# Flooring Issue



## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Installing over well bonded ceramic/stone can and has been done for years. We do it here in situations where it logistically or financially makes sense. Think occupied condos in the winter. Sometimes the sheer amount of noise, dust, and debris make it a job killer. Ardex FF will bond to tile better than thinset will.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

I would not take the job....


Cob job.....IMO 


The existing flooring Should be ripped out and then the HW flooring installed properly.....or "grass" in your case..


Your putting your faith in what your going over - should something go wrong - guess who they will be calling.,,,,...: NOT the contractor that installed the original floor that yours is over....


Either it gets installed properly where I feel it will stand the test of time or I won't install it-period...... customers that want to just "go over" just to save money (from my eyes) they have a flashing red light attached on top of their head ......."I'm cheap- and i want you to be responsible for my decisions" 



JMPOV,


B,


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Ya know I used to miss the point of Chuck's rants about pride. I always thought it was just him being an *******. Either I'm becoming a bigger one myself, or I'm starting to get it now. I used to think there was only one way of doing something too. God help anyone who disagreed either. I realize now that a lot of the time that was pride talking and I didn't want to admit my lack of experience or knowledge of a subject. Just my thoughts....


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

No one on here will convince me it is a better idea to add a subfloor to carpeted areas, pour slc over old tile, and glue a bamboo floor over the whole shebang. Especially in a kitchen. Seriously? I love following guys like this on estimates, I can sell my way every time. 
What's your sales pitch, it's cheaper? Because I know it cant be that its technically superior.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

ArtisanRemod said:


> No one on here will convince me it is a better idea to add a subfloor to carpeted areas, pour slc over old tile, and glue a bamboo floor over the whole shebang. Especially in a kitchen. Seriously? I love following guys like this on estimates, I can sell my way every time.
> What's your sales pitch, it's cheaper? Because I know it cant be that its technically superior.


I never said that. Read my posts then read them again. There are times when going over ceramic makes sense. To know when that is is the difference  also if one can't tell whether or not tile is bonded and if it's suitable to be gone over - by all means sell it your way. Just know guys like that have lost jobs to guys like me because I can get the job done. Riddle me this: if the tile is bonded how does the floor fail and how is your way superior other than elevation change? Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking you just asking you to think.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

*Either it gets installed properly where I feel it will stand the test of time or I won't install it-period*

Upon what is this based other than stupid prejudice? Where is the tile going and why? My position on this is based on the fact that I put the customer's well being first. Nothing else matters to me. Back when I'd never done anything but install, I'd insert my own prejudice into these sorts of decisions. Not any more. It's only flooring.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

I wonder if any floating wood floor ever "stood the test of time"? (Whatever the hell that means.)


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

* I always thought it was just him being an *******. *

You were right. hehe


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

What that means:"test of time"= longevity........


$+/time......



B,


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

PrecisionFloors said:


> I never said that. Read my posts then read them again. There are times when going over ceramic makes sense. To know when that is is the difference  also if one can't tell whether or not tile is bonded and if it's suitable to be gone over - by all means sell it your way. Just know guys like that have lost jobs to guys like me because I can get the job done. Riddle me this: if the tile is bonded how does the floor fail and how is your way superior other than elevation change? Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking you just asking you to think.


I hear you. I know it's possible. I also know that budget often dictates the course you take. My point was that the plywood subfloor addition adds cost. Floor leveler adds cost. You're assuming the tile is set correctly. The dishwasher has the room, the fridge has the room, the doors may need to be cut, and then you will have reducers wherever the new floor abuts old. I recently pulled a stacked kitchen tile floor for a client in a wheelchair, his wrists to weak to push up a transition strip. 
You know as well as I do the right way to do this, and I guarantee I can get the cost close if not the same because of the system I have for pulling old floors. My job would be superior.


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

Personally I would sell pulling the tile. Why? Because: 1. I make great money doing dustless tile demo. 2. I hate trying to install sheet plywood in finished homes. 3. I hate working with glue and finished products. 

I just thot i would throw this in to pad my post count.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

So you put your own interests ahead of the customer's.

There is a name for that.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

*What that means:"test of time"= longevity........*

Gibberish. The fact that you won't defend your position reveals its weakness.

Where is the tile going? Tile is a "life of the structure" installation model. You might as well say you won't install over existing framing members.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

I believe it's called "covering your ass & your reputation"



B,


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

No. It's called masturbating at someone else's expense.

It's predation based in fear and ignorance. Lose lose.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Someone needs a hug..........





B,


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

ccoffer said:


> So you put your own interests ahead of the customer's.
> 
> There is a name for that.


Yes it is called business. 

Being that both methods produce acceptable results. That I can have the tile out in a couple hours vs the 1/2 day to run to the store and get plywood and then install it, it is less time to remove it. Plus I have less door height issues. But yes it is all about me, they hired me to handle this task so I will handle it in any way I want. If i dislike doing a project a certain way it is totally my choice not to. I am not bound to slavishly do things because others think it is the "best way" or the way their uncle, brother, man on the forum does it. Note my reasons for my choices were purely personal preferences, not because one way was unsound.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

charimon said:


> Yes it is called business.
> 
> Being that both methods produce acceptable results. That I can have the tile out in a couple hours vs the 1/2 day to run to the store and get plywood and then install it, it is less time to remove it. Plus I have less door height issues. But yes it is all about me, they hired me to handle this task so I will handle it in any way I want. If i dislike doing a project a certain way it is totally my choice not to. I am not bound to slavishly do things because others think it is the "best way" or the way their uncle, brother, man on the forum does it. Note my reasons for my choices were purely personal preferences, not because one way was unsound.


We did a tile removal in kitchen bath laundry last week..approx. 550 sf

took 3 guys 2 full days,,this to pull base tile cut out from around cabinets.
then we had to go down another 3/4 plywood to original subfloor.

fixtures had to be pulled appliances disconnected etc


needless to say it was 3000 in labor and dumpster and I shoulda charged more but made it on other areas..

I have yet to a couple hour tile removal unless ita complete crap install or a 50 sf job.

hit some lathe or mud job..avoid damaging cabinets..chisel out corners under toekicks..trim out with shoe or quarter round etc to cover material and gaps..on and on.

its a big job no matter the size and never a couple hours


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Answer the question. Where is the tile going and why? Are you going to pull an entire condo of tile out on the 14th floor and dispose of it (quietly mind you) in a couple of hours? Are you familiar with the laminating process? It's used in the construction of many things. Care to take a guess why?


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

So ccoffer if you got the call for that job, that's the way you would sell it? I guarantee that customer didn't call asking for that procedure, he sold it to them.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

I am familiar with feeling good about what I am proposing to do for a customer.



And you should do what ever it is that makes you feel good about what your proposing....




It was JMPOV.......:blink:



B,


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

PrecisionFloors said:


> Answer the question. Where is the tile going and why? Are you going to pull an entire condo of tile out on the 14th floor and dispose of it (quietly mind you) in a couple of hours? Are you familiar with the laminating process? It's used in the construction of many things. Care to take a guess why?


Omaha dosn't have any condos on the 14 floor


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

charimon said:


> Omaha dosn't have any condos on the 14 floor


Humor me.


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

ArtisanRemod said:


> So ccoffer if you got the call for that job, that's the way you would sell it? I guarantee that customer didn't call asking for that procedure, he sold it to them.


or maybe he told them they need to demo cart etc and 
homeowner.

"OMG that sounds expensive and messy.
can we do something else that wont be so involved?"= cheaper?


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

jamestrd said:


> tile removal in kitchen bath laundry last week..approx. 550 sf
> 
> took 3 guys 2 full days,,this to pull base tile cut out from around cabinets.
> then we had to go down another 3/4 plywood to original subfloor.
> ...


How many sq ft was the op's tile and how much was the op's carpet cover? 550 sf taking you six man days - you are removing 13 sf an hour. There are much more efficient ways to do that. 550 sf even on mud bed should be less than a day for me and a helper but then again I will bet you would crush me setting wood flooring.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

ArtisanRemod said:


> Theres a good chance the guy will bury the dishwasher...


Yep. I've done a few remodels starting in a kitchen with a stainless or white refrigerator and range, and an avocado dishwasher, installed in 1983, imprisoned by 5 layers of flooring.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Tell you what I'll give you another scenario. 2700sf home, slab on grade, 18" very hard porcelain tile throughout, very well bonded. Homeowner wants engineered wood everywhere but bathrooms. They have a week of open time to schedule the job and the wife is hypersensitive to dust. What do you do?

That scenario is almost exactly my own home so it exists. I installed the tile so I know it's bonded. When my kids are gone in 10 years or so I will go with wood. Let's say I had become disabled and invited you out for a measure and you are looking to hit me with a demo cost of $4k for no other reason than pride.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

*Yes it is called business. *

No. It's called theft.


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

Sleep well, brave little soldier.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

You say I would be doing it for pride.....


I say I would be doing it to cover my ass and my clients investment...


We just don't agree about this.....


It's ok...


No sense beeting a dead horse,..write..:blink:


Peace....


B,


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

I love how these discussions go (as Jackie Gleason would say) BOOM, Straight to the moon, Alice!!

So much testicle. So little frontal lobe. So much to prove...to strangers.

I'm more guilty of it than anyone else. I still find it odd.


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

Epic0428 said:


> The contractor in question is adding 7/16 osb in the areas where there is existing carpet to bring the FF level up to match the existing tile. He is then putting a masonry type skim coat over the existing ceramic tile (18x18).


There is no sq ft on how much carpet vs tile,

I based my statements on a hypothetical, carpet 700+ ft and the tile 150 sf, as that is usually what I find in most first floors here. My cost for each is a wash thus it is no theft to make my choice since Ii would charge about the same to do either. Now you may have read it differently but I garontee that you always have your best interests in mind for your profession other wise you would have been out of this business long ago.


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

PrecisionFloors said:


> Tell you what I'll give you another scenario. 2700sf home, slab on grade, 18" very hard porcelain tile throughout, very well bonded. Homeowner wants engineered wood everywhere but bathrooms. They have a week of open time to schedule the job and the wife is hypersensitive to dust. What do you do?
> 
> That scenario is almost exactly my own home so it exists. I installed the tile so I know it's bonded. When my kids are gone in 10 years or so I will go with wood. Let's say I had become disabled and invited you out for a measure and you are looking to hit me with a demo cost of $4k for no other reason than pride.


There are no slab on grade homes here. Whole different ballgame. edit;Perhaps our preferences as to plan of attack are regional?


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

*
We just don't agree about this*

But only one of us offered substance to buttress their opinion.

See, I'm not one to give credence to bull****. If you have an opinion you can't defend, you don't have an opinion. You have a prejudice.

Ignorance is not a point of view.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

ArtisanRemod said:


> There are no slab on grade homes here. Whole different ballgame. edit;Perhaps our preferences as to plan of attack are regional?


Possibly so. 80% of the homes built after '95 or so are predominately tile. A good chunk of those are tile throughout - even bedrooms. If this discussion was about 150sf kitchen I wouldn't be in it. A few of you share the attitude that going over tile is never an option and is an inferior substrate to glue a wood floor to. I absolutely disagree and use logic, knowledge of physics, and common sense to support my position. So far none of you has offered anything to refute it but an opinion. That's ok. I'd just like to know what you're basing it on.


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

I don't trust someone else's work first of all,second I don't trust glueing wood over tile,,,,,,,

That's me,......


To ccoffer,..


I wanted to show you something,,,


I'm having some difficulty locating my smiley emoticon with the red light on top of his head that spins,,,,,,


Give me a minute,,,,he's pretty cool..


I think I have collected to many , they get moved around, ....last week I found that one under "insane emoticons".....



Silly me...




B,


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## jamestrd (Oct 26, 2008)

charimon said:


> How many sq ft was the op's tile and how much was the op's carpet cover? 550 sf taking you six man days - you are removing 13 sf an hour. There are much more efficient ways to do that. 550 sf even on mud bed should be less than a day for me and a helper but then again I will bet you would crush me setting wood flooring.[/QUOTE
> 
> so next time you can come on site and give us some pointers..this was a *****.
> 
> ...


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## ccoffer (Jan 30, 2005)

*I don't trust someone less work first of all,second I don't trust glueing wood over tile*

More gibberish. Trust? Like trust walking under a ladder or stepping on a crack?

Your ignorant superstition does not a credible standard make, Friend. Realize this, and the world is your oyster.

Best, 
CHU


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## ArtisanRemod (Dec 25, 2012)

PrecisionFloors said:


> Possibly so. 80% of the homes built after '95 or so are predominately tile. A good chunk of those are tile throughout - even bedrooms. If this discussion was about 150sf kitchen I wouldn't be in it. A few of you share the attitude that going over tile is never an option and is an inferior substrate to glue a wood floor to. I absolutely disagree and use logic, knowledge of physics, and common sense to support my position. So far none of you has offered anything to refute it but an opinion. That's ok. I'd just like to know what you're basing it on.


This will be it for me on this. I never said it never is an option,only that In my experience it is not a good idea. Tile here is set God knows how many different ways. I've seen it set straight to 3/4" plywood, over luan, over vinyl etc. etc. Usually when I get a call for a new kitchen floor it is because the tile is cracked and or the grout has come out. So that is why I would be leery to go over it.
Second, I do lots of these types of jobs. Kitchens as you know are a more involved installation than say a dining room. The floor height matters. So adding to it, to me is not always a good idea. Also, we have doorways leading to the basement. Pouring slc over tile on top of a nosing , so you can glue another floor not going to work, so you have to raise the nosing, which is against code, and more work. Then you have to cut the doors.
I like floors to be level. I think it looks better. If you're adding ply to carpeted areas, and stacking the floor in the kitchen, you're going to have a transition into the dining room, which around here, is wood, on top of the sub. I've seen some creative rehanging of baseboards as well. 
So thats it. I have no doubt you guys are capable of glueing bamboo to slc to tile, but I wont do it. I got called for that estimate based on a referral. And I will do what I know will come out right and look the best. And thats about it. Cheers


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

Superstition........!


Who told you I had the Tom Brady voodoo Doll,...have you been reading the NFL thread on here.....?.:blink:

I used it for the first half and it was working like a charm.....stuck the pins and needles in as specified in the instructions,,,,,,but everything stopped in the second half .......:blink: my hopes...my dreams....all gone :blink:



But as far as superstitious about tile,,,,,I would have to say no....:blink:


However- Football dolls - YES,:clap:



B,


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