# Charging for estimates..Who and How?



## Fishhook (Feb 1, 2013)

Maybe this topic has been covered in another thread,though I haven't seen it yet,I'm still kinda green here. I used to estimate My side jobs for free,but since I went out on my own I've realized that these things take valuable,precious time. In My neck of the woods,the "free estimate" line is thrown around too much. I've worked out some unit pricing for run-of-the-mill stuff (i.e. $XX.00/square shingles or $XX.00/sq.ft. of decking) But I usually get called for unique situations and custom builds...which take time to figure out. I've had way too many tire-kickers that hire the cheaper guy,and I'm out a job that I spent a couple hours figuring out. So now I think I'm going to tell folks that I show up look at the project,and give a verbal ball-park guesstimate for free,and a more comprehensive estimate is available for X amount of dollars,where X dollars gets credited towards the project if I get hired. Does anyone else do this? Should I charge,and not credit the job? If So how should I go about selling the idea? I can't afford to keep doing estimates for free!


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## tkrrox (May 15, 2010)

i have thought about doing a retainer also for projects they don't have plans for...meaning me meeting with them then coming up with a design.
if the job is done the retainer will be deducted from price if not it's my service fee.


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## CScalf (Dec 18, 2008)

I give out ballparks over the phone or email if possible. If I have to leave the office and come look at a project and give them a quote then I charge for it, and they know this before hand. Some refuse and some don't. I refuse to work for free. If I am putting together pricing for someone that isn't going to hire me I should be compensated for my time.:thumbsup:


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## Steve57 (Feb 17, 2013)

Do you credit the fee to the owner if they hire you?


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## CScalf (Dec 18, 2008)

Steve57 said:


> Do you credit the fee to the owner if they hire you?


No. If you credit it you are still doing it for free and I don't work for free.


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

I don't give ballparks to anybody for anything. If I answer the phone and someone wants an about price, I tell them I'm the janitor and can schedule an appointment with the sales staff, they charge $25.00.

While it may limit the amount of calls you do, the percentage of sales increases, a lot. I also tell them that if they do happen to get other "free" quotes, to fax them to me and we'll be glad to price them. These have increased a lot. I quit doing free estimates in 2009 when I called a prospect back and he said "I just wanted to see if my uncle was ripping me off". Buy charging for the estimate the customer now wants to be sure that both of them are present, whereas before it didn't seem to matter. We also get the attention of the prospects who dedicate their time to the estimate rather than "seeming" to be bothered because you are there.

It's Jan - Feb in Detroit, frozen ground, snow on the ground, we have done 6 decks so far have 8 more to start and are getting busier and busier as the season progresses. We have had 2 people so far in 2013not want their estimate when told of the charge. In April - Aug I'll pick up an extra 800-1,000 a week just for estimates. It pays for all the costs of a vehicle to be on the road.

We do credit the "cost" when they buy.


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## tedanderson (May 19, 2010)

The way I figure, working for "free" is sometimes chalked up to the cost of doing business. I can kind of get a feel for who's really serious and who is not when I meet with them and sell them on ME more so than my service.

A tire kicker will usually get less than a few minutes of my time and I'll probably estimate a price to be a few hundred dollars higher just so I don't have to entertain any back and forth inquiries. Although I admit that there have been times when someone who I thought was a tire kicker cut me the deposit check on the spot.


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## Italian75 (Aug 14, 2011)

*Charging for estimates*

We actually charge for drawings for our decks and do it from $29 up to $100. These are for simple projects but they get a 3d drawing and so far worked quite well. For a large deck or project we sign a design agreement. We charge as little as $600 up to $1800 depending on the size and the scope. For a garage or an addition you need plans to get an accurate price together. They are able to get a full set of plans drawn up that our county ready and if they choose to move on with his another contractor they can do so but in my experience they always go forward with us.

A good story I worked with an older gentleman years ago and we went on an estimate together for the first time and the customer said to him when we got there "This is a free estimate Right" and response was "Well for one of us it is" I feel this is so true. We almost always go out and do an estimate and before we get there we direct them to our website so they can purchase 3d drawings about 60% of the time they purchase drawings. Now if they don't we are not fully there yet to tell them we will not do them for free but if they do not make the purchase we never leave a drawing on site. Some people get mad and I say I guess we are not the right company for you.

Early on in business my partner went to a guys house felt him out and he was a refferal and he verbally said he want to move forward with us. We proceeded to get a drawing done for backyard patio deck stairs overall project of $130,000. The drawings cost us $1,100. My partner went back to the house showed the homeowner and he said he need to move some money around. Next thing you know we could not get him on the phone and about 2 months later we noticed the project started. Never do anything without a design agreement.


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## MCCarpentry (Feb 13, 2013)

Depends on the job. If it only take 15 min to figure out a price on a deck let em have their "free" estimate or charge for your time in your overhead and profit. For bigger jobs you can give them a foot-in-the-door price and make your money on change orders. There are several other things you can do to make up for your "free" estimates. I do all of my proposals and contracts for "free" but I am well compensated for my time in the end.

If you are only doing decks or roofing then you will eventually, or may, have a bidding system set up that is sophisticated enough to charge for x number of miters, stair treads, bench seats,plugs or whatever. Just tailor it to your business, give them a proposal with a comprehensive scope of work, and a price. Provided it is a small job and they don't want to spend the money just move on to the next one. Why should you lower your salary? Sounds more like paying for their project - and I say this to customers, in a friendly way of course.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Here is different spin on it...

When cell phone companies give you a "free" phone,
we all know what the means. 

We are obligated to a plan, and if we cancel the plan, they charge us a cancellation fee.

So it seems that phone wasn't free after all.


I'm not a fan of free estimates, but have done them on smaller repairs.

I usually submit a modest invoice after some detailed design and planning work. If the customer scoffs, then I'm only out the $75 or couple hundred I spent with the project rather than the customer beat me for $5000 later on down the road.

You can actually use the "free estimate" discussion to "qualify" your potential customer.

-Scott


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

This subject has been covered on many threads. There is a difference between an estimate and a quote.

An estimate it just that, a range of numbers, not a specific detailed project quote. You can weed out tire kickers and one's wanting a free design by asking if they have a budget and what that budget may be. 

You should be able to give a free estimate pretty quickly over the phone or in person. And yes even free estimates will cost you, but that is why you put a little in your overhead expenses to cover them.

You should rarely give away design time or detailed quotes for free. You are correct in that regard. If they want a free design, they can go to Home Depot and waste their time to get what they pay for.

My project design fee is $250 min. I tell my potential customers that I will give them a credit on their project when they sign on the dotted line.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

I am by no means a builder anyone should take business advice from, but I have only charged for two bids. Both insurance damage qoutes, and I got both without ever recieving a check for the bid. It was a qualification thing.

I qualify all leads that arent referred by a colleague or client on the phone. Thats good enough for me. 

Not saying I dont like the ideas I have heard on charging for an estimate, just not my style. 

Like rob, we charge for design, although its not $250.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Jaws said:


> I am by no means a builder anyone should take business advice from, but I have only charged for two bids. Both insurance damage qoutes, and I got both without ever recieving a check for the bid. It was a qualification thing.
> 
> I qualify all leads that arent recfered by a colleague or client on the phone. Thats good enough for me.
> 
> ...


I have feeling that a sit down with your architect is more than $250. 

Or the paper the plans are printed on is more than $250.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

TNTSERVICES said:


> I have feeling that a sit down with your architect is more than $250.
> 
> Or the paper the plans are printed on is more than $250.


:laughing:

If it goes through an archy, im not getting a mark up on it.

My dad uses Soft Plan to do design when we do in house design, which is often for remodels or decks and boat docks, even some basic custom homes. 

Im jealous of you guys who can perform design, I cant draw chit. I can build anything that has plans and specs, or even just a design. I can spec loads all day.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Just saw the minimum part , Rob. That is a good place to start, hard to get much for a bathroom or something similar. I was going to ask if the 250 went for additions and bathrooms untill I read the minimum


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

Around here, in the decking business, if we were to banty around "about" prices it would be a for sure quick way to lose the job.
People on the other end just write down the perceived price and make judgements. To survive and thrive it is far better to make a drawing and give a price, other wise you just have to go back and forth and back and forth. 

We don't have that amount of time, if you, the customer are just that needful, one should come to the showroom, where there is more on display than could possibly be discussed @ the home. 

Each prospect gets about 1/2hr- 45 mins. in their house and than on to the next one.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

We dont all have showrooms, Steve. 

If I did I doubt Id have a sample of a 3000 sq ft addition on display........

Also, hard to have a sample of anything "custom". Custom to me is something outside the norm.....


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## killerdecks (Apr 18, 2008)

Showrooms are not designed top show whole pojects, to try that is potless and very frustruating as the HO'S will ask, "well what about this". 

To do one right you would want to show smaller parts of the whole, or show one part and than have design concepts of others available.

Showrooms are and should be geared toards design centers.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

killerdecks said:


> Showrooms are not designed top show whole pojects, to try that is potless and very frustruating as the HO'S will ask, "well what about this".
> 
> To do one right you would want to show smaller parts of the whole, or show one part and than have design concepts of others available.
> 
> Showrooms are and should be geared toards design centers.


Most guys are working out of 600 sq ft or their house.... not all of us can or want a showroom.... my showroom is my past projects. I often take prospective clients to my work


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## MEL (Apr 7, 2007)

I have charged for it a few times but not now. I try to get the prospect to agree to make a yes or no decision, so you could say the price for the free proposal is a decision.

Of course this takes place on the phone; if they are trying to jack me around they won’t even want to set an appointment.


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Fishhook said:


> Maybe this topic has been covered in another thread,though I haven't seen it yet,I'm still kinda green here. I used to estimate My side jobs for free,but since I went out on my own I've realized that these things take valuable,precious time. In My neck of the woods,the "free estimate" line is thrown around too much. I've worked out some unit pricing for run-of-the-mill stuff (i.e. $XX.00/square shingles or $XX.00/sq.ft. of decking) But I usually get called for unique situations and custom builds...which take time to figure out. I've had way too many tire-kickers that hire the cheaper guy,and I'm out a job that I spent a couple hours figuring out. So now I think I'm going to tell folks that I show up look at the project,and give a verbal ball-park guesstimate for free,and a more comprehensive estimate is available for X amount of dollars,where X dollars gets credited towards the project if I get hired. Does anyone else do this? Should I charge,and not credit the job? If So how should I go about selling the idea? I can't afford to keep doing estimates for free!


Spend a couple hours and know your numbers. Roofing is pretty straight forward to price. I mentioned this recently, I went high tech and bought a printer for the truck but lost time with he owners, so it is now all done at the table on triplicates. 

For pricing a simple four column form. 
1. Line item column (Material and labor combined). 
2. Is empty box for quantity (I fill in when I have this measured or counted). 
3. Unit cost per line item.
4. Sub total. 

Add up the sub totals and there it is, along with your material list. 

I do not leave this with he owner if it didn't close, no real desire to share my numbers with the next roofer.

I sit there and show them the costs with nothing to hide and sell the majority, depending on the feel I get from them is the deciding factor if they get to hold the Contract. 

The only number I quote on the phone is the square price before accessories, with this being said it is a fixed number and gets the appointment. 

I only charge for Buyers, Real Estate Agents and Insurance "Ladder Assists". 

My time is only free if I don't sell the job.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Jaws said:


> Most guys are working out of 600 sq ft or their house.... not all of us can or want a showroom.... my showroom is my past projects. I often take prospective clients to my work


Precisely!

and in doing that you have already "qualified" them as a customer, I'm sure.

The OP's intent, (if I may be so bold) was to try and separate himself from the "quick hit", "gimicky" contracting/home service that is out there.

-Scott


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

tenon0774 said:


> Precisely!
> 
> 
> The OP's intent, (if I may be so bold) was to try and separate himself from the "quick hit", "gimicky" contracting/home service that is out there.
> ...


Oh, I thought he was asking if we charged for Estimates. He also mentioned he had prices per square for shingles and sheathing. I think he would be better off to figure prices once and have it on the site visit.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Fishhook said:


> In My neck of the woods,the "free estimate" line is thrown around too much. I've worked out some unit pricing for run-of-the-mill stuff (i.e. $XX.00/square shingles or $XX.00/sq.ft. of decking) *But I usually get called for unique situations and custom builds...which take time to figure out.*


:whistling


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## Fishhook (Feb 1, 2013)

Roofcheck said:


> Spend a couple hours and know your numbers. Roofing is pretty straight forward to price. I mentioned this recently, I went high tech and bought a printer for the truck but lost time with he owners, so it is now all done at the table on triplicates.
> 
> For pricing a simple four column form.
> 1. Line item column (Material and labor combined).
> ...


That's a great way to do it-especially the straight forward work like roofing and siding...and showing the homeowner always helps,i think it lets them know you're not a grifter. You're absolutely right on knowing costs,it's an enormous time saver and you don't look like a deer in the headlights when someone asks you about a job,say, in line at the coffee shop. I am going to charge for custom work and design /build jobs...but knowing unit pricing will wrap up any inquiries on the initial phone conversation/visit for the jobs like roofing,and probably won't charge for those. I appreciate your input as well as everyone elses! Thank You!


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Precisely why a line item list works. Drip Edge, Leak Barrier, Underlayment, step flashing, wall flashing, metal valleys, pipe jacks, ridge vent, hip and ridge, high, steep, trailer loads, decking, and shingles. 

Cut up and complicated is the same as a ranch burner. IMO


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## Roofcheck (Dec 27, 2011)

Fishhook said:


> That's a great way to do it-especially the straight forward work like roofing and siding...and showing the homeowner always helps,i think it lets them know you're not a grifter. You're absolutely right on knowing costs,it's an enormous time saver and you don't look like a deer in the headlights when someone asks you about a job,say, in line at the coffee shop. I am going to charge for custom work and design /build jobs...but knowing unit pricing will wrap up any inquiries on the initial phone conversation/visit for the jobs like roofing,and probably won't charge for those. I appreciate your input as well as everyone elses! Thank You!


 You are welcome.


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## Fishhook (Feb 1, 2013)

Roofcheck said:


> Precisely why a line item list works. Drip Edge, Leak Barrier, Underlayment, step flashing, wall flashing, metal valleys, pipe jacks, ridge vent, hip and ridge, high, steep, trailer loads, decking, and shingles.
> 
> Cut up and complicated is the same as a ranch burner. IMO


True, I find simpler is almost always the best solution...BTW,what's a ranch burner? Just never heard that one before..


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Roofcheck said:


> Cut up and complicated is the same as a ranch burner. IMO


Line item as much as you can.


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## tenon0774 (Feb 7, 2013)

Fish,

Break it down as much as you can.

I believe the original post was about free estimates?

If your doing any more than 2 hours work for research, design, product acquisition or pricing, then you have to charge for that time.

-Scott


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## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

Fishhook said:


> True, I find simpler is almost always the best solution...BTW,what's a ranch burner? Just never heard that one before..


 I may not understand him correctly- but I think he means his per square pricing doesn't vary if the house is "cut up"-with many start/stop points, numerous valleys, numerous small wings/additions
Vs. a Ranch burner which might be a simple 30 square gable roof with no valleys, no chimneys etc.

the ranch burner is pretty much "slap and tack" work that a roofer can burn through pretty quickly.

If I understand him correctly-we price things very differently.

For us-the material costs for 2 roofs might be similar--- but site access, interfering landscaping, cut up roof profile, multiple layers, wood replacement etc. might make one roof 300% more expensive than the other. Also- the more cut up the roof the more flashing and icegaurd we are going to use- so similarly sized roof will have quite different material costs as well.

and I never,ever give anyone a per sq. price for ANYTHING, ever.

Just my way of doing things,
Stephen


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Whenever a prospect asks for a "free estimate" I quickly correct them and say "you mean guesstimate, right?"... when they look at me confused I clarify... 

"Well Mrs. prospect, for any type of job like this, there are a lot of variables ranging from design to materials to whether or not we need electricians or plumbers as part of the project. Based on our experience of doing this X number of years, some customers go for as basic as can be because that is all their budget allows and can between $X and $X amount of dollars, and then there are those that want a little more with added features, and that can fall into a range of $X and $X, then there are those fortunate few where budget is no issue and they just want what they want, and that can range anywhere from $X and up... Where do you think you fall? As you can see, without getting all the details, we're just guessing wouldn't you agree? That's why anyone who comes in here and gives you a "free estimate" is guesstimating their costs and time and will usually just give you a low-ball quote in the beginning to get your business and then change order you to death. 

So what we do is provide a quote, which includes everything you need to know with a complete scope of your project so there's no guess-work involved along with some preliminary drawings and includes everything from start to finish. The only time there is a change order is because you've changed something not because we low-balled you to get in the door with a guesstimate and nickel and dime you to death with change orders. The price you are provided in the quote, along with a detailed scope and drawings it what you pay. This usually takes X amount of time to do it right so you are protected and can feel secure in the knowledge that your job is being executed professionally. We do this for $X, isn't that a great value?..."

If they don't think it's a great value and that a free estimate isn't as good a thing as they thought it is... red flag...


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KAP said:


> Whenever a prospect asks for a "free estimate" I quickly correct them and say "you mean guesstimate, right?"... when they look at me confused I clarify...
> 
> "Well Mrs. prospect, for any type of job like this, there are a lot of variables ranging from design to materials to whether or not we need electricians or plumbers as part of the project. Based on our experience of doing this X number of years, some customers go for as basic as can be because that is all their budget allows and can between $X and $X amount of dollars, and then there are those that want a little more with added features, and that can fall into a range of $X and $X, then there are those fortunate few where budget is no issue and they just want what they want, and that can range anywhere from $X and up... Where do you think you fall? As you can see, without getting all the details, we're just guessing wouldn't you agree? That's why anyone who comes in here and gives you a "free estimate" is guesstimating their costs and time and will usually just give you a low-ball quote in the beginning to get your business and then change order you to death.
> 
> ...


Exactly, couldn't have said it better!:thumbsup:


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## renov8r (Feb 16, 2013)

I do the free estimate thing as well. If I have to go see the same job more then twice for an estimate, then the third time depending on how I am feeling I will tell them that I can't keep going for free and they need to start compensating me for fuel.

I've gone for one job maybe 10 times. Each and everytime there is a little more or a little less work to be done. Same project but depending on finances at the time, they change how much or how little they want to do.


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## cabinetsnj (Jun 10, 2012)

Jaws said:


> :laughing:
> 
> If it goes through an archy, im not getting a mark up on it.
> 
> ...


Maybe you can work on your drawing skills.


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## Donnie D. (Feb 27, 2013)

i recently started my own business..and i am 1 for 5 on getting jobs that i esitimated..one job the guy wanted a written propsal..so i gave he them down to the dollar with a list of all the material and how i would do the job..i spent hours on this..and i didnt get it..so im debating on charging or not for a estimate...

the thing is if i give a ball park esitmate when first meeting the customer i could lose the job if i guesstimate it to high.so im not sure


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Donnie D. said:


> i recently started my own business..and i am 1 for 5 on getting jobs that i esitimated..one job the guy wanted a written propsal..so i gave he them down to the dollar with a list of all the material and how i would do the job..i spent hours on this..and i didnt get it..so im debating on charging or not for a estimate...
> 
> the thing is if i give a ball park esitmate when first meeting the customer i could lose the job if i guesstimate it to high.so im not sure


1 good job out 5 estimates Donnie, its a good start... 

Never split material from labor... give one lump sump, because when you break it up, there is many out there who love to count your money, and no matter what you making, to some you making to much and you will never land a job... 
Make sure you thorough with listing everything you will provide and what you will do. In addition, break up your payment schedule so you stay ahead and not fronting the job...

Other then that do what you been doing and you gonna be OK.
As losing a job... don't worry, there is many ahead you will lose and you will get... You not losing a penny when you don't get one and you not gaining one at the same time... it's called breaking even, so you already on the right start.

Good luck with your New Business:thumbsup:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Donnie D. said:


> i recently started my own business..and i am 1 for 5 on getting jobs that i esitimated..one job the guy wanted a written propsal..so i gave he them down to the dollar with a list of all the material and how i would do the job..i spent hours on this..and i didnt get it..so im debating on charging or not for a estimate...
> 
> the thing is if i give a ball park esitmate when first meeting the customer i could lose the job if i guesstimate it to high.so im not sure


Guesstimating is one quick way to go out of business... you should already KNOW what it's going to cost going in... it's just a matter of plugging in the numbers...


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Donnie D. said:


> i recently started my own business..and i am 1 for 5 on getting jobs that i esitimated..one job the guy wanted a written propsal..so i gave he them down to the dollar with a list of all the material and how i would do the job..i spent hours on this..and i didnt get it..so im debating on charging or not for a estimate...
> 
> the thing is if i give a ball park esitmate when first meeting the customer i could lose the job if i guesstimate it to high.so im not sure


And that's the biggest problem that you have. You didn't give them an estimate, you gave them a detailed quote. Until you learn the difference this will continue to be an issue. An estimate is a best guess on how much it will cost to complete the job. I usually give a range and discuss in detail the options for the project.

I don't spend hours on a quote and not get compensated. I get burned every time. The last one I bid that way ended up nickel and diming me until I fired them.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

KAP said:


> Guesstimating is one quick way to go out of business... you should already KNOW what it's going to cost going in... it's just a matter of plugging in the numbers...


Until they give me a budget or money to do a detailed quote, an estimate is all they get.


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