# Please read.



## daArch (Jun 8, 2007)

premierpainter said:


> Just finished laying floors in a house for a customer. She wanted a price to paint a spare bedroom a Master bedroom and bath and a hallway....my price...$2765.00. She had John paint it for $150 a room and she bought the paint. I laugh and could care less if he wants to paint it for nothing. Who cares about this John you speak of?! Care about yourself and stop worrying about everybody else. Maybe this guy can live on 6 hundo a week and why am I to be concerned


What's the old quote? Something about the sourness of a bad job lasts longer than the sweetness of a cheap price. ?? (someone please quote the adage correctly)


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Hey! DaArch

"The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the *sweetness* of a low *price* is forgotten." :thumbsup:


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## Any Season (Nov 19, 2007)

premierpainter said:


> JShe had John paint it for $150 a room and she bought the paint. I laugh and could care less if he wants to paint it for nothing. Who cares about this John you speak of?! Care about yourself and stop worrying about everybody else. Maybe this guy can live on 6 hundo a week and why am I to be concerned


I agree, and as callous as it sounds this problem CAN be solved by throwing money at it. Spend more on advertising and the packaging of your product. 'John' cannot afford to do all of the little things on what he is charging. That is my gameplan at least. I feel if 'John' tries to cut into my business by trying to change the pricing landscape...I will simply put the image, marketing and perception landscape out of his price range while delivering a better product and stomp 'john' all the way back to his old Labor Ready job. That's just my perspective.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

premierpainter said:


> Just finished laying floors in a house for a customer. She wanted a price to paint a spare bedroom a Master bedroom and bath and a hallway....my price...$2765.00. She had John paint it for $150 a room and she bought the paint. I laugh and could care less if he wants to paint it for nothing. * Who cares about this John you speak of?! Care about yourself and stop worrying about everybody else.* Maybe this guy can live on 6 hundo a week and why am I to be concerned


:thumbsup:

I aagree with this post 100%


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## daArch (Jun 8, 2007)

silvertree said:


> Hey! DaArch
> 
> "The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the *sweetness* of a low *price* is forgotten." :thumbsup:


Thanks Silvertree. I gotta brand that in my brain - unfortunately it's impossible to brand a vacuum :laughing:


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## DPainting (Nov 1, 2005)

I don't mind 'helping' the next fellow with the same goal I have. If they truly have the gut for it then it's worth my time to share the knowledge. If it's just some dude trying to bank a couple of bucks with low balling, then they won't get a thing of knowledge from me. I believe in the most part in learning by trying. If someone is too lazy to do the grunt work and see how things play out then they really don't have their heart in it and shouldn't be part of it. Ok i've officially talked to much bs now LOL sorry for the ramble.

Anyway I don't bother trying to do a better price for someone who got a another bid way below my bid. "Hey good luck with that and I hope they do a good job" is what I say and walk away. I'll give some people a break if its a repeat customer with plenty of work for me.


Quality and Qauntitiy a choice you have to make.


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## paint_booger (Jun 15, 2007)

DPainting ... there was one word in your note that struck a chord in all the good people here ... "HEART"!

The people who have "HEART" have what it takes to be leaders in the industry.

You've got it!


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## Nigel S. Shorts (Jul 21, 2007)

Aren't John's guys who go go around screwing everyone, and then end up with the Clap? And deservedly so, I might add...:jester:


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## JCpresto (Dec 14, 2007)

Well since this is one of the lowest investment trades, you're going to have alot of 'fly by night' painters. Everyones a painter. And if theyre flying around underbidding and snatching little BS jobs than thats a good thing, because the customers who bite those prices are the ones I dont want!! 

It's tough to keep the ball rolling when the holidays come around, especially with an expensive nut. It will come around in the spring it always does.

There's alot of whining and crying going on about the new "john" and I have a sick feeling Im being grouped in being young and all. You guys are a trip. Instead of getting off your ass to get work, you sit on the internet and complain about the next guy.

In my thread I made my point clear that I had my own pricing technique (handed down to me from one of the most succesful painters in the enitire NE BTW) And you guys still pounded me. I was just curious, in a non threatening way, and it shows how insecure alot of these guys are. If these "johns" are bums and cant paint to save their lives, and your the almighty painter, then what are you so worried about?


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## daArch (Jun 8, 2007)

Not meaning to offend anyone, but for some reason this reminded me of this thread. We *ALL* can laugh at ourselves, can't we ?


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## KellyPainting (May 30, 2006)

First off, Mr. JCpresto, I never replied to your thread, you responded to mine.

2nd...I never pounded you, you pounded me.


There is not allot of whining about this topic, infact if you scan all the post, there is an overwhelming amount of posts whining about what to charge.

Just curious, What do the letters J.C stand for?


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## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

I think their are more jhons on this bb, and they dont even realise it . lol

Your a jhon in my book if you dont have workers comp and liability ins.

Your a jhin in my book if you dont have a buisness licence. this list goes on and on.

Just because your a good painter does not mean your not a jhon 

Jhon's were here long before any of us, and will be here long after we are gone.

Take a long deep look in the mirror just to make sure your not a jhon lol


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

Dave Mac said:


> Your a jhon in my book if you dont have workers comp
> 
> Your a jhon in my book if you dont have a buisness licence.
> 
> Take a long deep look in the mirror just to make sure your not a jhon lol


so every sp, llc or llp with no employees in unlicensed states are jhons


HORSE$H!T


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## donb1959 (Dec 9, 2004)

Since I've been in business I've noticed a trend, the slow times, and these are slow times, tend to weed out the "fly by nights". Yes and there will be a new crop next year. And as the economy weakens there will be an extra influx of "paint contractors", since I've started, I've sold on value, not price, and this is what continues to put me ahead of the crowd.


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## Joewho (Sep 20, 2006)

Never mind the johns, what about the juans?

Why can't you just hire up the johns? Big business regularly buys out the competition. NO?

It just sounds like there are only two choices, either work for one of you guys, at 15/hr. or they can go hack for 15/hr.

I don't like either one.


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## JCpresto (Dec 14, 2007)

KellyPainting said:


> First off, Mr. JCpresto, I never replied to your thread, you responded to mine.
> 
> 2nd...I never pounded you, you pounded me.
> 
> ...


 
Not pounding you, just a little confused. Who ever asked you (or whoever) how to bid a job?

JC is my initials. My company name. Licensed in insured in the state of Florida. But Im still a 'john'. As long as Im young and new, thats what the oldder contractors will see me as. A pain in the ass. One more bum you might have to compete against. :thumbsup:


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## daArch (Jun 8, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> I think their are more jhons on this bb, and they dont even realise it . lol
> 
> Your a jhon in my book if you dont have workers comp and liability ins.
> 
> ...



Dave, Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine to think you are absolutely wrong.

In the past I have been incorporated, workers comp for all, (no licence offered for painters in Mass in 1983), liability insurance, etc etc. When the paint fumes finally started giving me medical issues and I went to 100% wallpaper. I realized it was better business as a sole proprietor to keep the costs down. Not incorporated. No requirement for SP WC in Mass. But I do got liab ins. 

I've been on both sides of the fence, and I know a "john" when I see one - - - and he ain't staring at me in the mirror. 


BTW, who is this jhon you repeatedly mention :laughing:


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## premierpainter (Dec 29, 2006)

daArch said:


> BTW, who is this jhon you repeatedly mention :laughing:


 
I was thinking the same thing-- :no:


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## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

daArch said:


> Dave, Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine to think you are absolutely wrong.
> 
> In the past I have been incorporated, workers comp for all, (no licence offered for painters in Mass in 1983), liability insurance, etc etc. When the paint fumes finally started giving me medical issues and I went to 100% wallpaper. I realized it was better business as a sole proprietor to keep the costs down. Not incorporated. No requirement for SP WC in Mass. But I do got liab ins.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:, I probally didnt come across the way i wanted, Everyone probaly once was a Jhon, before they became a buisnes man. I know I was. I think the Jhon, Kelly was referring to is a newbie, learning the hard way from the school of hard knox. I have done some of my best quality work, when i was a newbie, charging penuts. I cant stand the way this board treats newbies to the trade, instead of trying to help the newbie, they try to make them feel wothless.:no: Everybody was a newbie at one time, 

Jhon = Newbie

jmho, it all good, over here


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

I dont see the big deal of helping a guy in another city or state on here who asks a question. Now someone in my town is another story, I wont help anyone around here with anything. I dont care if a guy in California knows everything I do and what I charge, he isnt in my market so he doesnt matter to me.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

KJC said:


> After reading every post in this thread, there seems to be a general consensus that the "Johns" are not charging enough. I am just wondering if anyone has thought about this the other way around? Might the anti-Johns be charging too much?
> 
> To give you a little background, most on this thread would probably consider me a John. Back in college (summers of 2002 and 2003), I worked for one of "those" college painting companies (which I assume many of you hate, and probably for good reason) and was very successful. We charged $28 per hour, offered a 2-year warranty, workers comp, and liability insurance. I entered this opportunity knowing very little about exterior painting. However, I learned fast and I can honstly say that I was very proud of the work my crew did. It was all exterior and very good quality. I worked closely with my Sherwin Williams store to learn what I didn't know and perfect what I did know.
> 
> ...



KJc, your way of base, when a ho is paying a company a rate of $50 per man hr, Its not the actually amount the painter working for the company will receive.

Just because you have a masters degree, doesn't mean your worth anything. :no:

Your only worth what you think your worth. And can get paid for.:clap:

You should get a better grip of what it cost to run a buisness, before posting such insults.:no:

goodlucl to you, it sounds like you have it all figured out, go for it.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

KJC said:


> Why not hire people and pay them say $15 per hour (much higher than most jobs), bill them out at $35 and make $20 for every hour a crew man works? Say you have 8 crew members working 240 days a year, that is $192,000


Why not hire 8000 crew members and make 192 million?


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

KJC said:


> I am a graduate of a reputable 4-year university and I have a masters in accountancy. I do not even make that much money per hour, so why should they?


you better give back your degree...




KJC said:


> This leads me to my point in that I think a lot of contractors have an inflated idea of how much their time is worth. Why does one think they are worth what they charge? I have read posts on paintalk.com that say $35 per hour is low. That is appalling to me! Why not take a different angle? Why not hire people and pay them say $15 per hour (much higher than most jobs), bill them out at $35 and make $20 for every hour a crew man works? Say you have 8 crew members working 240 days a year, that is $192,000 before operating expenses...not bad. Many members on here appear to work alone and that just seems silly because the industry will not support an annual hourly rate increase year over year that is consistent with inflation plus increase in cost of living. Not to mention everyone probably wants to give themselves a raise each year. At some point, we will see growth in hourly rates level-off or even decline. That time might be now in that people cannot find the equity in their homes that they used to in order to pay to have their interior or exteriors painted. Our economy in many areas will not support this continued growth, thus yielding price as a more significant factor in determining which contractor to use.
> 
> I do not believe that any homeowner should have to pay $50+ per man hour to get a quality paint job! The more and more people that realize they can charge this or slightly below it, the more Johns you will have in the painting world. This will move supply higher while demand is low and prices will inevitably go down.


gas is $3/gal, milk is $4/gal, a new van costs $20,000, health insurance is $1000/month for a family, etc, etc, etc...what world are you in?

Rutgers is a reputable University...in my time there, I don't remember there being any courses in "accountancy"

you have no concept of the basic principles of business...my accountant bills out at over $100/hr...and I go to him...he has no down time and no travel time...

do yourself a favor...get an education in business...then...and only then...come back and post...

at this time you are a living, breathing example of what Mark Twain was referring to when he said " "It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt."


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

mahlere said:


> you better give back your degree...
> 
> 
> Rutgers is a reputable University...in my time there, I don't remember there being any courses in "*accountancy*"
> ...


 
True, i never heard of "Masters in* Accountancy*" degree in any other Univ. also. Maybe he mean ... "Master in *Accounting*"??


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

probably...but one would expect a person with a Masters in Accounting to know that they don't have a masters in accountancy...


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

One might also expect that someone learning his craft from College Pro (and the guy at his local paint store), might not not know too much about painting.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm glad we ran him outta here on a rail!


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## johnthepainter (Feb 23, 2006)

that hut he painted looked absolutlely sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet,,,good job


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

KJC said:


> *I am a graduate of a reputable 4-year university and I* *have a masters in accountancy.* hire people and pay them say $15 per hour (much higher than most jobs), bill them out at $35 and make $20 for every hour a crew man works? Say you have 8 crew members working 240 days a year, that is $192,000 before operating expenses...not bad.


:laughing: :laughing: *masters in accountancy??? *:laughing: :laughing: $20 per hour on each crew member. 8 crew members, 8 hours per day, 240 days per year = $ 307,200.00 You were only off by $115,200.00


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## skyhook (Mar 17, 2007)

KJC said:


> After reading every post in this thread, there seems to be a general consensus that the "Johns" are not charging enough. I am just wondering if anyone has thought about this the other way around? Might the anti-Johns be charging too much?
> 
> To give you a little background, most on this thread would probably consider me a John. Back in college (summers of 2002 and 2003), I worked for one of "those" college painting companies (which I assume many of you hate, and probably for good reason) and was very successful. We charged $28 per hour, offered a 2-year warranty, workers comp, and liability insurance. I entered this opportunity knowing very little about exterior painting. However, I learned fast and I can honstly say that I was very proud of the work my crew did. It was all exterior and very good quality. I worked closely with my Sherwin Williams store to learn what I didn't know and perfect what I did know.
> 
> ...


*If BS were snowflakes, you'd be a blizzard.*


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## KellyPainting (May 30, 2006)

I just love this place.


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

I talk about some of the people here on my other (non-construction related)board...they'd like to come over, but I'm keeping you apart.


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## fixerup (Jan 2, 2008)

KellyPainting said:


> "John is the guy who doesn't paint for a living... just a guy who needs a job and has painted a bathroom once. He hears that a neighbor is looking for something done and he jumps on it... he can go to home depot get a brush and a roller,borrow a ladder and get started.... the only thing he needs is to know how much to bid against.
> 
> This "John" isn't your competition. Anyone who lives in his neighborhood couldn't begin to afford you anyway. In his neighborhood the people generally do there own painting and if they are unable, they look for "John" and they're happy to find him.


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## KJC (Jan 4, 2008)

Steve Richards said:


> I'm glad we ran him outta here on a rail!


Sorry for the delayed response...had other things going on this weekend.



skyhook said:


> :laughing: :laughing: *masters in accountancy??? *:laughing: :laughing: $20 per hour on each crew member. 8 crew members, 8 hours per day, 240 days per year = $ 307,200.00 You were only off by $115,200.00


That you are correct! Changed my assumptions in doing my calculation and forgot to update. My apologies! 



Dave Mac said:


> KJc, your way of base, when a ho is paying a company a rate of $50 per man hr, Its not the actually amount the painter working for the company will receive.
> 
> Just because you have a masters degree, doesn't mean your worth anything. :no:
> 
> ...


I completely under the concept of costs and bill rates. I was not implying that just because you bill at $50 per hour means thats what the painter makes per hour. Also, I was not saying that my masters degree implies that I should make $70 an hour in the painting world. My accounting experience has no bearing on the painting world.



SelfContract said:


> True, i never heard of "Masters in* Accountancy*" degree in any other Univ. also. Maybe he mean ... "Master in *Accounting*"??


Many of you have not heard of it, and that is ok! However, just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Also, accountancy and accounting can be used interchangeably if you so desire. Those of you who came to the grand conclusion that because you never heard of it that it doesn't exist did a good job of proving my point! 

Look, I am not hear to make enemies. I joined contractor talk to help in areas where I can help and learn about paint techniques where I have little knowledge/experience. In my post, I was just speaking out as an individual looking to get back into the industry and sticking up for them. Each of you can run your business however you want. Paint yourself or have workers paint for you, whatever works. At the end of the day, I posed one primary question: What qualifications do you have to bill at the rate you do? Nobody even touched this topic. Its a simple question and many of you blew up about it. Ever thing that maybe if homeowners had a better understanding of the costs to run a painting business, they would be more willing to pay it. Common sense says if someone is willing to pay $70/hr, why bill at $60, so kudos to those who are able to get this rate. 

At the end of the day, business is business and one formula does not work for everyone. I have my idea of how I would like to run my business and each of you have yours. If it helps you sleep at night or get over the fact that work is slow, then go ahead and make fun of my business model. It has worked in the past and it will work again. As I said before, I am starting this business for a form of passive income, not to make a living. 

Best of luck in your work picking-up in the New Year!


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

KJC said:


> S
> I completely under the concept of costs and bill rates. I was not implying that just because you bill at $50 per hour means thats what the painter makes per hour. Also, I was not saying that my masters degree implies that I should make $70 an hour in the painting world. My accounting experience has no bearing on the painting world.
> 
> 
> ...


i stand corrected regarding the accountancy, learn something new every day...

but to answer the question...


kjc said:


> At the end of the day, I posed one primary question: What qualifications do you have to bill at the rate you do?


gas is $3/gal, milk is $4/gal, a new van costs $20,000, health insurance is $1000/month for a family, etc, etc, etc...what world are you in?

i don't know where you are located, but around here, $15/hr is poverty...if you are not earning $65K+ for a family of 3, you are not surviving..

so, for one, to expect to find good employees for $15/hr is a little far fetched...2, the very idea of it is the reason that painters don't earn what they should...3, the risk of running a business, even a painting business, is incredible, if you are not going to be justly rewarded why do it? 4, if more painters would charge more, and operate like a real business, people would be more willing to pay...5, is it really your goal to operate a non-profit organization?


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## KellyPainting (May 30, 2006)

What happened in the masters in accountancy? 
All the accountants I know seem to have work.
Did it sow down?


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## MakDeco (Jan 17, 2007)

Most of the respectable guys here are trying to "make a living" and be successful not looking for a form of passive income. I bill my rate based on my experience, the quality of my work, my relationship with my repeat customers, the fact myself and guy show up when scheduled to be somewhere, return phones call in a timely manner and been in business of 15yrs and never had to advertise other then giving out business cards and postcards to current customers to hand out to friends, neighbors, etc.

I also bill out my rate base on the fact that I have been painting since I was 16 and have no other job, want no other job, enjoy my job and feel I, the quality of my work are both worth it!

Good luck finding good painters to work at 15$, you can always go the illegal route or hire the drunk, crank heads that are out there, they may work for 10$ hr and you can make more money per man, and see how many repeat customers you get.

I do not post to this board much anymore, cause there are few respectable guys here and they know who they are, but most lately are guys here w/ no idea on what they are doing, and trying to pick the brains of the guys who and looking to under bid the good ones.

let the bashing begin :clap:


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## essrmo (May 2, 2007)

KJC said:


> Look, I am not hear to make enemies. I joined contractor talk to help in areas where I can
> What qualifications do you have to bill at the rate you do?
> Common sense says if someone is willing to pay $70/hr, why bill at $60, so kudos to those who are able to get this rate.


lawyers and accountants bill by the hour after the work is done because they don't have anything in the job except paper and pencils. 
contractors use the prevailing hourly rate as a baseline for estimates of a fixed price contract. 
if i land the job, i make sure it gets done in less than the estimated time.


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## SelfContract (Dec 6, 2007)

essrmo said:


> lawyers and accountants bill by the hour after the work is done because they don't have anything in the job except paper and pencils.
> contractors use the prevailing hourly rate as a baseline for estimates of a fixed price contract.
> if i land the job, i make sure it gets done in less than the estimated time.


Correct. First, lawyers & accountants have their *clients (mental service only*), and contractors have their *customers (sales & physical service).* :thumbsup: Second, lawyers & accountants must make up their billable hours to their clients for their mental/brain services, *but contractors can not make-up* bills per service hour because their customers already knew that there are so material/fixtures to buy, how much, and how many hours you work on at their house/premises, *can not lied about that aspect after the facts*, etc. :no:


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## donnag16 (Jan 17, 2008)

:jester:I can understand that most companies are slow at this time and work is hard to find at this time. I worked for a company for 11 years as a commercial estimator got laid off to this slow season. But i always got the company work until the overhead of the company went up and the competition got the jobs that we should have had. And trying to find a job in my field sucks because no one is hiring.


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