# Does anybody remember?



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I remember when I was a youngster growing up on the 70s with my skate board and long hair, my Uncle was in construction, he did cement work and he was "rich", he always had money to buy us ice cream or take us to the movies, he always had a new motorcycle or a fast cool car. I had a neighbor in the apartment building we lived in who got up really early everyday to go to work, he was in construction too, he framed houses as I recall. He made really good money too. As I got older I had friends that went into construction, they started out at the bottom as laborers, most only lasted a summer or two but a few others stayed with it, over the years they seemed to have more money then the rest of us too. I also remember a family in another town we lived in, they were "the" family, you know the one, every small town has a family that everyone knows about. The kids were all hell raisers, they had fast cars, got into trouble, had way too much money then everybody else. Their family owned a construction company.

I remember too the guys who worked highway construction and hearing how much money they made, the guys running heavy machinery, those were really high paying jobs compared to what was available at that time. A guy working construction was pretty much a guy with a really good income.

Which brings us to today and this :


> The ranks of skilled construction workers are thinning out across the United States.
> 
> The average age of a construction worker is *47* years old!!!!
> 
> ...


What the hell happened?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Does anybody else remember when construction jobs were thought of completely different then they are today?


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

> What the hell happened?


 We didn't stick together. Still don't.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

I remember those days as well, among other factors the biggest problem is excessive immigration and illegal immigration.


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## Creosote (Aug 30, 2007)

I grew up in Detroit and in the 70s you either worked for the big three auto makers or you had a construction trade of some kind. Having a trade you were thought of something back then. Now today you work in a trade and you are labled not very smart and have no money. What a shame.

I had a few good buddies that were rod busters and they made big money back then but they always were in the unemployment lines during the winter...


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

I think construction jobs pay about the same they did 25 years ago. Construction wages have pretty much remained flat while the cost of living has skyrocketed.


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## Creosote (Aug 30, 2007)

I always remember my pops who now is 73 and still doing some remoldeling work, saying, "I can't belive bread costs $3 bucks loaf, when I was growing up it was .10 cents". I say pops you made $5 an hours back then now you make $50 an hour, so its really the same price if not cheaper for that loaf...


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## Tom M (Jan 3, 2007)

I know only a few real successful builders. Every kid and cousin is under the umbrella of that original business. All of them have a house built for them and nice cars and none of them know what the hell is going on with construction. I saw the same things you say growing up and thats why I got in it. I would never put myself through this crap again had I known it would be like this. Some of those old guys were just flat out hard workers and new little beyond there trade and experience. Now since the housing boom you need computer literacy, marketing, specialty, enhance knowledge of codes, stronger contracts more updated equipment. Those guys just shook hands and worked they dont even know how to turn on the damn computer. Why should they there in construction not computers. Now you have people researching material and methods while being taught how to do it right on the computer. Now you get quizzed about technical data for products you may of never heard of before the moment you walk through the door. So now you have a lawyer building a deck during the weekend and his wife thinks she can design a kitchen and that handy Uncle or laid off union friend. Your just a grunt with dirty finger nails unless to put a army of guys that bang out a job cheap in a third of the time it normally takes. The youth doesnt want to get in the trades cause they are lazy from playing games on the computer and think they are above a laborer doing "wet back " things for money that couldnt pay a rent let alone a mcmansion. Sorry Im ranting again Im just bitter of late.


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## RYANINMICHIGAN (Dec 9, 2005)

Yep My dad was a super for a bridge builder and also had his own flat work company. very respectable jobs. That is also why I got in it. But also cause I never really had a choice. but I grew to love it very quickly.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

All of these types of "what the hell happened?" always reminds me of what George Carlin said:

"Sometime during my life, toilet paper became bathroom tissue. ..."

politically correctness? democrats? just plain evolving from our previous generation?

I know my dad said to me "you don't want to do my job (FAA flight specialist) because......"

I tell my kids the same thing "don't go into construction" seriously, most parts of construction are too tough to make a GOOD living. Sometimes I made really good money, sometimes, I was as poor as could be. I have stayed becasue that's what I'm good at.

I do remember my old boss, when I was about 25 maybe, sitting down to breakfast with me. He said "I'm getting out of framing and doing something else. And I will give you advice right now, get out of construction and stay out"

I didn't listen to him.

How can you compete when it is now fully acceptable by most americans to hire illegals to build your home?


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

What the hell happened?

Illegal immigration happened.

Oh yeah, I remember the days.

At 26, after a few years of roofing & framing peice-working, (which I always made plenty of $; Just blew it all, having fun), I decided that I had better get with the program; So I got my Calif. Contr. Lic. C39.

A year later added the "B' licesnse.

Four years later, I built my first personal home, bought and paid for! (This was 1988); Not million dollar home; Not a "tract" home either; A very a nice home in an established "estate" subdivision.

I relocated to Colorado in 92'. That's right about the time the illegals started gaining momentum in this area. By 02'-03', the contruction industry was trashed.

Was talking with a contractor who was retiring a few years ago. He was thinking back to a time when he drove to the office/yard; There were nice trucks, young men, some with new families, some buying their first homes, etc... For the most part, energetic, industrious, ambitious people.

"Today", he said; Now the parking lot is full of broken-down cars with ladders strapped to the roofs....no one hardly speaks English...they're all complaing that they want more $......or they asking for more $...It takes twice, maybe three times the supervision to get the same work done...the quality is nowhere near where it was years ago....

You get the picture....


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

The decline in construction pay coincides with the decline of labor unions, a union journeyman plumber here in Chicago makes roughly 40 bucks an hour on the check, plus benefits, the same guy working for a non-union shop is making half that if he is lucky.


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

When I was a younger man, it really meant something if people considered you a Journeyman. 25 years ago when I drove up onto a jobsite, I would see other Journeymen, plumbers and carpenters. We would greet each other and exchange chit chat, maybe some job gossip or a funny joke. All tradesmen respected each other and each tradesman took great pride in his work and your ego was based on how good you were at your trade.

I learned electrical from a guy named Bud. He's dead and gone but back in the day he was a God. He was the shop's best Journeyman and I was the luckiest guy in the world to be his helper. He was tough, but reasonable. That guy forgot more about electrical than I'll ever know.

Anyway, everybody wanted to please Bud. If Bud said your work was good, man you were on cloud nine! If he said you did a bad job, you would be emotionally crushed. That was the kind of work ethic we had in those days. I watched Bud like a hawk, I adopted all the tricks and techniques he used. I was his apprentice and god-damned proud of it.

The years passed by and I became a Journeyman Electrician. In my world, that was the best thing a guy could be. My **** didn't stink and I was admired and respected by the eager kids coming up in the trades. Back in the day, being a Journeyman anything was the cats a55.

Flash forward: Today when I walk onto a jobsite all I see are shabbily dressed Mexicans talking furtively amongst themselves. Instead of Led Zeppelin blasting from radios all I hear is mariachi music. Gone is the camaraderie and brotherhood. There's no longer anybody that greets you and talks shop, in fact, there are no Journeymen....

All the Journeymen are gone. Nobody but me remembers how glorious it was to be a Journeyman. All we have today are installers. All the Journeymen became contractors and the installers know how to do what they're doing but they don't know why. None of my guys are even aware that our work is governed by an Electrical Code. They know I like things done a certain way but they think I made up these rules about splicing and stapling cables. Even if they knew about the electrical code, they would not be able to read it.

My friends, the glory days of construction are over.

:sad:


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

L.B. ...so true....

A truck like I have today cost $ 10,000 in 1984
My good roofers/framers made $ 800/week

That same truck today costs $ 35,000
A top roofer'framer MAY make $ 1,000/week

Using the truck as an scale;
That roofer should be making $ 3,500/week

You can use the price of homes and get about the same result.
The $'s just not there anymore.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm kind of sorry I even started this post. Just crushing me in depression reading some of the stories.

But dammit, I tell ya, in the end it just feeds my desire to create a nice "private boys club" as I build my business. I want to return to those old ways as much as possible, creating a place where guys can get some of that old stuff back, make a damn good living at the same time and have some fun.

Maybe that's why I get so fired up about not shorting yourself in this industry money wise being an owner. The base to be able to provide any of that security starts first with getting paid *well* from your customers, without that you're choke holded into the same crap you hear here. When people start throwing words around like Honesty and dishonest when it comes to billing for your work that's what makes me just shake my head. Next time somebody thinks somebody is being dishonest by charging *well* for what they are doing, come back and read this thread. The first thing all of us need to do is stop apologizing for trying to create for us a standard of living as high as the customers we do work for!


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## Flacan (Aug 28, 2007)

Evidently the uneducated illiterate illegals are more efficient than us, as otherwise we wouldn't be hiring them. 

I'm not glad to say that, so don't get me wrong please.


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

Flacan said:


> Evidently the uneducated illiterate illegals are more efficient than us, as otherwise we wouldn't be hiring them.
> 
> I'm not glad to say that, so don't get me wrong please.


If by more efficient you mean "they show up every day on time" I would agree. It's not that they're setting the world on fire with their construction skills, they're the only guys who will show up on a Monday morning.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

100% agree there. In some ways, we did it to ourselves. Funny thing here in the Boston area, the Mexicans are getting underbid by the Portuguese. It probably won't stop until everything needing labor is made by China...including housing.


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## slowsol (Aug 27, 2005)

As of late this industry is killing me. I am young, but I play a lead carpenter on most occasions. I plan on opening a company of my own in the next 5-10 years. I don't think I am ready to go into business for myself. I would like to get some more experience for the sake of myself and my future customers. Unfortunately, unless you are working for yourself there is no money in it.

It makes me sick that I bust my butt everyday to meet a schedule for bosses that "could get it done on time if they were doing it". Of course they could get it done, but that standard of work (for me) is unacceptable and butchered. 

I am tired of working for employers that don't give a second thought about quality as long you get the job done and go on to the next one. Ten jobs worth a dime add up to a dollar. Well guess what? One job worth a dollar adds up to the same amount. 

I don't understand how you are expected to care about your job when at the end of the day you can barely pay your bills with the money you busted your butt for. Staying non-union doing the work I am doing now is going to top me out at what? Maybe $20 an hour? With crappy or no benefits to boot. 

These are my problems with the construction industry from a more youthful point of view.


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## KillerToiletSpider (May 27, 2007)

slowsol said:


> As of late this industry is killing me. I am young, but I play a lead carpenter on most occasions. I plan on opening a company of my own in the next 5-10 years. I don't think I am ready to go into business for myself. I would like to get some more experience for the sake of myself and my future customers. Unfortunately, unless you are working for yourself there is no money in it.
> 
> It makes me sick that I bust my butt everyday to meet a schedule for bosses that "could get it done on time if they were doing it". Of course they could get it done, but that standard of work (for me) is unacceptable and butchered.
> 
> ...


I have one credo I drill into my employees, you get paid by the hour, take your time, and do it right the first time. Doing it right means that rough ins look as good as they work, and trim work looks like a manufacturers brochure. I never have told my guys to hurry up and get it done, because doing it twice is going to cost more than doing it once the right way. Trying to save on hour roughing in a shower leads to things like a volume control valve installed upside down in a slate walled shower, that $100.00 dollars saved in an hour suddenly becomes $5000.00 to take the slate down to open the wall and fix it.


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## L. B. Condulet (Aug 23, 2007)

slowsol said:


> I am tired of working for employers that don't give a second thought about quality as long you get the job done and go on to the next one.


When you are a one man shop, you have very high standards of quality, but if you plan to hire people and expand your business, you will have to accept lower standards of quality. It's a harsh truth about business. Many guys will not accept lower quality, they are perfectionists and will spend the rest of their lives working alone.


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

The illegals are incredibly inefficient.....

I recall hiring a couple of kids about 10 years ago. In a matter of a few weeks they where doing TWICE what the Mexicans were doing, those kids were knocking down close to $ 100K/yr. each. They quit after a couiple of years to open their own biz...They got fe-up with working with all the illegals....They're doing great today, (they were smart & got into a biz that doesn't rely on illegals).


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

> What the hell happened?


 I've said it before but what the hell. Unions made the middle class of the 
50's and 60's. .. 

100 years ago big business and the govt. would send in the military and shoot up labor organizers. Now they get us to cut our own throats and get us to think it is our idea and a good idea to boot.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I don't know, you might remember more about unions then I do, but I don't remember a lot of unions in construction outside of the major cities and the East coast. It seemed like all around the rest of the country and here out west the unions didn't have that much influence or even existed. Do I have that wrong, was there a big union influence out here back then?


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> I don't know, you might remember more about unions then I do, but I don't remember a lot of unions in construction outside of the major cities and the East coast. It seemed like all around the rest of the country and here out west the unions didn't have that much influence or even existed. Do I have that wrong, was there a big union influence out here back then?


Southern CO had the Ludlow massacre and there were often troops in Cripple Creek. Coal was big down this way and I think copper. Colorado Springs has always been anti union because of the Cripple Creek mine owners who lived here. Pueblo has always been pro union and a big union town because of the Steel mills. Even though most of the Steel shut down you'll find the janitors at the grammer school are union probably making more than a janitor in Lone Tree. And a pension etc.. 

I've lived in the New York NJ area and in CO. My opinion is that the union raises the bar for both union and Non union alike and for small business owners. Why would you be a carpenter sub making $15 an hour when you could join the union and make $23 with bens. 

Anyway I was a carp in NJ in the 70's and made more than any of my friends. I was a sub in CO and tried to organize the framing subs to get a living wage. 

My moto is " Early to bed early to rise, organize, organize, organize" But other than my early experience in NJ it didn't happen in my working career.

And a strong labor organization could keep the illegals from setting a foot on the job.

OK the union had/have some problems but it's the baby and the bath water.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I hear ya, and :



K2eoj said:


> My opinion is that the union raises the bar for both union and Non union alike and for small business owners. Why would you be a carpenter sub making $15 an hour when you could join the union and make $23 with bens.


...makes sense to me.


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## Flacan (Aug 28, 2007)

tnt specialty said:


> The illegals are incredibly inefficient.....
> 
> I recall hiring a couple of kids about 10 years ago. In a matter of a few weeks they where doing TWICE what the Mexicans were doing, those kids were knocking down close to $ 100K/yr. each. They quit after a couiple of years to open their own biz...They got fe-up with working with all the illegals....They're doing great today, (they were smart & got into a biz that doesn't rely on illegals).



If the illegals are so inefficient, why were most of your hires illegals?
Did you fire them, and replace them with non-illegals?


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

Mike Finley; You right on with the union influence....(lack of, that is)
Union carpenters/roofers were typically ineficient as compared to the non-union. Our framers/roofers typically made more money than the union scale anyway....

Flacan; You betcha!
I was un-informed as to the legitimacy of the "documentation" at the time, (early/mid 90's). I had thought they were just Mexican immigrants. We went from 80 employees, to 7 today.

Today, the "big players" choose to ignore ther falsely "documented" employees. We do not. Just stop at any new residential construction site.


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## ultimatetouch (May 27, 2006)

tnt specialty said:


> L.B. ...so true....
> 
> A truck like I have today cost $ 10,000 in 1984
> My good roofers/framers made $ 800/week
> ...


This is the exact same thing I think of every day. It is harder and harder to get rich. My dad took in a 100,000 bucks a year in the late 80s. Houses and vehicles were a lot cheaper. He could have invested in houses and two flats so much easier and been rich. The bottom line is people have to get paid more money and then they have to pay us more. Another thing is college for kids keeps growing further and further away..it grows way faster then inflation.


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

K2eoj;

$ 15/hr. as a carpenter sub? HUH??????

We charge at least $ 70/hr. for a carpenter

We pay our carpenters $ 23/hr.

I noticed your in Colorado.....

I would assume your "carpenter sub" is actually an employee miss-represented as a subcontractor, which is common practice here in good ol' Colorado.

Moving from Calif. to Colorado in 1992, this whole "sub-thing" was a business culture shock.....No wonder construction was such a rum-dum industry here! 

Colorado is chock-full of unethical/unscrupulous contractors......not to ssay there are none in Calif., (far from it)....just far more prevelent in Colorado... IMHO/experiences.... and, to be fair, alot of them just don't know any better........There are construction company owners in California who went to prison for far less.


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## woodman42 (Aug 1, 2007)

L. B. Condulet said:


> When you are a one man shop, you have very high standards of quality, but if you plan to hire people and expand your business, you will have to accept lower standards of quality. It's a harsh truth about business. Many guys will not accept lower quality, they are perfectionists and will spend the rest of their lives working alone.


:thumbsup:I understand what you are saying LB. This is why I have kept my business small enough to control quility. 
When I had 6-8 employees it ended up costing me more money in call backs and mad customers than it was worth.
Now its just me and 1-2 helpers and I get better sleep at night and very happy customers that recommend me to their neighbors and friends.
No I probably won't get rich but I have a good life and don't regret anything that I may have done or haven't done.:thumbsup:


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

tnt specialty said:


> K2eoj;
> 
> $ 15/hr. as a carpenter sub? HUH??????
> 
> ...


So where are you at now. Denver??

My numbers were more examples but I could see a legit Carp sub in Southern CO making $15 an hour. He'd probably hope to make more but if it was 15 at the end of the day he wouldn't close his doors. Union carps, (the few that there are here) are probably around $23. 

You could probably go to Colorado's "State Statutes" regarding labor and compare them to California law and understand how the "Flim Flam Scams" can operate in CO. I've never been to California but coming from NJ, a strong Labor state, I agree that many "Colorado Guys" would be in prison for some of the crap they pull. Or at least swimmg with the fishes....

Besides the lack of state statutes in Colorado, another problems is that "cement overshoes" don't stay put in the Arkansas, and the Platte is too shallow.


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## Second Look (Jan 13, 2007)

framerman said:


> 100% agree there. In some ways, we did it to ourselves. Funny thing here in the Boston area, the Mexicans are getting underbid by the Portuguese. It probably won't stop until everything needing labor is made by China...including housing.


It never stops. Eventually the Chinese labor force will seem too expensive and stuff will be made in Buffalo NY, Siberia, Bosnia, or maybe even someplace you've never heard of.

Economics is a constant ebb and flow, just like the ocean tide. It's just as unstoppable. If you don't like things the way they are just wait, it will change.


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

K2;

Colorado's a screwy place, eh?

What I don't unerstand, is why the U.S. Dept. of Labor doesn't step in a put the "ka-bausch" on these guys calling their employees' "subs".

I've reviewed the U,S. Dept. of Labor's determination on employee vs. contractor.....it's fairly, clear/ black & white.

That's a joke son.......

It's kinda like the them allowing illegals to work under false SS#'s, etc.....

It's clearly illegal to hire/work illegals....however, they say nadda.....

We work the front range & mountains. We're actually doing a job in Wyoming currently.

$ 15/hr. for a carpenter subcontractor? That's nuts! That's below wages we pay. I know, I know, that's ambiguous, as the "sub" is actually an employee....mascarading as a subcontractor. 

What a MESS!

When I arrived in Colorado in 1992, I went about bidding on new const. as a roofing subcontractor. I was way over-priced compared to the competition. 

What was shocking, was that the "going rate" for direct labor was considerably more than what I was accustomed to paying...in addition, the WC rate, in Colorado, at the time was 59%.....Yet, they were cheaper? How could this be?

Well, as it turns out, the roofing contractors were calling their employees "subs", thereby circumventing appropriate labor burdens. So,...... while I'm paying, say $ 10.00 per unit with an 85% DLB, bringing my total to $ 18.50; 

The competition is paying, maybe $ 12 - $ 15 / unit....with no DLB. The roofers think they're getting more, but in the end, (self-employment taxes, etc...), they really aren't.

This practice continues today....I might add, it's extremely accomodating to the illegals.


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## RYANINMICHIGAN (Dec 9, 2005)

A couple of years ago. I found a reciept for Crete that was my Dads. don't remeber the year but it was $22 a yard.


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## fathersonfab (Apr 27, 2007)

*Perhaps a little optimisim here...*

Back to the original post.. Yea, I remember construction being a cool job. When i was a kid, I wanted to be a Construction worker or a Truck Driver. I remember my dad saying, Yes, those are both good jobs to have. Then in high-school I wanted to be a rock star. I played in a band and pissed away a few good years. All the while, my dad was joking, "why don't you just be a plumber". Except he wasn't joking! Come to find out, plumbers made damn good money back then. I wish I had listened to my dad.

So here is my optimistic theory. I think we will see a high demand for the "blue-collar" work force in the years to come. The internet age swooped in and took away most of the young intelligent work force of the mid 90's. Hell, I"M ONE OF THEM. I joined the band wagon and said, "I don't want to sweat for my money. I'll take a cushy computer job." Then I realized I hate it, but it was too late. Now I'm almost 40 and getting a late start to my Construction dream.

So now, those young internet kids of the 90's are corporate suits and don't know how to turn a screw driver. Either they don't know how or would rather just pay someone else to do it. I have been amazed at what people have paid me to do... hang pictures, assemble furniture, fix a toilet that wont flush... things I always saw my dad do. He either knew how or he figured it out, then he taught me how. Thats the kind of stuff you can't learn in school. It all comes down to the generations passing it on to other. Some where along the way a generation got lazy and ignorant and didn't teach the generation behind them to appreciate quality and hard work.

I know this may sound cheesy but, thank God for people like Jesse James and Monster Garage for making blue-collar cool again. Hard work and quality are things missing in todays culture. I think the next generation is going to see that and want a piece of it. There is no greater satisfaction than building something with your own hands and doing it well. The skilled trades are going to see an uprising and be paid handsomely for it.... soon, I don't know when, but I can feel it coming. I am going to encourage my kids to learn a skilled trade. I don't care what they do after that, but they will always be skilled in something other that just pushing a pencil.

my 2 cents...


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

I don't know what you guys are talking about.Everyone knows illegals are only doing work Americans are unwilling to do.Sheesh!


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Back on topic....when I was a kid, we didn't watch TV, we were outside.....a backhoe digging a hole was entertaining....the other day, i was digging in a sewer line, and noticed a bunch of kids playing across the street....not one was watching....and the scorn you can see on some faces when guys who have been sweating and are dirty go to the cafe for lunch......


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## Flacan (Aug 28, 2007)

tnt specialty said:


> Today, the "big players" choose to ignore ther falsely "documented" employees. We do not. Just stop at any new residential construction site.


Yeah, I've appraised about 5 houses in a manned gated country-club development called Mirasol, where I believe the Honda Classic (could be wrong about the name of the tournament-not a golf fan) is played, and I've run into many workers who I believe to be illegal. 

I mean, if you meet 5 guys on a job who don't reply to you (they look confused) when you speak to them, the odds are that a few of them don't have their papers. We are talking high-end builders and developers here.

I guess in the long run the economy as a whole benefits, but at the expense of law abiding citizens stepping aside for illegals? 

In reply to Jumbojack- Americans would do that work if the illegals were not willing to do it for half price. 

But, if the illegals weren't around to work the fields, etc, we'd have to put import tariffs and/or restrictions on many agricultural products, as we wouldn't be competitive against South American countries.


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## jiggyjack (Mar 29, 2007)

Put the problem where it stems!!

The goddamn kids. Nothing is good enough everything is beneath them. The whole goal nowadays is to be a slacker and get as much for slacking as they can.

I visit some other forums and you would be amazed at how F'in lazy kids are now. They feel the world owes them. The idea of working to get something is completely foreign to them.

I blame MTV and Mountain Dew, Public Schools and the Democratic Party.


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