# Becoming a Finish Carpenter



## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

You seem like a guy that cares about the quality of your work. That is something that is pretty hard to teach, if not impossible. Yet it is the one prerequisite to being good at the finish work. So by definition you start by caring. 

Learning comes from being aware of quality not only at your work but others. Stop and look at work that catches your eye. Try to figure out how it was done. What tools did it take? 

More important is what is it that caught your eye? Chances are it was a great sense of proportion and a wise choice of materials and moldings. Trim carpenters at their best have a great instinct of a smart design that functions as well as it looks. 

Basically you need to embrace the obsession of the craft. Until you start commenting about the millwork in the background of a movie, you aren't quite there.


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## tucnasam (Feb 1, 2016)

Gus Dering said:


> You seem like a guy that cares about the quality of your work.


You hit the nail on the head there. I've had most of my customers tell me I am "very meticulous" while handing me the check. Usually when finishing a job I'm pooping a brick because I'm worried they won't like my work, even though I know it's good, I still think it can be better.

I really appreciate your reply. Thank you.


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## StrongTower (Mar 4, 2010)

Just my opinion, but talent only takes you so far in this business. You have to have efficient systems to implement quality and production to be profitable and desired by builders. From tracts to high end custom, they all have a deadline and a budget. The more you mesh efficiency with quality product, will yield the desirability of the good builders. 

At least for me, the constant challenge of getting more efficient while maintaining a high quality standard is what makes this trade awesome. 


Service Exceeding Expectation


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

Haven't read full thread, but...
As Gus said, it starts with passion. From there it goes to technique. However, technique won't earn a living. To get there it takes repetition to get fast enough to compete and eventually beat out others. Only then will you get enough work to make a living.
Joe


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## Youngin' (Sep 16, 2012)

I first started as a framing labourer then got a job working for a builder. 

I'm a perfectionist and love working with the little details that a lot of other people don't have the patience for. I got moved into finishing shortly after starting with the builder. 

I think framing had a positive influence on my finishing. I was taught to hustle when needed but also to take time to get the little things right. I believe it gave me a balanced approach to starting finishing.


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## 1 NAILDRIVER (Nov 22, 2015)

Best advice I could give is to find someone who is an established Finish Carpenter and work for him for at least 4 years ( apprenticeship ) and then if you think you are cut out for it try going into business as a contractor. 

To become an accomplished Carpenter is an (accomplishment) it's not something that a man wakes up one day and decides he is one . 

Don't take what I have said as an insult it is not meant that way . But Carpentry is a Trade not just an occupation or a business to go into, becoming a Journeyman is to become part of the Craft . 

Good luck , I hope you do well .


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## cbdi (Nov 28, 2011)

*Production or Fine*

I know a guy that does production trim work, he can finish most houses in a day or two. He is paid by the foot, and has to replace his own 'mistakes'. He makes pretty good money because he his fast. That is the modern typical finish carpenter.

I know some guys that do general FINE trim carpentry. They do excellent work, charge market rates, and they eat peanut butter for dinner. It is a labor of love rather than profit.

My suggestion is to find a niche within the fine carpentry group. Try to work for the best in the business first-you will make mistakes and you might as well make them on someone else's dime. The cabinet guys do well because that is all they do and they are good and fast, and tooled up for it. The stair guys do well for the same reasons. And the wood flooring guys do great, and they will do baseboard too. The window guys do the windows....I even know a guy that builds secret doors.

Do what you do better and faster than anyone else and you will build a great pay-for-production business in your area. Hard work and persistence.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

To reiterate what cbdi is saying; if you generalize and do 'finish carpentry' youre going to have a tough time making money. Spencer does well, but he has some large builders in his pocket. Without that kind of relationship it will be hard. 

If its not about the money thats ok, but if you have mouths to feed one of the specializations should be chosen.

I got into hardwood because its predictable. I know exactly how long 400 square feet will take to finish. I know that the weather will not slow down work. I know what everyone is charging for that same 400 feet. Its also boring af and painful. I do it for the kids.


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## woodmagman (Feb 17, 2007)

I am thinking the question is, how do you start a finish carpentry business. 
Being a great finishing carpenter and a great businessman/person... are not the same.
If they were, there would not be so many great artists who died poor.
Just my thoughts.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Making money and becoming a Master of a craft are TWO different goals: Each will take about 10,000 hours for the non-naturals, the unlucky will never make money their first few tries.


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## Defenestrate (Aug 13, 2015)

Fouthgeneration said:


> Making money and becoming a Master of a craft are TWO different goals: Each will take about 10,000 hours for the non-naturals, the unlucky will never make money their first few tries.


Agree completely that mastery takes time. 

However, accepting that you'll _not make money_ for 5 years doesn't make sense. There are plenty of resources here and elsewhere that give a roadmap to figuring out costs of labor, material, overhead and profit. Once your numbers line up, getting work at the rate you need is about sales and marketing. 

Yes, you'll spend to build your systems and be underpaid from time to time at the outset, but if it takes 5 years/10,000 hours, I think you're doing it wrong.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

My revenue has grown 20 percent a year for the last six years. Largely due to what I learned here. The first fours years of contracting I lost money; didnt know it at the time. Then I joined ct.


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## tucnasam (Feb 1, 2016)

I'm curions but how did you lose money? I have not lost money on any of my jobs yet. I've made enough to grow a little bit. The only thing preventing me from expanding faster is the frequency of jobs. 

I've got a laminate job for this month. Bids been accepted. After taxes and materials I'llmake $3000 in 4 days of work...


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

Some guys figure they "lost" money when/if they don't complete the job in their estimated time frame. 
Instead of making an certain "hourly" rate, because the job took them longer, they are working at a lesser hourly rate and therefore lost money.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Expenses and taxes exceed revenue. Deficiency made up for with credit cards = lost money.

Or looking at it another way; if youre net worth is decreasing every year you are losing money. If its increasing youre profiting.


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## Needles (May 18, 2012)

You will know you are a finish carpenter when you can scribe into a 10,000 dollar custom shop built piece or live edge countertop slab that didn't quite fit in the field like was intended. Sure your a-hole will pucker but you will do it anyway with not much fear. Then you will know you made it. Sure you may screw something up. We all do some of us just know how to hide it.


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## StrongTower (Mar 4, 2010)

Needles said:


> You will know you are a finish carpenter when you can scribe into a 10,000 dollar custom shop built piece or live edge countertop slab that didn't quite fit in the field like was intended. Sure your a-hole will pucker but you will do it anyway with not much fear. Then you will know you made it. Sure you may screw something up. We all do some of us just know how to hide it.



This one required thought, but yes, there's always some puckering involved until confidence kicks in.










Service Exceeding Expectation


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## mgb (Oct 31, 2008)

I agree with people that state, start out with framing. To me a good finishing carpenter, is also a good carpenter all around.

I've worked along side some "trim" guys that hand drive 3" casing nails or spikes like they're a shoemaker.

You're practices and eye for detail are what set you apart from the next guy. It shows immensely when you care about what you do, and have put time/effort into being the best you can be.


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Defenstrate @ 31: I should have wrote ," you'll need at least average luck to turn a profit as an average businessman.... Those who start a business during the recession phase are mostly doomed....

The failure rate at succeeding at a profitable business is much higher then becoming a mastercraftworker 

Some Crafts are currently given away to illegal alien workers, such as dry walling, concrete & unit masonry, meat packing etc.... Mastering these is like learning how to pick cotton in the Pre-war Slave States, It didn't pay much and or earn much respect.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

Your quickest path to your goals (no matter in what arena they may be) is to not give a seconds thought to the nay sayers. Asking others how or what they did or did not do,while entertaining,truly has little impact on you unless you allow their reality become your reality.



Many,many, years ago,I was fortunate enough to be privy to a round table discussion led by a very wise and very successful commercial and industrial real estate broker / developer. In that conversation,he said "ask any three people who are struggling to get the rent money together for their apartment rent ,any question on any topic. Then ask any three people who own three or more shopping centers of a million square feet or more each the very same question and I guarantee you will get completely different answers from each group."



Bottom line,do not let others life experiences influence yours unless that is the reality you want to create for yourself. Always look at the glass and see it half full,not half empty.Look towards what you want and turn a blind eye to what you do not want.Like Rocky said "keep your eye on the prize"


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