# My fault or the granite guy's?



## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

awidmeyer said:


> Why call it a drainer if it isn't sloped and doesn't drain? Sounds more like a collector and why would someone want that? Calling it a drainer is misleading, "Sorry miss X, you didn't actually expect the drainer to drain did you?". I don't see what the point is of going through all that trouble if it isn't sloped to "drain" the water. You may be able to have someone acid etch, then polish a portion of the marble so it drains, you may have to contact a pro marble guy to fix the non-draining drain on cabinets the may or may not be level.


No one called it a drainer when they were discussing it with the customer before the order was placed, it's just what the customer understood she was getting. She wasn't told she was getting it, but she wasn't told explicitly enough, evidently, that she wasn't getting it, and that is where the mistake was made

There's an enormous difference between marble and granite, BTW. Your post is a good example of how people will make there own minds up about things, despite what they may have been told

John


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

john elliott said:


> A lot of the posters here are assuming that the granite slabs are dead flat, on both faces, and that those faces are parallel to each other and that all the slabs are exactly the same thickness- well, this just isn't the case. Granite slabs are nowhere near that perfect.
> 
> Granite installers always have to use shims to get joints level, and the thickness of shims required will often be more than would be needed to cancel out any slight discrepancy in the levelness of the cabinets


???

3cm granite is 3cm thick, it isn't 3.5 cm or 2.8cm.

It might be 3.05 but anything even approaching that and it's time to stop using the cheapest guy in town because you aren't getting a deal you are simply getting what you pay for.:no:


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> ???
> 
> 3cm granite is 3cm thick, it isn't 3.5 cm or 2.8cm.
> 
> It might be 3.05 but anything even approaching that and it's time to stop using the cheapest guy in town because you aren't getting a deal you are simply getting what you pay for.:no:


My 'cheapest guy in town' gets his supplies from exactly the same source ( one that I am familiar with and have visited myself) as the most expensive guys in town. What I said about granite varying stands. Maybe in the US your granite is perfect, (though I suspect that it isn't), but over here we have to work with what we can get.

Your suggestion that I'm only getting what I pay for is typical of what I read on many american forums, that is, the automatic assumption that anything or anybody that is cheaper-- is of lower quality. Well, it ain't necessarily so- I have had granite work done by the most expensive firm in the area, more than once, and it's been absolutely no better than the guys I usually use.
If someone chooses to offer their services at a lower cost while they build up and establish their business, then I and my customers are entitiled to benefit from that

John


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## widco (Jan 16, 2004)

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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

I'd say the testosterone levels are rising. How about a group hug and a circle  

I will agree with John on the fact that many here love the "you get what you pay for" line!

I have been using a granite company that runs half of what many here run. When I posted the facts in a thread many here would not or could not comprehend the fact that it was an identical item at a discounted price. I think it is a reading comprehension problem:whistling


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

john elliott said:


> My 'cheapest guy in town' gets his supplies from exactly the same source ( one that I am familiar with and have visited myself) as the most expensive guys in town. What I said about granite varying stands. Maybe in the US your granite is perfect, (though I suspect that it isn't), but over here we have to work with what we can get.
> 
> Your suggestion that I'm only getting what I pay for is typical of what I read on many american forums, that is, the automatic assumption that anything or anybody that is cheaper-- is of lower quality. Well, it ain't necessarily so- I have had granite work done by the most expensive firm in the area, more than once, and it's been absolutely no better than the guys I usually use.
> If someone chooses to offer their services at a lower cost while they build up and establish their business, then I and my customers are entitiled to benefit from that
> ...


Hey ease up, I see now you are the UK. We are all upset about Tony Blair stepping down, but we will all get over it. Like I said, it didn't realize you were in England, and yes our granite is perfect. What in the hell are you guys doing when you are butting seams? Your edges must look horrible if the edges aren't the same thickness!

I'm not sure why you get so upset over expensive or cheap, but here in the USA we certainly know you get what you pay for, there is no free lunch here.

By the way, I'm not the guy here posting who has a granite installer who is creating drains that he believes will make water run up hill.:blink: I'd defend him to the death if I was you, he sounds like a real craftsman. Like I said before you have to do some soul searching, the guy F'ed up, he should be making it right and doing it like yesterday. Like I also said, it sounds like you need him more than he needs you, so you are going to have to decide whether or how much you want to take it in the shorts for his mistake.


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Hey, Mike, you want me to ease up? and then you follow that request with a couple more digs at me?
Perhaps it you that wants to ease up

If you have a look at post 22 in this thread you will see that it's got nothing to do with water running uphill etc and everything to do with the customer's expectations. If you want to have another dig at me then perhaps you should concentrate on our admitted failure to manage those expectations

John

Oh, BTW, the problem of varying thcknesses of grantie, and seams, thats what the shims are for. They shim one or other side of the joint until the joint is level. I'm a little surprised you didn't know that as I have read about this stuff on American websites


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

John, short of taking the counter top up, can you consider a compromise?

Can you have a nice piece of marble or man-made stone fashioned into a low profile drainboard that will actually drain water back to the sink? She can set her strainer on that. It doesn't meet any one's pre-job expectations, but it does solve the problem for your client and keeps the counter top in place.


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Double-A said:


> John, short of taking the counter top up, can you consider a compromise?
> 
> Can you have a nice piece of marble or man-made stone fashioned into a low profile drainboard that will actually drain water back to the sink? She can set her strainer on that. It doesn't meet any one's pre-job expectations, but it does solve the problem for your client and keeps the counter top in place.



That's a great suggestion, AA, and one that I will start looking into right away, thanks

John


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

Hmm, seems to me the whole thing started because "draining" area means something different to english than it does here in the USA. I mean, I understood what he was talking about, it's a drain area commonly used to dry dishes without a stench since the air is able to pass under them. Basically, i'm not sure what the exact laws are in the area you are john, but I DO know that marble is always slightly off a bit, and if it's not level it's the granite installers problem. AA's suggestion would be worthwhile, but any good english lawyer would tear the granite installers a new one.


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## Nick H (Nov 13, 2005)

John, another Brit here, I can see that its entirely a problem with what the customer "thought" she was getting and I have to say that I have similarly recently done a kitchen where the customer had the granite done by their own man, nothing to do with me, and the area around the belfast sink is exactly as you describe. As far as I can tell the granite guys considered that to be pretty well standard practise. The HO is perfectly happy with it. I reckon you might just have one of "those" customers.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

It sounds like its a systemic problem with the trade. I would suggest anyone doing or offering this type of product explain that it is a decorative feature only, not a truly functional one.

Just search the Internet for 'countertop drainboard' and you'll find several pictures of this problem being advertised as a feature. Once again, the folks in marketing are selling pie in the sky to the misinformed public at large. No offence intended to any of our members in marketing.


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

I have friends who are contractors that rib me because I use very detailed and usually long contracts. They don't have tons of legalise, just tons of details about said job. Pages sometimes. Instances like this is why, I tell them. An extra couple hours at the very beginning can save so much on the back end. Saying it with words isn't good enough, I don't know how much of what I just told someone actually got processed and understood, and rarely do I get asked to explain it.

It's amazing how often a customer has looked over the contract and says "oh, so this is for only 2 colors and 2 coats, I had 16 different colors for accents walls picked out" or something like that. 

Small miscommunications are the root of most unhappy customers I believe. 

"I thought you meant this", "no I meant that" now someone is unhappy.

Wack


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## DelW (Jul 7, 2005)

As I see it the bottom line is the customer isn't sastified, and there's been a pissin match goin on here for the last 3 days. I'd be interested to hear what kind of solution John has come up with to make the customer happy. Sounds to me like its the "not my job syndrome" meanwhile the customer is left hangin. But hey, I'm just a painter, what do I know:laughing:


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

After looking at your (very nice) website, I see what the design is and how the customer could be confused. Those drainage slots are not really a proper drainage area, and I would hesitate to label them as such. The top picture, as near as I can tell, shows what is considered to be a drainage area. Also, by featuring the granite tops, you are leading the customer to believe that it is within your scope of work, in my opinion.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

wackman said:


> I have friends who are contractors that rib me because I use very detailed and usually long contracts. They don't have tons of legalise, just tons of details about said job.
> 
> Wack


This gets a bit off the topic, and perhaps is a good subject for the business forum, but I agree with Wack.

Some folks are shy of contracts, and the bigger ones tend to send folks running. But, if you can get your client to actually sit down and go over a contract, especially the scope of work, then you'll both be happier. 

No one is disappointed when they get exactly what they expect.


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## lxdollarsxl (Apr 13, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> Hey ease up, I see now you are the UK. We are all upset about Tony Blair stepping down, but we will all get over it. Like I said, it didn't realize you were in England, and yes our granite is perfect. What in the hell are you guys doing when you are butting seams? Your edges must look horrible if the edges aren't the same thickness!
> 
> Well being a brit in the USA i dont think the granite here, from what ive seen is perfect. :whistling
> 
> ...


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## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

DelW said:


> As I see it the bottom line is the customer isn't sastified, and there's been a pissin match goin on here for the last 3 days. I'd be interested to hear what kind of solution John has come up with to make the customer happy. Sounds to me like its the "not my job syndrome" meanwhile the customer is left hangin. But hey, I'm just a painter, what do I know:laughing:


This is what I said in post 8-

"and most likely will be offering the lady a partial refund . I've already agreed with the granite guy that we will split this 50/50."

John


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

lxdollarsxl said:


> As for Tony Blair we can take him or leave him - hes just another political figure.:no:


Best political figure you guys have had since the 1940s.


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## copusbuilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Best political figure you guys have had since the 1940s.


Hmmm..You forgot about the Iron Lady... aka Maggie Thatcher:thumbup:


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