# Hack Job: Slab only 1" above grade



## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

I have a family member (parents) that hired a hack to build a garage/storage building. Not a low price hack, but hack work at a premium price.

He poured a monolithic slab only about 1" above grade in the lowest part of their yard. In fact the aproach/ sidewalk to the garage door was poured with an angle towards the building so that water ran right in when it rained. Last fall they had that removed and wanted to see what would happen over the winter. Well, this winter came and as the saturated ground froze, it heaved up above the top of the slab and water ran in under the sole plate all winter. The osb under the vinyl siding is deteriorating already at the bottom. In addition, there is no house wrap or felt under the siding.

The only solution to the problem is too jack the building up and pour a new slab. I have talked to a concrete guy (the best in town) and he can lay a course of block around the perimeter of the slab, the building can be lowered onto it, and a new slab can be poured inside to the height of the block.

The hack that built it refuses to return phone calls. A lawyer has been hired. I am handling the details of this for my parents. They are simply not able to understand the problem and deal with it and the builder has preyed on their weakness.

Here is my question to you guys: Does the International Building Code specify a minimum distance above grade for a building slab and if so, can you provide me with the article number?

Thank You in advance for your answers.


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## Cole82 (Nov 22, 2008)

Don't know the article number but I think says 8"

Some one will correct if I am wrong.

Cole


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## scuba (Feb 26, 2008)

My advice would be to find a new lawyer if he can't answer that question or find out in about 2 seconds.

Here in California he would need to look at 2007CBC 2304.11.2.2 (as a starting point). You can grade up against a structure, but you need to follow the rules.

Also have him look up the requirement for slope away from a structure. Here it is 1/4" per foot for 10'. There are exceptions, but water must drain away and not collect at the edge of the structure.

The IBC is not as strict as our CBC codes, so yours may be different.

Good Luck


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## scuba (Feb 26, 2008)

The code for the drainage is CBC2007 1803.3

Again, it may be different in the IBC


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Thanks for the info so far. It should not be absolutely necessary to referance a building code. But, I would like to have it. I can't imagine a judge will be of the opinion that it is acceptable for a building to have water leak into it under the sole plates. At times as much as 3/4" of water is on the slab. Like I said, I did peel back the bottom piece of vinyl siding and the osb is already rotting.


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## Cole82 (Nov 22, 2008)

I just did a little searching.

Couldn't find the siding code on the internet but several manufactures of siding say 6-10"

*3. ROOF AND GROUND CLEARANCE​*Trim that extends down to a roof (dormers, second floors, etc.) and decks requires a minimum of a 2 inch gap to​avoid wicking. Trim, such as water table or skirt boards must be a minimum of 6 inches above the grade
 
*Ch. 4 Foundations: Section R401.3*
*R401.3 Drainage*
“Surface drainage shall be diverted to a storm sewer conveyance or other approved point of collection so as to not create a hazard. Lots shall be graded to drain surface water away from foundation walls. The grade shall fall a minimum of 6 inches (152 mm) within the first 10 feet (3048 mm).”


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## Diamond D. (Nov 12, 2009)

just wondering, but is your concrete guy laying that course of block temporarily, for a form, or is he putting in a full foundation. Or do you mean he's laying it on top of the slab, then pouring inside it? If that is the case then why even bother with the block, just form and pour. BTW around here it is 6" min. to grade, but IMO the more the merrier, where possible, water is the enemy, it also gives the termites further to build thier tunnels, they're not our friends either. :no:


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

Diamond D. said:


> just wondering, but is your concrete guy laying that course of block temporarily, for a form, or is he putting in a full foundation. Or do you mean he's laying it on top of the slab, then pouring inside it? If that is the case then why even bother with the block, just form and pour. BTW around here it is 6" min. to grade, but IMO the more the merrier, where possible, water is the enemy, it also gives the termites further to build thier tunnels, they're not our friends either. :no:


 I would just pour one too, drill some hole, put in some read heads and hook bolt it, form it, and pour. Here in cleveland it is 8" code. I hope he poured a "rat wall" below grade.


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

R403.1.7.3 Foundation elevation. On graded sites, the
top of any exterior foundation shall extend above the elevation
of the street gutter at point of discharge or the inlet
of an approved drainage device a minimum of 12 inches
(305 mm) plus 2 percent. Alternate elevations are permitted
subject to the approval of the building official,
provided it can be demonstrated that required drainage to
the point of discharge and away from the structure is provided
at all locations on the site.


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

As mentioned above the new IBC is 8" from the edge of the slab to grade and 5% slope for 10' from the edge of slab perpendicular to the length, however if there is hardscaping then it is reduced to 2" below the bottom of the weep screed or bottom of siding I believe. 

Is it possible to remove some of the grade from the perimeter of the slab? If it is this might be a way to avoid having to redo the slab. Just throwing out ideas here.... maybe remove enough dirt to allow a sidewalk to be placed around the perimeter. If the slope is towards the garage and it gets worse as a result of removing the dirt use drains in the sidewalk to carry away the water...........................


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## deckman22 (Oct 20, 2007)

Like Rio, I would think of ways to fix it without pouring a new slab if possible, just seems it may be less $. Since the guy may not even be around anymore to try to collect damages from, you may be chasing bad $ with good $ hiring a lawyer. 

I'd look at re-grading the yard or build french drain/retaining wall to move water around the garage.


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## Tim Garrison PE (Oct 22, 2009)

Codes? Did someone mention building codes?

I have a deep personal distaste for the IBC and have written about it more than once. In short the IBC is so bloated and confusing it's largely unusable. However, it's all we have and in this case, miraculously, it does provide the ammunition your lawyer will need: 

2304.11.2.2 *Wood supported by exterior foundation walls*. Wood framing members, including wood sheathing, that rest on exterior foundation walls and are less than 8 inches from exposed earth shall be of naturally durable or preservative-treated wood.

2304.11.2.6 *Wood siding*. Clearance between wood siding and earth on the exterior of a building shall not be less than 6 inches except where siding, sheathing, and wall framing are of naturally durable or preservative-treated wood.

1803.3 *Site Grading*. The ground immediately adjacent to the foundation shall be sloped away from the building at a slope of not less than one unit vertical in 20 units horizontal for a minimum distance of 10 feet measured perpendicular to the face of the wall. [etc.]

There is also 1805.3.4 which talks about foundation elevation above receiving drainage devices, but I dont' think that's the issue here.

And 1805.2.1 which talks about frost protection but that's about the depth to the bottom of footing, not the top.

A word of warning about lawyers. I've done enough expert witness work to know that most have never touched a hammer or saw and wouldn't know a mud sill from a king stud. Do not assume they know the building code - they probably don't and will have to "research" it at $250/hr. Anything you can do to steer them in the right direction will save you money and help your cause. If you're serious about the lawsuit, I would only retain a lawyer who does construction claims regularly. Just like you never hire a tile guy to build a spiral staircase. 

And also beware that you may win the lawsuit, at great cost, only to have the hack go bankrupt. In which case you lose. The only winners are the lawyers. I've been down that road several times. The ONLY time I would pursue legal action is if the opponent has enough money to pay should he lose, and if the stakes are large enough to justify the time and expense on your part. Bear in mind the opposing lawyer will do everything in his power to make it look like the problem was your fault. In a judge's eyes there are always two sides to any story.

Good luck!


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## catspaw (Oct 29, 2008)

lot of good advice so far but was a permit pulled for this project? i can't see any competent inspector approving a pour with the forms set at grade. just curious!


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

catspaw said:


> lot of good advice so far but was a permit pulled for this project? i can't see any competent inspector approving a pour with the forms set at grade. just curious!


Well what I would do is go to city hall and find out if the contractor pulled a pemit, if he did,then I would see if he broke the city code,if he did then I would ask the city to attach his bond, if he did not pull a permit, good luck with the lawyer. It may cost more than what it is worth. In court it will make a difference what that city codes are, nothing more,nothing less. Then you need to prove bad workmanship next. In most city you will need to submit a drawing with the permit, if he did and the city approved it, then I would think you are SOL. When you set up a garage floor you don't need to hang the forms for the curb prior to pouring it,you can hand roll them if you are good or you can hang them with curb hangers after the floor is in. The bad news in most city you cannot pour over an exsisting concrete floor, some will let you if you put a sand cushion, most will not,and I recommend NOT.


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> I have a family member (parents) that hired a hack to build a garage/storage building. Not a low price hack, but hack work at a premium price.
> 
> He poured a monolithic slab only about 1" above grade in the lowest part of their yard. In fact the aproach/ sidewalk to the garage door was poured with an angle towards the building so that water ran right in when it rained. Last fall they had that removed and wanted to see what would happen over the winter. Well, this winter came and as the saturated ground froze, it heaved up above the top of the slab and water ran in under the sole plate all winter. The osb under the vinyl siding is deteriorating already at the bottom. In addition, there is no house wrap or felt under the siding.
> 
> ...


The problem with pouring a slab onto another slab is that you will still have seperation between slabs, what is going to prevent the water seeping under the new slab that you are going to pour? I think you should grade around and just pour or set blocks for the curb. If the slab is not pitching the correct way that is a max 1/4in per foot or a min 1/8in per ft then you have a big problem. There are four possible solutions I have: sue, live with it, ardex the floor, jack the garage up and re-pour correctly.

"Just because I operated a backhoe dosen't make me an operator"


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

Tim Garrison PE said:


> Codes? Did someone mention building codes?
> 
> I have a deep personal distaste for the IBC and have written about it more than once. In short the IBC is so bloated and confusing it's largely unusable. However, it's all we have and in this case, miraculously, it does provide the ammunition your lawyer will need:
> 
> ...


 :thumbup:


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

Maybe install drains the length of the openings to divert the water from coming in there. And lay the course of block under the garage to elevate it. If you water proof the block and keep the water from coming in the openings I don't see the need to pour another slab??


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## AustinDB (Sep 11, 2006)

I did a job many years ago on a home that had pour drainage and similar height issues and all permits were pulled and inspections received. The solution was to make a 18" buffer on the poor draining side of the wall with a perforated pipe wrapped with a sock and covered w/ 3/4" stone which was properly pitched. I've been back to the site over the years and have had no complaints.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

CONCRETE MIKE said:


> I would just pour one too, drill some hole, put in some read heads and hook bolt it, form it, and pour. Here in cleveland it is 8" code. I hope he poured a "rat wall" below grade.


 
The block is neccessary because the building will be jacked up from the inside and supported temporarily. Then the block will be laid and the building set down on the block. After that all the bracing and jacks will be removed. Then a new slab will be poured inside the building up to the bottom of the sole plate. I don't know the trade name of the blocks to be used. They are the ones that have 1/4 of the block missing on the long side.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

deckman22 said:


> Like Rio, I would think of ways to fix it without pouring a new slab if possible, just seems it may be less $. Since the guy may not even be around anymore to try to collect damages from, you may be chasing bad $ with good $ hiring a lawyer.
> 
> I'd look at re-grading the yard or build french drain/retaining wall to move water around the garage.


 
The guy is around and has the means to pay, one way or another. In fact he has a decent job. He is a side work hack! I hope Mom and Dad learned a lesson here.

If my folks win and get a lein on his property and he does not pay, they are OK with that. They are committed to having the problem solved even if they never collect. I am documenting everything and the plan is to correct all of the problems with the building and pay for everything and then persue legal action to collect. 

The building is on the lowest point of the property and there is simply no where to divert water too. This is one of the dumbest mistakes I have seen. I may only be an electrician but I know that water runs down hill, not up.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Tim Garrison PE said:


> Codes? Did someone mention building codes?
> 
> I have a deep personal distaste for the IBC and have written about it more than once. In short the IBC is so bloated and confusing it's largely unusable. However, it's all we have and in this case, miraculously, it does provide the ammunition your lawyer will need:
> 
> ...


 
Yes,
I am doing all of the research for my folks. The problem is well documented. I have pictures from the past winter where the ground froze and heaved above the level of the vinyl siding.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

CONCRETE MIKE said:


> Well what I would do is go to city hall and find out if the contractor pulled a pemit, if he did,then I would see if he broke the city code,if he did then I would ask the city to attach his bond, if he did not pull a permit, good luck with the lawyer. It may cost more than what it is worth. In court it will make a difference what that city codes are, nothing more,nothing less. Then you need to prove bad workmanship next. In most city you will need to submit a drawing with the permit, if he did and the city approved it, then I would think you are SOL. When you set up a garage floor you don't need to hang the forms for the curb prior to pouring it,you can hand roll them if you are good or you can hang them with curb hangers after the floor is in. The bad news in most city you cannot pour over an exsisting concrete floor, some will let you if you put a sand cushion, most will not,and I recommend NOT.


 
This is in a rural area. You can build a million dollar house or a shack - no permits required. "anything goes" I may be wrong, but I cannot see how a judge would believ it is acceptable for a building to leak up to 3/4" of water under the sole plates.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

Thanks agin everyone for your replies so far.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

CONCRETE MIKE said:


> The problem with pouring a slab onto another slab is that you will still have seperation between slabs, what is going to prevent the water seeping under the new slab that you are going to pour? I think you should grade around and just pour or set blocks for the curb. If the slab is not pitching the correct way that is a max 1/4in per foot or a min 1/8in per ft then you have a big problem. There are four possible solutions I have: sue, live with it, ardex the floor, jack the garage up and re-pour correctly.
> 
> "Just because I operated a backhoe dosen't make me an operator"


 
The decision has been made to jack the garage up , block and pour, correct all of the other defects, then sue. 

A four inch layer of sand will be placed between the two slabs.


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## CONCRETE MIKE (Jan 11, 2010)

Doubleoh7 said:


> The guy is around and has the means to pay, one way or another. In fact he has a decent job. He is a side work hack! I hope Mom and Dad learned a lesson here.
> 
> If my folks win and get a lein on his property and he does not pay, they are OK with that. They are committed to having the problem solved even if they never collect. I am documenting everything and the plan is to correct all of the problems with the building and pay for everything and then persue legal action to collect.
> 
> The building is on the lowest point of the property and there is simply no where to divert water too. This is one of the dumbest mistakes I have seen. I may only be an electrician but I know that water runs down hill, not up.


 I am sorry, i hope it turns out for the best.


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## solarguy (Feb 14, 2010)

Agricultural buildings under 500 sq.' such as a shed can be built without permit..


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

CONCRETE MIKE said:


> I am sorry, i hope it turns out for the best.


 
Mike, no need for you to be sorry. You have offered helpful advice. This is another textbook example of why people should only hire professionals and not hacks.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

Good thing your parents had a contract with this "contractor" complete with a set of plans showing what the scope of the project was, the design and specifications which would have included a site plan. Other wise you didn't hire a contractor but a contract employee in which case the finished product is the responsibility of the owner that was his own GC. 

With a contract and set of plans showing what the project was supposed to be and how the building you ended up with isn't what the plan stated it would be...it's a simple matter of a law suit. 

If the builder was just some guy your parents hired to build the building and there were no plans addressing the issues your parents now find unsatisfactory...oh well...live and learn...next time they will know better. 

No doubt your parents will blame the "contractor" for their lack of diligence and forethought.

"hey..won't building the garage in the lowest point on the property be a problem with drainage?"

Too bad your parents, were they too aged to manage such a project, didn't have a relative or interested 3rd party to make sure they weren't in over their heads with a project that takes a large sum of money and a lot of consideration especially given the plethora of information and warnings available absolutely free all over the internet.

It's your money. 
It's your property. 
It's your responsibility.

If you (they) didn't have the knowledge to take on the responsibility for such a task or pay additional remuneration to have some one else shoulder the responsibility....you don't need a lawyer...you need a shrink 

or an endless supply of money.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

OK that was my rant/criticism post...this one is my attempt to be helpfull with a remedy post

Of course the least expensive remedy would be to divert water and make a place for it to go. That's probably impossible for anyone here to even guess how that would happen with out seeing the property. Perhaps a local excavating contractor might help. I hear they are hungry for work currently.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

mics_54 said:


> Good thing your parents had a contract with this "contractor" complete with a set of plans showing what the scope of the project was, the design and specifications which would have included a site plan. Other wise you didn't hire a contractor but a contract employee in which case the finished product is the responsibility of the owner that was his own GC.
> 
> With a contract and set of plans showing what the project was supposed to be and how the building you ended up with isn't what the plan stated it would be...it's a simple matter of a law suit.
> 
> ...


 

How about if I wire a stove circuit with 14 ga wire and burn someone's house down. Is it the homeowners fault for their lack of diligence and forethought?


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> How about if I wire a stove circuit with 14 ga wire and burn someone's house down. Is it the homeowners fault for their lack of diligence and forethought?


It is absolutely their stupidity to blame if they hire some one with no credentials or liabilityinsurance to wire anything. Don't you agree? It's the same as if you hired an employee and told him to go wire a stove circuit...who is responsible? YOU ARE! So your parents hired an employee to build their garage. He is an employee because there was no legal contract and he has no legal status other than he was working for your parents. Your parents are lucky he didn't get injured doing the work...as an employee...some one your parents hired....they would be responsible for his injuries....legally. And guess what...their homeowners policy wouldn't cover the injury because he was WORKING for them. He might well own the property the poorly draining building now sits upon.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

mics_54 said:


> It is absolutely their stupidity to blame if they hire some one with no credentials or liabilityinsurance to wire anything. Don't you agree? It's the same as if you hired an employee and told him to go wire a stove circuit...who is responsible? YOU ARE! So your parents hired an employee to build their garage. He is an employee because there was no legal contract and he has no legal status other than he was working for your parents. Your parents are lucky he didn't get injured doing the work...as an employee...some one your parents hired....they would be responsible for his injuries....legally. And guess what...their homeowners policy wouldn't cover the injury because he was WORKING for them. He might well own the property the poorly draining building now sits upon.


 
You are assuming some things here. I did not hire him. It is not my property, nor did I pay him or hire him. I do not know if he had insurance of any kind. May have, maybe not. He did have 3 employees. Maybe he did not even have workman's comp? I don't know. Could have been a VERY expensive project for Mom and Dad?

He built a defective building. Simple as that. He represented himself as being a competent builder. Very simply, only an absolute moron would pour a slab at that height. I saw the forms before it was poured. I told my father to tell him to build the forms 6" higher or tell him to load up his tools and employees and leave. Unfortunately my father, who I must admit is a moron as well, asked him if he thought they were high enough. No surprise, he said it would be just fine. I told the moron builder that water would run in over the slab and that he would be sued. Well for the last two winters 3/4 inch or more of water has run in and sat on the floor. He is going to be sued.

This was like watching a train wreck and not being able to stop it.

The point is, $24,000 was paid to someone who represnted themselves as a competent builder. And they delivered a defective product. Why are you so damned adamant that he not be held responsible. Do you do this kind of work and want to continue to get away with it as well? It is not up to you. Ultimately a judge will decide


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## scuba (Feb 26, 2008)

Personally, I hope you slam the hell out of this guy. These types are all over the country and in every nook and cranny. The more of them that we can hurt financially, the better.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Be careful of the attorney. If you sue the hack & win will there be anything to recover from him? Even if you get a judgment he can weasel around it and pay you a couple of bucks a month. Then the attorney fees, depositions, investigator fees, time in court. It may just be easier & cheaper to fix the shed & move on. Your parents will get grilled both in the depositions and court. Good luck.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> Why are you so damned adamant that he not be held responsible. Do you do this kind of work and want to continue to get away with it as well?


No...what I do is present, upon agreement, a contract complete with a set of plans, copies of my insurance and performance bond. I have the client sign the contract which states explicitly that all construction complies with the current building codes as they may apply. The client retains a copy of the documents including the plan. 
Your original post indicate you don't have any documents of this type nor do you know how to find out what the code would be. If you are going to be in charge of fixing this I suggest you buy a copy of the latest IRC for1 and 2 family dwellings. 

oh and don't call your dad a moron..it makes you look bad.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

griz said:


> Be careful of the attorney. If you sue the hack & win will there be anything to recover from him? Even if you get a judgment he can weasel around it and pay you a couple of bucks a month. Then the attorney fees, depositions, investigator fees, time in court. It may just be easier & cheaper to fix the shed & move on. Your parents will get grilled both in the depositions and court. Good luck.


 
Thank you. They do accept the fact that winning does not guarantee payment. He does own property that can be leined. Plus this is a rural area and his name will be in the paper and word will get around. The amount to correct all of the problems should end up at less than 10K. Also, they have way deeper pockets than him to fight this. They can simply outspend him and make it not worth his while to defend himself.


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## solarguy (Feb 14, 2010)

Small claims court. Can it be fixed for 5G's or under?


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

solarguy said:


> Small claims court. Can it be fixed for 5G's or under?


 

The limit in Illinois is 10k. The total amount to correct all of the defects is probably goin to fall in that area. You do not have to have an attorney, but they will be using one.


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

The burden of proof is on you/your family.

"Your honor, there is nothing defective with regard to the garage I built. The slab is of sufficient strength, the walls and roof were built properly. Building location, grading and site drainage were/are not part of my contractual scope of work. It is not my liability that the owner failed to provide proper grading and drainage for the building site."

Do you see where I am going with this? It is likely that he will win in small claims court. My advise to you is to fix the situation with the least amount of cost, which is to provide proper slope away from the garage (I would suggest 4in in 10feet). You could also replace the lower 6in of siding with Azek to prevent siding rot.

While I would not pour a slab that close to grade, It is posible that the builder thought final grading would be done. Any building should have 2 inches in 10 feet slope in all directions. If he had poured 6 inches above grade, all you would have is a 6 inch deep puddle prior to water running onto the slab.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

jhark123 said:


> The burden of proof is on you/your family.
> 
> "Your honor, there is nothing defective with regard to the garage I built. The slab is of sufficient strength, the walls and roof were built properly. Building location, grading and site drainage were/are not part of my contractual scope of work. It is not my liability that the owner failed to provide proper grading and drainage for the building site."
> 
> ...


 
How many fuc)inG times do I have to explain this! There is no where to grade to. It is on the lowest point of the property. There is no solution except to jack up the building and pour a new slab. Azek? What about 3/4 inch of water pooled on the slab all winter long. My parents are not young anymore. what if they slip? You are a ****ing idiot. Do you ******ig everything you do? Do you think I need some douchebag troubleshooting the problem from 2000 miles away when I already know there is only one way to correct it. Did I ask for you approval?

Here is the original question:

Here is my question to you guys: Does the International Building Code specify a minimum distance above grade for a building slab and if so, can you provide me with the article number?

I have not seen an actual article number that SPECIFICALLY answers the question. Some here have offered what they know.


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## Tom Struble (Mar 2, 2007)

you sound so smart ,your parents are lucky to have you around


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## Rio (Oct 13, 2009)

Doubleoh7 said:


> Could you please provide me with an article/section no for 8" to the tob of the slab.
> 
> Thanks


Per your request
*Article 2304.11.2.2 Wood supported by exterior foundation
*_Wood framing members, including wood sheathing, that rest on exterior foundation walls and are less than 8" from exposed earth shall be of naturally durable or preservative-treated wood._
That is from the 2007 CBC (California Building Code) which is based on the IBC (International Building Code).

I will say that something you are saying on this thread doesn't make sense and you'd be well advised to re-read the posts and take the advice of these seasoned professionals. If what you've stated above is correct you're going to spend a bunch of money and not solve a thing. Why don't you take some photos and post them?


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

> "Water didn't flow into the garage before the garage existed":blink:


exactly!

You (or whoever built this building) were successful in building a place for water to flow to once...now do it again. This time make the water flow someplace you want it to flow. I would suggest someplace outside.:laughing:


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## Gus Dering (Oct 14, 2008)

Well what is a guy supposed to do with all that?


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Well,

Gus was kind enough to open this thread for me. I feel obliged to respond because the OP did apologize and I feel it would benefit the OP in the future if/when his solution fails (please don't charge your parents labor on the jacking if you find you need to address the drainage) as well as anyone who might read this thread in the future looking for a solution.

One thing I must say first: I believe that the OP does not want to listen to any of our advice because our solutions do not involve the builder's scope of work and he is therefore not financially liable for the water issue. This is an unfortunate but easy trap for any of us to fall into when we feel we have been wronged.

Alright on to the solution

If this garage is built at the bottom of a bowl, then it must be serviced by a mechanical drainage system.

First, as with any other building the surface grade should be sloped at least 4in in 10' in all directions. This grade will create a continuous swale around the building. Then, at the V of the swale, you dig a continuous french drain a minimum of 2' wide by 2' deep. The drain ditch must slope at least 1/4" per foot from the high corner to the low point. A french drain consists of 6" of clean washed drain rock, then a 4" perforated pipe (sleaved anywhere it will be driven over), the perf pipe is wrapped in filter fabric to let water in but keep sediment out, then fill the remainder of the ditch with clean washed drain rock. If low volume is expected the drain can be capped with soil and grass, if there is a lot of water bring it all the way to the surface.

Ok, so it slopes a LEAST 1/4" per foot. That means you have a ditch that is 2' deep at one point and falls gradually to 2.5'-6' at the low point.

At the low point you need a containment vessel, the bigger the better. I would suggest a 1500gal single compartment septic pump tank. It already has a rubber flange for the 4" pipe to enter and a flange for the plastic man hole risers.

In the tank you place a submersible pump sized for the amount of Gallons per Minute expected and the total head (elevation in feet that the water needs to be pumped. A typical pump for this application would be a Hydromatic SP40, but it should be specifically sized by an engineer or septic designer. The tank also has a float tree and a control box to turn the pump on and off. The top float is the redundant on, the next lower is the regular on, near the bottom is an off and redundant off. This setup is why bigger is better for the tank, the bigger the tank the fewer times the pump switch will cycle on/off (the most likely component to wear out). You could also have a second circuit for a high water alarm as additional insurance.

Also, the gutters of the building should be tightlined into the holding tank (do not let the engineer forget the GPM off the roof)

The pump outputs into a 2" pvc pipe that goes through the riser and underground to where the property has good drainage or a culvert. 

I am not sure if you have already raised the garage, but I hope not. When you are having the grading done they can easily drop it another 6" to give you the proper clearance from ground to siding. If that's not possible just cut in an azek bottom board and you won't have siding rot. A proper drainage system will permanently fix the water issues and enhance the property. Raising the slab is like lipstick on a pig. You MAY have fewer issues, but you are still going to have issues.


one last thing:

YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO PERFORM THE ABOVE DESCRIBED WORK. THE PERFORMANCE AND LONGEVITY OF THE DRAINAGE SYSTEM DEPEND ON THE KNOWLEDGE AND SKILL OF THE INSTALLER. HIRE A LICENSED SEPTIC INSTALLER OR EXPERIENCED, ESTABLISHED EXCAVATION FIRM.

Your parents deserve to have a professional acting with in his own field, you can save them some money by wiring the pump for free.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

You do not understand because you do not know the property. That will not work. It puts the lotion in the basket.

Plus, mechanical systems fail. Power outages are not uncommon here. A permanant and fail safe fix is being implemented. 

The slab was poured too close to grade. Nothing will change that.

I informed the builder of what would happen before the slab was poured. He was in a hurry to get the money and run.

As of 8:00 tonight the building is off the slab and resting on blocks. The lift was perfect. I thought I would hear a lot of creaking, but it did not make a sound. I did the whole job myself. This included a lot of framing - lots of 2x10's and 2x6's. I lifted it a total 17 inches. All of the door openings maintained their dimensions. 12 inches of block will be laid. That leaves 5 inches of working room.

The blocks arrive tomorow and will be laid on Tuesday. A pro has been hired to do the block. I DO NOT mess with masonry or concrete. I plan on posting pictures in time, unless someone gets mouthy again and the thread ends up closed.

The mayor threw up on his wifes breasts.:sad:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Double o, Well so far I have to ride with you on this one. You're there and we are not. I do not care for mechanical fixes to a drainage issue. But, after you raise the building, a good solution, where will the water that was the initial problem go? You still need to deal with that. Unless your folks don't care about getting to the bldg in wet weather. Just remember we are trying to help you. Although I've never seen a sparky involved in grading problems:whistling And those of us that don't understand much electricity don't deal in electrical problems. Can you make water flow through wire? Just kidding:thumbsup:


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Doubleoh7 said:


> You do not understand because you do not know the property. That will not work. It puts the lotion in the basket.
> 
> Plus, mechanical systems fail. Power outages are not uncommon here. A permanant and fail safe fix is being implemented.
> 
> ...


 
Ok, now I'm interested in what you mean. Could you explain the part in red? I cannot envision a property where a mechanical system could not drain. The right pump could empty rain water from the grand canyon.


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## jhark123 (Aug 26, 2008)

griz said:


> Double o, Well so far I have to ride with you on this one. You're there and we are not. I do not care for mechanical fixes to a drainage issue. But, after you raise the building, a good solution, where will the water that was the initial problem go? You still need to deal with that. Unless your folks don't care about getting to the bldg in wet weather. Just remember we are trying to help you. Although I've never seen a sparky involved in grading problems:whistling And those of us that don't understand much electricity don't deal in electrical problems. Can you make water flow through wire? Just kidding:thumbsup:


 
If it's the only fix, it's the only fix. Plus, how often does a septic pump go out, 10 years? (retorical question). Also, concrete is waterproof. If water sits against the slab it will wick through.


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## Cletus (Jan 7, 2008)

007, I don't care about whatever it is you're going on about in this thread.

Except for this:



Doubleoh7 said:


> The mayor threw up on his wifes breasts.:sad:


I demand an explanation and pics.

Thank you,

Cletus


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Cletus;...I demand an explanation and pics. Thank you said:


> Yea, like double or triple what Cletus asks for:clap::whistling


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

griz said:


> Double o, Well so far I have to ride with you on this one. You're there and we are not. I do not care for mechanical fixes to a drainage issue. But, after you raise the building, a good solution, where will the water that was the initial problem go? You still need to deal with that. Unless your folks don't care about getting to the bldg in wet weather. Just remember we are trying to help you. Although I've never seen a sparky involved in grading problems:whistling And those of us that don't understand much electricity don't deal in electrical problems. Can you make water flow through wire? Just kidding:thumbsup:


The area of the property that it is on is extremely wet most of the year. It always has been and always will be. Unless, perhaps, a lake is dug in the 100 acre field directly behind it. If the slab had been poured at the minimum level according to the IBC there would not be an issue. 

If you walked the area, I'm sure you would understand. You would not need a transit.

The slab was poured too close to the ground. It is going to be high and dry.

There is a sidewalk out to it. 

After all the defects are corrected it will be a nice building. It is unfinished. Now that it is not going to filled with water every winter and some other times of the year, it could serve many useful purposes other than storage. It could be a nice home office, a mother in law house, maybe a beauty salon, a "man cave", it would be a model train place. I could see some future homeowner sitting out there in a nice, dry building watching model trains going in and out of tunnels.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

griz said:


> Yea, like double or triple what Cletus asks for:clap::whistling


 
He did.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

jhark123 said:


> Ok, now I'm interested in what you mean. Could you explain the part in red? I cannot envision a property where a mechanical system could not drain. The right pump could empty rain water from the grand canyon.


 
When you put your hand into a bunch of goo that a moment before was your best friend's face, you'll know what I'm talkin bout.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

tomstruble said:


> you sound so smart ,your parents are lucky to have you around


 
Thank You.

I help them in ways that I am able.


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## solarguy (Feb 14, 2010)

Water flows downhill. You should know how much water is flowing and how high it gets on the building. How deep the bowl is. The water may build up to slab height and the problem may repeat itself. That's easy enough to figure. Sounds like the sidewalk will have to be replaced as well.
Make cure they have good expansion around the sides of your interior slab.


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## Doubleoh7 (Dec 3, 2009)

solarguy said:


> Water flows downhill. You should know how much water is flowing and how high it gets on the building. How deep the bowl is. The water may build up to slab height and the problem may repeat itself. That's easy enough to figure. Sounds like the sidewalk will have to be replaced as well.
> Make cure they have good expansion around the sides of your interior slab.


 

The walk that the builder poured along the building was removed last year. It actually sloped toward the building and directed water under the 2 steel entry doors and the overhead door. The building slab is so low that he could not angle the slab away from the building. He poured the walk so high on the building that the vinyl siding was buried 1/4 inch in the walk. I need to get some pics posted. The job he did was absolutely inexcusable.


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