# How much detail in invoices?



## Cashking63 (Jan 4, 2008)

How much detail do you guys do in invoicing? Hourly rate? How many hours?
and for materials do you itemize or just list them all together with a price?


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

no itemizing ever, one line amount at the bottom.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

Depends on who it is receiving the invoice, if it is for a GC that we did an emergency fix for, it has a single line with a total price. Occasionally we will do a service call in a building for the building engineer if we are working in the building anyway, and the homeowner has to pay the bill, those we will break down a material list, with a cost for each item, and a total for labor @$140.00 dollars an hour.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

When you buy a roof from me you are getting a proposal that could easily be 15 paragraphs explaining in great detail what we plan to do. It explains our payment terms. it gives the customer optional upgrades. 

When I bill you you get an invoice that reflects that proposal. The detail is in the proposal. For example it would say... 

new Shingle Roof INstalled: ,,,,$5,500
Optional shingle Upgrade, Color:.... $285

Payments recieved:.....-$1500

Ammount Due



If you look at my proposal it would say:

New Shingle Roof
insert 15 paragraphs here
Price: $5,500

Optional Shingle Upgrade for an additional $285

So the invoice summarizes and reflects the proposal. There is very little detail.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

If it is a T&M job there is a little bit more detail. 

2 men 8 hours each at $75 per man per hour. Total 18 hours.... $1,200
Materials used, 2 bundles of Shingles, 3 tubes of Caulk, Ice Shield, nails etc... $242 

I've been asked before to make my materials balance out, but I only do this upon request. I usually just add it all up roughly and add an arbitrary markup and total out the material in one line.


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## Cashking63 (Jan 4, 2008)

heres my problem, i just finished up a job. customer is happy and paid bill. Now she calls me and wants a detailed Itemized bill. I think her interior decorater, whom i did not get along with real well is trying something. I generally do not care however 99% of my business is from referals, so I want her to be happy.


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## Cashking63 (Jan 4, 2008)

Grumpy said:


> If it is a T&M job there is a little bit more detail.
> 
> 2 men 8 hours each at $75 per man per hour. Total 18 hours.... $1,200
> Materials used, 2 bundles of Shingles, 3 tubes of Caulk, Ice Shield, nails etc... $242
> ...


 Thats what I did, it was a T&M job.

Had top line listed all the labor, scrape, paint... etc basically all activities and a price
next line listed all materials with a combined price
last line had the total.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

My comment is "the only person to see that info is my tax guy!"


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

kevjob said:


> My comment is "the only person to see that info is my tax guy!"


Not if the job is T&M, the customer is buying T & M. As a customer if we had a T&M job I wouldn't pay you for the M until you told me what M I was buying.


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

Cashking63 said:


> heres my problem, i just finished up a job. customer is happy and paid bill. Now she calls me and wants a detailed Itemized bill. I think her interior decorater, whom i did not get along with real well is trying something. I generally do not care however 99% of my business is from referals, so I want her to be happy.


Oh Oh! You charged way too much according to the interior decorator. Her guy would have done a much better job and only charged half as much. You have just been caught!


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## Cashking63 (Jan 4, 2008)

Brock said:


> Oh Oh! You charged way too much according to the interior decorator. Her guy would have done a much better job and only charged half as much. You have just been caught!


 decorator was a "he" and I did charge more than his guy. I did not get "caught " doing anything. i am not trying to hide anything, just trying to find a diplomatic way into making her happy, and avoid any problems with said decorator


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## Tom F. (Sep 3, 2007)

If the customer was happy when you left, why not call and ask if there is now a problem? Because you do not generally provide that level of detail on your final invoices. Express genuine concern with her satisfaction, and maybe you can find out what the real problem is. No point guessing if you are in good standing with the customer. Maybe its her tax person asking, or the contractor boyfriend?


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

FWIW: I don't know how legal this is, but it's been in our contracts for a while (just in case):

[5] MATERIALS: Unless supplied and delivered directly onto the worksite by the client, all materials, construction components, and additional services of any kind used on the contracted job, will be subject to the industry standard 20 percent service fee. In the event that a request is made by the client for an extensively detailed and itemized charge list of materials and components used on the said project; an additional fee will be assessed to cover expenses incurred for the time required to compile said list(s). This amount will be based on the rate of $150.00 per hour - upon the afore mentioned request. This provision is not available on any hired work that is not agreed upon in advance, as a Time and Materials based contract. 
XXXXX Construction Inc. holds the right to refuse provision of the afore mentioned request for itemizations at any time, for any contracted project, unless it has been stipulated to, in a written document, as terms for payment. 

Blah, blah, blah......


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## Cashking63 (Jan 4, 2008)

AtlanticWBConst said:


> FWIW: I don't know how legal this is, but it's been in our contracts for a while (just in case):
> 
> [5] MATERIALS: Unless supplied and delivered directly onto the worksite by the client, all materials, construction components, and additional services of any kind used on the contracted job, will be subject to the industry standard 20 percent service fee. In the event that a request is made by the client for an extensively detailed and itemized charge list of materials and components used on the said project; an additional fee will be assessed to cover expenses incurred for the time required to compile said list(s). This amount will be based on the rate of $150.00 per hour - upon the afore mentioned request. This provision is not available on any hired work that is not agreed upon in advance, as a Time and Materials based contract.
> XXXXX Construction Inc. holds the right to refuse provision of the afore mentioned request for itemizations at any time, for any contracted project, unless it has been stipulated to, in a written document, as terms for payment.
> ...


 
thanks for that. i may run something like this by my attorney, see if I can add it.




minus the Blah, blah, blah of course


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

I have been having people asking for itemized estimates a lot lately.To be honest I have been reluctant to tell them no but I know it is better for me to give one price as opposed to listing everything individualy...


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

JumboJack said:


> I have been having people asking for itemized estimates a lot lately.To be honest I have been reluctant to tell them no but I know it is better for me to give one price as opposed to listing everything individualy...


I wont line item the price, but I will line item the scope of work. This is the minimum scope of work, here is the price for the minimum and here are a few optional upgrades.


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

If they ask for an itemized proposal, I ask if they are planning to do portions of the work themselves and leave it in their court. If they say yes, I have an answer, if they say no, Then I say then there is no need it itemize out my proposal, then.

All extras and change orders above and beyond the proposal, are itemized out on the final invoice. All time and materials are line item priced.


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## BigLou (Jan 30, 2008)

One line on our invoices, which references the draw schedule in the contract.

on the other hand, our proposal/quote has a very detailed itemized listing of everything that we will be doing. I've had the occaisonal request for an itemized listing, ignored the request.

If someday, I have someone that persists in wanting an itemized listing, I will tell than that my software is not set up to provide that detail, and it will be a manual process for which I will have to charge.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

This has been discussed many times in the past, you might want to search on it and see what folks have said in the past.

This is one of my older posts dealing with itemized invoices.



Double-A said:


> We've all run into this type of client before. I explain that we're not in the business of creating a grocery list of materials and that time is money.
> 
> Any cyphering we do on a project is proprietary information and not subject to disclosure outside of the company. The simple reason being is that this is a business of managing costs and mitigating risks, plain and simple. How we do that is what gives us our competitive edge and we're not obliged to disclose that anymore than Wal-Mart or Ford is.
> 
> ...


From another post.



> I think charging time and material is a poor way to run a business. Every single point on an invoice is an invitation to discuss how money could have been saved on the job. For anyone doing service work, its a sure way to a headache.
> 
> When was the last time you bought anything by time and material? Time yes, cell phone usage, etc, but time and material? My guess is "not lately".
> 
> ...


As for breaking it down now, don't do it. Just explain that is not the way you conduct business. If she has any questions, you'll be happy to answer them. If not, would she like to pay by check or credit card?


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## Cashking63 (Jan 4, 2008)

Double-A said:


> This has been discussed many times in the past, you might want to search on it and see what folks have said in the past.
> 
> This is one of my older posts dealing with itemized invoices.
> 
> ...


 Thats the beautiful part, she has already paid, check cleared the bank last week. i just want her to remain happy, and make sure the Id is not messing around


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## Lumpy (Jun 18, 2007)

It is a prickly path. I'll bet the ID is the one pushing the issue. The other side is: Do you want any business from the ID? 

fwiw: I can't afford to turn down or alienate any sources. = $.02


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

That information: You receipts, your overhead, your profit, your charges, your returns, etc. - is your PRIVATE Company (or corporate) information. It is part of your books. NO ONE accept a bank or the IRS has a right to see that. 

If it was not part of the original contract (time and materials and receipts to be submitted to the client) then they do not have a right to look at it. 

It is your company property.

I would tell a client, sorry, it's our COMPANY BUSINESS POLICY that we don't do that....enjoy your home and the hardwork we put into it.


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## Cashking63 (Jan 4, 2008)

Lumpy said:


> It is a prickly path. I'll bet the ID is the one pushing the issue. The other side is: Do you want any business from the ID?
> 
> fwiw: I can't afford to turn down or alienate any sources. = $.02


 
That is what I think too. I cannot really afford to alienate anyone either. that being said, I charge what I charge, no one is going to tell me what I am to charge someone. that is what I think he is/was trying to do.
I have said it many times I Hate ID's, they are such a PITA!


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

I agree that the details are in the proposal. Ours is no less than 4 pages and there is no upper limit. Then our contract is another 8 pages and outlines exactly how and when we will be paid. Our invoices may be a simple as Progress Payment $XXXX.xx per contract.

It sounds to me like you did the job, satisfied your customer, rec'd payment and then the decorator gave them a case of buyers remorse.

You can afford to alienate this designer.

As already suggested, I would call your customer and ask if there is a problem with your work. Any further details would only help the designers case. Make it you and the customer as a team.

But simply put, if the details are in the proposal and contract then all the negotiations are finished and the balance is both parties living up to the agreement.

Good Luck
Dave


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Lumpy said:


> fwiw: I can't afford to turn down or alienate any sources. = $.02


Really? I burn my bridges quit frequently. Once I feel I am being taken advantage of in any way... I return the favor. 


Just decided to play "hard ball" with a GC who wanted to try to play hard ball with me. I've been doing work for him for 3-4 years. He's been getting attidtude this year and getting slow to pay this year. The other day he tried to pull rank, and I stopped him dead in his tracks. he did a 'bout face and is now playing damage control. I didn't go into business for myself to be treated like a child by people whoa re not my parents.

Want to play hard ball? I play fast pitch. I'm a really easy guy to gt along with but the moment someone starts to mess with my money... watch out.


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

Grumpy said:


> Really? I burn my bridges quit frequently. Once I feel I am being taken advantage of in any way...



Grumpy's right. NEVER EVER allow anyone to take advantage of you, or attempt to exploit you or your work. 
The day you do, it will change your attitude everyday you wake up and go to do that work. Everyday becomes stressful.

Face it, we do the work we do, because we are good at it, it gives us a sense of satisfaction, and a pat on the back when we pick up the final check and a "Thank You" for a job well done from the client.
That does not exist with certain types of customers. 

Years ago, I allowed myself to get sucked into that with a customer, because I really wanted all the work. Boy, did I regret it. I finished up the contract I was on, took money off for work non yet performed because of material delivery delays, pulled the crew off....and never looked back... *WEW...what a sense of relief*. Never again!.
The guy wanted us to stay and do: 2 garage addditions, a kitchen remodel, a second floor addition, a wrap-around farmer's porch, and sunroom....all on his idea of what he wanted to pay. (Example: he wanted a large 2 sided wrap-around farmer's porch, with electical, new roof alterations. A large, fully-glassed 4 season sunroom with an attached multilevel deck leading down to his pool....done for $30K, from our quote of $55K-$60K)
All the money in the world, was not worth someone trying to exploit, take advantage of, and manipulate me. That guy was the Town Jerk.


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

Cashking63 said:


> Thats what I did, it was a T&M job.
> 
> Had top line listed all the labor, scrape, paint... etc basically all activities and a price
> next line listed all materials with a combined price
> last line had the total.



Sounds like she got her itemized invoice, in the first place. So what's the beef???


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

Grumpy said:


> Really? I burn my bridges quit frequently. Once I feel I am being taken advantage of in any way... I return the favor.
> 
> 
> Just decided to play "hard ball" with a GC who wanted to try to play hard ball with me. I've been doing work for him for 3-4 years. He's been getting attidtude this year and getting slow to pay this year. The other day he tried to pull rank, and I stopped him dead in his tracks. he did a 'bout face and is now playing damage control. I didn't go into business for myself to be treated like a child by people whoa re not my parents.
> ...



I'm the same way Grump!! Only I'll blow the sucker up, and relight it if needed.


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## Angus (Jul 12, 2007)

Our invoices are in great detail. On the other hand, our estimates are materials being bid and a final quote. Too many times a customer will just take your estimate to another store and say "will you beat this". When they get the final invoice, it has everything line itemed. After all, by this time, they have put 50% or more down. So they pretty much "own" the invoice. My 2 cents. Hope it helps.


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## Forry (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm not shy about information given to a client if the work is T+M. On my proposal, it states what the hourly rate is, and what the markup on expenses is. I stick to it. Before I make up an invoice, I prepare what is called a "job sheet". This sheet is where I do my math. I total hours, subs, permits, fees, markups, and anything else pertinant to the job, then total it at the bottom. On my invoices for T+M (Not bid work) I have labor total and sub totals, and materials total, and whatever other expenses I want to separate out. I don't provide an itemized materials sheet unless requested (twice now, and not a problem, the "job sheet" is in my clients file right in my briefcase, until final payment), at which point I provide it with a smile, 'cause I've figured all my costs accurately, and am happy to prove it. The key for me is stating in my T+M contract what the invoices will be based on. I think that if a client is paying T+M, they have the right to know where the money went. It wouldn't be right to have an estimate, have the final invoice be different than the estimate, and not be willing to explain where the money went. Just my way I guess...


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