# Do you feel you deserve to get paid?!



## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Just wanna get a few thoughts on the issue that I'm sure everyone is familiar with.

You get a call for a remodeling project, let's say a kitchen renovation. You meet with the client, you go over the project, measure everything, etc in between they ask you questions about this and that...you answer them, etc you spent about 1hr on your first visit.

You go home, do the layout, you sent it out to a few distributors for pricing,etc you put together an estimate and you contact the HO again to set up second appointment to make sure the layout is right, everything will work out, etc.

Now you don't hear back from the HO, your text and email is ignored, you did all that work for nothing, you got other people involved, etc and you haven't presented your estimate.

I understand fair bidding, you submit your proposal and you get a reply, thank you for your time but we decided to go with someone else. When that happens that is perfectly fine, this is what we do and this is part of out business.

What about when you do all that work and you not given a chance to present your proposal or anything else. HO had you come out, waste your time for 1hr getting his questions answered, and making you do all that work afterwards and just to simply ignore you after that.

Do you have the right to get compensated for your time and consultation because your time was wasted for HO's own gain and HO wasn't interested in getting a bid for his job and used you to get whatever advice he can without looking for a bid?

What is your take on that? Do you think you have a legal right to collect for wasted time in this type of a situation?


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

How about this? Meeting them is free, but there's a bid preparation fee (or proposal fee) if they are serious and would like to proceed. The trick is to explain it like it's perfectly normal since you will contact suppliers on their behalf for product, etc.

And the other thing is that if they want a range of "how much" initially, it has to be explained that it's always dependent on the materials, etc. as if they control it and you are just there to serve and deliver. That may sound like a strange thing to say, but I picked that up from a client who kept saying "it it what it is" (dependent on their selections, which it is) and I've used it to everyone's advantage since then. I think it keeps folks honest about their intentions.

This all being said, I haven't done it myself, but my jobs are smaller and I get a good sense of whether the project will be a "go" or not.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

MarkJames said:


> How about this? Meeting them is free, but there's a bid preparation fee (or proposal fee) if they are serious and would like to proceed. The trick is to explain it like it's perfectly normal since you will contact suppliers on their behalf for product, etc.


Mark, all that is fine, but you can't get to the proposal stage. You cannot arrange your second meeting with a HO, because you don't hear back from them. It seems all they wanted is for you to come out, answer some questions, and that was it. I'm talking about this circumstances.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

If you wanted to get paid for that charge for estimates upfront.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> If you wanted to get paid for that charge for estimates upfront.


I didn't expected to get paid and I was going to submit my proposal to complete the project as I been doing for 30 years.

This is a different situation, and has nothing to do with getting paid.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Charge for site visits. New clients are required to pay $300 minimums, unless they want to meet at my shop. Most clients don't want to cheat you if they appreciate you. They appreciate their money and their investments. Exisying clients usually never pay a site fee. I joke with one require a cup of coffee to come look at his new projects.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

> Do you think you have a legal right to collect for wasted time in this type of a situation?


I think you have a moral right...maybe even a legal right but....is it worth the time and effort to pursue it?

Sometimes a well-written and short letter to the person serves to "get things off your chest" and get on with things.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

greg24k said:


> Mark, all that is fine, but you can't get to the proposal stage. You cannot arrange your second meeting with a HO, because you don't hear back from them. It seems all they wanted is for you to come out, answer some questions, and that was it. I'm talking about this circumstances.


Ok, sounds familiar in this day and age. 

For those folks maybe you ask if they would like to arrange a visit (and say how much). But might you lose out on some proposals by doing so? 

One of my family members had been talking about doing an addition for years (still talking, actually). When I thought they were finally serious, I got a GC friend to make the trip and it turned out to be a big waste of time with ideas all over the map. I'm still annoyed when I think about that day. A couple hours, a cup of coffee and no way to remotely pin down the budget. Waste.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

If you expect to get paid for this, you MUST make it clear UP FRONT, BEFORE you spend the time.

If you didn't, kwityerbitchin.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

Robie said:


> I think you have a moral right...maybe even a legal right but....is it worth the time and effort to pursue it?
> 
> Sometimes a well-written and short letter to the person serves to "get things off your chest" and get on with things.





480sparky said:


> If you expect to get paid for this, you MUST make it clear UP FRONT, BEFORE you spend the time.
> 
> If you didn't, kwityerbitchin.


^^^what they said

Live & learn


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Robie said:


> I think you have a moral right...maybe even a legal right but....is it worth the time and effort to pursue it?
> 
> Sometimes a well-written and short letter to the person serves to "get things off your chest" and get on with things.


It's not about the time or effort... I have plenty of time on my hands, this is more about principles.

I think I will see what happens with this case and take it all away, because I feel there has to be a legal base in circumstances like that.

I sent a few texts and few emails... If I don't hear anything I will sent a bill and wait. If I don't hear nothing back, I will send a bill again via reg and certified mail receipt and signature required. If I don't hear anything again, I will file a small claim case for $150.00 and let the judge or mediator decide. 
No matter how it will turnout, win or lose... it will be worth every minute of it and every penny for the court fee.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

greg24k said:


> It's not about the time or effort... I have plenty of time on my hands, this is more about principles.
> 
> I think I will see what happens with this case and take it all away, because I feel there has to be a legal base in circumstances like that.
> 
> ...


Why be an *******?

It's your fault for not charging for a site visit up front.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> If you expect to get paid for this, you MUST make it clear UP FRONT, BEFORE you spend the time.
> 
> If you didn't, kwityerbitchin.


Read it first... It has nothing to do with getting paid...It's a principle and I'm just asking what are the thoughts on the matter... 

In any case I will do what I have to do to find out if there is a legal base and if I reserve the right to get paid or not based on the circumstance.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> Why be an *******?
> 
> It's your fault for not charging for a site visit up front.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts!


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Maybe the prospect didn't deal in good faith. Or maybe they are a family member of a competitor doing "recon". Or maybe they have a family tragedy that just got priority. Could be any number of reasons, principled or not.

Side note....you might need to change your tag line!


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

greg24k said:


> This is a different situation, and has nothing to do with getting paid.


I think you answered your own question.
and I think i did keep it in context.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Thanks for sharing your point of view everyone...


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

There's only two ways to get paid for estimates/bidding... you either charge for the service to do so, or you account for the hours you put into that activity when calculating your salary/compensation on an annual basis... 

If you don't do either and you don't tell a customer upfront that they are being charged, why do you think that you have a legal or moral case to expect to be compensated for activities associated with it after the fact when you didn't inform them upfront that you were charging? This is especially the case when the industry bombards prospects with the message of "free estimates" which to most homeowners (right or wrong) means you are providing them with numbers for their project based on your expertise... contractors on CT argue about the difference between the terms so it's easy to see how HO's come to that conclusion...

Another way to look at it is, do you compensate your subs for providing you with the same?


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

greg24k said:


> Read it first... It has nothing to do with getting paid...It's a principle and I'm just asking what are the thoughts on the matter...
> 
> In any case I will do what I have to do to find out if there is a legal base and if I reserve the right to get paid or not based on the circumstance.


I did read it. Quit being so presumptuous.

And it not about principle.... it's about money. That's what you're after, isn't it? Money? Money you think you're entitled to.

If it was about principle, you'd have have known if you a legal leg to stand on long before you posting this thread.

You're just pissed off that you spent a bunch of time on some tire-kickers you didn't qualify.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

greg24k said:


> It's not about the time or effort... I have plenty of time on my hands, this is more about principles.
> 
> I think I will see what happens with this case and take it all away, because I feel there has to be a legal base in circumstances like that.
> 
> ...


You don't have a case. The law is about legal matters, not principles. An oral agreement might be considered a binding contract if the judge believes you but there was no agreement. No meeting of the minds.

That said, a register letter won't help if they refuse it. You would then need a process service.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Greg you need to relax, maybe a new hobby or something.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

KAP said:


> There's only two ways to get paid for estimates/bidding... you either charge for the service to do so, or you account for the hours you put into that activity when calculating your salary/compensation on an annual basis...
> 
> If you don't do either and you don't tell a customer upfront that they are being charged, why do you think that you have a legal or moral case to expect to be compensated for activities associated with it after the fact when you didn't inform them upfront that you were charging? This is especially the case when the industry bombards prospects with the message of "free estimates" which to most homeowners (right or wrong) means you are providing them with numbers for their project based on your expertise... contractors on CT argue about the difference between the terms so it's easy to see how HO's come to that conclusion...
> 
> Another way to look at it is, do you compensate your subs for providing you with the same?


I understand perfectly well what it is to charge for estimates up-front. I have been charging for estimates in certain situations for over 10 years.
To make a few examples , we need an estimate for insurance company, I tell the HO its a $275.00 fee which will be credited if we do the work.
Deck estimate, etc you make your initial visit,you measure, you do the layout,go over the details and you give them a figure. If they want to keep the layout plans and if they want a written estimate... I will tell them the fee to get all that in writing and provide them with a set of drawings and again if we do the work this fee will be credited.
HO is looking to the addition, you visit the site, you make notes and you tell them the fee for preliminary drawings, etc.
HO has an issue, and they don't know the cause of it, you tell them right off the bat there is a service charge to come out and pin-point the problem, etc.
I also do 3D design work for contractors,HO, not only locally but nationwide and some overseas jobs, same thing, they send me the plan, or they want to make make changes to existing plans and see how it will look in 3D,or if they want to have a Go-To-Meeting session and watch the changes in progress, etc. I tell them the fee up-front and we go from there.
As my sub-contractors go, they never asked for compensation, most been with me almost 30 yrs and I never got one written proposal to sign, in some cases I send them the plans, etc and they call me with a price for me to work with, and if I do the job, they do the job... In any case that is a bit different.

The situation in question is... you get a call from a customer with pretense they want to do a remodeling project, you meet with them, they pick your brain for as much information they can get (and they don't get much out of it, cuz we know better), you get the wheels turning handling everything in the professional manner... but it turns out that they not interested in getting any estimates and they only had you out there to pick your brain and try to find out how to do things.

So my question was based on this type of a circumstance and I was curious to know how others felt about this and... Do we have a right to get paid for our wasted time when HO is not interested in getting a price and only had you out there for information and if there is a possibility that you have a legal right to demand compensation *based on the circumstance*?


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

greg24k said:


> I understand perfectly well what it is to charge for estimates up-front. I have been charging for estimates in certain situations for over 10 years.
> To make a few examples , we need an estimate for insurance company, I tell the HO its a $275.00 fee which will be credited if we do the work.
> Deck estimate, etc you make your initial visit,you measure, you do the layout,go over the details and you give them a figure. If they want to keep the layout plans and if they want a written estimate... I will tell them the fee to get all that in writing and provide them with a set of drawings and again if we do the work this fee will be credited.
> HO is looking to the addition, you visit the site, you make notes and you tell them the fee for preliminary drawings, etc.
> ...


If you agree to meeting or consultation charge (even one that can be credited back), then you have a right to it.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Inner10 said:


> Greg you need to relax, maybe a new hobby or something.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


You know finding a new hobby is not a bad idea, going to the beach or friends boat, taking 3-4 hr lunches or spending a few days a week at the shooting range is getting played out for this 54 yr young guy... who would think that having to much leisure time on my hands would be not such a good thing so I find things like this to make my past time :laughing:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

greg24k said:


> The situation in question is... you get a call from a customer with pretense they want to do a remodeling project, you meet with them, they pick your brain for as much information they can get (and they don't get much out of it, cuz we know better), you get the wheels turning handling everything in the professional manner... but it turns out that they not interested in getting any estimates and they only had you out there to pick your brain and try to find out how to do things.
> 
> So my question was based on this type of a circumstance and I was curious to know how others felt about this and... Do we have a right to get paid for our wasted time when HO is not interested in getting a price and only had you out there for information and if there is a possibility that you have a legal right to demand compensation *based on the circumstance*?


In that case, based on all the scenarios you provided and that you actually charge for, it sounds like this is a small percentage of your overall business so you might be better off just accounting for it in your annual salary/compensation as it relates to your time so you don't feel cheated... you can charge for all your time by accounting for it... you just have to decide if this happens enough in your business to do so...

But unless you are telling them upfront that you expect compensation, how do you have a legal or moral basis to charge them after the fact because you feel that they're tire kickers or picking your brain? Maye they just didn't want to use your company or you said something off-putting to the customer and they are done with you or they are having personal issues. Who knows? But I think we can all look back and remember clients that had us out, we went through the whole machination and then... nothing... but later down the line, they showed up wanting us to do the work... 

Just as a side note... unless you're adding money to the contract to give the HO the credit back for the estimate, you lost 100% of that money (as it relates to your time) anyway...

As it relates to your subs, I'm sure that they don't get every job they quote for you as you don't... yet they wasted their time because they still took the time to quote you... unless their time is somehow different...

Seems you already gave yourself the answer based on your current business practices... charge for your estimates just like you do with the insurance company (I guess it's not clear why you don't already if you do it with the HO's who are dealing with insurance)... if someone is a tire kicker or just picking your brain, they're most likely not going to pay you to do so and so won't make the appointment and you win, but if they do pay, you win... otherwise, just annualize it and remove it from the front temple so you don't have to worry about it anymore... again, you win... :thumbsup:


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

greg24k said:


> So my question was based on this type of a circumstance and I was curious to know how others felt about this and... Do we have a right to get paid for our wasted time when HO is not interested in getting a price and only had you out there for information and if there is a possibility that you have a legal right to demand compensation *based on the circumstance*?


Legally no. They would simply say otherwise, they won't own up to yanking your chain. I understand this sort of thing very well, I was in the sign business and people would actually want to see the sign design before they decided. Now for a good customer I would but I knew I wouldn't get burned. Everyone else had to pay a design fee or I couldn't help them. That weeds out the troublemakers too.

Sometimes they would come into my shop with a design obviously designed by a sign shop, sometimes even with their company name on it, and ask for a price. I turned those down. I'd just let this thing go and remember it the next time around. If the people are like that do you really want to work for them anyway?


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## Stano (Jun 9, 2016)

greg24k said:


> You know finding a new hobby is not a bad idea, going to the beach or friends boat, taking 3-4 hr lunches or spending a few days a week at the shooting range is getting played out for this 54 yr young guy... who would think that having to much leisure time on my hands would be not such a good thing so I find things like this to make my past time :laughing:




So, coming here, asking for an opinion then arguing with the masses must be part of your new time killing skill set. You asked, they and now me say you have no "right" after the fact to collect. It'd be nice if customers like that ponied up and made it right, but those chances are slim to none. 

I once had a guy I was needing to get ahold of really bad for several days, come to find out, he had been in the hospital, his pace maker suddenly quit and they did emergency replacement. So, there may be some other circumstances at play too.......


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

It seems like $150 is a pretty measly figure to get our panties in a bunch.

Repeat to yourself:

"I didn't want to work for those clowns anyway. I didn't want to work for those clowns anyway. I didn't want to work for those clowns anyway. "


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

No you don't deserve to get paid if you thought they didn't deserve to be charged at your first visit.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Californiadecks said:


> No you don't deserve to get paid if you thought they didn't deserve to be charged at your first visit.


Not very often I quote and agree with Mike verbatim... but I do on this occasion.

Quick story, I met with a new client today. I was recommended by an archy friend, the archy is good and expensive. I told HO yesterday $300 minimum on the phone to meet with him or whoever else so make sure to have the people I'm going to work with in place at the time of meeting. First thing was, "well, David didn't tell me you did that with him."

I giggled and make a joking comment of, "well, you're not David and haven't thrown a bunch of good work and client's my way but we can certainly work on that."

HO laughed and said sure, asked if I liked craft beer. I said yep. Well, I met with the guy today, he had a check waiting... Tomorrow I'm meeting with him again to give him a miniature mock up of the job. He now see's me as an asset and if I would have been seen as a "nice guy" wanting to please every person, he would have never had the check... Every client that wants to squeeze is one client missed out on who wants to please.

Now I will move heaven and Earth to give him the best possible product/service on the planet. I make a good living doing my hobby, he gets the best product and service available (or what I hope is the best).


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Californiadecks said:


> No you don't deserve to get paid if you thought they didn't deserve to be charged at your first visit.


I don't know Mike... I truly don't feel that way, and since the guy lives a few houses from my house, I saw someone else there today what looked like a "fly-by-night" Craig's list contractor, let see what happens, so I just sent them today a letter with the following:

Dear so and so

I am writing to inform you that I will be sending you an invoice in the amount of $250.00 dollars.

This amount relates to a kitchen design and computer work performed at your request and 1 hour of consultation services provided at the time of my initial visit to your home on "such date".

Since I haven't heard from you and my attempts to reach you are being ignored, I feel that my time was used to obtain needed information in regard to your project, therefore I would like to be compensated for my invested time.

Keep in mind that failure to pay the requested amount, will force me to escalate this matter. 

If I don't hear from you and payment is not received within 7 days, I will seek further action to recover the amount without further notice.

I look forward hearing from you in regard to this matter, and I'm sure this matter can be resolved without further action.

Sincerely,

Me.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

"I feel that my time was used to obtain needed information in regard to your project, therefore I would like to be compensated for my invested time."

You would like to, that's a request. Then you make a legal demand. I understand it's a low move on his part but I can't see a win here.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

If you're hell-bent on getting paid, why are you here asking us about it?


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Deckhead said:


> Not very often I quote and agree with Mike verbatim... but I do on this occasion.
> 
> Quick story, I met with a new client today. I was recommended by an archy friend, the archy is good and expensive. I told HO yesterday $300 minimum on the phone to meet with him or whoever else so make sure to have the people I'm going to work with in place at the time of meeting. First thing was, "well, David didn't tell me you did that with him."
> 
> ...


I can tell you stories like this all day long, I didn't start my business 10 minutes ago and I have an excellent reputation and pages of references.

This is a different type of a customer who grew up with a believe that any Contractor is worthless and they can treat them anyway they can and take advantage of them when they feel like it. 

So sometimes when you come across a few customers who think they can take you for granted or they don't have any consideration or respect for your time, maybe teaching them a valuable lesson will prevent others from doing this crap to other contractors.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

greg24k said:


> ......
> This is a different type of a customer who grew up with a believe that any Contractor is worthless and they can treat them anyway they can and take advantage of them when they feel like it. ......


And yet you

1. Didn't inform them you were charging for your time and effort at the git-go.
2. Didn't qualify them as that " different type of customer".


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

You need to have your policy clear before you ever meet with them. If your policy is to get paid for your time (a good one to have) that should be said. Asking after the fact is asking for resentment and problems.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

greg24k said:


> I understand fair bidding, you submit your proposal and you get a reply, thank you for your time but we decided to go with someone else. When that happens that is perfectly fine, this is what we do and this is part of out business.


In every practical sense, that's what happened with this customer. You worked up a free estimate, knowing you weren't going to get paid for it--and just because you've been unable to submit it, you suddenly want to be paid for it. :no:

No doubt at all that what they did was ethically shabby, and I'd be PO'd too. But that doesn't give you the right to flipflop and charge for a free service.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

greg24k said:


> I don't know Mike... I truly don't feel that way, and since the guy lives a few houses from my house, I saw someone else there today what looked like a "fly-by-night" Craig's list contractor, let see what happens, so I just sent them today a letter with the following:
> 
> Dear so and so
> 
> ...


Is it really to your advantage to send that? Why just wait until they begin the work and call inspection services on them.


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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

greg24k said:


> I can tell you stories like this all day long, I didn't start my business 10 minutes ago and I have an excellent reputation and pages of references.
> 
> This is a different type of a customer who grew up with a believe that any Contractor is worthless and they can treat them anyway they can and take advantage of them when they feel like it.
> 
> So sometimes when you come across a few customers who think they can take you for granted or they don't have any consideration or respect for your time, maybe teaching them a valuable lesson will prevent others from doing this crap to other contractors.


I get what your saying. I have a lot of respect for the way you run your business too, seems lime you grabbed the bull by the horns early to get to where you're at. The way I look at it is this, I never signed up to "teach people lessons" and if thats what you are saying you want to do than go for it. Thats just not my bag.

If you're saying you want to be unethical (by charging for a service that wasnt understandably stated was going to be charged for) because they're unethical I can't agree. So to get paid, no its not cool if you didn't ever say it. To teach a lesson? I wouldn't ever try to be that guy but, hey, thats up to you.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

480sparky said:


> If you're hell-bent on getting paid, why are you here asking us about it?


I think you getting more bent out of shape than I am, but that sounds more of a personal issue with you...:laughing: Not to mention I wasn't asking you or anyone in here if I have a legal case or not, I have a lawyer for that.

All I asked is what you guys think in a situation like that, do you feel that your time is worth something and should you be compensated "based on a situation like this" so a simple Yes or No would do the trick. 

But it got a little more interesting and challenging, so let's see what happens and take this further since I have all the time on my hands :laughing:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

greg24k, I don't think anyone is saying you can't do this, anyone can bring a suit... you're unlikely to prevail simply because you didn't set conditions by which anything would be enforceable or deemed as such... 

They literally can tell the judge they didn't get a good vibe from you while at the house, and not only decided to go with someone else but to cut off communication with you to make it clear... they have no obligation to do anything at this point... this is just one of a host of things they could come up with including they were meeting with other contractors and weren't ready to meet with you and then they got your letter...

This is compounded by the fact that you've said you charge upfront for HO's to do the same thing and it was your choice not to do so in this situation for whatever reason... IOW, your standard business practice wasn't applied and a judge could look at that and ask why you didn't follow your standard business practice? 

I don't know exactly what principal you're trying to convey here... you've already said that if they had let you back you wouldn't be charging them for the estimate (and even if you did, you'd end up crediting it back thereby losing 100% of the money as it relates to your time anyway)...

We all have had clients like this and we all value our time... in many cases it's a blessing in disguise that we didn't get it as it probably wasn't a fit... 

Let's say you prevail on this and somehow are able to convince a judge that you are in the right... does this mean now that you'll be going after every prospect that "wastes your time" to validate your principal by chasing money through courts? Man, there's much better ways to spend your time...

Yeah, we're all in it to make money... but are you REALLY serving anyone's interests in this? You'll waste MORE time negating any financial gain you'd hope to realize (not to mention taking a WORK DAY to show up in court, which costs MUCH MORE, never mind the work you will do in advance preparing your argument)... in fact, even IF you win, highly unlikely gamble, you'll end up losing money... and it'll be renting space in your head all the while...

So if you go back and read this thread I think what many are saying is yeah, we think our time is valuable, which is why many charge and are upfront with the customer, and you've said you do the same, but as you go on with this, it's hard to see how you really value your time when you're getting ready to piss it away in droves and actually LOSE money in the process even IF you prevail...

Which begs the question from a business perspective... what are you thinking?

If you really value your time, charge upfront on ALL your HO dealings or work it into pricing structure so your time is accounted for so you don't LOSE money chasing yourself... this way, you are ALWAYS compensated no matter how batty or rude a prospect is...


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Because you allowed it. And you never mentioned charging them. Did they have a full understanding that this was not a free estimate?

I think it is morally reprehensible for them to ignore you at that point. But the only oral contract you have with them is you were going to get them an estimate which can be left as a phone message.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

kixnbux said:


> I'm curious to hear how it goes. Me personally I'd have to be extremely pissed to sweat $250 to that extreme. I can make more during the wasted court time with less stress lol


I'm not sweating over it... I'm having fun with it and I want to see if I can prove this point point to myself.


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## kixnbux (Feb 12, 2015)

greg24k said:


> I'm not sweating over it... I'm having fun with it and I want to see if I can prove this point point to myself.




I totally get that


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Before we reach any conclusions, let's wait and let the letter hit it's destination and see what happens.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

greg24k said:


> Before we reach any conclusions, let's wait and let the letter hit it's destination and see what happens.


Can't wait for the update... :thumbsup:

Hey, let's hope they fold and you get the $250 or they invite you back and you end up getting the job... they don't have anything in hand to justify the charge, and are going to probably ask why you can mail them the letter but not the thing you are using as justification to send them the letter, but hey... they might just be intimidated... or maybe they'll invite you back to listen to it and then after wasting more of your time decide not to go with you...

One thing you may not have considered is you are only looking at the time principal from your perspective... they may not have even given you the opportunity to meet in the first place if you were upfront with them about the charges and might be pissed you wasted THEIR time...

Really hope something works out for you in this scenario... :thumbsup:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Leo G said:


> Because you allowed it. And you never mentioned charging them. Did they have a full understanding that this was not a free estimate?
> 
> I think it is morally reprehensible for them to ignore you at that point. But the only oral contract you have with them is you were going to get them an estimate which can be left as a phone message.


Leo, I didn't allow anything, this is not about charging them for an estimate that I forgot to mention ahead of time and now trying to collect. You guys need to take your blinders off, because you all missing the whole picture.

For 10th time This is about them asking me to design their kitchen and provide them with an estimate. I spent time designing their kitchen and I never got to the estimate part because a few more things need to be verified in the field before I can do that and for that I needed a preliminary design... 
They knew all that, they know about the need for 2nd visit, *they know they don't have to pay for estimate and I don't expect them too*, I went over with them about all that. They were impressed how thorough the process was (because they got screwed on bathroom remodeling in the old house). Not to mention a few hours after I left their house they asked me if I can show them a few layouts one with Ref on one side and the other with Ref on the other side and I said no problem. 
So I didn't do anything wrong to spook them, or grabbed his wife's a$$, or whatever like some might suggest, everything was cool like any other appointment.

I'm asking for this money simply because they told me to work on their project and now they ignoring my calls. That's the only reason why I'm demanding to get paid is for wasting my time. Got nothing to do with anything verbal or any other contract, or anything else other than they wasted my time so let leave this as "wasted contractor time case ONLY"

At this point I don't know if "wasting time" can be a legal issue based on the circumstance but I feel very strongly about it that it should be (again based on the circumstance), or maybe I will start a new Trend in the legal system where contractors can recover theirs money in the future if someone initiates work and walk out on it, who knows you might all benefit from and you can all thank me later :laughing:

In the mean time I'll worry about what I can and cannot do and what and whatnot I can recover from HO who waste my time when I'm trying to earn a living.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

KAP said:


> Can't wait for the update... :thumbsup:
> 
> Hey, let's hope they fold and you get the $250 or they invite you back and you end up getting the job... they don't have anything in hand to justify the charge, and are going to probably ask why you can mail them the letter but not the thing you are using as justification to send them the letter, but hey... they might just be intimidated... or maybe they'll invite you back to listen to it and then after wasting more of your time decide not to go with you...
> 
> ...


Bro, everything was laid out before them, the whole process. I just mentioned that in a reply to Leo's post. They knew everything from A to Z. I just looked at my CA software at the time log it took me 2 1/2 hours overall to complete a preliminary design, not to mention print out elevation views from all angles etc. plus the phone calls etc to get the wheels rolling and that is the only thing I'm looking to recover. 

With that said, if they contact me after I tried to reach them 3 times and said hey we changed our mind or something came up it would be fine with me and I would wish them well... not the first time it happened.

Now after the letter, if they call with threats the next day I will file a small claim suit.
If they call and say we sorry for not getting back to you and if I settle for less I would say make me an offer and if they say $5 I would be ok with it.
Or I might just get the satisfaction from knowing they will get this letter tomorrow or maybe even today and that will f'k up their entire weekend and i will end it at that... 

I know for sure this was an interesting Post for what it's worth, it's been a little boring in here lately :laughing:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

kixnbux said:


> I totally get that


I do too.


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## gbruzze1 (Dec 17, 2008)

I hope this winds up on judge Judy 


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## TxElectrician (May 21, 2008)

You asked for a simple answer. I don't think you should be paid.


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## Kowboy (May 7, 2009)

TxElectrician said:


> You asked for a simple answer. I don't think you should be paid.


I've got to agree. You gave it away and now you want to charge for it.

I'm meeting with some potentials on Monday. I've made it clear that they will be paying me. In fact, the time I spent speaking with them on the phone goes toward my three-hour minimum charge.

As the old bumper sticker said, "Ass, grass, or gas, no one rides for free."


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

Let me ask you this if they went forward with the project were you going to charge them for that time?

I get you would have built it into project cost but you wouldn't do a specific line item for consult would you?


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

Are you asking him now or before he got upset? The answer is probably different. 


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

You will not win a dime and it will not get past the small claims court administrator much less get to the judge. I have a Superior Court Judge as a customer and I asked about this a few years ago. The client is under no obligation to respond and or pay, no contract of any type or kind was executed. Happens all of the time with car dealers/ real estate sales etc.

If you wanted to be paid you should have given them a contract at the start.


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

Seems like a giant waste of time to me. 

You should send me the $250 for my time reading this 


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## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

aaron_a said:


> Seems like a giant waste of time to me.
> 
> You should send me the $250 for my time reading this
> 
> ...




Maybe you should start a class-action suit!


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I'd laugh if these people are as stubborn as you and have tons of money to waste and countersue for over the small claims limit which if NJ is anything like here, you'd have to be represented by an attorney.

"We decided against communicating with Greg because his truck leaked oil in our brand new driveway. While waiting for estimates on what it will cost for us to have our driveway replaced, we received Mr. Greg's unjust demand for payment. Accompanying our statement, you'll find paperwork for how much it will cost to replace our driveway, in the amount of $24,000.00. we appreciate Mr. Gregs prompt response to this matter and hope resolve this dispute amicably."

Anyways, they won't. If they're smart they'll do what I said. In my first year of business I had a guy do landscaping work on my home. He started one day by digging s trench that would eventually flood my basement multiple times. I told him not to come back. He sent me multiple invoices, I contacted the department of consumer protection and never heard another thing from him.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

gbruzze1 said:


> I hope this winds up on judge Judy
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


More likely it will be on People's Court. She comes from a contractor family, I will definately get paid. :thumbsup:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I'd laugh if these people are as stubborn as you and have tons of money to waste and countersue for over the small claims limit which if NJ is anything like here, you'd have to be represented by an attorney.
> 
> "We decided against communicating with Greg because his truck leaked oil in our brand new driveway. While waiting for estimates on what it will cost for us to have our driveway replaced, we received Mr. Greg's unjust demand for payment. Accompanying our statement, you'll find paperwork for how much it will cost to replace our driveway, in the amount of $24,000.00. we appreciate Mr. Gregs prompt response to this matter and hope resolve this dispute amicably."
> 
> Anyways, they won't. If they're smart they'll do what I said. In my first year of business I had a guy do landscaping work on my home. He started one day by digging s trench that would eventually flood my basement multiple times. I told him not to come back. He sent me multiple invoices, I contacted the department of consumer protection and never heard another thing from him.


Nice one Bam, you should start writing fairy tales for a living,you definitely have a talent :thumbsup:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

rrk said:


> You will not win a dime and it will not get past the small claims court administrator much less get to the judge. I have a Superior Court Judge as a customer and I asked about this a few years ago. The client is under no obligation to respond and or pay, no contract of any type or kind was executed. Happens all of the time with car dealers/ real estate sales etc.
> 
> If you wanted to be paid you should have given them a contract at the start.


Your Judge is right, in the contract case no one is obligated to anything if there is no contract... Did you have to ask the Judge that...? It's self explanatory.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

greg24k said:


> Nice one Bam, you should start writing fairy tales for a living,you definitely have a talent :thumbsup:


You thinking this isn't a waste of time and money is a fairy tale.

If onoy I could collect $250 for every appointment I go on and don't get, I wouldn't even need to do anything else. I'd make 4-6k a week!


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Greg come to your senses.

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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

It's kind of like going through a drive though and ordering a meal, but then driving off. The difference here is that there are clear prices written on the menue.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

I've read the whole thread. Where do I send the bill?


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

RangoWA said:


> I've read the whole thread. Where do I send the bill?


You'll need to prorate that to each participant.


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## RangoWA (Jun 25, 2014)

META said:


> You'll need to prorate that to each participant.


Per post, correct?


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

greg24k said:


> Your Judge is right, in the contract case no one is obligated to anything if there is no contract... Did you have to ask the Judge that...? It's self explanatory.


It is also self explanatory to everyone else but you that they do not owe you anything. 

Where is our check for wasting our time :whistling


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

META said:


> It's kind of like going through a drive though and ordering a meal, but then driving off. The difference here is that there are clear prices written on the menue.


I don't know about that but let use your theory. I have a dunkin donut shop here where you pull up and place your order and you pull up to a window they make your order up and bring it to the window and they collect money before they hand you the order.

No you pull up and you wait and tell the girl could you add this also please, she says ok and as she bring in you the order you take off.

Some will probably say "fk a$$hole" and do whatever with that order. But this manager said you know what... screw that guy and lets hypothetically speaking they got his license plate on the camera or whatever and they call the cops, now the cops will obtain your information and provide you with it and you can take legal action in this case it would be small claims court. 
They will say you pulled up ordered $20 in food, ordered a few additional items and when the order was ready, you took off without paying. Here is the order receipt, I would also like to get compensated for being here because this was a negligent action on his part and i like to be compensated also. I'm sure this guy will say " where does it say that I cannot change my mind" and what you think the judge will say? " You can change your mind, but you should have told them that when you pulled up to that window so they stop preparing your order" " Now they are out all this money and now they had to come here and collect"
In whose favor do you think the ruling will be? That is what called legal theory and that is how small claims court's rules based on who is really at fault here and who should be made whole.

Now if the manager comes to claims court and said this guy ordered $20 dollars worth the food and I want to collect $1000 for that and for being here and what ever else... I doubt you will get more than what you out...The court's job is to make you whole. 

My case is the same thing... 

Judge, we're here for the following reason. The defendant's contact me to design their kitchen. We met and went over the entire process and per our mutual agreement, In a good faith I was going to do the layout of their kitchen free of charge and provide them with a free estimate, because I was grateful for the opportunity the defendants gave me to bid on their job and hopefully winning the bid so I can make a profit.

After a few email correspondences as you can see, they requested some additional work I didn't have a problem with that and did everything as they requested. 
After design was completed I tried to meet with them again for a second visit to go over the design to make sure everything to their satisfaction, and after making numerous attempts trying to reach them, I never heard anything from them again after making a few attempts to contact them and that is the reason why we're here today.

Judge, I strongly believe, it was their duty to contact me or at least let me know they changed their mind or whatever and they had plenty of time to do that, we wouldn't be here today. But because of their failure to do that, I did all that work without having the opportunity to present my design or offer.

All I'm asking Judge is a small, reasonable and fair compensation for the work I did in the amount of $250.00. My evidence show I have all the proof of work performed, drawings, layouts from a few different distributors, email correspondences where the defendant is asking to do the design and follow up request to make additional changes, and that only indicates they are still interested to see the design.

That's all I have Judge... Thank you!

Thats pretty much what I got and everything else would be up to him it will be Yes or it will be NO if it gets that far.

Right now I only sent a letter requesting compensation and it only took me 2 min to type that up and put in my mail.

If this goes further I will worry about that then...So I don't know why everyone is getting so uptight about this, or why everyone's so worried me not getting anything, or me wasting my time on this, or anything else that might bother some... Try to relax a little.

I already got the answer I asked, and that is most don't think I deserve to be compensated, some like to see what the outcome will be and I'm sure there is a few who feel I might have something there, they just don't want to say it since so many elites here think otherwise. 
Other than that and whatever happens, that's my problem and its my time.

Have a great weekend everyone :thumbsup:


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## META (Apr 9, 2015)

The difference is you offered your services for free, and you suffered minimal to no material damages.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be upset and feel wronged here, but shame on me for not doing my contractual due diligence.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

real estate agents, car salesmen, appliance salesmen, actually any salesmen would be sending bills out right and left if you could bill for wasted time without a contract.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

META said:


> The difference is you offered your services for free, and you suffered minimal to no material damages.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'd be upset and feel wronged here, but shame on me for not doing my contractual due diligence.


Not upset at all. Spoke to 2 attorneys (one specialized in construction litigations) not including my attorney, who is a part time Judge at one of the municipalities... spoke to a retired small claims court judge (but he is from NY but that shouldn't matter) and they all said same thing "based on the circumstance, you have the right to request compensation for your time and the odds in my favor to collect".

So I will let the letter playout first and I worry about everything else later.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I've been living on my street for decades and I've always tried to avoid confrontation even if it means times I don't need to be right. I also don't work for nieghbors unless it's a favor. they are in the same category of 'not working for family'.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

rrk said:


> real estate agents, car salesmen, appliance salesmen, actually any salesmen would be sending bills out right and left if you could bill for wasted time without a contract.


I don't know what to tell you, I'm not an appliance dealer, real estate agent or anyone else.

I go by the way I feel and my opinion is based on my circumstance and not a car dealer or appliance salesman and I strongly believe I should be compensated for my time based on the circumstances.

Maybe a car dealer or appliance salesman has the the same right, I don't know, or maybe they never tried, I don't know, or maybe they never tried and if they did, who knows maybe they could get something also based on the circumstance.

But who are we to decide or judge what we can or cannot collect or do we have rights or we don't...That's why we have a legal system to do that... and in any case the Judge will decide not you or me or Superior Court Judge that you know... To Each it's Own... So I'm not worried about any outcome and I'm OK with either decision.:thumbsup:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

greg24k said:


> My case is the same thing...
> 
> Judge, we're here for the following reason. The defendant's contact me to design their kitchen. We met and went over the entire process and per our mutual agreement, In a good faith I was going to do the layout of their kitchen free of charge and provide them with a free estimate, because I was grateful for the opportunity the defendants gave me to bid on their job and hopefully winning the bid so I can make a profit.


Lol. I thought you were drinking last night and maybe angry.

Judge : Uhh, so you just openly admitted you were doing the work for free because you were grateful they gave you the opportunity to meet with them? Now you're here suing because they didn't want to meet with you? Case dismissed for the plaintiff, countersuit granted for defendant. Have a good day and don't waste time in my court room again.

Good luck with this one. I'll have to stay tuned to hear how it turns out although no matter what I know you'll say they paid up or you won.


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## aaron_a (Dec 18, 2013)

Dumbest thread 


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Lol. I thought you were drinking last night and maybe angry.
> 
> Judge : Uhh, so you just openly admitted you were doing the work for free because you were grateful they gave you the opportunity to meet with them? Now you're here suing because they didn't want to meet with you? Case dismissed for the plaintiff, countersuit granted for defendant. Have a good day and don't waste time in my court room again.
> 
> Good luck with this one. I'll have to stay tuned to hear how it turns out although no matter what I know you'll say they paid up or you won.


You right, probably is a waste of time...I don't know what I was thinking. 
I will take your and everyone else's advice and drop the the issue.

Thank you everyone for your input on the matter! :thumbsup:


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

greg24k said:


> You right, probably is a waste of time...I don't know what I was thinking.
> I will take your and everyone else's advice and drop the the issue.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your input on the matter! :thumbsup:


All I'm saying is you've been very successful. Why let this bother you? You aren't dying for work. We all know people are inconsiderate and selfish. $250 is a drop in the bucket to you.

Take your court filing fees and spend it on powerball tickets.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

...


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## kixnbux (Feb 12, 2015)

META said:


> You'll need to prorate that to each participant.




I think it's a class action at this point


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