# Homeowner "counter offer"



## WarriorWithWood (Jun 30, 2007)

If the drywall is that bad, imagine the framing behind it. You know there's a reason that was the only wall they "covered up".


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I had a counter offer today.


If I came down $200 on a $800 I'd be in his budget and then I'll get the work.


----------



## fourcornerhome (Feb 19, 2008)

I appreciate how she would be delighted to have you complete the work under her terms.:laughing: Can you blame her?


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I had a counter offer today.
> 
> 
> If I came down $200 on a $800 I'd be in his budget and then I'll get the work.


Did she at least offer you a wheel of cheese too :laughing:


----------



## W-Tinc (Feb 15, 2008)

From the description of her, and those pictures, you would be crazy to make almost any type of agreement with her, even if she agreed to your price.


----------



## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

W-Tinc said:


> From the description of her, and those pictures, you would be crazy to make almost any type of agreement with her, even if she agreed to your price.


Seriously, & I only raised my rate $5/hr!!!

Still haven't heard back and don't really expect to. Even if she accepted, I'd of paid for it in the end. Thank goodness I didn't need the work.


----------



## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Oh now that's just a sight of beauty.


Worst I've seen...


----------



## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

Wow - If that mess was mine I'd be GLAD to pay someone to fix it, not arguing over the price!


----------



## catfish (Jul 19, 2007)

Gus Dering said:


> She is a victim of HGTV.
> 
> When do those shows get the pleasure of being sued for a DIY disaster?
> 
> I would love to see a show that teaches you how easy it is to preform your own surgery. That would be good TV.


I have seen a show on how to trepan yourself.


----------



## JesseCocozza (Aug 20, 2011)

What's all the fuss about? Once that Sheetrock is taped and mudded it'll look like a fresh $10 bill.


----------



## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

TimelessQuality said:


> 'We would love to help you out on this project, but am unable to at this time... You see, my truck broke down and was repaired at a qualified dealer. The bill seemed too high to me (you know, unskilled labor to take it apart), so I have sent them an offer that is more to my liking. I'm waiting for their reply, so I can get my truck back.'


 that is a awesome:laughing: response


----------



## A-1 Interiors (Oct 12, 2011)

wow you can run a corner bead horizontally between the 3rd and 4th butt down lol


----------



## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> The way I see it, if you don't have the money to execute a project properly, then change the scope, or don't do it at all.
> 
> Seeing as though she's a lawyer and this at least her second home, I have a hard time believing the no money story.


not a very good lawyer obviously with accepting work like that in her home..

this Biatch made me cringe when i read that post....Tell her to go scratch...and that she can pay her paralegals unskilled wages..


----------



## Gough (May 1, 2010)

That job made so many of my "alarm bells" ring that I could hardly hear myself think. I learned years ago not to let the HO supply materials, unless they were the EXACT ones that I specified. We've also had clients offer to do demo, clean up the job site, etc. What we learned quickly is that it never gets done in a timely fashion. There's nothing like rolling up in the morning to find out that the HO didn't do the demo that he was supposed to do the night before. We finally added contract language in those cases that induces the cost for us to do that additional work if it's not been done in a timely manner.


----------



## oldfrt (Oct 10, 2007)

If I walked in on a project like this and saw that
there were still some tools,saws,levels laying around,
two scenario's come to mind:
1)DIY-HO got in over their head
2) Tools bought by HO for BIL or newbie who would work cheap

Maybe she found someone who needed to do community service
(being a lawyer and all)and hoped to get it done for free;:whistling


----------



## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

Well, I did some digging and found a Facebook page. It does in fact point to DIY. Threre is a photo of the kitchen from November 2011 when the work was first done with a post boasting about how the demo was finished, cabinets and countertops blink ordered, etc.... What a joke.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Ohhh Facebook!


----------



## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

You should have taken the job. It'd make for an interesting thread :whistling:laughing::laughing:


----------



## 4 seasons (Jan 4, 2010)

On our behalf, please accept the job so we can have more pics of that terrible house. cmon.


----------



## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

cmon..post the facebook url so we can all visit it..and recommend you


----------



## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

Gus Dering said:


> She is a victim of HGTV.
> 
> When do those shows get the pleasure of being sued for a DIY disaster?





CENTERLINE MV said:


> Well, I did some digging and found a Facebook page. It does in fact point to DIY. Threre is a photo of the kitchen from November 2011 when the work was first done with a post boasting about how the demo was finished, cabinets and countertops blink ordered, etc.... What a joke.


 That is what I was talking about. :thumbsup:

And she is a lawyer? Wtf is she waiting for? :laughing:

She will make this somebody's nightmare before its all over. Best be glad its not you.


----------



## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

4 seasons said:


> On our behalf, please accept the job so we can have more pics of that terrible house. cmon.


Maybe CT can contribute and make it an education thread series for what not to do and the red flags to look for


----------



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

After they made their lower counter offer you should have said GREAT!!

OK, now, what part of the project do you want to eliminate?

And the subsequent answer to their response :

Well people. You plan on paying me less so I just assumed that you had trimmed the project down so that it would correspond to the decrease in compensation.

:w00t:


----------



## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

This was originally in Mike's Awesome Youtube thread (I think sparky posted it??)....it's quite fitting:


----------



## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

great vid centerline..


----------



## WarriorWithWood (Jun 30, 2007)

That's a classic vid.:thumbsup:


----------



## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

If you had taken that job, after you agreed to her terms, the scope would have crept, the full pay would have been withheld, and *then* she would have sued you for breach of contract.


----------



## white_lightning (Jun 6, 2012)

We should start a commercial fund. Lets plaster that vid all over the DIY, and HGTV.
Thats a great find.


----------



## MarkNoV (Apr 29, 2006)

I will bet you she will call Mike Holmes, go on camera, and with trembling lips and teary eyes, tell a story of evil contractors refusing to help her.

Her type never quit.

Mark


----------



## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

moorewarner said:


> If you had taken that job, after you agreed to her terms, the scope would have crept, the full pay would have been withheld, and *then* she would have sued you for breach of contract.


I disagree, if you wanted that job you would have a down payment that covers everything you would buy, the next draw would put you in the profit zone and the last two draws would be pure profit. It wouldn't bother me like it does some of you that price was negotiable…..its just a game, play to win!


----------



## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

If she wants to hire ALL of her own subs, order her own material, install her own trim, install her own insulation, and paint everything herself, what in the WORLD would make you think she'd accept such a high proposal?


----------



## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> If she wants to hire ALL of her own subs, order her own material, install her own trim, install her own insulation, and paint everything herself, what in the WORLD would make you think she'd accept such a high proposal?


Again, its a game , play to win. At least use it as practice. My contract work is all about working for DIYers,


----------



## J L (Nov 16, 2009)

I'd rather not "win" that game.


----------



## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

The only way to "win" a game like that is to cheat, and that ain't my style. Not only that, but she knows the law far better than I, as it is her educational background & profession. One thing in life that I've learned---more than anything else---is that those who know the laws, and how to manipulate them, ALWAYS win.


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Stephen H said:


> you already KNOW you don't want to work for this person-so there is nothing to be gained by even attampting to explain you reasoning or justify your costs.
> stephen


Yep might as well have fun with her


----------



## wyoming 1 (May 7, 2008)

Once you said she was attorney that was the final red flag for me.


----------



## Paradox (Sep 11, 2011)

Sometimes it's nice to be reminded why I have such a negative predisposition towards lawyers besides the usual bogus lawsuit or insurance settlement.


----------



## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Many attorneys have ben my clients and never a problem.


----------



## Anderson (Sep 7, 2009)

Here is a client that obviously has a need and you have the skill to fill that need. The problem is that you are either not interested in the work. In which case you should have just told her upfront. Or you are not good at negotiating.
By the looks of the pictures there is a large amount of money on the table so you should be interested. 
I have clients like this all the time. Either old or women mostly and have been burned before. They are just afraid of who the next person they hire will be and how they will screw them over. 
Once I have gained there trust I have found that these types of clients have been some of my best yet. They refer me to all there friends that figure if you worked for these difficult people then you must be pretty good.


----------



## CENTERLINE MV (Jan 9, 2011)

Anderson said:


> Here is a client that obviously has a need and you have the skill to fill that need. The problem is that you are either not interested in the work. In which case you should have just told her upfront. Or you are not good at negotiating.
> By the looks of the pictures there is a large amount of money on the table so you should be interested.
> I have clients like this all the time. Either old or women mostly and have been burned before. They are just afraid of who the next person they hire will be and how they will screw them over.
> Once I have gained there trust I have found that these types of clients have been some of my best yet. They refer me to all there friends that figure if you worked for these difficult people then you must be pretty good.


I'm not sure if you read my posts. This woman was never burned. I had her trust within the first five minutes of meeting with her. She wanted someone to come in and rescue her DIY disaster.

When it comes to my rate, and what I need to charge to stay in business, there IS NO negotiating. 

This term was brought up recently and is rather fitting for this scenario:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

jamestrd said:


> Why?..They're just like anyone else.. If you do good work and are an honorable guy, what do you have to fear?
> 
> I have worked for many attorneys and have yet to have a problem.
> 
> They really cant be bothered...they put their money where their mouth is..and just want what the pay for like anyone else..


 James- in my very first week of business- I did a small repair for a lawyer.
I remember it very clearly-it cost $80 ( this was 25 years ago or so!)

I went down to the lawyers office to get paid-and while there I told him of several other items on the roof that he should attend to in the future-- no immediate rush or concern- but that he should put them on his long term list of things to do.

Well the lawyer proceeded to inform me that he wasn't going to pay the $80 because---in his opinion----- I should have fixed all the other things as well and included them in the $80 fee.

of course all the other things were several days work and so I certainly wasn't going to do them included in the original $80 fee.

the lawyer informed me that he wasn't going to pay the $80 he owed me-and that there wasn't anything I could do about it!

You know what?-as a practical matter there wasn't really anything I could do about it.

It doesn't really matter if you or I are honorable or if we do good work-- what matters,when dealing with a lawyer is if THEY are honorable-because if they choose to screw you---there isn't much you can do about it.

It was a GREAT lesson to learn-especially for only $80.

since then I have worked for many lawyers-they have all been good customers including the 2 lawyers I worked for this year-one of whom was a FANTASTIC customer

but you don't forget the first one who screws you-THAT one you remember your whole life-especially since at the time $80 was about what my family of 4 spent on groceries and diapers for a week----we really needed that $80.

stephen


----------



## eastend (Jan 24, 2006)

most lawyers are trained to be adversarial, so it often becomes part of their nature, and can carryover to their personal interactions that have nothing to do with their work.


----------



## Gough (May 1, 2010)

In 40+ years, we've worked with a lot of different clients, from lawyers to farmers (out here, they are mainly "growers", since they aren't raising livestock. Overall, I'd have to say that our best clients have been growers. More often than not, they'll hand us a final check while we're loading out. We've worked for a lot of lawyers as well. One year, nearly all of our work was for professors at the law school. I don't think we've ever had a lawyer who was a "difficult" client. Again, it's a broad generalization, but our worst clients have been business owners, typically slow to pay, often badgering us to increase the scope of work, and inflexible about scheduling. 

All that being said, our single worst client has been a grower. He gave us a rubber check for the downpayment, but it took long enough to sort that out that we were almost done by that time was obvious. He took 89 days to pay us. I was counting because we have 90 days to file a lien and I didn't want to miss that chance. I was so nervous about the check, that I went to his bank and cashed the check then I there. I was a little nervous walking over to our bank with $12K+ in my pocket, but not as nervous as I was about him stiffing us. I guess he was struggling financially, since the bank repossessed his combines and tractors just BEFORE harvest.

Clients, wouldn't this work be easier without them?


----------



## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I have had all good experiences working for lawyers, I have a get out of jail free card from one with his personal cell number on the back, hope I don't have to use it but its nice to have nonetheless. 
And I did a roof for one last year who is handling my divorce and I'm gonna build him a 12x16 shed/ pole barn for payment (labor only).


Wise contractor once say " when you work for a lawyer, do a good job and make friends with them" 
Great advice


----------



## realelectrician (Jul 13, 2011)

"I appreciate your expertise and licenses that you have which could justify your hourly rate.* I would like to keep our project within a reasonable budget* which is why I will be bringing in materials and also why I would like to counter your bid with a xx hourly rate for yourself and a xx hourly rate for your crew members.* I feel confident that there are unskilled portions of this job, such as demolition and cleaning that does not justify a master carpenter’s wage.

Under these terms, we would be delighted for you to complete our kitchen renovation."

My response would be:

Sounds like you know it all and have it all under control what do you need me for? Good luck on your project.


----------



## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

CENTERLINE MV said:


> I'm not sure if you read my posts. This woman was never burned. I had her trust within the first five minutes of meeting with her. She wanted someone to come in and rescue her DIY disaster.
> 
> When it comes to my rate, and what I need to charge to stay in business, there IS NO negotiating.
> 
> ...


The largest construction companies in America like Walsh, Turner, Tutor Perini, etc understand the concept of opportunity cost. It's important for the guys of our scale to understand it too. 

You were smart to not compromise your terms on this project. I am having a hard time understanding why some people think you should have done whatever it took just to land the job. You would have a) been bogged down in a nightmare project, b) been saddled with a customer with unreasonable expectations, c) lost out on opportunities to take on other work which would result in lower earnings in the given period of time the project occupied.


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

An Estimator from a world wide contractor, they build cities, once told me if they were booked and bid a job, they bid it with all new equipment & personnel....

They were/are not without work....:thumbup::whistling:thumbsup:


----------



## Five Star (Jan 15, 2009)

CITY DECKS INC said:


> Straight labor rates do not work when you get to a certain level of professionalism. Too many hands in the pot. I will agree with bc on that I do leave out the fussy finishes which are as personal as there underwear drawer and thats exactly how I word it. I do charge heft install rate to install them.
> Job rates and thats it!
> Do doctors give discounts?? No so why should you ever feel any less of professional then a dr or lawyer. Once we all maintain the highest level of standards and professionalism there will be no more fussing over numbers. It’s work all the time but it pays big.
> That way there not keeping tabs on you fort coffee or lunch or if you have run out to check on another job. Keep in mind or may I remind you all of this. You are and should be in business because you want to control of your life. That means you say when where and how much.
> ...


I'm with you 100% on this


----------



## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

griz said:


> An Estimator from a world wide contractor, they build cities, once told me if they were booked and bid a job, they bid it with all new equipment & personnel....
> 
> They were/are not without work....:thumbup::whistling:thumbsup:


I have been adding a small percentage more of overhead to my estimates lately since I have been looking for financing for some new equipment, if I am going to be using a new machine on their job you can bet its going to cost them. :laughing:


----------

