# hanging drywall



## jhcontracting (Jan 10, 2009)

Question: I went by a job site yesterday to check on things. The drywall hangers were there. They were hanging drywall by nailing the drywall along the edges, and then screwing it everywhere else. Is this a good method of hanging drywall. I thought screws were always preferred over nails.
JH Contracting


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

jhcontracting said:


> Question: I went by a job site yesterday to check on things. The drywall hangers were there. They were hanging drywall by nailing the drywall along the edges, and then screwing it everywhere else. Is this a good method of hanging drywall. I thought screws were always preferred over nails.
> JH Contracting


Nails are fine, nothing wrong with using nails and or screws.


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## bert0168 (Jan 28, 2008)

I like to nail the edges (ring shanks) and screw the field.

Seems to hang faster that way.


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

No nails in the field is what I was always told.

Edges, ok, field bad.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

shanekw1 said:


> No nails in the field is what I was always told.
> 
> Edges, ok, field bad.


There are millions of houses built hanging drywall long before screws and ring shank nails came out with no problems, why would nails in the field now be a bad idea?


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## shanekw1 (Mar 20, 2008)

bwalley said:


> There are millions of houses built hanging drywall long before screws and ring shank nails came out with no problems, why would nails in the field now be a bad idea?


I'm no drywaller, just did as I was told at the time.:thumbsup:

Now it is just the way I do it.

Less chance of a screw ever popping its head out.


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

Most "nail pops" that customers pay me to fix are just that....nail pops. 

Screws do pop too from time to time. Just not nearly as frequently as nails.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Nail pops and screw pops are not because of the fastener failing, it is due to improper installation or mudding.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

bwalley said:


> Nail pops and screw pops are not because of the fastener failing, it is due to improper installation or mudding.


Really? So the framing never changes size as it dries out after the building is closed up and occupied?


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Really? So the framing never changes size as it dries out after the building is closed up and occupied?


Will a screw stop this from happening?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

No, though I've seen far fewer screw pops than nail pops. My point was that they don't always happen due to substandard installation techniques.


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## vandyandsons (Dec 23, 2008)

Honestly, maybe 1/10 "nail pops" that I deal with are screws coming loose.

I have to believe that using screws is the right way. Screws just hold up better.

Here in Chi-town, production rockers nail their angles and screw the field, OCD rockers screw everything, and hacks nail everything. That's not a dig, thats just how they do it here.:thumbup:

The one thing I know for sure is that you cannot blame a taper for nail pops or screw pops.


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## JKBARR127 (Jan 13, 2010)

one of the buildings were doing a renovation in has some old walls w nailed boards. every time we see a nail that has popped we tap it in and then the one above pops and it does this the whole length of the stud behind it. REAL PITA


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## Axecutioner-B (Jan 28, 2010)

I have demoed plenty of walls that had nails on the edges & screws in the "field" (this is a new term to me but i like it), i seen no problems with them years later. I imagine that with 1 or 2 guys hanging & 1 guy screwing (depending on the type of building) things go pretty fast just tacking it in to place until the screw gun comes to finish the job,,, makes sense to me.

I think i would feel better if the ceilings were all screws tho, if i was installing the drywall that is.

Which brings up another question that the OP could've asked:
Is it ok to nail the edges & screw the field (i still love saying this now) as standard practice, when we are talking about ceilings?


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

*Best way to hang drywall - Nails or screws, both?? Answer*

Great discussion men!

I spoke about this point with my structural engineer last week. His answer to me is that the shear strength of a wall is increased by 30 + percent if the dry wall is nailed @ 7" centers along the perimeter. Dry wall adds so much strength to the home and this added strength can be lost by using screws.

This extra sheer strength is over the top and a walls strength is meet by standard framing and exterior sheathing. If you only need roofing nails to gain 30 - 40 percent sheer strength and the down side is a few nail pops - why not???

I have added extra blocking and a wack of Strong tie strap to increase my homes "Shake and Hold" properties. My girls and I spent an afternoon pounding extra nails preparing for the "BIG ONE".

I'll add this nails in my home, simple insurance and added safety.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> If you only need roofing nails to gain 30 - 40 percent sheer strength and the down side is a few nail pops - why not???


Whut? :blink:

What the heck do roofing nails have to do with hanging drywall? Man, I hope you're having a good evening!


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

bwalley said:


> Nail pops and screw pops are not because of the fastener failing, it is due to* improper installation* or mudding.


I am ot a rocker by trade. But since no one else by that title has responded, I will pipe in here. Not that some who have responded have not hung more rock than me ( not saying a lot ), I have to partially agree with this statement since sometimes rock may not be completely against the studs when nailed or screwed, paper may be broken from a nail or screw being driven too deep. Some may even work the edges too much before nailing or screwing the field leaving a slight bulge in the field that can't really be pushed against the studs or ceiling joists properly after the edges are anchored. What little rock I have done, I like to start in the field a smuch as possible and work my way out to the edges. Sometimes on the walls, I might start high, and work my way down keeping any bulge pushed out as I push the rock against the wall studs.
Also, are some nailpops not caused by moisture in the wood studs/joists?

When I come across a nail pop and get the nail out, I will either drive the nail back in and place a new nail to over the old nail, or I will put a screw near the old nail/screw.

I have not hung a lot of rock, relatively speaking, but I have had to fix a few nailpops and thought I would comment on the subject. 

Now I will :shutup:.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

I've hung train car loads of drywall in my life. :w00t: Early days glue/nail, and no glue/double nail,then it was screw ceilings only, next it was srew everything. Can't remember the last time I saw a hanger with nails.

Wonder what my thumb would look like if I was nailing all these years. Thanks for the memory of my waffle head hatchet I use to use.:laughing:

Most of the pop problems I repair are due to these things. Walls/ceiling not flat,high or low truss/stud. Wet PT on exterior walls dries and shrinks. And my fvorite is the hanger that is super fast.........like 5 screws in 3 seconds who does not actually sink the screw into the stud but it does recess into the board appearing to be in properly.

Now for the OP.......Nothing wrong with nailing the edges and screwing the feild.


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## Muddauber (Nov 2, 2007)

JohnFRWhipple said:


> Great discussion men!
> 
> I spoke about this point with my structural engineer last week. His answer to me is that the shear strength of a wall is increased by 30 + percent if the dry wall is nailed @ 7" centers along the perimeter. Dry wall adds so much strength to the home and this added strength can be lost by using screws.
> 
> ...



If you want to add sheer strength, use drywall glue.It helps to make the entire envelope a composite section.

I have no problem using a few (cup head) drywall nails with a drywall hatchet. Not (flat head) roofing nails with a framing hammer.:shutup:


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

*Which type of nail to use.*

I mentioned roofing nails and this is creating a stir. let me double check the drawings today and get back on the exact nail. I was sure he said roofing nail but we discussed a ton of things.

Roofing nails, ring shanks or whatever the drawings in my home renovation spec nails along the perimeter when hanging drywall.

I will check and report back.


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

UALocal1Plumber said:


> We're doing residential here with cold rolled framing. It's faster, cheaper, and with less material culling. And with the 12 guage exterior walls, panel assemblies can be trucked in welded and braced.
> 
> I was responding to your question about lumber movement, and recommending that steel framing be used more often to prevent these drywall problems.
> 
> ...


Keith, I apoligive if I offended you. I am a bit touchy, cause so many union guys have jumped me. 

I agree that metal is THE answer to so many of our problems in drywall. However, I get into ALOT of these "truss-uplift" posts, cause truss manufactuers have got their engineers to "propaganda" set their "engeneering" specs, to state, that you should not attach any non-load-bearing walls to their trusses. sounds good, but its like them can openers, that work on tv, but not when you get em home. So the problem in wood framing, truss-uplift, is not the framing, but the fact that the house is NOT attached to the roof system, therefore, meaning anytime the house moves, the drywall cracks!!!

Ask yourself this, If the house is framed in metal studs, but the roof is wooden trusses, and they are not attached to the walls, and the hurricane comes through, whats gonna happen???

Peace Bro, some of my best friends are die hard union guys


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

UALocal1Plumber said:


> Metal studs don't shrink.
> 
> In ten years of construction I haven't seen a wood 2x4 except for form bracing. Interior, exterior, load bearing and partition walls are all cold rolled steel members.
> 
> ...


Where are you located that steel is cheaper than wood?


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## UALocal1Plumber (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm in NYC. . . construction materials are still all around cheaper than they have been in years.

Remember that you have to deal with culling lumber off a delivery. With every supplier it's different. For example, I've heard that from big box stores the number of bad members can be as high as 40%. My local lumber yard assures me that theirs is only 10%. With steel, it is 0%. 

So right there as long as the price of steel is within 10% of the dimensional that you're buying, the price levels out.

Then there's the tremendous labor savings. From distributing a lighter material (more pieces on a pushcart) to cutting with a pair of klenks (no electric saws) to just being able to grab a piece and go (instead of examining for crooks and bows) the men work much more efficiently. 

As I said earlier, if you're putting together a structure with rated wall assemblies, you can have the sections trucked in to you by the manufacturer and swung into place with a boom truck. Talk about labor savings.

I just dug out some invoices. Fir studs are about $3.10/piece right now. 3-5/8" x 8' x 20ga metal studs are $2.60/piece. These are pick piece prices from the commercial lumber yard. I normally don't buy large quantity, so I can't talk about bulk pricing. But after seeing how well a building goes together with cold rolled, I'll probably end up building my own house out of the stuff one day.

Keith


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

UALocal1Plumber said:


> I'm in NYC. . . construction materials are still all around cheaper than they have been in years.
> 
> Remember that you have to deal with culling lumber off a delivery. With every supplier it's different. For example, I've heard that from big box stores the number of bad members can be as high as 40%. My local lumber yard assures me that theirs is only 10%. With steel, it is 0%.
> 
> ...


THe labor prices of loading a cart with materials, or carrying materials around a job are a union issue. Scabs like us, don't EVER consider these things. Sorry if that offends you


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

> Then there's the tremendous labor savings. From distributing a lighter material (more pieces on a pushcart) to cutting with a pair of klenks (no electric saws) to just being able to grab a piece and go (instead of examining for crooks and bows) the men work much more efficiently.


Keith, what about all the structural walls? You can't cut them with a pair of anything. Most guys here use abrasive track saws, dry-cut saws or circular saws. Plus they get pretty heavy.

How about the added cost to the plumber and electrician who has to use expensive boxes, MC or wire/tube protectors? 

Prices must be a lot different, we frame mostly with spruce and 8 footers are about 1.90 to 2 bucks CND. The thin metal studs are at-least 4 dollars...so twice the price. The structural ones are where you really pay the big dollar.

Don't get me wrong I think metal is absolutely fantastic. BUT I still just can't see a steel house being cheaper to frame them wood.....


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

UALocal1Plumber said:


> I'm in NYC. . . construction materials are still all around cheaper than they have been in years.
> 
> Remember that you have to deal with culling lumber off a delivery. With every supplier it's different. For example, I've heard that from big box stores the number of bad members can be as high as 40%. My local lumber yard assures me that theirs is only 10%. With steel, it is 0%.
> 
> ...


You are paying more for wood than I do, but your steel stud prices are quite a bit cheaper than what I am paying, I can't even get 25 ga steel studs that cheap.


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## UALocal1Plumber (Jun 19, 2009)

Capt-Sheetrock said:


> THe labor prices of loading a cart with materials, or carrying materials around a job are a union issue. Scabs like us, don't EVER consider these things. Sorry if that offends you



I don't get it. . . I'm talking about SAVING labor. That's something that most union guys don't want to hear. For example, Allied Trades Carpenters in NYC have to handle their own material. Laborers can't touch the stuff without there being a problem. It's in the contracts. Anyway, that means a local 45 carpenter has to be paid about 65 bucks an hour - compared to a laborer who's paid about 40 bucks an hour, to handle material. 

So what I've said is essentially, I want to take man hours away from union carpenters by being able to load more material onto a cart to shake it onto the floors. 

Is that pro union? No, it's called efficient coordinating. 

Unless your labor prices are so dirt cheap that doubling install times only marginally affect the cost of the finished product, I KNOW that you're concerned about labor cost. Everyone is.

Keith 

PS. Why would you use the word scab to describe yourself? It's not a word we use around here. We just call guys "union" and "non-union".


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

UALocal1Plumber said:


> I don't get it. . . I'm talking about SAVING labor. That's something that most union guys don't want to hear. For example, Allied Trades Carpenters in NYC have to handle their own material. Laborers can't touch the stuff without there being a problem. It's in the contracts. Anyway, that means a local 45 carpenter has to be paid about 65 bucks an hour - compared to a laborer who's paid about 40 bucks an hour, to handle material.
> 
> So what I've said is essentially, I want to take man hours away from union carpenters by being able to load more material onto a cart to shake it onto the floors.
> 
> ...


I guess i use the word scab, cause in 1974, right out of high school, I joined the IBEW, apprentice program. A little after of a year, I realized just how much I was opposed to the union and their outlook about work. I made the decision to be a pure capitalist and not lobby or extort prices . 

You mentioned that some are "not allowed" to handle certain things. That does not compute, outside of the brotherhood.

As a non-union guy, I expect and trust the market to "find" the price of everything. I live below the mason-dixon line, and NO-BODY makes $40/hr here, not even supers or owners. Maybe the union guys do, but they don't get any jobs here.

I know i sound antagonistic, but I'm not trying too. There is SUCH a differance in the mind set of a union and non union worker, that it is almost impossible to even have a conversation about the logistics of it all.

Peace Bro


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

"THe labor prices of loading a cart with materials, or carrying materials around a job are a union issue. Scabs like us, don't EVER consider these things. Sorry if that offends you"

Cap'n you union bashing again ?? so, below the mason-dixon line no one earns $40-$50 per hour ? Businesses down south don't care about saving time on labor ? That's ridiculous. I know I know, you're a CAPITALIST.....that earns apprentice wages by NYC standards. How ironic. It's very capitalist to let a boss walk all over you, and pay you crap. Do you think the owners of those union construction companies are capitalists ? No one is forcing them to pay union wages, they are free to go work on non union projects. Union projects are profitable for them. The difference is, they are profitable for the employees as well. 

NOW, there is no structural value to sheetrock. I don't use nails, but nails, when used properly, will hold just fine. I prefer 100% screws. The fact is, nails are going the way of the vinyl record, or even the CD. No one is really using them much anymore, and they will become obsolete. (or they should) Eventually some new jack will come along and tell me screws are ancient.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

d-rock said:


> NOW, there is no structural value to sheetrock.


Wrong, I've seen sheetrock nailing specs on shear schedules plenty of times.


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

KennMacMoragh said:


> Wrong, I've seen sheetrock nailing specs on shear schedules plenty of times.


Great, so you go ahead and rely on it for that.:whistling


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

d-rock said:


> Great, so you go ahead and rely on it for that.:whistling


I rely on what the plans tell me, which can be shear panels for drywall and sheathing. What is your point? When someone hands me a set of plans should I re-engineer it?


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## FOR THOSE ABOUT (Dec 18, 2008)

Nice to see everyone getting along and that this thread came back around to the nail vs screw issue. I still have nails in my pouch and use them. Nice to put a few in up top when tacking off. Anyone remember "HEATERS" can't find them anymore. 

YANKEES SUCK


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

d-rock;913099 NOW said:


> Very wrong. You just don't know what it is. It's used by engineers often.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JohnFRWhipple (Oct 20, 2009)

*Interesting observation*

I find it interesting that most of the people confirming the nails that my structural engineer spec'd all live on the left coast.

I'm sure this is not by chance.

The shear strength of a gypsum/dry wall wall is very strong, just not as strong as a wall build with 1/2" plywood exterior sheathing.

Google "Light Shear Wall" and you will find dozens of studies on the strength. I don't like the research showing when the %^&* hits the fan the shear strength drops rapidly.

I past my framing inspection with flying colours two days ago and was informed that my old 2"x4" walls where not allowed to be just insulated as is. I was given the option of furring out the walls or using 2lb spray foam to reach a R20.

So if I switch to 2lb spray foam in my main floor's 2"x4" stud walls I am going to further strengthen the shear ratings. If I strap some walls on the diagonal, and reinforce the point loads and under my doors and windows the house is over built. I feel after all my reading on this subject that the process of nailing drywall for it's shear strength is something I would do as a last resort. I think I would ask my structural engineer for other options.

I bought a ton of strapping and extra tie downs and spent under $400.00 on all this metal. Seeing my point loads strapped and tied into the floor below to me looks so heavy duty and I personally will sleep better knowing it's there and I'm not depending on just my homes framing to help.

I still will nail the drywall where I can, spending more time on the interior walls that have no plywood and because of my efforts on the exterior walls, shear walls and point loads will install drywall to these walls as usual.


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## Bummie (May 11, 2007)

bwalley said:


> Nail pops and screw pops are not because of the fastener failing, it is due to improper installation or mudding.


So all these years I have been dealing with nail pops it was a shortage of mud that was the problem. Who knew!!!!!


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## Capt-Sheetrock (Aug 8, 2007)

d-rock said:


> "THe labor prices of loading a cart with materials, or carrying materials around a job are a union issue. Scabs like us, don't EVER consider these things. Sorry if that offends you"
> 
> Cap'n you union bashing again ?? so, below the mason-dixon line no one earns $40-$50 per hour ? Businesses down south don't care about saving time on labor ? That's ridiculous. I know I know, you're a CAPITALIST.....that earns apprentice wages by NYC standards. How ironic. It's very capitalist to let a boss walk all over you, and pay you crap. Do you think the owners of those union construction companies are capitalists ? No one is forcing them to pay union wages, they are free to go work on non union projects. Union projects are profitable for them. The difference is, they are profitable for the employees as well.
> 
> NOW, there is no structural value to sheetrock. I don't use nails, but nails, when used properly, will hold just fine. I prefer 100% screws. The fact is, nails are going the way of the vinyl record, or even the CD. No one is really using them much anymore, and they will become obsolete. (or they should) Eventually some new jack will come along and tell me screws are ancient.


 I might make apprentices wages compared to NY, so what. I live in the south. So whats the point in compareing these things??? My entire months fixed liabilites are less than 700.00/mth(bet you can't rent a house where you live for 375.00/mth). So making apprentices prices, 1000 to 1200 per week. You feel I'm living in poverty??? Okay, so be it. You are entitled to your opimion (a non-union idea):clap:


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## william2010 (Apr 10, 2010)

nails and screws are best, but when the walls shake nails get loose. screws dont


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Capt-Sheetrock said:


> I might make apprentices wages compared to NY, so what. I live in the south. *So whats the point in compareing these things???* ........... So making apprentices prices, 1000 to 1200 per week. You feel I'm living in poverty??? Okay, so be it. You are entitled to your opimion.......:clap:


:thumbsup:

Apples to oranges.


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## UALocal1Plumber (Jun 19, 2009)

Actually $1,000 to $1,200 per week is pretty good no matter where you are. . . Where I work I earn about $1,700 per week. But gas tolls and commuting are about $450 a month, my mortgage is $2,200 for a small house. . . truth be told I'll bet the captain enjoys a higher quality of life than a lot of people in Queens.

Keith


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