# Another day another shower failure...



## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

So I had to price 3(!!!) shower failures today.

First two were trivial 20 year old shower,third was sort of confusing.

Gentleman called me price to it out...appearantly he got it done in November and shower is now not acceptable...Epoxy grout was sealed and now started fading..Gentleman stated on the phone that tile setter installed shower floor over ditra...I said "uh-ha"(well i figured that was the problem right there).He made himself sound like a victim and appearantly he paid 2500$ and supplied tile to install 40 sq ft of floor (straight rectangle,square walls) shower floor and half of the walls...

So I got out there to take a look...as I get there, story changes...appearantly besides fading grout(that has appearantly been sealed 4 times) tile also shifts while he showers and stands on (floor moves up and down)(he is heavier guy 300 ish pounds). I was not able to prove/disprove floor tile shifting myself since I am only 155-160 lbs and I am pretty sure shower pan should not be doing this anyway.

As I inspect the job I realise previous guy used kerdi shower pan and it amazes me that this issues uprise(ones gentleman mentioned) but then red flags start popping up like crazy...on my question why won't he call guy back to fix it,he openly admitted he made "cash deal" with the guy...(first red flag)...second one was that he paid 4k for whole bathroom remodel (wtf happened to paying 2500 to tile setter,you telling me drywaller,taper,plumber,cabinet guys,materials and everything else squeezed in 1500$?!)

Closer to the end I started getting a feeling that he is the kind of guy who goes online 10 mins before contractor comes around and immideatelly tries to prove to contractor that he knows what he is talking about (pain in the ass,that kind of was like third red flag...)

So as I was leaving I told him AT LEAST shower floor has to be gutted and i will give him 3 separate estimates as to how long it will take and what it will cost.
On my drive home I realised that money I would ever get out of this guy would never be equal the amount of pain in the butt I will get off him.

Unfortunately I dont have any pictures because he asked for a little discretion,but what you guys think is wrong with his shower?

I can see tile being wrongly installed on pan,pan being wrongly installed on floor and both being wrongly installed period.
Just curious if you guys ran into this problem before...

Therefore I sent him THIS email to cover my ass(just for those who are interested what I have ended up doing with him so far):


*Hi ******

*Thank you for your time and information provided today.*

*After careful consideration I decided that I would not be able to provide a bid for your project until certain circumstances change.*

*I did promise you three estimates which I am more than glad to do,however we have several issues.*

*I do not think I would be able to price this correctly for either Schluter system,regular mud and wire pan or CBU pan because there are too many unknown variables...*

*As I previously mentioned to you (during our meeting),as of right now I cant tell whether or not your kerdi pan has been improperly installed. There are certainly all signs of wrong installation but whether its wrong installation of pan,of tile or of both stays unknown to me.*

*So something that can be 400 tile re-installation can be 2500$ shower re-gut and vice-versa.*

*Since I am someone who cares for image of his company and with multiple years of experience in tiling,I think it would be unfair towards you to be pricing my estimates higher just because there are several unknown variables that we are facing at the moment.*
*I take extreme care and provide great attention to detail when it comes to estimates/quality of my workmanship and thats what makes me different from other guy who you have had bad experience with.*

*Nevertheless I would still be glad to provide you with estimates if circumstances change.*

*Here is what I can do for you. I can come,demo and take away all refuse for 350+tax after what I will provide you with three separate estimates on what and how much it will cost us to fix your shower.*
*If you happen to find out that you would go with me,someone else or just want to get 3rd opinion it would be totally in your hands and would not be in any way legally binding to myself or you.*

*Either way I appreciate your business and the opportunity*
*Regards*


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Well...................

What is the shower pan sitting on?


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

Nice professional response to a problem which we face all the time cleaning up atfer bad installs in any field.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

angus242 said:


> Well...................
> 
> What is the shower pan sitting on?


Particle board...he claims plywood,but I know that area,new development (05-09) so particle board...checked joists...spaced every 16"...


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

TheItalian204 said:


> Particle board




Seriously? Particle board? That's not an approved subfloor ANYWHERE.

OK, there's your problem.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

angus242 said:


> Seriously? Particle board? That's not an approved subfloor ANYWHERE.
> 
> OK, there's your problem.


Yup here,just to make sure where are on same page as far as what particle board is.

Here she is:





*AND YES I KNOW THAT BUT THIS GARBAGE IS IN EVERY HOUSE 2005 and up around here*


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

So, what ended up being wrong with the shower? Is it leaking? Or is there just some issue with the grout joints?


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

WildWill said:


> So, what ended up being wrong with the shower? Is it leaking? Or is there just some issue with the grout joints?


We are in process of figuring it out considering that I just saw it today,e-mailed him 2 hours ago and still working on trying to figure out what else could have gone wrong besides something terribly obvious-Particle board.


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## BrandConst (May 9, 2011)

skillman said:


> Nice professional response to a problem which we face all the time cleaning up atfer bad installs in any field.


If it weren't for hacks we would all have less in the bank. Don't knock'em too much!


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

What I mean is , what symptoms does the shower have? He says it's moving but you didn't detect any of that. And that the grout is fading.

When I find a shower that has fails, there is water below, signs of adjacent walls having water, tiles popping up, grout joints opening, etc... Did you see some of that? Anything?


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

TheItalian204 said:


> Yup here,just to make sure where are on same page as far as what particle board is.
> 
> Here she is:
> 
> ...


That's OSB, not particle board, just saying. Or at least that's what we call it here. :whistling


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

WildWill said:


> What I mean is , what symptoms does the shower have? He says it's moving but you didn't detect any of that. And that the grout is fading.
> 
> When I find a shower that has fails, there is water below, signs of adjacent walls having water, tiles popping up, grout joints opening, etc... Did you see some of that? Anything?


 Grout is epoxy which is weird that it is fading(it is)..its almost like he installer missed a spot but hows that possible on 36" x 60" shower?

Tile did not seem moving to me,install was done in November (source is one of convo with customer) or 12 days ago( source is another convo with customer) so I am kinda lost

He said tile does not shift unless you running water and moving int he shower...almost feels like there is gap between tile and pan and it fills with water evertime it runs,me thinks...


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

WildWill said:


> That's OSB, not particle board, just saying. Or at least that's what we call it here. :whistling


Quiet honestly I always called it particle board for simple reason of particles being pressed together (like in this case)...Typed it in google once to make sure,it gave me this picture...figured cant be wrong..just my english is a little lame..sorry


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

TheItalian204 said:


> Yup here,just to make sure where are on same page as far as what particle board is.
> 
> Here she is:


That is OSB, it's acceptable as a subfloor but not to tile directly over and would not be the problem.

This is real particle board:


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## WildWill (Jun 6, 2008)

Very odd situation indeed. Sounds to me like you may have to get the big fella in the shower with the water running to really get a clear shot of whats going on there.


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## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

I bet you anything the problem is there is a 400lb guy standing in shower that doesn't like to clean. Tell him you can remove the fat but it might sting a little; the lazy, well you cant fix that.


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## TheItalian204 (Jun 1, 2011)

WildWill said:


> Very odd situation indeed. Sounds to me like you may have to get the big fella in the shower with the water running to really get a clear shot of whats going on there.


Thats what I figured...just gut it since clearly something is wrong with it...take whats due for gut then proceed with care...double check everything...dont want to be liable...gentleman can simply have crazy mind over his weight so he might thinks floor shifts when he moves,God knows...:whistling:laughing:


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

BrandConst said:


> If it weren't for hacks we would all have less in the bank. Don't knock'em too much!



Not knock'em them to harsh as i would the consumer who always want cheap price but top nocth products on shoe stringe budget.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

At this point I wouldn't waste much time guessing. Doesn't matter what happened, you know it needs to be redone. Upon demo, you should get a better idea.


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## moorewarner (May 29, 2009)

WildWill said:


> Very odd situation indeed. Sounds to me like you may have to get the big fella in the shower with the water running to really get a clear shot of whats going on there.


 charge extra for that, and don't pick up the soap. :no:


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