# Ownership of valuable scrap materials?



## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

If I create an ITB for a project but omit the ownership of valuable removed materials and bid submissions do not stipulate what happens to the ownership of the removed materials, do I get to say "by the way, the removed condensing units and evaporators are not to leave the premises" after the binding bid is received or is there something specific in UCC/construction law that stipulates "implied ownership" of valuable scrap to contractor? 

I know that if its not explicitly stated in bid, contractors like to leave materials that cost money to dispose, so I think there's no such thing as automatic implied ownership that lets the contractor conveniently leave behind trash, but take home treasure. 

i.e. the ITB would be something like 
"furnish 10-ton 25 condensing units and matching evaporator. Recover refrigerant from existing install into owner furnished recovery container for later use in owners' equipment. Furnish labor to disconnect existing units and properly install new units using existing line set. capacity/warranty/efficiency shall be blah blah blah"

If the project creates worthless scrap that costs money to dispose (i.e. ballast replacement and relamping) then obviously, DISPOSAL will clearly be spelled out in ITB, otherwise, there will be a ton of scrap left behind on the premise. 

I'm thinking, by omitting what happens to valuable scrap, someone will bid assuming they get to keep scrap, but lacking legally valid implied ownership, I get to say they can't take it after their bid is accepted and that difference will realize savings for me.


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## Jaf (May 10, 2010)

I get the jist of your post. Make sure it's spelled out in the contract somewhere, somehow.

I can see the problem.

If while digging you uncover a pile of sh*t, who does the customer thinks owns it?

If while digging you uncover a jar of money, who does the customer thinks owns that?


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

i sometimes get people who tell me they want the scrap i tell them to strip it


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Jaf said:


> I get the jist of your post. Make sure it's spelled out in the contract somewhere, somehow.
> 
> I can see the problem.
> 
> ...


I believe the law would say they belong to customer either way.

I'm sure customers say:

crap is contractors', treasure is mine

contractor would say
crap is customer's, treasure is mine

Really the point is to omit something that may lead to a lower bid without adversely affecting me while specifically spelling out things that would have adverse impact on me.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Electric_Light said:


> I believe the law would say they belong to customer either way.
> 
> I'm sure customers say:
> 
> ...


So you would purposely leave things out so you can legally screw over the contractor?


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

mudpad said:


> So you would purposely leave things out so you can legally screw over the contractor?


That's not screwing anyone over. I don't expect them to haul 1,000 lbs of PCB ballasts for nothing nor do I expect them to leave with 25 condensing units as part of the deal unless stipulated. In the former, I'll spell it out if I'd like it to be part of the same bid. 

It's the responsibility of bidder to ask questions first and bid accordingly. If you don't ask questions and assume you're bound to get yourself into trouble.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Electric_Light said:


> If you don't ask questions and assume you're bound to get yourself into trouble.


Yeah, especially working for people like you. You obviously are not looking for long term relationships with your contractors. 

I've done work for your type before. Will try to avoid it in the future.


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

mudpad said:


> Yeah, especially working for people like you. You obviously are not looking for long term relationships with your contractors.
> 
> I've done work for your type before. Will try to avoid it in the future.


Since when did you come to the idea that its fair to automatically assume ownership to any valuable project byproduct, but conveniently not automatically assume responsibility for undesirable ones?


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## A. Spruce (Aug 6, 2010)

Always stipulate in your contract that all removed materials will be disposed of by you, unless intended to be reused on the job. Your pricing should reflect disposal fees for everything removed from site, regardless if you're recycling or not.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Electric_Light said:


> Since when did you come to the idea that its fair to automatically assume ownership to any valuable project byproduct, but conveniently not automatically assume responsibility for undesirable ones?


 That is not my point. My point is that you are talking about purposely leaving something out of your ITB that you know should be included for clarity. You stated that you want the contractor to assume he has salvage rights, so that you get a lower bid, and then tell him you have salvage rights after the bid. That's a screw over. 

I went back and read several of your previous threads, this seems to be a theme with you. Why would you come on a contractor forum and talk about screwing over contractors?

Regardless, I would absolutely assume that we had to do cleanup and disposal on any job whether specifically spelled out in the contract docs or not. 

I would assume salvage rights if it wasn't spelled out, but I would clarify before bidding. I would also assume that on your seven figure projects you have a pre-bid meeting, and anyone who was counting on salvage value should be asking questions at that time if it is unclear in the specs. 

Probably what would happen if this still wasn't clear, the contractor would yield because it wasn't worth it, and you would win. Or, he might sue you and then the courts could sort it out.


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

mudpad said:


> I went back and read several of your previous threads, this seems to be a theme with you. Why would you come on a contractor forum and *talk about screwing over contractors?*


Depends on what you define as CONTRACTORS. Those who submit bids, as well as those who solicit bids are equally contractors that often have opposing interests.

Generally, you can't make the pizza bigger, so the battle is about how to claim the biggest portion or how to give away the smallest portion given the same work.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Electric_Light said:


> Depends on what you sell CONTRACTORS. Those who submit bids, as well as those who solicit bids are equally contractors that often have opposing interests.


SO apparently your are a GC screwing over your subs. We work with our subs as a team so that we can all make a decent profit.


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## Elyrain (Dec 17, 2007)

If it's not in the contract, and it's a significant enough amount, you'll spend more $ on legal fees and in arbitration then the scrap is worth. 

I hate GC's that beat down subs? You do realize that a guy like you could BK a small contractor because of a "technicality" in your business practice. That contractor has a family just like you do.


The problem I have with this topic is that you are purposefully trying to get a sub to underbid and then tell them FU, u signed the contract. If you stated your intentions of the valuable scrap before hand, it would be a non issue if they didn't read it.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

This should, and usually is, spelled out in the bid documents. How else would a guy know what he has to get rid of. This applies to residential, commercial & public works jobs. 

Electric_Light, why are you on this forum?


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Being that i'm a plumber and scrap is a daily occurance I have had this issue come up several thousand times.

It's simple, two rules apply here.


Be honest and upfront, that means from the initial planning stages all the way until the they see the tail lights disapearing into the sunset.
Make your money by hard work
If your a carpenter make money swinging a hammer, if your a plumber make money by connecting pipe etc etc etc.

Anything else is juvenile


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Being that i'm a plumber and scrap is a daily occurance I have had this issue come up several thousand times.


So when the scrap right is not stipulated in ITB, do you specifically ask?

Have you submitted a bid without doing it and if so, what happened in the end?


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## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

I don't own the scrap, I don't want to own the scrap, and I will not own the scrap.

Nothing in my bid revolves around anything scrap. If they want me to move scrap and allocate my resources to organize scrap then I make money on the resources I supplies via labor to deal with the scrap.

I make my money plumbing and by eliminating scrap from the menu my GC's know I can ALWAYS be trusted. My GC's also know my feelings about scrap when I bid, they know darn well that Mike's Plumbing has NOTHING to do with scrap, period, end of story.

All scrap does is create conflict......just like this thread. On a jobsite it's a disease.

I scrapped 13,000 worth of med gas copper from a Veterans Hospital...per the GC and the hospital administrator. They gave it to me and the guys as a good will gesture for working in a crawlspace for a month in 140 deg stagnent air.

We decided to take it and every employee from every possible position found out and it created so much friction I vowed to never do it again.

Scrap as means of a profit is such a bad idea I would rather not have the job. 

Mike


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## Bob Kovacs (May 4, 2005)

Electric_Light said:


> So when the scrap right is not stipulated in ITB, do you specifically ask?
> 
> Have you submitted a bid without doing it and if so, what happened in the end?


If I was submitting a bid that involved the replacement of your so-called "valuable material", and I had intentions of scraping that material for case, I'd state in my bid that "all removed material will be disposed of off-site", so as to avoid confusion. If there were PCB-laden ballasts, bulbs with mercury in them, etc., involved in the project, I'd also be clear as to what I planned to do (or not do) with those items as well.

I've learned over 20+ years in the construction industry, much of it in commercial contracting, that stating what you exclude is as important- or more important- than stating what you include in your bid. There's always some d-bag owner or GC looking to stiff you wherever he can, and the only way to survive in this business over the long term is to be very clear- in writing- regarding everything.


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## DPCII (Mar 14, 2010)

Removing it or not, the owner is still the owner - and that is whoever owns the property and/or improvements there-on.

I am confused if the OP is a sub or GC in this case, but anyway; in general terms, the GC contracts with the owner and that contract will stipulate removal of waste, debris, etc.

The bid documents and any bid should contain language that stipulates removal of waste and debris. Absent such language, the job-site still belongs to the GC, and they ultimately assume all responsibility. A sub should not just "assume" that they can take scrap, absent language to the contrary. If this is a large project with a formal bid process, there should be requisite Q&A process that can easily resolve this.

When I ran RFP for a donut franchise, occasionally we would have to demo old buildings. As we paid disposal by weight, we "usually" worked with or GC's in bringing in scrapping crews that would take anything of value. For the GC's scrapping was not worth the effort, and for us it reduced our demo cost.

As for the OP, I think you will find business goes better when you try to work WITH your GC's and/or subs, rather than trying to screw them by thinking you can get fancy with omissions in bid docs. Don't be short sighted, business is built on reputation and relationships.


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> If your a carpenter make money swinging a hammer, if your a plumber make money by connecting pipe etc etc etc.
> 
> Anything else is juvenile


That's close minded. I don't want to be in the trade that I actually have to do physical work that involves me personally getting dirty, but that doesn't mean there isn't work in contract related work.


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## mudpad (Dec 26, 2008)

Glad you saw the error of your ways on the deliberate ommission thing:thumbup:

I think most of the contractors here are doing single family residential renovations and new construction. A few of us are doing public and commercial work where low bid pretty much trumps all, but on projects where the construction documents are complete and clear so there is no question about "apples to apples" comparisons.


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