# Levels of Workmanship?



## cutnroller (Jan 20, 2006)

Years ago one of the first guys I ever worked for had a system in place where he would calculate his price based on one of his 3 levels of "quality" that he could provide. He simply called it level 1, 2 or 3 and when we (the grunts) first went in to do a job he would let us know which level he expected. Basically 2 was the standard, 1 was basically a splash and dash and 3 was for superior finish work in higher end homes/businesses. Seemed like a great system to me at the time as it made it clear to us painters as far as time and materials etc. 

I have mentioned this method to other contractors I've worked for since then and it usually gets a fairly cold response. I'm not sure if the response is due to it just being a plain bad idea, or if it was simply them not wanting to take advice or field ideas from a worker. Most guys that I have worked for seem to do a little of each "type" or "level" or "quality" of work based on circumstance and their own agendas, so I always wondered why more people didn't use this method of pricing.

Personally, I always tried to do the best possible work and would like to think that i will always provide top quality to everyone, but perhaps I'm being too optimistic and reality will come and bite me on the butt.

Now that I'm getting ready to run my own show, this issue has resurfaced in my thoughts and again I am pondering the pros and cons of it. Do any of you use a similar system or have experience with it, and could you offer any advice one way or the other?


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Instead of charging more per hour, per different jobs,
you allow more hours in your labour budget for jobs with more prep, 
custom work etc.


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## jmgallagher (Jan 28, 2005)

The costs of doing business is the same no matter if you use level 1,2 or 3.

Do yourself a favor and figure out your "true costs" of doing business. Dont follow that guys system it's bogus!

The costs are different between Re-Paint or New Construction. Figure out what it costs you to do both.

Dont lower your standards according to YOUR estimate. You give the estimate. YOU know what it costs to do a quality job. Dont sacrifice your quality because YOU gave a low estimate just to get the job. That is piss poor business pratice. And that is what gives this industry a bad name.

Wheather it is an 200,000 dollar home or a 1,000,000 dollar home. With the same scope of work...The cost for you to apply the paint is the same.

YOU are the "professional" 

Always do quality work.

Thanks,

Joe


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## donb1959 (Dec 9, 2004)

I only have one level of service that's excellence. I always bid my jobs to be able to give a superior job. I think to start offering 3 levels of service is to put your reputation out there as a hack. And I'm not sure even how a contractor could qualify a customer as a 1-2-3 client, it's confusing enough running your own business witout confounding the matter.

I know that there are those that can afford a top quality job, and those that can't, but my reputation rides the line every time I do a job, so I only do high quality work.


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

At first, I took cut's post to refer more to quality of materials as opposed to quality of workmanship but then after re-reading it, I really don't think the term "splash and dash" is the best philosophy - regardless of the business you're in. I'm not a painter by trade but I wouldn't recommend lowering your standards of workmanship.

In my business there are changes to less expensive materials and options that will help sell a job to a customer's budget i.e. nailing deck boards instead of screws (I do not recommend this but it will save them money), using lattice for skirting, using pressure treated decking, less costly railing styles, etc.

...just my humble opinion.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

I agree with (and do) what cutnroller is suggesting. But no customer will ever know if they got the 1, 2, or 3 version of my service. I don't give them an option, it is my job as the estimator/salesman to tailor that job/price to the client.

It all boils down to fitting the job to the customer's wants and needs. If I go into a multi-mil $ home, I spec out the appropriate job regarding materials, and labor, and certain steps for production. They would be getting the #3 treatment. I also go into a 150k home, and the homeowner would like to get it painted to sell. I spec out the job according to those needs. This might be a #1 job. Whether its 1, 2, or 3, I get my price and make a profit. It is all layed out in the customers contract (scope of work), and mirrored in the work order. The production team knows what to do for each job according to the scope or work order.


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## jmgallagher (Jan 28, 2005)

DecksEtc said:


> .
> 
> In my business there are changes to less expensive materials and options that will help sell a job to a customer's budget i.e. nailing deck boards instead of screws (I do not recommend this but it will save them money), using lattice for skirting, using pressure treated decking, less costly railing styles, etc.
> 
> ...just my humble opinion.



Excellent thought...

We as painters can also offer lower materials to fit the budget. (of course we try to sell premium... materials are cheap.. labor is expensive) But our workmanship and the quality should stay the same. That goes across the board to ALL trades!!!

Thanks,

Joe


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

donb1959 said:


> I only have one level of service that's excellence. I always bid my jobs to be able to give a superior job. I think to start offering 3 levels of service is to put your reputation out there as a hack. And I'm not sure even how a contractor could qualify a customer as a 1-2-3 client, it's confusing enough running your own business witout confounding the matter.
> 
> I know that there are those that can afford a top quality job, and those that can't, but my reputation rides the line every time I do a job, so I only do high quality work.


Very well said. To me it's all top notch quality or nothing at all. There are more reasons than just reputation. I don't want to return to any job once it's done, unless we're adding on more work, period. Another is my pride alone. I will NEVER do something that would allow another painter to look at in the future and say anything negative about it, or find anything wrong. The AA (Adam Austin) in AA Quality Painting means my name is on everything we do, and everything we do is to my standards which meet and often exceed accepted industry standards and mfg's recommendations.


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## ron schenker (Dec 11, 2005)

I just did a 2 bedroom rental apt. reno in a 9 plex. The investor bought it cheap mainly because it was a dump, but it earns just shy of $50,000/yr in rent. One unit was empty and he wanted me to do a low budget job to get it rented. It was a pig sty, repaired and painted every wall, redid the bathroom and kitchen, replaced all flooring, etc. When it was done it looked 99% better and rented immediately for $250.00/mth. more than previously! Had I quoted him a higher price for top quality, I would not have gotten the job (plus 8 more units eventually). I am still making good money, not worried about a little slip of my brush cutting in, the landlord is happy, and so is the tenant. My point is...you don't always have to do an immaculate job.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Not having varing levels of workmanship to coordinate with the type of customer and building is like shooting yourself in the foot. You'll price yourself out of an aweful lot of work. A rental property firm, for instance, neither needs or wants top quality work.


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## jmgallagher (Jan 28, 2005)

There is no such thing as a perfect paint job. 

I hope I dont offend you Pro but... what is puzzling to me is why painters drop down to the mantality of "splash and dash" just because someone is selling there home??? Even if the sellers wants a "cheap" job. That dont make any sense. 

We as "Professional" Painters should have our own systems in place to accommidate different projects without sacrifising Quality or Workmanship. And still making a profit. There are MANY faster, easier ways of doing things without skipping steps and Hacking.

I guess some of us have different "Standards" than others.

Thanks,

Joe


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## cutnroller (Jan 20, 2006)

To add a little more info.....

This particular contractor not only used this system internally, but would break it down for potential customers. It was all there plain as day for them to see. The customers knew which level of service they were getting, and all that came with that. For instance I think the warantee would be significantly reduced or wiped out depending on the circumstance. 

We did (mostly) very high end restoration/repainting of turn of the century heritage homes and were highly regarded for our work, but also did a fair amount of rentals, maintenance work and small jobs in the winter months to keep busy. I appreciate the fact that he tried to keep us busy and working, and if he offered different levels of service in order to achieve that then so be it.

This post was not so much to ask whether you all do or don't do this internally, because I know we all do it _to a point_, but how much you work this into your sales pitch if at all, and how much you may let the customers in on this system.

I want to make clear that I *am neither endorsing or dismissing this practice*, and that he is the only one I have seen do this. I get the impression that some of the posts are written from the standpoint that _I_ am doing this or endorsing this and that is not the case. I ALWAYS do quality work. I would never encourage anyone to do poor quality work. 

I believe a good painter (or any tradesperson) is a good painter plain and simple, and it would be very difficult for a good painter to do poor quality work. (at least this is the case with me personally) So the actual application of paint to surface really boils down to the person doing it.

I know how to take a 100 year old wood frame with 15 coats of paint on it and make it look brand new, but not everyone is willing to pay for that level of craftsmanship. Should I pass up the job unless they are willing to pay top dollar for a complete restoration? Should I chew out one of my workers when it takes him 8 hours to do a door frame? Also, when times are tough, and my top painter has a couple kids to feed and work is scarce, is he going to understand when I tell him I passed up the job because they didn't want to pay top dollar? Hell if it meant keeping a good worker, I would take a little hit on the profit just to keep bread on his table.

This 1,2,3 level system seemed to be more there for the customers and making them feel good about what they were getting, and I can tell you that myself and most of the guys working with me would always give 100%. It seemed like the rich customer in the multi-million dollar home was very happy about paying top dollar and the resulting finish, just the same as the slumlord was very happy to pay next to nothing for a very basic paint job with the not so perfect finish. I just thought this 1,2,3 method was implemented by him to deal with these very different customers.


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## phinsher (Oct 27, 2005)

I tend to agree most with ProWallGuy. I agree, don't discuss the A,B or C quality with the customer. Nobody wants to think they are getting C quality work.

That being said no one in their right mind should be treating an old scratched up masonite door the same way they would treat a brand new $4,000 Walnut door. Just isn't realistic.

To me this discussion begs the question "What is quality?" To me it breaks down into several areas 

1) Was the procees performed correctly? This is one aspect of quality, did you prime raw wood? etc

2) Asthetic Quality How much effort is put into making any surface look its very best?

Here's an example. Lets say you have a piece of simple 1 by 4 finger jointed pine. 

If its clean you could prime then apply 2 coats of paint, lets say a total of 30 minutes with clean-up included. 

Or you break out the bondo, skim all the finger jointed areas, Break out the palm sander sanding it perfectly smooth, tack it off. Then prime then break out the lacquer putty and skim any defects found by side lighting the surface. Then sand all the putty, then tack it again, then reprime over the last putty, actually just reprime the whole board to deal with any exposed raw wood during the last sanding. Then lightly sand again, then tack, then apply a coat of the finest paint available, then sand lightly, check again for any defects that made it through your previous attempts, if all is well then apply a second coat of paint and your done, well unless you consider the fact that a third coat of paint provides a better lookin finish. etc Total time = your guess is as good as mine.

Fact is both were performed correctly, but there is an obvious difference.

I'd say for anyone doing exactly the same work on everything that you've probably found a happy medium that tends to satisfy most people, however there is another world of fine finishes out there that you just couldn't justify on a 200/month rental unit.


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

I must back pedal a little and agree with phinisher because he has more clearly stated what I was thinking than I could. Yes, the level of detail is different but the proper application is never compromised....and we charge accordingly.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I have a friend who retired quite comfortably doing rental rehab paint. He sprayed everything white, didn't give a crap about latex over oil, just shot everything white. Retired in 10 yrs. There IS money in crap jobs.


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Cut, why would you open the door to the problems that could pop up from leading your employee's to believing that you sometimes except lower standards of workmanship?

If it's rental, I just say _"Hey fellas, this is rental but keep it nice and clean." _and leave it at that.

Not only that, but training for a new guy could really suffer if you except sub standard.

Bob


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## GEB7678 (Dec 17, 2005)

I always keep in mind the level of quality I will be performing, best, bester, and bestest, but I never let the customer know. its just something I keep in the back of my mind. I also have to know what type of customer Im dealing with. You've got hawkeyes who take a magnifying glass to the wall or the type that are just happy its another color or not so dirty anymore. I also have to deal with their budget, If they can afford the time it takes for perfection then they get it.


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## jmgallagher (Jan 28, 2005)

This is a general post... not speaking to anyone paticular....

I agree with AA and phinisher as well as ALL posts to a certian extent each... 

I will add a few more things...

If you scope out a project to "skip" steps that shouldnt be skipped...

Example: Not priming, putting latex over oil without proper prep, Not prepping at all, etc etc..... No matter what type of place it is or how much YOU priced it out for... I think that is bogus!

Im not saying treat "every" project the same (thats common sense)... and there is no such thing as a perfect paint job... they are all different and have different scopes of work... But like I said above you shoulnt SKIP steps...there is only one way to apply paint... the right way! 

Scope accordingly (the right steps) and price accordinly.

My point is that if you are going to "skip steps" and "Hack" your way through business just to max out your profits. I think that is bogus and you shouldnt be in business.

What if someone Hacked your house? It would be a different story then,Right?

I treat everything as I want to be treated. Quality!

I dont do rental units "I'd rather do nothing" than be seen doing those.

I guess it all boils down to Standards, Professionalism, Integrity, and Ethics... 

Its hard to come by a True Quality Professional Painter today!!! 

It seems that most on this forum are Professional... I guess the whole "splash and dash" hit a nerve. It would be imposible to have every "professional" painter agree on the same standards. But I dont think "splash and dash" should be one of them... no matter what!!

It's disapointing to think that people actually "ASK" for low quality!

I think its great to toss ideas and opinions around and keep it clean.

Thanks,

Joe


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

I have some customers that have investment (rental) properties. There is no way they want to paint the house with the same quality and materials they would use on a more valuable home. Every 3-4 years we go in and replace the carpet and paint the homes.
I would not stoop to latex over oil with no prep but I do have different standards regarding quality. After all Mercedes could be the best car on the market but it wouldn't be the right car for a McDonalds employee?

In a perfect world we could all strive for perfection....But this ain't a perfect world:shifty:


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## PlainPainter (Dec 29, 2004)

What's funny is when I redo apartments in really old homes with that old dingy windows with ten layers of paint. I find that the easiest way to do a 'cheap' apartment type job is to use oil trim paint. I mostly use latex trim paint - and do lots of prep. But with oil paint in cheap rental property - you don't have to sand, clean or dust the woodwork - oil paint will adhere great kill dark stains stick to exposed wood and generally give the trim a pretty decent face-lift. Funny - using oil trim for cheap rental type paintjobs - but it works. Cheap ceiling paint, no sanding, no dusting, oil trim paint, super-spec eggshell for walls - don't even bother sanding walls or washing all that crap that develops in tenement housing. And in the end - it actually looks pretty decent.

-plainpainter

The above refers to when I am in 'ghetto' mode, when work is far and few in between in these cold wintery months. I will even turn the heat down to 50 degrees, and then cut in the superspec wall paint and then roll - it goes on so thick, that it covers amazingly in one coat. And since it's so cold - it takes hours to dry and there is absolutely no flashing between the cuts and rolling.


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## cutnroller (Jan 20, 2006)

Plainpainter, I also live in a place where, during the "winter months", exterior painting gigs virtually disappear. As a result, companies are forced to lay off a good portion of the workforce and concentrate on interior gigs. These conditions create an extremely competitive environment where some are forced to take jobs they otherwise might pass up. This is just a fact of life. 

I understand that many of the forum members are located in areas where these conditions don't exist to such an extreme, and they are not forced to play this game _to such extremes_. But for those of us that exist in a not so perfect world there is a need to perhaps be more "flexible" or "creative" in their approaches to pricing and just surviving.

I also understand that some members enjoy the benefit of being in the business for a long time, and can rely on their reputations to provide steady, quality gigs all year round. But some of us are just starting out or are very new and we don't get that same benefit. I know that if we held out only for the "perfect" gig we just wouldn't survive.

I hope the veteran contractors and those that operate in warmer areas understand this and keep it in mind when discussing this issue. The thought of doing less than perfect work is not an easy pill to swallow, but sometimes you just have to make the best of a situation no?


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## donb1959 (Dec 9, 2004)

Yes times can be very difficult in the winter months, maybe I need to clarify my stand. I too am a young start up, and I have gone out to give a bid to try to just keep my guys busy, and pay the bills. But even at this it seems my price is too high, and I gave them a deal.

Around here in the winter things become VERY competetive, but for instance, last week a country club calls and wants their golf clubhouse painted, as well as their resteraunt. I am intending on giveing a very good price as the phone has slowed.

The clubhouse had 24' pitched ceilings, walls were very hard to get to dues to windows against wood beams. About 5k sq ft of wall space. Two coats on all the walls, and alot of cosmetic repair to sheetrock. Ten windows and 8 doors, baseboard etc for trim.

The resteraunt was very upscale, all ceilings had to be paint, which meant covering up every sq inch of floor space, wall space was 3K sq ft. Trim included 7 doors, 9 windows,baseboard etc..

I really took alot of time with this quote, figured my matierials and manhours, Then took 10% off that figure, the 10% being my profit on the job. I take the quote back in, and the owner actually chuckled. I asked what was the matter, and he showed me 2 other quotes that were less than half of what I bid.

Now Ive been in the game long enough to know what my production rates are, and what I have to have just to stay in business, at the price those two companys gave I would have been loseing money after the 3rd day of a 6 day job. This has happened to me on a couple occasions this winter.

The fact is that I cant compete with companys that dont have ins, dont advertise, and probably dont pay all there taxes, it cant be done. So what I do is bust my hump in the spring and summer, most weeks working 70 plus hours and save for the lean times.

There are guys out there willing to work for free, and I just cant compete with them, I give fair prices year round, but in the winter I do tend to drop my going rates, and when its really slow I drop them even further, but when my bottom of the barrel rate is a 3rd to 1/2 higher than the next guy its out of my hands, I have to eat :biggrin:


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## Paul Burns (Jan 17, 2006)

I've been in this business for a long time, 28 years or so, and IMO it really has to with your business and/or marketing plan.

We have done "vilation" work in D.C.. This is where the government FORCES apt. building owners to do repairs. I remember scraping kitchen ceilings and having 1000 roaches fall on my head, down my shirt, etc.. I was working for another company at the time, but the owner was rich!

We have also painted some of the nicest homes in the D.C. suburbs old and new whose owners were surgeons, pro ball players. and the rest of the UPPER CLASS.

We have painted bathtubs, refinish cabinets, faux finishes, lead abatement, and on and on.

When we were painting at our VERY highest quality, where it was hard to tell what was made of plastic and what was wood. Not a blemish in the trim or the walls, etc., it felt really good, but we were NOT making a lot of money! And we also noticed that our clients couldn't really distinguish the quality differences after we surpassed a certain level of quality.

That is about the time that we decided that VALUE was the best way to go. Value to me equals an 8 on a scale of 1-10. My reasoning is that there is no such thing as perfect or a 10. And that cost of going from a level 8, which is a high level of quality and all of the preperation steps are written in plain English along with the PDCA standard of a properly painted surface are included in every proposal; to a level 9, will cost the client TWICE as much money. This is going from the 1/2 hour door and frame, to a 1 hour door and frame because of filling every little tiny ding and sanding down to a 220 or 440 surface, and so on. It's just NOT giving the client VALUE IMO.

I don't tell this to all of our prospects. Like I said, EVERYTHING that we do is written in our propsal packets that we give each one. 

If I detect that someone is going to be SUPER picky, I will stop and tell them the difference that they will have to pay for a level 9 instead of a level 8 and that there is no auch thing as a 10, so if 10 is what they want, I might as well leave now!

The opposite is also true. If I detect that the person keeps talking about cheap or something like that, I will stop them, show them our standards and that if they want less than an 8, they MIGHT have to hire someone else. Or, I will have to cross out some of our pre-written standards, but we really don't like to do that type of work, or have that type of client in our database.

These are the reasons that I mentioned how long that I have been doing this. It took me a looong time to learn how to uncover what the clients really want and expect. It can be taught much faster than I learned though, fortunately for the up and comers!

There is NO DOUBT in my mind that is just as important to know who to say NO to, as it is to say YES to. This doesn't mean that we don't like to work for picky people. Quite the opposite really. We LOVE to work for picky people IF they are reasonable and we can come to a meeting of minds. And we will usually tack on an extra half day of work for every 2-3 days that we estimate. We just know that is what it will PROBABLY take to please them. And if we charge for it, and please them, the PICKY client can be our best referrer!

The opposite of this is sometimes true too. If someone wants their shed sprayed, and don't want to spend much money on it, and is a referral or repeat, we simply spell it out in the proposal that this is for one coat of spray only, zero prep. etc.. 

We would rather have the picky expensive client than the shed, but there are exceptions to all rules.

This is a great topic, and I think that it is one of the more challenging parts when selling paint jobs. Paint jobs need to be VERY clear to the client AND the painters, and even to the office should something come back at you at a later date. The wording needs to be CLEAR to all involved.

The biggest thing on my mind these days when selling paint jobs, is which jobs to walk away from . I KNOW that we have NEVER lost any money or sleep over jobs that we turned down. And I can remember LOTS of jobs throughout the years that we could have done without. The stats are that 2% of the people cannot be pleased regardless of what you do. If you can spot those 2% and turn them away, your life gets a little bit better! AND NOBODY in your company will enjoy the encounter with the 2%ers!

Paul


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## CarlW (Feb 2, 2006)

Paul, your post reminds me a bit of what I have always thought in the back of mind about being successful at painting....

If I could only drop my quality a little bit, I'd make a heck of a lot more money. It sounds stupid I know, but it just seems like a lot of us perfect type painters spend a rediculous amount of time making perfect the things that only about 5 percent of the pickiest customers actually notice, and hardly any of them want to pay for that perfection. What that means is that a lot of us may be painting perfectly out of pride while the guys that don't have that pride are making more money because they know that they can deal easily with that 5 percent. 5 percent may complain and 5 percent may make them come back and fix stuff but the other 95 percent are just paying and saying nothing. Yeah, my work may be better than theirs, but only 5 percent of the people care, so how does that help me? I guess I have more pride in my work but less $. Seems backwards.


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## Paul Burns (Jan 17, 2006)

Carl,

Another thing is how efficient we can be and still achieve the same quality. Washing decks comes to mind right now. If we use the wrong cleaner, then the power washing part can go VERY slow, When we use Wolman's powdered deck cleaner, it will go MUCH faster. But eve with a good powdered or other brand the works well, people can still get lulled into going real slow with the power washer especially when they hit a slow spot.

Sometimes when washing decks, you might have to go real slow with the washer, but other times on the same deck it will clean almost as fast as you can possibly move. So you have to consiously think about what you are doing or you might go slow through the whole deck when in reality 90% of it could have been washed as fast as you can move! The quality is the same.

Another example is siding that is being brushed instead of sprayed. It is at least twice as fast to roll and brush out siding as it is to brush only. But some painters wil NOT even try the roll first method. In this case, the roller is probably even better quality since their is less chance of lapping, and the paint goes on heavier and more even.

And who pays for a painter that isn't doing things the BEST, most efficient way possible. The homeowner, probably. So again, the VALUE is not there for them.

Of course I could give dozens of examples, like people that sit on their butts to paint baseboard are 2-3 times as slow as someone on their knees.

I really think VALUE is the key, and knowing how to achieve value is our jobs as professionals.

IOW, just because a method/system of painting is slower, does not mean that it is better. Often, because of laps, etc., faster actually = better quality.

Paul


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## Brian (Jun 9, 2004)

I agree with Paul. 

The easiest way to determine what level the customer wants is to simply ask. Customers don't always know. If they do, they can tell me. If they don't we can talk about their options. 

I'll actually point to various things-- the slight ridge in the drywall or the dings in the door jamb-- and ask if they want those repaired. Most of the time the customer didn't even notice them, and doesn't want them repaired, particularly after I explain the cost differential.

This allows me to spec the job properly and the customer knows what will and won't be done. We don't have to aim for perfection, because the customer doesn't want it, won't pay for it, and I'm not trying to deliver it.

Paul is also right about providing value. And value comes in many different forms. It's not just about putting paint on the walls. We certainly need to do that well, but we can also offer value in many other forms. Value is also about showing up on time, cleaning up, being courteous and respectful of the customer's property, offering convenience (such as taking credit cards), offering maintenance programs, offering product options, expanded services, and more. The more value you provide, the more you can charge with minimal or no effort.

Brian Phillips


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