# Smooth Ceiling Problem



## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

It sounds like the Illegals did the drywall and hit the joints with one coat of mud, that's what you get for $0.05 sqft for drywall:laughing:
I would float out the seams witha 14" knife on each side of the joint, I would also use Durabond 20 and not the easy sand crap, then give it a lite sand. prime and repaint. Good luck


www.frankawitz.net


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## kgphoto (May 9, 2006)

Brocktologist said:


> Stick with A/C since you obviously know nothing about drywall.
> If you did know even a little you'd know mudd and paper will absorb the primer and paint differently, therefore you need to texture or skim coat.
> Later DH!:laughing:


Actually wouldn't it be true that if the surface was sealed with a PVA primer that would even out the absorption and then it wouldn't require a texture?


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Brocktologist said:


> Stick with A/C since you obviously know nothing about drywall.
> If you did know even a little you'd know mudd and paper will absorb the primer and paint differently, therefore you need to texture or skim coat.
> Later DH!:laughing:


If your work needs to be textured, you are obviously a hack.

Texturing walls and ceilings is the way to hide crappy drywall work.

BTW I have had the Certified Building Contractors License longer than I have had the Certified A/C License, I am a REAL contractor, not just a drywall sub.


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## Deicide1 (Nov 12, 2008)

Brocktologist said:


> Stick with A/C since you obviously know nothing about drywall.
> If you did know even a little you'd know mudd and paper will absorb the primer and paint differently, therefore you need to texture or skim coat.
> Later DH!:laughing:




One coat of good primer, and the paint will adhere the same on all surfaces, be it drywall, or joint-compound. 


You should know this.


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## Brocktologist (Sep 16, 2008)

kgphoto said:


> Actually wouldn't it be true that if the surface was sealed with a PVA primer that would even out the absorption and then it wouldn't require a texture?


IMO when the sun shine through a large window you will always see the joints and even where you spotted the screws unless you skim coat or texture the surface.
May be I'm just too picky and can see everything therefore I think everyone else can see it too. It's a lot like the "when are you finally done" thread. But it is of my opinion if you want smooth walls you need to skim coat them.
Now you can and will hide a lot more of it if you roll or backroll the primer and paint compared to just spraying it on.
This all comes from just a small town rookie hack who know nothing about drywall.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Brocktologist said:


> IMO when the sun shine through a large window you will always see the joints and even where you spotted the screws unless you skim coat or texture the surface.
> May be I'm just too picky and can see everything therefore I think everyone else can see it too. It's a lot like the "when are you finally done" thread. But it is of my opinion if you want smooth walls you need to skim coat them.
> Now you can and will hide a lot more of it if you roll or backroll the primer and paint compared to just spraying it on.
> This all comes from just a small town rookie hack who know nothing about drywall.


Drywall when done properly, which includes proper priming and painting does not need to be textured, I agree that if you want a slick finish on the walls and ceilings they should be skimmed.

If you don't skim coat a ceiling or a wall properly and don't prime and paint them properly, they will flash, even if you do texture them, popcorn hides more flaws than most other textures, but IMO popcorn is a terrible ceiling finish.

Spraying and backrolling IMO is a better method than just backrolling.

Unfortunately standards have slipped quite a bit over the past 20-30 years and what was once considered bad work, is now acceptable, very few tradesmen actually take pride in their work.

It is amazng the crap work that is being done in tract housing as well as high end jobs and it isn't just the drywall work, it is most trades.


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## Classic Drywall (Jan 8, 2006)

Ok...why do we texture here in Michigan...?? It's cheaper for the builder and that is what they are looking for. Now as far as I am concerned I prefer a slick lid. I find the best way to get a good slick lid is first KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING and second we use RC1 Channel to help with framing issues and for house movement. We seem to get a lot less joints "popping" when we use the channel. We tape with an 8", bed with a 10", finish with a 12" and then check all joints to see if the are crowned or hollow and use a 14" knife for final clean up of all joints. Now all of this takes time and money, many builders don't want to pay for it and homeowners will accept texture, so guess what we do the most. To say texture is only used to cover "hacked" drywall work is just BS.

Joe....


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

bwalley said:


> Drywall when done properly, which includes proper priming and painting does not need to be textured, I agree that if you want a slick finish on the walls and ceilings they should be skimmed.
> 
> If you don't skim coat a ceiling or a wall properly and don't prime and paint them properly, they will flash, even if you do texture them, popcorn hides more flaws than most other textures, but IMO popcorn is a terrible ceiling finish.
> 
> ...


 

You think that maybe the quality has slipped because of a lack of talented drywallers???

I think it has slipped cause too many GC's have been watching "lets flip this house and get a perfect job done at half the price and in half the time" shows on tv.

The average house we do is around 250 boards, a garage, stairwell,bonus room, cpl of trays and a cathedral or too. GC's want it hung in 2 days and finished in 5. If you tell them thats not enough time, the reply is-You can't do that??? I got a mexican crew that can!!! 

The trim package will be deliverd on the second or third day your there (just so its there for the trim guy the second your done) and of course its all in the way.

Oh yeah, I got the tile guy coming in tomarrow, so you need to stay out of the bathrooms and kitchen, and yeah, he'll need the dining room to set up in.

No I don't think the cielings need slatted out with rc or 1x4, even if your willing to forego labor costs. besides that would add a day or so and my schedule is behind anyway, and besides the hardwood guy will be here thursday, and you need to stay out of those areas till he's done.

No I don't think we need to skim the walls or cielings (cause I don't want to spend any more money) I just want a level 5 for the price of a level 4, and the mexicans said they can do it just fine.

No I don't want you to prime and back-roll the house, cause I already got a bid from the painter and he said it don't need back rolling, he just sprays it in both directions and said the joints won't show that way. And besides, when I asked him he just said "no com-pren-day" 


I don't think the skill level has gone down at all. I think the market has changed and people want stuff done faster than it can be done correctly.
I continually tell GC's "I can give it to you right, or I can give it to you right now, but you can't have both. I sell a service and its your choice" Wer'e not even talking price here, GC's would rather have a 2nd rate job for the same price as a 1rst rate job, if you can meet their schedule. 

nuff said


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

The skill level has gone down. 

Most of the new guys are picking up trades with no training or the desire to learn more. 

I see guys in this business doing the same work over and over again for years with no new techniques being learned or improvements to their skills.


During the boom when we need workers I either looked at thousands of workers and companies to do business with. Small companies, large companies 5-50 years in business etc.

Some of these guys should have been shot on the spot for some of the work/butchering they were doing.


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## kgphoto (May 9, 2006)

Brocktologist said:


> IMO when the sun shine through a large window you will always see the joints and even where you spotted the screws unless you skim coat or texture the surface.
> May be I'm just too picky and can see everything therefore I think everyone else can see it too. It's a lot like the "when are you finally done" thread. But it is of my opinion if you want smooth walls you need to skim coat them.
> Now you can and will hide a lot more of it if you roll or backroll the primer and paint compared to just spraying it on.
> This all comes from just a small town rookie hack who know nothing about drywall.


Brock, 

Remember I am just talking about the need (or not) of TEXTURE. If they want a level 5 finish, then of course you need to skim it. No question that will be a better job. Of course even that will get a primer coat to even out the absorption.

What I don't like is those who are expecting a level 5 but only want to pay for a level 3 or 4.


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## coppa23 (Jan 20, 2007)

Hometown said:


> A homeowner called me to look at the smooth ceilings on a home I built this year. Many of the drywall joints are showing especially in the evenings when the light hits it just right. What has caused this and how do I fix it? Thanks for your help.


 

they should pre fill joints before they do tape!!!:thumbsup:

have fun now, you have to remove all tape and re done proper way !!:w00t:


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Capt-Sheetrock said:


> You think that maybe the quality has slipped because of a lack of talented drywallers???
> 
> I think it has slipped cause too many GC's have been watching "lets flip this house and get a perfect job done at half the price and in half the time" shows on tv.
> 
> ...


I am a high end remodeling contractor, not a spec home builder, I pay pretty good rates meaning High prices, yet many finishers or guys who claim to be finishers don't know what they are doing and it has nothing to do with how much I pay them or much time I give them.

They buy a set of Ames tools and think they are a finisher or dig there floor scraper looking tools out of there trunk once in awhile and they are a finisher, the guys I like the best are the ones who spend all their time telling me how great they are, now I tell em' to shut up and show me how good they are.

If I have a 600 board job, commercial, level 4 finish with a light knockdown, how much time do you think a 4 man crew should take?

I had them in there for 9 weeks (Hanging and finishing) and another week shooting the texture with a hand hopper, I told them when I hired them to use a truck mounted spray rig and not to use a hand sprayer, yet the job was terrible and they couldn't blame it on bad framers because they were the framers.

They didn't even fire tape it properly and thought it was Ok for gaps to be around the bar joists, I had to go around and fire caulk and fire tape it properly and these guys are supposed to be professionals, maybe I should start hiring mexicans instead of white guys.

Now I hire my own people to do it, and if they can't handle it or start crying, I send them home.


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

Wow this has become quite the pissing match. I know lots of framers that dont crown their studs, if you get 2 bad ones you can see that easy peasy later on. V-ing and Prefilling the joints should be common place. Like someone said earlier maybe its humps, how bad is it, we don't know, If the tape isn't showing and there isn't a line from the joint, considering this probably isnt a millino daollar home or this wouldnt be a problem, I would say prime it, then hit it with a swirl texture then a satin paint. I bet its a gloss now, so the satin would make a good difference. That would take like 4 hours of labor maybe, just some dry time.


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## Classic Drywall (Jan 8, 2006)

Wow..the drywall trade gets a few hacks in it, and ALL finishers are hacks. I'm not going to dwell on it but that is BS. One problem we have here in Michigan is with GM layoffs and what not lots of them are entering the drywall field for the fact of there is no licensing requirements, and it looks so easy on TV. But to sit here and say that ALL finishers are hacks these days is a joke. 

Now back to the topic at hand which I think was slick lids. Any one that has done more than two or three job knows that there are times when the joints on your slick lid will not go away, maybe bad joints, maybe bad paint don't know but that is how it goes sometimes. When we run into this we will pea coat our lids. Does anybody else ever pea coat ??

Joe...


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Classic Drywall said:


> Wow..the drywall trade gets a few hacks in it, and ALL finishers are hacks. I'm not going to dwell on it but that is BS. One problem we have here in Michigan is with GM layoffs and what not lots of them are entering the drywall field for the fact of there is no licensing requirements, and it looks so easy on TV. But to sit here and say that ALL finishers are hacks these days is a joke.
> 
> Now back to the topic at hand which I think was slick lids. Any one that has done more than two or three job knows that there are times when the joints on your slick lid will not go away, maybe bad joints, maybe bad paint don't know but that is how it goes sometimes. When we run into this we will pea coat our lids. Does anybody else ever pea coat ??
> 
> Joe...


I am sure there are some good finishers, I just haven't found them yet.


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## [email protected] (Dec 18, 2008)

Bwalley, maybe you should've used TAPERS to tape & Hangers to hang and Framers to frame. Not wanting to restart p***ing match, but there are good finishers out there but like the Cap'n said. No one wants to pay for a Level 5 but they damn sure expect it when the put cheap gloss on and the sun hits it. Wish I had a dollar for every ***wipe who pulled that crap on me. Slick Ceilings ought to be skimmed -- PERIOD. Since builders "can't afford" the Level 5 you'd think they couldn't afford the high sheen paint either but what do us drywallers know anyway. Again, no intent to offend but isn't fair to bag on the finisher if you got what you paid for. to original poster -- try lower wattage lighting if it only shows at night unless that would just be to easy.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Bwalley, maybe you should've used TAPERS to tape & Hangers to hang and Framers to frame. Not wanting to restart p***ing match, but there are good finishers out there but like the Cap'n said. No one wants to pay for a Level 5 but they damn sure expect it when the put cheap gloss on and the sun hits it. Wish I had a dollar for every ***wipe who pulled that crap on me. Slick Ceilings ought to be skimmed -- PERIOD. Since builders "can't afford" the Level 5 you'd think they couldn't afford the high sheen paint either but what do us drywallers know anyway. Again, no intent to offend but isn't fair to bag on the finisher if you got what you paid for. to original poster -- try lower wattage lighting if it only shows at night unless that would just be to easy.


When you hire a sub contractor that is a framing and drywall company, it isn't my responsibility to make sure he hires framers to frame, hangers to hang, tapers to tape and finishers to finish.

Beleive me the price I PAID was for a level 4 finish with a light knock down, I wanted slick walls but the client wanted knock down.

I have only seen a few people capable of level 5 finish, but the one guy I used to use is now running crews doing in house buildouts for a management company, so he is not available anymore and his partner went to the Sheriff's Dept. as a Deputy a few years ago, even though he made more money as a finisher, he said he likes being a deputy more.

Now I hire my own people and if they aren't any good, I send them packing.


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## [email protected] (Dec 18, 2008)

Point taken Bwalley and thanks for not taking it wrong. I am currently blessed with finishers who can do stellar Level 5 when compensated. In the past have had subs try to short the work but as spray all in-house I caught it and called them on it and they are now working(?) for someone else. even if job calls for acoustic spray, I require it finished for Knock-down as builder may sell the upgrade at last minute. Smooth ceilings are a separate deal though. I suspect the additional work and cost to do them right is what causes most homes to be textured today. In my market all but the highest end work gets textured ceilings and slick walls, but get an hour away form the city and its all KD walls and all. Hometown was vague about his problem so hard to dx. Might also be the pervasive attitude of builders in addressing such issues with HOs. Most are apt to give to much creedence to what many times is some very minor defect that can often be defended by the "workmanlike manner" clause in the contract. That means that if the house next door etc has same conditions it has to be accepted as is without remedy. We've probably all had that one (or more) HO who makes a federal case over a shadow etc. and demanded a remedy that exceeds the disease. We don't know if Hometown's house was shack or a mansion or what expectations he gave the HO as relates to such issues.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Point taken Bwalley and thanks for not taking it wrong. I am currently blessed with finishers who can do stellar Level 5 when compensated. In the past have had subs try to short the work but as spray all in-house I caught it and called them on it and they are now working(?) for someone else. even if job calls for acoustic spray, I require it finished for Knock-down as builder may sell the upgrade at last minute. Smooth ceilings are a separate deal though. I suspect the additional work and cost to do them right is what causes most homes to be textured today. In my market all but the highest end work gets textured ceilings and slick walls, but get an hour away form the city and its all KD walls and all. Hometown was vague about his problem so hard to dx. Might also be the pervasive attitude of builders in addressing such issues with HOs. Most are apt to give to much creedence to what many times is some very minor defect that can often be defended by the "workmanlike manner" clause in the contract. That means that if the house next door etc has same conditions it has to be accepted as is without remedy. We've probably all had that one (or more) HO who makes a federal case over a shadow etc. and demanded a remedy that exceeds the disease. We don't know if Hometown's house was shack or a mansion or what expectations he gave the HO as relates to such issues.


I pay my subs very well, unfortunately many of them can't or won't finish drywall properly no matter how much you pay them.

Since you have good guys keep them happy.:thumbsup:

I agree some homeowners have unrealistic expectations as the GC I am the one who ends up dealing with it, also many times they have no idea what a job done right looks like and I will make the subs or my employee's to the job to my satisfaction.

On one job a sub used a peice of extruded super gutter that had a bad spot in it, they knew about it since I pointed it out to them, I left and when I came back I saw they used it anyway, I told them to replace it, they asked the Homeowner if it was OK, she felt obligated to go along with keeping it.

When I later spoke to her about it she said they asked her about it, I told her that I told them to replace it and I didn't care if she thought it was acceptable to her, it wasn't acceptable to me and it was going to be changed out.

I explained to her that the subs worked for me and they are not to ever go around me and try to get the client to over rule me. 

Normally I would fire the sub in that case, but Scott had his crew change it, they were too lazy to call for another piece to be brought out, I would have brought them one, but they were in a hury, the metal cost them about $400, plus 1/2 a day for 2 guys to change out.

I have had other subs try to do an end run around me to my client, and they never get hired again.

Whenever I bring a new sub on my jobsites, I explain to them how it works, most of them understand it, the ones who don't, don't come back.


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

Which malcontent afforded the cannines an avenue of egress ??

Wer'e finally talking about the problem, rather than trying to blame it on someone.

I've been doing drywall since the mid 70's and when there is a problem, I can look at it and tell you what caused it and what it takes to fix it. Not all of us are hacks, okay??

What I find in 99% of all cieling problems (excludung hacks, okay?) is painters spraying primer and NOT back rolling it. Heres the low down.

1) rolling creates a texture with the knapp of the roller, which breaks up the differance between paper and joints. Sparying does not do this. (I spray it on and have a helper back roll it as we go)

2) spraying only (no back roll) "captures" the dust lines and stands up the little fuzzies that the paper inherantly has on it. This "creates" a differance in the paper vs the joint that even sanding the primer coat before the second coat of paint will NOT remedy.

3) painter refuse to acknoldge this, and maintain "IF its finihed right,, blah blah blah". (if you talk to them enough about it, you will find that they don't want to pay someone to roll behind the sprayer) Simply try this sometime, you don't have to take my word for it. This is why level 5 has become a factor these days, somehow the differance between paper and joint MUST be reconcilled.

The houses that I finish AND paint, I have no problem with (not saying that sometimes I don't miss something, even I'm not perfect, okay?). I got into painting some years back because of this one reason. Painters says its my fault, I say its his fault. The GC said "okay then how do we fix this problem" I said, "Let me paint your next house, or just prime it for you, and I'll SHOW you who's fault it is."

It really is that simple, but its so much easier to blame it on the finisher than it is address the real problem. I mean, after all, wer'e all hacks, and we all will screw over you if we get the chance, and of course you have the painter to look out for you, and as we all know, they are all perfect and totally honest. right?


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## Muddauber (Nov 2, 2007)

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy


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