# your billable hourly rate



## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

mahlere said:


> i was on a project with these guys this summer...they weren't billing $25 or $35 an hour....
> 
> http://www.evergreene.com/decorativepainting.html


different animal... not anyone can do that


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

world llc said:


> different animal... not anyone can do that


you have an excuse for everything....trust me, anyone who can paint, can do that...and the painters were getting $40/hr in the check +benefits...

you might not be able to start up a company like that from scratch, but they hire local painters all the time...


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

:wallbash:

..maybe some of the other 1,017 people that viewed this thread are paying attention?


There is a test....it's called life.


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

mahlere said:


> you have an excuse for everything....trust me, anyone who can paint, can do that...and the painters were getting $40/hr in the check +benefits...
> 
> you might not be able to start up a company like that from scratch, but they hire local painters all the time...


seriously, not everyone can do that. my girl works for a faux designer and has tried to teach me various finishes. some are simple, some i cannot do! i am not an artist, some people just cannot draw! i could build anything out of wood because that is simple to me, but not certain forms of art.

and that's still nothing to do with labor for straight painting


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

Celtic said:


> :wallbash:
> 
> ..maybe some of the other 1,017 people that viewed this thread are paying attention?
> 
> ...


so that still does not answer the question.

what is your business plan for painting?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

world llc said:


> what then would you suggest?? even the more well put together paint businesses like certa-pro who is franchised has competitive rates. i cannot explain it, i can only report it.
> 
> what would your business plan be if you were here as a painter?



I would not be the "competition" to/from the illegals and lowballers.

Hiring the college kids for summer help is great ~ but are they really "painters"?
Cert-Pro/College Pro Painters have an "angle"...what is their gimmick that seems to work so well?

You can be the best painter out there, but if you are not a smart business man, you have reached your apex.

Try this:
Place a different ad that grabs attention.
Wear shirts with a logo on them.
Wash the truck.
Call every one back that calls you.

All small low ticket items that will set you apart from the "man with a van" painting.

Up your prices a small percentage for 1st qtr. of '09.

See what happens.
The worst that happens is you wind up with some new shirts and you drop your prices back to what they were.


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

mahlere said:


> i was on a project with these guys this summer...they weren't billing $25 or $35 an hour....
> 
> http://www.evergreene.com/decorativepainting.html


Hey I can do that!



world llc said:


> different animal... not anyone can do that


Absolutely 100% correct.



mahlere said:


> you have an excuse for everything....trust me, anyone who can paint, can do that...and the painters were getting $40/hr in the check +benefits...
> 
> you might not be able to start up a company like that from scratch, but they hire local painters all the time...


Spoken like a true electrician.

In the "Painting" forum.
No not all painters can cross over to faux finishing.
I know a few that just won't get it when I try to teach them the basics.


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Celtic said:


> :wallbash:
> 
> ..maybe some of the other 1,017 people that viewed this thread are paying attention?


That's called site traffic and "ad click" profits.
Usually occurs where there is drama flaring up in a forum.
Administration loves it, it provides ad revenue.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

WisePainter said:


> That's called site traffic and "ad click" profits.
> Usually occurs where there is drama flaring up in a forum.
> Administration loves it, it provides ad revenue.


Maybe you should start your own website and generate some money?


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

1) they weren't doing 'faux finishes' ....they were painting a theater...

B) it would seem to me, and call me crazy, if you are a painter, you should have some artistic ability...otherwise you are just a guy who swings a paintbrush...and then i can understand only charging $25/hr....

see in electrical work, just because a guy can run romex and install an outlet, it doesn't mean he's an electrician...knowing why and how and when is what makes them an electrician...

but back to the topic at hand...if you can't faux paint, hire people that can...learn how to sell and manage...run a business...


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

Celtic said:


> Maybe you should start your own website and generate some money?


Are you *crazy*? And have to put up with bickering members all day every day?


:laughing:


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

Celtic said:


> I would not be the "competition" to/from the illegals and lowballers.
> 
> Hiring the college kids for summer help is great ~ but are they really "painters"?
> Cert-Pro/College Pro Painters have an "angle"...what is their gimmick that seems to work so well?
> ...


have the shirts
all vans match and are clean
on top of all calls, estimates, proposals, and invoices
don't have ad's

i do the raise the price thing when i get steady referrals and the same thing happens "we'll get back to you"

i go the extra mile and call them back after a week and let them tell me how they got some one else who is alot less....

now,i know i do better work then most the painters around here, i can see it. i care too much and know too much to do a lousy job. the only people that i am not better then, i am equal too.

so...i demonstrate value and educate them about quality of product and service and ask them to make sure everything in my proposal will be addressed down to the last detail so they could compare apples to apples and not get hit with "that's extra" by the other company.

i still did not get 9 out of 10 of these jobs, which is ok when i have enough work. if i did this on the regular i would be in financial straights, no doubt about it.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

go to a seminar by this guy, or order the DVD's....

http://www.mattsmithmedia.com/

let me ask - how much actual training do you (all of you) have in running a contracting business? and more importantly in selling your service?

my guess is none, all 2nd hand and School of Hard Knocks...

Edit to add- i'd mortgage my house than no one participating in this thread will do more than click on his site and quickly dismiss it as a waste of time, money or both...

but someone who is just reading this thread, will take a class or order the dvd, and will bring their company to the next level...


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

mahlere said:


> 1) they weren't doing 'faux finishes' ....they were painting a theater...


The website had flowers, a soft look, and the word "decorative"...it all kind of means the same thing to me since I do both styles of painting.





mahlere said:


> B) it would seem to me, and call me crazy, if you are a painter, you should have some artistic ability...otherwise you are just a guy who swings a paintbrush...and then i can understand only charging $25/hr....


I pay that guy $11.00 all day long.



mahlere said:


> see in electrical work, just because a guy can run romex and install an outlet, it doesn't mean he's an electrician...knowing why and how and when is what makes them an electrician...


why: because the house needs electricity.
how: cut an ugly ragged hole in finished wall and hope I have the right spot.

I am now an electrician.

neat.




> but back to the topic at hand...if you can't faux paint, hire people that can...learn how to sell and manage...run a business...


Now why didn't I think of that?


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

mahlere said:


> go to a seminar by this guy, or order the DVD's....
> 
> http://www.mattsmithmedia.com/
> 
> ...


you are correct... 

i have though, for the last 5 months, been attending a "grow rich" meeting with other self employed/business owners weekly to discuss and hold each other accountable to grow our businesses and work on them rather than in them.i have learned alot and have implemented many, not all, ideas and have had great success! i wish to have a better business, and i am taking the steps to get there.

this still doesn't mean a painter employee should earn that much


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

mahlere said:


> go to a seminar by this guy, or order the DVD's....
> 
> http://www.mattsmithmedia.com/
> 
> ...


I _knew_ it, you are here trying to sell your DVD.

All the self help posts you have made, the pep talks, all that "you can do it if you only believed in yourself more" mumbo jumbo.

Silly Mahlere.............or is it, _*Matt Smith*_?!?


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

WisePainter said:


> I _knew_ it, you are here trying to sell your DVD.
> 
> All the self help posts you have made, the pep talks, all that "you can do it if you only believed in yourself more" mumbo jumbo.
> 
> ...


I wish I could sell like him...heck, I wish he had an affiliate program...

but I do appreciate you proving my point...


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

WisePainter said:


> I _knew_ it, you are here trying to sell your DVD.
> 
> All the self help posts you have made, the pep talks, all that "you can do it if you only believed in yourself more" mumbo jumbo.
> 
> ...


elecrtavangelist?


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## WisePainter (Sep 16, 2008)

mahlere said:


> I wish I could sell like him...heck, I wish he had an affiliate program...
> 
> but I do appreciate you proving my point...



Glad I could help.
Now that my work is done here, I am going to leave this thread for the last time...

:clap:


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## paintr56 (Feb 4, 2005)

60 miles from Chicago averaged $72/hour in 08. All jobs are bid so some end up better some are worse.

Jim


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## Steve Richards (Mar 7, 2006)

Same here, Paintr56...72! Denver area.
Didn't average 40 hour weeks though.
Didn't want (or need to) either.

I probably could have charged $25 an hour, and worked 75 hour weeks though...maybe more!


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Everyone here has had valid points. I guess the thing to keep in mind is that there is only so much the market in your area will bear when it comes to hourly. Justifying an increase isnt hard to do, implimenting it can be a totally different game. IF I have to justify my increase, all I have to do is point out the cost increases in various aspects of my business. Take your complete job bids, not hourly T&M, for the year and after your dedicated deductions you should be able to figure out what your actual hourly rate is.

By the way, I wasnt slamming electricians or the other trades. 3 of my neighbors and good friends are electricians, and we swap work all the time. Lets face it, good natured ribbing is done amongst the trades all the time. I have total respect for the other trades and their abilities and results. Those just werent the fields I was interested in years ago. I've never felt looked down upon by the other trades when we have worked together, maybe because of the way I approach my trade. Heck, we all have funny stories about our interactions with the other trades.

Sure I can run romex, install outlets, ceiling fans, etc., but I also know when its time to call in the professional and have no problem doing so. I'd rather have piece of mind then a potential fire/safety issue.

This year I have done 5 complete kitchen remodels and 3 complete bath remodels ranging from 18k to 150k. They were my jobs and I called in the elec/plumb/hvac to work together on the bids. Not one problem. I'd like to think we all made a good profit on our various aspects of each job. I wouldnt have gotten the jobs except for the other trades I work with. I'm proud of those guys, I know their craftsmanship, and enjoy working with them. I get regular calls all the time from my customers asking if I know someone who can take care of problems I dont feel comfortable in handling. I refer those calls.

Do I "troll" the other sections on ContractorTalk? You bet. Knowledge is a wonderful thing. You guys have a Happy New Year and I truly wish you all a profitable year.


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## premierpainter (Dec 29, 2006)

Ok. First I live in Basking Ridge, NJ. It is 12 miles from Morristown...which is about 30 miles from NYC. I have no clue how you can charge only $25 an hour. Yes there is a huge Spanish area in Morristown, and yes they do work for cheap. I am always wondering who the heck is charging $25 an hour....NOW I know. How can you even afford to live in Chatham? Four guys on payroll should be upwards of $50+ an hour. We have around 20 guys and can charge less per hour and make more per hour. www.yourcostcenter.com will help most people out and you should look into it. We can paint a door for $30 and most smaller companies have to charge $60 because of the overhead. We have 20 guys paying into our overhead instead of 4 men. 
If you need work, I sub a lot and will pay $25 an hour day after day. Let me know.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

thanks to world and wise, i decided to get some estimates for painters at my house...and, well I hired a crew to paint my house for $3000....1900 sq. ft, 2600 LF of trim, 37 doors....prime and 2 coats. I never looked before, because I thought the price would be about 2-3x as much....

thanks guys...


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

i hope that you hired someone respectable that will send an english speaking crew to your home.


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## Bender (Aug 23, 2008)

2600 ft of trim LOL:no:


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

i would have been at least twice that

like i said, i figure @$45/hr....but I allow plenty of time to do the job too. and you do get what you pay for.

but I never bid blind either, so I guess we'll never know.

your probably full of crap anyway


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Bender said:


> 2600 ft of trim LOL:no:


what? i like trim:laughing:


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## Workaholic (Feb 3, 2007)

vandyandsons said:


> your probably full of crap anyway


 :laughing:


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## hoya (Dec 16, 2008)

mahlere said:


> thanks to world and wise, i decided to get some estimates for painters at my house...and, well I hired a crew to paint my house for $3000....1900 sq. ft, 2600 LF of trim, 37 doors....prime and 2 coats. I never looked before, because I thought the price would be about 2-3x as much....
> 
> thanks guys...


 
2600 LF prime and 2 coats--.33 per LF per coat $2574
37 doors prime and 2 coats---3.33 per coat $ 370 


Ceilings, walls, etc $free.00



Good price:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

hide your valuables


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

hoya said:


> 2600 LF prime and 2 coats--.33 per LF per coat $2574
> 37 doors prime and 2 coats---3.33 per coat $ 370
> 
> 
> ...


i was doing that last night:whistling


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## premierpainter (Dec 29, 2006)

I love how all painters think that it is not possible to earn a living. I have a painter friend who lives in a $8mil. house on Mendham Rd. in Bernardsville. He does very expensive jobs in NYC. I think that it is time for all to start raising rates. $25 an hour...dear god, I would be living in a broken down trailer. Once everyone raises rates, we will all be smiling...all the way to the bank. 
By the way, I like the input of other trades...mahlere everything that you said is right on.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

premierpainter said:


> I love how all painters think that it is not possible to earn a living. I have a painter friend who lives in a $8mil. house on Mendham Rd. in Bernardsville. He does very expensive jobs in NYC. I think that it is time for all to start raising rates. $25 an hour...dear god, I would be living in a broken down trailer. Once everyone raises rates, we will all be smiling...all the way to the bank.
> By the way, I like the input of other trades...mahlere everything that you said is right on.


thanks


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

mahlere said:


> thanks




Yeah Great Speech!:thumbsup:


But you still turned around and hired the $25 dollar an hour hack at $3K :laughing:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

rbsremodeling said:


> But you still turned around and hired the $25 dollar an hour hack at $3K :laughing:


Some of those $25/hr hacks are in this thread! :blink:

:laughing:


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

if a guy can't make a living, then he is not charging enough. 

most responded that they charge $35-45 per man/hr. not too many (if any) said they charge $25. 

we know what we can get in our respective markets and shouldn't take any less.

i enjoy working and billing my 2000 hrs a year @ $45/ hr, if i bumped it to $50/hr, i would loose most of my clientel..again thats just my market. 
thats just the way it is.

if a guy runs a smart and efficient business, it's amazing how much excess you can cut out...and still make plenty of $$$

sometimes less is more.

you sparkys and generals boast of charging like a lawyer or CPA.....yet you don't live in their neighborhoods.

King Solomon couldn't follow his own advice either.

happy new year....i probably took in more than you other trades did in /08 at my meager rate.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

vandyandsons said:


> if a guy can't make a living, then he is not charging enough.
> 
> most responded that they charge $35-45 per man/hr. not too many (if any) said they charge $25.
> 
> ...


let me ask...if you could double your rate and lose 40% of your work (or 800 billable hours) would you do it?

and my neighbors are Lawyers, CPA's, Resteraunteurs (sp?) and other businessmen...no none of them are painters....


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

mahlere said:


> let me ask...if you could double your rate and lose 40% of your work (or 800 billable hours) would you do it?
> 
> and my neighbors are Lawyers, CPA's, Resteraunteurs (sp?) and other businessmen...no none of them are painters....



if I could, i might. i would loose more than 40% of my clientel. 

it's not just about the contractor either...it's about keping the crew going, and their benefits. they need a paycheck every friday and benes year round.


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

let me ask you:

do the doctors, lawyers, restauranters, cpa's, no painters, and all the other rich folk that you rub elbows with also live in 1900 sq ft houses with "lots of trim?"

or are you just full of crap?

it's a wonder that you were able to break away from counting your stacks to chat.


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

mahlere said:


> let me ask...if you could double your rate and lose 40% of your work (or 800 billable hours) would you do it?
> 
> and my neighbors are Lawyers, CPA's, Resteraunteurs (sp?) and other businessmen...no none of them are painters....


bash away fella's

but at the end of the day i still have made it into a 700k house, own a few cars, and have no trouble paying bills or going away.

so if that is how you measure success...


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

vandyandsons said:


> let me ask you:
> 
> do the doctors, lawyers, restauranters, cpa's, no painters, and all the other rich folk that you rub elbows with also live in 1900 sq ft houses with "lots of trim?"
> 
> ...


nah...i'm full of **** about the house with trim and the painters

but Celtic posted a $700k house in your neck of the woods...far from a mansion...nothing wrong with that, but can your employees ever hope to buy half of that house?

and I'd bet you didn't buy that house on the money left over from your 4 painters...my original post wasn't even to bash you...it was to ask how you could afford to live in that area on those rates...you still haven't answered that question...


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

dude...truce,

i think you have me confused with another guy

i am in Chicago and not NJ....thank God

is said $45 not $25, 

at that rate, I can pay a guy $20/hr and take care of most of his health benes. after insurances and some shop costs, that leaves me $10 per hr, per guy, plus what I make...not a bad haul

no, they can't buy an expensive house on their income alone but 20/hr + benefits is a lot better than what the avg non-union guy gets in this area which is $14/ hr and no benefits. i sleep OK.

if they want a better package they can join the Union. that is the only way to go if you are going to work for someone else anyway.

anyway, i am not the guy charging $25/hr. that guy lives in his moms basement in NJ.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

vandyandsons said:


> dude...truce,
> 
> i think you have me confused with another guy
> 
> ...


oops...my bad...Happy New Year:shutup::jester:


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

God bless you and yours in 09


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Sheesh....next some of you will be laying your D**ks on the table to see who has the biggest.

Have a Happy, Safe, and Profitable New Year everyone...(even my fellow painters!)


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## Frankawitz (Jun 17, 2006)

I live outside of Detroit in the suburbs and all I charge for painting is $25.00 an hour plus materials and travel. and for plaster repairs I charge $45.00 an hour and materials and travel. I have to compete with all the laid off auto workers who all become paint contractors when the plants close down. These next few years your going to see prices come down, look at what Congress and the Senate are trying to do to the UAW as for wages. and let me tell you a painters job aint that hard to do.:whistling
The thing that gets me is the economy is in a place because people lived over and above their means. So I would says theres going to be adjustments coming.


www.frankawitz.net


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## cutnut (Oct 25, 2008)

vandyandsons said:


> anyway, i am not the guy charging $25/hr. that guy lives in his moms basement in NJ.


And he complains constantly on every bb about how the paint industry has been whored out.


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

world llc said:


> if you have heard of it, morristown, nj
> if not, something like 12 miles west of NYC
> 
> i can get by on $25/hr
> ...


 
?!?!! Can you tell us more about your company? I am curious as to what you do and you experiance levels and what not...

I just started my LLC and I am more or less a 3rd year Carpenter's apprentice and the majority of my business is being a Punch List Carpenter for one GC I work for....I will admit I am walking a fine line of Employee with him, but I do have contracts, my own tools, my own insurance and buy my own material...I bill him hourly at $30 (or at least that I was I am currently working out with him). I am also working on hooking up with another GC in the area. I bill what I feel my experiance is worth...as I get more I will be charging more. However, I also work on the side and I bill hourly anywhere from $18-(Friend) to $45. Altho I am not undertaking anything large...Most of my side jobs take a day or two and range from replacing a small set of entrence stairs, to triming out the second story of a new home([email protected] $18/hr:whistling)




As I sit right now, I am just a guy with a truck and tools. But this is the plan stan....

_"Try this:_
_Place a different ad that grabs attention._
_Wear shirts with a logo on them._
_Wash the truck._
_Call every one back that calls you._

_All small low ticket items that will set you apart from the "man with a van" painting._

_Up your prices a small percentage for 1st qtr. of '09._

_See what happens._
_The worst that happens is you wind up with some new shirts and you drop your prices back to what they were."_

I have been spending the past few days re-formatting my contracts, change orders, and completion agreements etc. to all be based off the same format so when you place them side by side they look very professional, easy to read/fill out and it looks like they belong with each other, as in, one is just an extention of the other. My truck had a sqeeking belt...not horriable, but none the less making noise...went out and fixed that even though it was 18 degrees...I HATE pulling up to a house when my truck is making a noise it should not be...first impressions....

EDIT: FYI, I am from Clinton, NJ in Hunterdon County. I just worked up by you, ripped out moldy sheet rock and framing in a 'Curves' for some mold "specialist" to come in and do this thing.


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## Damon T (Oct 13, 2008)

a business consultant once told me you need to charge at least double your employees wages just to meet overhead, 2-1/2 times would give you some profit, and 3 times is doing good. While that's just a snapshot, and you should actually go through your true overhead expenses for a year etc. to see how your own business adds up, I've found it to be pretty true over the years. BTW I try to charge at least 3 times my top guys wage, at least on T&M. Bid jobs seem to come in around 2.5 plus or minus. 
Happy New years y'all.


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

DELETED, for my own moral reasons...


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## DVWayne (Jan 3, 2009)

I propose by day, break it into hours, $50-$65. I charge by the job though. We are business owners, not hourly workers. No offense to those that do it. I just think that if I charged by the hour my clients would be wondering why I am taking lunch and bathroom breaks. I like to be on a set schedule - but it has to be my own.


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## world llc (Dec 9, 2008)

TBFGhost said:


> ?!?!! Can you tell us more about your company? I am curious as to what you do and you experiance levels and what not...
> 
> 
> i have it posted in a few spots on this thread (i know this thread has gotten out of hand) my company started as me painting alone 7 years ago and has grown to all phases of general contracting (alot of it sub work)
> ...


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## base (Apr 16, 2008)

Some here are business owners and some are not.
Some work by the hour and some do not.
Some make 25 an hour and some make 125 an hour.
Some can pay the bills with 25 an hour and some can not.
Some can sell a 125 an hour job to a 25 an hour client and some can not.
Some have overhead and some do not.
Some have employees and some do not.
Some have a 5 year plan and some do not.

**Some here know what a business is and some do not.


Guess the point is everyone is different.


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## hoya (Dec 16, 2008)

1 fish
2 fish
red fish 
blue fish
:w00t::w00t::w00t::w00t::w00t::w00t:


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

world llc said:


> TBFGhost said:
> 
> 
> > ?!?!! Can you tell us more about your company? I am curious as to what you do and you experiance levels and what not...
> ...


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## BryanG (Jun 16, 2009)

Charlotte N.C. 
I bill $35 hr./per man:thumbsup:


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## Handymanservice (Mar 1, 2009)

TBFGhost said:


> ?!?!! Can you tell us more about your company? I am curious as to what you do and you experiance levels and what not...
> 
> I just started my LLC and I am more or less a 3rd year Carpenter's apprentice and the majority of my business is being a Punch List Carpenter for one GC I work for....I will admit I am walking a fine line of Employee with him, but I do have contracts, my own tools, my own insurance and buy my own material...I bill him hourly at $30 (or at least that I was I am currently working out with him). I am also working on hooking up with another GC in the area. I bill what I feel my experiance is worth...as I get more I will be charging more. However, I also work on the side and I bill hourly anywhere from $18-(Friend) to $45. Altho I am not undertaking anything large...Most of my side jobs take a day or two and range from replacing a small set of entrence stairs, to triming out the second story of a new home([email protected] $18/hr:whistling)
> 
> ...


If I read this right, you started your own business, right? How can you have "side Jobs?"
If you own a business, you don't do side jobs, you just do jobs.

I charge $69.99/hr, minimum 2 hours. 1 hour from San Jose, San Francisco or Sarcramento.


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## BryanG (Jun 16, 2009)

I'm a painting contractor.I've got 18 years painting experience! I use to be a superintendant for the third biggest contractor in the country! I got tired of the travel and the hours and wanted to spend more time with my family! So I started my own little residential paint company! I will say that being self employed does give me alot more free time(to go fishing)!!


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## perfect (Jan 29, 2008)

WisePainter said:


> I find that is the final mistake a blue collar contractor makes before they shut their doors...
> 
> We work for the rich, we don't live with the rich.
> 
> :no:


WHAT TYPE OF PAINT DOES A REAL PAINTER USE?:detective:


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

mahlere said:


> shame when a man can't even dream of living where he works....


 I've spent 90% of my career working on homes along the coast that short of me hitting the lottery, I'll *never* have a chance to own. Lucky for me I spent most of my waking/working hours living Beachfront or close to it. Most of the people that own these homes rarely get to spend much time there.:thumbsup:


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