# Any advantage?



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Okay, now you guys have me confused. One solution we offer for cold bathrooms as part of our remodel is an inwall heater controlled by a digital/programable thermostat. 

We've always installed the Cadet Register Plus.


























There are two that we have used, one is a straight 240v and the other is a 120v which is 3 way variable depending on how you wire it internally.

The 240v - 2000watt - 8.33 amp

or the

120V - 700 watt - 4.17 amp
120V - 900 watt - 8.33 amp
120V - 1600 watt - 12.5 amp

We always are running a new, independent circuit for whatever heater we install. So does it matter which one we install? We've always just installed the 240v one. What factors would effect which one to use? I think I read on here the breaker box could be a consideration in that the 240v would use 2 slots.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> We always are running a new, independent circuit for whatever heater we install. So does it matter which one we install? We've always just installed the 240v one. What factors would effect which one to use? I think I read on here the breaker box could be a consideration in that the 240v would use 2 slots.


From the specs you just posted, there's no cost difference from the electrical bid standpoint or a cost to operate standpoint (save for the fact that some of those heaters are smaller than others). To you, the difference would only be the price of the heater, and whether or not you had that extra slot to spare for the double pole breaker for the 240 model. 

You're dealing with real small heaters here, so the electrical work (wire gauge, etc) is basicly the same for the 120 model or the 240 model. It costs the same to operate a the same heater, whether it's on 120 or 240. The rest of the cost numbers are yours, so you can take it from there.

What we're talking about here in this thread is the SAME HEATER (say, a 1500 watt model, for instance) supplied with 120 or 240.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

The 240v - 2000watt - 8.33 amp costs about 18 cents per hour to operate

or the

120V - 700 watt - 4.17 amp costs about 6 cents per hour to operate
120V - 900 watt - 8.33 amp costs about 8 cents per hour to operate
120V - 1600 watt - 12.5 amp costs about 14 cents per hour to operate


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

And as you can see, the heat output is directly proportional to the cost per hour to use.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> The 240v - 2000watt - 8.33 amp costs about 18 cents per hour to operate
> 
> or the
> 
> ...


This must be some amazing heater(what's with the numbers?)


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> And as you can see, the heat output is directly proportional to the cost per hour to use.



As would be the amount of time needed to heat a given area .


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## superjay5 (May 25, 2007)

Not to Hijack this thread, but Mike how do you like those Cadet in wall heaters???? I know you install them, but have you felt the heat they pump out, or any feedback from you customers?

I installed 2 of those heaters in a bonus room above my garage, same model. To get forced air in the rom was too costly so I went that route, my Eectrical Inspector recommeded them, curious on how well they work.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I have one installed in my master bathroom, it's on a digital programable thermostat so in the winter it turns itself on before you wake up and the bathroom is nice and warm. I've also got one in my finished basement I installed just incase we needed some extra heat down there.

They put out plenty of heat. Heats up a bathroom in about 10 minutes. They DO get a little loud after a year or so, but some machine oil might quiet them down. When I say loud I mean you can hear them when they are on. I'm not saying they are crazy, but they are virtually silent new, but after about a year you can hear them spinning. No squeeks or anything just a soft spinning noise, maybe like a low hum.

Customers love them and go bonkers for them.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Celtic said:


> Which one would that be?


The one where would you rather pull 1/0 cu to a parking lot light 1,000 ft away from it's source and operate it at 120 volts, or... run #6 cu and operate it at 480v? Either way, the wattage is still the same. But I'm sure you already knew that. :thumbsup:


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Since 14 gauge wire was brought up, I'll point out that you can run a maximum of 65' of wire for 1000 watts before you reach a 3% voltage drop at 120 volts.
I hope that it wasn't intended to be tied in with another 120V circuit


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Sparky Joe said:


> Since 14 gauge wire was brought up, I'll point out that you can run a maximum of 65' of wire for 1000 watts before you reach a 3% voltage drop at 120 volts.


...and if you want to run it for 100 feet, no one will ever know for a simple heating load and no codes will be broken either.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> ...and if you want to run it for 100 feet, no one will ever know for a simple heating load and no codes will be broken either.


A real quality job, eh?

Oh and the other part of my quote....
"I hope that it wasn't intended to be tied in with another 120V circuit"


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

> A real quality job, eh?


Voltage drop isn't a big deal on a resistive load. 




> Oh and the other part of my quote....
> "I hope that it wasn't intended to be tied in with another 120V circuit"


That would be a code violation many times. Mike did say that they always dedicate a circuit to the wall heater.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

The guys name is Stephen, not Mike.

And voltage drop should always be considered despite the load.
Cicuiting would sure be nice if assumptions always held true.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> We always are running a new, independent circuit for whatever heater we install.


I was talking about this quote.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Stephen said:


> Want to put in a wall mounted htr. is there any real difference or advantage between a 1000w. 120v. and a 1000w. 240v. efficiency?
> Thanks Stephen


I read Mike's post, and he installs these frequently, but I was referencing the original post which I thought this thread was about(the 14 gauge post was made before Mike posted)


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

IF voltage drop is a concern, then definitely use 240 volts because 3% of 240 is less than 3% of 120. Therefore, an appliance is supplied a voltage closest to it's voltage rating and will operate more efficently because of this.

Right? :laughing:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Sparky Joe said:


> ...voltage drop should always be considered despite the load.


I'm just happy we aren't talking about recept. in a dwelling unit :blink:


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

I suppose everything is negotiable to some electricians, while others have a code of practice that exceeds the code book.

If the 3% and 5% guidlines were worth the time to print then somebody must have thought electricians should have a clue as to good wiring practices.

Or perhaps some contractors might have to sacrifice half their lunch for a day due to the difference between a 3 dollar breaker and a 7 dollar breaker (oh and their is no difference in the price of the heating units)

Oh, and 3% of 240 is actually more than 3% of 120, I did this in my head, but I can get out my calculator if I need to.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Sparky Joe said:


> I suppose everything is negotiable to some electricians, while others have a code of practice that exceeds the code book.


You're young Joe, so I'll forgive you. When you're older and wiser, you'll realize the difference between when it matters and when it doesn't. Often, I'm very concerned with voltage drop. Within the four walls of a dwelling, I almost never am. It's just not a realistic concern within a dwellign unit.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

that, and it's all relative to who's paying the bills....


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

mdshunk said:


> The 240v - 2000watt - 8.33 amp costs about 18 cents per hour to operate
> 
> or the
> 
> ...


So technically the 240v is the most cost effective, but in reality we are talking such small amounts of cost here that it's really irrelevant. 

So bear with me here... it seems the only real advantage to the 240v is a higher wattage output and a shorter warming time to the room. It seems like we should just install the 120v versions since they are :

1) Cheaper
2) Will only use one slot in a breaker panel
3) Capable of 1600 watts which isn't that much less than 2000 watts of the 240v version

Am I missing any reason why someone would opt for the 240v version other than the greater heat output?


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> So technically the 240v is the most cost effective, but in reality we are talking such small amounts of cost here that it's really irrelevant.
> 
> So bear with me here... it seems the only real advantage to the 240v is a higher wattage output and a shorter warming time to the room. It seems like we should just install the 120v versions since they are :
> 
> ...


balances the load on the main feeds a little better....not really a big deal on resi 1 ph with 1 or 2 heaters...


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Am I missing any reason why someone would opt for the 240v version other than the greater heat output?


Not in my opinion. The greater heat output may be desirable to some people, however, to get the bathroom heated up fast before a bath, or may legitimately be needed for a larger bathroom if it's the primary heat source.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

What the hell was I thinking with my math last night?

3% of 240 is 7.2

3% of 120 is 3.6


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Okay, thanks guys you just saved me and made me some more money.:thumbsup:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Mike Finley said:


> Okay, thanks guys you just saved me and made me some more money.:thumbsup:


How many pennies per item are we talking about here :laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Probably $40 an installation. That's gas money enough to back out of my driveway at least 3 times.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

$40 was worth the time asking the questions :thumbup:


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Probably $40 an installation. That's gas money enough to back out of my driveway at least 3 times.


You have a 30 mile driveway?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

No, just a truck with crappy gas mileage.:laughing:


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> You're young Joe, so I'll forgive you. When you're older and wiser, you'll realize the difference between when it matters and when it doesn't. Often, I'm very concerned with voltage drop. Within the four walls of a dwelling, I almost never am. It's just not a realistic concern within a dwellign unit.


I don't need to be forgiven because I'm young, it once happened to all of you guys.
I am curious though of what I am being forgiven of, and what gives you power to forgive when I did not apologize?

It is quoted above that rules are for the guidance of wise men, but in my opinion, rules to wise men provoke understanding, and guidance is for the blind.

As already stated there is no code issue for feeding something with what's required. Perhaps because I am young and have a different mind set I would feed any circuit designated for a heating load with 240 Volts.

I would even compare this to coming home from work and seeing kids playing in the neighborhood, the speed limit says 25 so I wouldn't breaking any rules by going that fast, but would I, or rather would you?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Sparky Joe said:


> As already stated there is no code issue for feeding something with what's required. Perhaps because I am young and have a different mind set I would feed any circuit designated for a heating load with 240 Volts.
> 
> I would even compare this to coming home from work and seeing kids playing in the neighborhood, the speed limit says 25 so I wouldn't breaking any rules by going that fast, but would I, or rather would you?


I'm forgiving you of your strawman tactics, even though you haven't apologized or asked for forgiveness, per se. The above two paragraphs are excellent examples of strawman tactics. Google that, and have a great night.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Nice offense, but you are no 'straw-man', just a stubborn man in a straw hat. For somone that says "upsell" every chance he gets, this whole post of opposing what makes better sense seems very out of context.

And "per se", I literally did not ask for your forgiveness.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Sparky Joe said:


> And "per se", I literally did not ask for your forgiveness.


It's okay. I like you fine anyhow. :thumbup: 

I know you'll sleep better tonight, knowing that.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> It's okay. I like you fine anyhow. :thumbup:
> 
> I know you'll sleep better tonight, knowing that.


Thank you for tucking me in Mr straw hat man, good night


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