# Hawk or pan



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

blacktop said:


> Wicked maybe..... Sloppy ..yes! but Fast?


The real pro's are pretty clean...




jb4211 said:


> Isn't "wicked" anything just limited to the Boston area?? I hear they're wicked smart up there. lol


My daughter used that term thjis weekend and I can't get it out of my head....:laughing:


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## Red Adobe (Jul 26, 2008)

yeah don't judge all of us by the mess the guys in those vids make...


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## CrpntrFrk (Oct 25, 2008)

Red Adobe said:


> yeah don't judge all of us by the mess the guys in those vids make...


I don't judge anyone by the mess they make :no:.........because I am pretty messy.:laughing:


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

griz said:


> The real pro's are pretty clean...
> 
> My daughter used that term thjis weekend and I can't get it out of my head....:laughing:


Every time I hear it, I can't help but think of the movie, " Good Will Hunting"


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

I like the hawk...no pan...hawk...no pan ...hawk I don't know I use both


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## mski (Apr 4, 2013)

CrpntrFrk said:


> Pan and knife for drywall. Hawk and trowel is for stucco. Not a in general statement, just how I use the tools.


Same here.


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## madmax718 (Dec 7, 2012)

I tried the pan, only once. I have to end up doing small amounts of drywall here and there, but I use a hawk.


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

madmax718 said:


> I tried the pan, only once. I have to end up doing small amounts of drywall here and there, but I use a hawk.


I use a hawk too ,butt ...a pan is good for wet touch up mud and mixing hot mud for small job...everyone should use a pan


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## madmax718 (Dec 7, 2012)

I will give it a whirl again...


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

.....:thumbsup:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Must have been holding a pan when you took the picture, since all your hawks are sitting there....


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

hdavis said:


> Must have been holding a pan when you took the picture, since all your hawks are sitting there....


I was holding the camera!!!!:laughing:


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

blacktop said:


> .....:thumbsup:


and a new knife:clap: moore where is your pan


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

Hey, Moore, did you ever find one of those big composite hawks?


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

mnld said:


> Hey, Moore, did you ever find one of those big composite hawks?


No ..I haven't .. I've googled the hell out of a 13x13 composite hawk with no luck. It seems that Marshall town is the only one that makes them.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

blacktop said:


> No ..I haven't .. I've googled the hell out of a 13x13 composite hawk with no luck. *It seems that Marshall town is the only one that makes them*.


Did you boycott them or someting? :blink:


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## Agility (Nov 29, 2013)

jb4211 said:


> Isn't "wicked" anything just limited to the Boston area?? I hear they're wicked smart up there. lol


Wicked smaht, actually. We're even smahtah upta Maine ways.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

blacktop said:


> .....:thumbsup:


I mix and match all of them. :thumbup1:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Sir Mixalot said:


> Did you boycott them or someting? :blink:


:laughing: No Paul ! It's just every place I find the composite hawks all they [Marshall town] have are the 12x12. When I do find a 13x13 Their out of stock. :sad:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Check out this monster! 16x16 magnesium plasters hawk [Kraft]..

I thought I wanted It ! But then I found out...I DON'T!
After loading her up It's like holding an Elephant in one hand!!:laughing:


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## Snobnd (Jul 1, 2008)

I use hide custom cut knives and I have 5 trowels different sizes.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Betcha can't do this with a pan! :laughing:


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

love my hawks as well...I do like my pan for touch up and mixing up hot mud...every tool has its strong points :thumbsup:


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

Piece of cake.
But this takes talent.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

blacktop said:


> Betcha can't do this with a pan! :laughing:


Don't need to. All I need is this.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Don't need to. All I need is this.
> 
> View attachment 118870


But Is that workable ??? Plus ...I had to throw a cigarette to take my pic...!!! I could have held another knife !!!!!! :laughing:..And....I'm holding 4 ! Your holding 3!:whistling


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I just put them in my back pocket


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

jlsconstruction said:


> I just put them in my back pocket


You can stuff a pan In your back pocket? :blink:


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

blacktop said:


> You can stuff a pan In your back pocket? :blink:



Screw the pan, I fill my pockets with mud.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

blacktop said:


> But Is that workable ??? Plus ...I had to throw a cigarette to take my pic...!!! I could have held another knife !!!!!! :laughing:..And....I'm holding 4 ! Your holding 3!:whistling


Like I said, I don't need 4, so why does it matter if I can hold 4? You probably could hold another between your butt cheeks, but if you don't need it, it's just a neat trick, especially if can get a tight pull that way. :laughing:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I just carry the whole box around, keeps me from having to fill up as often.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Like I said, I don't need 4, so why does it matter if I can hold 4? You probably could hold another between your butt cheeks, but if you don't need it, it's just a neat trick, especially if can get a tight pull that way. :laughing:


Your right Rob ! 3 blades and a hawk Is all that's needed.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Ever heard the term ....Hang A pan?:whistling


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

blacktop said:


> Ever heard the term ....Hang A pan?:whistling


I so !!!got pics tomorrow!!!!


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

mike d. said:


> What do you guys use,,,,hawk and trowel or pan and knife? Also if you use a trowel and hawk, how do you apply paper tape?:thumbsup:


Really?


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## MSLiechty (Sep 13, 2010)

Makes me want to try a hawk. Out west we all use pans and knife. Must be a regional thing never seen anyone except stucco guys use a hawk and trowel


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

Let's change course here. Ginger or Mary Ann?


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

mary ann ! Ginger was a Slut!


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> Let's change course here. Ginger or Mary Ann?


ok...Well ginger was flat like the hawk and Mary Ann had a nice pan...I would use them both...both of them have there strong points:thumbup:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I use them both but mainly hawks when I'm running a lot of mud. If it's patchwork and such, I'll just use a pan.

Today was a pan, 4/6/12" knives.

The pan is nice for that final go around where your skimming pretty thin. My 6" knife is my go to then.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

I've only ever used a 6" and 12" knife. No hawk, no pan.

I tell you what though, after today I was thinking of breaking out the hawk. What a mess I made. Executed my two least favorite things when spackling: lost a gob and it went straight into my pocket AND lost a gob that went straight into my ****ING EYE.

Oh last comment - The most Jersey thing I have ever seen I saw in an antique store. There was a hawk made out of a stick and a Turnpike on-ramp sign. The store owner said he got it from an old handy guy that sold him the contents of his barn. He refused to sell it to me.


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

Easy Gibson said:


> I've only ever used a 6" and 12" knife. No hawk, no pan.
> 
> I tell you what though, after today I was thinking of breaking out the hawk. What a mess I made. Executed my two least favorite things when spackling: lost a gob and it went straight into my pocket AND lost a gob that went straight into my ****ING EYE.
> 
> Oh last comment - The most Jersey thing I have ever seen I saw in an antique store. There was a hawk made out of a stick and a Turnpike on-ramp sign. The store owner said he got it from an old handy guy that sold him the contents of his barn. He refused to sell it to me.


In the 80's I worked with man that only used a 6'' and a 10'' trowel ...
you can do it but he was slow. trips back to the bucket. I told him to bring the bucket with him:laughing:.
I could let my pan go but I need my hawk


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## TimelessQuality (Sep 23, 2007)

superseal said:


> I use them both but mainly hawks when I'm running a lot of mud. If it's patchwork and such, I'll just use a pan.
> 
> Today was a pan, 4/6/12" knives.
> 
> The pan is nice for that final go around where your skimming pretty thin. My 6" knife is my go to then.


Look at that SuperSeal Setup:thumbsup:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Easy Gibson said:


> I've only ever used a 6" and 12" knife. No hawk, no pan.


Hawks are great for ceiling work when you have a finished floor you don't want to cover - just keep the hawk under where you're working.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

blacktop said:


> mary ann ! Ginger was a Slut!


Wouldn't that be a reason to go with Ginger? I mean you do want to get laid, don't you?


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

icerock drywall said:


> In the 80's I worked with man that only used a 6'' and a 10'' trowel ...
> you can do it but he was slow. trips back to the bucket. I told him to bring the bucket with him:laughing:.
> I could let my pan go but I need my hawk


You can do it, but we choose to be professionals.


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> You can do it, but we choose to be professionals.


 Professional? I dont know any pros that just use two knifes


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

Bad news gentlemen, me and my two knives cashed a check today, sooooo.....


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Man I always carry a six in my back pocket, however there's no way I could give up my eight inch knife. I need a 6, 8, 10, 12, and sometimes a fourteen.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> Wouldn't that be a reason to go with Ginger? I mean you do want to get laid, don't you?


Too easy.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

blacktop said:


> Too easy.


You use Durabond instead of EZsand?:whistling

There's a difference between doing something once because it's a challenge and when you're doing it every day....


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

Easy Gibson said:


> Bad news gentlemen, me and my two knives cashed a check today, sooooo.....


Typical remark from a whatever you need guy. A jack of all trades is a master of none.

It doesn't make you a pro or even mean you did it right. That's the attitude that gives contractors a bad name. Just give me the money. Again, if you think you are a professional drywall finisher with two knives, I feel sorry for the guy who wrote that check. But I do all my work in Bergan and Passaic county. Not far from you at all. If you think you and your two knives can compete, come and get schooled. I'll go one on one with you and you will lose.

I don't like people taking my trade lightly. You may get by. But the people cutting the checks deserve better. They deserve pros.


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

This is actually the first i've heard of people not going through the knife progression. I start with a 4", then move to the 6, 10, 12, all with the pan. And if need be, the hawk with a trowel.


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

A good taper can skim out butts with a five inch knife and string tape with a fourteen inch trowel....js.

And just because you have thousands of dollars worth of tools doesn't make you a craftsman.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> Typical remark from a whatever you need guy. A jack of all trades is a master of none.
> 
> It doesn't make you a pro or even mean you did it right. That's the attitude that gives contractors a bad name. Just give me the money. Again, if you think you are a professional drywall finisher with two knives, I feel sorry for the guy who wrote that check. But I do all my work in Bergan and Passaic county. Not far from you at all. If you think you and your two knives can compete, come and get schooled. I'll go one on one with you and you will lose.
> 
> I don't like people taking my trade lightly. You may get by. But the people cutting the checks deserve better. They deserve pros.


And loud mouth a professional it makes you not.

I learned a long time ago if you have to tell people how good you are or tell someone what they are not, you aren't what you think either. Get over yourself.

Seriously, are you saying that using a trowel versus two knives somehow effects how the mud stays on the wall or his finished?


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> Typical remark from a whatever you need guy. A jack of all trades is a master of none.
> 
> It doesn't make you a pro or even mean you did it right. That's the attitude that gives contractors a bad name. Just give me the money. Again, if you think you are a professional drywall finisher with two knives, I feel sorry for the guy who wrote that check. But I do all my work in Bergan and Passaic county. Not far from you at all. If you think you and your two knives can compete, come and get schooled. I'll go one on one with you and you will lose.
> 
> I don't like people taking my trade lightly. You may get by. But the people cutting the checks deserve better. They deserve pros.


I love G/Cs that do their own drywall! It gives them a chance to find out this chit ain't easy !! No offense ...But you seem like a real piss ant BUTCHERMAN . There's no wrong way to do It right ... The only thing that really matters Is what the painters think ! 

What's the difference between a painter and a puppy ?
The puppy stops whining after 6 months !!!!!


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## mako1 (Sep 1, 2013)

I've only ever used a 6" and 12" [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]knife[/COLOR][/COLOR]. No hawk, no pan."
Whe're you put the mud?Watch pocket?
I do my IS corners with a 3.5" . Does that make me a hack?


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## jb4211 (Jul 13, 2010)

mako1 said:


> I've only ever used a 6" and 12" knife. No hawk, no pan."
> Whe're you put the mud?Watch pocket?
> I do my IS corners with a 3.5" . Does that make me a hack?


How do you work with no pan or hawk?


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## mako1 (Sep 1, 2013)

That first line was a quote from TNT.Guess I messed that up?He said no pan no hawn.
I use three or four knives from 3.5 stiff for corners up to 14" sometimes.Always have a 6" in my back pocket.And a hawk unless it's a repair where I mix some hot mud in a pan.
The watch pocket thing was me asking him.No hawk ,no pan?What are you doing with it?


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

Just because you can do it one way doesn't mean you should. I'm not telling anyone how good I am, I'm just saying I'll put my 27 plus years up against anyone. Now let's address the point everyone seems to be missing.

I said "_you can do it_". Then I said _"but we choose to be professionals". _Nothing about right and wrong. It's about being professional. This is a professional sight here and that's what we should be. Like it or not you know I'm right.

There is a natural disrespect for professional drywallers and what we do. I believe it's the hacks who make the pros look bad. A good portion of the advice here isn't coming from drywallers. You can't claim to be a pro using only 2 knives. I can do any job from start to finish with a 5" knife and a hawk. I can do that because I am a pro. I just wouldn't call it a professional finish and I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a pro.

Now to address TNT. It depends on what you are doing. I do tie-ins with a trowel and finish with knives. I use knives on straight drywall work. But you need more than two knives to be a pro. Does anyone here do plaster repairs? Does anyone repair molded plaster? In short. Level 5 blends I would use a trowel and then skim with 12" knife. Level 4 I would use a 4,5,6,8.10 and 12 inch knives. Depending on the butt joints maybe larger knives. Again this is professional advice not jack of all trades advice on how to get by.

The reason I get up set here is people come here to get professional advice and that's not what is given here. No true pro would recommend finishing a room with just 2 knives. That is hack advice and it's what gives the pros a bad name on a profession that is already looked down on. Do what you want. But don't come off as a pro when you are not. I will call you out on it.

Sorry if you don't like my attitude. Tough crap. I want to give people good advice, not arrogant crap. Just think about it and keep in mind. People expect professionalism here. So do I.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Yeah, I am not paying 3 hours of WS time...but always love to meet up with fellow CT members. Despite what some think, I am a pretty fun guy.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

blacktop said:


> I've never used a roll of straight flex! I know better.


Knowing your limitations is key to success.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Knowing your limitations is key to success.


I'm successful cause I know what works.. And I know what fails! :thumbsup:


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Yeah, I am not paying 3 hours of WS time...but always love to meet up with fellow CT members. Despite what some think, I am a pretty fun guy.


my best friend is a plumber and his son lives there. he has there over there this weekend...I might go with him next time.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Give me a few days heads up. I may be able to round up Ron and Angus for a few beers.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I've used straight flex from time to time, mainly to deal with a hanging job that gives a wavy corner. Splooge on lots of mud, get the crease going in a straight line, ....

I haven't seen it fail in normal conditions, but I saw cracks develop on one after a structure fire.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

Sounds like we're headed for a tape-off.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Easy Gibson said:


> Sounds like we're headed for a tape-off.


I want in! I'm a mud slinger from way back.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Hawk or Pan



















Tough call...


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

Easy Gibson said:


> Sounds like we're headed for a tape-off.


I've seen some carpenters turn off some pretty nice drywall work but their route to get it there is atrocious!


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Drywall can drive you nuts...


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

I was gonna throw It in the bin...But I think I'll just send It to you Rob.:laughing:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

hdavis said:


> Drywall can drive you nuts...


Told you so:laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

blacktop said:


> I was gonna throw It in the bin...But I think I'll just send It to you Rob.:laughing:


Not sure I got that one.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Not sure I got that one.


....... Put your glasses on Rob!


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

blacktop said:


> ....... Put your glasses on Rob!


It's not that clear on the first one, can't see it with all that waste. 

So are you going to send it?


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

Don't think you can put that in a landfill. Gonna hafta sort that hazardous material out.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Again how us it not professional? He gives then a good job using the tools if his choosing. Just because you have boxed everything in your trade into your little box doesn't mean that he didn't give a professional finish.
> 
> Best way is subjective, not what you think is the best way.
> 
> Your definition of professional is a bit off.


I can hammer a nail in the wall with the handle of a 5" knife. The job would get done. My professional advice would be to use a hammer. See what I'm saying?


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

jb4211 said:


> That's a great attitude to have: makes living with difficult people easier for sure. I'm going to try and adopt it.


Dude, I've been to Philly. People from this city are the last people to comment on attitudes. You do know why they had a court room and jail in the old Veteran's Stadium? Why was that?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> I can hammer a nail in the wall with the handle of a 5" knife. The job would get done. My professional advice would be to use a hammer. See what I'm saying?


Nope. It has nothing to do with my point. I am not saying that he is using the most efficient method. I am just saying that what he gave was a professional job. It's not like he used the wrong tool for the job, just not in a manner you, or others, deem the right way.

He admits that it took him longer than it would take a full time professional drywaller. He admits that it probably isn't the best method, but it is a method that he is comfortable using. Instead of using a hawk he holds the mud on another knife, far from using a 5" knife to drive in a nail. More like a tack hammer to drive in a 16d nail. It's not the most efficient method, but it is a tool intended to install nails. The knives are a tool intended to install mud.

See what I am saying?


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

Easy Gibson said:


> I get where he's coming from.
> 
> If he and I were put in identical rooms and had to rock and tape them, he'd be done, paid, and at home taking a nap before I had my first coat on. I'm sure of that.
> He's a drywall professional, I'm some other kind of professional.
> ...


You got it. Drywallers aren't respected in the field. Contractors tend to look down on them till they need one. I take my work very serious and yes I can be a prick about it. I'll be the first to admit that. No offense here, I've gotten way too many calls from people who want me to fix crappy work from guys who do things like use two knives, over build, don't use enough coats or don't sand. I'm not putting down anyone's work because I haven't seen it, so don't take it wrong. But there are two things about these customers that piss me off.

1) They disrespect the profession because they got ripped off by a hack.
2) They want me to fix it for next to nothing because they already paid someone else to do it.

Can you see why I take it to heart. This is how I feed my family. I do put my heart into my work. I also take pride in it. So when I hear I can do it with two knives, I feel that's taking it lightly and for granted. Gentlemen, it's not that simple. Some jobs are, just not the ones on the scope of what I do. I will give away all my tricks to those who ask. I have no problem with that. But I do expect respect for the trade. That's it. It's about respect.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Nope. It has nothing to do with my point. I am not saying that he is using the most efficient method. I am just saying that what he gave was a professional job. It's not like he used the wrong tool for the job, just not in a manner you, or others, deem the right way.
> 
> He admits that it took him longer than it would take a full time professional drywaller. He admits that it probably isn't the best method, but it is a method that he is comfortable using. Instead of using a hawk he holds the mud on another knife, far from using a 5" knife to drive in a nail. More like a tack hammer to drive in a 16d nail. It's not the most efficient method, but it is a tool intended to install nails. The knives are a tool intended to install mud.
> 
> See what I am saying?


You just answered the question of why it's not professional. No one said it's bad or wrong. It's not professional. 

Answer this. How can you say he gave a professional job when he's not a professional? Do you even know what a professional job is? Have you seen the finish? Customer satisfaction doesn't define professionalism. Have you ever gutted a hack job? Would you say it was professional?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> Typical remark from a whatever you need guy. A jack of all trades is a master of none.
> 
> It doesn't make you a pro or even mean you did it right. That's the attitude that gives contractors a bad name. Just give me the money. Again, if you think you are a professional drywall finisher with two knives, I feel sorry for the guy who wrote that check. But I do all my work in Bergan and Passaic county. Not far from you at all. If you think you and your two knives can compete, come and get schooled. I'll go one on one with you and you will lose.
> 
> I don't like people taking my trade lightly. You may get by. But the people cutting the checks deserve better. They deserve pros.





BUTCHERMAN said:


> You got it. Drywallers aren't respected in the field. Contractors tend to look down on them till they need one. I take my work very serious and yes I can be a prick about it. I'll be the first to admit that. No offense here, I've gotten way too many calls from people who want me to fix crappy work from guys who do things like use two knives, over build, don't use enough coats or don't sand. I'm not putting down anyone's work because I haven't seen it, so don't take it wrong. But there are two things about these customers that piss me off.
> 
> 1) They disrespect the profession because they got ripped off by a hack.
> 2) They want me to fix it for next to nothing because they already paid someone else to do it.
> ...


Talk about Jeckyll and Hyde. You said you are the first to admit that you are a prick. Still waiting for that admission.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> If installed properly it will not pop loose. If you have seen DIY'ers do it, I can understand your digust, but properly installed it sticks like a champ.
> 
> I can tape a 90 with paper, I just like the clean edge the straight flex gives in half the time. You can mud both walls at the same time without digging into the other side. But I do like the boring dig...called that one! :laughing:
> 
> And it's not a fact that it will round the corner, never has rounded mine and I have never heard a single complaint from my carpenter, and he's not a shy guy.


Really? What happens when the framing in your corners dries out and the 2x4's shrink? I'll tell you, Straight flex pops and I get the call to fix it because the client wants it done right. There are other factors that make straight flex pop as well. Even when installed properly. It will hold up on most jobs, but why take the chance. Another example of professionalism.


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## overanalyze (Dec 28, 2010)

Holy crap...you guys are still debating this? Your both pros...with different methods. Solved!


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

Easy Gibson said:


> I LOVE the Straight Flex for finishing 45 walls in 3rd floors and attics of plaster houses.
> 
> Other than that, it's too expensive over paper tape.


Guaranteed to pop. 45 have too much stress to maintain it for long. I suggest Magic corner.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

:laughing:


blacktop said:


> I was gonna throw It in the bin...But I think I'll just send It to you Rob.:laughing:


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Talk about Jeckyll and Hyde. You said you are the first to admit that you are a prick. Still waiting for that admission.


You can't read? Look at the sentence before I said I'd be the first to admit it. Guess what? I was. I can also admit that you are not a professional drywaller. It appears to me you know two things about it:
1) Jack
2) Sh!t

And Jack's out of town. Am I being a prick?


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> You just answered the question of why it's not professional. No one said it's bad or wrong. It's not professional.
> 
> Answer this. How can you say he gave a professional job when he's not a professional? Do you even know what a professional job is? Have you seen the finish? Customer satisfaction doesn't define professionalism. Have you ever gutted a hack job? Would you say it was professional?


My God man, means isn't the only aspect of professional.

He is a professional contractor. That is his profession. Just because one can specialize doesn't mean that you have to specialize to be a professional.

I don't think that I said customer satisfaction was a definitive. What I said was he gave them a professional finish. The end result, I am guessing, looked just like yours would, just not in the same time. Seems that they only factor is how long it would take him versus you. The results were the same.

I don't think it's as hard as you want it do be to define a professional drywall finish. Do I think that it's easy? Hell, no. But I don't think your profession has to be drywall to give a professional drywall finish. That's how you want it defined, that only those in a specialized field can give a professional finish, but that's not how it works.

We just removed 6 sheets from a bulkhead that had peeling/bubbling/moldy paint spots. The duct work was leaking and causing condensation that was causing the damage. Pulled the rock, taped up the leaks and installed new rock. It took about a day to rock and tape. Maybe not as quick as a full time drywaller, but I guarantee that it was a professional finish. I am meticulous and thorough.

I will say that I was taught by a retired drywaller. I worked with him for nearly 7 years off and on. With my former company we did a ton of retro work and hired this guy on as a helper. He offered to do the repairs one day and has been my mentor in drywall ever since. I may not do everything the way he did, but he taught me a lot. Hell, I lose my patch work most of the time. Can't tell where the patch was.

The fact that I don't call drywall my profession doesn't mean that I do not deliver a professional job.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> You can't read? Look at the sentence before I said I'd be the first to admit it. Guess what? I was. I can also admit that you are not a professional drywaller. It appears to me you know two things about it:
> 1) Jack
> 2) Sh!t
> 
> And Jack's out of town. Am I being a prick?


Actually you didn't. You said you could be a prick, not that you had been a prick. It's a way to say that you said it without actually saying it.

Again, there is a difference between professional (noun) and professional (adjective). You confuse the two.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Ultraflex in corners bedded with brown bag 45 Durabond on top of fiberglass screen glued to the old plaster. ( old horse hair with wood lathe )

That, and a few strategically placed plaster washers on the ceiling and walls.


...and skim, skim skim...


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> Really? What happens when the framing in your corners dries out and the 2x4's shrink? I'll tell you, Straight flex pops and I get the call to fix it because the client wants it done right. There are other factors that make straight flex pop as well. Even when installed properly. It will hold up on most jobs, but why take the chance. Another example of professionalism.


Easy, I don't do new construction. I am a remodeler. I have a hand full of additions, but I wouldn't use it on new construction.

Again, you guys get calls on when it fails, not when it succeeds. I bet you have repaired miles of paper tape, but still use it.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

I've seen all kinds of stuff. Even a crew that just mudded the seams really thick, and power sanded it smooth. I don't argue with it, because it still looks great when the paint is on.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Rob,

Never used straight flex,

...when ultra flex came onto the market, I "guinea pigged" it, and have been all in since.

Great for skim jobs, and raking ceiling corners of the knee wall.

Didn't really want to jump into the middle of this...

...just my two cents.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

tenon0774 said:


> Rob,
> 
> Never used straight flex,
> 
> ...


I'll have to see who supplies it around here.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

To keep it "thread specific"...

...out of a pan with a 12" trowel to skim and set the screen.

Used a 4" knife to spread and set the ultra flex...

I think I used an 8" taping knife to "feather" the ultra flex.

...hmmmm

As I count it, two taping knives and a trowel.

But I'm not a drywall finisher.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

LMFAO!! When you slap A frame together with 15 year green pine .Ain't no tape gonna hold up! All you can do Is cross your fingers and hope for the best... When drywall took the place of plaster It wasn't because It was a better product ! It was CHEAPER!!!! Drywall Is all smoke & mirrors ! There's nothing level to It! Nothings flat! It just looks that way.


If It ain't got paper on It ...I won't use it! ......:no:.........Just me!


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

blacktop said:


> When drywall took the place of plaster It wasn't because It was a better product ! It was CHEAPER!!!! Drywall Is all smoke & mirrors ! There's nothing level to It! Nothings flat! It just looks that way.!


Same thing an old time plasterer told me about plaster - you just make it look flat.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

blacktop said:


> LMFAO!! When you slap A frame together with 15 year green pine .Ain't no tape gonna hold up! All you can do Is cross your fingers and hope for the best... When plaster took the place of drywall It wasn't because It was a better product ! It was CHEAPER!!!! Drywall Is all smoke & mirrors ! There's nothing level to It! Nothings flat! It just looks that way.
> 
> If It ain't got paper on It ...I won't use it! ......:no:.........Just me!


Agreed.

All due respect..

This is not the argument.

It started out as pan vs. hawk and it turned into straight flex vs ultra flex.

New construction is one thing.

I've had to skim a few old plaster jobs in my day and in my experience, ultraflex is easier to work with on a prepped old plaster surface.

As a carpenter, I agree with you 100%.

Fast growth lumber...

...but that's another thread.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

tenon0774 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> All due respect..
> 
> ...


They need to stop building homes out of wood!


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Yeah!

Stupid contractors and builders!

We just need to start building on "good intentions".

...oh wait,


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

tenon0774 said:


> Yeah!
> 
> Stupid contractors and builders!
> 
> ...


I know ... Not cost effective !


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> My God man, means isn't the only aspect of professional.
> 
> He is a professional contractor. That is his profession. Just because one can specialize doesn't mean that you have to specialize to be a professional.
> 
> ...


Thank you for proving my case.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Actually you didn't. You said you could be a prick, not that you had been a prick. It's a way to say that you said it without actually saying it.
> 
> Again, there is a difference between professional (noun) and professional (adjective). You confuse the two.


You prick!


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Easy, I don't do new construction. I am a remodeler. I have a hand full of additions, but I wouldn't use it on new construction.
> 
> Again, you guys get calls on when it fails, not when it succeeds. I bet you have repaired miles of paper tape, but still use it.


Statements like this shows you are not a pro. Sorry, just being truthful.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> Statements like this shows you are not a pro. Sorry, just being truthful.


Ya got me!


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

tenon0774 said:


> To keep it "thread specific"...
> 
> ...out of a pan with a 12" trowel to skim and set the screen.
> 
> ...


Thank you for being honest. This is my point. What a carpenter does and what a drywall finisher does are two different things. Would I be a pro if I framed a room without a level and just snapped lines and could I get away with it.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

blacktop said:


> They need to stop building homes out of wood!


We can put TNT on that one. I just wouldn't live in it. :laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> Thank you for being honest. This is my point. What a carpenter does and what a drywall finisher does are two different things. Would I be a pro if I framed a room without a level and just snapped lines and could I get away with it.


Again with confusing being a professional drywaller and giving a professional drywall finish. You could frame a room and it still be a professional job, just not done by a professional framer. It's really not a hard concept to follow.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> I'm not putting down anyone's work because I haven't seen it, so don't take it wrong.





BUTCHERMAN said:


> We can put TNT on that one. I just wouldn't live in it. :laughing:


Hmmm...seems like not only can you be a prick, but a liar to. You have never seen my work, yet see fit to put it down. You gotta show me how to talk out of both sides of my mouth, seems like you are a pro at it.


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

All these pages over hawk or pan . Good thing it's not together with tape or mesh .


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## Agility (Nov 29, 2013)

skillman said:


> All these pages over hawk or pan . Good thing it's not together with tape or mesh .


I've been meaning to ask, which is better?


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Agility said:


> I've been meaning to ask, which is better?


Paper


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> Paper


 What kind of paper . Lol


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

skillman said:


> What kind of paper . Lol


Tissue


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

fiberfuse over paper and mesh :thumbsup: and hawk over pan ...auto tools over hand tools on big jobs....ap mud on tape coat not light mud:clap: shoes not boots


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

icerock drywall said:


> fiberfuse over paper and mesh :thumbsup: and hawk over pan ...auto tools over hand tools on big jobs....ap mud on tape coat not light mud:clap: shoes not boots


Yeah, you were all good till you mentioned shoes. How can you be a professional and wear shoes? JK.. Maybe...


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Hmmm...seems like not only can you be a prick, but a liar to. You have never seen my work, yet see fit to put it down. You gotta show me how to talk out of both sides of my mouth, seems like you are a pro at it.


Seems like you don't know the difference between a joke and reality. So now I'm a liar. 

There is a difference between sarcasm and a lie. The comment you are referring to was a sarcastic joke. A lie would be" you seem to be an intelligent man". Sorry if I hurt your feelings. Now I know you can't take a joke. :no:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> Seems like you don't know the difference between a joke and reality. So now I'm a liar.
> 
> There is a difference between sarcasm and a lie. The comment you are referring to was a sarcastic joke. A lie would be" you seem to be an intelligent man". Sorry if I hurt your feelings. Now I know you can't take a joke. :no:


Up until then you hadn't joked or shown any signs if actual humanity, just bitterness. So forgive me if I didn't think you were joking.

And no hurt feelings, just pointing out inconsistancies. I would first have to know you and then respect you for you to come close to hurting my feelings.

I chuckle at every insult you hurl, just let's me know that what I am saying is effective.


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## icerock drywall (Aug 16, 2012)

:excl:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Tinstaafl said:


> Just to stir the pot (like it needs it), do you believe all professionals are craftsmen?


Drywall men aren't really classified as professionals or craftsmen ! So You may need to throw that question at someone else! :jester:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Every trade has its craftsmen, drywall included. But if you want to avoid that title, far be it from me to argue. :laughing:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

Tinstaafl said:


> Every trade has its craftsmen, drywall included. But if you want to avoid that title, far be it from me to argue. :laughing:


If you respect me...I'm one up! :laughing:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Yea, I think the butcherman is taking things a little too far in terms of professionalism in the trades as we know it.

Is it not possible to imagine a person who achieves high levels of knowledge, professionalism and success over a multitude of trades... particularly over a long spanning career?

It's not always the name tag you wear, nor the fancy tools you may own...it's more desire and determination which fuels individual motivation to achieve new status.

I myself live off this premise.

One should never underestimate the power of knowledge, determination and will. 

I mean, here we are arguing over how to do drywall corners, which tape, knife, trowel, hawk or pan to use and 4000+ years ago, the pyramids were already built...And, we still argue on how they were done.

I'm pretty sure most modern men, with the right determination, willpower and practice, can achieve a quality drywall finish worthy of calling professional. If they can't, I would assume said man would have the intelligence to sub-out such details to somebody who can achieve professional results.

Let's face it...it's gotta be easier than Giza, I mean 20 ton boulders lifted 481 ft high :laughing:


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

superseal said:


> Yea, I think the butcherman is taking things a little too far in terms of professionalism in the trades as we know it.
> 
> Is it not possible to imagine a person who achieves high levels of knowledge, professionalism and success over a multitude of trades... particularly over a long spanning career?
> 
> ...


Well said...I should have voted for you. :thumbup:


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## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

What if you didn't protect your hawk or pan and the tile guy got them all dirty?


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> Thank you for being honest. This is my point. What a carpenter does and what a drywall finisher does are two different things. Would I be a pro if I framed a room without a level and just snapped lines and could I get away with it.



99.9% I don't use a level when framing, snap my lines and go. Everything locks together. If it's al cut according to the lines snapped it will be plumb when you get to the top.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

I can lay brick! It looks like ass! But I can do It!


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

blacktop said:


> I can lay brick! It looks like ass! But I can do It!


I can make it look good, but i can only lay about 100 a day.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> What if you didn't protect your hawk or pan and the tile guy got them all dirty?


I'd call Walter White!!!!:laughing:


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

jlsconstruction said:


> I can make it look good, but i can only lay about 100 a day.


That's my point! You can't beat a man at his own trade !


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

blacktop said:


> That's my point! You can't beat a man at his own trade !


Why not?

That implies that all in a trade are good. Like Tins asked are all in your trade craftsman? Are none of them capable of a bad job? Bad practices? I have seen a lot of full time "pro" drywallers do some pretty chitty work.


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Why not?
> 
> That implies that all in a trade are good. Like Tins asked are all in your trade craftsman? Are none of them capable of a bad job? Bad practices? I have seen a lot of full time "pro" drywallers do some pretty chitty work.


I've seen more ****ty drywall men than you ever will In your lifetime!! Yes I see your point ! Trust me ... I do!


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Why not?


......


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

blacktop said:


> I've seen more ****ty drywall men than you ever will In your lifetime!! Yes I see your point ! Trust me ... I do!


I've also seen good finishers that had to work with a spasming back. Still dd a good jon, just not as fast and good as he normally would do.


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## mnld (Jun 4, 2013)

hdavis said:


> I've also seen good finishers that had to work with a spasming back. Still dd a good jon, just not as fast and good as he normally would do.


That was me last week!


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## blacktop (Oct 28, 2012)

mnld said:


> That was me last week!


That was me this summer! Last Spring was a ***** too!!!


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

blacktop said:


> What's L/W for? I've yet to figure that one out!:blink:


There is a difference between the compounds. Not many know them or their purpose. I could tell you but I don't think you 're serious. I think you know.


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## BUTCHERMAN (Jan 19, 2008)

I see no one wants to address the questions I asked. I think I'm dealing with a bunch of people who think they get professional results like the cake boss doing a wedding cake from a box of Duncan Hines. You just don't get it. There are easy aspects which you guys address. There are things where you would be in over your head. Gentlemen this separates the boys from the men. Sorry I can't explain it to you. 

I do take this very serious and I don't apologize for it. This is how I support my family. This is what pays my bills. I won't have it disrespected or cheapened by guys who have little knowledge. No problem though. I'll let it go. I've said my piece. Take it for what you want. I respect your opinions. I just disagree with them. Nothing personal. Just think it's time to move on. Enjoy gentlemen.


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## Agility (Nov 29, 2013)

BUTCHERMAN said:


> There is a difference between the compounds. Not many know them or their purpose. I could tell you but I don't think you 're serious. I think you know.


I don't know but would like to know the difference between the compounds. I can't answer any of your questions because I am not a pro in that specific field. Maybe I can get lucky on a few sheets but I don't claim to leave a professional finish, I merely agree that it's possible.

Also, I don't think anyone is saying they are better than you, that your trade is easy, or that you aren't good at it. So I hope you aren't taking any of this personally.


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