# Basement Water Control Questions (Engineer in need of advice)



## mmarcy30 (May 31, 2013)

I would appreciate some input on my current project. This is on my own home and I am tackling keeping my unfinished basement dry. Recently I installed two dry wells 25' away and 2' downgrade which my downspouts feed into. I thought this would remedy my wet basement woes, but much to my dismay it didn't stop all the water from penetrating. Although there is significantly less seepage after a recent storm than prior to installing drainage system.

*Here's what I'm working with:*

-Late 50's ranch, cinder block basement (30'x50')
-The concrete floor was poured within the footer, thus the footer creates a 4" high and 5" wide bench completely around the perimeter.
-The interior of the block was painted with an oil based paint or primer years ago. (Paint isn't bubbling or flaking, some areas were left unpainted)
-The exterior was treated with what I believe to be asphalt sealant during construction. 
-There is no weeping tile system.
-The house has proper grading around entire perimeter of home.

I am a mechanical engineer by trade, and do contracting on the side. I completely gutted and remodeled the living floor and plan to use the basement as a workshop. My basement has flooded twice since I have owned the home, Hurricane Lee and Irene both left me with about 18" of water. The existing sump could not keep up and the basin is not perforated. It is just a 33 gallon steel barrel cast into the floor in the dryest and highest corner of the basement... While renovating I raised everything off the ground to prevent flood damage, as I live near a large creek. 

*THE PLAN...*

Money is short after my big renovations upstairs, so I am using my engineering brain to emulate an interior box drain system to a new sump in the lowest corner where the water is still coming in after installing dry wells for the down spouts. Note: This corner was left unpainted due to a fuel oil tank. (I think this is part of the problem, Originally I was going to drylok the unpainted block, but the hyrdostatic pressure will just find a crack to penetrate.) I plan to utilize the aforementioned lip or bench created by the elevated footer to channel to water into the low, wet corner. I plan to grade the existing footer (1/8" per foot) bench with portland cement. The run is 32', so at the corner furthest away from where new sump basin is going in, I plan to add portland cement for 16' of the run and then cut away a 2.5" wide channel from the footer maintaining the same grade towards the basin. This shouldn't compromise any structural integrity of the footer. I will only be removing about 1.5" deep x 2.5" wide cut to the upper and outer corner of the exposed footer bench. No stress is transmitted through this portion anyways. Then to make the channel I plan to attach a couple 16' lengths of 6" wide trex facia boards with tapcons and PL to the footer bench and seal with butyl caulk. This will create a channel for the water to run into the new sump basin. I will drill 3/8" weep holes in all the block cavities and mortar joints just above the footer to allow the ground water to run into my new channel. I plan do the same thing on the a-joining wall to channel the water from the two problematic walls to my new sump.

Thoughts ideas suggestions. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!


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## mmarcy30 (May 31, 2013)

bump


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Admitting that you can't stop the water is a good 1st step.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Can you actually see the water coming in? Is it coming from above the floor? If not your channel obviously won't work.
What we often do is cut a trench the entire perimeter of the basement as close to the wall as possible. Install perf pipe pitched to a sump. Daylight the drain if possible. Cover with crushed stone. For a cleaner look you can install a grate over it.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Do you have a SUMP Pump in the basement? Having a cinder block foundation and if you have a SUMP PUMP pit, most likely you will have a 4" perforated pipe installed on the inside of your footing under the slab tied into the sump. This is how they use to do it until the late 80's early 90's... 
After that the pipe was installed on the exterior side of the foundation tied into the SUMP PUMP through the footing. If you have a pump, look inside you should see a pipe attached to it... if you have a Galvanized metal pit with holes to allow drainage from under the slab, this method will work also. 
Cut 1 1/2" groves in the slab 4' OC, making sure you clear the footing, approximately 10-12". Drill the block and install 3/4" PVC pipe with a 90, to channel the water from the block under the slab, then patch the slab. The water will drain into the SUMP PUMP pit and it will solve your water problem. If you need a sketch detail let me know.


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## mmarcy30 (May 31, 2013)

The water is weeping through the block (mostly through the corner where new pump is going in. It trickles down the walls then collects on my footer bench then eventually ends up on the floor.)

I debated cutting out the entire perimeter and embedding perforated pipe and going the traditional route as you mentioned. But since the water hits my footer bench first, I thought trying this first would be less invasive. I plan to try my channel method first. If its still getting wet, I'm making provisions to go that route. I plan to discharge the pump into one of the dry wells. I designed it with an cleanout to accept sump discharge. There is also a pop up emitter on the dry well if it gets over whelmed, and even a back-up day light port that runs out onto a splash block if the underground pipe gets clogged.

I've been planning this forever and have tried to plan ahead...


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

Put in a backup power source for the sump. Otherwise you will flood in any storm when you loose electricity. A gravity drain would be best if you can swing it.


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## mmarcy30 (May 31, 2013)

Greg24K 

The existing sump is not attached to any drainage system. Its just a 33 gallon steel barrel encased in the floor. I am going to drill some holes in it to relive some of the hydrostatic pressure. They put the original sump to handle flooding. I live in a valley near a creek. The flood waters have never came in the house, but ground water as definitely come in... many times.


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## mmarcy30 (May 31, 2013)

AmeliaP said:


> Put in a backup power source for the sump. Otherwise you will flood in any storm when you loose electricity. A gravity drain would be best if you can swing it.


I have a 100 amp whole home generator that automatically turns on when the power goes out. I'll wire the sump pump to it. The existing pump in other corner is also wired to it.


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## mmarcy30 (May 31, 2013)

greg24k said:


> Do you have a SUMP Pump in the basement? Having a cinder block foundation and if you have a SUMP PUMP pit, most likely you will have a 4" perforated pipe installed on the inside of your footing under the slab tied into the sump. This is how they use to do it until the late 80's early 90's...
> After that the pipe was installed on the exterior side of the foundation tied into the SUMP PUMP through the footing. If you have a pump, look inside you should see a pipe attached to it... if you have a Galvanized metal pit with holes to allow drainage from under the slab, this method will work also.
> Cut 1 1/2" groves in the slab 4' OC, making sure you clear the footing, approximately 10-12". Drill the block and install 3/4" PVC pipe with a 90, to channel the water from the block under the slab, then patch the slab. The water will drain into the SUMP PUMP pit and it will solve your water problem. If you need a sketch detail let me know.


Could you provide a sketch? Twould be appreciated! Thanks [email protected]


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## Creter (Oct 13, 2009)

If you have a pit already, looks like punching the holes into the barrel is what you need to do second.

First you need to obtain a sump pump and install it will a PVC drain to daylight. Around here that usually means out through the rim joist.

Punch your holes in the pit and let the pump do what it is meant to do.

That is going to be your most cost effective thing to do first.

The perimeter drain tile may end up being needed as a phase 2 but regardless the pump needs to be there so see how that works for you over a couple of rains. 

(It can only help)


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

> I have a 100 amp whole home generator that automatically turns on when the power goes out. I'll wire the sump pump to it. The existing pump in other corner is also wired to it.


Good deal.


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## Sar-Con (Jun 23, 2010)

If you get 18" of water after a major rain event such as a hurricane, you have major issues here that a little 2-3" trench will not fix.

I'll second CJKarl's suggestion with the interior drain and add in a larger sump pit and bigger pump. This should be more than adequate to accomodate the big rainfalls, and minimize the depth of any overwhelming events.

Where is your current sump pump discharging?
What is your backup for power failure?

P.S. 
How does an engineer approach a problem like this?
30' x 50' x 18" = 16,800gals of water.
How long did it take to fill?
What size pump do you have and what is it's discharge rate based on the total head and discharge distance.


Good luck - let us know!


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## mmarcy30 (May 31, 2013)

Sar-Con said:


> If you get 18" of water after a major rain event such as a hurricane, you have major issues here that a little 2-3" trench will not fix.
> 
> I'll second CJKarl's suggestion with the interior drain and add in a larger sump pit and bigger pump. This should be more than adequate to accomodate the big rainfalls, and minimize the depth of any overwhelming events.
> 
> ...


My current sump is discharging to an old grey water dry well about 40 ft from the house. The pump got clogged during the storm and wasn't doing it's job. I was at my parents house during the storm who are in a low spot trying to prevent disaster... I checked my house at 4 am very little water in basement, and old pump doing it's job, at 6am there was 18"... pump got clogged. I have since installed a new basin lid with grating. I had to empty the basement with a 2" trash pump. It took about 45 mins. The water was coming in everywhere, weeping through walls, and through an old well mostly. I sealed the old well off, after the first storm and two weeks later we got hit with hurricane Lee. The water just came up through a crack in the floor, since the old well was sealed. The big problem was the original sump basin had no holes in it to relieve the pressure under the slab. I've since put holes in the old sump basin.

I have a 100 amp whole home generator that turns on automatically when power goes out. The old sump is wired to it and the new one will be as well. 

I plan to install a Zoeller M93 pump in the new basin and replace the old one with the same M93. The new system will be able to pump 10,000 gallons per hour. 

Just like you said, I'm putting in a second sump and if the channel system doesn't cut it... I'll put in a perimeter drain. I'm basically doing it in stages, hoping my channel system will help. If not I'm making provisions for it within my new sump basin.

As far as the math. I would calculate the volume of water as you did, in worst case scenario. Then add in head and flow loss to the pump manufacturers specifications. They usually give you GPH at 5', 10', and 15'. The head increase do to elbows and check valves is minimal in standard installs. If you have an elaborate system you should add another few feet of head to your actual elevation measurement.

Thanks


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

How about Platon? It's a pretty good system. One of the best features is being a bond break between freezing soil and the block. in my opinion, trying to stop the water from the inside is a huge waste of time and effort. The water still gets in the block and does it's damage. Sure your stuff doesn't (or might not) get wet but the thing that holds up your house is disintegrating and you can't see it


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## Morning Wood (Jan 12, 2008)

Start saving up and excavate the exterior, seal the exterior of the foundation with a drainage mat and footing drain to daylight. That is the only sure fire way to fix your problem.


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## mmarcy30 (May 31, 2013)

Someday... I have access to quite a bit of excavation equipment as well. The big thing I'm worried about is collapsing my basement when I back-fill. I'm a experienced operator but still worries me with a block foundation.


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## Sliverpicker73 (Dec 28, 2009)

If you excavate back fill with washed rock give the water an easy path to the drain tile


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## mmarcy30 (May 31, 2013)

I appreciate everyone's advice! 

I started the project today. I purchased a diamond segment 7" blade, the two zoeller M98's and all the pvc yesterday, and got digging today. I cut a 3' square in the corner of my basement with my circular saw broke up the concrete with a sledge and removed it. I guess I wasn't surprised that I didn't find a gravel bed under the slab. The house was built by my uncle, who was a contractor, but I've uncovered a few other cut corners when I gutted the house two years ago. The lack of gravel is probably why my floor is 3" lower than the top of the footer. Anyways I dug the hole 3' deep which was an absolute *****! The first 2' were easy but I paid dearly for every inch of that last foot. I ended up in the hole with a hammer and masonry chisel breaking rocks out of the ground. The ground in NE PA is "hard-pan" and full of rocks, and to top it off I'm digging through an old creek bed. Finally got to 3' deep and shoveled the dirt, rocks, and concrete through a basement window into my back-hoe bucket (better than carrying up 5 gal buckets). I lined the hole with landscape fabric, wrapped the perforated basin with fabric as well, put 6' of washed gravel in the bottom, sunk the basin, and back-filled the rest with more washed gravel.

I am going to hold off on any further work until I can determine where the water is really coming in. I will probably end up cutting a perimeter channel and installing perf pipe. The diamond blade makes short work of cutting the concrete. My dad also told my he has a large air hammer. So cutting the trenches won't be as much work as I originally thought. 

One thing I noticed is how wet the ground was. I was 8' below grade, but it hasn't rained in 4 days. Is this normal? I'm in a valley and about 250 yards from a large creek.


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

> The ground in NE PA is "hard-pan" and full of rocks...


 :laughing:

You must be near me then! I'm in Pike. 



> One thing I noticed is how wet the ground was. I was 8' below grade, but it hasn't rained in 4 days. Is this normal?


 :laughing:

I'm surprised you got that far down without hitting a spring in these parts!!! 

Are you SURE they sealed the outside of the block all the way down? If they did that back in the 50's it would be the only one I am aware of where it was done. We do this stuff all the time.


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## mmarcy30 (May 31, 2013)

AmeliaP said:


> :laughing:
> 
> You must be near me then! I'm in Pike.
> 
> ...


I'm in Montrose!

Yeah the blocks (all but top two courses which are above grade) are black on the outside. I've excavated out a section to install a new septic system. Should have kept going all the way around the house, re-sealed, installed drainage board, and a weeping tile system. But I'm assuming it's some sort of asphalt or tar sealant...

How's the Nat Gas business down there. Susquehanna County is going GAS CRAZY. Too many ******** with money!! I love seeing a falling down old farm house with a brand new 5 bay pole barn, new RV, new truck and quads... Fix your damn house first woodchucks!

Whats your take on the wet ground?


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

> Yeah the blocks (all but top two courses) are black on the outside. I'm assuming some sort of asphalt or tar sealant...


Your further west. They didn't do that stuff here in the Poconos back then. They would do *maybe* the top two course! 

Water & Rocks is in PA's nature. I'm no where near a creek and the water table here is probably 6'.

Do a radon test a bit after the sump goes in. I had to cover mine to keep the levels acceptable.


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## mmarcy30 (May 31, 2013)

Thanks, i edited my last post... Nice to meet a fellow NEPA resident though. Thanks for your advice!


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## AmeliaP (Apr 22, 2007)

mmarcy30 said:


> Thanks, i edited my last post... Nice to meet a fellow NEPA resident though. Thanks for your advice!


No fracking out this way. The delaware river commission won't let them go past Wayne county.

What is your impression of the gas companies? I have seen plenty in the news but it would be good to hear an opinion from someone without a camera on them.


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## mmarcy30 (May 31, 2013)

Honestly I am a bed wetting Liberal with most political issues. I was concerned when the gas drilling craze started up here. Then Gasland came out and the Dimock stories were going crazy. As it turns out EPA testing showed that the water in Dimock had the same levels of naturally occurring methane in the water as before drilling. We have always had methane in the water here and people in the early days utilized it with collection systems to light their homes. Even after the EPA statement two families still pursued lawsuits against Cabbot, strangely enough they only owned small parcels of land and didn't stand to make much of royalties.... The gas companies up here spend an insane amount of money on the community (donations, public events, road re construction, et cetera). They are minimally invasive into the landscape. After the two month drilling process the land is reclaimed and the well looks like a fire hydrant in a field. I have three active wells within a half mile of my house and my water and air is fine. It's been tested before and after drilling more times than I can remember. I don't personally know anyone whose water has been affected either. I could complain about the traffic, there are trucks everywhere, caravans of water trucks. But the local economy is booming, restaurants, hotels, stores, you name it have all seen big influxes. There is more jobs than we can fill locally, high paying with great benefits (15% 401k match). I know there has been some minor enviromental incidents, spilled diesel and normal industrial stuff, but this is also the land of bluestone quarries who are much less regulated and way bigger offenders in that department. Drilling is insanely regulated by the state. All in all I think it is a blessing to a destitute area. The amount of money coming in through royalties and leases to poor farmers who could barely pay there taxes is staggering. So far I am very pro nat gas, we'll see in ten years though...

Check out Dimock Proud, Truthland on Youtube or watch FrackNation a great documentary on gas drilling, they talk a lot about the delaware river valley exclusion as well.


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## jomama (Oct 25, 2008)

If the top of footings are really higher than the top of floor, you're going to need alot more than a sump crock to fix the water problems. Inevitably, 3 mils of black tar or not, water is going to leak into the block and have no choice but to leak at some point above the footing, into the basement..........


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## EthanB (Sep 28, 2011)

I went back to find a good article I'd read on Building Science about interior water management for rubble foundations that looks like it would suit your issue. Skip on down to page 5 for the best diagram.

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-041-rubble-foundations/files/BSI-041_Rubble_Foundations_note.pdf


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

mmarcy30 said:


> One thing I noticed is how wet the ground was. I was 8' below grade, but it hasn't rained in 4 days. Is this normal? I'm in a valley and about 250 yards from a large creek.


Water table depths vary everywhere, there is no normal. I built on property that only had about a foot depth water table. Water can be coming from below as well as from the sides. Only way to stop moisture coming out of the ground is with a vapor barrier.


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