay out, get a new fabricator. Otherwise you will end up with "I don't like that color spot there. I want a new counter."
> 
> I won't return anything unless the customer pays for the new item...in advance.
> 
> Do you not print out a spec sheet that details everything that will be done and materials used on your jobs and have your customer sign it?


Who said anything about color or spots?

I dont know how to explain it any better so you can understand. 
It has to do with the size/shape of the top, some customers cannot visualize a 12" overhang vs. a 10" overhang, a 42" wide clearance vs. 48" wide clearance, a 6" radius vs. a 8" radius. 
Sooooo, when the top is templated with a physical template they can see how the 42" clearance feels and see exactly what the 8" radius looks like on their dogleg island overhang with the custom $3000 artist made column.
For me and them there are no surprises then


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

rrk said:


> Who said anything about color or spots?
> 
> I dont know how to explain it any better so you can understand.
> It has to do with the size/shape of the top, some customers cannot visualize a 12" overhang vs. a 10" overhang, a 42" wide clearance vs. 48" wide clearance, a 6" radius vs. a 8" radius.
> ...




If your customers can't tell the difference between 10" and 12" then that is the least of your worries.
Yes we are talking granite and yes they will complain if there is a color difference more than they will complain about anything.
That is why you have them sign off.
I don't know how to be any more direct.


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## KermieB (Jul 27, 2012)

I guess I'm pretty lucky after reading all the posts in this thread. The company that I use will come in and measure and sometimes make templates if the walls aren't square or there are other mitigating circumstances. They've never let me down. They do the sink cut outs in the shop from my supplied templates and they do the cook top cut outs on site AFTER the tops have been set. They do whatever they need to do with the sink framing based on the design of the sink.

I've used the same people forever and they have never let me down.
http://www.thegranitestore.net/


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