# When is a job good enough and a homeowner is being unreasonable?



## CharlieAaron (May 9, 2017)

We built a fence for this woman who lives in a development with an HOA. We have built multiple fences in this development and have never had a problem with the HOA approving of it, despite them having a reputation amongst fencing contractors to be difficult to work with. No one has ever complained our fences, whether the homeowner or HOA. 

That is, until this piece of work came into our lives. Long story short, she has a beautiful fence, up to code with the HOA, all that good stuff. But it turns out the fence is never good enough for her. There is always a board she doesn't like ("too many knots, they are ugly") or something isn't straight enough (I guess because in her imaginary world her whole yard is level and perfectly straight?). We showed up this morning to make some "corrections" she is stalling us out for and she and her husband are going around and measuring EVERY fence board! They are inspecting this thing like they expect to find a nugget of gold if they look hard enough!

They have said they will not pay until the HOA approves. They will not call the HOA to approve until all of the little "imperfections" are fixed. This has been dragging out for over a month now. 

What kind of recourse do we have to declare good enough is good enough? The fence looks amazing. Our contract just states that it will be built to code and to HOA specs. It matches both of those. What can we do at this point?


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

It sounds like they are trying to wear you down so they can withhold payment. What are the payment terms on your contract? Does it have an attorney's fee clause for collection of payment?

I would ask them for a written detailed punch list of items that when completed payment in full will be made. If not, tell them you are going to file a lien on their property and a law suit against them for payment.


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## CharlieAaron (May 9, 2017)

NJ Contractor said:


> It sounds like they are trying to wear you down so they can withhold payment. What are the payment terms on your contract? Does it have an attorney's fee clause for collection of payment?
> 
> I would ask them for a written detailed punch list of items that when completed payment in full will be made. If not, tell them you are going to file a lien on their property and a law suit against them for payment.


Payment was supposed to be a simple pay in full at the end as it was only supposed to take 4-5 days and we've never experienced this before. We don't have any clauses about attorney fees or disputes but we are quickly learning what else needs to be in the contract. 

The punch list is great. What happens, though, when someone wants to correct your work while you are still working on it? That's been part of the delay is that she is making corrections in the middle of the work. We are only now at the end of the job.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Go to the HOA.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

If you've done work in that community before and I assume it is of the same level of quality and materials based on your post, did she look at them as part of her qualification process in choosing you? 

If so, hit her with some reality and bring her to one of them and show her what not only her neighbors liked but (and since she said she'd pay when HOA approved) that the HOA approved previously...


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## CharlieAaron (May 9, 2017)

KAP said:


> If you've done work in that community before and I assume it is of the same level of quality and materials based on your post, did she look at them as part of her qualification process in choosing you?
> 
> If so, hit her with some reality and bring her to one of them and show her what not only her neighbors liked but (and since she said she'd pay when HOA approved) that the HOA approved previously...


Yeah, she checked out the other fences and liked them. When we told her today that she is the only one who has had problems, she said (and I quote), "When you say that, it sounds like you are singling me out, and I take it personally." Then she tells us "other" neighbors have had problems and they have talked to her at length about it, although we have yet to hear about it from anyone. 

We met her gardener today and he said we are not the only ones that have had problems with her.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

So file a lien and /or do small claims, include the HOA.

HOA's do not like being a party to anything....


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## We Fix Houses (Aug 15, 2007)

Google "Notice of substantial completion"


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## concretemasonry (Dec 1, 2006)

Griz has a great point.

If you are satisfied with the fence and you feel you have met the HOA requirements, file a lien or intent to file a lien if that is required in your jurisdiction.

That will leave her fighting the HOA and their approvals of other existing fences and your expertise.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

CharlieAaron said:


> Payment was supposed to be a simple pay in full at the end as it was only supposed to take 4-5 days and we've never experienced this before. We don't have any clauses about attorney fees or disputes but we are quickly learning what else needs to be in the contract.
> 
> The punch list is great. What happens, though, when someone wants to correct your work while you are still working on it? That's been part of the delay is that she is making corrections in the middle of the work. We are only now at the end of the job.


Tell her if you are not paid by such and such a date you will file a lien and pursue legal action. The judge will decide what is acceptable. And as others have mentioned, notify the HOA that they will be named in the law suit. That may get the fire going...


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## CharlieAaron (May 9, 2017)

griz said:


> So file a lien and /or do small claims, include the HOA.
> 
> HOA's do not like being a party to anything....


If we include the HOA, does that mean we were supposed to give them a right to lien notice as well? What would that even mean for them, anyway-- they would be legally obligated to pay for her fence as well?

Also, would that potentially hurt our relationship with the HOA or would it be understood as just the standard of business for getting payment? They have been very friendly to work with and we would like to keep working in the community.


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## dutchroots2 (Sep 20, 2016)

Maybe she's just lonely.


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## Anthill (Mar 23, 2013)

First of all, show us some pictures so 'WE' can approve it! If 'WE' think it's acceptable, (which I don't doubt we will) then learn to use the term "industry standard". It doesn't mean that everything is 110% perfect but it's built to a generally accepted level of quality. That probably won't get you paid this time but it might help you sleep at night.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

CharlieAaron said:


> Yeah, she checked out the other fences and liked them. When we told her today that she is the only one who has had problems, she said (and I quote), "When you say that, it sounds like you are singling me out, and I take it personally." Then she tells us "other" neighbors have had problems and they have talked to her at length about it, although we have yet to hear about it from anyone.
> 
> We met her gardener today and he said we are not the only ones that have had problems with her.


I guess my immediate response would have been along the lines of....
_*
"That's extremely odd, and the reason I say that is, as you yourself have personally experienced, we do our best to make sure that our customers are happy, still coming out to your house a month later without being paid yet mind you, and we've haven't heard anything from any other of our customers in this community that anyone was not happy. The fact that the HOA has signed off on them all, makes it all the more strange. 

So today is your day to provide your final list of the things you're saying you're not happy with (be sure to document them with pics) and as long as they are outside industry standards (if they aren't, now is the time to temper her expectations), we will be back to address them when a board member of the HOA is there to inspect it as well since you've stipulated that. Once they've had a chance to inspect it that day and signed off on it, we'll be expecting payment in full at that time. We'll be in contact with the HOA to arrange a day that works for everyone's schedule. All I need from you is your FINAL list and three days that are good for you."*_​



You've now boxed her in and removed all her excuses. If she balks now, you know she wasn't planning on paying you. If she has the gall to attempt a discount, stand firm, and simply explain to her that you were contracted to do the fence, using these materials, and had opportunity to view existing clients work and that you've gone above and beyond to ensure she was happy. Explain that you'd hate to be put in the position of having to file a lien to ensure your contract is fulfilled but fr customer who don't pay, that is your only option. 

Stop being afraid of her, call her out on her BS and get your money...


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## Unger.const (Jun 3, 2012)

Hit her in the ego!

Tell it sounds like you can not please her so you and the guys (have a bunch standing by the truck) will tear down all the boards and haul them off only leaving the post. While you go around to all the neighbors telling them you had to repo her fence and so now with all these great fence boards you can make any repairs to their fence that she said people told her they were not happy with. But your going to feel like an idiot asking all her neighbors about the the gossip. And just tell her your glad you don't live there because alot of these neighbors love to gossip.

Bet she writes a check on the spot.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

CharlieAaron said:


> If we include the HOA, does that mean we were supposed to give them a right to lien notice as well?
> 
> *Yes, absolutely.*
> 
> ...


The HOA needs an education and can pressure owners to pay.
Keep it professional & friendly with HOA and you will look like the good guys.


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## FrankSmith (Feb 21, 2013)

Why are they measuring the fence boards and did they find any that they thought where not the right measurement.


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## Driftweed (Nov 7, 2012)

I get this ALOT on bathtubs. People come in, turn the freaking flashlight on their cell phone on and hold it an INCH away from the surface. It drives me insane! Next thing ya know, your nonstop fixing imaginary crap.

You have to eventually make a stand. The punch list is the best way to accomplish that. As long as you are bending to please these types of people they will keep complaining. You are rewarding this behavior by repeatedly going back.

Be polite, but make a stand and ask for payment. If after the punch list, they keep finding stuff to refuse payment, remind them they had their chance to complain and it has passed. Let them know the repercussions of non-payment. Sometimes, that will motivate them. But if it doesn't, follow through the collection process.

It sucks when customers make you go down this path.


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## SectorSecurity (Nov 26, 2013)

Are you replacing the fence for the HOA or the home owner?

I lived in an HOA and our fence and roof was covered by the HOA when I need either fixed I called the HOA and they dealt with and paid the contractors I didn't have a say in it or have to pay anything.


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## NYgutterguy (Mar 3, 2014)

She sounds like one in another thread. A total cu#%


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