# Bid Mistakes: How To Deal With Bid Dispute



## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

I would have painted the ceilings of each room at the same time as the walls. If they wanted to do it separate the price would double.


----------



## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

Like Vinyl said, $2300 for 3 weeks? At that rate, it would be better to pick up cans and bottles from the side of the road. Most of us have been there, overestimating our abilities and underestimating difficulty and cost. 

Consider it cheap tuition. Learn from it. And remember there is no such thing as “paying your dues.” The objective is to get proficient and get profitable as fast as you can. Don’t worry about volume. If you can’t profit on a $1000 job, you can’t profit on a 10,000 job. Don’t get busy, get profitable. They are not synonymous. 

I started in a similar way to you. 

Hanging out in this forum has been the single most beneficial activity I have pursued. 

Raise your productivity or raise your rates. Preferably, raise both.

The HO probably feels guilty because she knows how long you worked versus how little she paid. Many wouldn’t feel guilty. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Major87 (Dec 1, 2018)

Well, the supportive comments are helpful. I appreciate that. I understand there’s a complexity to both how that situation was approached and how it was received, both on my customer and with you guys. I tried my best to make it work but it played out how it did. 

It’s wild how the internet works people’s minds; I’m not here sharing a full work history, asking for a psychoanalysis or a shoulder really. I was just asking for direct advice on how to deal with that situation professionally. Most of the feedback has been super helpful in perspective, so thank you. But the guys who get on here just to talk ****, calm down. It’s okay— sometimes people make mistakes and own up to it and still don’t have an answer or feel good about it so they ask people. It’s a thing. No use being a dick, but if you got something I can grow from— please share.

If I’m a victim to anything, it’s my inexperience. And I’ll admit it. That’s not saying boo hoo, it’s me saying yeah— I’m getting my feet wet and sometimes, I slip up. But I have the focus and drive to do this, and after seeing what I’d make with my college degree vs this right now— it was only smart for me to pick up a trade. Found the trade, learned the application— now I’m trying to get this whole business thing down. It’s clearly not easy, it can be defeating and rough. So that’s why I asked for help.

About the 2300 for 3 weeks, sure— one job, that’d be low. I get it. But clearly, I’m not out here functioning and grinding in nice markets making nothing. I said in my posts she lined up a customer down the street, and I had work with a business partner outside of that. The work load isn’t the problem, ON THIS JOB it was bad math mixed with poor bid structuring. There was some odd itemizing I did with the customer that threw me off (ie “can you just do walls here? I’ll do the trim” or “Can you paint just this ceiling? I had the walls painted already.”). I tried to be accommodating and easy to work with when I really should have took those late additions and odd requests as indicators to raise the price on things. There was definitely some lessons learned.

To my enjoyment, I already have a way more costly mistake on a different site I have to take care of. So this is all behind me at this point. Thanks for all the feedback.


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Major87 said:


> ...To my enjoyment, I already have a way more costly mistake on a different site I have to take care of. So this is all behind me at this point. Thanks for all the feedback...


another more costly mistake????

may be time for a career change....:whistling


----------



## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Major87 said:


> To my enjoyment, I already have a way more costly mistake on a different site I have to take care of. So this is all behind me at this point. Thanks for all the feedback.


I don't think you're going to have much success if you find enjoyment in making mistakes.


----------



## onmywayup (Aug 18, 2012)

griz said:


> another more costly mistake????
> 
> may be time for a career change....:whistling


Oh sh!t GriZ... Are we only allowed to make two before we gotta change careers?! I make at least two a day!


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

avenge said:


> I don't think you're going to have much success if you find enjoyment in making mistakes.


You're never heard of working for the gubbamint? :laughing:


----------



## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Major87: Love to see an English Major actually PAY taxes...:thumbsup:

The Home owner had you pegged at hello....You can't Con a completely honest man.......

Drop the screwy discount, for a one man band it shouts my regular pricing isn't "fair".....

You could almost demand a w-2 instead of an 1099 from the H. Owner as it appears you were paid almost hourly, did you use their equipment?:jester:


I rather spend a couple of unpaid days looking for profitable work, then taking work on ladders for free/cost....

avoid negotiating with persons that can twist you into poor deals.

Don't be afraid to "leave the Room" to do the math for an actual bid. Or tell the HO you need to call the supplier for some prices, Don't Guesstimate...

Set aside enough $$ that you don't feel "hungry" when you can't work for a few days. Have a plan of off days and work it to forward your business

I'd seek out a large up scale rental outfit/property manager to see if they needed a "In house " sub painter maybe for slow weeks when they roll lease over..


----------



## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

I’m late but I think this needs to be said. You’re being too nice. Your customer probably got multiple quotes and yours was the cheapest by a lot. (I’d bet)

In my experience, the reason people add in things in the middle of a job is usually because they realize how cheap you’re working and you’re doing a good job and they start thinking hey I can get more done than I thought. 

It sounds like this customer got their moneys worth. Even if you want to finish the job you can’t continue to lose money. 

I’m having trouble understanding what the problem is. You asked the customer if you could be done with the job because you were losing money. They gave you what you asked for. What’s the problem?


----------



## gmedia (Jun 8, 2014)

Major87,


Congratulations on owning your own business! I think you've probably gleaned all you are going to from this crew on this topic. I hate that some people may not realize their comments are actually destructive and not helpful. Yet, there were a few nuggets as well.


In the beginning especially, that is when you are still building confidence in your pricing, quoting, discounts, sales, and craft. All of this is very normal, and each person on here that has owned a business has made these mistakes and much worse.


There is nothing desperate about discounts, etc. As you already know, they can be strategic and very smart. 



For a new business owner, I might suggest you have a good quoting software to build quotes and packages and let the customer choose whether they want this package that qualifies for a discount, or there is this one as well. Good, Better, Best is a great strategy. Some will select the best one, just because that's how they always roll. It is a nice way to present other options or "products/packages" that you do in a friendly, non-threatening way. If it is a good system, they can select their options in real-time, the price updates, and they pay the deposit right there and then (on the web). The sooner you can stop quoting in Excel or paper, the better. You are wasting time (writing the same thing from scratch every time) and money (you'll make more with the software), and do not look as professional as you can. Also, you can integrate contract/terms of service that outlines things that could happen and protects you and your company. Often there is a provision for unforeseen or overlooked things. As long as you are being professional, bidding competently and honestly, there can be a provision for honest mistakes. They do happen to imperfect people. You don't have to load it with any "gotcha policies". You can probably find a good template on a legal website. I would also spend the extra few hundred dollars to have a lawyer look it over and you come prepared with bullet points that you want to make sure you're protected from. Quoting Software, CRM, and Project/Company Management Software right out of the gate will help you to be an efficient beast from jump.



You are on the right track I think. It is obvious you have a good head on your shoulders. Good luck!


Chris


P.S. I do not sell quoting software or get anything for suggesting


----------



## Texas Wax (Jan 16, 2012)

gmedia said:


> Major87,
> 
> 
> I think you've probably gleaned all you are going to from this crew on this topic. I hate that some people may not realize their comments are actually destructive and not helpful. Yet, there were a few nuggets as well.


Hard cold reality - Clients don't care about a contractors problems, Money doesn't care about a learning curve or why a bidding error was made. There is a high level of narcissism in the contracting world. 99% of the time it's the contractor who gets in his own way. Then complains about it and searches for the answers he want to hear, rather than the truth. Which is anything but warm and fuzzy. 

Start ups and new contracting companies are a dime a dozen and the majority won't last past 2-3 years. Mostly founded on dreams and hopes rather than the realities. You have to consistently make more than you spend to make it worth your effort. You have to please your customers or have a marketing system in place that can produce a volume of low paying (competitive) fresh meat. Long term there is no way past those two things. There is no middle ground, no magic advice. Those problems have to be constantly worked on and overcome, from day one. 

That work means losing money because you are wet behind the ears. Means you'll always be searching for leads and working hard to sign contracts. Harder than you ever thought you'd have too. You'll be dancing a dance that rubs the ego the wrong way to keep customers happy. Or having to make hard decisions as to which customers need to be a priority. Typically when you over extend and the cash in the bank is low you have to choose who to please. Trying to Keep everybody happy leads to pissing them all off. Ending up with a handful of nothing to show for the effort. 

Success is fleeting in this industry. Those whom I know that are, don't talk and think like the OP. The "stuff" he wants answer to? It's all on him to solve. He has to figure out what it takes for him and the specific customers to be more profitable and efficient. VOLUMES have been written on that and even so he's the one that has to do the work and try different things to find what works. Crap butt load of failures ahead. Until he either folds or succeeds. Ain't much sympathy from those who been there done that. Simply Boo phuking hoo, welcome to the club, get over your chit and get down to the business of solving the business problems.


----------



## sparehair (Nov 21, 2008)

griz said:


> another more costly mistake????
> 
> may be time for a career change....:whistling


Guy comes on here to learn and is honest about his mistakes and you just insult him. Stop being a jerk.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Major87 (Dec 1, 2018)

Oh internet. Okay.

To answer the problem with the outcome, it’s my integrity and reputation in a good market that I’ve been trying to corner. Sure— dope they said, “we’re good on you finishing the work,” but how does that turn out in the long run through conversations with neighbors or family friends who ask about contractors?

“Yeah, they did great work. It was cost efficient and he did his best.”= best case scenario 

“I hired a few guys, a couple were good but the painters I went through didn’t finish the job, left me with a one coated ceiling and tried to ask for more money to finish it.”= worst case.

I don’t know if that seems like a problem to everyone, but I’d hope we can agree that isn’t a good look. I’d prefer to finish the job at a loss then not finish the job, look bad and lose future potential business.

As far as jumping back into the rental market, blah man. No. That market is long hours, worse pay, disgusting conditions, working with property managers and project managers who want you to tear up tack strips, run their work sites and do things at a long quality-high efficiency. The times I’ve had property managers tell me to do things wrong or poorly just turns me off to that completely. I appreciate the suggestion but unless I have to go back to that, I’m specifically trying to stay in residential markets. 

Gmedia or Chris— that was the gem of this whole thread. Thank you for that. I like the idea of using a streamlined software like that. I didn’t know that was a thing and I will definitely do some research on that moving forward. I like the idea of packages; providing the customer with options that don’t jeopardize my bottom line and profitability while at the same time, using techniques similar to discount where the customer feels like they’re getting a deal of sorts. All of that was super valuable so thanks for taking the time to share that.

And an English major paying taxes— is there some joke I’m missing there? Are English majors notoriously evading taxes or committing tax fraud? Funny thing about college is they generally make you take courses from every school at the university to complete what they call requisites or criteria for your major and minor. That said, I had a double major in English and journalism and a minor in advertising and promotion, all of which carried course loads full of international marketing, biomedical ethics, social evolution, criminology and— you guessed it— math. Had to take math to graduate. Might not have been my major but in order to get that expensive paper that says I went to college and finished— my last semester was an internship in Cambodia while taking accounting and micro to graduate... 

I pay taxes. Because I’m smart.

And who ever keeps getting on and barking “ boo hoo for you” and “suck it up Betty, grow some balls and tuition paid in hard knocks uni!”— I get it man, you don’t wanna come off nice. You’re frustrated that you see some of your old mistakes in my words and that makes your spend the time writing all that in a stern, apathetic manner. But I see behind what you wrote— what matters is you did. That means you care about helping on a certain level. So let’s drop all the garbage rhetoric— maybe read one of my posts in entirety— and just give me the advice without all the fatherly disappointment. Is that doable?

Thanks everyone for the responses. Most are very helpful.


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

dude, it's got nothing to do with my previous performance...

just seen way TOO many guys in the same boat you are in...

most capsized and drowned...

it is a school of VERY HARD KNOCKS....

if you want to keep floundering...so be it

good luck with your life...


----------



## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

sparehair said:


> Guy comes on here to learn and is honest about his mistakes and you just insult him. Stop being a jerk.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk




You are mistaken insults with honesty and no BS answers. Stop being a Nancy. 


Mike.
_______________


----------



## Seven-Delta-FortyOne (Mar 5, 2011)

gmedia said:


> Major87,
> 
> 
> Congratulations on owning your own business! I think you've probably gleaned all you are going to from this crew on this topic. I hate that some people may not realize their comments are actually destructive and not helpful. Yet, there were a few nuggets as well.


I see you lasting a long time here, highly respected for your vast wealth of knowledge. 




Systems Integrator. :whistling




WTF. :blink:


----------



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

sparehair said:


> Guy comes on here to learn and is honest about his mistakes and you just insult him. Stop being a jerk.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


truth hurts.....

i can fix many things....

can't fix stupid....


----------



## Major87 (Dec 1, 2018)

Griz— you’ve said some semi helpful things while continuing to maintain whatever approach that is. I’ll give it you for consistency and follow through. However, capatilzing the same phrase I’m mocking doesn’t make it more important or mean something different. Let’s be real: we’ve all made professional mistakes. We’ve all made general mistakes. It’s life. So hard knocks, tough lessons— we can use all the cliches we want to but at the end of the consistent deterring, you should offer more than “maybe time for a career change” or “keep floundering, have a good life”. You’re not telling anyone anything they don’t already know with that hard lesson stuff. And telling someone to give up is trolling. I can’t remember the last time trollingaffected my perspective. Or was helpful. 

Wheres all that animosity come from if it’s not projection? Do you have a general distaste for people who ask for help in forums generated around professional advice? And if so, why participate?

The simple fact is, it’d take more than a communication mistake or a couple hundred dollar loss for me to give up on the path I’m on. Sorry. I’m good at what I do and I’m trying to figure out the business side. Don’t pat me on the back for that, I will. Shoot me for being ambitious. 

Is there some initiation process to joining a contractors forum? Is this the equivalent to getting jumped in— all the contractors jump on the new contractor and see if he can stick around? Is this like the cool table at lunch and I’m the goth kid who keeps trying to sit on the end 😐? Because none of that even matters. I asked a business question. About the field we’re in. 

Call it honesty or whatever, that’s fine. And say you don’t see “any of your previous performance” in my statements. That’s fine. The question is still why leave an answer if your not trying to help?


----------



## Frank Castle (Dec 27, 2011)

:laughing::whistling


----------



## Frank Castle (Dec 27, 2011)

Have you dropped by this section?
https://www.contractortalk.com/f44/


----------



## WBailey1041 (Jan 31, 2014)

Here is some good advice. You have two ears and one mouth for a reason. You should listen twice as much as you talk. If you apply this advice wholeheartedly to your current “bid mistake” it will solve all your problems and you can stop reading right now. (Your question was answered within 24 hours of asking it)

You didn’t sign up here and write us a big long story because you wanted to tell us how to fix OUR problems. Griz is one of the shining stars around here, when he opines, the smart ones heed his advice. You would do well to follow suit. 

You came here because YOU have a problem that you couldn’t solve. In desperation you reached out to strangers on the Internet. You’re not required to take our advice. 

Every reply you’ve received has been someone trying to help you. The men here are taking their time to explain to you what your problem is, how to avoid it in the future and how to make the best of the hand you deal yourself on this job. 

You’re not our son, we don’t owe you an explanation. The beauty of the Internet is that you’re getting opinions from general contractors, electrical contractors, paint contractors, masonry contractors, deck builders etc. 

We don’t care how many degrees you have or what your wonderful life story is. If you’re going to be a contractor you need to come to terms with the fact that your customers don’t either. 

You decided to become a contractor because you saw how much money was being made. (I’ll save my opinion on that for another time) l/We have to earn our money by doing a good job, on time and not whining to the client.

If you have any sense about you at all you would realize that the degrees you hold don’t mean anything in the world you have found yourself. You would be wise to read this forum from front to back. You could start by searching, “pricing for success”.

EDIT: You’re darn right I’m projecting. I won’t soon forget way back when I thought I only made a small mistake. I learned much later that the writing was on the wall. 

Small mistakes lead to complacency and that leads to habits. By the time I saw it I was so far behind I could barely catch up. Excuse me if I see the same thing in your story. Mostly, I see the same arrogance in your replies. A hard head makes a soft *** (rear end).


----------



## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Major87 said:


> Let’s be real: we’ve all made professional mistakes.


That's not true 29 years I haven't made one mistake that I would post on the internet and ask for advice.

Thinking about it the biggest mistake I've ever made cost me about $100. If I had to ask for advice and the response was "You're an idiot " I wouldn't have much of a defense.

I'm amazed over the amount of post similar to this one on this forum. Not everyone has what it takes to be a contractor and the first clue is their posts because if they had what it takes they wouldn't need advice. Most are just common sense remedies to get out of a predicament which they lacked the common sense not to find them in the first place. 

I get tired of hearing "It's the client" when in truth it's the contractor.


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Major87 said:


> The question is still why leave an answer if your not trying to help?


A better question might be why you're asking a question(s) if all you want is answers that suite you or your sensibilities?... 

The impression that's coming across is that you seem to think your issues are unique in some way... they're not... they're a story that's been revisited time and time again on this forum... the ones who are responding have been at it for decades and have seen and experienced a lot... 

The earlier in your career you learn how to deal with these issues and accept constructive criticisms (and even sarcastic ones to a degree - truth in humor) regarding these issues from people you are asking, the quicker you'll progress... Being "good at what you do" would make you a potentially good employee, not necessarily a good business owner...

What you might be missing is some people respond well to being told they can't do it or should give up and thrive as a result using it as a fuel... some shrink... 

Time will tell who you are... Best of luck... 8^)


----------



## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

gmedia said:


> Major87,
> 
> 
> Congratulations on owning your own business! I think you've probably gleaned all you are going to from this crew on this topic. I hate that some people may not realize their comments are actually destructive and not helpful. Yet, there were a few nuggets as well.



You've wandered into the wrong room if you want things sugar coated. My advice to you & Major is to read more & type less. The members of this forum are a gold mine of experience if you'll take the time to read, ask questions & pay attention. Don't try blowing smoke up people asses here, collectively, we've seen it all & won't hesitate to call ya on it. But if you really wanna improve on your craft & actually increase your profits, put your feelings back in your pocket & pay attention, & this crew will help get ya where you wanna be. I know my bottom line has increased a lot because of CT.


----------



## pinwheel (Dec 7, 2009)

Major87 said:


> Griz— you’ve said some semi helpful things while continuing to maintain whatever approach that is. I’ll give it you for consistency and follow through. However, capatilzing the same phrase I’m mocking doesn’t make it more important or mean something different. Let’s be real: we’ve all made professional mistakes. We’ve all made general mistakes. It’s life. So hard knocks, tough lessons— we can use all the cliches we want to but at the end of the consistent deterring, you should offer more than “maybe time for a career change” or “keep floundering, have a good life”. You’re not telling anyone anything they don’t already know with that hard lesson stuff. And telling someone to give up is trolling. I can’t remember the last time trollingaffected my perspective. Or was helpful.
> 
> Wheres all that animosity come from if it’s not projection? Do you have a general distaste for people who ask for help in forums generated around professional advice? And if so, why participate?
> 
> ...


You're a barely wet behind the ears contractor, talking down to one of the most seasoned builders you'll ever have the opportunity to seek advice, yet you claim to be smart.:laughing:

If you can't take the brutal straight forward truth your receiving in this thread, you might want to go back & capitalize on your other career path, because we're tame compared to the clients you're going to work for that will chew you up & spit you out. Why do you think most new business owners fail? You've already been given my best piece of advice, you've got 2 ears & one mouth for a reason. Quit acting like you already know everything, because it's obvious you don't. There's a wealth of knowledge on this forum on operating a successful business, if you're really as smart as you think you are, you'll listen more & talk less. Good luck to ya.


----------



## Mordekyle (May 20, 2014)

Mordekyle said:


> I started in a similar way to you.
> 
> Hanging out in this forum has been the single most beneficial activity I have done
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I’m still wet behind the ears at four years in. 

I tell people I have no business being in business. I had little experience in the trades, and zero in sales, but teaching school was too stressful and I couldn’t do it anymore. I started my business with $3000 in the bank, a few tools, fewer contacts, and zero jobs on the horizon.

But God has provided for me. Friends needed a deck. Realtor friends from church asked if I could remove wallpaper and paint a bathroom. Others needed a fence. I discovered by trial and error about what I need to charge, what jobs are profitable and enjoyable, and what I should specialize in. I learn new techniques, skills, and shortcuts in every small job I complete.


Think of the jabs and ribbing you receive here as toughening you up. A jumping in or hazing, if you will. You won’t last in business or as a boss if you have thin skin on the forum, much less in real life.


You’ll find the medicine you need here, sans sugar. Stick around. 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

RE: The English Major joke, most still owe their student loan principle decades after graduating.... they will never ADD anything to our nations GDP,

But the classes that taught me more were freshmen English 111-2...

Sign up for Macro Econ at a night class...

Start reading the WSJ and business pages everyday. That English Major University was and is full of anti-capitalism ideas (Memes) you need to expunge from your mind set. Burn the Che Guevara Tee-shirts and peel the Bernie 2016 stickers off the Subaru bumper.

Trim the Beard? 

Get a banker and accountant to grow with.

Study painting AND business, Painting to gross more, Business to KEEP more of what you make....

Do your books EVERY month so you KNOW where you are at NOW, no X-Mass bankruptcy surprises.

Get a summer time helper to bridge your way to a full time assistant?

Wear your PPE: we don't need any more physical wrecks in their 50s trying to hold out to retirement age stumbling around the job sites.

Nothing sadder then a fried painter still trying to work.

Wear your masks, so your friends and neighbors don't have to take care of you after you Gorked yourself.


----------



## Major87 (Dec 1, 2018)

Last two were appreciated. Thanks. I like the useful tidbits. I can only imagine working around some of those products for years without wearing a mask. 

If you guys haven’t read, I acknowledge the advice in my posts. I’m grateful for the thought spent. And I’m allowed to respond. 

If I share personal sentiments, they’re just details and not bragging. If they’re not important to you, don’t acknowledge them. I haven’t blamed any thing on my customer, so some of these angry responses still feel a little misguided. Lash out if you need to that’s fine.

And if griz is a great builder, that’s good. Wouldn’t know but wouldn’t think he isn’t just because he short hands responses. That’s just his responses. If there was something for me to use in his responses, okay. But that whole bully thing, “let them hit you and turn the other cheek” strength bs— come on now. The work and field does that enough, the mistake I owned— I just asked for guidance. If that upsets people, sorry. If you need to respond by lashing out at the new guy, okay. Do what ever you wanna spend time on. I’m really just looking for helpful advice and if I’m not familiar with forum formats or if I should be submitting to responses from people I don’t know who tell me to quit or shut up, I probably won’t. And I can’t say I’ve ever really joined a forum. So again, appreciate the responses. I have a feeling people are just going to keep responding in which ever way they need to so I’ll check back and have a chuckle and take some notes on the good ones.


----------



## Big Johnson (Jun 2, 2017)

Major87 said:


> Last two were appreciated. Thanks. I like the useful tidbits. I can only imagine working around some of those products for years without wearing a mask.
> 
> If you guys haven’t read, I acknowledge the advice in my posts. I’m grateful for the thought spent. And I’m allowed to respond.
> 
> ...




I see you’re in Kzoo, I think business is going to be tough down there for a painter unless you can get some good commercial gigs. Painters don’t make much up here so I’m sure it worse there. I don’t know any homeowners who hire painters. Everyone diy’s it. Apartments managers are cheap too. Everyone knows someone who will paint a room for $50, an apt unit for $250 or a house interior for $1000, they still choose to diy. Good luck. 

Consider a move to NJ, Easy G makes $800/day painting interiors and has to sneak out in the middle of the night to keep up with demand.


----------



## Major87 (Dec 1, 2018)

Yeah, you’re right. Residential is tough without good marketing to actually land those bids. I’ve paid a lot for a few. And most DIY half the project and essentially sub the rest out to me. The rental stuff, it’s there. I’ve had 2 walk throughs with property management companies that wanted to pay exactly that —250 a unit. I agreed to do it but of course, there’s always someone cheaper. Most people I know who do those units don’t even cut in, they just throw a gallon at the wall n call it a day. 

Wouldn’t mind 800 a day though. Consistently.


----------



## Major87 (Dec 1, 2018)

And the liberal English major joke was pretty good. Still got a Bernie Funko POP on my desk at home and yes, there’s a beard. Though, I was raised by staunch conservatives. I’ve had a good mix of influences. I wouldn’t say that going to college made me some SJW or anything. I don’t really do identity politics; I like things that work. If that’s right or left, that’s fine. I appreciate the self awareness to see that a lot of these comments are projecting at a mirror of younger selfs. I’m fine with that, and in no way do I have a need or want to solve that. It’s just self awareness. The same way I’m employing self awareness by saying I made a mistake and need help figuring out how to better my business. 

But I’m dropping the defenses from here on out. I’ll keep my personal details from my posts moving forward.


----------



## META (Apr 9, 2015)

Some individuals like to smear the blood when they see it on the floor. Let it roll off and take any truth from the comments. 

I think the husband talked the wife into letting you off the hook being he recognized they got more than they payed for. Either way, move on, you cannot please everyone. This business is full of situations where the client will ask for something you shouldn't give for free....either from ignorance or other.

Remodel work almost always includes additional site visits and set up costs. Don't overlook that time sink and charge accordingly. 

I once had a client complain I charged T&M for hanging and finishing 2, 4x8 sheets of drywall that were cut up to finish a couple of door openings and closet areas. He asked if drywall was $(X) a sqft. I laughed and told him I'd hire anyone he could find that would make multiple trips to piece meal two sheets of drywall for a square foot price. Educate people into your prices when necessary.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

Captain Sullyberger?: Checklists, bids, jobs materials, pack lists, and clean up lists.

record failed bids, 

Track material usage rates, gallons to Square feet, misc. supplies, covers, brushes, and spay nozzles...

whenever possible keep working with your tools, and have supplies delivered.... 30 minutes a day of added production is retiring a decade earlier... * pack your lunch*, drink your homes tap water.....retire another 5 years earlier
Plenty of stages and ladders...


A bread truck/ panel van for work. maybe a walk-in trailer?


----------



## Gatorgrizz27 (Nov 1, 2015)

Read this thread to understand some of the animosity towards your pricing and business practices. 

https://www.contractortalk.com/f16/...oping-your-brand-making-name-yourself-413567/

All of my work is word of mouth and referral based, and 95% of my clients don’t shop other bids. Of the few that do, my prices are generally higher and then I get to go into the quality differences, what I include that others don’t, there will be no “extra costs”, etc. It’s not a big deal typically but it costs me extra time. 

On one set of built ins, I gave the client my list of recommended painters, she opted to go with “a guy she knew from church that paints” instead. He didn’t prime anything and rolled over it all with wall paint. When they came out rough and tacky I got to go back and sand them because I doubt he owned a sander, let alone one that connected to a Hepa vac, and then walk him through how to actually paint a cabinet. He took all the doors off, mixed them up, and then didn’t paint the bottoms/tops of some, so I got to sort out reinstalling that too. 

I looked at a job last week that I declined, a girl wanted a wall removed in a townhouse she was buying. Two other contractors had looked at it and failed to notice it was load bearing. 

Even if you aren’t competing against them, guys that can’t deliver what is promised set the stage for the rest of us. The customer starts out more hesitant, has more questions, etc. 

I take my work and deadlines seriously and in the last 3 months I did an install the day before Hurrciane Michael, one before Thanksgiving with a week of rain, and another one this week that the client was blown away by me actually completing it on time. You could say that is a good thing for my reputation but I dealt with multiple phone calls asking how things were going, if we were on track, etc, that would have been unnecessary had they dealt with competent people in the past.


----------



## JFM constr (Jul 26, 2014)

your over thinking it .tires my ass ,reminds me of what has gone on in my head to much . the times i cut corners weigh on me forever , so i am in agreement fix it .
your customers will work them selves out with time . maynot happen right away ,just do your job ,keep focused on the future . some of the advice your hearing -you just will not understand or be able to take .just the way it is .or has been for me .
keep posting here ,keep reading others experiences .you will get your way down


----------



## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Good lord, I just read this whole thread from beginning to end and it gave me a headache.

To Op, correct me if I am wrong, but you were hired to paint ceilings.
You only planned on one coat and it doesn't look good?

You are worried because the customer won't let you come back and straighten the work. You are worried they might bad mouth you?


They gave you a referral for another job, so they won't be badmouthing you. Make sure you go above and beyond to give customer 2 a good job. If you do that they will go back and thank customer 1 for referring you and then refer you to somebody else.

Every job is different. Set up and clean up can take more time than doing a small job. You have to watch for that stuff when you go to look at the job. Is it a bare room, or are there priceless heirlooms you have to work around?


----------



## JFM constr (Jul 26, 2014)

wow I think I missed a bunch of what was said .It is a bit confusing .I will not read it again though .


----------



## Major87 (Dec 1, 2018)

All good input. My pricing is definitely experimental at this point. I’ve tried different things over the past year, some have worked well— some haven’t. 

All of the property management companies and landlords I’ve contracted for make it clear they’re price shopping (most go straight to low ball negotiating), but I wouldn’t say my residential customers give that impression. Each time it’s been to clean up someone’s mess or I was the only bid they lined up. I generate a lot of my business off Thumbtack, which gives insights on what my competition is pricing, who was fastest and slowest to respond, etc. And all of the homeowners I’ve done work for, I’m the only one they schedule a walk-through with. I think the 2 biggest influences in me using discounts this year has been my inexperience and the fluctuations in work load. To be honest, this last customer was priced lower than usual because I wanted to get an in on this lake front market. But I was also super slow. I needed the work. And the bottom line made sense until the end.

To answer Tim, in short— no that wasn’t really the case. It was more like we left things out of the bid (hallway, ceilings, parts of the upstairs) because the customer had to discuss what she wanted with her husband. We went at the bid in “phases” which, in retrospect, should have been a red flag. But I didn’t see a problem; she would tell me what she needed done which days and she’d pay me in cash at days end. The problem occurred when the job was done and the customer realized she’d been paying me per item on the bid (ie upstairs walls =350, upstairs ceiling=250,etc) without taking the discount off. That put me in a position to either have to pay her back money (which I didn’t want to do) or give her the ceilings upstairs for the discount I offered. The ceilings got 1 coat, took 2 afternoons to do and involved a lot more ladder work than I expected. It was a lot and totaled out to the discount. So when the first coat didn’t land (which shoulda been expected, I know)— I tried to talk to the customer about where I was at with costs. She said well you said you’d do it, I said you’re right but I figured I would at least try to talk to you about it. Said I’ll finish the work but all of it will be out of pocket point. She said cool thanks. Told me the next day that I didn’t need to come back to finish the ceilings, that it was okay and they’d leave my materials outside for me to pick up.

It was just a weird end. That’s all. Sure, I’m not complaining about not having to do the rest of all of what needed to be done. And no, I don’t think they’ll bad mouth me. It was just one of those less than ideal endings that felt like I didn’t have good follow-through. Or like I over promised. That’s my learning curve. I definitely over thought it and it wasn’t really that big of a deal I guess. I’m just trying to aim at leaving better impressions on my customers and my work without it costing me as much as that did. 

It sounds like a lot of what I’m missing is confidence in my pricing, as well as knowing what factors should negatively and positively affect my pricing. I appreciate all the feedback.


----------



## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

Your mistake is going back to the ho and talking about your price.

Once a contract is signed for a set price, it's none of the customer's business what you are or are not making on the job.
It's your business and your confidential information.



Flip the coin. If you really made out on the job are you going to stand there and tell the customer how much you cleaned their clock?


----------



## MeanWeen (Nov 11, 2017)

gmedia said:


> Major87,
> 
> There is nothing desperate about discounts, etc. As you already know, they can be strategic and very smart.
> 
> ...





Major87 said:


> Oh internet. Okay.
> 
> Gmedia or Chris— that was the gem of this whole thread. Thank you for that. I like the idea of using a streamlined software like that. I didn’t know that was a thing and I will definitely do some research on that moving forward. I like the idea of packages; providing the customer with options that don’t jeopardize my bottom line and profitability while at the same time, using techniques similar to discount where the customer feels like they’re getting a deal of sorts. All of that was super valuable so thanks for taking the time to share that.






Gmedia has given you the worst possible advice for someone in your current position and it is the one post that you are taking seriously. If you were to take the above advice and do the exact opposite you might have a fighting chance of not going broke.

The first thing you need to know is your overhead. Make sure it is a real number that actually means something, not something that you made up so that you can justify this discount you are offering. 

Next thing you need to do is get rid of all of your discounts and special rates etc. Makes no sense in your line of work, all it does is complicates things for yourself and the customer as you are finding out. Above advice about having tiered rates and special packages is just plain dumb.

*Worst Package*- Painter may show up only 2 days out of the week...may or may not have room painted in desired colors(depends on what paint is left over from previous jobs)...may or may not finish job

*Best Package* - Painter will show up 4 days a week guaranteed...Customer may choose paint color...may or may not finish job(depends on how previous discount strategy worked)

Don't rush out and purchase a fancy estimating program. Again keep it simple and learn how to properly price your work without any fancy discounts or programs. Once you know how much your overhead is, and how much it costs you to do the work properly including materials use that amount with your desired profit and give the customer a clear and well written proposal that lays out what you are providing and the price you are providing it for.

Keep things simple as possible for you and the client. Think long and hard about hiring employees as they can cost you money just as easily as making you money. Make sure your pricing is where you actually need it to be, not where you think it should be at or what you heard other people are at. 

Do that and if you are a hard worker and a good quality painter you should have a good shot at it. Good Luck!


----------



## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Discounts for most things are BS and most everyone knows it... the only time you should reduce the quote is when the customer gives up something at the same time and the customer has no idea how deep that discount well actually goes... 

Otherwise the ONLY place for it to come out of is YOUR POCKET... everyone else still expects to be paid...


----------



## Major87 (Dec 1, 2018)

MeanWeen— sage advice. Very true. I like the way you put that. Keep it simple, cut the discounts. All things I need to get better at or stop doing.

KAP— true as well. I’ve learned using these discounts aren’t advantageous. All but a few of the situations have either gotten muddy af or costly. Neither are good. 

Appreciate everyone’s input and feedback.


----------

