# Discreet services...anyone doing them?



## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Don't respond with "Yes I do but if I told you about it I would have to kill you."  because if you do, I will have to kill you. :laughing:

Seriously, does anyone here provide residential construction services for things like hidden rooms, disguised passages and exits, shielded and safe rooms, movable walls, etc? We have been doing this for about 4 years (6 jobs so far, all in existing homes) and we are trying to expand our presence in the corporate world. Not to do commercial applications but for corporate executives' homes. The nature of the work precludes using references and overt advertising, however. 

We have provided information about our services to companies that sell or manufacture items and materials for this type of work, security companies doing corporate security, and to past clients who we feel may know someone with a potential need. 

All our work has been by reference and I guess that may be the only approach to getting more business as we want to stay low-key. Anyone have any other ideas?


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

I have been asked to make bookcases that swing open to reveal 'hidden' stuff before. I feel odd taking on these jobs.

I feel like I'm abetting a criminal or something. What use is this room for? Why have it hidden?


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## kbsparky (Oct 14, 2007)

You could also be aiding someone trying to protect their property _from _criminals.

WE recently did a job where the bookcase was recessed into the wall, and the entire assembly swung open to a hidden room where the gun safes were kept. :blink:


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## olyteddy (Oct 27, 2006)

During a rehab/remodel we built a small (4' X 3') hidden closet down in Portland once by robbing about 2 feet from adjoining bedroom closets. Unless you used a tape measure you probably wouldn't notice the missing space.


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

This type of work is actually very serious stuff. Don't be fooled into thinking it is just for a kid's hide away or a place to hide the girlie mags from the family.

http://www.hiddenpassageway.com/


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## HitchC&L (Mar 7, 2008)

My father did work for Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn

He didnt build any of the security stuff, it was already basically built, but I guess the house was built like a castle, cameras everywhere, huge fences, nothing was getting in that wasnt supposed to.

One thing he did was fix an oak desk that was one of the only possessions he took with him when he was exiled from russia, and my father wasnt allowed to take it off the property back into his shop, he had to do all work on site because it was too risky apparently to let it off the property.


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## dubz (Sep 8, 2008)

I thought this thread was about you sharing the number of a "special" masseuse you know.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

I personally have never built anything like that, I saw a really cool hidden room in an old house I worked in, hidden by a cupboard, the work was incredible, you couldn't tell it was there and the door functioned perfectly.

Last year I worked on a new construction house that had a huge "safe room"/hidden room put in, very elaborate, it wasn't on the plans for the house and was added after the final inspection, no permits, no inspection.

When you do these "Discreet" rooms do you pull permits and/or submit plans? It's seems like doing so would defeat the purpose, out here through the FOIA, in some towns you (anyone) can get a look at submitted plan and permits, they are public records, you can always get the permits but not always the plan. Just curious.


.


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## Willie T (Jan 29, 2009)

I built a bomb shelter once................. for a preacher.  :whistling


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

I have one in my house for stashing guns, cash and "stuff".

You'd never know it was there.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Celtic said:


> I have one in my house for stashing guns, cash and "stuff".
> 
> *You'd never know it was there.*




Know it was where? :whistling






.


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## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

Mike(VA) said:


> All our work has been by reference and I guess that may be the only approach to getting more business as we want to stay low-key. Anyone have any other ideas?


I don't see any reason why you couldn't actively market this service instead of relying on references alone. It would be pretty easy to target this market via direct mail or high-end publications. 

Where you perform the work needs to be low-key but not the fact that your company offers the service. The Navy SEALS' existence and function is well known, where they are is another matter altogether :2guns:sama:


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

Celtic said:


> I have one in my house for stashing guns, cash and "stuff".
> 
> You'd never know it was there.


Thanks for the info. It is now posted on the WWW. Secret?:laughing:


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

I've done a few. Made a desk with a pretty large hidden compartment. Made an entertainment system that used a linear actuator to hide it in the wall, push a button and it comes out, push it again and it goes back. Also a recessed panel that swings in to provide access to some mechanicals. You could put anything in there though. Cash, guns etc. Never made a swinging bookcase or an entrance to a hidden room.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Leo G said:


> I've done a few. Made a desk with a pretty large hidden compartment. Made an entertainment system that used a linear actuator to hide it in the wall, push a button and it comes out, push it again and it goes back. Also a recessed panel that swings in to provide access to some mechanicals. You could put anything in there though. Cash, guns etc. Never made a swinging bookcase or an entrance to a hidden room.


That desk isn't in a house in Suffield by chance?






.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mickeyco said:


> Know it was where? :whistling


Who? :shifty:


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## RobertCDF (Aug 18, 2005)

You could easily advertise for this... However you cant pursue the neighbors, use lettered trucks, put signs in the yard and so on. Unless you have some other stuff going on. I will sometimes take a picture of a project we did and print up postcards and mail them out to neighbors saying "we recently completed this project in your neighborhood" Probably not a good idea for this kind of "stuff"


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Cdat said:


> Thanks for the info. It is now posted on the WWW. Secret?:laughing:


It might be.

First you would have to figure out who/where I am....be warned, I may have moved by then...and then figure out just where the hell it is?
Like I said...you'd never know it was there....or if I was in there waiting for YOU! :shifty:


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Celtic said:


> Who? :shifty:



What? :shifty:









.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mickeyco said:


> What? :shifty:



...for lunch...I'll have to get back to you on that subject. :thumbsup:


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Also, this isn't just paranoia with these people. Some highly placed corporate executives, beauracrats, and politicians have serious concerns about personal safety. Many individuals in certain cultural communities have a real concern about home invasions. The Vietnamese, Korean, and Chinese here in the DC area have a real fear of this. 

Right now, I am learning more and trying to determine how to market this and to whom as well as quantifying my services to specific needs in my area. I think once I break into the corporate enclave here, my chances of referals increase dramatically.


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## [email protected] (Dec 18, 2008)

One of my builders put a "pantry" behind a full length cabinet (30x80). Big enough for a gun safe + groceries. Grandpa had the ends of the kitchen soffit removeable and gun racks inside. Lots of possibilities.


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

Mike (VA) mind if I steal parts from that doc? 

Dirt - look back to my prior post, that is all that guy does

Around here some people look for tornado shelters inside, their not really into hidden rooms - I would love to work on a few of them though


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

I have been thinking about this for a long time. I think this is an idea that could be successful in both good times and bad times.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh... I followed the link to the web site showcasing this "serious" work, and in all honesty, I find it a serious subject. That was until i clicked on the first photo link.

It was a photo of a bookcase in which the far left section swung out to reveal [dun dun duuunnn!!!!] a hidden bookcase, complete with books on it.

I was shocked! Imagine someone wanting to hide books, behind books. I think someone was trying to impress a librarian.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Dad always built something in and he was damned good! Sometimes he couldn't remember his own fabrications, we often wonder how much was lost.

His legacy carries on, all of my homes have had some sort of 'hidey hole). I differ in that other people know where they are.


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## Bkessler (Oct 8, 2005)

I wanted to install one of those giant underground utility vaults in my back yard. one would make a good bomb shelter or new home after the big one.
The biggest I ever installed was as big as a bedroom, and with a skilled escavator only takes a few hours to drop in place. Of course I never had to pay for one personally.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

Jusr remember one thing. You start selling a product to people with security issues, it just might come back to haunt you. If you're the only one who knows where something is, you just made yourself a target.


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Sean, you may borrow whatever you like. All that I ask is that if you use the document in its entirety, give me credit. Also, I will have that up on my site in a couple of days. We could back-link each other if you want. Helps both of our SEO.

Cdat, you are correct. There is a risk, however, the work I have done has been camoflaged (sp) with other work. Even with advertising, none of my records reflect what I actually did for my client other than the 'secondary' work. I suppose that someone would be able to 'get it out of me' if they really wanted to but, hey, I could step through a hole in the floor tomorrow and people will be talking about me in past tense.

Double-A, you aren't paranoid enough to think like they do. :laughing: As long as paranoid people have green folding money, I don't care how weird they are. If you have a collection of very rare books, where would you hide them? Not any different than a large safe, just more accessible and a lot more intriguing. 

If you stop and let your mind wander a bit, and start looking on the web for related information, you could see that there are a lot of possibilities for this type of work, even in your area. Maybe you target disaster safety, and maybe some features are just for fun. Also, some of these features become unique selling aspects of the house. Many of the security features, however, are not revealed until after the house is sold.

I think that many of us may survive this downturn only by specializing or finding niche markets.


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## RizzoMaryland (Feb 12, 2007)

I think this niche is a great idea. Especially for those of us who live and work in the DC metro area. (Interesting to note that MIKE, the OP, is located in "America's Most Livable Community" according to local radio stations).

I recently worked in a residence in McLean VA that is the local home of aforeign ambassador of an Arab kingdom. The security here was tight. I imagine these types of clients (certainly have the dough) and are seeking this type of work. 

One challenge that would occur in performing this type of work would be tackling all the science involved. Personally I know nothing about stress fractures in metals (safes, safe rooms, etc), or wall reinforcement requirements for a bomb shelter, or air quality control for safe rooms against biological attacks. I imagine the people who would purchase these products aren't looking for just the "cool factor" and are really concerned with their survival. In the outside chance that these types of projects would get put into use, they must work as designed. Which relates to the liability factor in others posts.

As mentioned, there is nothing in the "code book" about this type of survival construction. So how would one tackle this obstacle?


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Its a little hard to find them but there are archys and engineers who specialize in the design of these features. Personally, I would never attempt to try and design a life-saving feature myself. I don't have the expertise which is why I go to those who do. Also, some of these features are manufactured by companies who have done the science and their product (hopefully) reflect it. I concentrate on construction and installation as well as 'creative thinking'.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

There are agencies and engineers who spealize in the design of such things. Do you need me to provide some links? This may be a niche thingy here on this forum or in this country but it is a little bit more widely accepted overseas.

Which brings up an interesting concept. Any of you that do this work, interested in work in other countries? I may be able to send some work in your direction.


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

Leo G said:


> I've done a few. Made a desk with a pretty large hidden compartment. Made an entertainment system that used a linear actuator to hide it in the wall, push a button and it comes out, push it again and it goes back. Also a recessed panel that swings in to provide access to some mechanicals. You could put anything in there though. Cash, guns etc. Never made a swinging bookcase or an entrance to a hidden room.


Nice going Leo , You just let the cat out of the bag............uhh, desk.


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Thanks, cdat. I am not interested in overseas work, only in my area. I would think that companies who specialize in international security construction already approach this. What's Blackwater's new name? I bet they would be a good source of information, even locally, IF you could get past the moat dragons. If you have people who participate in this area in whatever fashion, I certainly would appreciate the information either here or by PM.


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## roof-lover (Sep 19, 2008)

Might be a bad time for this type of business.
*Since right now a bill is in the house(HR 45)to criminalize gun owners.*
If you have anyone in the house under 18 years old, the government will have the right to enter your home, you show them exactly where your guns are so that they can determine that your guns are "safe" from the children.

*So there would be no legal hidden compartments from the government.*

*Incarceration would be the penalty for noncompliance. 5 years in prison.*

I just received this last night. I couldn't even sleep. I have never in my life not been able to sleep because of fear.

Copy and paste the words written below and send them to everyone you know. Call/ write your congressman. NOW.


Blair Holt Firearm Licensing 
& Record of Sale Act 2-16-9 

Very important for you to be aware of a new bill HR 45 introduced into the House. 

This is the Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sale Act of 2009. 

We just learned yesterday about this on the Peter Boyles radio program. 

Even gun shop owners didn't know about this because it is flying under the radar. 

To find out about this - go to any government website and type in HR 45 or *Google HR 45 Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sales Act of 2009.* You will get all the information. 

Basically this would make it illegal to own a firearm - any rifle with a clip or ANY pistol unless: 

·It is registered 

·You are fingerprinted 

·You supply a current Driver's License 


·You supply your Social Security # 

·You will submit to a physical & mental evaluation at any time of their choosing 

·Each update - change or ownership through private or public sale must be reported and costs $25 - Failure to do so you automatically lose the right to own a firearm and are subject up to a year in jail. 

·There is a child provision clause on page 16 section 305 stating a child-access provision. Gun must be locked and inaccessible to any child under 18. 

They would have the right to come and inspect that you are storing your gun safely away from accessibility to children and fine is punishable for up to 5 yrs. in prison. 

If you think this is a joke - go to the website and take your pick of many options to read this. It is long and lengthy. But, more and more people are becoming aware of this. Pass the word along. Any hunters in your family - pass this along.. 

Peter Boyles is on this and having guests. Listen to him on K.H.O.W. 6:30 a.m. in the morning. He suggests the best way to fight this is to tell all your friends about it and "spring into action". Also he suggests we all join a pro-gun group like the Colorado Rifle Association, hunting associations, gun clubs and especially the NRA. 

This is just a "termite" approach to complete confiscation of guns and disarming of our society to the point we have no defense - chip away a little here and there until the goal is accomplished before anyone realizes it. 

This is one to act on whether you own a gun or not. 

If you take my gun, only the criminal will have one to use against me. HR 45 only makes me/us less safe. After working with convicts for 26 years I know this bill, if passed, would make them happy and in less danger from their victims. 

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H..R.45 Then do a search on house bills and scroll down to H.B. 45

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h45/show

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-45

Please.. copy and paste into new email and send this out to EVERYONE in the USA 

More On Gun Grab HR 45 Here... 

http://news.google.com/news?oe=UTF-8&hl=en&tab=in&ned=&q=HR+45&btnG=Search+News


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Roof-lover, a short post commenting would have been appropriate. Please don't try to hi-jack this thread no matter how important you think it is. Your post, if you are that worried, would be best under Off Topic or in the P&R section. Thanks for your participation.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

Wow, and you accused me of spam?! Anyho, here are some links of other people's approaches to this exciting new concept:
http://projectdevelopers.com/library/copperenclosures.html
http://aglobalconstruction.com/
http://www.gaffco.com/gaffco_saferooms.htm
http://www.randrbuildersllc.com/saferoom.htm
http://www.americansaferoom.com/Safe-Cell-home-apartment-installations.htm
http://www.saferoom.com/
http://www.safezoneballistics.com/products/vipHouses.html?gclid=CJ-P-_Pi_JgCFQKHxwodRDVpng
http://www.lowryconst.com/saferoom.htm
http://www.stormsaferoom.com/aboveground/index.htm


I really like how they can sell it off as a tornado shelter. That would be an added selling point I think...


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## roof-lover (Sep 19, 2008)

Mike(VA) said:


> Roof-lover, a short post commenting would have been appropriate. Please don't try to hi-jack this thread no matter how important you think it is. Your post, if you are that worried, would be best under Off Topic or in the P&R section. Thanks for your participation.


I am not trying to hijack a thread.
I am directly talking about the subject at hand.
With this bill in the house right now you would not be able to hide your guns. It would be against the law.

*I guess these hidey holes are great as long as you are not putting guns inside them OR You show the government exactly where your hidey hole is at.*

Are you saying that my posting this here does not apply directly to the subject ?

Im sorry to have offended you.


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Roof-lover, you didn't offend me at all. The information does have some relevence however, reading through all the past posts, you would realize that there is more to this work than just hidey holes for guns. I guess my problem was you posting a whole 'cut and paste' article rather than a link to relevent subject matter. 

I don't see anything there that says you can't hide them just that you have to reveal that place to inspectors, not the general public. BTW, I am not in favor of this legislation at all, but many times our job is to develop 'work-arounds' to this kind of stuff. :whistling


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## SLSTech (Sep 13, 2008)

Mike(VA) said:


> Sean, you may borrow whatever you like. All that I ask is that if you use the document in its entirety, give me credit. Also, I will have that up on my site in a couple of days. We could back-link each other if you want. Helps both of our SEO.


Thanks & giving credit is not a problem, I just might throw the link in an upcoming article (once you get your page up). Back links, there is a thread on it with a whole group of us doing this. I will get a link up for you probably within the next few days which will be found here http://www.sls-construction.com/Assoc.htm


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

jmic said:


> Nice going Leo , You just let the cat out of the bag............uhh, desk.


If you happen so stumble upon it. There are quite a few houses in suffield. Maybe a few more than that.:blink:


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Thanks, Sean. I must admit I have to figure out how to provide the backlink since my site is relatively new. For now I will probably have Carl Sorensen (he did my site) do it for me until I know how to do it effectively.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

roof-lover said:


> I am not trying to hijack a thread.
> I am directly talking about the subject at hand.
> With this bill in the house right now you would not be able to hide your guns. It would be against the law.
> 
> ...


That is hi-jacking a thread to push your own agenda. That bill is for people who sell guns that have a permit to sell guns only. That means a gun store unless you do business outside of your own home. If you refuse the inspectors to enter your house, they will still have to get a warrent to do so. Please don't try to push your crap off as legit when you only cut and paste the parts of the bill that you see fit to show people. Read the entire thing (I did).


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

Back on Track : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=him0NfgFOH0


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## roof-lover (Sep 19, 2008)

Cdat said:


> to push your own agenda.


My agenda?

I didnt present a bill that would take rights away from the american people.
Your agenda is to minimize what is actually happening.

If you read it, your reading comprehension is really, really bad.
Everything you interpreted is incorrect.

I believe our home is our castle.
I believe we should have hidey spots if we want them.
And we shouldnt have to show them to the government if we decide to put a gun in there.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

roof-lover said:


> If you read it, your reading comprehension is really, really bad.
> Everything you interpreted is incorrect....


*-SEC. 403. INSPECTIONS.*

In order to ascertain compliance with this Act, the amendments made by this Act, and the regulations and orders issued under this Act, the Attorney General may, *during regular business hours*, enter any place in which firearms or firearm products are manufactured, stored, or held, *for distribution in commerce*, and inspect those areas where the products are so manufactured, stored, or held.-


Yeap, I can't read at all...So, should I worry? Meet my son...









Now, back to our regular scheduled programming...


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

> *-SEC. 403. INSPECTIONS.*
> 
> In order to ascertain compliance with this Act, the amendments made by this Act, and the regulations and orders issued under this Act, the Attorney General may, *during regular business hours, enter any place in which firearms or firearm products are* manufactured, *stored*, or held, for distribution in commerce, and inspect those areas where the products are so manufactured, stored, or held.-



I could easily see the government interpret it this way.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

Leo G said:


> I could easily see the government interpret it this way.


But it is not written that way. Written wins over interpretation every time.:thumbsup: By the way, love your woodwork. Even though that hidden compartment don't look finished.:whistling


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Cdat, DNFTT.


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## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Cdat said:


> But it is not written that way. Written wins over interpretation every time.:thumbsup: By the way, love your woodwork. Even though that hidden compartment don't look finished.:whistling


It is finished. It got a dull coating on it. Not much shine at all.

Thanks


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

roof-lover said:


> ·There is a child provision clause on page 16 section 305 stating a child-access provision. Gun must be locked and inaccessible to any child under 18.





roof-lover said:


> I guess these hidey holes are great as long as you are not putting guns inside them OR You show the government exactly where your hidey hole is at.



Dude...you contradicted yourself...:blink:


You might consider starting your own thread as this thread is not about guns.

Run the flag upside down on another pole.


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## Mitch M (Dec 4, 2006)

Mike(VA) said:


> Its a little hard to find them but there are archys and engineers who specialize in the design of these features. Personally, I would never attempt to try and design a life-saving feature myself. I don't have the expertise which is why I go to those who do. Also, some of these features are manufactured by companies who have done the science and their product (hopefully) reflect it. I concentrate on construction and installation as well as 'creative thinking'.


Mike, from what I see on your website and your profile, you are a GC. That being said, I am going to assume that you do not do everything yourself. You sub it out. I look at the safe rooms, etc as the same thing. Like you said, you want to do the "creative thinking". I looked into the storm shelters a few years ago after one of the hurricanes hit NC. I am fascinated by it all as well. You have relit a fire in me to maybe look at it again. I work with a structural engineer on various jobs so I know I can count on him for the structural integrity of it. I also have my local contacts for hardware, doors, etc. These are people that I trust and I know that they will be discreet as well. But also like someone else said, there are packages that you can buy or have installed. The key that I see is to create the desire and need, then build it. Either way, you want to make sure you control the process.

I have ideas of how to do the jobs as well to keep the public from really knowing what it is. I also have some ideas for marketing it. I will probably look at the safe room concept for storm protection as well as securing collections, etc. With the economy like it is I am open to just about anything. I am also looking at some other stuff that can compliment safe rooms.


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

Mike(VA) said:


> Don't respond with "Yes I do but if I told you about it I would have to kill you."  because if you do, I will have to kill you. :laughing:
> 
> Seriously, does anyone here provide residential construction services for things like hidden rooms, disguised passages and exits, shielded and safe rooms, movable walls, etc? We have been doing this for about 4 years (6 jobs so far, all in existing homes) and we are trying to expand our presence in the corporate world. Not to do commercial applications but for corporate executives' homes. The nature of the work precludes using references and overt advertising, however.
> 
> ...


 
yeah NGO contractor so ""Yes I do but if I told you about it I would have to kill you."


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## HOOT (Feb 22, 2009)

HOOT said:


> yeah NGO contractor so ""Yes I do but if I told you about it I would have to kill you."


 
it is a good attempt, but the guys that do the real "DISCREET" services wouldn't touch this topic publicly cause they could possibly be out of a job.

So, really all you are gonna get is the residential version....


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## critter (Nov 27, 2008)

dan-o said:


> I don't see any reason why you couldn't actively market this service instead of relying on references alone. It would be pretty easy to target this market via direct mail or high-end publications.
> 
> Where you perform the work needs to be low-key but not the fact that your company offers the service. The Navy SEALS' existence and function is well known, where they are is another matter altogether :2guns:sama:


I built a swing -away bookcase that allows exit from a room in case of fire, not for secrecy ...just for safety ...without an extra door staring at you.
There's a lot of reasons for hidden passages/spaces.

I would think advertising is not a security problem at all. However, when you are doing the work, it would be prudent to have a plain vehicle and plain clothes (no advertising) or use bogus magnetic signs like some sort of electronic security company logo. Whether you advertise or not, your presence at a client's home needs not be identifiable, IMHO.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Mike(VA) said:


> Don't respond with "Yes I do but if I told you about it I would have to kill you."  because if you do, I will have to kill you. :laughing:
> 
> Seriously, does anyone here provide residential construction services for things like hidden rooms, disguised passages and exits, shielded and safe rooms, movable walls, etc? We have been doing this for about 4 years (6 jobs so far, all in existing homes) and we are trying to expand our presence in the corporate world. Not to do commercial applications but for corporate executives' homes. The nature of the work precludes using references and overt advertising, however.
> 
> ...


I thought you were going to say you gave the desperate house wife MILF client a little something extra.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.:whistling


Remember what Larry the Cable guy says.

Guns don't kill people, husbands coming home early from work do.


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

Mitch, yes, I am a GC. Any project we all do comprised of components that we assemble to the specifications of the owner. There are a lot of components that go into the features we build which is where I think the crux of this business is. Putting the available components together and disguising what we do is a bit different from just installing a pre-assembled shelter.

Well, HOOT, if you read all the previous posts, that is all I want to do is residential sevices. If you read Dan-o's post a while back, you will see where the flavor of the thread changed from a request to market discreetly to one of how to define the niche and have a more overt marketing process.


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