# Working for lawyers who don't read their contract



## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Just completed a roof for a lawyer... our next to last roof, before I am just gutters. 

The roof contract included a new 12'x18' screen porch build. Initially (per contract) primed pine trim, Fir Tongue and Groove flooring all ready to paint as I'm no painter for a fair price we both agreed and signed. This new porch was to include new gutter, clearly stated as 5" gutter on new screen porch. 

After the clear contract was signed we walked out in the driveway and he asked about gutters and gutter protection. I pulled out my tabletop display and showed him, also the slots for heat tape. He wanted information and I told him I'd get it for him. 

Roof moved right long well, and with a record year for rain he sent me an email wanting the gutters installed and with the cover and heat tape. This system for this substantial home BTW is five figures. 

Other changes mid job... materials: Azec Porch Plank and then composite trim to which I calculated the difference and adding this to the gutters I submitted a change order with values. The customer's wife (also signer of the contract) called to tell me her basement was flooding and wanted gutters installed ASAP. So I did, mostly in the rain the gutters and spouts were installed. The basement BTW was unfinished and caused no damage. 

The day after the gutters were installed I was sent a email stating the additional gutters, guards, heat tape and material changes were all included and accounted for in the contract- which they were not. 

I know what I did at this point, I'm really looking for other professional contractors opinions and what they would do if they were confronted with this situation other than contact your attorney. When the responses roll in I will gladly post my moves.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

If its not in the contract, its not in the contract. 

Is he a litigator?


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## country_huck (Dec 2, 2009)

I was always told don't work for lawyers.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

He doesn't need to read it because he knows used toilet paper has more value to it....

You may think contract says no gutters or whatever, but....

Attorney's are masters at manipulating, twisting and confusing anything that is written.

Not to mention he can file writs & motions until you just give up or go broke....






Now the good side....:thumbsup:

If you can get an arbitrator, judge or jury to see through what he is doing you may prevail....

Good Luck...:thumbsup:


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Signed change orders? Text or email confirmation? Anything?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Collect as much as you can, wait for the cheque to clear, then chain the gutters to your trailer hitch and ask for the balance


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

No signed changes, email request by him but not a value. 

At this point I'm not out enough money to hurt, I stopped work and emailed him the status- "We will not move progress further until an agreement on additional costs are agreed and signed by both and payments are current".


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> Collect as much as you can, wait for the cheque to clear, then chain the gutters to your trailer hitch and ask for the balance


In this state, delivered materials are property of the owner.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Roofcheck said:


> In this state, delivered materials are property of the owner.


Never said it was legal son.


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Jaws said:


> If its not in the contract, its not in the contract.
> 
> Is he a litigator?


Yes. Business Law, commutes 300 miles to his office. Probably a big deal there.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Every once in a while we all encounter a class-a jack ass, I'd say I seem to run into one every year and a half...but that's a rough number.

They are criminals and will do anything to get away with not paying you.

First thing I do is show up at dinner time and knock on the door for a reasonable conversation. When a rough bearded crooked faced fat guy starts pounding on your door it really limbers up the cheque writing hand. It's really easy to have a lying sac of sh!t fold like a cheap card table when your are there in person in front of his family.

If that doesn't work then you have a choice, write it off or take it to court. Honestly unless it was a significant amount of money I'd avoid the lawyer route age the account for a while, keep sending bills, then write it off at tax time.

...Or call up the collection agency "smith and wesson" :shifty:


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

I've already been emailers is me that owes him $10k plus the cost it will to complete the project, breach of contract. 

So yes, I have talked to my attorney- customers 10 days to pay is up on the 4th and I will be turning it over to may attorney on the 5th. 

It just sucks is all. As I posted its my second to the last roof making me hate the outcome. Thanks for our responses guys.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I work for a lot of attorneys, never had a problem.

Looked at a very large remodel last year, prospective client was like 40, very wealthy, a litigator, and took exception to our arbitration clause. We didn't do the work.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I won't work tor lawyers or doctors


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

jlsconstruction said:


> I won't work tor lawyers or doctors


Primarily oil men for me, but quite a few doctors, attorneys, and engineer's.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

jlsconstruction said:


> I won't work tor lawyers or doctors


I'd be damn near out of a job!

The vast majority of lawyers I work and have worked for have been truly excellent people. A person's profession is in NO WAY an indication of the quality of their character.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> I'd be damn near out of a job!
> 
> The vast majority of lawyers I work and have worked for have been truly excellent people. A person's profession is in NO WAY an indication of the quality of their character.




So...drug dealers, hit men, robbers, thieves, con artists etc, when not elected to a political office, are your average straight up no BS guys?:whistling


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

griz said:


> So...drug dealers, hit men, robbers, thieves, con artists etc, when not elected to a political office, are your average straight up no BS guys?:whistling


I can't for the life of me see why anyone wouldn't want to work for a Dr. if you do good work, and what you say you will. They are intelligent, educated and well funded. They will percieve and pay for value when they see it, in my experience. 

Attorneys get a bad rap. Some are scum bag, ambulance chasers. Some are guys saving business owners tax dollars, some are prosecuting criminals, some are business lawyers, some are litigators. Litigators are obviously litigious :whistling:laughing: Might behoove one to be careful.

I know it sucks when someone automatically thinks im an over charging, illegal hiring, robber barron because im a contractor.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

Jaws said:


> I can't for the life of me see why anyone wouldn't want to work for a Dr. if you do good work, and what you say you will. They are intelligent, educated and well funded. They will percieve and pay for value when they see it, in my experience.
> 
> Attorneys get a bad rap. Some are scum bag, ambulance chasers. Some are guys saving business owners tax dollars, some are prosecuting criminals, some are business lawyers, some are litigators. Litigators are obviously litigious :whistling:laughing: Might behoove one to be careful.
> 
> I know it sucks when someone automatically thinks im an over charging, illegal hiring, robber barron because im a contractor.




Your not an over charging, illegal hiring, robber barron?:blink:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

donerightwyo said:


> Your not an over charging, illegal hiring, robber barron?:blink:


I try, but the illegals want to much jack, I hire dudes on work release from county, and I cant get the mark up I deserve because I am a bad salesman


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

We once did a $600.00 dollar window replacement at a scum bag lawyers office. He was happy with the work but still only sent $300.00 and a note that said he figured it would cost us at least three hundred to get the rest out of him so we would just call it even. 

I think it's funny now but it wasn't then:laughing:


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> I'd be damn near out of a job!
> 
> The vast majority of lawyers I work and have worked for have been truly excellent people. A person's profession is in NO WAY an indication of the quality of their character.


Every time I hve ever been screwed its been by a doc or lawyers. I like my hard working middle class. They seem to understand hard work


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

Jaws said:


> I try, but the illegals want to much jack, I hire dudes on work release from county, and I cant get the mark up I deserve because I am a bad salesman


Illegals are greedy here to You get a markup?:blink:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Never had a problem with a doctor...:thumbsup:

I was good friends with and a neighbor of a HIGH powered criminal defense attorney.....

The FEW problems I had, lawyer or not, a phone call from this guy got results...:thumbsup:

If he had to write a letter it cost me.....:whistling

a couple of racks of ribs & a bottle of Makers or so....:laughing::laughing:


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

griz said:


> Never had a problem with a doctor...:thumbsup:
> 
> I was good friends with and a neighbor of a HIGH powered criminal defense attorney.....
> 
> ...


To be honest, I always had a predisposition to not like lawyers. 

I have become acquaintances with 3 who are on our HBA board, all good guys. Kind of put it in new light. 

I have done work for one (his ex wifes house, he paid )

One is my ex attorney ( now district judge) and we ate lunch a half a dozen times, I learned more about business CYA in those few hours than I ever could taking contract seminars.

The other and I share professional advice pretty regular. I have looked at two projects that he was in suit for and gave him some pointers the engineers missed. He has done a few things over the phone for me without sending a bill (he is now my attorney after my old one was elected.)

Point is, criminals aside, all professions have chit balls and good guys.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

donerightwyo said:


> Illegals are greedy here to You get a markup?:blink:


Not really. I go in at 6-8%, then hit them with change orders at 300% :thumbsup::laughing:

You want flooring? Thats extra. 

You want more than one can light in the kitchen? Thats extra

Driveway? 

Garage? 

2 coats of paint? 

Between that and beating down the subs after the job has been awarded, I do ok. 
:laughing::laughing:


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Roofcheck said:


> I've already been emailers is me that owes him $10k plus the cost it will to complete the project, breach of contract.
> 
> So yes, I have talked to my attorney- customers 10 days to pay is up on the 4th and I will be turning it over to may attorney on the 5th.
> 
> It just sucks is all. As I posted its my second to the last roof making me hate the outcome. Thanks for our responses guys.


Can I get a translation of that first sentence?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Jaws said:


> Not really. I go in at 6-8%, then hit them with change orders at 300% :thumbsup::laughing:
> 
> You want flooring? Thats extra.
> 
> ...


That's some funny chit....

Reminds me of a guy I used to work around in Sacramento...


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

griz said:


> That's some funny chit....
> 
> Reminds me of a guy I used to work around in Sacramento...


Unfortunately it reminds me of A LOT of guys....

An uninformed populace makes for easy targets apparently


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

donerightwyo said:


> We once did a $600.00 dollar window replacement at a scum bag lawyers office. He was happy with the work but still only sent $300.00 and a note that said he figured it would cost us at least three hundred to get the rest out of him so we would just call it even.
> 
> I think it's funny now but it wasn't then:laughing:


Hypothetically, you might have mentioned to him that your guy wouldn't charge more than $50 to get the $300 but, in the interest of saving $50, you'd still accept the $300 directly if it arrived in the next hour.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

EthanB said:


> Hypothetically, you might have mentioned to him that your guy wouldn't charge more than $50 to get the $300 but, in the interest of saving $50, you'd still accept the $300 directly if it arrived in the next hour.


"Did you see that big azz hooligan that was toting chit when we were doing your project? I told him his check wasn't short, you just had the rest of it. Ralph needs the dough, too. He hase parole fees and child support...." :thumbsup:


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

EthanB said:


> Hypothetically, you might have mentioned to him that your guy wouldn't charge more than $50 to get the $300 but, in the interest of saving $50, you'd still accept the $300 directly if it arrived in the next hour.


Comfort windows repossessed windows they put in our trooper barracks.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

Ummm, this was a scary ass gangster type lawyer.:gun_bandana: I was young and easily intimidated.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

My old partner still to this day has a absolutely no lawyer policy from that incident.:laughing:

He told me he offers to work for them for a 110% deposit. Then he will refund the 10 percent on job completion.:whistling


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

EthanB said:


> Can I get a translation of that first sentence?


I've already been emailed from customer/ lawyer that it is I that owe him $10,000 as it is a breach of contract. 

iPad typing at it's best, my bad.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Roofcheck said:


> I've already been emailed from customer/ lawyer that it is I that owe him $10,000 as it is a breach of contract.
> 
> iPad typing at it's best, my bad.


Just burn his house down :laughing:


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

It's his way of negotiating. 

I started this post to hear other like minded perspectives. I will pay extra to have a deputy serve papers, at his office in the daytime amongst his peers. I've done it once before to a woman who slammed her door in my face right after telling me she did not like her deck that was already furnished with new furniture and an ashtray full of cig butts- (the long skinny ones only a chic would smoke). She paid me by certified check the following day. 

Very powerful.


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## donerightwyo (Oct 10, 2011)

Roofcheck said:


> It's his way of negotiating.
> 
> I started this post to hear other like minded perspectives. I will pay extra to have a deputy serve papers, at his office in the daytime amongst his peers. I've done it once before to a woman who slammed her door in my face right after telling me she did not like her deck that was already furnished with new furniture and an ashtray full of cig butts- (the long skinny ones only a chic would smoke). She paid me by certified check the following day.
> 
> Very powerful.


Sounds to me like you have it handled:thumbsup:


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I did the same thing to a guy last year. We did his roof and I remembered for wme reason he golfed on Mondays. So afte chasing my money for a month I went to golf course, and waited till he was with his buddies. Worst part was he hands me a check that was folded up in his wallet dated for the day we finished work.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> Never said it was legal
> 
> 
> > Pot calls kettle black.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

griz said:


> So...drug dealers, hit men, robbers, thieves, con artists etc, when not elected to a political office, are your average straight up no BS guys?:whistling


Griz in all honesty I've dealt with some serious drug dealers and in one occasion the guy who was partnered in the largest white collard crime in Canadian history...and they were all very kind individuals who had no problem paying their bill.

So yes, in my business experience they are.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

What have I ever physically done that was illegal?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I've always had great experiences working for lawyers. They have actually become personal friends of mine. I have one attorney that tells me he gets the phone hung up on him all the time if they find out he's an attorney. A real good friend of mine is a district attorney we met from a very large kitchen remodel that I did for him. My wife and I go to his home for BBQ's and he has no problem given me free legal advise. I also do him construction favors as well. I think there are good people and bad people in all professions. But I don't think the profession determines that.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> I'd be damn near out of a job!
> 
> The vast majority of lawyers I work and have worked for have been truly excellent people. A person's profession is in NO WAY an indication of the quality of their character.


I'd have to disagree. Lawyers are, in general, bottom-feeding, scum-sucking, wastes of human DNA.

As Shakespeare once said, "First thing we do is, we kill all the Lawyers".


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

A.T.C. said:


> I'd have to disagree. Lawyers are, in general, bottom-feeding, scum-sucking, wastes of human DNA.
> 
> As Shakespeare once said, "First thing we do is, we kill all the Lawyers".


Until you need one to save your azz.


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## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

If it wasn't for lawyers obfuscating the truth, distorting facts, manipulating the law, and outright lying, no one would need them.

If anyone else did what lawyers do on a daily basis, they would call it "Racketeering".

Oh, wait. They did.

Except it was Italians, not Harvard educated white people.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

A.T.C. said:


> If it wasn't for lawyers obfuscating the truth, distorting facts, manipulating the law, and outright lying, no one would need them.
> 
> If anyone else did what lawyers do on a daily basis, they would call it "Racketeering".
> 
> ...


I've needed my lawyer to protect me from people that do those things, but never needed my lawyer to do those things. ( obfuscating the truth, distorting the facts, manipulating the law, and outright lying )


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

A.T.C. said:


> I'd have to disagree. Lawyers are, in general, bottom-feeding, scum-sucking, wastes of human DNA.
> 
> As Shakespeare once said, "First thing we do is, we kill all the Lawyers".


We're talking about dealing with them from a business prospective. How many lawyer clients have you had and how many have you had problems with?


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## ohiohomedoctor (Dec 26, 2010)

I haven't really ever had an issue from either type. One lawyer was a pita but it had more to do with him than his perfession.

We created a "secure compound" many years ago which to date was one of my favorite projects..


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

Roofcheck said:


> I've already been emailed from customer/ lawyer that it is I that owe him $10,000 as it is a breach of contract.
> 
> iPad typing at it's best, my bad.


Oh that is nasty. Most of the VT judges I know would crucify him if this went to court and you had any kind of documentation. Just like contractors, lawyers hate guys that make them look crooked.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

donerightwyo said:


> We once did a $600.00 dollar window replacement at a scum bag lawyers office. He was happy with the work but still only sent $300.00 and a note that said he figured it would cost us at least three hundred to get the rest out of him so we would just call it even.
> 
> I think it's funny now but it wasn't then:laughing:


Around here a brick would make up the difference.


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## Eaglei (Aug 1, 2012)

First kitchen installation I did way back when I first started working for a kitchen and bathroom contractor . Boss told me when I get to the job site to take out all the cabinets I installed last week . Told me they were the wrong color . I later found out the Dr. was a dead beat .:laughing: Just following orders . :blink:


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

EthanB said:


> Oh that is nasty. Most of the VT judges I know would crucify him if this went to court and you had any kind of documentation. Just like contractors, lawyers hate guys that make them look crooked.


Thats what I am expecting. Damn pretty house for my portfolio too. Shame.


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## eastend (Jan 24, 2006)

Lawyers are trained to be adversarial . I think it becomes a contest for them to see how many holes they can poke through with anyone they deal with, be it business or professoinal.
That's not to say there aren't lawyers who are great guys ( or gals). But as a group- beware!


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

I do appreciate all the comments.


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## Chris G (May 17, 2006)

I have never had a good experience with a lawyer, doctor, or engineer. I avoid them best I can.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Chris G said:


> I have never had a good experience with a lawyer, doctor, or engineer. I avoid them best I can.


I would lose tons of Business if I avoided them. Ive never had any more problems with them then anyone else.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Chris G said:


> I have never had a good experience with a lawyer, doctor, or engineer. I avoid them best I can.


You are missing out on a possible long term customer who never asks about price, gives you a key to their house and tells you to keep it.

Calls and tells you what they want done, just let them know when you are done and how much.

There are some Dr's and lawyers that I work for regularly and have not seen in a few years because they work long hours, especially corporate counsels. Once they see what you do and like your work it's never a problem. 

The young lawyers do need to be told my rules before working for them.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

rrk said:


> You are missing out on a possible long term customer who never asks about price, gives you a key to their house and tells you to keep it.
> 
> Calls and tells you what they want done, just let them know when you are done and how much.
> 
> ...


Most of my issues (which is very little) come from people between 35 and 40 who are just starting to make something of themselves. They seem to have a " I'm smarter then you attitude" regardless of their profession.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> Most of my issues (which is very little) come from people between 35 and 40 who are just starting to make something of themselves. They seem to have a " I'm smarter then you attitude" regardless of their profession.



My favorite trick, when one of these young smart a$$e$, or old one, was trying to educate me, was just to get up and walk out...:thumbsup:


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