# Didn't get paid



## sallyfrvalley (Oct 29, 2010)

I subd out a job and it's been 2 weeks and he still hasn't paid me. He's been lying since the job was completed saying he didn't have the check yet, saying the bank put a hold on it because it was an insurance check...on and on. Come to find out from the homeowner, he was paid the last day we were there, he was also paid by personal check. I've told the homeowner that i don't want to put a lien on his home but i may have to if i don't get paid. Clearly he was not happy since he paid already paid the main contractor in full. What other recourse do i have? Another issue is I know the contractor didn't pull a permit..with that i'm sure there will be no inspection so how am I liable in that respect. I'm at a loss. any help would be greatly appreciated!


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Question #1 Do you have a written contract with the contractor who hired you?
Question #2 Where you from?

Not knowing your location and by the situation you described in NJ you would have a problem collecting from anyone, even putting a lien on the house can be a problem for you and you will get sued...because if the HO contacts an attorney in that regard, and they Attorney will find out there should have been a permit and it wasn't, and your State requires to have a licensed contractor performing work...they will go after the contractor to get theirs money back (and they will) and more then likely if this guy didn't split yet, you will have to go after him by taking him to court...which will probably get you nowhere if there is no contract.

You in a bad situation my friend...


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## sallyfrvalley (Oct 29, 2010)

No written contract and we're in Minnesota I have my LLC but the General is the one or the HO that should have got the permit. My concern is there any future liability concerns for myself since there wasn't an inspection. =(


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## OldNBroken (Feb 8, 2008)

Yes, you can be held liable. If there is any issue everyone involved will be named in any suit. Don't worry too much, your *roofing* liability insurance will cover your legal fees to defend you in this situation. (of course you are properly insured, right?)
As far as collecting your money, without a contract it will be tough bringing suit against him but it's worth a try in small claims I guess.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

The way law looks at this things around here, HO is responsible that the permit be secured for the work done on the property. Contractor by law cannot do any work without permit.

In your situation... if you go after the HO for your money...they will have no choice but going after the contractor for whatever theirs lawyer will come up with and what is allowed by law and they will most likely counter sue you for some type of a damage their lawyer will suggest, i.e harassment,special damages, frivolous lawsuit,etc because they don't owe you anything, there is no contract...going after him, at least there is a verbal contract, you will not get all your money, but there is a slim chance you will get a little back.

On the general note,,,I don't know how much money is involved...but you in a tight spot, think real good before you start something, so you don't be out more then its owed... I would consult an attorney...He would advise what you can get and if its worth the effort, because after his end, you be left with nothing...

Good luck


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## sallyfrvalley (Oct 29, 2010)

i guess if i have to take a loss i do...i just don't want 3 years down the road for them to say something is wrong when everything was right...hence the need for the inspection. I don't have a specific roofing insurance. another horrible lessoned learned:sad:


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Today you gotta have all this stuff, you cannot run your business from day to day...you need to cover yourself long term...It's your bread and butter. If HO has your information and something goes wrong and they cannot locate the original contractor, most likely they will go after you...you will be screwed and your only option be if you cannot afford to handle it... is play dumb and act like you have no clue what anyone is talking about which is not a Honorable thing to do... 

I hope it works out for you, but don't take this lesson lightly and cover yourself and the business so you don't have to worry about this things and get yourself in this situations, and also always have a contract...

Good luck


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## sallyfrvalley (Oct 29, 2010)

Agreed! I'm actually the wife, and now we've talked to the contractor...which appears to not have a state license either..at least according to the mn website, and now he's saying that he needs to be added on the certificate of insurance. The job is done, is this legal? He won't pay him because of this...it seems as though he's looking for any little thing to not pay him. And do you need a certificate of insurance if your not even a licensed general contractor??


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

yes send him one


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

Yes, you needs certs in order to get paid or pay no matter if your licensed or not.

Of course in MN you have to have a license to pull permits to do roofing unless your doing roofing work in an area that doesn't require permits but by MN state law your still suposed to be licensed. Done work in a few counties and cities that don't require a permit to be pulled to replace a roof.

As far as recourse for payment it may be small claims court time. That is of course with a limit of $5K or something. Never been to court so not sure how those things work.

What part of MN did you sub from this "contractor"?

If you start raising heck with the city for not pulling the permit the contractor will be getting a call or letter in the mail and this will more than likely greatly reduce your chances of getting paid.


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## sallyfrvalley (Oct 29, 2010)

can he be added on my husbands liability now that the job is complete?


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## sallyfrvalley (Oct 29, 2010)

we've already sent him proof of liability and work comp but now he wants to be listed on our insurance


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

sallyfrvalley said:


> we've already sent him proof of liability and work comp but now he wants to be listed on our insurance


the cert is only good for that job. Your carrier will provide it at no charge. No biggie. If he still doesn't pay................


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## Rob PA (Aug 30, 2010)

in PA you might as well put your contract next to the TP holder in the bathroom..or take the TP to court will be worth more

i do agree that think hard before dragging it into court..after all that fun and loss of work from sitting in there it wont be worth it...this year i have had 3 jobs go unpaid...each one there were warning signs that i noticed but didnt think much of...i now pack up my stuff or pull out if i notice any of these first thing...every time during those 3 jobs when i noticed these things i would talk with everyone involved and it seemed ok..but in the end my pocket was empty

if they start nitpicking for stuff crap, bring stuff up weeks or months later, or say everything looks ok..then once the final invoice comes in it looks like crap then ya know


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

Was this a "contractor" listed on craigslist or something? haha
Many crooks in this business, especially in this state. I wouldn't do a [email protected] thing for that scum bag. He's already not legal....go demand your money!

Could be a handful of different people. I look up every contractor that I see advertising and only about half are legit.


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## sallyfrvalley (Oct 29, 2010)

It Sure was a Craigslister...He sent a very interesting fax saying that the job was done horribly blah blah blah and that he will pay 800 bucks....on a 3300 job...I'm going to meet with our lawyer on Monday. This guy is a cracker Jack. The job was completed over 2 weeks ago and there not one single word about the quality of the job until NOW..because we are demanding our money. 

So is there any punishment for roofing contractors that aren't licensed? Let's say we could catch him at one of his other scam jobs trying to screw another unsuspecting person and HO...Is it worth the effort?


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

_Take the money and furgedabowdit. 
Smarten up or starve.
:thumbup:​_


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## MJW (Jan 27, 2006)

sallyfrvalley said:


> It Sure was a Craigslister...He sent a very interesting fax saying that the job was done horribly blah blah blah and that he will pay 800 bucks....on a 3300 job...I'm going to meet with our lawyer on Monday. This guy is a cracker Jack. The job was completed over 2 weeks ago and there not one single word about the quality of the job until NOW..because we are demanding our money.
> 
> So is there any punishment for roofing contractors that aren't licensed? Let's say we could catch him at one of his other scam jobs trying to screw another unsuspecting person and HO...Is it worth the effort?


Probably Phoenix ........ whatever he calls himself nowadays. Don't know the guy at all, but advertises a lot with no license or insurance and lies about it. Plenty of info on people if you just do a simple google search of their name, company name, etc....

Your lawyer should give you some good advise on how to nail the guy if there is a way. I am no lawyer, so I don't know. Take a look at the DOLI website and all the statutes they provide.

Do yourself a favor, get licensed and do your own jobs.


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## sallyfrvalley (Oct 29, 2010)

Well we do know his full name, his operating name and home address now so that makes things easier. If there is a way to nail this guy..i will find it! Stick a fork in me...I"M DONE! He apparently didn't realize who my husbands wife was...and I don't take kindly to empty threats, even if we don't get our money..i will get all of our 3k worth out of this one way or another. I will make sure that EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT HIM AND HIS BUSINESS PRACTICES...oh and of course the fact that he's not licensed and operates as though he is.:thumbup:
And it has become quite clear that i will need to manage my husbands business as well. He's a great roofer and carpenter but clearly no business man.


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

sallyfrvalley said:


> Well we do know his full name, his operating name and home address now so that makes things easier. If there is a way to nail this guy..i will find it! Stick a fork in me...I"M DONE! He apparently didn't realize who my husbands wife was...and I don't take kindly to empty threats, even if we don't get our money..i will get all of our 3k worth out of this one way or another. I will make sure that EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT HIM AND HIS BUSINESS PRACTICES...oh and of course the fact that he's not licensed and operates as though he is.:thumbup:
> And it has become quite clear that i will need to manage my husbands business as well. He's a great roofer and carpenter but clearly no business man.


Are you confident the job was done to standards? If so, tell him you will pay an independent roof inspector to inspect the roof at your expense. Upon completion he will receive another bill. In the meantime, don't be afraid to put a labor lien on the house. That will get the HO on his case as well. That's just what I would do.

If you guys were owed 3 grand, you would just walk away and "learn" from it before even trying to get your money? Crazy.


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## dougger222 (Jan 29, 2004)

As far as I know the IRS would have to strip him of his S corp status.


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## sallyfrvalley (Oct 29, 2010)

:thumbup:Met with the lawyer today and retained him. Even he could see that this guy is a douche bag and very manipulative. Infact our lawyer even spoke to him this morning on speaker phone...he sounded very nervous..LOL At any rate we filed the prelim stuff today..HO and GC will be getting the pre-lien notice tomm or the next day. :clap: I will keep you posted as to how things develop...I'm hoping he will decide to just pay what he owes and be done with it...if we have to litigate.. mr. douche bag will be responsible for all legal fee's if we win...so it's a pretty clear choice. Pay what he owes or he's gonna owe more! sweet justice!


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

......................


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## jdorpaudi (Nov 11, 2010)

if i were you, i would send your husband back to take back the shingles he put on.


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## Edsollen (Oct 30, 2006)

No can do! Installed material is considered a part of the real estate.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

yea whats he going to do with stripped shingles any way?pay to dump them?:blink:


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

sallyfrvalley said:


> :thumbup:Met with the lawyer today and retained him. Even he could see that this guy is a douche bag and very manipulative. Infact our lawyer even spoke to him this morning on speaker phone...he sounded very nervous..LOL At any rate we filed the prelim stuff today..HO and GC will be getting the pre-lien notice tomm or the next day. :clap: I will keep you posted as to how things develop...I'm hoping he will decide to just pay what he owes and be done with it...if we have to litigate.. mr. douche bag will be responsible for all legal fee's if we win...so it's a pretty clear choice. Pay what he owes or he's gonna owe more! sweet justice!


_Are we to assume you are duly licensed and insured?
Don't count your chickens before they hatch.
:thumbup:
_​


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## johnk (Apr 23, 2007)

Or prepare for a court battle that will consume any amount owed and then some:sad:


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## aikenback (Jun 4, 2008)

I read a few posts. Here is another approach. Licenced or not you did the work and should get paid. the main contractor or h.o. is liable for inspections etc. with no paperwork, you are just a workman in this situation. as far as getting paid, up here in canada, one call to the taxman telling them you didnt get your last paycheque, and there have been no source deductions, and havent recieved your record of employment from the guy, and they would royally f**k him up. It's amazing how compliant a person like that can be when they are motivated. as far as the situation with the taxman, you wanted a job and you were taken advantage of. remember how they got Capone, IRS.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

I read some of the replies at the start and a few of the last replies, sounds as though you may come out OK but at some expense. If this HO does not pay and a lien is put in place then i would not warranty any work if he request it. Its a two way street!


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

sallyfrvalley said:


> :thumbup:Met with the lawyer today and retained him. Even he could see that this guy is a douche bag and very manipulative. Infact our lawyer even spoke to him this morning on speaker phone...he sounded very nervous..LOL At any rate we filed the prelim stuff today..HO and GC will be getting the pre-lien notice tomm or the next day. :clap: I will keep you posted as to how things develop...I'm hoping he will decide to just pay what he owes and be done with it...if we have to litigate.. *mr. douche bag will be responsible for all legal fee's if we win*...so it's a pretty clear choice. Pay what he owes or he's gonna owe more! sweet justice!


As stated by someone else already, don't count your chickens before they are hatched.

It usually takes a long time to go through the entire court process and even then, if you win, often times the judiciary follows what is commonly known as, "The American Rule", regarding each party being responsible for their own legal expenses, even if you have some version of a clause accepted in your signed contract that states that.

I just finished up a 3 1/2 year long case regarding $ 22,000.00 and when all was said and done, even though I was awarded a 100 % victory, the amount I recieved was around $ 10,000.00 and that took 3 1/2 years to get from the time we did the job.

Sometimes it's better to take what you can get, within reason and concentrate on current and future projects, rather than hope for a full meritous victory and always referring back to the past. You know, "A Bird In The Hand....." as they say.

Good Luck,

Ed


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## outlaw (Jan 7, 2009)

.

Sometimes it's better to take what you can get, within reason and concentrate on current and future projects, rather than hope for a full meritous victory and always referring back to the past. You know, "A Bird In The Hand....." as they say.

Good Luck,

Ed[/quote]


Sound advice Ed. 

I am in the midst of going after a former employee that stole over $40k. Sometimes I wonder if I'll ever get a penny back. I also wonder how much business opportunity I have missed because of the time and energy spent on this. However, the thought of her getting away scott-free and then doing it to someone else keeps me from backing off. As always, my primary purpose is to serve my fellow human beings.


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

sallyfrvalley said:


> :thumbup:Met with the lawyer today and retained him. Even he could see that this guy is a douche bag and very manipulative. Infact our lawyer even spoke to him this morning on speaker phone...he sounded very nervous..LOL At any rate we filed the prelim stuff today..HO and GC will be getting the pre-lien notice tomm or the next day. :clap: I will keep you posted as to how things develop...I'm hoping he will decide to just pay what he owes and be done with it...if we have to litigate.. mr. douche bag will be responsible for all legal fee's if we win...so it's a pretty clear choice. Pay what he owes or he's gonna owe more! sweet justice!


Here's how it goes in NY:

If the GC doesn't come through, you sue the HO and their insurance 
will cover it right away as long as you prove your owed that money. 

Then, the insurance co. will go after the GC relentlessly. 

Either way, I think you'll be alright. 

Last year this time, I got jerked by a GC on a 2nd job I did for him.
The HO from the 1st job had to sue him for something else after him.
The HO was so happy with my work that he covered what the GC owed me ($900.) 
and gave me his mother's 50sq ranch to do and recommends me to 
everybody that walks by his house and compliments his new roof. 
They tell him it's the best roof work they've seen.

Do your best to keep an amicable relationship with the HO. 
They may help you win your case against the GC and they 
can vouch for your professionalism and your good work
(it's in their interest to make sure that you get paid). 

Why am I saying this? To brag about my work? No.
To show you that when you're good and you do the right thing, 
you don't have to worry...fate has a way of paying you back what other's take from you. 

The GC there will get screwed for sure (deservedly so). Both your's and mine.
(matter of fact, the 1st HO won his case easily against the GC). 

Be patient and as hard as this might sound to have to hear, 
don't let your ego or your pride get in the way. 

Yes, there is satisfaction in winning a case, but don't lose sleep over it. 

Wishing you the best...2G. 

:thumbsup:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

johnk said:


> Or prepare for a court battle that will consume any amount owed and then some:sad:


John! What's up brother! :thumbup:


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## 2ndGen (Apr 6, 2006)

Ed the Roofer said:


> As stated by someone else already, don't count your chickens before they are hatched.
> 
> It usually takes a long time to go through the entire court process and even then, if you win, often times the judiciary follows what is commonly known as, "The American Rule", regarding each party being responsible for their own legal expenses, even if you have some version of a clause accepted in your signed contract that states that.
> 
> ...


Ed,

You're 100% right.

I've walked away from a lot of money by doing this, 
but saved years of aggravation and actually slept better.

OP, I'm not suggesting you "lay down" 
everytime someone takes advantage of you, 
but definitely LEARN the lesson here. 

And remember...


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