# Got Fired from a recent Job!!



## HallisseyDesign (Jul 6, 2007)

I got into an argument with a home owner. He wanted me to keep the illegal lines to this secret panel. I got fired because the secret lines to this secret panel are only 6 gauge wire. He wanted me to put in a 100amp 12 pull box. Running off of 6 GAUGE WIRE. I told him I would not do it. He said you do not get paid and leave. I was laughing. When I was leaving his buddy was there who is also an electrician told him he would wire it up for him. I am still laughing, the damn house is going to burn down! So you have 6 GAUGE WIRE feeding a 100 amp box from the main lines to the house. The 100amp panel will feed 2 A/C units and 2 furnaces one down stairs and one up. This panel will also feed his pool pump along with the garage. The thing is going to burn down the house. What are your guys/gals thoughts on this?:blink:

Edit- Sorry forgot to put in there the 6 Gauge lines are connected before the meter as in not going on the electrical bill!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Since you don't seem to be an electrician, I think you did the right thing. :thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

As long as those 6 wires are protected by a double pole 60 amp overcurrent protection device, they can serve as the feeders for a panel rated for 125 amps at 120/ 240 volts. But it's a poor design for both A/C condensing units to be coming from a 60 amp sub-panel. CU's are inductive loads and draw up to 6 times the amount of current at start up.


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## HallisseyDesign (Jul 6, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> Since you don't seem to be an electrician, I think you did the right thing. :thumbsup:



The problem is- I am- I walked away because I have seen it happen to many times. I told him to replace the lines with 3 gauge into the panel. i told him I would do that and make it right but he didn't want to spend another 25 dollars in line. So it would of cost him like 100 dollars in material then 100 in labor.


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## HallisseyDesign (Jul 6, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> As long as those 6 wires are protected by a double pole 60 amp overcurrent protection device, they can serve as the feeders for a panel rated for 125 amps at 120/ 240 volts. But it's a poor design for both A/C condensing units to be coming from a 60 amp sub-panel. CU's are inductive loads and draw up to 6 times the amount of current at start up.


 You missed the part were I said the lines were connected before the meter. I would of been fine if they were able to be protected but they are straight off the lines into this new panel.:clap:

Sorry I left out the part were the 6 Gauge wires were connected before the meter. Sorry


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

So how are you going to close the permit you opened for him?


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## idoelectric (Jun 24, 2007)

First of all, you shouldn't be doing any electrical work for a fee without an electrical license for anyone other yourself. Secondly, I commend you for having enough sense to refuse to do something that is obviously wrong. I have refused many requests by frugal HOs trying to save pennys. I never argue with them but just thank them for their time and leave. My license and knowledge is worth way more than faulty work that I would be liable for if I chose to do it and something happened.

How close are this guy's neighbors? If I knew that shabby work was going to be performed in spite of what had been advised, I go report it to the electrical inspectors in the area. Not out of getting back at him, but to protect the neighbors from a potential hazard. It's one thing if this guy don't care about his house burning but to knowingly do faulty work with no regards for the safety of others is borderline criminal. I don't feel that this situation is funny at all. 

Remember, when you do any electrical work for others for a fee and someone is hurt or killed or house is burned down, you can be arrested and charged with neglient homicide or destruction of property. I don't care what you know or don't know or how easy it is, LIABILITY is a big responsibility and can get you in trouble. Want to electrical work, do it at your house and leave it at that.


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## HallisseyDesign (Jul 6, 2007)

The thing is I have been doing electrical for 10 years helping my dad. He had his license in Cali. He also had a electrical license in the navy. IL will not give him a new license, they told him that he had to have 3000 hours in the state for him to regain his license here. It is not that I don't know how to do it or I will burn a house down, it was the fact that the ho did not listen and with his LICENSED ELECTRICIAN doing it wrong.:clap::clap:Good stuff guys.:clap:

I am insured, bonded, along with a ton of other **** along with it too.


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## HallisseyDesign (Jul 6, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> So how are you going to close the permit you opened for him?


 
Haha permit?:whistling


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## idoelectric (Jun 24, 2007)

I can understand your situation. If there's a licensed electrician willing and knowingly do faulty work, then that's a risk he have to take and I would still make a call inspectors and report it just to get that guy off the street before he kills somebody.


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## te12c02w (Jun 1, 2007)

*Ecow*

I have to agree with the comments from electricians to this situation. It really does not matter how long you have been "doing electrical work". Unless or until you get legally qualified you should not be even considering taking on any electrical work at all. The consequences for doing unlicensed electrical work can be heavy.


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## Mach (Jun 18, 2007)

idoelectric said:


> I can understand your situation. If there's a licensed electrician willing and knowingly do faulty work, then that's a risk he have to take and I would still make a call inspectors and report it just to get that guy off the street before he kills somebody.


I agree, I would be calling and enforcing this situation. How are you going to feel when you open the paper and see that house half burnt down and the headline says "3 children died".

I honestly hate it when I would show up at a house and the HO tells me he has all the material. yeah direct burial romex will work sir :no:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

hallisy design said:


> I did a basement job- started march first, 1100 square foot. 1 bedroom, a bathroom full, full wet bar, full movie room- in 24 days. Drop ceiling too. Working I dunno 17 days on average. The home owner went out of town and we had a 500 dollar bet that 2 guys would be done by the end of the month. Well we finished 6 days early! Tongue and grove 3/4 inch 5 inch wide pine walls. I don't really take days off and work 7 days a week. Normally I put in 10-14 hours a day in. 10 of them actually working then 4 on the computer drawing something up or doing electrical prints. Like now it is 1:46am for me and I am doing a 1800 square foot addition take-off that I need to get material prices for tomorrow by 8am! Well back to work for me. *Got to love being 20 years old* and only sleep 3-4 hours a night!


give the kid credit for working hard, but I remember at 20 I 'knew' I knew everything. At 25, I 'thought' I knew a lot....at 30, I 'thought' I knew something....coming up to 35, I 'know' I know nothing...

Hallisey, work hard, but learn to keep you mouth closed and your ears open...I just did a quick search...what new code only allows 12 lights? 

I've learned in this world you can be absolute and you can be wrong, neither will hurt you....but when you are absolutely wrong, in public, it compromises everything you say. even when you are correct now, there will be doubt. 

Not to mention, guys who really do know, will screw with you all day long when you are absolutely wrong.

good luck


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

mahlere said:


> Not to mention, guys who really do know, will screw with you all day long when you are absolutely wrong.


Well, we all have our faults. :laughing:

I didn't realize until just now that he was only 20. I'll give him a break, then. After all, he's been doing electrical work since he was 10.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

I guess i'm just getting cynical in my old age...but when guys with 20-30-40 yrs legitimate electrical experience (licensed contractors, licensed inspectors, etc) still have legitimate disagreements about the code....i find it hard to fathom that a 20 yr kid with '10 yrs experience' can actually even read the code book...let alone interpret it...

just my inner crotchety old man coming out I guess...


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

mahlere said:


> just my inner crotchety old man coming out I guess...


It's okay. Having an 'inner crotchety old man' is what keeps you sharp. Sorta like a 6th sense. You are your father's son, indeed! :thumbsup:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> It's okay. Having an 'inner crotchety old man' is what keeps you sharp. Sorta like a 6th sense. You are your father's son, indeed! :thumbsup:


nah, he's got an outer crotchety old man:whistling


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

HallisseyDesign said:


> Haha permit?:whistling


 
That's what I figured.

Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but - it looks to me like we got a jack leg doing jack leg work being asked to do even worse jack leg work and the jack leg gets upset? So basically you're defining a line that even a jack leg won't cross?

You being upset about this customer : Isn't think kind of like when a drug dealer gets ripped off and he's upset there are criminals?


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## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

HallisseyDesign said:


> Haha permit?:whistling


I'll touch on this one a little. PPP, Professionals Pull Permits, it is part of our job just like:

The oil change guy has to put the drain plug on before you drive off.

The cook has to make sure you food is completely cooked before serving it.

The dentist has to make sure that he puts gloves on before he goes playing in your mouth.

When you tell other professionals that you don't play by the rules they can only assume that you are not a professional.

Good luck.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

if you are willing to do electrical work without a license in a state that requires it...why worry about permits, they are trivial.

however, I will say that the customers who don't want permits, are not the customers that I want...they usually want it fast and cheap.


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## MechanicalDVR (Jun 23, 2007)

*Guess I've been wrong all this time*



HallisseyDesign said:


> The thing is I have been doing electrical for 10 years helping my dad. He had his license in Cali. He also had a electrical license in the navy. IL will not give him a new license, they told him that he had to have 3000 hours in the state for him to regain his license here. It is not that I don't know how to do it or I will burn a house down, it was the fact that the ho did not listen and with his LICENSED ELECTRICIAN doing it wrong.:clap::clap:Good stuff guys.:clap:
> 
> So if I was out on a job with my uncle at 5yrs old then I should count my experience in the trade from that day, got it. And here I have only been counting from the time I was actually doing it for a living.


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## HallisseyDesign (Jul 6, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> HallisseyDesign said:
> 
> 
> > The thing is I have been doing electrical for 10 years helping my dad. He had his license in Cali. He also had a electrical license in the navy. IL will not give him a new license, they told him that he had to have 3000 hours in the state for him to regain his license here. It is not that I don't know how to do it or I will burn a house down, it was the fact that the ho did not listen and with his LICENSED ELECTRICIAN doing it wrong.:clap::clap:Good stuff guys.:clap:
> ...


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

son,

good luck....you will need it.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

I can remember helping my daddy open up and spread out Visquene plastic on top of the stones prior to a concrete pour when I was in elementary school, but I don't that as experience doing flatwork. :laughing:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

HallisseyDesign said:


> ..........but I know more than most 20 year olds do about this business and how to do this work and also a lot of other work too.






Famous last words my friend. My family has been doing construction for god knows when. My grandfather that recently passed away (RIP) is know as a legend in these parts. That is coming from guys that worked with him when they were starting out. 

I am here to tell you you don't know ****. Go learn something. 

I admire you starting a contracting business at 20. There are people out there that will shark you in this game. You are still a green horn.


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## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

I played with Lincoln logs (the real wood ones) when I was 2.
Finger painted the contents of my diaper when I was 1.
Played with the drain of my toilet when I was 3.
Placed batteries in a flashlight when I was 4.

So on average I have over 35 years of experience in the trades? I generally don't count any of the stuff I did before I had my license. For some reason clients will not hire me when I tell them the finger painting story.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

dougchips said:


> I played with Lincoln logs (the real wood ones) when I was 2.
> Finger painted the contents of my diaper when I was 1.
> Played with the drain of my toilet when I was 3.
> Placed batteries in a flashlight when I was 4.
> ...



You too!!:thumbup: I knocked over potted plants at 2. Landscaper.
Unhinged a screen door at 3. Carpenter 
Open up a heat register with a screw driver at 3. HVAC I also tossed all my grama's kitchen utensils in the register till I was caught after about three months. Thief. Built with lincoln logs and legos from 4-8 
Wood shop from 6th to 9th grade.
Worked on the house with my dad from 10th to 11th grade.
Bonafide shady contractor. :laughing:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

y'all are mean....

i only say something because everything factual he has posted regarding electric...has been wrong.

I mean, I've probably broken every child labor law while growing up...at 7 yrs old, i was slinging romex in new houses with my father...at 12-16, i spent the summers working for him on jobsites (we were a union shop at the time:whistling)

I worked the summers through college...except for the one summer I did hazardous waste remediation (not a good job:no

but, in reality, i've been doing this full time for almost 10 yrs...i'm licensed in the state I work in. 

So, do I have 27 yrs experience or 10? I say 10....hell, even if I add up all the time in the previous 17, it might equal 5000 or 6000 hrs....


edit to add.....there is one c-sucker that I will always say 15 yrs experience too...but he's a prick


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

HallisseyDesign said:


> Haha permit?:whistling


:no::no::no:


that's a whole other thread ... and really I'd kinda rather pretend I didn't read that ...




Experience -


Running a business is kind of like driving on the ridge of a mountain, with a 500 foot drop-off to your right.

That's my experience ... 


Though I did learn to form & pour concrete when I was 10


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## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

mahlere said:


> So, do I have 27 yrs experience or 10? I say 10....hell, even if I add up all the time in the previous 17, it might equal 5000 or 6000 hrs....



Now that I have 10 years I say 10 years. When I first started I looked young and people would often question my work history. At that time I mentioned that I have been doing this ever since I was a kid. I can't blame a younger person for counting the years before they were born........but I can get upset when they compete without a license, insurance........


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## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> :no::no::no:
> 
> 
> i gotta go watch tv or something


The Simpson's will prolly be on at 5pm.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

HallisseyDesign said:


> I know I don't know everything and am still learning but I know more than most 20 year olds do about this business and how to do this work and also a lot of other work too.


I think you are right now at a cross roads. Your life will be very, very different depending upon which path you take. As of today you've got a great advantage going for you. At 20 years old you have a lot of good construction experience. All you need to do now is make the turn down the right path and the world will be yours. Jack-leg methods are short-term gains, if you plan on being in this business for a long time, it's time to get a better understanding of ethics and business. If you do it now you won't ever have to look back, you'll never have to apologize, never have to worry about a sleepless night.

If you've got all the talent you say you have, simply step up to the plate and separate yourself. Right now you're peer group is all the jack asses and jack legs that run around without insurance, no licenses, don't or can't pull permits, don't pay taxes, work for cash, short vendors, rip off customers, hire illegals, rip off subs, put customers homes at risk, put employees at risk...

If that's the peer group you want to have then keep doing what you're doing. But you sound smart enough to me to know there probably is a better way. You're not old enough to know how the story ends yet, but in 20 years you'll see all those jack legs still being jack asses and still being flat ass busted and broke, with nothing to show for what they've done 20 years from now.

Take a look at your big builders, take a look at your leaders in your industry. How are they doing things? Look at your local builders groups, get involved with them, learn how to do things right and learn how to do business ethically. 

Right now you're ahead of the game, keep doing what you're doing and when you're 35 all you will be is another jack leg with a busted up pick up with a bad reputation and no credit. If you're as good as you think you are, it shouldn't be any harder to do things right then to do things wrong. But the long term payoff will be tremendous.

Sermon over. Hope you figure things out.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

Good post Mike.Couldn't have said it better.


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## HallisseyDesign (Jul 6, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> I think you are right now at a cross roads. Your life will be very, very different depending upon which path you take. As of today you've got a great advantage going for you. At 20 years old you have a lot of good construction experience. All you need to do now is make the turn down the right path and the world will be yours. Jack-leg methods are short-term gains, if you plan on being in this business for a long time, it's time to get a better understanding of ethics and business. If you do it now you won't ever have to look back, you'll never have to apologize, never have to worry about a sleepless night.
> 
> If you've got all the talent you say you have, simply step up to the plate and separate yourself. Right now you're peer group is all the jack asses and jack legs that run around without insurance, no licenses, don't or can't pull permits, don't pay taxes, work for cash, short vendors, rip off customers, hire illegals, rip off subs, put customers homes at risk, put employees at risk...
> 
> ...


Ohh I understand I will get crap for another 15 years on everything I do. I do not mind it. I undestand everything everybody is telling me. I have wired houses by myself at 16. California- It is little different no pipe to bend but I wired up a 3200 square foot house and I markd everything, everything worked too! So really I can consider that my first time doing something on a job for you fine gents. :notworthy I have framed houses - learned how to sweat pipe and run pipe. I can run gas lines, key term is CAN. I have friend who has been doing it for 20 years do it for me. I understand that what I have done is nothing compared to what some of you have done and gone through. I can frame out and sheet a 20'x26' garage by myself in 4 days. Including roof sheeting. Ohh to the smart ass on saying I couldn;t even read a code book that was funny:laughing:. I can read one-- well een better I can understand one too. 

I worked for a construction company, I quit after a month. He did half ass work and the inspector did his inspecting from the street. I could not work for a guy who cut corners/did ****ty work. So I decide to start my own business, I do have a tax ID number. I do pay taxes, the 2 other people who work with me get taxed too. Please don't talk about working for a big company/inspectors. I have seen what they let fly and people should not be able to sleep at night. Going back to electrical- you can run 12 recepticals off of one breaker (15amp). The old code use to be 6. I have always run 6 and will keep doing it. 

Well since I don't know the answer I am going to ask you guys. Why can't you run a dimmer on both sides of a 3 way switch? I don't understand why and everybody I have asked-- even a inspector. The answer I get is " that is the way it is" well that answer sucks. I asked the inspector- he said "Did you read the electrical code on it. I said yes sir, he said what did it tell you? I told him not word for word but you can not run a 3 way dimmer on both sides of the 3 way switch. He goes well then that is your answer and walked away." That is just wnderful. Some peopl just piss me off. They are suppose to know aren't they?

Thanks for all of your guys input.


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## HallisseyDesign (Jul 6, 2007)

dirt diggler said:


> :no::no::no:
> 
> 
> that's a whole other thread ... and really I'd kinda rather pretend I didn't read that ...
> ...


I write in my contracts I do not supply permits if you (the home owner) wants them go get them. I have had home owners go get them and inspectors are mostly cool about it. I learned how to do concrete too, m dad ran his business for 10 years then became a teacher. Concrete sucks tho!

OHH I AM NOT MAD AT ALL. I AM VERY HAPPY BECAUSE MY HANDS ARE NOT ON THAT JOB ANYMORE!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

HallisseyDesign said:


> I write in my contracts I do not supply permits if you (the home owner) wants them go get them.


Oh, boy!

That makes it right... how? 

Be advised that you are a hack. :thumbsup:


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## firemike (Dec 11, 2005)

> Right now you're ahead of the game, keep doing what you're doing and when you're 35 all you will be is another jack leg with a busted up pick up with a bad reputation and no credit. If you're as good as you think you are, it shouldn't be any harder to do things right then to do things wrong. But the long term payoff will be tremendous.


... Provided you don't get caught and fined or one of your jobs goes bad and you get sued. You seem like you want to do things right, just your lack of experiance is keeping you from being a "contractor" instead of a hack. you really need to step back and think about what you want to be. Mike had a lot of great points - the ball in in your court now.

Another point. I am not sure about other states, but here in Michigan, if a project requires a license, and you don't have one, and do the job and it is over $600, and the customer decides not to pay you, THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT! Any contract, if you use them, would be automatically null and void if it was for a trade that requires licensure.

And you don't even want to know what happens with insurance companies when a claim results directly or indirectly because of work you did on the owners house or business if you are unlicensed and uninsured (hopefully you DO have some type of liability insurance for the stuff that you do legally do). And permits, if you are doing the work, you should get them. If you are really doing it the way you say, God help you when (not if) something goes wrong!


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

HallisseyDesign said:


> Ohh to the smart ass on saying I couldn;t even read a code book that was funny:laughing:. I can read one-- well een better I can understand one too.





> Going back to electrical- you can run 12 recepticals off of one breaker (15amp). The old code use to be 6. I have always run 6 and will keep doing it.


Well, i'm the smartass...and I stand by my comment...you may want to get a new code book (Try the NEC one this time) and learn your codes...

while you are busy reading your code book and understanding it, please cite me the section that limits the number of receptacles off one breaker in residential? please cite the section that limits it anywhere.

You are a walking example of a famous Mark Twain quote.

I'll be waiting with baited breath for your answer....


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

HallisseyDesign said:


> Ohh I understand I will get crap for another 15 years on everything I do. I do not mind it. I undestand everything everybody is telling me. I have wired houses by myself at 16. California- It is little different no pipe to bend but I wired up a 3200 square foot house and I markd everything, everything worked too! So really I can consider that my first time doing something on a job for you fine gents. :notworthy I have framed houses - learned how to sweat pipe and run pipe. I can run gas lines, key term is CAN. I have friend who has been doing it for 20 years do it for me. I understand that what I have done is nothing compared to what some of you have done and gone through. I can frame out and sheet a 20'x26' garage by myself in 4 days. Including roof sheeting. Ohh to the smart ass on saying I couldn;t even read a code book that was funny:laughing:. I can read one-- well een better I can understand one too.
> 
> I worked for a construction company, I quit after a month. He did half ass work and the inspector did his inspecting from the street. I could not work for a guy who cut corners/did ****ty work. So I decide to start my own business, I do have a tax ID number. I do pay taxes, the 2 other people who work with me get taxed too. Please don't talk about working for a big company/inspectors. I have seen what they let fly and people should not be able to sleep at night. Going back to electrical- you can run 12 recepticals off of one breaker (15amp). The old code use to be 6. I have always run 6 and will keep doing it.
> 
> ...


Yes, there are bad apples in every trade, big companies or small. There are also outstanding companies big or small. If you can point out to me the bad apples you have ran into then you know the difference. There are only three types of people who choose to consciously follow the bad apples: *fools*, *thieves* and the *ignorant*.

I hope you just ignorant, because that's nothing to be ashamed of. Ignorance can be changed with education, but if you're a fool or a thief then you're doomed.



> *Character* - is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that is wrong is to get caught. - J.C. Watts





> *Success* - You have to learn the rules of the game, and then you have to play better than anyone else. - Albert Einstein


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## HallisseyDesign (Jul 6, 2007)

mahlere said:


> Well, i'm the smartass...and I stand by my comment...you may want to get a new code book (Try the NEC one this time) and learn your codes...
> 
> while you are busy reading your code book and understanding it, please cite me the section that limits the number of receptacles off one breaker in residential? please cite the section that limits it anywhere.
> 
> ...


Hey the electrical inspector at a job said that was the code. Now all you fine stand up guys always say inspectors know best! I just listened, then he signed me off and said it look good. then he left.


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## Hawkeye_Pierce (Jun 19, 2006)

HallisseyDesign said:


> You know what dude- **** you and your ****ing soap box. I can and will wire circles around your old ass. I even told you I do not know it all and asked for some advice. You in turn tell me to basically go **** off. What are you afraid of? Me taking your job because your one of those GC's that should hang up his gear and retire because you think your god? Buddy go grow a pair.
> 
> The guys who have helped thank you for your opinions. I will keep on my way. Thanks Mike Finley for your comments.




Son you just stepped on your own dick. 

And you aint the only 20yr old who gets 3 hours of sleep a day.


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

*Locked!*


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