# HVLP trim spray rough to the touch.



## music9704 (Nov 4, 2009)

I'm new to using a HVLP. I just sprayed some trim with a HVLP gun; some of the trim very detailed. It looks great, it tightened up to details good, looks smooth. The problem is it doesn't feel smooth, more like 2000 grit sandpaper or like a flat. Like over spray. Here's the technique used. 
Acrylic latex satin. 
First time. Low air pressure ( too low-45 at compressor) 
Paint to thin (about 20%) Used water to thin, added floetrol.

Second time. Put a second regulator at gun, pumped up pressure (45 at inlet, gun full and open) 
Thined pain 10%, used less floetrol.
The gun worked a lot better second time, but I got same results both times. 
I got a smoother feel with a brush. Like I said tho, the spray looks great, but feels like a flat paint. I understand there's a lot of variables, but any ideas what I'm doing wrong? The gun is the harbor freight cheaper one. The nozzle to small? I read post from painters using it for latex.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

music9704 said:


> I'm new to using a HVLP. The gun is the harbor freight cheaper one. .


Do you always use the cheapest tools/materials you can find? 

To get professional results, use professional tools. I'll almost bet your charging professional rates, aren't you?


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## nickko (Nov 11, 2012)

I used a cheap harbor freight hvlp gun to spray some oil base black impervo because I didn't want to spray it through my asturo gun. It was a mdf raised panel bar front. 
It came out great. 
Nicko


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Not enough paint on the pc. You possibly have dry spray.


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## Ohio painter (Dec 4, 2011)

I believe the paint is drying either before as soon as it lands on the surface. I suggest either increase the amount of paint, slow down moving across the work, move gun closer to the work or all three. Thinning the paint too much may also be a problem, better quality hvlp's can spray thicker latex paint. 
I found some scraps and practiced with my hvlp's to get the right settings etc to get the finish right. Good luck.


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## nickko (Nov 11, 2012)

I think those harbor freight guns only come with a 1.5 tip. That is to small to spray latex you need a 2.0 pr bigger. 
Nicko


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## music9704 (Nov 4, 2009)

Driftweed said:


> Do you always use the cheapest tools/materials you can find?
> 
> To get professional results, use professional tools. I'll almost bet your charging professional rates, aren't you?


First, you don't know anything about me, but your reply says a lot about you. It's not that I feel I owe you any explanation, my reply however, is in hopes you may learn something; maybe how to not be so judgemental.

The gun came in a box of tools purchased at a yardsale. Not that I'm knocking the gun. I have seen more positive reviews about the gun than bad. I've seen pictures of several custom automobiles sprayed with the HF purple guns, that looked great. I've been contracting for over 20 yrs, so I know, most times cheap tools, do cheap jobs. That was why I was surprised about the reviews and pics. 
The trim work is in a house I own, so I guess I'm not really charging anyone! I don't bid paint jobs. Sometimes I paint my own contracts. (remodels, turnkey). This would not happen for a HO, because I would have tested it prior (like on my own house). If it did happen, I would fine sand and brush. I guarantee, 90% of the time I am more picky about my work than the HO.


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## music9704 (Nov 4, 2009)

nickko said:


> I used a cheap harbor freight hvlp gun to spray some oil base black impervo because I didn't want to spray it through my asturo gun. It was a mdf raised panel bar front.
> It came out great.
> Nicko





Leo G said:


> Not enough paint on the pc. You possibly have dry spray.





Ohio painter said:


> move gun closer to the work or all three. Thinning the paint too much may also be a problem, better quality hvlp's can spray thicker latex paint.
> I found some scraps and practiced with my hvlp's to get the right settings etc to get the finish right. Good luck.





nickko said:


> 1.5 tip is to small to spray latex you need a 2.0 pr bigger.
> Nicko


Leo, I may have been moving a bit fast, I tried applying a thick coat. It was night and not the best lighting, and spraying white on white. It was really hard to tell. The places I know that are are think are a bit smoother. I think dry spray as well, I thought floetrol would help take care of this? Thank you. 
Ohio, the thinning could have been an issue. Also like you and Nicko said, the gun spraying latex could caused problems. I sprayed oil primer and it flowed well. The latex was harder, the tip is def to small. It keep trying to clog. I should have tested on scrap, I got in a hurry. The oil went well, so I was like heck yeah.....


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## aptpupil (Jun 12, 2010)

When I had this problem it was rate of application. I slowed down and put it on thicker and it worked well for me. Good luck.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Sherwin-Williams opened a new store not far from me and had their grand opening a couple of Saturdays back. I stopped by to get 10 gallons of ceiling paint. They had some of their technical people there. Among then was a person whose name tag said she was a chemist. While waiting to have my paint shaken, I overhead her talking to some Hispanics about cutting latex paint. They were discussing using windshield washer fluid instead of Floetrol. Huh? What? When the others walked away, I asked, "Really?" She confirmed that the idea wasn't new to her and said to just be sure to use the 0 degree formulation of the product. 

I gave it a shot (literally) and it does seem to work pretty well. The blue tint in the fluid just disappears (if you're wondering about that).


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## music9704 (Nov 4, 2009)

txgencon said:


> windshield washer fluid instead of Floetrol
> 
> I gave it a shot (literally) and it does seem to work pretty well. The blue tint in the fluid just disappears (if you're wondering about that).


I just saw this on youtube a few days ago. I was like you; Really? The guy on the video really seemed like he knew what he was doing tho. I'm glad you confirmed.


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

Windex is mostly ammonia & alcohol, both of which are common in water based paints. They both evaporate faster than water, so it makes sense to me.

It sounds like too much air, for the volume of finish. The finish is drying before it hits the surface. Normally this happens with hot air from turbines, but not with conversion guns. Cut the air, & apply wetter.
Do you have a pressurized cup, or remote cup? With a remote cup (or pot), you can bump product pressure to help atomize, without adding too much air at the nozzle.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Railman said:


> Windex is mostly ammonia & alcohol, both of which are common in water based paints. They both evaporate faster than water, so it makes sense to me.
> 
> It sounds like too much air, for the volume of finish. The finish is drying before it hits the surface. Normally this happens with hot air from turbines, but not with conversion guns. Cut the air, & apply wetter.
> Do you have a pressurized cup, or remote cup? With a remote cup (or pot), you can bump product pressure to help atomize, without adding too much air at the nozzle.


I didn't tell the whole conversation as I was just nuking some coffee in the trailer earlier. Turns out the chemist's *name* was Chemise (wasn't wearing my glasses) and she was in management (not a chemist). She did seem to know her stuff, though. She explained that the guys to whom she was talking all worked for a big local painter with about 20 crews (name is Hernandez, I think) and he had been using it for years. She said there were a lot of theories about how the practice started. Some think guys confused it with pump saver, some say a painter didn't have water available and he needed to thin his paint and washer fluid was all he had. She also stated that he (Hernandez?) had never had a paint failure claim they could attribute to the fluid. She also said he makes his guys have the store open every can of paint so they can smell it before they will take it out of the store. They do reject some based on the smell. She said she has heard of people using every imaginable fluid to thin water base paints, including Sprite, beer and urine.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

That HF gun is actually not a bad gun at all.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

rrk said:


> That HF gun is actually not a bad gun at all.


If you're talking about the gravity feed gun, agree. I used it for spraying pigmented shellac primer. Not sure I would use it for latex, though. I have used a HF HVLP pressure feed rig to spray latex. Wouldn't do it again.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

music9704 said:


> First, you don't know anything about me, but your reply says a lot about you. It's not that I feel I owe you any explanation, my reply however, is in hopes you may learn something; maybe how to not be so judgemental.
> 
> The gun came in a box of tools purchased at a yardsale. Not that I'm knocking the gun. I have seen more positive reviews about the gun than bad. I've seen pictures of several custom automobiles sprayed with the HF purple guns, that looked great. I've been contracting for over 20 yrs, so I know, most times cheap tools, do cheap jobs. That was why I was surprised about the reviews and pics.
> The trim work is in a house I own, so I guess I'm not really charging anyone! I don't bid paint jobs. Sometimes I paint my own contracts. (remodels, turnkey). This would not happen for a HO, because I would have tested it prior (like on my own house). If it did happen, I would fine sand and brush. I guarantee, 90% of the time I am more picky about my work than the HO.


You have been doing this 20 years, I have only been doing it 2. You use the garage sale special, I use a titan turbine powered HVLP. why would that be? Because even I realized you cant make a pinto a porsche. If your going to use bottom of the barrel tools, don't expect to get world class results

Will the harbor freight do what you want? sure with a tremendous amount of trial and error, but even then it may not perform the same way twice in a row. You could very well have it dialed in on this use but the next time you use it, you will have to start again. THAT was the point I was trying to drive across. Not necessarily a personal attack on you, but merely pointing out that you are chasing a pipe dream.

Let's say, for example, you do dial it in with a specific formula of air to material ratio and write it all down and feel confident about going to do actual work with it and IT FAILS MISERABLY. Now you are stuck on a job, and losing time and money quickly. Do you repeat the same mistake and buy another cheapo tool and cross your finger? Or will you have to take a massive loss and buy LEGITIMATE equipment and relearn how to use it?

Would you seriously show up to brush a house with a chip brush? Same thing here when spraying paint.

I hated spending over $1000 on my HVLP (at first) but am VERY thankful I did now that I use it more often.


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## music9704 (Nov 4, 2009)

Driftweed said:


> You havline en doing this 20 years, I have only been doing it 2. You use the garage sale special, I use a titan turbine powered HVLP. why would that be? Because even I realized you cant make a pinto a porsche. If your going to use bottom of the barrel tools, don't expect to get world class results
> 
> I hated spending over $1000 on my HVLP (at first) but am VERY thankful I did now that I use it more often.


I am NOT a paint contractor. 2yrs; I have probably lost more money in tools than you have spent at this point. I guess I could have used the craco airless (I have never used) or the other airless (I don't remember the name of) I just bought the second one because I was in a pinch on a job, I think it was about $400. They were at the other house. The plan was to brush, and spray the fireplaces. I found the hvlp at the project house shed so........I actually hadn't decided if I was going to spray the FP myself. I'm not a painter or paint contractor. I am a decent painter (better than a HO but not a pro). If it's something I feel I can't do, I sub out. IE. Gloss doors, most jobs that will be sprayed....I will paint some of my own contracts, not all. I understand what you are saying, but I have no intent on buying a 1000 sprayer, cause painting is not my gig. I don't have a problem spending money on tools.


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## music9704 (Nov 4, 2009)

txgencon said:


> If you're talking about the gravity feed gun, agree. I used it for spraying pigmented shellac primer. Not sure I would use it for latex, though. I have used a HF HVLP pressure feed rig to spray latex. Wouldn't do it again.


Yes I agree, not that I'm a true painter... It's not a bad gun, used for the right thing. I don't think it was ment for latex. The job looks great, if no one touches it.lol I will be moving in this house, so.... My wife threatened me if I repaint. I've been on this way to long as is. She said I was OCD about perfection. I'll probably repaint at the same time I paint the next two rooms. Maybe she'll not notice.


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## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

rrk said:


> That HF gun is actually not a bad gun at all.


Its not bad, I used them for years, but when I switched to a Devilbiss Finishline 4, the difference was night and day. I won't go back. Faster fluid delivery, better atomization, lower over spray, better part availability, this list goes on. I want to get a Techna next.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Several threads mention floetrol. I never use it when spraying. I don't think that a properly sprayed finish needs it.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Different conditions dictate different additives. That's why they exist. Floetrol is a thinner and a retarder. I use different products on my lacquer products to slow it down, speed it up, thin it out. It all depends on the current conditions you are spraying it, the type of gun you are using and the material itself.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Leo G said:


> Different conditions dictate different additives. That's why they exist. Floetrol is a thinner and a retarder. I use different products on my lacquer products to slow it down, speed it up, thin it out. It all depends on the current conditions you are spraying it, the type of gun you are using and the material itself.


Do you use Floetrol?


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I use water to thin acrylic or latex. No Floetrol for lacquers.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Actually yes, I have used Floetrol, but it was for an alkyd oil. Worked nice. Better then the Naptha I was using for thinning. I was having a roughness issue not related to dry spray with some SW oil. I did the Floetrol and it worked much better.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Leo G said:


> I use water to thin acrylic or latex. No Floetrol for lacquers.


I don't like Floetrol for acrylic or latex because I'm generally trying to speed them up rather than retard, especially when it's already been thinned with some water.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I'm going for the nicer finish instead of the speed of drying. Fast drying has it's own issues.

If you are thinning with water then don't use Floetrol, use one or the other.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

I've had poor experiences with Floetrol. I was super pleased with the results using windshield washer fluid. Maybe I just happened to encounter the right conditions (temp & humidity) and it won't necessarily be repeatable. Happy for now.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

What did or didn't the Floetrol do?


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

Leo G said:


> What did or didn't the Floetrol do?


Hard to explain. It made the paint stringy/gooey and gummed up the filter on the gun.


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

txgencon said:


> Hard to explain. It made the paint stringy/gooey and gummed up the filter on the gun.


Slimey is how I think of the effect.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Never used the latex version. The oil version didn't do that. I was afraid of a color change though because I was using SW Super White and the Floetrol had a very distinct yellow hue to it.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Depending on the "type" of paint there is both Penetrol and Flotrol. You have to check the product being treated MSDS to determine which you need for your product. 

Tom


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Maybe that's what the oil one was, Penetrol.

Ya, looked it up. Penetrol is what I used with the oil paint. Orange and white rectangular metal can.


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## txgencon (Jan 4, 2011)

CarpenterSFO said:


> Slimey is how I think of the effect.


Yeah, almost stringy.


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## ToolNut (Aug 9, 2012)

My apologies if I have already posted my story about cheap HVLP. 

I bought the Graco 3900 thinking it would be great for small projects like one door or a small amount of trim. I was shooting Pro Classic on a door. The problem was Pro classic has drying agents and levelers in it. I had to thin it so much to shoot it that it completely destroyed these features. Then the heat from the turbine dried the paint so fast it looked streaked when done. When using BM Advance or Pro Classic they do not play well with Flotrol or water if overdone.

With the new paints you need a unit that will shoot unthinned. There are some paints out there that you can thin and spray with no problems. Most of what I spray with HVLP is trim, doors, and cabinets, for this I use mostly Advance or Pro classic so I won't take a chance on cheap again.


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## Railman (Jan 19, 2008)

Just heat the paint before spraying. It just about eliminates the need to thin. 100 deg or so makes all the difference in the world. A pot of water on a hot plate, crock pot with water, or dedicated heater will do. Just place the cup gun in the water, or preheat paint can in the hot water.


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## music9704 (Nov 4, 2009)

Railman said:


> Just heat the paint before spraying.


I have done this with rattle cans. worked lot better.


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## music9704 (Nov 4, 2009)

Leo G said:


> If you are thinning with water then don't use Floetrol, use one or the other.


I had never used Floetrol before. Paint store owner said to thin paint with water about right, then add a bit of Floetrol. Not saying your wrong, we all know guys in the field are usually are the ones to talk with (C.forum). How many HO have come with( are you suppose to do it that way, the guy at the store..... Well let him do the job; right? Anyway, I trusted this store owner, he's had the shop a long time, teaches classes, IE lead paint removal.... Glad this forum's here. I've lost contact with a lot of my fellow tradesmen since I've moved. I'm having a really hard time finding new ones I trust. IMO a lot of con-artist/ hacks in this here town.


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## GCTony (Oct 26, 2012)

Music,

Like other have said, you probably need something closer to a 2.0 since latex particles are larger than the 1.5 can handle. Thinning helps some but you can't change the size of the solids. 

Obviously we didn't see you spray and it's something that takes some practice when it comes to fine finishing. I don't spray a whole lot of latex paint mainly because I feel it's very hard to get a fine finish. There's so many other products designed to be sprayed, that I never felt the need to "master" latex. But taking something from what i learned spaying latex (walls, ceiling, trim) out of a airless: Slow down your stroke and try not to "double coat" One motion should be slow enough to make up the one coat. With HVPL, your motion is about 60% slower than that of a good commercial airless rig. 

It's not the tool being held in a hand that makes the craftsman, it's what he holds between his ears. That being said, you can have a $2500 turbine but you'll get similar results that your getting with the $50 HF gun unless you Practice, Practice, and then Practice some more.


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## moocowman (Sep 24, 2013)

*Dry Spray*

I do auto body and paint as a hobby on my own restorations. You have dry spray. The material is drying before it hits the surface. I think your pressure may be too high and volume too low. Meaning, too much air pushing too little material. If your material is too thick, it forces you to crank up the air to suck more material out of the cup.

I agree with GCTony on Latex being difficult to create fine finishes. If you're spraying small pieces and you don't need perfection like an automotive finish, yes you can make it work and it will look glossy. If it's a larger area, you have to go oil based. If you want absolute perfection, an automotive finish. Everyone's mixture will be different because everyone has different technique, but the closest I came to a decent job with latex was 7:2 ratio using water and denatured alcohol as a thinner, 1.8 tip (I don't think Harbor Freight has a gun with a bigger tip), 30psi at the gun, fan wide open, volume at max. Water takes too long to dry and makes runs. The alcohol helps it dry faster. Thin the latex to the point where the consistency is like chocolate milk. If it's too thick, too little material will come out of the gun and you'll be forced to crank up the pressure. Too thin and you get runs and insufficient coverage; need to pile on many, many coats.

As for the regulator, you have to have a regulator with a gauge at the gun, don't use the compressor's regulator.

As for the post regarding cheap equipment, I disagree that your Harbor freight gun is inadequate for what you're doing. I save the good guns for cars. I still use Harbor Freight guns for high build primer and wood projects. I learned to paint using a $40 Harbor Freight guns. I did 2 cars before I bought an $800 gun. My results were no better. Proper mixture and technique are much more important.

As with anything, it takes lots and lots of practice. Even with automotive finishing, people's recommendations are a starting point. You'll always have to tweak it to your particular technique.

As for Floetrol, I've never found a need for it. As for windshield washer fluid, water and denatured alcohol has the same effect and you can control your own mixture.


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