# Carpenters and setting nails



## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

smalpierre said:


> My carpenter fills the nail holes to stay on good terms with the painter :whistling


I could care less what the painter thought of me. I'm not doing his job to stay on good terms unless he deposits money in my bank account.

And, I think most of you are going to extreme: no carpenter worth anything would leave an abundance of nails needing to be set, especially if they're using a gun. You just don't get to that level if you have poor craftsmanship. I think everyone will leave a few: hit a hard spot in the wood, air pressure low, etc. When I work, I fall into a rhythm of sorts, regardless of what I'm doing. Having to set an occasional nail standing proud would break that rhythm and slow me down. I still think it's the painters job to go through and properly set the nails to whatever meets the painter's needs for a beautiful finish. 

And having the carpenter fill the nail holes is just a total waste of resources in my opinion. He might as well sand and finish so the painter is really happy.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

jb4211 said:


> I could care less what the painter thought of me. I'm not doing his job to stay on good terms unless he deposits money in my bank account.


Indeed, and he does! :thumbsup:



jb4211 said:


> And, I think most of you are going to extreme: no carpenter worth anything would leave an abundance of nails needing to be set, especially if they're using a gun. You just don't get to that level if you have poor craftsmanship. I think everyone will leave a few: hit a hard spot in the wood, air pressure low, etc. When I work, I fall into a rhythm of sorts, regardless of what I'm doing. Having to set an occasional nail standing proud would break that rhythm and slow me down. I still think it's the painters job to go through and properly set the nails to whatever meets the painter's needs for a beautiful finish.


Yeah, if my nails are starting to have to be set, I'm checking my air. You never know when some idiot unplugged the compressor for some reason :blink: EDIT: Usually it was that good for nothing painter ...



jb4211 said:


> And having the carpenter fill the nail holes is just a total waste of resources in my opinion. He might as well sand and finish so the painter is really happy.


He does that too, but the painter isn't really happy until the check clears :whistling


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Well just fire yourself. You can always hire yourself back on Monday.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

Or, the breaker trips - seems like a common occurrence. lol


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Leo G said:


> Well just fire yourself. You can always hire yourself back on Monday.


I fired myself Thursday this week - but I'm on strike until my Florida move is complete


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

jb4211 said:


> Or, the breaker trips - seems like a common occurrence. lol


Yeah that was usually that idiot carpenter! What am I gonna do with these guys - they drive me nuts GAHHH!!!


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

jb4211 said:


> I could care less what the painter thought of me. I'm not doing his job to stay on good terms unless he deposits money in my bank account.
> 
> And, I think most of you are going to extreme: no carpenter worth anything would leave an abundance of nails needing to be set, especially if they're using a gun. You just don't get to that level if you have poor craftsmanship. I think everyone will leave a few: hit a hard spot in the wood, air pressure low, etc. When I work, I fall into a rhythm of sorts, regardless of what I'm doing. Having to set an occasional nail standing proud would break that rhythm and slow me down. I still think it's the painters job to go through and properly set the nails to whatever meets the painter's needs for a beautiful finish.
> 
> And having the carpenter fill the nail holes is just a total waste of resources in my opinion. He might as well sand and finish so the painter is really happy.


So if he shoots a nail that doesn't go through at all or shoots a double nail is the carpenter going to leave that bent nail for the painter to pull and replace or will the carpenter take a pair of pliers, pull the nail and reshoot? I've seen carpenters that fill their nails holes, they did because they didn't think the painters did a good enough job filling and made their woodwork look like crap.

I don't get it, it's fine for the painter to lose rhythm but not the carpenter?


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

avenge said:


> So if he shoots a nail that doesn't go through at all or shoots a double nail is the carpenter going to leave that bent nail for the painter to pull and replace or will the carpenter take a pair of pliers, pull the nail and reshoot? I've seen carpenters that fill their nails holes, they did because they didn't think the painters did a good enough job filling and made their woodwork look like crap.
> 
> *I don't get it, it's fine for the painter to lose rhythm but not the carpenter?*



Hell, we all know painters ain't worth more than $15/hr. That'd be like a nickle holding up a dollar:laughing:


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

Well I do both on our jobs, trim and paint. Personally I always set nails at the trim phase, not the paint phase. I never get pissed at myself when I'm painting and missed a trim nail cause I'm doing it either way... :laughing:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Like it or not. You are near the end of the line, and you get to fix crap. Just like when I go to install a kitchen I have to deal with bowed 2x4s, out of square corners, un plumb walls, drywall or taping issues, floors that are neither flat or level and trim that has been hung out of plumb/level.

I don't like it, it sucks. Makes my job go a lot slower. But guess what? I have to deal with it and make it look perfect. And guess what, so do you.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

pinwheel said:


> Hell, we all know painters ain't worth more than $15/hr. That'd be like a nickle holding up a dollar:laughing:


I wish my painter would work for that - then I could give my carpenter a raise!


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Leo G said:


> Like it or not. You are near the end of the line, and you get to fix crap. Just like when I go to install a kitchen I have to deal with bowed 2x4s, out of square corners, un plumb walls, drywall or taping issues, floors that are neither flat or level and trim that has been hung out of plumb/level.
> 
> I don't like it, it sucks. Makes my job go a lot slower. But guess what? I have to deal with it and make it look perfect. And guess what, so do you.


That's dealing with normal issues, I won't be fixing all those, you deal with them. Little different than actually having to fix them.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

avenge said:


> That's dealing with normal issues, I won't be fixing all those, you deal with them. Little different than actually having to fix them.


If I'm working on someone elses job, and I've got to fix something - tweak this or that, set a few nails, yada yada - I just do it.

If it's really excessive I take pics, send it to the guy in charge, and ask if he wants me to fix it (for a fee), or if he'd like to send the other guys back in (for free) ...

If it's every other nail something's wrong. If I'm having to close up huge gaps in miters - somethings wrong. If the trim guy nailed all the windows shut ... something's wrong.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

So setting a nail is fixing something? Pulleeze. Like I said, if you go into a room an there are a few unset nails you set them. If 40% of the nails need setting then you *****. Get a spring punch for under $20 and when you see the unset nail take the 6 seconds and set it.


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## Robinson_Cnst (Jan 5, 2012)

Imo a carpenter that leaves his nails for the next trade to set is just sloppy. 
So if the painter misses a spot should the carpet layer touch it up as well?


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Robinson_Cnst said:


> Imo a carpenter that leaves his nails for the next trade to set is just sloppy.
> So if the painter misses a spot should the carpet layer touch it up as well?


I agree as a carpenter. As a GC, I realize painters ***** no matger if its 3 nails or 100. My carpenters set nails very well, but the few they miss, the painter can get. You dont like it, get a new trade. :laughing: 

If its a lot, like very many at all, I jump someones ass and tell them to set their damn gun right and get a nail set and fix it. :thumbsup: I catch it before the painter comes if it is many at all. Any GC who doesn't isnt checking nail patterns or dossnt give a chit.


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## fjn (Aug 17, 2011)

While nails standing proud are obviously problematic,they can be corrected with a nail set. The thing that will ruffle my feathers every time are over driven fasteners and nails missing or "nicking" the framing member. 


Go back after nailing and back out missed nails. The over driven fasteners can only be corrected by adding additional nails.

Unfortunately,nailing off sheating is usually delegated to the lowest skill level guy on the job. It is the closest thing to a monkey with a machine gun.


This essay talks about the ill effects of over driven fasteners.



http://timber.ce.wsu.edu/Resources/papers/P81.pdf


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

smalpierre said:


> If I'm working on someone elses job, and I've got to fix something - tweak this or that, set a few nails, yada yada - I just do it.
> 
> If it's really excessive I take pics, send it to the guy in charge, and ask if he wants me to fix it (for a fee), or if he'd like to send the other guys back in (for free) ...
> 
> If it's every other nail something's wrong. If I'm having to close up huge gaps in miters - somethings wrong. If the trim guy nailed all the windows shut ... something's wrong.


Speaking of gaps in miters, when I worked for a painting co. years ago I was painting a remodeled bath. On my last day there the HO comes to me and says what about the gaps in the miter joints and #2 pine the carpenter used as finish wood? I told the HO I filled the gaps and filled the imperfections in the wood, that's your carpenter's low quality work. He got pissed. I call my boss and tell him the HO is blaming me for the carpenter's work. My boss says it sounds like I'm causing a problem, I quit on the spot.

I fix other peoples crap all the time on remodels but not when I follow those people or when they are still on the jobsite. I once followed a hardwood installer putting up base. They left every nail on the last boards unset right where or in front of where my base went. No way I was going to set all those nails, call the hack back.


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

pinwheel said:


> Maybe I won't like doing what someone else was supposed to do, but I'll probably not utter a word about it to anyone, cause at the end of the day, it was probably one of the smallest problems I had to solve that day.


Exaxtly


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

Leo G said:


> Like it or not. You are near the end of the line, and you get to fix crap. Just like when I go to install a kitchen I have to deal with bowed 2x4s, out of square corners, un plumb walls, drywall or taping issues, floors that are neither flat or level and trim that has been hung out of plumb/level.
> 
> I don't like it, it sucks. Makes my job go a lot slower. But guess what? I have to deal with it and make it look perfect. And guess what, so do you.


Exactly again


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## carzie (May 21, 2013)

I've come across this numerous times, if it's a nail here and there who cares, we all miss something and no body does perfect work no matter what every one thinks. Job 1 for me is to make the customer happy because I want repeats so I fix it. If it starts to get to be too regular or if it looks like the carpenter doesn't care, jb4211:whistling, I fix his neglect and don't work for him again.

I can make any carpenter look good:laughing:


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

carzie said:


> I can make any carpenter look good:laughing:


My stepdad is ... idk what you'd call him, project manager on huge industrial and commercial projects.

Anyway, a painter said to him "A good painter can make a bad carpenter look like a good one" :laughing:


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## m1911 (Feb 24, 2009)

A couple of proud nails here or there happens. But it's the carpenters job to do a neat job and not leave shiners, and minimal extra work for the painter . I had a painter pissed off at me because he said I used too many nails and left too many holes for him to fill. I used my standard nailing schedule on the casings which is usually every 12-16 inches. He was expecting a couple of nails in each casing leg! Lazy fvck just didn't want to do _his_ job and fill the nail holes.


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## 91782 (Sep 6, 2012)

smalpierre said:


> My stepdad is ... idk what you'd call him, project manager on huge industrial and commercial projects.
> 
> Anyway, a painter said to him "A good painter can make a bad carpenter look like a good one" :laughing:


"As a carpenter
I will do my best,

Caulk and paint 
will do the rest"

(And the choir sang AMEN)


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

m1911 said:


> A couple of proud nails here or there happens. But it's the carpenters job to do a neat job and not leave shiners, and minimal extra work for the painter . I had a painter pissed off at me because he said I used too many nails and left too many holes for him to fill. I used my standard nailing schedule on the casings which is usually every 12-16 inches. He was expecting a couple of nails in each casing leg! Lazy fvck just didn't want to do _his_ job and fill the nail holes.


You'd think a pro would understand that there are industry standards to perform a professional job ... lazy fvck!!!

How long does it take to fill nail holes in some casing???


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## NCMCarpentry (Apr 7, 2013)

Charge to include setting nails if its an issue with a particular company... What does this take? 5 minutes extra maybe 10? Have a talk with the lead about it too. Leaving the nailheads sticking out isn't an option. Makes both you and the carpenters look bad!


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

NCMCarpentry said:


> Charge to include setting nails if its an issue with a particular company... What does this take? 5 minutes extra maybe 10? Have a talk with the lead about it too. Leaving the nailheads sticking out isn't an option. Makes both you and the carpenters look bad!


Depends on the job. If you've got to go over every bit of trim in a 5000 sf house setting 100 nails per room before you even start it could take some time.


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

Robinson_Cnst said:


> Imo a carpenter that leaves his nails for the next trade to set is just sloppy.
> So if the painter misses a spot should the carpet layer touch it up as well?


Of course he should! Why wouldn't he?


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

smalpierre said:


> My stepdad is ... idk what you'd call him, project manager on huge industrial and commercial projects.
> 
> Anyway, a painter said to him "A good painter can make a bad carpenter look like a good one" :laughing:


" a little caulk and paint make a carpenter what he ain't! " said some dude


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Man, wtf. In 15 years of primarily custom work, never seen a lot of nails needing set in interior trim. Usually siding is the issue. Thats why my carpentry is inhouse.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

avenge said:


> I agree but the OP makes it sound like it's more than a couple nails. As a carpenter I know it's easy to miss unset nails, as a painter it can become annoying. If a carpenter SEES he just shot an unset nail he should set it.


Thinking back on when I used to do trim I would never leave a proud nail even though it meant I'd have to stop, drop the gun ,get the nail set, set the nail or get the nips and pull the nail, etc. and there were plenty of times when it was the last thing I wanted to do. I always, well almost always, looked at where I'd nailed as I worked along and dealt with any issues that arose.
If the painter is supposed to keep his eyes open for them shouldn't the person who just put them in be held to the same level of awareness?


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Jaws said:


> Man, wtf. In 15 years of primarily custom work, never seen a lot of nails needing set in interior trim. Usually siding is the issue. Thats why my carpentry is inhouse.


Yeah me too. The trim guns generally set a nail pretty dang good.

I've never understood why when I paint a house I find so many proud nails on siding. Some of them 1/4" out, and a painter has blobbed some caulk on it and called it good.

When I'm hanging siding and a nail doesn't set all it takes is a whack of the hammer to flush it up. One guy I know blind nails with the framer, but face nails with a 15 ga. trim nailer. After paint it looks like it's only blind nailed. I just don't trust those nails on exterior.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Well before nail guns we hand drove finish nails and all the rest.

Carpenters set their nails. The few odd balls that were proud, the painter set...and DID not *****....

Near as I can tell it is still this way.....

If a painter bitches......well he's down the road....:laughing:


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

griz said:


> Well before nail guns we hand drove finish nails and all the rest.
> 
> Carpenters set their nails. The few odd balls that were proud, the painter set...and DID not *****....
> 
> ...


I know some whiny cry baby painters for sure.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

griz said:


> Well before nail guns we hand drove finish nails and all the rest.
> 
> Carpenters set their nails. The few odd balls that were proud, the painter set...and DID not *****....
> 
> ...


Didn't you guys used to have to forge your own nails on site back in the day? :laughing:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

smalpierre said:


> Didn't you guys used to have to forge your own nails on site back in the day? :laughing:


Yea, waiting for that dam mule train was a joke....:thumbup:

and overnight by Pony Express...get real..:laughing::laughing::whistling


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

griz said:


> Yea, waiting for that dam mule train was a joke....:thumbup:
> 
> and overnight by Pony Express...get real..:laughing::laughing::whistling


You're a trip Griz :laughing:


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

NCMCarpentry said:


> Charge to include setting nails if its an issue with a particular company... What does this take? 5 minutes extra maybe 10? Have a talk with the lead about it too. Leaving the nailheads sticking out isn't an option. Makes both you and the carpenters look bad!


Painters get absolutley killed by while youre at its and itll just take a couple minutes. 

Some of the things on a typical job expected for free

Move furniture
Clean windows
Exra colors
Extra coats
Watch and control pets
Pick colors
Repaint colors chosen by the client theyre not happy with


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Only if you let them. Sounds like it's time to update the contract

Furniture will be moved or an hourly fee will be incurred, initial here.


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

If it's just a few I set them, if it's an ongoing problem I will speak to the GC. I get along with my GC's and usually find they had a new guy or something and the problem is solved.


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

Had a talk with builder and carpenters just said "Hey ain't we all on the same team?" Everybody agreed so I take that as they'll watch and take care of it!


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

In my opinion , the carpenter should have enough pride in his work not to leave it for the next guy. Nail the trim, finished with the area, check you own work, Done with that rooms install. chalk, file, cleanup, Move on.

I'm not the painter, But, it's not his job to check my work.
So, he catches his hand or finger on a nail and starts bleeding all over the place.
Who cleans the mess then.

Sorry, for the rant. JUST MY OPINION, ON MY JOBSITE.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

His blood.


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

Leo G said:


> His blood.


But, Who's fault?

Let's just say between installing trim, and painter showing up, Homeowner cuts his hand or one of his kids does.

Now Who's fault is that. We all know homeowner's check everything, and don't listen to the "stay out rule"


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## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Damn, I swear some of you guys are trying to sort fly chit from pepper.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

jaydee said:


> But, Who's fault?
> 
> Let's just say between installing trim, and painter showing up, Homeowner cuts his hand or one of his kids does.
> 
> Now Who's fault is that. We all know homeowner's check everything, and don't listen to the "stay out rule"


Painters fault for wiping his hand over the nail. Should have seen it. Do you do stuff without looking and expect it to not bite you in the azz 100% of the time?


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

pinwheel said:


> Damn, I swear some of you guys are trying to sort fly chit from pepper.


I never heard that expression before. Kinda funny


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

84 posts and nobody managed to set the nail?:whistling


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## JesseCocozza (Aug 20, 2011)

There's a reason they sell the spring loaded nail sets... 


...At the paint store.


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

JesseCocozza said:


> There's a reason they sell the spring loaded nail sets...
> 
> ...At the paint store.


For the painters to bail out the lazy carpenters ,


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Frankawitz said:


> Had a talk with builder and carpenters just said "Hey ain't we all on the same team?" Everybody agreed so I take that as they'll watch and take care of it!


No that means ,"set the nails bitzch."


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

hdavis said:


> 84 posts and nobody managed to set the nail?:whistling


Its easier to complain for half an hour.


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## eastend (Jan 24, 2006)

let's take it a step further.
Should a carpenter leave a gouge in the wood,for the painter to deal with- or should it be patched before the painter gets it?

I was always told that the carpenter ( or cabinetmaker) should fill everything before he/she hands it off, but that the finisher or painter still needs to prep and catch any misses before doing his/her thing.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

Kindergarten rules. If you make a mess clean it up. If you break it fix it. Discreetly eat your boogers, if noone saw you eat it only you will know.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Ok fine I'LL set the friggin nails!!! Is everybody happy now?


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## jaydee (Mar 20, 2014)

yes


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

No, not really. The damn framing isn't right and it's screwing up the sheetrock which makes trimming a pain.


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## smalpierre (Jan 19, 2011)

Leo G said:


> No, not really. The damn framing isn't right and it's screwing up the sheetrock which makes trimming a pain.


I'll fix that too ...


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## pdmig (Nov 21, 2010)

AWI standards state that on prefinished trim the installer is to fill the nail holes. On everything else the painter is expected to fill the holes. It is the installers responsibility to set the nails in all cases.


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## Fender (Jul 22, 2013)

Metro M & L said:


> Painters get absolutley killed by while youre at its and itll just take a couple minutes.
> 
> Some of the things on a typical job expected for free
> 
> ...


So true. My cousin is a painting contractor, and when he first started he got killed on a job by not stressing number of colors in his contract. (I had told him to just run with 2 colors on most bids as a leaping off point) The homeowner ended up with like 8 colors. So not only did he lose on paint, but that's a lot of extra time. Guess what's in every contract he rights up these days...


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