# New to tile



## bpascoe13 (Feb 4, 2011)

I am a a 1 man show general contractor and when I came into a tile saw recently I took on a couple of simple tile floors with no real idea of any tile specific technical knowledge. I had seen a tile floor go down so I tried it. I bought material at Home Depot and the floors looked o.k.

I now have a customer who despite my lack of experience in the field would like me to do a large shower and floor in his master bath over electric radiant floors and a tub surround and the same floor in the other bath. I can do it as I understand what waterproof looks like and can cut materials in according to measurements I have taken. 
but what I need is good reference material as to the uses of the various types of thinsets and grouts. Material that basically says use un modified thinset for x type of floor with porcelain and natural whatever but use polymer modified for some other broad category applications, etc. Does this material exist.

The little questions that occur to me now are endless. My main focus has always been the highest quality installations I can dream up with all the appropriate layers high high quality materials and nothing extra or gimmicky. I always torture myself that everything exposed to water is as reliable as can be and should last with out problems for 100 years.

I'm just kind of tossing this out there to see if any one responds.


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## iHandy (Oct 10, 2007)

The Tile Council of North America (TCNA) puts out an installation manual of accepted practices. I consider this to be a 'must have' resource. You can get either a paper or CD copy from their web site. Weirdly, they don't have a downloadable copy for instant access, they'll have to mail it to you.


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## CarpenterRN (Dec 3, 2009)

Here is the TCNA link: http://tileusa.com/publication_main.htm Here is a good book (M. Byrne's new book) to get you started: https://m1.buysub.com/webapp/wcs/st...ctId=900423&catalogId=17803&categoryId=239339


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

I just ordered Michael's book last week.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

I don't know your skill-set or knowledge level in other areas of construction. That being said, I damned sure don't recommend a first timer building a shower and doing what sounds like a decently complicated tile job for a paying customer :no:

Why not call in a respected tile contractor from your area and get his bid. Maybe mark it up 15% or so (and earn it by picking up materials, coordinating plumber and glass guys, doing demo, etc.) and then hang out and soak up knowledge and get paid to do it. If you are truly serious about learning and are willing to stay out of the way when necessary and lend a hand if need be, the tile guy will have no problems with this arrangement.

Work smart not hard....and don't learn on your customers dime.


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## bpascoe13 (Feb 4, 2011)

We brought in two respected tile contractors to bid. I have worked for this client for a while now and despite my suggesting otherwise does not want to bring them into the project and asked if I would please just handle it. I have been building fine homes for 15 years and have a broad skill set. 

Thanks for the suggestions on this type of material.


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## Warmsmeallup (Apr 2, 2008)

If you will be heating the floor in the shower as well, be sure to only use low voltage radiant. It can be cut in the field with a piece of cold led spliced in through the wall or curb and the element is waterproof.


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## Bonzai (Dec 23, 2009)

Depending on which products you intend to use, Schluter for example have a pretty extensive folder you get when you attend one of their free courses that details how to build up the various layers depending on structure, etc. It also comes with an installation video DVD, price list, etc. It includes the Tile Installation Manual from the TTMAC (Terrazzo, Tile & Marble Association of Canada). The guys at my tile supplier of choice in Vancouver are also very helpful with tricky little questions, but there aren't many that the Schluter rep can't answer either.

I did the Schluter course last year and found it to be extremely beneficial. I use various products not just theirs, but I would recommend it if you get a chance ... from what I recall several of the guys at the Vancouver course I attended were from WA.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

bpascoe13 said:


> I am a a 1 man show general contractor and when I came into a tile saw recently I took on a couple of simple tile floors with no real idea of any tile specific technical knowledge. I had seen a tile floor go down so I tried it. I bought material at Home Depot and the floors looked o.k.




Remember the good old days?You know,when you had to actually know what you where doing before you could call yourself a professional and charge people money for you services?It used to take a little more than "seeing a tile floor go down" before actually doing it for a paying customer.:blink:

Unreal.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

bpascoe13 said:


> We brought in two respected tile contractors to bid. I have worked for this client for a while now and despite my suggesting otherwise does not want to bring them into the project and asked if I would please just handle it. I have been building fine homes for 15 years and have a broad skill set.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions on this type of material.


This place is going crazy today :blink:

You may have the skills to pull this off but you are admittedly lacking with the knowledge. If your customer insists you perform the work, it would behoove you to let them know about your lack of knowledge with this subject. While you'd like to give them the best outcome possible, you'd prefer to have someone else there to make sure you aren't making any critical mistakes. 

There's no shame in wanting to do a job correctly. 

There's a dozen different ways to build a customer shower correctly. The problem you may run into is getting a bit of info from this method and a bit more from another method. While on their own merits, they may be correct, combined they may not.

I do suggest to get a copy of the TCNA Handbook and pick a method you want to pursue. Once you have that method, find a video or something to watch someone else do it. The hard part will be finding someone actually doing it correctly. The internet is filled with folks showing the wrong way of doing it. 

I, too, really recommend you bringing in some help, regardless of what the customer requests. You can assure them that you'd be performing all the work but under the guidance of a mentor.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

Another thing that seems fishy to me - your customer trusts you so much that they insist you do the work but don't trust you when you say you would like to bring a tile guy in...doesn't make sense. Either they trust you to do the job or not. If they do, who you bring in to help you do it matters not. That would be akin to them saying one of your employees is not allowed to help you demo. If you're responsible for the job you dictate who does what. What if you need a plumber? Inspections? They aren't allowed on the job either?


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

bpasco---When I was learning how to build a shower base I hired a pro to build and teach---

There is no substitute for being taught by an old pro----Especially a shower base---Big trouble if that part fails--BIG.

If the pros pay comes out of your check,so be it---school is expensive--but not nearly as bad as a lawyers bill.

Just my jaded opinion.-----Mike----


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## bpascoe13 (Feb 4, 2011)

Thanks for all the input. I'm going to talk to my client again about bringing in an experienced tile contractor. I have a lot of confidence in my ability to understand the systems I am installing and do them correctly. I've never seriously let down a client and I've never misrepresented anything about the work I was doing for my clients. There is no other contractor that cares about the product they are passing on to their clients more than I do.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

bpascoe13 said:


> Thanks for all the input. I'm going to talk to my client again about bringing in an experienced tile contractor. I have a lot of confidence in my ability to understand the systems I am installing and do them correctly. I've never seriously let down a client and I've never misrepresented anything about the work I was doing for my clients. There is no other contractor that cares about the product they are passing on to their clients more than I do.


I know it may seem as we are unloading on you or not giving you any credit for the abilities you may have. It can be a tough crowd around here sometimes. hopefully this thread doesn't spoil your perception of us. Try to keep in mind until we get a feel for what you know or don't know and how you do business, we have to approach things like you are a craigslist hack or an incognito diyer :laughing: 

It's all in your customer's and the industry's best interest though :thumbsup:


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

bpascoe13 said:


> We brought in two respected tile contractors to bid....this client...asked I would please just handle it


Seeing as you/your client just wasted the time of two tradesmen, just tell your client you'll do it for [whatever the price of the bids were], then when you get the OK, bring in one of those two and just pay the to do it.

A lot of my clients really respect the fact that I don't do everything and sub out things (mainly due to liability)...and they refer me to others, citing that caution and respect for their home I have.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

I am also for getting someone in there to do it and learn what you can from them. Tile Setters work along time to know how to do it right. Floors are a lot different than showers. The worst that thing that can happen with a floor is you have to pull it up and redo. The worst in the shower is unimaginable. Talk your customer into allowing you to sub it out, everyone will be happier.


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

.........Some one eventually has to do it the first time, did the first tile guy ever say, I shouldn't do it, cos Im waiting for someone else to figure it out and tell me how to...........

you're telling me here that none of you have ever stepped outside your boundary to try something new.....




(flame shield on)


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Bastien1337 said:


> .........Some one eventually has to do it the first time, did the first tile guy ever say, I shouldn't do it, cos Im waiting for someone else to figure it out and tell me how to...........
> 
> you're telling me here that none of you have ever stepped outside your boundary to try something new.....
> 
> ...


Always take an argument to the extreme to see if holds up. I have never flown a plane before, maybe I should hop in a cockpit and try it out.

While I agree with you to an extent, there are boundaries. I draw the line when the risk is greater than the reward. I am not suggesting that he never tile a shower, just have someone do it for him, and learn as much as possible from the experience.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Bastien1337 said:


> you're telling me here that none of you have ever stepped outside your boundary to try something new.....


It's one thing to take a step, but another to take the nestea plunge into one of the more complex jobs. But my assumptions are bench, niche, pan (as long as you're floating the radiant heat), wall that ties into the tub. And tying in all that stuff is layout.

So I think he should try it--especially if his client wants him to do it instead of others that have some these more complex and skilled jobs. Looks like everyone has their eyes wide open.

"The little questions that occur to me now are endless."


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## Bastien1337 (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Always take an argument to the extreme to see if holds up. I have never flown a plane before, maybe I should hop in a cockpit and try it out.
> 
> While I agree with you to an extent, there are boundaries. I draw the line when the risk is greater than the reward. I am not suggesting that he never tile a shower, just have someone do it for him, and learn as much as possible from the experience.


Dont get me wrong im playing devils advocate here. That being said I dont agree that always taking an argument to the extreme is a good way of determining how well it will hold up. too many nuances for it to really pan out.

I think the main factor here is intent to learn and prior experience. I was around alot of tile guys before I did anything tile related and by watching them and reading books I gained the confidence to try small stuff by mself.

I then moved on to to bigger floors and bathroom and kitchen renos. I never had any training doing things like kerdi or red guard before the first time I did them. I read the instruction Manuel used my past knowledge and experience and went at it. Was it slow going ....hecks yes but I did right.

My main point is at some time you gotta just go in there and work it out. Just because its his first time doing it doesn't mean he'll mess it up. (there is lots of room for error no doubt)

Heck if everytime I turned around and said "I should leave this to someone with more experience" I wouldnt have the skill set or knowledge that I have now.

Yes you have to respect the boundaries. But just about every other question I read on this site these days is followed with an answer like, "Who are you? Where did you come from? Go back you non professional, you should already have all the knowledge, now flee from here and tell stories to the townsfolk of the danger here."


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