# Heat Pumps in colder climates?



## Sleepinggiant (Jan 10, 2017)

I had a friend call me today. He bought a house and is remodeling the entire thing. He has oil, no gas on street. Someone told him heat pumps are being used more in colder climates. We in Massachusetts. In my small world it's mostly forced hot air/AC with high efficiency gas furnaces, etc. Any thoughts? 

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## rescraft (Nov 28, 2007)

Maybe get a few HVAC guys in, to assess and give their best recommendations?


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## Sleepinggiant (Jan 10, 2017)

rescraft said:


> Maybe get a few HVAC guys in, to assess and give their best recommendations?


You're correct. I should have posted in HVAC. I'm not on here very much. Maybe a mod will move it over. 

It's an interesting topic. I was hoping to get some feedback and a discussion going. I know people are doing geothermal Heat Pumps with the ground or water but I think some of those are just too expensive. Thanks

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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

it is doable - they are getting to be able to run in colder climates like yours though you can get nailed on "emergency" heat 
I would have him check out Energy Vanguard - they do proper design & sizing which not many companies truly do to see if it is an option. You can also contact say Mitsubishi directly to see whom they might recommend locally


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## Sleepinggiant (Jan 10, 2017)

SLSTech said:


> it is doable - they are getting to be able to run in colder climates like yours though you can get nailed on "emergency" heat
> I would have him check out Energy Vanguard - they do proper design & sizing which not many companies truly do to see if it is an option. You can also contact say Mitsubishi directly to see whom they might recommend locally


Thanks for info. I definitely should have posted in HVAC. I was hoping to get more interest. I thought it was a topic worth exploring? Anyone's guess these days what will ignite the masses! Maybe I should have titled it Tree-Fiddy! 

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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

What's always sounded like a good idea for heat pumps in extreme climates is a ground source set up, using the consistency of the earth for a heat exchanger, running a bunch of pipes down. 

Depending on how much it would cost to set up and how high the utility bills are it might be worthwhile looking at, at the least you'd get green points.


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## Sleepinggiant (Jan 10, 2017)

Rio said:


> What's always sounded like a good idea for heat pumps in extreme climates is a ground source set up, using the consistency of the earth for a heat exchanger, running a bunch of pipes down.
> 
> Depending on how much it would cost to set up and how high the utility bills are it might be worthwhile looking at, at the least you'd get green points.


Rio, i agree! I've been researching this in the evenings, it's very interesting. The geothermal method of running a pipe loop 6' under the surface seems to make the heat pump viable for zones like 5 and 6 in the US. The ground is always around 55° + -. At 55 the heat pump can easily exchange the temp in winter or summer. The equipment is becoming very efficient. 

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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

From what I've read about it you can run 'em shallow or run 'em deep, I guess depending on your site and the ground itself. If it doesn't cost too much to do so the payback probably won't be too long and once it's done you're golden, nice stable goldilock temps keeping the heat pump running at maximum efficiency and minimum effort.


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## Sleepinggiant (Jan 10, 2017)

Rio said:


> From what I've read about it you can run 'em shallow or run 'em deep, I guess depending on your site and the ground itself. If it doesn't cost too much to do so the payback probably won't be too long and once it's done you're golden, nice stable goldilock temps keeping the heat pump running at maximum efficiency and minimum effort.


I'm in the northeast, looks like 5' or 6' where I am. If you're building a house or adding an addition might be worth considering since your already tearing the ground up. Having enough land to make it easier helps. When I find out the cost of the pipe loop material I'll post it here. Can't be too much $ 

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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

You split up the ground loop for resilience, if you loss one loop with five, you've still got 80% if your heat sink till repair season....

Sometimes the well style of heat sink can take advantage of water movement increasing heat absorption, but the less efficient shallow fields might be repaired cheaper then the well style are replaced....

run the # very carefully, some schemes promise cheap off hours power and require two service meters and very large water heater storage tank for a family.

And there "might" be some well water issues if you have a well or a neighbor does near your "heat" sink field(s). Not very likely if the pumped fluid is plain water...

don't forget to have some sort of heat source that will work with out power or have a N. gas hook up or L.P. tank and Genny for windless/sunless blackouts coming soon...


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## twintechhvac (Apr 28, 2020)

Hi there,
Heat pumps tend to work better in moderate climates. Some work better than others, but it might be good to investigate which ones work better than others.
Check out this article, hope it helps:
https://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/heating-and-cooling/heat-pumps-in-cold-climates.htm

Twintech Heating & Cooling
https://twintechheating.ca/


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Last post was almost a year ago. :whistling


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## Fishindude (Aug 15, 2017)

Not extreme cold area north central IN, but it is more of a heating area than cooling area. 

We installed a water source heat pump based on HVAC mans recommendations. We now have a very small natural gas bill, however our electric bill has increased quite a bit. The jury is still out if we are actually saving anything.

One dislike of the water source heat pump is that when it's moderately cold and just calling for a little heat, the heat coming out of the ducts is not near as warm as a gas fired, forced air system so it feels colder. We find ourselves turning the heat up a little higher to make the place comfortable.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

The technology certainly works. Your plain ol freezer is an air source heat pump using 0 degree air to pump heat into the room.

I think the lowest temp ones work down to -14 or so for air source. Efficiency lowers as temp goes down so the electric bill jumps quite a lot during a cold snap, but the rest of the time is 1/2 to 1/3 the use of resistive electric heat.


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## beenthere (Mar 5, 2009)

Fishindude said:


> Not extreme cold area north central IN, but it is more of a heating area than cooling area.
> 
> We installed a water source heat pump based on HVAC mans recommendations. We now have a very small natural gas bill, however our electric bill has increased quite a bit. The jury is still out if we are actually saving anything.
> 
> One dislike of the water source heat pump is that when it's moderately cold and just calling for a little heat, the heat coming out of the ducts is not near as warm as a gas fired, forced air system so it feels colder. We find ourselves turning the heat up a little higher to make the place comfortable.


What size heat pump. what type of earth link/well. If well, how many wells, and how deep are they.


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## Jman67 (May 17, 2020)

I’m from Fairbanks Alaska, were pretty familiar with ac and heat pumps in cold weather. Traditional air sourced heat pumps only produce heat down to about 5f or so, and typically loose efficiency and capacity. Mitsubishi has a line of mini split and VRF systems that can heat down to -18F outdoor air. Pretty cool. We’ve installed them and they do work. We have a 16 ton system in our shop/ office. 

These are not available as a coil for another furnace, but they have them in wall mounts, cassettes and ducted air handlers. Look up mitsubishi H2i or hyper heat. 

Daikin also has some that are pretty close in range.


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Jman67 said:


> I’m from Fairbanks Alaska, were pretty familiar with ac and heat pumps in cold weather. Traditional air sourced heat pumps only produce heat down to about 5f or so, and typically loose efficiency and capacity. Mitsubishi has a line of mini split and VRF systems that can heat down to -18F outdoor air. Pretty cool. We’ve installed them and they do work. We have a 16 ton system in our shop/ office.
> 
> These are not available as a coil for another furnace, but they have them in wall mounts, cassettes and ducted air handlers. Look up mitsubishi H2i or hyper heat.
> 
> Daikin also has some that are pretty close in range.


Welcome to the site. There's a few homes around the area that I built when I started my career. My screen name from the street I lived on- Golden View Drive, near the Vallata.


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## jkeller (May 26, 2020)

How much is a geothermal system typically running these days? I worked on a house having one installed once but it was a long time ago. I'm curious how prices have held up


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## Darrell C (May 29, 2020)

Sleepinggiant said:


> I had a friend call me today. He bought a house and is remodeling the entire thing. He has oil, no gas on street. Someone told him heat pumps are being used more in colder climates. We in Massachusetts. In my small world it's mostly forced hot air/AC with high efficiency gas furnaces, etc. Any thoughts?
> 
> Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk


You can always go dual fuel, which is gas heat and heat pump, heat pump being your first stage of heat. That way you can utilize the heat pump for milder conditions. Higher efficiency equipment is recommended, but with 14 SEER being the standard today you are starting off with what would have been an upgrade not too many years ago.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Heat pumps are used quite often around here especially in rural areas, we can get 10 to 20 degree winters. The initial cost is higher compared to all electric or propane but the long term benefits are worth it. Make sure your system has a back up electric heat. It could be needed in the cold winters and especially when your unit breaks down, they usually have about 20 year life.


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## DooWop (Jun 11, 2020)

When I was brand new, 1970, my boss installed heat pumps. There was a push by manufactures to promote them. They had a bunch of problems. Usually compressors failing. Things got slowly better. 
What was discovered was to keep them running. Even though the output lowered with the temperature it was still a savings and what one engineer told me he believed it was because the oil continued to circulate. Shutting them down was due to the miscibility of R22 refrigerant and the natrue of the refrigerant to migrate with the oil to the warmer indoor coil.

Output in cold weather was poor. One chart from Lennox showed a 5 ton HP put out 60000 btu's at 65 degF and put out, if memory serves, less than 10000 at 10degF. 
Today they perform much better. Early on the output temps in cold weather might be 110degf but I've seen mini's put out over 135degF and be very reliable. 
I still have a problem with so much technology used if something simpler was available. Things brake to the square of the number of parts and HP systems have a lot of parts. Then there's the problem with the tech side knowing how to fix them. Very specialized and needing more education.


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## twintechhvac (Apr 28, 2020)

As folks are saying it's probably good to get a tech check out the home. But heat pump tech seems to be getting better and better. Look into pumps with multiple sources because you'll get the most heat and efficiency out of those even in cold weather. 

Twintech Heating & Cooling
https://twintechheating.ca/


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## Propaschinsk (10 mo ago)

It seems to me utter nonsense that the statement that heat pumps are used only in cold climates. Why did they even take it? I have a huge number of friends who live in tropical latitude and use them at the same time. Of course, depending on the climate, their operation will vary slightly, but there is definitely no categorical ban on their use anywhere. The most important thing in all this is to arrange everything so that their installation is handled by professionals and choose the best inverter heat pump brand. Then you definitely won't have any problems.


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