# Go union or not?



## Johann (Nov 7, 2008)

I was told to join the ceramic tile layers union to get bigger jobs. How hard is this, and what would it require? Is it worth it?

Thank you.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

Personally, I would stay AS FAR AWAY from unions as I could.


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## firemike (Dec 11, 2005)

How many union setters are sitting on the bench right now and how busy are the union companies in your area???? Are there that many "bigger" jobs there to keep all of you going? 

A very good friend of mine, an electrical contractor, dropped out of the union this summer. He said that in these economic times that not having his "hands tied" by the union allows him more flexability and greater potential in his business.


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## Ceramictec (Feb 14, 2008)

I agree with the others.

I had a Union shop for a while and it was all good until they over crowded them and work slowed down, went back to non union and it's been good.

being a worker I would like to be a union guy for a big shop. 
as an employer I would be non union for less b.s.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

In Chicago, I'm surprised they're giving you a choice. I would advise against the union.




.


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

I'm with the "screw the union" crowd. matter of fact, 2 weeks ago, I told the Boston BAC delegate just that, too. The job I'm on, although an open shop job, the brickie crew is a union shop, and the delegate came up to sign up a couple of the brickies, and thought while he was there, he'd come in to talk to me. Silly boy.  He seemed like a nice enough guy, but I've been screwed so bad by the union that it's not funny, and I didn't even get the benefit of a reach around!


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## Ceramictec (Feb 14, 2008)

gotta love em....lol


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## Snow Man (Aug 18, 2008)

Bigger jobs means bigger paychecks , headaches .

You'll also need a very good babysitter who likes to coddle and coach.:laughing:

Come in at 7 , maybe 7:22 . Break time is at 8:44 until 9:19 . By the time the joking and laughter has subsided , it's 10:09.

11:44 comes fast ya know . Return at 12:33 SHARP. Horseplay , farts and more jokes ...it's 1:11. 

Break time #3 is at 1:55. But it's really clean up time . On the road at 2:15. 

Are you catching any of this? 

Dont say anything to them , they are liable to file a crybaby grevience on your sorry ass.

Go for it!:clap:


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

Sure, then you get to go hot tubbing with this guy-----


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## Ceramictec (Feb 14, 2008)

silvertree said:


> Sure, then you get to go hot tubbing with this guy-----


and clean the hair out of the skimmer.


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

with my experience with my local, what they offer sounds good, better wage, cover the cost of any courses you want to take, benefits, etc.

they dont guarentee work, your not allowed to approach union companies for work if your a new member and dont have union work for the first 6 months. you have to have all the safety courses before being allowed on a union job, the'yll pay for the course but they dont tell you when the courses are until the the day before they want you to go, what if you are working kinda hard to get out work for something like that and risk getting fired. Must wear united brother hood of carpenters T-shirts at all times not at work


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

> Must wear united brother hood of carpenters T-shirts at all times not at work


That'll be the day when I let ANY organization (outside of the navy! ) tell me what I can and can't wear outside of work!

KMA and have a nice day!!


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## Snow Man (Aug 18, 2008)

woodworkbykirk said:


> with my experience with my local, what they offer sounds good, better wage, cover the cost of any courses you want to take, benefits, etc.
> 
> they dont guarentee work, your not allowed to approach union companies for work if your a new member and dont have union work for the first 6 months. you have to have all the safety courses before being allowed on a union job, the'yll pay for the course but they dont tell you when the courses are until the the day before they want you to go, what if you are working kinda hard to get out work for something like that and risk getting fired. Must wear united brother hood of carpenters T-shirts at all times not at work


 
Not in Phila. locals my good friend . I can get you in the carpenters / painters , AS A MECHANIC, with mechanics wages./ local with a phone call and your $2000 and you will have to bluff that you dont know your ass from a wine bottle opening. And .. there are over 10,000 termites outta work right now.

SOCIALISM...spread the wealth:thumbsup:

Union all the way baby. :shutup:


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## Ivinni (Jan 11, 2008)

Have you taken a look at the auto moive industry lately? They all learn from one another:bangin:


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

Ivinni said:


> Have you taken a look at the auto moive industry lately? They all learn from one another:bangin:


auto movie? or auto motive:jester:


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## Ivinni (Jan 11, 2008)

I shud spell ckeck my pots the nite after a ruff wun:whistling.

Sounded Franche though, didn't it?


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Ok. You guys have done a good job complaining about the union but nobody, except the canadian have given anything specific as to why (and he doesn't count because he is in Canada)

If you want to dissuade this guy, throw some specific problems out there.

The closest was ceramictec but I can counter a good portion of his claims simply by stating that a slug will always be out of work unless business is really hot. The best guys will always be working as long as there is any work and everybody else finds their own level.

If you're going to tear the union apart, don;t just say you would stay away. Tell the guy why.

and snow man, come on over to my job and I can show you how 100 carpenters on a job do not do that.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

As tacky as the entire contracting business has become in the last twenty-five years a Union association would be the best thing in the world for most contractors. You would be able to earn the wages you say you are worth and all the BS would be out the window. If you can play by some rules then you would benefit in many ways.

I would expect to see union organizations on the rise again very soon. It would probably be a good thing for a lot of tradesmen, especially those in the flooring trades that work for shops or retailers.:shutup:

I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from belonging to a union.:no:


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## Ceramictec (Feb 14, 2008)

nap said:


> The closest was ceramictec but I can counter a good portion of his claims simply by stating that a slug will always be out of work unless business is really hot. The best guys will always be working as long as there is any work and everybody else finds their own level.


good point Nap,

and your right.
most of the "non shop" guys would rather wait in the unemployment line and wait for a big shop to pick them up for a big job.

most smaller shops get the floaters that hop back and forth from shop to shop not happy. you can see where that leads.

I did get the chance to have a few of the good guys work for me and yes, they were great workers and highly skilled. I just couldn't keep them working since I was a small restaurant tile contractor and jobs are weeks apart back then.

being a bigger shop you can keep the good guys working steady and hire the grunts and let them go when your done, not a bad thing.

it's when your starting out or a small guy hiring out of the hall is when you get it. 

I did have my 2 shop guys (1 Mech. & 1 Helper) and kept them working.



> I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from belonging to a union.


nope, when work is good there is nothing like being a union employee and taking it easy.


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

> You would be able to earn the wages you say you are worth and all the BS would be out the window.


That's exactly one of the problems. It's NOT like that in the union. Two mechanics on the same job-- one's busting his ass, the other just strokin time. Both have to get paid the same amount of money, and in fact, more times than not, it's the guy just strokin time that'll start the problem because the other guy's "pushing the job". 

Let me tell you all a little story about union work. back when I was still an apprentice working for my father, his was a union shop. We were doing all the tile at Pitney Bowes Corporate headquarters in Stamford, Ct.. Now, being that two locals overlapped there (Norwalk, Ct. and NYC), we had to have mechanics and helpers from both locals. No big deal. One morning, I had to deliver materials to the jobsite and got there just about at coffee break. The mechanic and helper from NYC were sitting there arguing because the mechanic had wiped mastic off his tile, thereby taking food out of the mouth of his helper's kids. When the mechanic went to answer him, the helper pulled a friggin knife on him!! This is bullsh!t at its most extreme, and by no means, an isolated incident.

Why am I so pissed off at the union? They screwed me out of vestment because during the last bad recession (1990), when you couldn't BUY a union job in Connecticut, it took me 24 months instead of 18 to make up the last 6 months to get my 10 years in. I lost well into 5 figures worth of pension benefits because of a piece of crap for a business agent, not to mention the SOB running the health and welfare fund. Since then, I wouldn't piss on a delegate's teeth if they were on fire.

Is that succinct enough for you?


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Bill_Vincent said:


> Is that succinct enough for you?


yes and thanks. 

I have had the experience of small town union groups. I do hear of some of these stories occasionally but most, if not all, are in the big cities. I am very aggrieved to hear of such stories.
I will tell you this; I am on a job with just about 600 other guys. There is no time to stand around. You are on break the allotted time. You are on lunch the alloted time. Is there some guys that cheat? Sure but there is the same thing with the non-union shops as well. Lazy is not owned by the union. He works both sides of the fence.

oh, and to snow man:

we have one break in the morning (15 minutes). We are given time to get to the break room becuase there is no food alllowed on the upper floors (7 of them) so it is only fair we are provided "travel time".

We have a 1/2 hour lunch (with the allotted travel time). There is no hanging around after lunch becuase we do stretching exercises ( all 600 of us including management) and then everybody leaves the lunchroom. Since this room is not being used for anything else, hanging around the lunchroom is obviously wasting time and not accepted.

there is no afternoon break.

we do clean-up at 3:15 because the law says you do not work time you are not paid and we are not getting paid after 3:30. A lot of the folks that do not need all that time continue to work until they have to stop to clean up to leave on time.

if you leave the job site early, the construction management company bitches to high heaven because they are getting screwed somehow although it does not cost them anything (money wise).

One thing a union does not do:

they do not prevent a person from being cut loose. They may argue for a ROF (reduction of force) rather than a firing but they cannot prevent the layoff. I know of no trades union that uses seniority for layoffs so the compnay can lay off whomever they choose.

I really don;t understand all you folks that say the union guys are slugs and do not perform. Do you understand that my company bids against non-union shops? We have to be competitve to be able to get the job. If we injure our employers by screwing off, that is going to cut our own throats. No profit=no company=no work. Can anybody explain to me how we can be so non-productive yet our employers stay in business (my current employer has been around for 40 years now).

Bill, I'm sorry to hear of your situation. I am sure you are not the only one that has experienced similar things. It does sound as if you were wronged. Not really anything I can offer you other than; I do understand your anger.



and to the kid with a knife; in my area that kid would be in jail. Nobody accepts crap like that. Just because there is an idiot running around doing stupid stuff, do not spread that crap across the rest of us. We are the same as you or anybody else. An assault with a deadly weapon is criminal and he would be treated like a criminal.


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

Go ahead and have him arrested. Then some time next week, or the week after, you'll have some SOB you've never seen before come walking by you with a 2x4, only he won't walk by you. He'll stop and take out your knees. Although I've never seen it with my own eyes, I know of it happening, so don't try and tell me it doesn't. I'm actually surprised I got away with saying what I did to that delegate from Boston. Probably the only reason I did is because here in Maine, the unions are nearly non-existent. That, and maybe he also saw I had a good reason to be pissed.

You're right. It's not the whole union, but I've seen more bad than good. The guy that's the Business agent in Connecticut now-- Ed Hackett-- he's a good guy. I grew up in the trade with him. Matter of fact, he's the first one ever to show me how to scread drypack. But even he couldn't undo what had been done already, and until that's done, I've got nothing good to say about the unions, and the BAC in particular.


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## R&D Tile (Apr 5, 2005)

Come to New York and bad mouth my delegate.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

nap said:


> I know of no trades union that uses seniority for layoffs so the compnay can lay off whomever they choose.


There are some trade unions that use the seniority system - but these are typically along the lines of mass transit, POCOs, MUA, and that sort of arena [The "company" hires the person; the person is then absorbed into the "union].
These are not what most would consider _building_ trade unions.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Celtic said:


> There are some trade unions that use the seniority system - but these are typically along the lines of mass transit, POCOs, MUA, and that sort of arena [The "company" hires the person; the person is then absorbed into the "union].
> These are not what most would consider _building_ trade unions.


 
I stand corrected. Yes, I was speaking of outside trades unions. The union setup in that group are more akin to an inside union.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

nap said:


> I stand corrected. Yes, I was speaking of outside trades unions. The union setup in that group are more akin to an inside union.


Nap...I wasn't trying to correct you....my apologizes if it came across that way.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

Johann said:


> I was told to join the ceramic tile layers union to get bigger jobs. How hard is this, and what would it require? Is it worth it?
> 
> Thank you.


No, it's NOT worth it. 87%+ of all people working in the construction trades in the entire US are NON-UNION. The unions manage to barely hang on by using one of their favorite tactics: EXTORTION AKA PLA's


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Celtic said:


> Nap...I wasn't trying to correct you....my apologizes if it came across that way.


 

How about we call it a clarification then? Cool?:thumbsup:


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

nap said:


> How about we call it a clarification then? Cool?:thumbsup:



It's always cool, bro :thumbup:


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

R&D Tile said:


> Come to New York and bad mouth my delegate.


Richie, I don't know your delegate, nor do I have any experience with the teamsters. Of course, they're so on the level that they're the only labor union to ever be taken over by the feds.

For that matter, I don't know the BAC delegate, either, so I wouldn't badmouth him, either. But you can bet I'd have plenty to say about his union. Let his gorillas do their damndest. Still doesn't change the facts.


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## joelj (Nov 25, 2008)

i live in philadelphia,probably the biggest union city in america,besides boston.you better have deep pockets to get started they will require a massive bond to get started. I have a term i use here called milking.u know hey larry stop milkin that and get it done,well thats what your union brothers are going to do to you.its the mind set of every union worker in any trade,for example thats why it costs $40,000 for a new truck. I had a friend who did it here,he went big allright and lost everything he had..................i want to move to dallas is their work their or do the mexicans have it cornered,just wondering?if anybody reads this and is from dallas


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## joelj (Nov 25, 2008)

*typical*

who joey bag of donuts, or frankie linguinie


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## Ceramictec (Feb 14, 2008)

it's frankie knuckles to you.


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

I can understand some people's frustrations with trade unions. I am a member of the BAC. I do have a few opinions i would like to share. First most people that have these poor opinions of the unions have never worked on a union job site. I know quite a few tradesmen that bashed unions then ended up joining one when they looked at it with an open mind, and all of them wished they did it sooner.
I take great pride in my work and most of my coworkers do also. Sure unions have their problems but what large organization doesn't? But the good far out weighs the bad. I make a good, livable wage for a honest day's work. I have good health insurance (which every productive member of society should have). I also have a pension to retire with one day:w00t:. I have worked in open shops, the last guy i worked for was a great guy. But in my area most open shops do not treat their men well at all. No health insurance, $10-$15 for a journeyman (min. wage is $7.15 for gods sake), and no retirement fund. So that leaves the tax payers to foot the bill for medical assistance now and through retirement, not to mention what other assistance they will need when they are too old to work and have no money saved. And don't even get me started on the amount of illegals on open shop sites.
My Union also donates labor to various needy situations/organizations. We have a program called helmets to hardhats that helps veterans gain employment. After Katrina, 9/11, and other disasters many members donated hour after hour of their time.
The quality of work i have seen on day to day "normal" work is also better on union job sites. I am not saying that non union guys are bad craftsmen. I mean that the average journeyman that i've worked with is more conscience of quality on union jobs. There are great craftsmen on both sides of the fence. I am amazed at some of the pictures of the work non union guys post on here. I am just speaking of the average worker.
I felt the need to give an opposing opinion to the union bashing. My union has been good to me and I would recommend any good craftsman to consider joining. I know that i will get some negitive responses back from this since i think most here are not union members, but every story has two sides and i figured i'd tell alittle of the other side.


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

NJ Brickie, not all of us bashing the union doesn't know what we're talking about. Go back and read my posts. I've got nothing against you. You sound like a decent and conscientious person, but I disagree with you bigtime. My experience has been (in the BAC) that you're the exception, and not the rule.


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## dave peffer (Jan 10, 2009)

*WOW! tell us what you really think!*

Sorry guys, but you're being a little unfair.
I spent years in Local 67, Chicago. I did not like the hall so much but there is politics everywhere.
While I was there:
I worked my ass off
I made good money.
I had the best benefits.
I earned a pension.
I earned an annuity.
I learned the trade...all of it.
I had to compete.
blah, blah, blah.
The nation is flooded with foreign workers; untrained, inexperienced, and willing to do anything for $20/hr.
It would be a good time for a labor organization. I'm in the south as a commercial contractor and the levels of skill are all over the board. I would love to know who to call to find 10 good men when I get a GC in a big frenzy. I'd also love to see men covered by health insurance. I'd love to know these men spoke english. AND---AND, I'd love to know there was a level playing field in the bidding process so some schmuck doesn't underbid me with $1.25/ft prices performed by little men with shiny tools.

The problem with construction unions is not so much the union administrators, but , just like America, lack of participation among the members who allow crooks into office because they're too lazy to get to a vote.

Also, in reference to Chicago NOW. I've been told that new members and poor mechanics are being told to think about a different career because they don't anticipate being able to employ many people for quite some time.

As for all the complaints above, I love you guys, but it's sour grapes. Life is a game man, play, play, play.
As for me, I just like to be independent and do things my way.


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

> As for me, I just like to be independent and do things my way.


There ya go. That says it all.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Bill_Vincent said:


> There ya go. That says it all.


can you guys expand on this a bit? Your way. What's it mean. The contractors in my area do it "their way". The rules we have, for the largest part, are simply replications of the current labor laws in place. We do have a lunch break on our contract (which, believe it or not, is not legally required in most states).

Not sure what "my way" really means. (hopefully it doesn't mean screw your employers and break the law. from the guys posting in this thread I would not expect to hear anything like that.)


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

Do your state labor laws include how much work a person can complete before the employer is forced to pay the full 8 hours PLUS overtime for any work done past that limit? I forget what the limit is, but anywhere in NYC's jurisdiction, a tile mechanic can only install so much footage, and it doesn't matter if he finishes it up at 1:00 or 4:00-- it's 8 hours pay for that day, and any time past that is time and a half. I DO remember that it's no sweat to finish the footage early. That's BS. The way I was raised, you go to work, and during the time you're there, you give your best for that time, and whatever time you're there, that's the time you get paid for. and my father WAS a union contractor.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Bill_Vincent said:


> Do your state labor laws include how much work a person can complete before the employer is forced to pay the full 8 hours PLUS overtime for any work done past that limit? I forget what the limit is, but anywhere in NYC's jurisdiction, a tile mechanic can only install so much footage, and it doesn't matter if he finishes it up at 1:00 or 4:00-- it's 8 hours pay for that day, and any time past that is time and a half.


I know of no contracts in my area that have anything of the sort. Every one I am aware of is simple; 1hours pay for 1 hour of being on the job. Yes, we do have OT after 8 in my ibew local but I really don;t see that as anything close to limiting an EC in running his own business.

to be honest, to address the situation you present, I would have to have very specific info but as a general reply; when a contractor is bidding a job, they generally calculate X hours for X square footage. Since he is aware of the rule, he simply calculates the amount of square footage and divides that by the number of days it will take when using the max footage per day rule and prices accordingly. Contractor does not get injured. While I do see that rule as overly restrictive, I would suggest there are ways to make it not as easy as you say it is but I would suggest the contractor does not see this as a major problem or they would find ways to deal with it differently.

So, is that the only reason you claim the unions do not allow a contractor to run things "their way". The way you guys talk, you would think a contractor cannot unlock his door in the morning without the unions approval. Sometimes people get alll worked up over things when they are not actually a problem other than the mentaility of "this is my company and nobody is going to tell me how to do any part of it". If one has that attitude, they might as well dump the business now because if it's not the unions, then it's the government controlling them, or it's the damn customers wanting things their way, or...


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

The union fees plus carpenters-not floor layers- that they forced me to hire-plus their wages(double my regular employees), plus their break times when there is a glue on the slab, was just enough for me to quit GAP stores floor installations.Thanks but no THANKS!


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## NJ Brickie (Jan 31, 2009)

Astor----"Double my regular employees" and your quote "do it for free and someone will still beat you" is exactly the need for a union. The race to the bottom will not help anyone. lets face it most of the tradespeople have jobs that are atleast twice as hard physically than the average job and equal to others in the need for knowledge. Why do we uncut each other at every turn? Everytime you cut your competitors throat it will happen to you 5 times. Shouldn't a man that works in the trades make enough to live comfortably, with health coverage and retirement money? I know there hasn't been one pay check that i've felt guilty cashing.We all work hard, why then are there so many of us living below middle class?


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## Bill_Vincent (Apr 6, 2005)

> "do it for free and someone will still beat you"


If you bid based on price, and then drop your pants because you're afraid of getting underbid, you're beat already. Even if you get the job, you won't be able to afford to do it right, and then your reputation is gone. Even in this economy, I'd rather lose a job than shortchange it, just to get it.


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

R&D Tile said:


> Yes, I can get fired right now, but, unlike my non-union friend, I'll be back at work tomorrow with full pay for the day I missed if I was wrongly fired, in other words, I would have had to break a contract rule or worse, like cursing out my boss, I would never:laughing:, or be caught stealing time or property, failing a drug teat etc, get the picture, not that easy.


 
This is my problem with the union. If I don't like the guy, he's GONE!!! if the guy is a great worker, shows up, good at his job, doesn't slack to much, but has a ****ty attitude, I ain't putting up with it. Or, lets say he isn't a d*ck, let's say he shows up, but works real slow and makes little if no progress, No one's gonna call me the next day and say, "he did his job, even though he was slow, he was moving, and your paying him for yesterday when you fired him". If he's a you-know-what and bringing down the force, he's gone. Try firing someone cause of their attitude in the union. You may be able to lay off the slow guy, but until you do you gotta pay his slow a**, because "well, he was on the job". Well, of course he was on the job, if I would have fired him he would have filed a grievance! It's a no win situation.

The other issue I see is the attitudes of union guys when an open shop works on the project. Now, the following statement may not apply everywhere, and may just be in the MD, DC & VA market, but I digress.. Say a union company performs interior work, consisting of framing, insulation, rough carpentry, drywall, acoustics, door packages, etc..and wins a bid to frame a project. And lets say an open shop company, who performs the same exact tasks wins the drywall & acoustics portion of the project. The union guys raise all hell everywhere they can, even on the jobsite with the open shop employees right there about how the open shop is taking work from the union, and how they are no good rats taking work from them only because they are no good and are sh*t companies who pay nothing,etc... HOWEVER, if it's the reverse, and a union company beats the open shop, and the open shop were to say the same things in front of the union employees, it be a down right street fight. It's not the open shop companies fault you didn't win the bid, it is your employer, don't take it out on us.

But i've even seen it happen with two completely different trades....

*Extreme Situation*: Years back before I went in business, I believe it was maybe '94 or '96, we were doing the glass & glazing retrofit on a hecht company. Inside was a large union interior contractor doing the interior work (see trades specified above), at the time I believe they were at the acoustical portion of the job. Outside, a open shop company was doing the stone work on the exterior, on a scissor lift. Prior to lunch there was a bit of a ruckus between the union + open shop company, it broke up before lunch time. After lunch the open shop guys go back up on the lift to continue work. Bout 15-20 minutes after we return to work we hear this HUGE crash. The guys in the lift had fell 25-30' and were threw out of the lift into the road, and onto the sidewalk. One man died, two were rushed to the hospital, and I do not know what ever happend to them health wise. After investigation it was found that at lunch time, while we were all inside, a group of union guys had went out and cut the brake line on the lift. However, you know the brotherhood, nobody saw anything (sure.). All because an open shop company was doing a job that you didn't even perform?!?!?! What about their families? Themselves? Their HUMAN LIVES?:furious:

Than there are the select union extremists, which I will say in my opinion are few and far between anymore, who live and die by the union, and wouldn't pick up a tool for you if you dropped it because "it's not in their job description".

I know the union has amazing benefits, but the assumption that they are the only ones who provide decent benefits is far-fetched. I provide full, 100% company paid medical, dental & eye insurance for individuals, 70% company paid for families ($15 copays), 401k w/ 30% company match, paid vacation, paid holidays, two company activities a year for the employees and their family, and bonuses for good performance. My wages for my men are also within $3.00-$5.00/hour to the unions current contract for a carpenter classification. The only exception to that are my peice workers.

May not be "Union" quality benefits, but I think I provide a damn good platform for a good life in & after the trades for my employees.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Mud Master said:


> After investigation it was found that at lunch time, while we were all inside, a group of union guys had went out and cut the brake line on the lift. However, you know the brotherhood, nobody saw anything (sure.).



How would an investigation show a "group" cut the lines?
Especially when "nobody saw anything"?

Sounds like extreme speculation to me.


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

NJ Brickie said:


> Astor----"Double my regular employees" and your quote "do it for free and someone will still beat you" is exactly the need for a union. The race to the bottom will not help anyone. lets face it most of the tradespeople have jobs that are atleast twice as hard physically than the average job and equal to others in the need for knowledge. Why do we uncut each other at every turn? Everytime you cut your competitors throat it will happen to you 5 times. Shouldn't a man that works in the trades make enough to live comfortably, with health coverage and retirement money? I know there hasn't been one pay check that i've felt guilty cashing.We all work hard, why then are there so many of us living below middle class?


Am I saying different than you say?I am just pointing out that there is no point going low,there will be always someone will beat you in the price.i never race to the bottom.Actually most of my customers thinks I do charge low for the work I provide, so I keep hiking my rates lately.
I pay my guys fairly good and keep them happy,but I can not pay $35/hr honestly.
Here I am talking as a independent contractor/employer not a person on payroll. If a person on payroll convinced that union is good for him,he should look for a union job, but not on my turf.
Tell me how and why exactly I need the union?


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## astor (Dec 19, 2008)

Bill_Vincent said:


> If you bid based on price, and then drop your pants because you're afraid of getting underbid, you're beat already. Even if you get the job, you won't be able to afford to do it right, and then your reputation is gone. Even in this economy, I'd rather lose a job than shortchange it, just to get it.


That's exactly what I meant!:thumbsup:


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## detroitMi (Sep 10, 2008)

*lol*

I've joined the Union back in 2001.My rent at that time was 1000$ a month.I couldn't make a living outta that Union pay check of 340 dollars a week,believe it or not.Who cares about the Union benefits if I can't make a living out of that check.Yeah I know what you think now: why in the H*** did you joined the Union. Because I've been told by others "those that I bet never been involved with the Union "over there you make a 1000$ a week,nobody told me about their Union duce and other taxes .No one told me ,when I join I have to sign all those papers,had no choice.I don't care if union guys get paied more than non union.My point to you is .they were cheap with a professional tile installer.The contractor used to leave me in the job " a huge brand new house "with a helper and the rest was on me ,Mud the damn whole house (they couldn't stand no backerboards),install all that tile ,giving it back to them all done ,and you're paying me 340 a week? the rest of 550 was what Union taxes? come on bro ,wake up,make the math.When I first seen that cheap A** check I couldn't believe it and I start laughing ,I thought they were joking.Later on the brother's contractor told me what's Union all about and the rest of it was taxes.

Later on I complained to the Union Boss ,his answer was , if I wanna see more money on my pay check I have to work twice as much.In other words,"do me two houses instead of one you stupid" and let us make the money so we can pay you.They were chargin their customers somewhere between17 and 20 some a sqft.They didn't have enough money to pay me.That's a joke ,stupid one .That's BS.I've said hell with you Union guys and I left the job.As a matter of fact That Union Contractor still owes me 40 bucks cash, for some over time,he never answered the phone since.I never left him a message over 40 bucks. either.All I want is "Give me what's mine " and don't cheat me that way.Dont want anyting else.That's what happened here in Detroit Michigan at" Tile Terazzo Union Local "back in 2001.You guys talk about Union? cheap A** Union


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

Celtic said:


> How would an investigation show a "group" cut the lines?
> Especially when "nobody saw anything"?
> 
> Sounds like extreme speculation to me.


 
I didn't mean the no one saw anything literally, they were covering up for each other. They protected their fellow brothers. They all knew who did it.

And maybe it wasn't a "group" per-se, the investigation showed SOMEONE cut the brake line. But that "someone" had to have help to get under the lift due to where it was sitting at the time.

2 or more= a group.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Mud Master said:


> I didn't mean the no one saw anything literally, they were covering up for each other. They protected their fellow brothers. They all knew who did it.
> 
> And maybe it wasn't a "group" per-se, the investigation showed SOMEONE cut the brake line. But that "someone" had to have help to get under the lift due to where it was sitting at the time.
> 
> 2 or more= a group.


actions such as this are despicable no matter who did it and something I do not support in any manner.

so now, since somebody died and the others were injured, I would presume there were criminal charges against somebody. What happened to those charged?


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## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

nap said:


> actions such as this are despicable no matter who did it and something I do not support in any manner.
> 
> so now, since somebody died and the others were injured, I would presume there were criminal charges against somebody. What happened to those charged?


 
Thats the thing, no one was, because the guys who did it, their union brothers protected them. We had cops, OSHA, detectives there for almost 2 months in and out, no one would give a name, no one "knew anything". The only subs on the job that particular day were us, the union contractor, the masons, and the electricians, and we ate lunch with the electricians cause they were our friends, and the masons were across from us. 

Your right, it is dispicable, for any one. It doesn't matter if their union, non union, construction, non construction to do it. The story itself jus seemed appropriate for the thread.


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