# Do you need AFCI on service upgrade in NY?



## jimb317 (Apr 4, 2006)

I have to upgrade a 100a service to 200a. Do I need to protect the bedroom circuits with AFCI's? I am from NY state.


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## krthomp33 (Apr 4, 2006)

I would say yes. Since you are going with a "new" service, it will probably be required, but as always, check with the "Authority having jurisdiction".

It may also be required to do more than the bedrooms, as one inspector told me, "Any livable space required AFCI protection"


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## ATS (Jun 28, 2005)

I always upgrade to AFCI's when replacing a panel or upgrading a service. As far as I understand it, any bedroom outlet, smokes included, must be AFCI protected. I would do this even if the inspector did not require it because they're still using old books.


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

Look at these posts it will answer you question. :thumbsup: 

http://www.contractortalk.com/showthread.php?t=2366&highlight=service+upgrade


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

NO, you do not need to install AFCIs for a service upgrade. The above posts are OPINION only, and not based on NYSRBC facts.

The service has nothing to do with branch circuits, and AFCIs are only required for NEW branch circuits. Some areas do have a rule to install them for upgrades but NY is NOT one of them.


krthomp33,

_"It may also be required to do more than the bedrooms, as one inspector told me, *"Any livable space required AFCI protection"
*
_Is this an actual code in your area or does your inspector like to make up his own?


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Doesn't the 2005 NEC require that any panel or service uprade needs to also have AFCI's installed on all bedroom circuits now. A smoke detector is not an outlet, it is directly wired.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

fridaymean said:


> Doesn't the 2005 NEC require that any panel or service uprade needs to also have AFCI's installed on all bedroom circuits now.


 Absolutely not. A service upgrade does NOT affect the branch circuits. 
Local codes may differ.




fridaymean said:


> A smoke detector is not an outlet, it is directly wired.


 The box a smoke is connected to is most definitely an outlet. Read the definition of "outlet" in Art.100.


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## BIGRED (Dec 19, 2005)

Tell 'em Petey!


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

I have a question to all. In your area of the country is there any AHJ that requires a full or partial house rewire if the main service is changed? Common sense would dictate that you would try to talk the customer into having it done with the service change. I have fallowed up behind a lot of just service change overs where somebody is just out for a quick buck and doesn't want to deal with the rest of the house.


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## ATS (Jun 28, 2005)

fridaymean said:


> A smoke detector is not an outlet, it is directly wired.


Direct wired or not, it's still an outlet. An outlet is not a receptacle, although the terms are commonly confused. A box for a light is also considered an outlet.


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## ATS (Jun 28, 2005)

Speedy Petey said:


> Local codes may differ.


Exactly! Better contact your AHJ, local codes may be stricter than the NEC.


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## krthomp33 (Apr 4, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> krthomp33,
> 
> _"It may also be required to do more than the bedrooms, as one inspector told me, *"Any livable space required AFCI protection"
> *
> _Is this an actual code in your area or does your inspector like to make up his own?



The argument that I got was that the living room can be used as a bedroom, all they needed was a fold out couch, and it becomes a bedroom.

I argued for about 20 minutes, but let the inspector have their way. Better to maintain a good relationship, than to piss of the inspector!!


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

CE1 said:


> I have fallowed up behind a lot of just service change overs where somebody is just out for a quick buck and doesn't want to deal with the rest of the house.


 See, now I almost take exception to this statement. How can you possibly say someone who does "just" a service upgrade is out for a quick buck???

A service upgrade is one of the bread and butter jobs in our trade. Of course we try to get more work out of doing one, but to suggest a whole house re-wire because of a service change is most times ludicrous. I guess most houses you do service changes on are POS fix-er-uppers. Most of the ones I do are perfectly fine with electrical systems in good shape, they just need a new service. Of course many need an extra circuit in the kitchen or bathroom, etc, which we would all try to have the customer do, but this does not even come close to justifying a complete re-wire.
Then there are the complete gut reno's with a service _and_ re-wire.

Just MHO.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

krthomp33 said:


> The argument that I got was that the living room can be used as a bedroom, all they needed was a fold out couch, and it becomes a bedroom.


 What a comletety LAME argument! A LR is a LR and BR is a BR. Look at the definitions in the building code book.




krthomp33 said:


> I argued for about 20 minutes, but let the inspector have their way. Better to maintain a good relationship, than to piss of the inspector!!


 If he cannot show it to me in the code book it doesn't get done. I guess this is my stubborn German side coming out.
I guess I am lucky to have inspectors with common sense and who are reasonable. It is distressing to hear about so many who are on power trips and make up their own personal requirements.


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## theman (Dec 25, 2003)

*Electrical upgrade*

Speedy you are right BUT (i'm opening a can of worms)
when you do an electrical upgrade a permit is required N.Y.S. Code


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Actually an inspection is required, a _permit_ is not...in most areas. 
I have heard of some small municipalities that do require a building permit to do a service change.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

The box a smoke is connected to is most definitely an outlet. Read the definition of "outlet" in Art.100.[/QUOTE]

....Then I guess EVERY inspector in EVERY munincipality in the Chicago land area has to reread article 100. There was one inspector that was going to require us to put the smokes/cos on an arc fault, but rethought it. And this town is STRICT they require sprinkler systems in all new housing. We have never been required, or even asked, to put smokes on an arc fault.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

_*NEC 100
Outlet.* A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
An example is a lighting outlet or a receptacle outlet.


_
A smoke is utilization equipment, is it not?


I'm not saying your inspectors are right or wrong in requiring smokes on AFCI. In fact I think it is ludicrous to have smokes on AFCIs. 
I *am* saying they are wrong in thier interpretation if they are saying a box a smoke is attached to, and fed from, is not an outlet.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

I agree with you speedy, it is dumb. The main intent or AFCI's and why the local enfocement officers have been pushing for them, results from the number of fires in bedrooms that were caused by improper use of extension cords, or just "equipment" with a cord. Too often cords get abused and they fray, or the ends go bad.


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## ATS (Jun 28, 2005)

Sprinkler systems in all new homes?! Good lord, what's next, the government forcing their citizens to buy health insurance? Oh yeah, that's already starting. I would think if any area mandated smokes be on arc faults it would be Chicago, that's surprising.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Don't forget, Chicago is much more likely to burn than any other city in the nation. Or at least they think so.
I'm surprised they still allow wood as a building material.


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## jbfan (Apr 1, 2004)

Where I am if it is in the bedroom, it is connected to the Arcfault. I tell people to put them outside the bedroom instead.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Code, for the most part, around here is: somke in every bedroom (which is any room with a door and a closet, like a study, library, den, etc.) and smoke/CO within 15' outside of every bedroom. Smoke on every floor of the house. CO on any level with a fossil-fuel burning appliance, and somke/CO "near" any furnace. ALL INTERCONNECTED. 

Houses are getting more and more expensive and it is not the trades' fault, it is the AHJ's fault.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Alot of the "Chicago" problem is the grasp the trade unions have. (no complaint on my part) That is why emt is required in most counties in the Chicago metro area. I would never complain about the "extras" we have to do here, because I am sure elsewhere they have different local issues they contend with. I have one more skill that the average homeowner could "do himself" to save a buck, but will take him 3-4 times longer.

I hear in CALI they are building homes with steel framing. Not here...


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## theman (Dec 25, 2003)

*NYS DOS Question and Answers*

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

RESIDENTIAL CODE New York State Dept Of State

Q. Does the residential code require footings to frost for all buildings?

A. No. §RR403.3 entitled "Frost protected shallow foundations" provides that for buildings where the monthly mean temperature of the building is maintained at a minimum of 64ºF (18ºC), footings are not required to extend below the frost line when protected from frost by insulation in accordance with Figure RR403.3(1) and Table RR403.3.

EXCEPTIONS:

1. No foundation not so protected may be attached to frost-protected shallow foundations.

2. Unheated garages, porches, utility rooms and carports shall not be permitted to be attached to dwelling units with a frost-protected shallow foundation. Materials used below grade for the purpose of insulating footings against frost shall be labeled as complying with ASTM C 578.

Q. Can the required emergency egress from habitable space in a basement exit thru the garage?

A. No. §RR310 requires that emergency escape and rescue openings be provided from basements with habitable space and every sleeping room. The definition of the phrase "emergency escape and rescue opening" is an operable window, door or similar device that provides for a means of escape and access for rescue in the event of an emergency. §RR310 permits window wells and bulkheads. To further support this opinion, §RR311 prohibits traveling through a garage to access the required exit door from a dwelling to the exterior.

Q. Does the new energy code apply to an addition to an existing house?

A. Yes. The RC applies to new construction and Chapter 11 contains the energy code provisions. Alterations to the existing portion of the house are regulated by RC §RN1101.1.3 entitled "substantial alterations to existing buildings."

Q. Does a furnace need to be enclosed in a fire-rated separation or a furnace room?

A. No. RC §RM1401 and §RG2406, applicable to the installation of such appliances, do not require furnace rooms.

Q. Where are the requirements for a Bed & Breakfast?

A. RC Appendix J §RAJ701 is applicable to the conversion of a one-or two-family dwelling to a Bed and Breakfast dwelling.

Q. Are unvented portable kerosene heaters permitted?

A. Yes. RC §RM1415 regulates the manufacture and use of unvented portable kerosene heaters.

Q. Is there a NYS modification for stair configuration?

A. Yes. RC §RR314.2 provides a maximum riser height of 8-1/4 inches and a minimum tread depth of 9 inches. §RR314.5, spiral stairs, has also been modified to prohibit a spiral stair as the only means of egress from a story.

Q. When is a three story residential occupancy not required to be equipped with an NFPA 13D sprinkler system (per §RR317.3)?

A. It is not required to be equipped with an NFPA 13D sprinkler system when the first of the three stories is a basement. RC §RR202 defines the term "basement" as that portion of a building that is partly or completely below grade. Sprinklers are not required in any building having two stories above a basement, whether the basement is below grade or considered a story above grade. It should be noted that an attic is defined as an unfinished space. A two-story building with an attic converted to a finished space is a three story building and must be sprinklered in accordance with NFPA 13D.

Q. What code is applicable to the relocation of a mobile home or the installation of a new HUD manufactured home?

A. RC Appendix E provides the applicable construction and installation requirements.

Q. We are used to using the gypsum assembly U 317 for the 3/4 hour garage separation. Do we have to use the prescriptive assembly in the exception to RC §RR309.2.1?

A. No. Either is considered to be compliant.

Q. Are foam (ICF) forms permitted for foundation wall concrete construction?

A. Yes. RC §RR404.4 specifically provides for the use of these forms.

Q. Are lally columns permitted?

A. The code does not prohibit their use. Check the manufacturer's listing for approval for their use.

Q. Must new electrical installations be provided with arc-fault protection as required by NFPA 70-1999?

A. No. Not if compliance is achieved through RC Chapters 33-42.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

> Q. Must new electrical installations be provided with arc-fault protection as required by NFPA 70-1999?
> 
> A. No. Not if compliance is achieved through RC Chapters 33-42.


Don't forget theman, that is all going to change real soon. 
If NYS would only get it's ass in gear and actually make a decision on which code it wants to follow and when. 
Every time I get "confirmation" on when the new code cycle will be and it's inception date, two weeks later I am told they were mistaken.
Only time will tell.
I hate AFCIs, but they are inevitable in NY.


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