# Okay, nervous about billing...



## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

I guess I’m starting to get nervous as I near the end of this job. I’ll try to make this as short as I can and would appreciate any input.
Guest bathroom remodel
Existing shower, toilet and sink/vanity stay. Removed toilet for floor treatment
Remove drop ceiling (yup, 1970’s construction) and 8 fluorescent fixtures
Patch all holes and install 3 canister lights over sink, one in shower, run Romex and wire as needed
Remove wallpaper from upper portion of walls around perimeter (not any fun)
Repair walls where drop ceiling grid has been
Install bead board and cap 4’ up around perimeter. I bought maple board, primed and painted 2 coats
Installed white fiberglass sheet around top perimeter of shower on wall
Primed entire room including ceiling before 2 coats of dark blue paint
Installed crown…6 joints
Removed carpeting and pad.
Installed 3/8” ply, ¼” Hardibacker and tiled floor with 2” mosaic tile, grouted and sealed
Closet and entrance door removed along with all hardware…sanded and painted
All vanity hardware removed. Sanded and painted 2 coats on complete vanity. She wanted the inside painted blue. Outside is white
Interior of closet painted blue, all shelves removed, sanded and painted 2 coats
All trim white
Trip to the dump
Shopping for all supplies and materials

I left out all the details that go along with each procedure, but will say that no corners were cut. I’m right at the 100-hour mark with about $900 in materials. In short, everything except the shower and sink has been modified or dealt with one way or another.
Uh, let’s see…trip outside for every cut. Customer only lives 4 miles from me. She is ecstatic with the way it looks. Thety never asked what it was going to cost and I told them I would do it "time and materials"
Bottom line: For such a small room, I’m having trouble presenting a bill for $6000 or so. They have been there daily and see all that has gone into it.
Any thoughts? Seem like too long…too much money?
Thanks, sorry to be so long-winded.
Rob


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

You're in deep sh!t. 

They'll either write out a check without batting an eyelash, or totally wig out on you. 

Do they know how much your per hour rate is? It seems like this is mostly labor in the bill. If they don't, you're headed for trouble.


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## DecksEtc (Oct 27, 2004)

Sorry to have to say it but, you could be in big trouble because you didn't mention your "contract"...


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm with Terry, what does your contract say? If it's time and materials, it is simple math to come up with the bill.

In the future you might want to consider communicating better with your client so everybody is on the same page as the project is going along. You might consider progress payments along the way also. You might consider never having more than a 10% balance due on the final day.

It sounds like you just tiled a floor and did a bunch of painting. If you can find more clients like this you might want to just sub out 90% of the work to a painter and start looking for some retirement property in the islands. $6000 bucks for what you are describing to me sounds like a once in a life time pay day.


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## GriffDecker (Nov 20, 2005)

Yea, if you didn't give a hard dollar estimate up front, they may be shcked. Try explaining everything you did (in as much detail as possible) -- maybe that will help.

In the future, let them know your price up front. Every customer I deal with gets an estimate in Excel which states, line by line, everything I will be doing. This helps me establish a price, since I allocate a price for every single thing I'll be doing. However, I do not let the customer know the price of every single line item -- I'll give them a labor price for each room, but I found that if you break out labor for every single thing, they will nickle and dime you to death: "I think $250 to remove wallpaper is too much. I'll just do that before you get here..."


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

I didn't mention (didn't think of it) that I have done a half dozen jobs for these folks in the past. Removed a built in oven and replaced with a custom corner cabinet $1200, replaced a bathroom exhaust fan, ducted to outside $750, some misc painting and furniture restoration. I have never given them a price up front and didn't on this job as their were too many variables. She hadn't decided on lighting. Installing and fishing wire for 4 cans is a lot more time consuming than hanging a fixture over the mirror light. They thought there might have been a leak in the roof causing stains on the drop ceiling. Turns out it was just humidity/moisture over the years. Even the tile was not known. She picked it out and it was sheets of 2" mosaic squares. A little tougher than the larger single varieties. 
I don't play "beat the clock" when I'm working and when the job calls for it, give absolute perfection. When I'm doing a subfloor repair under a toilet for a slum landlord, I make the correct repair and cover the repair with whatever linoleum tile I have on hand...different color and all. That's what he wants as long as its cheap.
There was an awful lot more to this job than painting, but even considering painting, it was fairly involved. When you look at the room, one might think..."well, this should take a week" When you start sanding and painting to match all the metal heat and exhaust vents, it's time consuming. You just can't slap paint on.
I have gone up on my labor rate by $15 over the last 5 years. Equipment and cost of doing business dictates it. 
I rarely start any job without an estimate and usually require half down for woodwork (building custom cabinets and furniture) That's what I do mostly but have done a great deal of drywall repair, painting, minor electrical, plumbing etc.
Just wondering what you folks thought of the price and time spent.
Thanks for your inputs...


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

Most bathroom remods I do land between 3500 and 5000, depending on material grade. That's a total remod on existing frame. Sounds like you might be a little high, but we only have your explanation to ride on.

One more thing: I think if your going to submit at 6000, don't be nervous, slap it down like you expect to get it, customers smell fear like pets.

Bob


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## Grumpy (Oct 8, 2003)

Learn from your mistake. Submit a change order every time the project changes.


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## reveivl (May 29, 2005)

I agree with Bob, slap down the bill like they're going to enjoy paying for it 'cos it's such a nice bathroom now and they can't wait to have a dump. Doesn''t sound like too much to me, once you have tile involved. Rich.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Glasshousebltr said:


> Most bathroom remods I do land between 3500 and 5000, depending on material grade.


Sheesh, - - that sounds cheap as hell, Bob, - - I charge an absolute minimum around here of $7800 for a small bath re-mod.

Right now I'm doin' two in the same house, - - each $10,000 plus. Nuttin' fancy.

Then I got two more to do in another house, - - they're both $9000 plus.


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Tom,
What's $7800 gonna get the customer? Could you elaborate a little please?
Rob


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

I don't think it's too cheap, in fact I make out pretty good on bathrooms. Now that's leaving the existing frame and not a plaster/lath or tile tear out. It can also get in to some money with a plumb or elec. upgrade as well, but most the time I find the cast in pretty good shape and whats a circuit home run if the walls are bare......let me keep talking and I'll get to 10 as well.:cheesygri 

Bob


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Robie said:


> Tom,
> What's $7800 gonna get the customer? Could you elaborate a little please?
> Rob


Sure, - - I just did a $7800 one about 2 months ago. It was a standard 5 X 8 bathroom, with the tub and window at the far end.

I gutted the room to the studs, ceiling joists, and subfloor.

Then I straightened the walls with sister studs, and the ceiling with shimmed strapping. The floor was straight to begin with (or that would have been a pre-determined extra).

The wiring was already existing (had recently been upgraded to 20A GFCI). I just traded the light fixture for a fan/light, and changed out the switch for new. Jumped up on the roof for all of 15 minutes to cut out and install the roof cap, then installed the 4" ductwork from a stepladder in the bathroom.

No real changes or re-locations in the plumbing, - - but I installed all new shutoffs, and an 'anti-scald' for the shower.

Next step I installed the insulation in the exterior wall and the ceiling. Then installed the replacement window in the shower area.

Then I screwed the existing 1 X 6 subfloor to the joists to take out any movement/squeak, - - then installed a 3/4" underlayment over that and cut out a 12" square for my tub drain.

Then I installed the tub and the drywall and spackled and painted the ceiling and walls.

Next was 6 X 8 ceramic tile in the shower area and 12 X 12 ceramic tile on the floor. I picked up two matching marble saddles, - - one for the entrance and one for a custom-matching, waterproof windowsill. The rest of the window got trimmed out with (waterproof) PVC jamb extensions and casings, - - and caulked with silicone.

Installed the new vanity, sinktop, and faucet, showerset, and the toilet, - - then the door and trim, then some accessories, and voila, - - it's a bathroom!!

I also ended up doing almost another two weeks of additional work while I was there, - - and before I even finished the gal lined me up with a friend's parents needing TWO bathrooms themselves (the $9/large ones mentioned above). Might not even be able to get to them two for awhile yet.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

But Robie, - - one point I want to make clear, - - don't let my price of a 'complete' re-modeled bathroom in any way deter you from what you have to charge for what you did. I realize you didn't change out the fixtures, - - but hey, you did what they asked and you spent your time doing it.

In actuality, - - if I was asked to do that 'partial' job, - - I'd have turned it down.

Bathrooms, in particular, are so damn small, - - it almost seems harder to do a partial then to do the whole damn thing.

I tell 'em "complete gut and re-model" or call someone else.

It's for their own good to go the whole route, - - most bang for their buck.

Of course, - - every one has their own way of work-methods.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Glasshousebltr said:


> I don't think it's too cheap, in fact I make out pretty good on bathrooms. Now that's leaving the existing frame and not a plaster/lath or tile tear out. It can also get in to some money with a plumb or elec. upgrade as well, but most the time I find the cast in pretty good shape and whats a circuit home run if the walls are bare......let me keep talking and I'll get to 10 as well.:cheesygri
> 
> Bob


After re-reading, Bob, - - I'm talkin' both labor and materials, - - with 'average grade' allowances on the fixtures, - - maybe you're just talkin' labor??


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

The job that I was on today has a $5,300 vanity top.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Teetorbilt said:


> The job that I was on today has a $5,300 vanity top.


Wow, - - when did she get them done?? :cheesygri


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Just kiddin', Teetor, - - couldn't resist.

Seriously, - - sounds interesting, - - what kind of top??


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## kenvest (Sep 27, 2005)

6 grand doesn't sound unreasonable for the amount of work you've done but everyone here understands what all this cost.

at least the homeowner was around while you did the work. the number of hours you spent shouldn't be a big surprise.

the only challenge here in my mind is what kind of number are they expecting and how did they arrive at it. if you can put yourself in their shoes and understand this before presenting the bill, it will put you on solid ground when justifying your numbers if they question them. of course, you should have some sort of contract dictating what the hourly rates are.

i would be concerned that they have established a rough pricing structure around the numbers aired on "property ladder" and junk like that where 2500-3500 seems to be the number. to justify the overages, you installed a subfloor, removed a drop ceiling and did alot of electrical work which is a over and above a typical bath remodel. 

your numbers are justifiable. stick to your guns. good luck! :thumbup:


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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

Thanks for all the replies. I'm going for it. Wish me luck and I'll keep you posted if I suffer any wounds.


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