# PM, Man Days, and Water Level?



## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

I figured 17 man days over an upcoming siding project estimated by my PM....who, as far as I can tell has little hands on experience. He's a story teller and even though no one in this company has ever witnessed any exhibited carpentry skills he supposedly picked up in Louisiana we doggedly hear..."when I was in Lousiana...." 

We met Friday to compare man days...Our biggest difference is in Layout, skirting/water table, and sheeting around existing window casings. This is a crooked early 1900's cottage with a 30'x81' foot print with numerous jogs and 100 years worth of shoddy remodel attempts, and additions. Fiber cement with wood trim. 

In an attempt to make himself look like a journeyman he proceed to say..."when I was in Louisiana we always did layout with a water level, they're more accurate than lazers.....oh (to the company owner....) remeber when I eyeballed such and such and I was right, rember this, remember that....." before I knew it the whole conversation had been hijacked and I'm left trying to make up 17 man days and I'm offered a water level to make up time!

So, (sorry for the marathon post).... Does anyone recommend using water levels for layout? Chances are we'll end up ignoring our benchmark anyway and we'll cheat our way through as usual....I'm already doomed unless things go perfectly, which they never do. 

Thanks to some threads here I've been taking extensive notes so I can explain time delays...hopefully, I'll be able to cover my ass when I'm asked the inevitable...."What's taking so long?"


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## TempestV (Feb 3, 2007)

as far as I know, the main advantage of a water level is that it is cheap compaired to a builders level or laser. it can also find benchmarks when obstructions block the view of both points from the same point, for example, finding benchmarks on opposite sides of a wall or opposite ends of a building. 

in my experence, water levels are slow and time consuming to set up and to use, but invaluable in the right circumstances, like I listed above, or if you dont' happen to have a builders level or laser handy. if you can sight everything with a builders level though, it will usually be much faster, and you don't have to deal with storing and handling a water level.

as far as accuracy, they are both just as accurate, unless you have a crappy laser or builders level, or you leave bubbles in the water.


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## petermichael (Apr 13, 2007)

*Geeze*

I feel for you having to deal with an aparent glory hog (remember when I spotted an out of level condition and I was right. etc. ) 

The plumb bob and the water level used to be the kings, and the only way to do their perspective deeds. I had a senior master verbally defile me over using a plumb bob one day and I totally looked at the whole mental process differently. Production. Use whatever is needed to accomplish the task properly - the quickest. 

It is for this reason that there is no comparison for the carpenter between the lasers or the water level. Water takes longer to set up and much more difficult to raise or lower if desired. Lasers usually have dials to do this built in.

The little 100.00 lasers available today are more than adequate for all purposes IMO, with several exceptions. Commercial work, where rooms are the size of a whole house, and ceiling grids. In those cases you need a good rotator. But I have used a little 79.99 laser to do whole house siding, deck posts & ledger, cabinets, shelves, floor levelling, trim. And I am an idiot about making it perfect. The phrase "it's in the bubble" has no meaning to me.

Keep on your toes, don't come off like a hater, and if this guy is resting on laurels that are false, he will eventually fall off his pedestal. (Then take him outback, lay him on a 4x8 ply panel, nail his clothes to the ply with about 50 roofing nails and then stand him up behind the building):w00t:


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## PA woodbutcher (Mar 29, 2007)

WNYcarpenter said:


> I figured 17 man days over an upcoming siding project estimated by my PM....who, as far as I can tell has little hands on experience. He's a story teller and even though no one in this company has ever witnessed any exhibited carpentry skills he supposedly picked up in Louisiana we doggedly hear..."when I was in Lousiana...."
> 
> We met Friday to compare man days...Our biggest difference is in Layout, skirting/water table, and sheeting around existing window casings. This is a crooked early 1900's cottage with a 30'x81' foot print with numerous jogs and 100 years worth of shoddy remodel attempts, and additions. Fiber cement with wood trim.
> 
> ...


I worked with one of those "we used to do it this way" guys as a PM......drive on and do the best you can do eventually the boss pulls you in and asks what's going on. If he doesn't, go talk to him....it's his business that the PM will run into the ground with all his misses. As far as the crooked little shack..be careful as you can't always run true and make it look good. Where are people going to notice where the siding runs off? If you run the siding level and the window isn't it really looks like he!! when you have an 1 1/2" on one side and 1/2" on the other. All part of the remodeling trade and takes time, the boss has to realize this. JMHO


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## keepitstraight (Nov 12, 2006)

*agree*

pawoodb is right, if the house is crooked you have to go to reveal. am working on a new house - milllion plus - and they never did a soil survey. as a result a portion of the breezeway sunk. two guys tried to run the interior t&g level, and it was about 1 and 1/4 inches high on the south side. it looked like hammered rat doodoo. i took it off and ran it to reveal, and surprise! looks great. 

out here they call it polishing the turd. you can only do it so long before it smears.


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

I can side a crooked piece of SH** and make it look nice....the problem I have is I'm given man days by a guy who can't!! 

I wish I could characterize my PM....It's literally a joke:w00t: He shows up with a cell phone plastered to his ear and only acts like a boss when he's with the owner....I like the guy, but he's worthless! He's been with the company for over 15 years and keeps his job because he's the owners lackey! Essentialy,his job is to collect time cards, deliver paychecks, and figure billing summaries under the ruse of PM. 

We started today....he never even gave the water level a thought. He'd already forgotten and won't remember unless I remind him.


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## keepitstraight (Nov 12, 2006)

*pm's*

i know what you mean, this pm on this job has been schizoid to say the least. i personally get along with him, but i get along with almost everyone. my motto is i try not to be the worst part of anybody's day.

i just finished the second 2X12 bookcase i was supposed to start in october. my wife and i put up the t&g aspen in the hip section of the third floor (of course over the stairs and dramatic opening to the breezeway. lovely scaffold sets) we were interrupted about three times, but that was probably the most condensed series of tasks i've had. the concrete was the most because it was with winter coming in. 

i've worked with this guy before and like i say i like him, but now find out he is a fundamentalist (where's the fun, where's the mental?) who doesn't think women have brains so he was unintentionally insulting to my wife who is smarter than the both of us.

my son drove a mixer truck for the better part of six years and helped a lot on many jobs, has concrete buddies he's worked w/weekends,etc. he was trying to get the bossman to put expansion joint between retaining walls and the bossman refused. the other side he did it when some "pros" just went ahead and did it one day. don't ask why he insisted on #4 rebar on 14 inch centers. 14, not a typo. talk about increasing your labor to tie off, and material cost to not do #5 at 24o.c.

you're always getting pulled off because you have to wait for someone to come back and finish something they should've done earlier and now you can only go so far. my big mistake was not working w/wife & son as a team. just assumed my relationship would be duplicated. no way. son implying a better way to do it was verboten! not openly, but when we got back to trim and finish, my son became the scapegoat for spray issues. so i am machining and sanding boards at 32 bucks/hour (wouldn't have gotten that if i didn't literally save the house from falling down from a bad point load and the second firestop in the chimney. )

wouldn't it make sense to have my son do that at only 16 bucks while i fit the curved base, or trim out the beams? i figure if i had some lower pay help, the tasks i have been assigned so far (that i've had to complete myself) would have cost at least one third less, been done at least as well, and been done two months ago. am i wrong? seems that a helper makes stuff go at least twice as efficiently. 

this is just iceberg tip. now he is trying to get me to help him build a spec home for these same owners. i am tactfully figuring how to increase the no-ness can't do it.


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## hrscammisa (Mar 9, 2007)

The only time I seen them use a water level was on T-bar celing back in the 80s its all laser now


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## WNYcarpenter (Mar 2, 2007)

We started this project last Wednesday. We're ready to layout tomorrow....PM knows this, but no further mention of a water level:no:. I already have our builder's level en route without even bothering with the water level! :laughing:


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## tcleve4911 (Mar 26, 2006)

Use the method that you are used to using to make the project come out correctly. If he insists on the water level, request that he sets the benchmarks because you are not being paid to learn a different method.

I used to be a PM - Hated it..............


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