# PVC V. Metallic



## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

*Skip the blue text (it's the local code for reference).*

Sec. 2291. National Electrical Code adopted.
Pursuant to authority granted by 65 ILCS 5/132, the Village hereby adopts by reference the National Electrical Code, 2002 Edition, and all regulations thereto, as published by the National Fire Protection Association, as the electrical code, excepting those provisions which are modified or deleted as provided in this article. (Code 1979, § 26.02? Ord. No. 0412C3319,§ 1, 1262004)
State law references: Municipal Adoption of Codes and Records Act, 50 ILCS 220/0.01 et seq.

Sec. 2292. Conflicting regulations.
If any provision of the National Electrical Code is in conflict with any provision of any code, ordinance or rules and regulations of the Village, the code, ordinance or rules and regulations shall prevail and the conflicting provision of the National Electrical Code shall have no force or effect. (Code 1979, § 26.03)

Sec. 2293. Amendments to National Electrical Code.
The National Electrical Code adopted by reference in this article shall be modified as follows:
(1) 210.8(A), Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Protection or Personnel, Dwelling Units. Add the following language to the bottom of paragraph: "This shall apply to all occupancies."
(2) Add230.1 (A) New commercial, industrial and residential structures requiring electrical service shall be served underground in an approved manner, and shall be suitably protected against physical damage, unless a determination is made by the Village Manager or designee that the service cannot be provided underground.
(3) 230.43 Wiring Methods for 600 Volts, Nominal, or Less shall be modified as follows:
Wiring Methods for 600 Volts, Nominal, or Less. Service entrance conductors shall be installed in accordance with the applicable requirements of this Code covering the type of wiring method used and limited to the following methods: (1) rigid metal conduit? (2) intermediate metal conduit? (3) busways. 
(4) 310.14 Aluminum Conductor Material. Modify by deleting "Solid aluminum conductors 8, 10 and 12 AWG shall be made" and replace with "Aluminum conductors shall be 6 AWG or greater and shall be made".
(5) ARTICLE 334 Nonmetallic Sheathed
Cable: Types NM, NMC, and NMS. Delete in its entirety.
(6) ARTICLE 352, Rigid Nonmetallic Conduit: Type RNC. Delete in its entirety.
(7) ARTICLE 362, Electrical Nonmetallic Tubing: Type ENT. Delete in its entirety.
(8) The following shall be added to the adopted electrical code as an addendum:
a. Copper wire shall be used for all ground conductors and water meter jumpers.
b. New construction: Electrical metallic tubing, rigid conduit or intermediate metal conduit
shall be used to enclose all branch circuit wiring. Flexible metallic conduit may be used, with its length limited to 6 feet.
c. Provide a minimum one half inch conduit located one foot from the water meter location to the nearest exterior point on the front elevation (street side) of the building.

This is a topic for discussion, the above in blue is a local AHJ's municipal code adopting the 2002 edition of the NEC with the above amendments. I know someone posted before that the NEC was a National code, it's not, that's just the title, it doesn't become the code until it's adopted by the AHJ. Many area out here have their own code or have adopted various years of the NEC, most with local amendments, specifying metallic conduit and prohibiting non metallic (PVC) and romex for residential an all other. The metallic conduit is all of Chicago, most, if not all of Cook county and some of the other areas. I saw somewhere (maybe a post here) that the reason for metallic was because of fires, I've also heard that it was a job security union thing. Regardless of why, I like conduit especially for retrofits, easy to pull new wire (replacing cloth or aluminum), additional wire (ceiling fans etc.) and no problems with rodents chewing through it. Generally there is no requirement for a ground conductor the metallic conduit is it (there are some exceptions). I have seen many times where conduit was pulled apart, effectively eliminating the ground, someone posted in this forum along the lines of " who hasn't forgotten to tighten a set screw" or a compression fitting for that matter. I prefer PVC for outdoor outlets, lights, etc., I just don't think it's a good idea to have a piece of steel that could potentially carry current exposed to the elements, people and pets, I know adding an additional ground conductor would reduce the hazard but I still prefer the PVC and it's also cheaper and very easy to work with. Quick example; I got zapped grabbing an AC unit housing because a guy working on it had hooked up a make shift outlet, 1 side to a 220 lug and the other side to ground, the conduit (220 Volt, no neutral AC unit). I have heard arguments against PVC because it create toxic fumes in a fire, but since it's allowed for plumbing that argument doesn't hold water nor would I want to use it inside (too big). There's also the argument that it doesn't protect against damage as well as metallic, but I think schedule 80 is plenty tough. In the town with the above ordinances I worked on a project where the new service was brought in under ground using PVC as it was spec'd by the town and the cable companies use PVC all over the town. To get PVC out this way I have to go to either Kane or Mc Henry counties, but I can find romex (not allowed either) at any home center. Anyhow, out here we have inspections on rental properties about every 18 months and I got dinged on a PVC line for some outdoor flood lights.:furious: It was a new guy, I know the all the inspectors so they filed it in the oval file cabinet for me,:thumbup: but it got me to thinking. What do you guys think about PVC conduit versus metallic and how about no ground conductor when using metallic conduit.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

mickeyco said:


> Sec. 2291. National Electrical Code adopted.
> Pursuant to authority granted by 65 ILCS 5/132, the Village hereby adopts by reference the National Electrical Code, 2002 Edition, and all regulations thereto, as published by the National Fire Protection Association, as the electrical code, excepting those provisions which are modified or deleted as provided in this article. (Code 1979, § 26.02? Ord. No. 0412C3319,§ 1, 1262004)
> State law references: Municipal Adoption of Codes and Records Act, 50 ILCS 220/0.01 et seq.
> 
> ...


Hey Mickey, how about a specific question? Who wants to read all of that..........?


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Oh I think I see your question; (in the last sentence of your 10 page yet 1 paragraph question)

PVC exposed at all is ridiculous.

And EGC's should be in every pipe.

Does that sum it up?


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Sparky Joe said:


> PVC exposed at all is ridiculous.


I kind of this this statement is a bit ridiculous.
Why would you say this, just because you don't use it yourself? Sch80 is fine where subject to damage. Sch40 is fine everywhere else. 
I use PVC ALL the time. The key is the same as most other wiring methods and practices. DO IT RIGHT the first time so you don't have to worry about it later.

I do agree that a EGC should always be run, regardless of conduit type.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> I kind of this this statement is a bit ridiculous.
> Why would you say this, just because you don't use it yourself? Sch80 is fine where subject to damage. Sch40 is fine everywhere else.
> I use PVC ALL the time. The key is the same as most other wiring methods and practices. DO IT RIGHT the first time so you don't have to worry about it later.
> 
> I do agree that a EGC should always be run, regardless of conduit type.


What about when the sun beats down on your PVC run; it changes color, sags everywhere except where a strap is.......

You put your name on that?


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

It depends on the installation. 
Exposed, and exposed to sunlight are two very different things.

Very long horizontal runs are compensated for, if used at all. 

My point was the blanket statement you made about PVC being exposed was unreasonable.


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

this village sounds like it has a bunch of crystal-pyramid hugging liberals running it.
Why don't they just oulaw electricity, to eliminate the risk of electromagnetic radiation, too?


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

I used to work in charlette amalia in ST Thomas USVI , there no such thing as metal conduit there. One of the resorts I worked was under the storm surge of hurricane marlynn in 1995 and everthing metal was eaten away by the salt water!


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

You can get PVC in Dupage county. You can use PVC underground as long as it is 24" deep or encased in concrete (I think it is like this in most cities around here) Steel is better because it won't get chewed by rodents, weed whackers, etc.

Even parts of Kane county (where I live) have abolished romex/greenfield installs. We do 99% of our work in other areas anyway, mostly Dupage county, all EMT. It seems whenver we have done a romex job we have gotten screwed. EMT is more fun anyway.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

fridaymean said:


> You can get PVC in Dupage county. You can use PVC underground as long as it is 24" deep or encased in concrete (I think it is like this in most cities around here) Steel is better because it won't get chewed by rodents, weed whackers, etc.
> 
> Even parts of Kane county (where I live) have abolished romex/greenfield installs. We do 99% of our work in other areas anyway, mostly Dupage county, all EMT. It seems whenver we have done a romex job we have gotten screwed. EMT is more fun anyway.


Where in DuPage, I recently went out to Kane to get a few sticks for some deck lights, I'm on the border of Cook and haven't found it anywhere out here.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Villa Park Electrical Supply on North Ave. It is a couple miles west of Rt 83. Also, Check the Depot.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

I've even been told not run PVC inside because it burns toxic.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

fridaymean said:


> Villa Park Electrical Supply on North Ave. It is a couple miles west of Rt 83. Also, Check the Depot.


Sh*t, I'd hate to drive a mile or two rather than going out to Kane, none of the big boxes (Menards, Home Depot, Lowes) have it but the have romex?, go figure. Thanks


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Sparky Joe said:


> I've even been told not run PVC inside because it burns toxic.


Yeah I put that in the original post, but PVC is used and accepted by code out here for DWV, so that can't be the reason nor would I want to use it inside (too thick) I prefer emt. The rules and codes out here vary so much it's a pain, a state-wide code would be nice.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

I'd like to know what Chicagoland thinks with regard to electrical codes.
Is all this crazy "No NM cable" crap still because of that fire 150 years ago?
Does Chicago think it will burn faster than the rest of the country?
Does Chicago think it has more rodents than other cities? Rodents that can chew through AC cable?
Is it a union thing?
WHAT?

I TRULY don't get it!


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Of course it's a union thing, they have huge market share there and they dictate how things are to be done.

Think these old union brothers want to race romex around like some monkey?


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> I'd like to know what Chicagoland thinks with regard to electrical codes.


We are still trying to figure out how "they" want it.



Speedy Petey said:


> Is all this crazy "No NM cable" crap still because of that fire 150 years ago?


Not all of Chicagoland is this way, and no.



Speedy Petey said:


> Does Chicago think it will burn faster than the rest of the country?


No, not Malibu anyway. :laughing: 



Speedy Petey said:


> Does Chicago think it has more rodents than other cities? Rodents that can chew through AC cable?


No



Speedy Petey said:


> Is it a union thing?


I would put my bet on that one!


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

Oh, PVC is used all the time on commercial work. Where it will be burried under or in a slab.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Sparky Joe said:


> Of course it's a union thing, they have huge market share there and *they dictate how things are to be done*.


_DING,DING,DING,DING,DING,DING!_
We have a winner!



One of my MAIN problems with the union. They try and dictate how things are done. Because _only_ theyyyyyyy know best. 
No sir. I don't buy it. Not any more at least.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> I'd like to know what Chicagoland thinks with regard to electrical codes.
> Is all this crazy "No NM cable" crap still because of that fire 150 years ago?
> Does Chicago think it will burn faster than the rest of the country?
> Does Chicago think it has more rodents than other cities? Rodents that can chew through AC cable?
> ...


I prefer emt to romex, although I have never used it (romex) for residential, for the reasons I stated above:

"I like conduit especially for retrofits, easy to pull new wire (replacing cloth or aluminum), additional wire (ceiling fans etc.) and no problems with rodents chewing through it."

I also thought it was good because it would prevent a lot of diy'ers from messing around with electric (need to buy a bender and know how to bend ), but all the big box store sell romex so it doesn't really matter.


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