# new grout problem



## Nelsonson (Oct 4, 2008)

*New grout on new tile install is breaking down also 100% silicone used to seal corners is soft and coming off. Tile was put on with mastic and set for 3 days before grouting. Grout set for 14 days before seal was put on. install is only 2 months old. Cleaning service cleans house weekly. *


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## SCFoxman (Aug 26, 2008)

install in shower w/ mastic = dookie

install on floor w/ tiles larger than 6x6 and mastic = dookie

Where is the install, on what surface, what substrate, size tiles, ceramic porcelain or nat. stone? need more info

Sealing grout does not make the grout impervious, only repellent, and moreso for staining.
Water will still penetrate the grout.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

And by the way....Welcome to the site.


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## Tileworks (Jul 9, 2005)

Nelsonson said:


> *New grout on new tile install is breaking down also 100% silicone used to seal corners is soft and coming off. Tile was put on with mastic and set for 3 days before grouting. Grout set for 14 days before seal was put on. install is only 2 months old. Cleaning service cleans house weekly. *


Well, mastic is useless for just about anything besides a kitchen backsplash. It has no strength to support tiles to be walked on, and if used on tiles larger than about 8x8 inches it may never fully cure (some other factors, such as underlayment, play into this as well).

If in a shower, water will find a way past the sealer, behind the tile, and turn dried mastic back into goo again.

Now again, there may be several factors causing this failure, but it does sound like it will have to be ripped out and re-done properly.

- Bob


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## MattCoops (Apr 7, 2006)

Mastic is NOT allowed in wet areas.
When water comes in contact with mastic it causes the adhesive to become "workable".
So you probably have movement in the tile, which is causing your grout to "break down".


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## detroitMi (Sep 10, 2008)

*Tile*

Is it a shower? a bathroom floor? kitchen floor? Glue {mastik}is not good for wet areas,your tile guy should've known better than that.you might have to rip it off and properly redo it.Get yourself another tile guy.Good luck


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

So Nelson? Are you really a fellow tradesman or do you think by saying so you will have an advantage with a website you don't belong in?

Sounds like a DIY question from someone that didn't research before they jumped.

The whole job is a failure and will have to be removed and done over.


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## andrew cummins (Oct 17, 2008)

what kind of tile is it?Is it in a shower?is there a water proof membrane?when u say mastic is it a powder mastic or a premixed pot type mapei d1 or something similar? i tend not to use premixed mastics in wet areas over membranes and certainly not with porcelain,it is very interesting reading these posts i am from australia and you all certainly seem to know your stuff


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## Tileworks (Jul 9, 2005)

andrew cummins said:


> ...when u say mastic is it a powder mastic or a premixed pot type


What's "powdered mastic"? Is there really such a thing, or are you referring to thinset?

- Bob


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## JamesK (May 2, 2008)

I am not sure what kind of mastic you all have been using but what we have up north I wish was that easy to soften. I have done a few patch jobs that I soaked it in water for days and cant get it to soften (used tile with mastic on it that came from other area that owner had) to use on the patch. Also been using mastic here for years on walls- NOT FLOORS -and never a problem. Of coarse some of it was before cbu and sorry to say but done some plastic tile to. (I'am Old) Iam not sure what has happened to your grout but the way I see it you might have to regrout but not redo the tile.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Just keep in mind that mastics of yesteryear are not the same as today's mastics. The government took all the punch out of those kind of adhesives a few years ago:whistling.


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## TileLady (Apr 8, 2008)

Bud Cline said:


> So Nelson? Are you really a fellow tradesman or do you think by saying so you will have an advantage with a website you don't belong in?
> 
> Sounds like a DIY question from someone that didn't research before they jumped.
> 
> The whole job is a failure and will have to be removed and done over.


Ah, Touche Bud! Or perhaps it's somebody who shouldn't be doing tiling at all. Mastic on a floor!


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

I don't know how many of you get the Jobsite magazine for Floorcoverings, but on the cover they have a picture of two guys setting ceramic tiles directly over plywood, using premix thinset(Mastic)

What message does that send??? WOW!!


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> I don't know how many of you get the Jobsite magazine for Floorcoverings, but on the cover they have a picture of two guys setting ceramic tiles directly over plywood, using premix thinset(Mastic)


That right there is testimony as to how out of sinc the entire flooring industry is. It is no secret that installing tile over plywood can be done but can also be very problematic if not done with some sense of the techniques required.

If one traverses the Internet forums it is also no secret as to the many many failures that have existed when using premixed thinset for most anything.

The manufacturers want their products to be all-things-to-all-people and with the multi-billion dollar DIY market on their fork they will sell anything that makes a task look simple and easy. Professionals don't seem to be a consideration in their thinking, they want the DIY dollars. 

When and if a pro has a failure he knows where to point the finger, but when a DIY experiences a failure they think it was something they did and are willing to accept responsibility. The product manufacturer then goes without fault and continues to rip the unsuspecting customer.

The entire flooring industry is corrupt in so many ways it is hard to comprehend.

When it comes to the magazines their interest is in the advertising dollars so they go to extremes to be politically correct and not necessarily procedurally correct. Facts and reality seldom enter into their thinking process.

Premixed thinset is not thinset at all but simply mastic with some filler in it to stretch the chemicals, add bulk to the product, increase profits, and fool the average user. It is high-dollar sand basically. 

The type of substrate and size and type of tile being used makes a huge difference in the success or failure of a job incorporating premixed thinset but mention of that fact doesn't seem to be a priority to the market-share-grabbing corporations of the industry. In the case of tile over plywood a particular plywood is also required but where is that mentioned with any authority?


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

Have been using tile adhesive for wall tiles no larger than 6" x 6" for ten years now with no problems.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

.......and that would be well within the workable parameters of the product.


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

I just got a call from a client who I did a custom shower installation for within the last year. When I did the job, which included installing a large glass block window, the client was doing his own flooring, vanity, toilet.
I distinctly remember going over the steps with him (trying to be helpful!) - as to how to install his new tile floor.

This is what I suggested: (floor was stripped to sub-floor - area was about 5'x6')
Install concrete board - set in thinset mortor and screwed
Set tile with thinset mortor
Grout 

Customer went to the Orange Store and their EXPERTS sold him the following:

2- sheets of 4x4x1/4" poplar underlay
1- box underlay ring nails
1- bucket of goo (Mastic)
1- bucket of grout (pre-mixed)

After I got off the floor laughing, I asked him how that worked for him!

His reply was priceless!!

It took 2 hours to hammer down the plywood
It took 6 hours to set the tile
It took 6 days for the tiles to set
After Grouting 
It took 6 days for the grout to crack
It took 6 months of nagging from his wife to call me


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

He got his *"Just Deserves"* if you ask me. Especially after your directing him in the right methods to use.


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