# Used equipment...



## mattbatson (Nov 30, 2006)

Okay, I am looking at getting used equipment to start my side-excavation business (when I'm not home inspecting or flipping)...

I am thinking of used first, then, as the business grows (if it grows...), I would sell of the used and buy newer stuff.

Thinking of a medium sized loader/backhoe. That way I have both on the same peice of equipment. I tow this behind what ever truck I buy. 
So far as the truck, I am seriously looking at either a used 650 or 550 ford powerstroke with dump bed. I know the capacity will not be great, but for my small jobs should be sufficient.
I am assuming this will tow the Cat, or Kubota, or whatever it is I decide on...
And that brings me to the equipment itself. Which brands should I stick to? I see the Case and John Deere's all over the Heavy Equipment Trader...does this mean they are unreliable? Should I stick with Cat and nothing else?

I am a decent mechanic (raced car's all my life), but know little of diesels and heavy equipment, and would be learning as I go.

Appreciate any advice you guys can provide from past experience. 
As I said, I plan to start small. If the demand is there, I will grow along with it...possibly buying much bigger equipment in the future.
thanks,
matt


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Generic advice on equipment of any sort... buy whatever you can get parts for locally, and field service (should it be required) from a local dealer. For me, that would mean Bobcat, CAT, and Deere. For you, it might be something totally different. I privately wonder if the Takeuchi, Komatsu, Hitachi, and Kobelco users have ever had to wait for a part to come from Timbuktu.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

MD nailed it. 

Purchase a machine that you can get parts for, or repairs you cannot do, locally.

I have had good experience with Case equipment, Never operated any Deere. 
Cat is great but parts are more expensive therefore cost of ownership _might_ be greater.

My small jobs, I'm doing mini excavator and skid steers. The backhoe is just too much in terms of maneuverability.

What type of work do you plan to pick up?


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## sgrprince (Aug 4, 2006)

I'll preface this by saying that I don't do excavation, and never have, but am looking at it as a possible career when I get out of college, and I've thought about getting a truck myself. Maybe somebody who makes their living excavating could enlighten me on this, but I think that a f-550 or f-650 dump is too small. For one thing, you're going to need a cdl when you're towing something anyway. Here in ND, you need a cdl if your trailer is over 16k lbs gvw or you're over 26k combo. With a f-550 at around 18k gvw, and a trailer that will tow any sort of medium size backhoe, you're going to be over 26k, and if you were to try to tow a full size backhoe, you'd be over 16k on the trailer. 

Around here, at state vehicle auctions, 33k lb gvw single axle dumps go for from around $6k to $10k. You could certainly spend more than that if you wanted something nice from a dealer. Insurance on a bigger truck might be worse, but I don't know how much worse it would be than an f-650, which is just a wimpy single axle dump. Yeah, you could just do more trips with a lighter truck, but if you're getting paid on a bid basis, more trips are going to cost you more money in time and fuel than you'd pay to just run the bigger truck. Basically, for the most part, I don't really see the benefits to running an f-550 versus a 33k gvw single axle dump, if you're in the excavation business (for other businesses, like a fence guy who might just move spoils from auger holes or something) it might make more sense. Guys who know something, please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## tnmtn (Dec 15, 2006)

at a minimum a 6500 series truck would be needed for towing a medium sized backhoe. there is some value to what sgrprince was saying about the over cdl trucks. it really depends on what kind of work you are looking to do. i run a compact backhoe and am shopping for a single axle truck. will probably end up with a used late model 6500. for the work i am doing i only occasionally need a tandem axle. when i do i add the cost of a friend to bring his over and sub him for it. the dump for me would be for lighter loads and towing safety. (larger brakes). i work by myself most of the time and find it easier to have most things delivered. again this can be figured into the bid. i can only run one machine at a time. whether it is truck or backhoe. i make more in the backhoe than in the truck so that part gets subbed out. the truck drivers are more likely to pass cards out for me when i am giving them back some work. people tend to remember you better when there is money concerned. i am starting out as well and any help getting the name out is good.
good luck


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## mattbatson (Nov 30, 2006)

I will look into the bigger trucks. I noticed some International single axles with smaller dump beds for sale at pretty reasonable prices. I know International has been making diesels for a very long time...

I guess there are no excavator manufacturers that I should avoid then...
They are all pretty equal so far as reliability I guess.

I would assume that in todays day and age it would not be a problem getting parts for excavators made in japan or china, or whatever...
I know that so far as car's go, the foreign made ones...even Hyundai and such, are better than american. More reliable and better fit and finish.
Dont know how this translates over to excavators though.

Not worried about getting a CDL, as I had a class A for many years back in the day. Will look into insurance cost differences and such to compare. 

Thanks for all the suggestions,
matt


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## denick (Feb 13, 2006)

matt,

I think there's a lot more to it than has been said. I feel for the guys that have been at this for a while to give advice to someone who wants to start a part time business is difficult. 

You haven't said what market your in or what type of work you would be doing with this equipment.

This is a subject that you could get a hundred reply's to and everyone be different and in my own opinion, everyone be wrong for what you might end up doing.


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## IDIGDIRT (Nov 27, 2006)

Denick summed it it up great, however here are a few things to consider. When looking for DEALS on used construction equipment, avoid a lot of the internet dealers, espicially ones located near shipping ports. They are selling what is commonly known as "gray market" machines. Same brand name as ones sold in America but are manufactured for sale overseas. They are not manufactured to the same standards and parts will be hard if not impossible to find. There is a class action lawsuit pending now on a couple of large distributors in Florida.

Also, look carefully at the dump trucks sold by municipalities. Most of them run central hydraulics for the dump bed and snow plows which run all the time. They are not designed for long trips and interstate travel. And the dump beds tend to come with short sides. They are designed that way for highway workers to be able to shovel debris over the side. Although the truck may have a 33k gross weight you won't be able to carry the full payload due to capacity of the bed.

I of my trucks is a Ford F-900 w/ 10' bed and 42" sides and I scale 32,800 lbs. with 8.5 tons of material. However this is in Va. and you need to check on the laws in your state. Hope this helps.


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## mattbatson (Nov 30, 2006)

Idigdirt,
great info, good tips on the trucks.
I will be doing smaller jobs, like driveways, basements, etc...

If I start getting larger jobs, I will expand the operation.

From one of the posts, it sounds like a skidsteer and an excavator would be best...rather then a loader/backhoe combination.

I really just wanted to find out if there were models I should avoid...that sort of thing.
I imagine everyone on here has made mistakes with their choices in machinery, and I simply wanted to hear some of them.


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## chompchomp12 (Oct 12, 2006)

Great questions matt I've enjoyed reading your posts:

I'm in the same boat, want to start a part time excavation business, I've been researching the concepts first, processes and procedures, estimating earthwork, etc...

One question I have for the Forum is when you dig a basement for a new home/addition isn't the amount of soil remove small enough that you can spread it around the site, thus eliminating the need for a dump truck? 

On bigger basements if you need to remove soil from the site do you sub out a truck to haul away the soil?

Questions for matt:

Do you know how to operate the equipment you want to purchase, safely, if so where did you learn to do so? (I need to learn). 

Have you considered leasing or renting the equipment you need, to and buying once you get established, thus eliminating a higher start up costs? 

Anyway it sounds like you are further along in your venture than I am. Good luck in your venture.:thumbsup:


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

chompchomp12 said:


> One question I have for the Forum is when you dig a basement for a new home/addition isn't the amount of soil remove small enough that you can spread it around the site, thus eliminating the need for a dump truck?


I'm no digger, but I know the answer to this one. "If you're lucky" is the answer. On some lots, absolutely not. There's no tolerance for a grade change like that. Matter of fact, on many tight builds, you even have to haul off the topsoil you scraped back and bring it back when it's time for finish grade. I'm just not seeing how you can get away without a dump truck. Some of the little bit of digging that I sub out, I need the excavator to store the spoils in the dump truck for a few hours, and return it to the hole or ditch when I'm done doing my work so they don't screw up the whole property.


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## mattbatson (Nov 30, 2006)

Yes, I have operated both skidsteers and mini excavators. These are pretty easy to operate, and within a day or so, you can be pretty proficient and efficient. 
I have considered renting, and may try that for a job or two.

Still have some things to learn about soil and general practice...

But it will come with time.

I dont think it is rocket science...just need to gather some info before I go digging for pay.

If I buy I'll post up pics.


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## dayexco (Mar 4, 2006)

if you're going to be digging basements, get at LEAST a 120 sized machine. anything smaller, you won't have any reach to dig, or to cast the dirt far enough away from the excavation without moving it with a loader, etc.


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## Earth and Turf (Sep 26, 2006)

to the question about hauling dirt from basements. Here in the Indianapolis area I work part time for an excavation co. They have 1 320 cat excavator, a 287 MTL and a couple of dozers. They also have 2 kenworth T-800 trucks. We dig alot of basements there are a couple of trucking companys in the area that only haul dirt for basements. You would not believe the amount of dirt moved around the city daily. Most average production homes the basement will get dug in one day and have 6-7 trucks for 6-8 hours. There are very few lots that you can get away with not hauling off the dirt. I have been working with them for about 2 years. I am to the point where I run the 320 to dig. It is definately not an easy thing to pick up. Sure anyone can run a mini or a full size hoe but can you dig a basement in one day with a flat bottom? I thought I could too until you work with someone to help you fix it. I am very lucky to have had a patient teacher. I would recommend working for someone before you start there is so much to learn. On the Job Training is the best way. Sorry for so long.


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## chompchomp12 (Oct 12, 2006)

Earth: 

You bring up a great point about working for someone to gain experience especially with regards to learning the proper methods. 

Here's the dumb question of the day. With regards to hauling dirt from a basement does the cut get hauled to a land fill or a materials yard? I know a bigger excavator with multiple jobs in the same vicinity will take cut from one site and use it for fill on another site. 

Any Excavator looking for some part time help in Chicago???

Thanks for the input, I enjoy the forum.


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## Earth and Turf (Sep 26, 2006)

There are several gravel pits that they are now dumping clean fill in and a lot of the basement dirt goes there. Some of it will go to new subdivisions most of it depends on the weather. The gravel pits will keep the access good enough for the trucks to get around because they get 25 bucks per truck of clean dirt. They are filling them in to eventually build on the site. sounds scarry to me building on 30 foot of fill but they say when the gravel vein is gone and they have to move the land will get prime money being on a private lake.


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## 690E (Jan 4, 2007)

_Okay, I am looking at getting used equipment to start my side-excavation business_ .....

So hit all the auctions and learn quick what is out there. I started with a Ford 655c loader backhoe with extendahoe that just will not die. This machine weighs over 18,000 pounds and has a hoe reach of about 22 feet - which is more than a lot of track hoes twice its size. I would stick to Deere backhoes generally- parts are reasonable and the machines are heavy and durable.

John Deere makes engines like Singer made sewing machines in 1898. I have a 1991 550g dozer that can be buried in three feet of snow and it will start with just a touch of the key. These machines have no glo plugs and no start fluid injectors. Turn the key for a fraction of a second and its running clean. You really have to see it to believe it after all the issues with many diesels starting cold.

John Deere track excavators are a cooperation with Hitachi. Last I checked the JD's start in Japan, then get the boom and stick built out east USA installed along with a JD engine, hopefully still from the USA. 
Some had hydraulic systems from Germany, Italy and the USA, so its a real borderless machine.

_I know that so far as car's go, the foreign made ones...even Hyundai and such, are better than american. More reliable and better fit and finish.
Dont know how this translates over to excavators though_

Sorry, but I see this as a cancerous fallacy that if continued, will destroy whats remaining of our industrial base. Sure there has been some junk, but so true from Japan also. All the vehicles are becoming pretty much the same and I think we need to find the best one that does our job with a heavy load toward the machine with the most US content, labor and materials. I do not see any chinamen lining up to buy my services, so why in hell should I line his pants with dollars from this country. Money spent here stays here and goes around to all of our benefit.

Homeland security means nothing if we lose the machinists, machinery and determination to build heavy machinery, diesel engines and industrial equipment.


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

mdshunk said:


> Generic advice on equipment of any sort... buy whatever you can get parts for locally, and field service (should it be required) from a local dealer. For me, that would mean Bobcat, CAT, and Deere. For you, it might be something totally different. I privately wonder if the Takeuchi, Komatsu, Hitachi, and Kobelco users have ever had to wait for a part to come from Timbuktu.


I've never had any problems getting parts for our Kobelco excavators. Even when we had to get a cab replaced it came in within a week.:thumbup:


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## lazerguy (Sep 28, 2007)

When looking for used equipment, take the time to gain as much knowledge as possible before you buy.

Not to say I'm an expert, but here's a list of things you DON'T want in a used machine:
- No-start engine. Dealers make all sorts of reassuring explanations... ''Oh, you know, it just needs a little this or that and it will be up and running'' If you can't test it, stay away from it, even if the price is dirt cheap. (unless it's sold with a solid warranty, which is rare with used machines under $20000) When you test, chances are you aren't familiar with the kind or model of machine, so take your time, have the seller explain all the controls, and make sure you try EVERY speed and movement;
- Leaking fluids under the machine, or along the backhoe/loader cylinders, hoses or arms;
- Coolant in the oil or vice-versa;
-Anything seized;
- An engine that hardly starts with lots of smoke (unless it's really cold like 0F);
- Welds on the backhoe, loader arms or buckets. Machinery gets beat up like you wouldn't believe... then breaks and is welded. A weld is never as straight or as strong as the original steel, plus the hard abuse may have caused other trouble that you won't notice at first glance;
-Strange noise or incorrect behavior of the brakes/drivetrain. While some external brake discs can be replaced by the owner at a low cost, a repair in the rear differential can cost so much that you'll have to scrap the machine;
- Excessively loose bushings/pins, or any signs of no/bad maintenance. Machinery lasts long, and depending on your budget you may be looking at backhoes in their 20's, 30's or even 40's...
After such a long career, the remaining value depends on whether the machine was abused or used normally, and whether it was maintained properly.

As for auctions, I have been told that they are dumps for severely damaged machines that dealers don't want to sell themselves.
Some machines are given a quick fix so they can just be driven up the ramp to the auction... whatever happens then isn't the dealer's problem anymore.
Some guys went to pick up their newly acquired backhoes at the end of the auction, only to find they couldn't even drive them up on the trailer...

I got some useful tips on older used backhoes when talking to a new equipment dealer. He wasn't very interested in selling me an older machine (too little profit, too much trouble, so he just sends them to auctions) so his advice was relatively unbiased.

I got a nice 1969 Case 680CK backhoe for $9800 CAN at a used farm equipment dealer. Previously owned by a small town's public services, and really well cared for: starts instantly without ether, no smoke, no leaks, no welds, tranny & shuttle shift well in all speeds, hydraulics all good, brakes good, tires good, rear bucket teeth like new, paint OK, pins and bushings OK.

Go for the most popular models of popular brands, like Deere 310/410 or Case 580/680, (for backhoes) it makes it a lot easier to find parts, manuals, and advice. How many of each brand/model you find on machinerytrader.com tells a lot about how easy to fix them. It's not because people get rid of them more, it's because more machines were sold.

Being able to find parts, and at a reasonable cost, will make the difference between operating your backhoe for many more years or scrapping it after a season. You can buy older Owner / Repair / Parts manuals (and parts) online at ytmag.com, manuals.us, agkits.com, or ssbtractor.com.

Good luck!


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