# How one electrician made my day



## Aggie67 (Aug 28, 2008)

My power went out earlier today. I flipped the main breaker off to replace a light fixture, plus I wanted to remove my cracked spa pump. So I figured I'd hit all the electrical stuff at once (sconce fixture, then pump), and hit the main breaker instead of trying to hunt. Well, when I was done I couldn't get it to reset no matter what I tried. And I have one of those Federal Pacific panels, so I kind of figured it was toast.

So I called the number of the guy that last serviced the panel. He's been long out of biz. Then I called the electrician I knew (industrial work), and his wife tells me he's down at the race. Then I called a GC I know and asked him for a good reference. No one he'd recommend, his guy just screwed him. 

So I dusted it off, and opened the phone book. I called 3 guys with ads that said "24/7 Owner Answers the Phone." One guy actually answered, and he was in front of my panel within the hour.

I knew I needed a panel, but he got it working. I asked him for a price for a replacement 200 amp panel. I have a written estimate for a 200 amp Square D panel, 40 poles, $1300 installed, and he needs 2 days lead time to order and schedule it, he'll handle the permit. 4-6 hour job. 

What impressed me the most was when I tried to pay him for coming to my house on a Saturday. "Nope, nope, just call me when you're ready for the panel."




I'm not asking for any feedback on price, because first I think it's actually kind of low, and second, no matter what, I'm happy. He could have told me $1800 and I still would have been happy. His ad said he'd answer, he did, he got there when he said he would, I have power, and I have a replacement panel on its way. That was as painless an experience as I could have asked for.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Wow, thirteen hundred is like super dirt-cheap. 

Oh, by the way, no matter what you do, don't ever shut off the main breaker to a Federal Pacific panel.

Just kidding, I'm glad things worked out for you.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Wow, thirteen hundred is like super dirt-cheap.
> 
> Oh, by the way, no matter what you do, don't ever shut off the main breaker to a Federal Pacific panel.
> 
> Just kidding, I'm glad things worked out for you.


Um, don't you think it would be safer to never turn a FP breaker _on_? :laughing:


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## J CORRIN (Sep 14, 2007)

I would do anything to get a 200 amp service change for $1300 around here. I bid them at $100, I don't get them, I bid them at $900 and get them....


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Aggie67 said:


> What impressed me the most was when I tried to pay him for coming to my house on a Saturday. "Nope, nope, just call me when you're ready for the panel.


I'm not so sure I'd find that impressive. I would have liked that too, but I would not have been especially impressed. That's a guy who does not know his worth in the marketplace. He's giving away a hundred bucks or more of his time to possibly get a later sale that is also too cheap.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Shhhhh... Wait until Aggie gets his panel in before you tell him....:whistling


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

The last one i did "no need for permit in this area" was just last week and i did it for $1100 with an inspection. But they were also friends of the family too and our economy "market place" here is different than where most are. For me it was an easy good "green" money job.


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

mdshunk said:


> I'm not so sure I'd find that impressive. I would have liked that too, but I would not have been especially impressed. That's a guy who does not know his worth in the marketplace. He's giving away a hundred bucks or more of his time to possibly get a later sale that is also too cheap.


I just did one for a GC, (they get it cheaper than HO) for 1400, it was underground fed so know riser, square d homeline with 26 poles, only 10' to the h20 bond, 110 for permits, and 220 for material. It took about 8 hrs. I was happy. Only bummer the inspector failed it for "not phasing correctly", which it was phased perfectly and "ground rod was down to low". I handled it with a very colorful phone call.


CA has what's referred to as a an "all in one inspector", they same idiot inspects everything from footings to electrical and they usually have very little field experience in the trades.


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## scourt11 (Nov 26, 2008)

mdshunk talks like he reads from a text book


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

scourt11 said:


> mdshunk talks like he reads from a text book


that's because it is in a book...it's called contracting 101...and he, like me, probably knows it chapter and verse...if more guys did, it wouldn't seem so foreign...


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

mahlere said:


> that's because it is in a book...it's called contracting 101...and he, like me, probably knows it chapter and verse...if more guys did, it wouldn't seem so foreign...


That's why I read his posts, I am basically a"business as a second language" student right now.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

480sparky said:


> Um, don't you think it would be safer to never turn a FP breaker _on_? :laughing:



Point taken.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

scourt11 said:


> mdshunk talks like he reads from a text book


mdshunk IS a text book.A walking talking text book.Don't you forget it!


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

If our electrical contractor had to quote a 200A upgrade it's usually around $5000.

(However, he prefers to do everything T&M anyway, so it's better to let him :thumbup

However, $1300 is a steal, if you ask me.


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## mrmike (Dec 9, 2008)

Aggie67 said:


> I knew I needed a panel, but he got it working. I asked him for a price for a replacement 200 amp panel. I have a written estimate for a 200 amp Square D panel, 40 poles, $1300 installed, and he needs 2 days lead time to order and schedule it, he'll handle the permit. 4-6 hour job.
> 
> Sounds great for a new service, but what are the specifics? Do you already have a 200 amp service? Is this just for switching the panel as you have "replacement panel" & 4 to 6 hours would be about right for just switching everything over to the new one?. In that case the price would be really high...........


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## Eddy Current (Nov 19, 2006)

> Sounds great for a new service, but what are the specifics? Do you already have a 200 amp service? Is this just for switching the panel as you have "replacement panel" & 4 to 6 hours would be about right for just switching everything over to the new one?. In that case the price would be really high...........


That's what I was thinking. There's a problem with the main breaker so he probably only needs a new panel, not a new service. 



> he'll handle the permit.


Around here when an electrician says that it's usually code for "no permit or inspection":whistling


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## Aggie67 (Aug 28, 2008)

Here's what's on the quote:

200 Amp Sq D Repl Panel & Encl
40 poles
Refit feeds
Addt'l ground rod
Remove old panel to scrap
$1300 L&M
4-6 hr down

He talked about the main feeds having very little slack, although he didn't use the term slack. My service comes in under the lawn, right below the panel on the outside, and the original electrician muscled the feeds into the enclosure in a bit of whacky pattern (one leg is tucked a little behind the main board, kind of between the back of the panel enclosure and the panel board, and it looks like the "bend" in the cable is being held in place by the nut that attaches the panel board to the enclosure, and it's digging into the cable's insulation). He wants to correct that condition. He also said he'd need to keep the pool & spa sub panel feed in basically the same spot, because it exits the main panel enclosure out the back of the enclosure. I only have one ground rod, and he said in our area we now need two (he's got me there, I just don't have that knowledge). He and I also both know the same inspectors and we talked about it, so I doubt he'd pull a fast one on the permit.

But with all that said, I'm still happy, and with the response and service I got, I would have been happy paying $1800.


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## OCRS (Apr 29, 2008)

Aggie67 said:


> Here's what's on the quote:
> 
> 200 Amp Sq D Repl Panel & Encl
> 40 poles
> ...


If that's how you feel and the re & re goes well, shoot him $100 for the intial work.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I'm working on a flip remodel and need a new service, so far here I have read essential don't use Federal Pioneer panels, in the past I have read don't use Zinsco (sp?). I think Zinsco is discontinued, I've seen the breakers available for $ 50.00 each, so that tells me it's discontinued...And they are/were a fire hazard panel.

So what is available that's a viable option?


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## Aggie67 (Aug 28, 2008)

OCRS said:


> If that's how you feel and the re & re goes well, shoot him $100 for the intial work.


I thought of a couple ideas also. If all goes well, I'm building 3 pump skids that are going to Philadelphia Children's Hospital in April, and I have to wire up starters, variable speed drives, two control panels, and a bunch of instrumentation. If he has the experience, I was going to throw the shop work his way.


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## OCRS (Apr 29, 2008)

Aggie67 said:


> I thought of a couple ideas also. If all goes well, I'm building 3 pump skids that are going to Philadelphia Children's Hospital in April, and I have to wire up starters, variable speed drives, two control panels, and a bunch of instrumentation. If he has the experience, I was going to throw the shop work his way.


 That would be good. (if that's his thing) I'm sure his reasoning for not charging for the inital work was repeat biz.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

OCRS said:


> That would be good. (if that's his thing) I'm sure his reasoning for not charging for the inital work was repeat biz.


We're all the time making fun of customers and GC's who try to bait you with the promise of future business. "Give me a good price on this one and I'll...". Right here we have an example of an electrical contractor who's falling into that same trap, but he set the trap himself. He's secretly hoping for more work without even so much as vocalizing it, which may or may not come, and he's giving you a good price on the first call (free). This is dumber than dumb. This is a perfect example of why not every qualified tradesman will make it in business. Maybe he's calling that first service call "advertising expense", but I call it idiocy.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

Maybe Aggie had already told him he was hired for the panel replacement and he just added the service call into the quote for the panel replace (which is already cheap)

Also maybe they had been chatting and he had mentioned what he does and that he may be looking for an electrician for these other jobs, and this guy with his 5 starving children at home saw a chance to lose out on a couple hundred bucks but make thousands in the near future?

I don't know, it's just hard to trash a guy when we don't know all the specifics.


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## dlcj (Oct 1, 2007)

Eddy Current said:


> That's what I was thinking. There's a problem with the main breaker so he probably only needs a new panel, not a new service.


Sounds high to me too. New 200 amp 40 circuit panel with 200 main installed, bout $200. Fill it with breakers (assuming you need them all) bout $7.50 per pole. $300. Second ground rod and wire $25. Total $525 material. 1300-525= $775. 775/6hr= $130hr. Sounds pretty dam good for the sparky to me. I think he included a couple hundred for the the first service call too.
Not bad mouthing him, if your happy with that price than thats all that counts. But i definitely dont think thats a steal. Then again i dont live in N.Y. or Calif. Thank god:laughing:


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Winchester said:


> I don't know, it's just hard to trash a guy when we don't know all the specifics.


I'm not trashing any guy, but I am trashing idiotic business principles. No matter who's mouth it's coming out of, this is a stupid marketing tactic. Will it work sometimes? Without a doubt. Is it the most effective way to market? No freaking way.


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## Aggie67 (Aug 28, 2008)

The marketing tactic he used - if he did come in low - is called a loss leader. It does work and it's used a lot. And again, as the customer, I'm satisfied and happy with the experience. I have his card, and anything I have to get done at the house or shop, I'm calling him for now on.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Aggie67 said:


> The marketing tactic he used - if he did come in low - is called a loss leader.


No, it's not. He gave you a service call for free when you had every intention to pay. It would only be a loss leader if he was giving away a free service call and you knew about it ahead of time. 

I suspect very much that his cheap price on the panel change is his every day price, and is not a loss leader at all. Some guys simply don't have a real idea of the cost of doing business, and this is a perfect example of that.


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## Aggie67 (Aug 28, 2008)

mdshunk said:


> I suspect very much that his cheap price on the panel change is his every day price, and is not a loss leader at all. Some guys simply don't have a real idea of the cost of doing business, and this is a perfect example of that.


That could be what's going on, too. That's got to be considered. I'm assuming he knows how to estimate, and he might not. He seemed legit. Got a good vibe, but I could have it all wrong. And if I look at what I wrote: "for what I got, I would have been just as happy paying a little more," it looks like that's it. It looks like he's underpricing himself and doesn't know what he's worth.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

Aggie67 said:


> That could be what's going on, too. That's got to be considered. I'm assuming he knows how to estimate, and he might not. He seemed legit. Got a good vibe, but I could have it all wrong. And if I look at what I wrote: "for what I got, I would have been just as happy paying a little more," it looks like that's it. It looks like he's underpricing himself and doesn't know what he's worth.


I predict that you're going to get a nice job and good service from this EC. He's just leaving money on the table, and his business methods are screwy. That's all. Many of the best tradesmen are the worst businessmen. Seems to often be skills that are on the opposite ends of a teeter-totter. Very seldom do you get both in the same guy. I've noticed that the most profitable electrical contractors I know couldn't personally wire their way out of a wet paper bag. They hire people for that.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

dlcj said:


> Sounds high to me too. New 200 amp 40 circuit panel with 200 main installed, bout $200. Fill it with breakers (assuming you need them all) bout $7.50 per pole. $300. Second ground rod and wire $25. Total $525 material. 1300-525= $775. 775/6hr= $130hr. Sounds pretty dam good for the sparky to me. I think he included a couple hundred for the the first service call too.
> Not bad mouthing him, if your happy with that price than thats all that counts. But i definitely dont think thats a steal. Then again i dont live in N.Y. or Calif. Thank god:laughing:



What about the mark-up on material, or the time going to and from the supply house? What about including some profit so the business can grow? And that's not even counting the list of what-ifs like new brakes on the van or the price of the permit and the time going back and forth to city hall.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

mdshunk said:


> No, it's not. He gave you a service call for free when you had every intention to pay. It would only be a loss leader if he was giving away a free service call and you knew about it ahead of time.
> 
> I suspect very much that his cheap price on the panel change is his every day price, and is not a loss leader at all. Some guys simply don't have a real idea of the cost of doing business, and this is a perfect example of that.


 I would agree with this. The job i described i was already at the home when the homeowner asked about the panel replacement. They already had a full 200 amp panel and the breakers were obsolete around here so they wanted an upgraded, easier to find panel/breakers. I replaced the SEU "scrap peice from another job" because it was to short for the new larger panel. Other than that it was a simple swap. For me i figure about $800 profit for one days work. I would love to do one of these a week on top of other work. As MD says, it all has to do with your overhead and knowing the cost of business.


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## Eddy Current (Nov 19, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> I've noticed that the most profitable electrical contractors I know couldn't personally wire their way out of a wet paper bag. They hire people for that.


So true! 


Words of wisdom told to me by a very profitable electrician who can not wire his way out of a paper bag:

Any electrician can do the job, but it takes a smart electrician to blow something up and still get paid, keep the customer happy, and get return buisiness.:notworthy


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## kgphoto (May 9, 2006)

OCRS said:


> If that's how you feel and the re & re goes well, shoot him $100 for the intial work.


Nah! Buy him and the missus a dinner at the best restaurant in town. And still give him all the work he can handle.


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## slowforthecones (Aug 24, 2008)

Bkessler said:


> I just did one for a GC, (they get it cheaper than HO) for 1400, it was underground fed so know riser, square d homeline with 26 poles, only 10' to the h20 bond, 110 for permits, and 220 for material. It took about 8 hrs. I was happy. Only bummer the inspector failed it for "not phasing correctly", which it was phased perfectly and "ground rod was down to low". I handled it with a very colorful phone call.
> 
> 
> CA has what's referred to as a an "all in one inspector", they same idiot inspects everything from footings to electrical and they usually have very little field experience in the trades.


 depends what locality your in. I'm in norcal and we don't have all in one inspectors unless we pay extra and it's a weekend thing or residential 2 unit or less.


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## slowforthecones (Aug 24, 2008)

I think $1300 is NOT a steal. i'm in california and i usually don't do residential unless it's residential on agricultural or friends/family home, and I usually charge $800 out the door CASH. That square d panel he mentions is $175, breakes are $7 a piece. sounds like he is making $100+ an hour on this quick panel changeout. even if he has to start from the service connection (street).


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

The last 200 amp service I did the materials cost about $700. 

2"PVC:

1 - Service head
30' conduit
2 - 2" male adaptors
1 - offset male adaptor
1 - LB
2 - Sweeps
6 - straps
1 - small can of glue

200 amp meter pan 
2 - copper ground rods
2 - copper ground rod clamps
6 - 1/4" straps
plastic anchor kit
20' #6 copper
4 - water ground clamps
50' #4 copper 
10' pressure treated 2x4
1 - 2' x 4' 3/4" plywood
1 - small can of black paint
1 - cheap paintbrush
4 - 2.5" lag screws
4 - 2" shields
2 - 2" locknuts
2 - 2" plastic bushings
1 - 40 ckt Square D 'QO' panel
12 - 15 amp SP breakers
12 - 20 amp SP breakers
1 of each: DP 30, 40, 50 amp breakers
125' 2/0 copper
$110 permit
3 - 3/0 copper split-bolt connectors
1/2" Romex connectors
1/2" BX connectors
3/4" Romex connectors
white tape
black tape
_______________________

Well over $800.00 alone in materials. And this isn't even taking into consideration the time to get the permit, materials, and meeting with the inspector some time the following week for the inspection. If the bill was $1300.00, the total profit for this job would be about $250.00 for nearly 2 days of work. I'm not ok with that. I could do better working for an EC and make that in one day, nevermind working for two using my own tools and equipment, not to mention headache if something goes wrong. 

$1300.00 - you've got to be kidding me.


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

slowforthecones said:


> I think $1300 is NOT a steal. i'm in california and i usually don't do residential unless it's residential on agricultural or friends/family home, and I usually charge $800 out the door CASH. That square d panel he mentions is $175, breakes are $7 a piece. sounds like he is making $100+ an hour on this quick panel changeout. even if he has to start from the service connection (street).


Why CASH?


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

slowforthecones said:


> I think $1300 is NOT a steal. i'm in california and i usually don't do residential unless it's residential on agricultural or friends/family home, and I usually charge $800 out the door CASH. That square d panel he mentions is $175, breakes are $7 a piece. sounds like he is making $100+ an hour on this quick panel changeout. even if he has to start from the service connection (street).


 I see you've got the license, but you're not really a contractor... are you??


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## slowforthecones (Aug 24, 2008)

mdshunk said:


> I see you've got the license, but you're not really a contractor... are you??


 Yup I'm a contractor, electrical and mechanical. And I said CASH price for friends/family.


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## slowforthecones (Aug 24, 2008)

Tiger said:


> Why CASH?


 So the gf doesn't know I made some cash for my new 4x4 or scuba gear.


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## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

slowforthecones said:


> So the gf doesn't know I made some cash for my new 4x4 or scuba gear.


Successful relations are built on honesty:laughing:


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## Eric K (Nov 24, 2005)

Im in the pittsburgh area and I know many of the more "advertised" electrical companies charge $1100 to $1500 for a 200 amp service upgrade.


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## dkillianjr (Aug 28, 2006)

You beat me to it Eric:laughing:, I was gonna say just about the same thing.

Dave


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

$1100 services:










$2500 services:










Any questions?


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## bill02 (Sep 22, 2006)

my electricians will not even touch a FP panel to repair it due to liability reasons. Maybe this electrician was avoiding a lawsuit by not charging for it


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## Aggie67 (Aug 28, 2008)

bill02 said:


> my electricians will not even touch a FP panel to repair it due to liability reasons. Maybe this electrician was avoiding a lawsuit by not charging for it


That is a possibility I didn't think of.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

I'm not sure I see what the big stink is about. So this guy doesn't charge what some others here would charge. So? We have no idea what this guy has as overhead. If you have a low overhead and can charge low enough to beat the other guy and still turn a healthy profit, go for it.


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## slowforthecones (Aug 24, 2008)

rbsremodeling said:


> Successful relations are built on honesty:laughing:


 Yeah.. honesty = you don't have any money left or she knows your finances too well that when its a rainy day you can't get money out.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Speaking of FPE.... look at this work of art:










The whole time I was thinking of this thread as I detached these (2) #12 wires that were feeding a small disconnect box that was protecting (2) #14 wires under a 50 amp circuit breaker.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> The last 200 amp service I did the materials cost about $700.


I just priced out the job as you detailed it Mags....
About $3200 including the permits, filing and inspection costs.

A panel swap out under "average conditions" using QO....running at $1800 w/permits, filing and inspection costs.


Looks like Aggie may have gotten the fabled "good deal"....maybe we can see some before/after shots of the swap out?


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

I would love to see before/ after pictures. 

How much would you charge (approx) to upgrade this mess?


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## wireless (Nov 2, 2006)

Magnettica said:


> I would love to see before/ after pictures.
> 
> How much would you charge (approx) to upgrade this mess?


I have been staring at the picture, I can't seem to find the mess!


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> I would love to see before/ after pictures.
> 
> How much would you charge (approx) to upgrade this mess?


T&M :laughing:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> How much would you charge (approx) to upgrade this mess?


If you have to ask ~ you can't afford it :laughing:


What is there now?
12 meters at 60A?
2 meters at ??A ?
Service size?


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Celtic said:


> If you have to ask ~ you can't afford it :laughing:
> 
> 
> What is there now?
> ...


13 at 60 amps and 1 at 70 amps to a remote building under single management. The main disconnect is 200 amps at 120/ 208 volts. Not that it matters, but there is also a 200 main disconnect (not pictured) for some roof-mounted T-Mobile cell phone equipment and that has it's own drop and own meter with three separate unused meters coming out of a wireway for future use.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> 13 at 60 amps and 1 at 70 amps to a remote building under single management. The main disconnect is 200 amps at 120/ 208 volts. Not that it matters, but there is also a 200 main disconnect (not pictured) for some roof-mounted T-Mobile cell phone equipment and that has it's own drop and own meter with three separate unused meters coming out of a wireway for future use.


But what is MAIN service rating....that's gonna be changed too.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

200 amps.


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