# Copus and business size



## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

copusbuilder said:


> I leave you alone until you make a comment saying that small businesses are merely self employed people.


When you take a week vacation, would I be correct in assuming all work stops and all of your employees also take a week vacation at the same time? I want my business to be able to run with out me if I choose to take a 2 week vacation.



copusbuilder said:


> I should also add that you my friend, are a small business


 Well according to the IRS any company that employs less than 250 people is a small business. I think that's hogwash. I agree I am CURRENTLY a small but growing business. I won't be small for much much longer. 



copusbuilder said:


> Today I am closing on a piece of land and will be building the first vacation rental home on the first of six lots I have. I couldn't do that if I was working 10+ hours a dayand investing everything into my business.
> 
> I will take those homes over the crap shoot of "maybe" being able to build my dream business.


 Congratulations on this investment. 
It's good that you are diversifying. I too have alternative retirement plans, and the sale of my business is only ONE of those plans. Investment property is another, though I am slow to start on that one. I personally feel that investment property is the best and safest investment around.



copusbuilder said:


> Really one of the dumbest comments I have ever heard:sad: Don't know what book you have been reading but you should flush it down the commode!!:thumbup:


 No books. Most of the books I have read I find major flaws with. I do things my way, which is a large part of the reason I started my business.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Copus. Last night I sat down after posting my reply questioning what my real goals are. Company size is just a symptom of my true goals which are monetary earnings and quality of life.

When I set these goals for myself, the next logical step was to devise a road map to attain my goals. I explored every idea I could think, including the small owner operator type, of and it kept falling back to one thing (for many many reasons)... The company must be able to run without me, and must do a certain volume of work at a certain margin.

Budgets have been put together. Marketing and business plans written, and everything run past two accountants which agree they are reasonable and realistic. 

I've read various reports that the #1 hurdle a small business faces in terms of growth is the owner being able to deligate responsibility and basically just being able to let go and trust his employees to their responsibilies. From my point of view, I have no problem doing this, assuming the revenue is there to support it. My first hire was a repair man, to free up more of my time to sell. My second hire a sales man, to compliment my own sales and increase overall revenues, and my third hire a book keeper because I face the reality that I am not at all good at book keeping. 

Right now I am looking for another good estimator/salesman who can bring in some numbers. However I admit that hiring isn't one of my strong points, and is something I need to work on. After I find this estimator who can "bring in the numbers" I plan to hire a part time office person to take a big burden off my back in terms of data entry and returning phoen calls and e-mails. 

After I get to a point, which has already been pre-determined, I plan to stop the growth and farm profit. The profit will both be absorbed by me, but also my future long term growth plan which are partly the satelite offices I mentioned above.


I've got a plan and I am working it. The plan to attain my ultimate goals of financial independance and quality of life. However I admit that I am up and coming and overly agressive and very ambitious. I admit that I am speking of my perspective of what I am trying to do and you appear to be speaking of your perspective of been there done that. 

Copus, all that I ask is that you understand that WE are not the same people... and just because a large business structure didn't work out for you does not mean it will not work out for me. Just because you couldn't or didn't have the desire to manage a large business structure does not mean that I won't have the ability when the time comes. Who knows? Maybe youa re right, maybe I won't have the tenacity or desire when the time comes, but only time will tell because that's where I am going!


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Hey Grumpy, Thanks for moving this:thumbsup: 

I don't have an issue with you or anyone reaching their full potential and growing if thats what they choose to do.

Where I have an issue is with you saying a small shop is a self employed person and not a business person. We are all business men and women if you are self employed... just with different goals.
I did my share of the limelight and it wasn't worth it to me. 

I downsized and increased my salary and have abundant time to do things. If I had not grown I probably wouldnt have the customer base that I have, so that was a positive.

To you growth might be a challenge you can't live without??

I will offer opposing views *at times *to threads that make growth sound like it is "heavenly". 
Many of the newer people need to see both sides so they can formulate a business plan that works in harmony with their life.
Because a person chooses a smaller growth pattern does not make them less of a business person. Perhaps someone who likes more time with their family or hobbies?

I have said before that I understand and respect anyone wanting to build a business. I hope it works for you and anyone else who trys. 

P.S. 
When I take a vacation I have my workers set up for that period. Usually a bath or kitchen remodel that keeps them busy for long periods.

Keep smiling and thanks for sharing your point of view. :thumbup:


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Grumpy said:


> Copus. Last night I sat down after posting my reply questioning what my real goals are. Company size is just a symptom of my true goals which are monetary earnings and quality of life.
> 
> When I set these goals for myself, the next logical step was to devise a road map to attain my goals. I explored every idea I could think, including the small owner operator type, of and it kept falling back to one thing (for many many reasons)... The company must be able to run without me, and must do a certain volume of work at a certain margin.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your headed down the right road Grump. My hats off to you on that post. I'm glad I took the time to read it.:thumbsup:

Bob


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

Ditto Bob.. Grumpy sounds like he's accomplished what many of us still need to do and that is determine and finalize exactly what our goals are. Where everyone decides is their "end of the road" or "the holy grail" is as individualized as the opinions of how to get there. :laughing: 

Good job Grumpy, your farther down the road that I am at this point on the stability scale.


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

OK, to keep it fair on this thread, I'll throw in my two cents.....

I gotta go on the side of Copus here. I started out thinking I was going to have 2 or 3 crews going on multiple jobs. Made no money the first couple of years. Plenty of work, just nothing was getting done. I spent more time showing people what & how to do things, I could have gotten everything done faster myself. I cut way back.... I now have only one full time helper, and a part time grunt. I get more done now & have more money in my pocket at the end of the year. Probably because I am not a good people manager.... More of a "hands-on" type of guy. 

I don't feel compelled nor have the desire to be big business. If I can make a good living and provide for my family, that's all I need. Really.... What good is all that money you hope to make Grumpy, when in reality it's not worth the paper it's printed on? My wife & I have been through many tough times (I do not care to expound). We have come to the conclusion that as long as we are in good health, love our careers, and have a good family life, that's all we really need.

I do hope it all works out for you and anyone else with the same desire & ambitions as you Grumpy. Myself, I do not have those qualities in me.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

maj said:


> Plenty of work, just nothing was getting done. I spent more time showing people what & how to do things, I could have gotten everything done faster myself.


I couldn't agree more with everything you say, maj, - - especially that statement . . . 

I'm thinking the main difference here, though, - - is that your line of work (like mine) is so multi-faceted, - - whereas Grumpy's line is much more 'niche'-focused . . .

Much easier to be able to depend on guys doing 'one trade' . . .


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Tom R said:


> I couldn't agree more with everything you say, maj, - - especially that statement . . .
> 
> I'm thinking the main difference here, though, - - is that your line of work (like mine) is so multi-faceted, - - whereas Grumpy's line is much more 'niche'-focused . . .
> 
> Much easier to be able to depend on guys doing 'one trade' . . .


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: 

No doubt...... I agree.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Two differing opinions here, none of them are wrong.
As far as a smaller owner operator having more time for family or friends,it is not necessarilly true. 
In fact, after twenty years of being one, I think the oposite was true (for me). 
As soon as I changed to "out of the bucket", the free time generated was eye opening. 
And I now have a bigger salary monthly than I ever had. I don't ever have to touch a paint brush. 
The more time I have to concentrate on selling and hiring, the bigger my salary gets. 
At the same time I have time off to have a life.
As far as this being possible with specialty contractors only, I know couple of multimillion dollar contractors, 
doing exactly that and working 5-6 hours a day.
Again, I see nothing wrong with the other point of view, 
I just like Grumpy's approach better as it is changing my life for the better.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

George Z said:


> As far as this being possible with specialty contractors only


Not saying 'impossible', George, - - just tougher . . . 

Like you say, - - all different points of view, - - none wrong . . .


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Tom, also think: 
we are all growing older too.
Myself, I wouldn't have the energy or desire to be an old painter.
What about injury, back trouble etc, a lot of us would suffer that.
In that case as soon as we are out of work the business is no more.
One of the painters here is going through that(there is a thread to that effect).
On the other hand you could be in great physical shape and health and
be hammering away until you retire.

Me...I had too many donuts and smokes...


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## ruger9 (Jun 27, 2006)

maj said:


> I cut way back.... I now have only one full time helper, and a part time grunt. I get more done now & have more money in my pocket at the end of the year. Probably because I am not a good people manager.... More of a "hands-on" type of guy.


I just started my own business, so I have alot to learn, BUT...

I just quit a job of 16 years working for a "small company"... about 10 employees. Only about 1M in sales annually...like I said, small company. But CHOKED with debt. Way WAY too much overhead- if I owned that company, I could do the same job with 5 fewer people, a smaller (& cheaper) site, and all the employees could double their salaries. It seems like when a company starts growing, you have to be careful not to grow too fast. Then you end up in a cycle of:

-I need to hire more people to get more work done
-darn, I'm cutting profit hiring more people & all the overhead that goes with that
-now profits are back up. Cool! Now I need to hire more people to make MORE money... & on & on...

It seems to me, and as I said I'm a rookie at this starting-your-own-business stuff, but one of the keys is to KEEP overhead low. Which is easy if you don't mind working.  Seriously- I've got 2 friends who have been doing this awhile, & their businesses have grown quite a bit. But employ only around 10 people, but they do a steady business & apparently make good money. They want to make MORE, which maybe they could if they didn't have to buy another truck, for another crew, with a hike in worker's comp, and cellphones for all the crew leaders, etc etc etc.

Right now, I'm solo. I know I'll have to hire at least ONE guy, because I can't do everything solo I need/want to do. And I want to hire someone I can trust to do it if I'm not there. But to do the work I want to do (interior remodeling- especially high-end/creative stuff, and eventually historic restoration), I think a high quality of work, and a close relationship with the homeowner is a neccesity, and also what is lacking in this area's contractors (or so I've been told). On my last job my client told me "you showed up on time, finished when you said you would, and cleaned up when you were done. That puts you ahead of 90% of the contractors out there." I couldn't imagine doing what I want to do, with crews out there doing all the work- it's a bit scary, actually. Sorry to carry on....back to the topic at hand... MINIMIZE overhead to maximize profit, flexibility, and free time. That's my plan. At least for now...

...now WHERE did I put that "free time"?????????:laughing:


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

*Multi-faceted vs. niche contracting*

This thread has been very interesting to see as it unfolds. Today I had lunch with a wood flooring conttractor friend of mine who is trying to make the jump from a four man operation to eight man operation. He is very stressed. I asked him if he is making more money or if he was just "churning" money. The answer was "churning". Even in what is considered a niche he is having a hard time, being more profitable, mainly due to competion. He said he is almost ready to go back to 1 employee. Two cabinet makers I recently talked to have made the cut back from 10 man operations to just 1 man ops and say they are making more now than before.

In my mind, I am thinking how hard is it in a niche specialty for the employee to just do the work? Painters.......Pick up paint, go to house, prep,paint,be clean and courteous. Wood floor finishing......the same to a certain degree.

Bath and kitchen remodeling, and additions are much more faceted and requires forward and reverse logic and reasoning which keeps the job interesting to say the least. Like any job, one begins with a plan and follows through until completion. Niche jobs just seem easier to train and manage employees through this process.

With all the talk about growing your business to a point where you can sell it........I just do not see where it can happen in a residential remodeling format. You may be able to sell your assets (trucks,tools,trailors), but what else is there to sell once the key employee of the company (You) is gone? Are you going to sell your phone list?
How much is that worth?

Please, do not mis-understand me. I understand the concept of growing a business to sell....but not a residential remodeling company. I hope I am wrong. Anybody with success stories?

I would like to hear some of the veterans chime in on their thoughts and experiences with their muti-crew, million dollar residential remodeling companies that they operated during a younger phase in life.
Namely, off the top of my head, I would ask Sonny Lykos and Shell Additions. If anybody else that had a big residential remodeling company and sold it.......was it profitable selling?

Was the profit just in the physical assets or in the whole company brand and physical assets?


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

If the profit margins stay the same, job after job, after job, after job,
growth is very predictable. It has been extremely predictable here recently.
You budget, you execute, you grow. What is interesting is, it only hapened after I stopped beeing on the field.

My choices were:

A) on the field - hardly any money, lots of back breaking work, frustration
B) off the field - better money and growth, lots of fun

I chose B!

Of course my personal experience relates to Painting Contracting


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

George Z said:


> If the profit margins stay the same, job after job, after job, after job,
> growth is very predictable. It has been extremely predictable here recently.
> You budget, you execute, you grow. What is interesting is, it only hapened after I stopped beeing on the field.
> 
> ...



Just out of curiosity, George can you sell your business right now if you put it on the market? Without going into specific dollar amounts is there a tangible dollar figure?

Glad to hear you are doing better with B.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

"_I would like to hear some of the veterans chime in on their thoughts and experiences with their muti-crew, million dollar residential remodeling companies that they operated during a younger phase in life_"

No personal stories, but I know a few of these local companies 
are doing the impossible

http://www.renomark.ca/members.asp?offset=0


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

Gordo said:


> Just out of curiosity, George can you sell your business right now if you put it on the market? Without going into specific dollar amounts is there a tangible dollar figure?
> 
> Glad to hear you are doing better with B.


Gordo, No. I don't think so.
Our turn around is very recent (less than a year).
The plan is that everything will be turn key and systemised within a year. 
I would love to remember to answer that question then.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

Great post! Very interesting to hear both sides, especially for us, since we've come to a fork in the road where this is concerned. 

I think one of the determining factors is that a small business will eventually have to turn down work, since they are not at capacity to do it all and don't want to be. Whereas a larger scale business owner could take it all on and then some and would in turn make more money down the road this way??? That is, as long as they can handle it and are etremely organized and efficient. If not, they would make the same or less then the small guy.


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## ruger9 (Jun 27, 2006)

Melissa said:


> I think one of the determining factors is that a small business will eventually have to turn down work, since they are not at capacity to do it all and don't want to be.


See, from what I hear around these parts (New Jersey), that is exactly where you WANT to be, and where all the "really good" contractors ARE. I have been told by many, many people "if you listen to the client, and do good work, and get it done on time, they will get on your WAITING list for you to do their home. And by the time you get to this point, you won't need to advertise anymore. Most guys operating this way don't advertise, and don't even have their name on their truck."

I realize it could take several years to get to this point, but it still sounds like heaven to me.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

ruger9 said:


> See, from what I hear around these parts (New Jersey), that is exactly where you WANT to be, and where all the "really good" contractors ARE. I have been told by many, many people "if you listen to the client, and do good work, and get it done on time, they will get on your WAITING list for you to do their home. And by the time you get to this point, you won't need to advertise anymore. Most guys operating this way don't advertise, and don't even have their name on their truck."
> 
> I realize it could take several years to get to this point, but it still sounds like heaven to me.


Unless you want to be on the field working hard daily, you need to advertise. Referals keep you on the field (most of the time).
You need the constant flow of leads so you can only take the profitable ones only.


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

ruger9 said:


> See, from what I hear around these parts (New Jersey), that is exactly where you WANT to be, and where all the "really good" contractors ARE. I have been told by many, many people "if you listen to the client, and do good work, and get it done on time, they will get on your WAITING list for you to do their home. And by the time you get to this point, you won't need to advertise anymore. Most guys operating this way don't advertise, and don't even have their name on their truck."
> 
> I realize it could take several years to get to this point, but it still sounds like heaven to me.


Ruger.... You'll do just fine as long as you remember those words you just typed. You nailed it on the head there buddy... Good job :thumbup: 

I spent the first couple of years on my own trying to be the new big dog in town. I didn't make a whole lot of profit at first. As stated in my previous post, I had too many crews & not enough quality control. I soon realized bigger is not better. I downsized and turned my attention to quality control. I am now able to pick & choose what work I want. Who I want to work for. And when I want to do their work.I never advertise for work. Only community event sponsorship.

I do not agree with the contractors logic of "taking it all" or the fact that some seem to think theirs is the ONLY company that can do the best job.. That's just bs, and they are only fooling themselves. I have a great reputation in my area and stay busy year 'round, but then again, I would recommend 90% of the other guys too(my direct competeion). What I'm saying is I am not the only one who can do a great job, so can my competition. Almost all the construction contractors around here get along great, and even work off of eachother occasionally. I think this is very important to be successful too.... Working WITH,not AGAINST, your competitors. Establish a good name in the community. Treat customers the way YOU would want to be treated. BE FAIR... do not overinflate your prices, just because you "CAN".

I am almost always 8 months to a year booked, This is not crappy work(I turn that down), my work is new residential construction. New houses(start to finish), additions, remods, etc.


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

ruger9 said:


> See, from what I hear around these parts (New Jersey), that is exactly where you WANT to be, and where all the "really good" contractors ARE. I have been told by many, many people "if you listen to the client, and do good work, and get it done on time, they will get on your WAITING list for you to do their home. And by the time you get to this point, you won't need to advertise anymore. Most guys operating this way don't advertise, and don't even have their name on their truck."
> 
> I realize it could take several years to get to this point, but it still sounds like heaven to me.



Ruger, your post is so true. Just the fact that you see how the system works will enable you to get to that point sooner. It took 6 years for my company to get there. All our business is word of mouth from day one. Keep in mind, my company consists of 2 employees and one of them is me. We have a couple of good subs, but the majority of the work is performed by my company. 

The question is how long can we keep this pace as we age?


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

George Z said:


> Unless you want to be on the field working hard daily, you need to advertise. Referals keep you on the field (most of the time).
> You need the constant flow of leads so you can only take the profitable ones only.



Over the past three months, we have had literally 20 leads for kitchen and bath remodels. How many have we taken? Zero. Why? Because they were not the right jobs.

George, you are correct about the constant flow of leads so you can pick the profitable ones. I do not think you need to advertise if your referral base can generate more than you need.

You make your money taking the right jobs whether you are a big or small company.


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

ruger9 said:


> See, from what I hear around these parts (New Jersey), that is exactly where you WANT to be, and where all the "really good" contractors ARE. I have been told by many, many people "if you listen to the client, and do good work, and get it done on time, they will get on your WAITING list for you to do their home. And by the time you get to this point, you won't need to advertise anymore. Most guys operating this way don't advertise, and don't even have their name on their truck."
> 
> I realize it could take several years to get to this point, but it still sounds like heaven to me.


this is word 4 word absolutely true


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

It seems the common sterotype is that big=poor quality. I can agree to this to a point, but it all depends on the management. Proper training of your key people "should" eliminate these problems from occuring. 

Remember doing more work means you have more chances to make mistakes. Maybe that's why it appears bigger businesses make more mistakes?

Quality is very important to me. My trademarked slogan is "Quality Work Ahead (tm)". As I was driving today I was pondering expanding and elaborating on my pre-existing standards of quality. I am going to add more phots and include more standards about things like general site conditions, and not just installation practices. I think I may even pay to send some of my subs to Saftey Seminars (it's like $35 a seat)... 

Like everyone has said, when they were growing they wern't making very much and were just churning big numbers. I can see how this is very possible. I'm doing that right now, but I anticipated it as part of my growth strategy and knew I would have to sacrifice for a few years to reach my ultimate goals. Like I said, I plan to grow to a point, then farm profit for awhile before I grow more. 

Everything looks good on paper LOL but what doesn't look good on paper? Only time will tell... and I am an open book. Anyone who has been to this forum long enough has followed me from the days of being a project manager for someone else, to putting my plans together, and then finally going on my own. All of my triumphs and tribulations are posted here for all to follow. Like I said I am an open book. Stay tuned.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

copusbuilder said:


> Hey Grumpy, Thanks for moving this:thumbsup:
> 
> I don't have an issue with you or anyone reaching their full potential and growing if thats what they choose to do.
> 
> ...


Copus, perhaps my choice of using the word "business" wasn't the best choice. But the point is still the same, if your company can not operate without you, the owner, you are simply self employed. 

Take a Doctor for example. If he takes a day off work, quite often no patients get examined or treated, thus no revenue is generated that day. This doctor is self employed.

Compare a doctor to a hospital. A hospital has many doctors and even if one takes a day off, the others can pick up the slack and revenues are still generated. These doctors are not self employed. Even if the CEO takes a few weeks off, the hospital still generates revenues. He has financial independance (for the most part).

You said you put your workers on larger jobs when you go out of town, but in my trades, very seldom do jobs last longer than a coupe days. Also you really have to have good employees you can trust to leave them un-attended. Many of the owner operator types constantly complain that their workers need their constant attention to get jobs done right. If this is true, this person needs new workers, but I actually think it's actually a flaw of the boss not being able to let go. 

It was not my intention to insult those who choose to stay small. I just absolutely do not see the point to it what so ever. All the reasons you mentioned for being small are the exact same reasons I want to be big. I've said it quite a few times, I want a business that can operate without me. That means I want time to spend with my family. I'd like to be able to take two vacations a year and not shut down business operations.

Look at it this way; if I were an owner operator type, like yourself, and I have a high margin, I don't need to work alot. BUT what about my helpers who are paid hourly? Sure we are working 3 days a week and I am pulling in $70k a year... what are they earning $12k? Unless they are workign for the fun of it, and have a rich wife or something, I don't know how you can keep an employee for very long. I couldn't support my family working 3 days a week. 

You could be right, growth may be a challenge I can't live without, but I have become very goal oriented and have since tried to always rise to a challenge. I am an extremely stubbor person which is sometimes a good thing and sometimes a bad thing, but I have a set goal and I am very focused on achieving that goal... Once I do acheive that goal, if I find that my quality of life is not as I had intended, I will have to sit back and re-assess and re-evaluate my goals and strategies exactly as you did.


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## Melissa (Feb 23, 2006)

So, I'm thinking that in order to stay small and live well, you would have to charge more/make a much higher profit, so that you can take vacations and not have to worry about income coming in that week or two and you can still retire on it when you're too old to work. But is that possible? You would have to do some type of very custom work that is in very high demand to be able to charge what you want/need or have an extremely good reputation and sales pitch. Right?


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Right :thumbsup: 

Less the sales pitch..... who needs that?? :no:


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Melissa said:


> So, I'm thinking that in order to stay small and live well, you would have to charge more/make a much higher profit, so that you can take vacations and not have to worry about income coming in that week or two and you can still retire on it when you're too old to work. But is that possible? You would have to do some type of very custom work that is in very high demand to be able to charge what you want/need or have an extremely good reputation and sales pitch. Right?


You would not necessarily have to charge more because you would be more efficient/productive as a small company. Your husband IMO has the right idea. He is servicing the client=good reputation=charge a little more=branding=word of mouth.

I would love to be proven wrong.......somebody show me a full service kitchen and bath remodeling company with more than 20 employees. If you find one, then I will show you one stressed out owner/manager/operator that could be just as profitable at less than 5 employees.

The truth is if you get an employee as good, or as close to as good ,as you then he will more than likely go out on his own. I see it time and again. Nothing wrong with that because this is America. I will even use my former employees as subs on certain jobs. This is where you can really benifit because they know how you want the job but now they are held financially responsible to a higher degree than if they were just an "employee". You will see greater production/responsibility.


Whether you are big or small, profitability is what you want to maintain. Pay your guys good, service your client base, everything else usually falls into place.

Sonny....Shell are you out there?

Anybody else that has/had a big residential remodeling company?

We are all ears.


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## specwood (Sep 5, 2005)

Gordo said:


> somebody show me a full service kitchen and bath remodeling company with more than 20 employees. If you find one, then I will show you one stressed out owner/manager/operator that could be just as profitable at less than 5 employees.



http://www.qualifiedremodeler.com/2005Top500.pdf


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

specwood said:


> http://www.qualifiedremodeler.com/2005Top500.pdf


Thanks Spec. I will check this out later today.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Melissa said:


> So, I'm thinking that in order to stay small and live well, you would have to charge more/make a much higher profit, so that you can take vacations and not have to worry about income coming in that week or two and you can still retire on it when you're too old to work. But is that possible? You would have to do some type of very custom work that is in very high demand to be able to charge what you want/need or have an extremely good reputation and sales pitch. Right?


It is very possible, with the right reputation, image and sales presentation... then obviously delivering what you promise during your sales pitch. Melissa afer reading many of your posts, you seem to think it's impossible to make a good margin on your work. You must be doing something wrong IMO. I'm usually not the cheapest, and haven't been for years, yet we do ok. It's all about convincing the customer that you are worth what you are asking.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Gordo said:


> show me a full service kitchen and bath remodeling company with more than 20 employees. If you find one, then I will show you one stressed out owner/manager/operator


 With proper systems in place, systems to deal with the usual problems that arise every day, and with well trained staff the manager need not be stressed out. I mean jeez guys, there are huge corporations with thousands of employees all across the world. Why do we make it seem like running a small business is impossible? Just look at the list posted above.

Honestly though I have problems every day, I always have and always will, the only time I am really stressed out is when work is slow and money is slow. I've said many many times my stress level is directly tied in with my bank account balance.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Gordo said:


> You would not necessarily have to charge more because you would be more efficient/productive as a small company. Your husband IMO has the right idea. He is servicing the client=good reputation=charge a little more=branding=word of mouth.
> 
> I would love to be proven wrong.......somebody show me a full service kitchen and bath remodeling company with more than 20 employees. If you find one, then I will show you one stressed out owner/manager/operator that could be just as profitable at less than 5 employees.
> 
> ...



I think you are pretty much on target. Efficency with a smaller crewwill outperform size any day.

Below is a quote from my website: 

A PROMISE: in 1996 Copus Construction had a work crew of 25 and an office crew of 6 including a full time advertising person. We had three large billboards, displays at bank of america and signs on kroger shopping carts. I steadily saw the quality of our work deteriorate. There is a reason why there are no nationwide remodeling businesses, it is impossible to manage on a larger scale. We are now a company that maintains a small workforce of 6 people. Our quality is back to where I can sleep at night again. 

Now in fairness to Grumpy he is a roofer and you likely do not see a lot of repeat business. Is it going to be smooth sailing??? 
http://www.contractortalk.com/showthread.php?t=10644


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## pwrpapa (Jul 3, 2005)

copusbuilder said:


> Now in fairness to Grumpy he is a roofer and you likely do not see a lot of repeat business. Is it going to be smooth sailing???
> http://www.contractortalk.com/showthread.php?t=10644


It's pretty hard to get repeat business, When a roof last for 20yrs.
Hell, I'll be dead by that time.
This is the number one reason I got out of the contracting arena.


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## pwrpapa (Jul 3, 2005)

*What gets me is I thought I did have a fool proof method of catching crap like this, by sending out a person to remeasure everything before we cash the down payment check, order materials, and schedule the work. 

Ok I acknowledge that the estimator is an idiot and now he's gone because of a drug problem. I acknolwedge the installer is/was a hack and he's gone as well. It doesn't suprise me at all that these guys both messed up; but what is shocking is that someone with years and years of expeirence, who is supposed to know what's going, would allow something like this to slip through.*

HAHA, Grumpys fool proof system was to hire drug addicts an hacks.LOL


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

pwrpapa said:


> *What gets me is I thought I did have a fool proof method of catching crap like this, by sending out a person to remeasure everything before we cash the down payment check, order materials, and schedule the work.
> 
> Ok I acknowledge that the estimator is an idiot and now he's gone because of a drug problem. I acknolwedge the installer is/was a hack and he's gone as well. It doesn't suprise me at all that these guys both messed up; but what is shocking is that someone with years and years of expeirence, who is supposed to know what's going, would allow something like this to slip through.*
> 
> HAHA, Grumpys fool proof system was to hire drug addicts an hacks.LOL


When it's not their business that's pretty much what you are going to get. Of course you can put rose colored glasses on and all will be fine!

I have seen people work their ass off their whole life to make a business grow. 
When you are putting all your effort into the business you can't see the forest for the trees.
I have known a few who finally got to where they wanted to be but they had grown away from their families and ended up with the wife divorcing and ruining the business....So in the end they had nothing?

I had my wife tell me I was an ******* when we were going and going. I realized she was right and downsized. It saved my marriage and lifted mounds of stress off of me.

But that's what being a smart business man is all about. You have to control your business and not let it control you:thumbup:


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## Shellbuilder (May 14, 2006)

Gordo said:


> You would not necessarily have to charge more because you would be more efficient/productive as a small company. Your husband IMO has the right idea. He is servicing the client=good reputation=charge a little more=branding=word of mouth.
> 
> I would love to be proven wrong.......somebody show me a full service kitchen and bath remodeling company with more than 20 employees. If you find one, then I will show you one stressed out owner/manager/operator that could be just as profitable at less than 5 employees.
> 
> ...


Gordo,
It can be done, in fact there are several companies here doing it,,Greenwich, Accent, Marjos...don't know if they are doing the right thing or not but it is being done. I had maxed at 28 employees at one time doing additions kitchens and baths for a while. I was stressed , theres no doubt. The construction company owners who can do this are the guys who are the best coach, the best managers and know how to build teams. This is pretty typical of the great CEOs of our world. I will admit that i took a position of doing a good job and made money and did a lot of work by refferrral for such a large company, but I admit that I was really not the coach. manager type of leader that could keep a company together. I admire anyone who can run a remodeling company and has those qualities. Over the years I attended many of the RC shows and the common ground for the leaders in our industry was leadership. Fortunately for me , the remodeling business can be whatever you want it to be, I'v chosen to get away from employees and so many customers but I really like hearing success stories, Someone post some good news here once in a while.


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

Wow, good info here.

Keep it going, guys!!!


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## Gordo (Feb 21, 2006)

Shellbuilder said:


> Gordo,
> It can be done, in fact there are several companies here doing it,,Greenwich, Accent, Marjos...don't know if they are doing the right thing or not but it is being done. I had maxed at 28 employees at one time doing additions kitchens and baths for a while. I was stressed , theres no doubt. The construction company owners who can do this are the guys who are the best coach, the best managers and know how to build teams. This is pretty typical of the great CEOs of our world. I will admit that i took a position of doing a good job and made money and did a lot of work by refferrral for such a large company, but I admit that I was really not the coach. manager type of leader that could keep a company together. I admire anyone who can run a remodeling company and has those qualities. Over the years I attended many of the RC shows and the common ground for the leaders in our industry was leadership. Fortunately for me , the remodeling business can be whatever you want it to be, I'v chosen to get away from employees and so many customers but I really like hearing success stories, Someone post some good news here once in a while.



Thanks Shell. Were you able to sell your company at a profit? Or did you absolve and start the new company? 

I am trying to figure out if going big is worth the time invested or stay smaller making a good living with my sanity intact?

Personally, I would like to stay small and manage my profits in retirement. 

As far as the competition you listed above all I am hearing is horror stories about 2 of the three. The complaints mainly revolve around customer service during the remodeling process which leads me to believe bigger is not better. Once you lose that bond with the client its hard to get back. That personal touch has got to be there on a continual basis. I definetly respect everybodys opinion here so thank you all.


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## George Z (Dec 23, 2004)

I don't see the problem with any of the two opinions on this.

I agree with Grumpy,
the way to free time, time with your family or time for anything,
is making the business run without you.
I have a contractor friend here in Toronto,
he has been in the business for 20 years.
He had to shut down everything even his Pay per click,
just to go on his Honeymoon. I think that's pathetic!

As far as the frustrations and the ups and downs experienced,
there can't be any Peaks without the Valeys.

Maybe things are perfect in Copusland, but reality is that
owner operator businesses have endless problems as well,
repeating themselves day after day, after day, after day...

And Copus, 
I am happy things are working so great for you.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Copus, I am not lost. I know exactly where I am going and exactly how I am going to get there. I have goals, and plans and I execute those plans. 

Spinning wheels isn't the same as trying creative management techniques. Trying new things is sometimes an asset and sometimes a liability. Sitting still is stagnation and a sure way to go out of business. We must continually organize and re-organize our businesses to the changing dynamic of our world. It might seem nuts to you that I am trying something new, and it may end up being nuts, but it also may end up being a revolution that others adopt into their business strategies.

I think you are the lost cause in this case. Refusal to open your eyes to what is and what can be. Just because you at some point had the same golas as I, but decided you couldn't pull it off doesn't mean others can't pull it off, because others can, have and currently are pulling it off. You own multiple businesses and you insist on talking about the 2nd when I am talking about the first. You may as well be speaking chinese. 

I can not vary from straight ahead, I can not take the well tuned vehicle out of 5th gear until I heave reached my destination. I MUST be full steam ahead. When I reach my destination, at that time, I can cruise around and will be free to try other things. *Spreading myself thin is how I will fail at all my endeavours. Focusing on one at a time, whole heartedly, is how I will suceed.*


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Well George, seeing you are one of the "King of sales guys" I will take your comments as tongue in cheek.

I never shut my business down to take a vacation:thumbsup:
I don't seem to have the day to day problems you mention:thumbsup:
Your right, Life is damned good in Copus land because Copus made it that way.
I did it through diversification.

The problem you guys have is that you equate downsizing and re-organizing with failure. 
You fail to see to the side. You can only look in one direction and that is straight ahead.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Grumpy said:


> Copus, I am not lost. I know exactly where I am going and exactly how I am going to get there. I have goals, and plans and I execute those plans.
> 
> Spinning wheels isn't the same as trying creative management techniques. Trying new things is sometimes an asset and sometimes a liability. Sitting still is stagnation and a sure way to go out of business. We must continually organize and re-organize our businesses to the changing dynamic of our world. It might seem nuts to you that I am trying something new, and it may end up being nuts, but it also may end up being a revolution that others adopt into their business strategies.
> 
> ...



Hmmm, Very interesting! Ever hear of the saying "Can't see the forest for the trees?"

Even in the stock market people diversify, don't put all their eggs in one basket?
I think you are conufusing success and ego? :no:

I think you are the lost cause in this case. Refusal to open your eyes to what is and what can be. Just because you at some point had the same golas as I, but decided you couldn't pull it off doesn't mean others can't pull it off, because others can, have and currently are pulling it off. 

Now this is where I knew you would end up. I offer alternative plans to running a business and I am somehow "a failure" or one that couldn't do it. 
Once again you have shown how anyone that does not embraqce your phylosophy is nothing more than a looser!

It is a mind set that is hard for your type to change. It was taught to you and you cannot let go for fear of treading into the unknown.

What a pathetic joke


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

copusbuilder said:


> for fear of treading into the unknown


Treading into the unkown is all I do. I don't fear it and I do diversify, but in minor ways. Ways which currently aren't my focus, but could be if ever needed. 

I fear failure and not much more. Don't pretend to know me because you are comparing yourself and your successes and failures to my situations and beliefs. My perception of everything you preach in this thread is that "it can't be done and nobody should try. Stall small, spread yourself thin. Try lots of things." As I have said just because you couldn't do it doesn't mean it can't be done with some effort and desire. 

While diversification isn't bad, spreading yourself thin is. Letting go of plan A to jump onto plan B means you will probably fail at A & B. Jumping onto Plan B, after A is stable is a good idea.

Maybe it is ego. I love laughing in the face of guys, like you, who say it can't be done.. and then I do it. However the underlying goal is to be financially stable. perhaps not "wealthy" but well off is good enough. Having the things I want and not worrying how thery are going to be paid for, and having the time to enjoy the things I have with the people I care for. 

I can not accomplish this goal of financial stability unless I have at least one, preferrably more, self sustained businesses generating wealth for myself and my family regardless if I am working or not.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

So, as many insurance adjusters have told me when debating the merits of an insureable claim loss:

"I Guess We Agree To Disagree!"

Even with the philosophies being aimed in different directions, I think that we can all agree that no matter what business philosophy is discussed, we can all learn from it.

To quote James Cagny, (some old dude actor), from a scene in which he was being interrogated and he responds to the remark:

Interrogator:
"Lies! You are telling us nothing but lies!"

James Cagny:
"Don't my lies tell you just as much as my truths!"

Ed


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Agreeing to disagree isn't good enough when the truth is right there in front of us all but is being corrupted, I feel a duty to defend the truth... All be it maybe a trush as I see it and perhaps only I see it but none the less... It is my duty.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Alas,,,he admits to being "super roofer". 
Truth, Justice and the Grumpy way:clap:

I can lay a shingle better than anyother:whistling....No wait,,,,I can get others to lay a shingle better than anyother. I will shingle the world...Puleeze:no:

The world wouldn't be the same without you Grumpy:sad:


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Ed, you have some class:thumbsup:

Guess this is a case of....If someone doesn't like it don't click on it cause we haven't gotten very far:laughing:

Despite the differences I would love to sit down and drink a beer with Grumpy cause I could talk him into buying:whistling


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

copusbuilder said:


> Alas,,,he admits to being "super roofer".
> Truth, Justice and the Grumpy way:clap:
> 
> I can lay a shingle better than anyother:whistling....No wait,,,,I can get others to lay a shingle better than anyother. I will shingle the world...Puleeze:no:
> ...


Copus I don't know what world you live in. 

If you can find any instance where I personally ever claimed that I personally could roof any better than anyone I will eat my words and publicly apoligize. No, you will find time after time where I have said that If I were my employee I would fire me. You will find time after time where I have said that something gets lost between my mind which knows what to do and my hands which rush and are clumsy. No Copus I have never claimed to be better or faster than anyone technically. 

You will also find time after time where I have said you have to cater to your strengths and hire people to balance out your weaknesses. You will find many instances where I have said that I can get more done in one day with the help of others than doing it alone. 

Now you are just making things up to help your case. Please prove me wrong.


I think you don't understand that we agree on alot. Diversification being one. However where we differ is that essentially you are using your construction business to boost your other businesses. I think this is wrong. Yes, you should use it, however you shouldn't abandon it. Once it's built it should be nurtured and sustained rather than downsized and then disolved as you have said you have done and plan to do. To me that is just highly ridiculous... Build something up, then tear it down to a lesser level, then plan to do nothing with it other than discard it when you are done with it. 

That's just math I can't follow. Too much time effort and PASSION have gone into what I have built so far and I'm not even close to being done... for me to just discard it would be almost like discarding a piece of myself.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Wow Grumpy, you actually came down a notch:clap:

I really don't think there is much to be gained from continuing so I will politely remove myself. We do not see eye to eye and we can both run each other to the ground taking our moral high ground

Thanks for the comments and I am sure we will batter each other again.....:laughing:


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## dougchips (Apr 23, 2006)

Um, did grumpy win?


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

He's as hard headed as I am:whistling
I have a lot of other things to think about right now. Not to mention we have passed the point of this post being advantageous for anyone.
I will challenge the guy to a thumb wrestle but I doubt he would accept.:laughing:


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Gentlemen!!!!!


ARE WE READY TO THUMBLE....................





Ready.....




Set......




Thumble...............





Ed




OH!!!




Wait a minute!




Can more join in?


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

here - i'll try to save this thread

.... (3 minutes later) ...



eh .... :laughing:


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

You guys are sick:laughing:


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

No thumb wrestly required. Let's W-2 Battle.

Ready... aim... whip em out.


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## Flikka (Feb 22, 2006)

This was a very interesting read. I see one person whose aim is to succeed in his business to the standards he has set so that he will be able to sell it and make a profit off his hard work. That is an awesome goal and a successful one once achieved because it will meet your goals. Which will change as you go along and that's ok.

I see another person who has grown his business to the point that he feels free to persue other avenues in life. He feels that he owes nothing to the business and the business owes him nothing. He takes money, doing little, to grow a new business. What's not to be in awe over with that? I think that it is really cool. My hat's off to the person that can walk away from it all with a smile on his face. That is exciting!

We all measure success differently and at the end of it all, does it really matter what anyone else thinks? As long as you're smilin on your way out the door......I think not.

Cheers
Mary


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Nicely stated Mary.

"To Thine Own Self Be True"

Ed


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Flikka said:


> This was a very interesting read. I see one person whose aim is to succeed in his business to the standards he has set so that he will be able to sell it and make a profit off his hard work. That is an awesome goal and a successful one once achieved because it will meet your goals. Which will change as you go along and that's ok.
> 
> I see another person who has grown his business to the point that he feels free to persue other avenues in life. He feels that he owes nothing to the business and the business owes him nothing. He takes money, doing little, to grow a new business. What's not to be in awe over with that? I think that it is really cool. My hat's off to the person that can walk away from it all with a smile on his face. That is exciting!
> 
> ...



Very well stated Mary. If I were more articulate I would have said that

C'mon Mike you don't think we'd tell the truth do you:whistling


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## ultimatetouch (May 27, 2006)

Grumpy would you be interested in giving me a price for a roof and siding? We are building an addition in Evanston starting in two weeks. Its a second story addition. the whole house needs siding and the roof will be new construction and will have to be installed as soon as framing is complete. Message me if you are interested or not.


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Shoot me the address and the time you want to meet with me (assuming it's already built). Or if you'd like you can swing by my office in glenview (about 10 minutes from Evanston) or I can swing bye yours and we can go over the prints.

Sending you a PM.


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