# How do other General Contractors Estimate?



## MonsterCon (Sep 13, 2015)

I have been for years working with the pencil & paper but I would like to find a simpler solution. I know many contractors are switching over to estimating software but it seems like a lot of faith into software.

Are you still double checking the pricing to make sure you don't take a bath on the jobs?

I just have a huge concern. I have seen people take serious losses but even as I get older I can't help but to notice how fast things change...

Thank you,
John


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

I would think most contractors are using excel. I'd be more worried about doing a paper estimate than an excel estimate, but obviously you need to be comfortable in excel.

One the things that always amazes me is when a contractor can't step back, look at his estimate and be able to tell if he has the scope covered. I don't mean, "did I miss a door or two?" I mean, "did I miss a floor?"

If you're estimating plumbing for a 2,000 sf house and your bid is $5,000 but that last 10 you did were $10,000...there's probably a problem there. But I still get bids that make no sense from subs.


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## Jason Laws (Aug 13, 2015)

I still sit down and figure everything out, with a price list while building the job in my mind (ouch!). I don't really know what everyone else does but this is what works for me. I don't want to miss any details and I don't know how software will take eveything into account. But I am sure that it works for some people.


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

I use my fingers. For the bigger jobs I wear flip flops so I can use my toes too


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I know what I am trying get some hour for my time. As time goes by I know what my sub are too,maybe not exactly but I know what a days job for some one costs me OK r what a couple of days cost me......that helps a lot


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## TimberlineMD (Jan 15, 2008)

I use estimating software. I account for everything. The SOW is hundreds if not thousands of items. It takes time. 24-40 hours for a house, depending on it size and features. It's the only way I know to be sure everything is accounted for. No easy solutions. I get paid for this process. 

I will give broad SF dollar amounts to pre-qualify, but they must pay for a detailed SOW for contractual numbers.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I still do it with pencil and paper, off my checklist. 

After 100 homes, or several hundred thousand feet of concrete, or thousands of ICF blocks, I will be close, within 5% of actual costs every time. But this doesn't happen without a history of doing it. 

For instance, since plumbing was mentioned, I count openings, waste line only, and use a multiplier....add the multiplier again for every upstairs bath, and maybe $1000 for a sewer tie in. Fixtures are always a budget item, meaning I give the client a number to stay within to keep the budget, and if they go over, it is on them. 

HVAC is like $4500 a ton, single story, heat pump, $500 less for gas or electric heat, and double for geo. Easy as that. 

Concrete slabs are $6.25 and footings are so much a foot. Brick has a number, and so on and so on.

Framing packages are $13 a sq/ft typical, and special roof lines and framed second floors push it to $17, and this takes care of trim as well. 

I rough out an estimate in an hour on a 4000 sq/ft home. The checklist has a slot, and that slot has a value. I know Excell would be the way to do this, by why change now?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I'm with Jay, I do it on paper, everything is a formula. I will put it in excel when done just to check my math and save it electronically...too much paperwork and files in the old days.

On any project I can be so close without making 1 phone call on what the cost is. But that is years upon years of doing this, having previous records to refer to when needed.


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## hrdwrkr (Aug 11, 2015)

timberline.....SOW?? please enlighten


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

I made a simple word document with various scope of work, sub trades , and a few simple formulas to calculate everything at the end... put all the numbers in when done click one button for total, click another button to add overhead cost click another button to add profit margin and got my total... Very simple, accurate and everything is covered.:thumbsup:


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## TimberlineMD (Jan 15, 2008)

hrdwrkr said:


> timberline.....SOW?? please enlighten


SOW=Scope of work.


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## hrdwrkr (Aug 11, 2015)

greg where in jersey??.....im in toms river


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## Tashler (Mar 4, 2006)

I believe he's in the Princeton area? Where are you?


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

hrdwrkr said:


> greg where in jersey??.....im in toms river


Yes, Princeton area


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## _xyz (Oct 28, 2015)

greg24k said:


> Yes, Princeton area


Another Princeton area guy here


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## Kinglingasaur1 (Nov 14, 2015)

Spread sheets. Chech and recheck. Build it as you break down each and every aspect of the project.


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## JDCOLLUM (Dec 3, 2015)

If anyone is interested I design Program in Excel have several almost ready they will do takeoffs and estimating etc. would like some input. I'm retired Contractor may need some beta testers and some input as to exactly what your needs may be and try to fulfill them.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Excel (actually google drive).

I always just copy the last one and fill in all the lines. Lots and lots is guessing. With remodels I don't know exactly how much work will need to be done. But it's like the Price is Right. At this point, I'm just really good at it and I can generally guess what my subs will cost and how much self performed work everything will take.

The spreadsheet just makes the math easy and accurate, and spits out nice totals for allowance items, self-performed work (the bid fixed price portion of my contracts), and profit.

Been doing it this way since I started WAY back in 2007.

I learned spreadsheets in Junior high math, and it has been one of my most valuable skills.


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## AaronM (Nov 14, 2015)

I've got a giant spreadsheet with tasks on it with quantities that I fill in. Been working on it for years... delete everything that I don't use and format it for printing.

It's a pretty good solution, but relies on what's in my head... so if I get hit by a bus or something, someone else would have to either start over or do a lot of head-scratching to figure it out.

At the end of the day, I think we'd be better off with a dedicated program that is easily teachable to another person.


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## _xyz (Oct 28, 2015)

JDCOLLUM said:


> If anyone is interested I design Program in Excel have several almost ready they will do takeoffs and estimating etc. would like some input. I'm retired Contractor may need some beta testers and some input as to exactly what your needs may be and try to fulfill them.


I'll give it a shot. I went out on my own fairly recently, so I'd be glad to test it out for you.


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## _xyz (Oct 28, 2015)

What about when you guys were starting out? Did you just do a lot of guesstimating and mold your spreadsheets from there? 

On another note, I'm always getting small add-ons, which trip me up as far as pricing. Just yesterday, a client asked if I would install a set of attic stairs in their garage. I said sure. I looked it up on one of these homewyse-type sites for a baseline and they were listing low 700's in my area. That's not the number I would have thrown out. Anyone know of a decent source of estimating that smaller stuff? I recall a while back Barnes and Noble carried an orange book with a ton of stuff in it, but not anymore.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I am working on a spreadsheet for bathrooms. I started with the shower and realized how complicated my job is just trying to think of every screw and widget and time to order, deliver, install, rollup...

I have most of the shower stuff complete, no working on adding tubs, floors and other items.

When I get it a bit more honed I will post in the doc share thread.


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## Philament (Dec 9, 2014)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am working on a spreadsheet for bathrooms. I started with the shower and realized how complicated my job is just trying to think of every screw and widget and time to order, deliver, install, rollup...
> 
> I have most of the shower stuff complete, no working on adding tubs, floors and other items.
> 
> When I get it a bit more honed I will post in the doc share thread.


This would be nice to see. Not for the numbers, but just to see others methods of work to fill in the holes of my own abysmal estimating spreadsheets.


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## TimberlineMD (Jan 15, 2008)

The 'Craftsman Software' has tasks broken down into time measurements, which I use quite often. I find it pretty close on that score. I do use my own labor dollar amounts though.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I am working on a spreadsheet for bathrooms. I started with the shower and realized how complicated my job is just trying to think of every screw and widget and time to order, deliver, install, rollup...
> 
> I have most of the shower stuff complete, no working on adding tubs, floors and other items.
> 
> When I get it a bit more honed I will post in the doc share thread.


Sometimes too complicated is just as bad as trying to estimate by square footage.

I have 15-20 line items for kitchens and baths. Quite a few more for bigger projects.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

This thread got me wondering how well I really did at the end of the year. My income is 95% of what my expected income per job is. That extra 5% includes insurance, licensing, tools. Way better than I expected.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

As long as they don't chew the subs down to win the bid .. I don't care how they estimate !


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## _xyz (Oct 28, 2015)

I'm pretty sure I'm not making what I could/should be. I'm still a newbie as far as going out on my own. Of course it doesn't help that the guy I worked for was retired at 43 with a pension check every month so I doubt he was charging what the next guy was.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Golden view said:


> Sometimes too complicated is just as bad as trying to estimate by square footage.
> 
> I have 15-20 line items for kitchens and baths. Quite a few more for bigger projects.


I just can't see it. A shower alone has more than 15-20 items.

Backer material
Backer fasteners
Backer shimming materials
Backer seam material
Niche structure material
Pan material(s) - fiberglass, acrylic, tiled (Schluter, barrier free)....
Drain materials
Curb material
Knee wall caps
Glass
Field Tile
Border Tile
Thinset
Spacers
Leveling system
Waterproofing
Plumbing rough
Plumbing trim
Tile edge (bullnose, schluter....)

Then you have to calculate the surface area, number of walls, wall dimensions.

And that is just material let alone calculating labor. Every shower is different, having it's own construction nuances and installation times.

Not being that precise leads me to underbidding and praying that I break even.

The part of estimating that gets me is calculating the same things over and over with different sizes. If I can make a spreadsheet that takes that hour long process down to a few minutes, it's worth building that spreadsheet.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I just can't see it. A shower alone has more than 15-20 items.
> 
> Backer material
> Backer fasteners
> Backer shimming materials


Seriously? You might as well have a line item for each tile. OCD can be expensive.

Kidding aside, I do probably save some line items by making things like tile and grout an allowance item. I make a guess, it's usually close, and I get reimbursed no matter what it costs. Customer is educated about how this works and how different types of layout can effect the price.


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## JDCOLLUM (Dec 3, 2015)

If anyone is interested I design Program in Excel have several almost ready they will do takeoffs and estimating etc. would like some input. I'm retired Contractor may need some beta testers and some input as to exactly what your needs may be and try to fulfill them. Contact me at [email protected]


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

JDCOLLUM said:


> If anyone is interested I design Program in Excel have several almost ready they will do takeoffs and estimating etc. would like some input. I'm retired Contractor may need some beta testers and some input as to exactly what your needs may be and try to fulfill them.


You really should change your account to an SP or Vendor account. I would also suggest removing your email from the post.


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I made one a while back that has about 30 line items from 1 being permits, 2 office, 3 site protection, demo, excavating, foundation, finish masonry, rough carpentry, finish carpentry all way down to 30 for clean up. Then I have 7 columns. Notes, task, materials, labor, sub contract,taxes, totals. My raw number tally up across, and my numbers going down the columns get tallied with a mark up. I can see it well that way.

I certainly dont always need all of these phases construction for all projects so I leave the areas blank that dont apply. I put notes and captions in the cells and I will highlight areas where I waiting on something so I remember. It works for me. I also made a pile of estimating work sheets that have numbers to match the tasks. They are organized take off sheets. I seldom use them these days though a pen and paper do the job.


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## _xyz (Oct 28, 2015)

Prior to getting to the point of creating your own spreadsheets, did you find any of the estimating books or software like RS Means or the craftsman books useful?


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

The craftsmen books and RS doest work for me, I see that as more usually in commercial doing individual phases. If I used it in residential I would be sky high.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

_xyz said:


> Prior to getting to the point of creating your own spreadsheets, did you find any of the estimating books or software like RS Means or the craftsman books useful?





Tom M said:


> The craftsmen books and RS doest work for me, I see that as more usually in commercial doing individual phases. If I used it in residential I would be sky high.


I'll glance at RS Means to get an idea about unit pricing, but not so often these days, as I know my own pricing pretty well.

The thing about RSMeans is that it's unit pricing. Let's say the price per foot of crown is $100. That's only potentially useful in a whole-house or multi-house project. On a small project, the variable costs are entirely outweighed by the fixed items - going to the supplier, planning, etc. I'd never make RS Means a firm basis for a quote.


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## WebCon (Dec 11, 2015)

*Accurate Estimates With Cheap Tech*

Here's my secret sauce though to closing more jobs... I use eSignatures to sign my quotes. I text or email the customer a link to quote and they eSign on their phone. I closed more jobs this way by being a little tech savy. I use Saydoc b/c they have a free plan.

Oh and for estimating, I use Excel so I don't make any stupid calculating errors. The rest you guys know how to do...


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## _xyz (Oct 28, 2015)

CarpenterSFO said:


> I'll glance at RS Means to get an idea about unit pricing, but not so often these days, as I know my own pricing pretty well.
> 
> The thing about RSMeans is that it's unit pricing. Let's say the price per foot of crown is $100. That's only potentially useful in a whole-house or multi-house project. On a small project, the variable costs are entirely outweighed by the fixed items - going to the supplier, planning, etc. I'd never make RS Means a firm basis for a quote.


Yeah that would not help me. I'm okay at stuff like a bathroom renovation, but it's the smaller things that jam me up. My client asked me to install a set of attic stairs in the garage and to plywood the space above. As dumb as it sounds, I had no idea what to quote him. I used homewyse (cringe) and redbeacon (cringe) for a general idea and went from there.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I just can't see it. A shower alone has more than 15-20 items.
> 
> Backer material
> Backer fasteners
> ...


A lot of those items can be combined. I don't separate fasteners from backing materials. I just add a box of nails or screws to the backer price.

What throws off the tile equation is the variety of tile and design. Multiple tile pieces, picture frames, herringbone design, multiple sprayers or control valves (and appropriate hole saw), walking distance to the saw,......forget white 4 1/4" there are so many variables.

A buddy keeps asking me for a price list. Why? There isn't a big enough list to include all the different things you do in a year. Send me the drawing and sample tile. I'll bid from there.


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## Philament (Dec 9, 2014)

olzo55 said:


> A lot of those items can be combined. I don't separate fasteners from backing materials. I just add a box of nails or screws to the backer price.
> 
> What throws off the tile equation is the variety of tile and design. Multiple tile pieces, picture frames, herringbone design, multiple sprayers or control valves (and appropriate hole saw), walking distance to the saw,......forget white 4 1/4" there are so many variables.
> 
> A buddy keeps asking me for a price list. Why? There isn't a big enough list to include all the different things you do in a year. Send me the drawing and sample tile. I'll bid from there.


Part of me agrees, but can't all of these variations just be factors (i.e. multipliers) against a base price? I believe charimon posted once that he has went all to unit pricing. 

As for the detailed list, I can see how it may seem OCD, but in another sense it gives you a bill of materials so that you don't have to remember anything when you're at the store. I guess this is more of a problem for people like me who are generalists and don't have stock of all of the miscellaneous items. Helps me to be better organized, but it does cause a lot more overhead for estimates that you don't end up getting.


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