# Price or Quality?



## DarrenSlaughter (Jul 16, 2010)

This debate is like snowflakes, each person has a different reason or rationale...and all may be right for them. The trick is, Mike is right, if people didn't think you couldn't do the work, you wouldn't be standing in their living rooms. 

Conversely, If the only way to improve your product is by lowering your price...well, you know what happens there. 

I think Blackbear said it best. There is no reason you can't have an entry-level product or service considering we are in a delicate economy at best. If people want price, you can offer price. If they want add-ons or cross-sells (think McDonalds and supersizing the fries and cross-selling you apple pies) then offer that too. 

I also agree with Mike that quality is used so much that it has become numb to most home owners. The way to overcome that is by having FANTASTIC testimonials and reviews. 

Why? Because in this day and age, what people's peers say about your business mean more than anything your marketing can say about it...and that is coming from a marketing guy!

Good luck!


----------



## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> It's not all marketing. As a pilot I own 2 sets of the high end Bose headsets and nothing in the market comes close. Bose headsets are miles apart from the competition in this market.
> 
> On home stereos you might be right, after all marketing is pretty powerful stuff, but not in the aircraft arena....they are top dog.
> 
> Mike


the headsets i have no idea about. thats way beyond my knowledge. 


marketing is a great thing if done properly. take toll brothers for example. they dont build great houses, the build large, average quality houses with popular brand name materials. the fit and finish looks good enough for most people, and they have a great marketing department. 
they compete with price as their main factor, followed by perceived quality/ value. 
its not so much quality that you try to sell, every contractor is supposed to do quality work. its the value you sell. you have to make it as easy on the client as possible. show them that all they have to do is pick out what they want, and you take care of all the rest. if you can show them that, then they will not mind spending a couple extra $ on you, cause its going to be an enjoyable experience for them when its done.


----------



## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*Problem with your Bose analogy is....*



mc handyman said:


> Over the past five months I have been working with a marketing organization on developing a better understanding of how individuals market/sell their products. In better clarification what we hope to answer is do the majority of individuals (in the service industry) lead with price or quality.
> 
> That is, when you are closing a sale or developing a lead, do you showcase mainly your quality or your price. While it seems obvious that everyone should be leading with quality and allowing the price to be align with the level of quality they offer, we have found thus far that many, especially during the past few recessionary years, have been leading with price- and reflecting that price with a given level of quality.
> 
> ...


 
you have to do a lot more homework to know whether or not Bose makes more profit that their competitors. For all I know, Bose may be in Chapter 11 because their competitors may sell 100 to 1 over Bose and the profit margin on their competitor's units could be 10 times more that Bose's units.

Your answer to your; you want to push 'quality' as hard as you can so your work looks like it is worth 'A MILLION BUCKS' and you want to appear affordable at the same time. Every customer wants the 'best' for an affordable price.


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

A couple more thoughts -

- everyone says they do quality work, very, very, few deliver. I see it all the time.

- I've had quite a few clients who want to spend a lot of money so they can brag to their friends how much something cost them. Go figure.

- I do my best to deliver top drawer work at a "fair" price. That is fair to the client and myself both.

- but I will not lower my quality standards to land a job. They come up to my standards or they can hire the "other" guy. Period.

- the work you leave behind you is your pedigree.


----------



## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

I try and market the hell out of My prices. I'm inexpensive darn rite cheap sometimes, I take PRIDE in being able to offer that and I want everyone to know it. Its on my trailers, signs and truck.. I have been known to low ball, areas and other companies. Eat or be eaten..


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

It has to be both. Price and Quality have to go together. However, quality is expected by the homeowner at any price they receive. They believe the 10k guy produces the same quality as the 20k guy and can't figure out the reason for the price difference.

I think I may be the only one who has installers who properly install ridge-vent. How many guys actually hand nail it? This is something I point out to homeowners.

Since both price and quality are expected, what's the thing you offer that's different?


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Acres said:


> I try and market the hell out of My prices. I'm inexpensive darn rite cheap sometimes, I take PRIDE in being able to offer that and I want everyone to know it. Its on my trailers, signs and truck.. I have been known to low ball, areas and other companies. Eat or be eaten..


WTF? Really? Come on.


----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

katoman said:


> - but I will not lower my quality standards to land a job. They come up to my standards or they can hire the "other" guy. Period.


:thumbup:


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> It has to be both. Price and Quality have to go together. However, quality is expected by the homeowner at any price they receive. They believe the 10k guy produces the same quality as the 20k guy and can't figure out the reason for the price difference.
> 
> I think I may be the only one who has installers who properly install ridge-vent. How many guys actually hand nail it? This is something I point out to homeowners.
> 
> Since both price and quality are expected, what's the thing you offer that's different?


Do you find that the customer cares about the fact you hand nail it. I honestly didn't know the difference matters. To me I see roofs go up all the time and they all seem to last. If I did need a roof price would matter to me #1 and #2 would be how clean and messy my yard would be as the old shingles are being thrown all over the place.:thumbsup:

I've seen some roofers do work pretty cheap and the quality seemed to be pretty top notch. I'm just being honest, I would get bids and as long as the numbers were not out of hand I would choose they guy who presented himself with professionalism. If the price was much higher than the rest I would take the best out of the cheap guys.

Mike


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

katoman said:


> A couple more thoughts -
> 
> - everyone says they do quality work, very, very, few deliver. I see it all the time.
> 
> ...


I couldn't have said it as well. (My Thanks Button wasn't working.)


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Acres said:


> I try and market the hell out of My prices. I'm inexpensive darn rite cheap sometimes, I take PRIDE in being able to offer that and I want everyone to know it. Its on my trailers, signs and truck.. I have been known to low ball, areas and other companies. Eat or be eaten..


So. How is the race to the bottom going?


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Do you find that the customer cares about the fact you hand nail it. I honestly didn't know the difference matters. To me I see roofs go up all the time and they all seem to last. If I did need a roof price would matter to me #1 and #2 would be how clean and messy my yard would be as the old shingles are being thrown all over the place.:thumbsup:
> 
> I've seen some roofers do work pretty cheap and the quality seemed to be pretty top notch. I'm just being honest, I would get bids and as long as the numbers were not out of hand I would choose they guy who presented himself with professionalism. If the price was much higher than the rest I would take the best out of the cheap guys.
> 
> Mike


With ridge vent and certain ridge caps, gun nails don't bite into wood. I show pictures of what happens when they are too short. ( Cap and vent pull off). Another thing I go into detail yet is about the yard and how we spend a lot of time protecting the house and yard with plywood and tarps. Everyday we do a complete jobsite clean up. It is actually the first thing I talk about.

This year I have found price,warranties and financing to have big impacts on getting jobs. I did receive an email today saying that my price seemed unreasonably low and suspicious thus he wouldn't be going with me. Then I found out he called two of the most expensive guys in our area. Oh well.

Roofing is hard, people view it as a commodity item although not all installs are the same. I like telling people they can lift up any shingle on any location of the roof and it will be properly nailed.


----------



## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> WTF? Really? Come on


100% Absolutely..




> So. How is the race to the bottom going?


Bottom of what? Is mcdonalds going out of business because they have a dollar menu (not comparing myself to mcdonalds but the point stands).. Some people figure it out, some don't.. Why should I sit back and watch countless companies "almost everysingle one" completely overcharge because of there business inefficiencies or sometimes down right greed.. For new people breaking into the business let it be known that you can easil by 20% cheaper than a larger counterpart. and If planned correctly can stay at that level and possibly even more.

Why is it cheaper to eat a Mcdonalds Mcdouble, than to even make your own? IMO only If you can really awnser and understand that question, then you understand macro business..


----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Acres said:


> Why is it cheaper to eat a Mcdonalds Mcdouble


Because McDonalds charges large franchise fees. They don't make profit off the dollar menu but get people in the door with it. 

Offer a "simple" lawn cut for cheap and then up sell when you get your foot in the door. 

I'd rather work for 8 hours and make $500 than I would work 24 hours to make $500.


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Acres said:


> 100% Absolutely..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All good, just understand the limitations of this business model. In order to be successful you have to be true to the model which means you're forever on the hamster wheel you have created. It's great as long as you're young and you body holds up, but theirs no future to it. Your income is limited and capped based upon the constraints of the model, only so many hours in the day, only so many hours you can work. As long as you're happy with those prospects and no future, you're good to go.


----------



## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> Your income is limited and capped based upon the constraints of the model, only so many hours in the day, only so many hours you can work. As long as you're happy with those prospects and no future, you're good to go


All business are capped initially by there model constraints. You base your awnser as if any business model is set in stone. Those ones that are and I agree with you, will fail or you'll at the very least be miserable. Being able to adapt should be THE ONLY business model.If you can't adapt to particular changes then your gonna fail. Being young is irrelevant unless applied to every single business, very few people work until death. Employees of course is the awnser. The main business plan of course is to not work at all, or at least very little, I fortunatley can see a light .


----------



## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

I digress sorry for the tangent.. Kicking it back to the OP.. Think about all the people and businesses THAT DO ADVERTISE PRICE. Every sunday insert, every sale, everything marked off, red tags, cars it's freaking everything. There's probably a 90% to 10% price to quality advertising gap.. IT"S HUGE.. Are we really even as a service industry not going to recognize the price advertising and even more so not incorporate it somehow into how we conduct business? honestly we'd be fools..


----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

That 90% is marketing to a target audience; bargain hunters. 

If you want the Jaclyn Smith clothes price range from Kmart, you will most likely be looking at the newspaper for costs.

If you want quality clothes, you skip the paper and go to Banana Republic to shop.


----------



## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> That 90% is marketing to a target audience; bargain hunters


Must be a HUGE target audience, wouldn't you say...


----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Acres said:


> Must be a HUGE target audience, wouldn't you say...


Don't disagree. However, you need to land _many _more of those clients to hit the same profit margins as 1 or two of the 10%.

Mike said it best; knock your socks off with your current strategy. I'd prefer to focus on the 10% that will give me a mucho bettero return.

_"The world needs ditch diggers too."_ Judge Smails


----------



## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

I heard somewhere that tv ads that really work are based on need, greed and vanity. When I think about that I think it applies an awful lot to contracting.
-need I need to be able to flush the crap out of my house instead of shovel it. I will pay you what you want. 
-greed I will make a killing on this house after the remodel the market just keeps going up and up. Or I'm getting this room painted for $99.00 what a deal!!
-vanity None of my neighbors have a 15k trellis. IN YOUR FACE

Plumbers and electricians sell to need.
High end guys sell to vanity
Everybody else sells to greed.

So why doesn't everyone become a high end guy? There's only so many Faberge' eggs you can sell, son.


----------



## mc handyman (May 17, 2009)

tinner666 said:


> You know, I still can't get that phone call out of my head. What are the odds of that happening, much less while posting on this thread??? :w00t:


Haha that is awesome! Just goes to show that if you have good intentions all else will fall in your favor. Sowing and reaping. Prime example that you can do "business" without harming another man. Good stuff!


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Acres said:


> 100% Absolutely..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand it. And when BK goes to the $.77 burger, I'll eat there. Then, MD will throw the fries in for free. I'll go back. Then, BK will have to offer the fries and drinks for free to get me back.
Others will go to the Italian restaurant down the street and pay $8.00 for the burger and fries, then $3.00 for the drink.

Both places survive. One churns employees and the other keeps the same ones for years. The employees from one eat at MD, the other's employees eat Chinese whenever the urge hits. 

Family Dollar sells tools for some really low price. I don't buy them there. I go for MAc, SO, or Craftsman no matter what they cost.


----------



## Repairman615 (Jan 10, 2011)

....Mr / Mrs. HO, You do not want low quality materials... cheap materials. There are manufactures who do not kid themselves and set out to make cheap goods to provide for people who want cheap. However, I feel it is my job to inform you that you may not be happy with the quality of goods. This is a risk that I am uncomfortable with. You want a new "Insert Job", and I want you to own a great new "Insert Job. If you are not happy with the quality of goods, you may not be happy with my service. Over a matter of 10-20% would you want to compromise the much nicer end results for cheap goods? 



Here is what I may do:
Find out what they need.
Find out what they want.
Qualify for seriousness. (Buying power)
I may throw out some numbers to see how they react but here I do not discuss costs.
Work up a price.
Presentation
Proposal and then Price comes last.
With my proposal may be two options. High and Mid quality. Sometimes Low. Recently, I realized that I need to put the best first. I am no longer trying to sell "upgrades" to the HO. I am now letting the customer down grade. 


Whirlpool tub by "Imagine-you-in-it-e-o". consumer reptorts best features and most sexy. 90 sensuous jets, orgasmic experiance with mood lights, music, and wet bar built in. I also include bubble bath with this purchase.
Basically a quality tub here (really nice)
Aqua Glass one piece alcove insert. (still ok but basically plain-jane)
So here is how it goes in a nutshell (ideally in my mind)..

So mr/mrs HO, here is option 1 from above...'build up the experiance here'...The cost is 5900 installed. Long pauses. Would this be a good fit for You?
Here is option 2.....same as above...the cost is 3500...How do you feel about this?
Door number 3...One peice tub, 2500.

To recap, I am now trying to give them fully loaded. Then they will have to opt-out, let go of the first-best-which-maybe-they-got-creamy-over-already-like-they-want-it-need-it-want-it-I-basically-already-own-this-because-I-am-a-queen-king-princess-****star-it-is-mine-mine-mine... instead of:

I can do it for 2500, one peice tub sure...oh that is what you wanted, great...but hey if you would like to have a better tub, how about a quality tub, only 1k more?? no..hmm well how about a whirlpool, it is the best, I could do that for 5900...no, ok.


Imo, unless you are really high. I do not feel the price is an issue with people who are ready to reno. Someone who needs their shingles patched in because of the storm may not be finacially ready to do a roof. 

Cheap stuff is out there because lots of people want cheap. 

You get what you pay for.
Thanks, 
Jeff :thumbsup:

ps. jeez! I didn't think I had that much to say...hows the popcorn? oh,,I am not an authority by any means.


----------



## Calgaryfence (Feb 28, 2011)

tinner666 said:


> Family Dollar sells tools for some really low price. I don't buy them there. I go for MAc, SO, or Craftsman no matter what they cost.


Right but the average homeowner DOESN'T ... that's the problem, most of you guys here believe you are selling to people that think like you do.

Why do you think Black and Decker has some of the cheapest tools on the market and also some of the most expensive (deWalt)..

Joe homeowner wants the cheap tool that will get the job done, they don't want to pay triple for the same tool, even if it WOULD last 10 times longer. Applies to contracting too - more often than not.


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Calgaryfence said:


> Right but the average homeowner DOESN'T ... that's the problem, most of you guys here believe you are selling to people that think like you do.
> 
> Why do you think Black and Decker has some of the cheapest tools on the market and also some of the most expensive (deWalt)..
> 
> Joe homeowner wants the cheap tool that will get the job done, they don't want to pay triple for the same tool, even if it WOULD last 10 times longer. Applies to contracting too - more often than not.


Isn't that where the 'marketing' comes into play? I have no interest in targetting those people. They won't appreciate me, until all else fails, and I have plenty of work paid for by people who do appreciate me.
I 'gave away' about $3/4M worth last year just in those jobs I refused and sent over to other companies.


----------



## Calgaryfence (Feb 28, 2011)

tinner666 said:


> Isn'tt hat where the 'marketing' comes into play? I have no interest in targetting those people. They won't appreciate me, until all else fails, and I have plenty of work paid for by people who do appreciate me.
> I 'gave away' about $3/4M worth last year just in those jobs I refused and sent over to other companies.


That's my point. You gave the $3/4M away and you act happy - almost proud like you are bragging it. You are twisted into thinking working for those people is "lower class".. McDonalds owners are some of the richest people,while McDonalds customers are the poorest.

Start a "division" with different workers/materials/policy/standards that you can work for the cheaper people too. Turn that $3/4M into another $300/400K for yourself.


----------



## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

mc handyman said:


> *you must choose one side or the other.*


I disagree. You need to learn about your target clients. People with houses in Beverly Hills are going to have different wants and needs than people in Compton. 

Most people are not willing and able to buy a $2 million handcrafted, exotic material Rolls Royce, but they don't want the borderline drivable $500 beater either. 

I don't buy the cheapest vodka ($6 or 7 for a fifth) I can get, but I don't spend $60 on brands that are highly focused on "quality" or perception of it. I shop around and try out different ones in $15-25 range and go with the one that gives me a good value. 

One thing I think you should focus on is value. I think that paying $15 on a fifth gets me a noticeable and good raise in quality over the cheapest junk. $30? Not really. $60? Do I even notice the difference?


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Calgaryfence said:


> That's my point. You gave the $3/4M away and you act happy - almost proud like you are bragging it. You are twisted into thinking working for those people is "lower class".. McDonalds owners are some of the richest people,while McDonalds customers are the poorest.
> 
> Start a "division" with different workers/materials/policy/standards that you can work for the cheaper people too. Turn that $3/4M into another $300/400K for yourself.


Not proud of it. I sent those people to 3 different companies that I know the owners of, and I'm friends of theirs. They're struggling in this market and evidently my website wasn't explicit enough to keep the ones away that I'm not targetting.
In return, those companies often send me the difficult jobs I prefer. I finished one of those Mon.

If I can ever get down to two jobs a week, I'll be happy and so will my clients. Some have been on the waiting list 4-8 months now.


----------



## Calgaryfence (Feb 28, 2011)

tinner666 said:


> Not proud of it. I sent those people to 3 different companies that I know the owners of, and I'm friends of theirs. They're struggling in this market and evidently my website wasn't explicit enough to keep the ones away that I'm not targetting.
> In return, those companies often send me the difficult jobs I prefer. I finished one of those Mon.
> 
> If I can ever get down to two jobs a week, I'll be happy and so will my clients. Some have been on the waiting list 4-8 months now.


Maybe you are just stretching the numbers to make a point or something, but how could they be "struggling" if you gave them a million dollars each worth of work?


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Could be. 4-10 leads a week I don't want come to me. I send them out. For all I know, they don't get all the jobs. I can't say I think about it much.


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Oh. Since an average job should be around $5,000. and up, that's where I came up with those figures.


----------



## Calgaryfence (Feb 28, 2011)

Yeah right, from your website - the one that looks horrible right? You said other other day you get all this amount of organic search traffic to your website.. so I just checked searching google from richmond virginia, you can't even find your company website organically using ANY roofing type search term that I tried.

Now you are claiming to get 4-10 EXTRA leads a week from this same garbage looking un-findable website?? I'm calling bull****...


----------



## Vince_B (May 9, 2008)

I don't really agree with the question.

Competing on price isn't an option in most markets. Other contractors aren't charging enough to stay in business. If you choose to compete on price you are a dead man walking.

If you compete on quality you have to have a way to first define what that is and secondly you have to have a way to measure how much quality you are delivering.

The only way to do that is by customer satisfaction, that is, giving the customer what they perceive to be a good value.


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

I'm not going any further with this. :whistling


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

"Maybe you are just stretching the numbers to make a point or something, but how could they be "struggling" if you gave them a million dollars each worth of work?"
Sorry I wasn't clear enough. The amount I passed on is guessed at. Maybe I should have said 2-6 per week. Whatever. I don't keep track. And the amount guessed at is about $750,000. total. Not to each company. I have no interest in shingle roofs, hence the referrals. Nor am I interested in the commercial calls that somehow come in.
As for struggling, i was paraphrsing what they have individually told me. I don't recall the exact words.


----------



## blackbear (Feb 29, 2008)

Keep the insults in private. This was actually a very good thread, why don't we keep it like that? Show some respect.


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

I'm not so sure McDonalds is a good anallagy. They sell sub-standard food. Does this mean if you copy them you sell sub-standard work?

I'm referrencing GC work here, not lawn cutting. My objection to the "cheap" work is that it does not lead to quality craftsmen. Each to their own, for sure, but I'm in the trade for the joy of building.

Nothing I enjoy more than building someone a quality home, or renovating the one they have. I've spent a lifetime continually improving my craft.
Wouldn't trade it for the world.

Now if all you're after out of life is money............I don't know what to say. Not for me. I like money same as anyone, but that's not why I do what I do.

So the McDonalds route has nothing whatsoever to offer me. I'm with Tinner on this one.


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Calgaryfence said:


> Yeah right, from your website - the one that looks horrible right? You said other other day you get all this amount of organic search traffic to your website.. so I just checked searching google from richmond virginia, you can't even find your company website organically using ANY roofing type search term that I tried.
> 
> Now you are claiming to get 4-10 EXTRA leads a week from this same garbage looking un-findable website?? I'm calling bull****...


Isn't that calling the kettle black? Your website isn't exactly a good example.

I'm really starting to hate this forum. Tinner666 has always been a fair player and an all around nice fellow. Ripping on his website like that isn't cool, you may want to consider looking at your own before you do that.

Mike


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Isn't that calling the kettle black? Your website isn't exactly a good example.
> 
> I'm really starting to hate this forum. Tinner666 has always been a fair player and an all around nice fellow. Ripping on his website like that isn't cool, you may want to consider looking at your own before you do that.
> 
> Mike


Mike, everyone who isn't busy is always envious of those who are swamped.

No reason to hate the rest of us!


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Mike, everyone who isn't busy is always envious of those who are swamped.
> 
> No reason to hate the rest of us!


I don't hate the rest of you, that was a poor choice of words......that's rare for me I know.:laughing:

Naa, I get sick and tired of these same old threads over and over and over. I swear, sometimes I wonder how many people don't make it past talking about it.....and never actually DOING the marketing that everybody is so knowledgeable in.

Maybe I'm just having a bad day


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> I don't hate the rest of you, that was a poor choice of words......that's rare for me I know.:laughing:
> 
> Naa, I get sick and tired of these same old threads over and over and over. I swear, sometimes I wonder how many people don't make it past talking about it.....and never actually DOING the marketing that everybody is so knowledgeable in.
> 
> Maybe I'm just having a bad day


No no, you're right. Many guys who are slow blame the economy first. They never blame themselves. Those who are still busy have one thing in common; advertising.

At least thats how it works in my mind.


----------



## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> They sell sub-standard food. Does this mean if you copy them you sell sub-standard work?


Absolutely not. It means that they have found a way to be extremely profitable AND extremely cheap targeting a specific audience.. Only catering to high end leaves a lot on the table wouldn't you agree. And as others have alluded to you should fairly easily be able to cater to both. Most companies do or at least should, no?. As with regards to this thread, it's extremely tough to market quality because its such a small target. We know it's a small target because all these large companies have already done the leg work for us IE most of there marketing is in price.. Less expensive can very easily mean less expensive and not cheaper quality. If your savvy enough to be less expensive than someone else at the same thing, advertise it(don't be embarrassed), and advertise the sh*t out of it. That's ALL i'm saying...


----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Naa, I get sick and tired of these same old threads over and over and over.


That is exactly why some of us that have been here long seem like crabby ole bastards. You _do _get sick of the same questions over and over and over. 

I wish there was a way to force people to use the search feature. :sad:


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Acres said:


> Absolutely not. It means that they have found a way to be extremely profitable AND extremely cheap targeting a specific audience.. Only catering to high end leaves a lot on the table wouldn't you agree. And as others have alluded to you should fairly easily be able to cater to both. Most companies do or at least should, no?. As with regards to this thread, it's extremely tough to market quality because its such a small target. We know it's a small target because all these large companies have already done the leg work for us IE most of there marketing is in price.. Less expensive can very easily mean less expensive and not cheaper quality. If your savvy enough to be less expensive than someone else at the same thing, advertise it(don't be embarrassed), and advertise the sh*t out of it. That's ALL i'm saying...


I know of really no companies I can think of that cater to both. An important part of business is to understand who your prime customer is, market to them specifically and ignore all other customers.

Companies must gear their product, their services and their systems to a specific customer or they flounder in the market trying to serve everyone.

This Mcdonalds example keeps being thrown around, well, they don't sell a $1.00 value meal and a $30.00 meal on their menu. They don't serve some of their food with plastic forksand paper cups and some of it with fine china.

Their prime customer base is people looking for lots of calories for the lowest price and nothing more. Salads and other stuff they sell is a red herring, that's only to keep liberals off their backs and leave them alone to sell their bread and butter - cheap burgers and frys.


----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I'm hungry. :laughing:


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)




----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

OK, after seeing that...now I'm not so hungry anymore. :laughing:

Corned beef tomorrow!!!!!


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Calgaryfence said:


> Yeah right, from your website - the one that looks horrible right? You said other other day you get all this amount of organic search traffic to your website.. so I just checked searching google from richmond virginia, you can't even find your company website organically using ANY roofing type search term that I tried.
> 
> Now you are claiming to get 4-10 EXTRA leads a week from this same garbage looking un-findable website?? I'm calling bull****...


*He comes up number one on google for:*

roof repair richmond va

*Number 5 on google for: *

roofing richmond va

*Number 1 on google for:*

slate roof repair richmond va

Mike


----------



## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

mc handyman said:


> we have found thus far that many, especially during the past few recessionary years, have been leading with price- and reflecting that price with a given level of quality.


Not sure how well this can relate to construction, but in 2006 and 2007 Wal-Mart began showing decreased numbers in sales. While Target, Best Buy, and a few others showed increases. Listen or read stuff from Dan Kennedy and Michael Stone, they both push the same point, showcasing with price is an unsustainable success. You will be forced to make cutbacks, over time that will affect how you run your business, which will affect sales.

Wal-Mart started using a color carpet in their auto parts section that matched the color of oil. So when people tracked oil or grease on the floor it wouldn't show as much. Which meant they could spend less time cleaning their carpet. When you are selling based on price, you are forced to make cutbacks like that. Customers will pick up on that, and eventually get tired of it.


----------



## TBFGhost (Oct 9, 2008)

angus242 said:


> That is exactly why some of us that have been here long seem like crabby ole bastards. You _do _get sick of the same questions over and over and over.
> 
> I wish there was a way to force people to use the search feature. :sad:


 
This is a "problem" with every forum ever created... there will always be an influx of new people asking similar questions and while the search feature is great, sometimes it doesn't always get the results your looking for. Thread titles aren't always the best and its hard to find things.


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

angus242 said:


> That is exactly why some of us that have been here long seem like crabby ole bastards. You _do _get sick of the same questions over and over and over.
> :sad:


I'm guilty :sad: and I do try not to sound that way. I promise to try to get a little less terse in my answers. I'm just not a typist and hunt and peck somewhat.
I find it much easier to communicte on the phone as several here and at other forums know.


----------



## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*Too much thinking!*

Every business portrays the highest quality possible in their advertising. How many times did you buy a product that was inferior to what the ad made you expect. Every restaurant advertises that their hamburgers are terrific and the price is low compared to quantity and high quality.

The same with construction services; you want your advertising to portray the highest quality possible. Perceived Value! And then you can adjust your price. I can't imagine any contractor advertising that he does crappier work than another contractor so he purposely gets customers with smaller budgets.

Advertise high quality hamburgers (and hot dogs) for reasonable prices. It is The American Way.

I read several articles saying that McDonalds loses money on their $1 hamburgs and several of their restaurant owners were complaining to the corporate office. So, when you use an analogy you need to get the reasons and facts. I believe the $1 hamburg is sold so they can get the sale for the soda and french fries in which each one makes more profit than any of their hamburgers. 

Like the hamburgers, my company cleans drains and sewers at a loss for $49 and $65, but we make up the difference with other sales. We also advertise high quality and a low price for the drain cleaning and our ad is superior to our competitors because we clean up to 150 feet and give a 6-month guarantee while our competitors charge around $135 and give a 30-day guarantee. High quality and a low price is the only way to advertise.


----------



## blackbear (Feb 29, 2008)

I wonder how reverse psychology would work. Something like "We are hacks, don't hire us our work is cheap garbage". I would be willing to bet people will still call.


----------



## Calgaryfence (Feb 28, 2011)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> *He comes up number one on google for:*
> 
> roof repair richmond va
> 
> ...


I checked without "richmond va" actually typed in the search box. I just set the location to richmond, va. The rest of the popular Richmond VA companies come up just by typing "roof repair" or "fix my roof" or "replace roof", or "slate roofing" or whatever else. THose are the sites with a truly high "ranking".

Most people are fairly aware of google localization, and won't be typing a city name with searches eventually.

Also I wasn't comparing my site to his, and mine has been under construction in the last couple weeks. But also I don't claim to get flooded with incoming leads from organic search.


----------



## Calgaryfence (Feb 28, 2011)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> I don't hate the rest of you, that was a poor choice of words......that's rare for me I know.:laughing:
> 
> Naa, I get sick and tired of these same old threads over and over and over. I swear, sometimes I wonder how many people don't make it past talking about it.....and never actually DOING the marketing that everybody is so knowledgeable in.
> 
> Maybe I'm just having a bad day


Maybe you are. I don't know what basis you have to talk about who is "busy" or not, or who is marketing or not.

Is there some error with your post count and join date? It's dividing up to ... a lot per day.. that couldn't be right.


----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Calgaryfence said:


> Maybe you are. I don't know what basis you have to talk about who is "busy" or not, or who is marketing or not.
> 
> Is there some error with your post count and join date? It's dividing up to ... a lot per day.. that couldn't be right.


It's an opinion. If you have a problem with Mike's opinions, either PM him for explanation or report the post.

I have a lot of posts, too. Is there something wrong with that? :blink:


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

It's ok, I'd be happy to answer.

I wake up at 4:00 am and do bookwork for an hour, then an hour of going over the equity markets. 

Then I get 3 kids ready for school, feed them, hug them, and walk them to the bus stop and see them off. 

Then I go back on the computer and do my bidding, billing, and record keeping.

Then I go on CT and see what's happening with the boys, sometimes I post sometimes I don't. In the service world HO's wake up at the crack of 9:00 so I really can't start any earlier.

Then I work. My marketing runs pretty smooth so I don't spend much time with that.

Then I come home and make dinner so when my wife gets home from work she doesn't have to deal with it. 

Then I do homework with the kids.

By about 7:00ish the kids are winding down and getting ready for bed. After 8:00 and because I do my business work in the AM I have some pretty decent free time to either chat on CT or study the markets for the day.

Usually I get 2 service calls a week in the middle of the night, so throw that in there also.

So that's my life, this is a forum and this is what we do. Some people like it some people don't. I enjoy the members here, we have some really kick a$$ contractors here......so why not post?

So now that you know this seems your so worried about what I do I hope that makes you feel better.

On a side note I enjoy marketing, I'm not an expert that's for darn sure but what I do for marketing works really well. I would like to think I help people on occasion except for the times when I'm cranky and feel like riding a few of the regulars here. 

Anything else you would like to know? Cause I would really like to get back to marketing solutions and get past the childish BS here.:thumbsup:

If you would like to know more details like my favorite color or what type of jeans I wear then Pm me because I'm pretty sure the other members don't want to here this.:laughing:

Mike


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Calgaryfence said:


> Maybe you are. I don't know what basis you have to talk about who is "busy" or not, or who is marketing or not.
> 
> Is there some error with your post count and join date? It's dividing up to ... a lot per day.. that couldn't be right.


Why do you poke sticks at people you don't know anything about? Both Mike and tinner are stand up guys. So far you're not even polite.

No ones' attacking you are they? And if you like to question peoples' credentials/post counts, how about letting me know if you have your C of Q. You should have if you're building fences and decks.

Bet you don't. How do you like it when someone questions your abilities?
Not nice is it? 

If you want to get positive things from this site I suggest you drop the attitude.


----------



## Calgaryfence (Feb 28, 2011)

Yeah actually, BamBam said "Mike, everyone who isn't busy is always envious of those who are swamped... 

And then Mike said something about he wonders if guys just TALK about marketing and never really do it.

So that is an attack. And so then I noticed that Mike has 12 posts per day, every day, including Sunday, and I thought to MYSELF I wonder if this guy is even a contractor. Ironic eh.

Also I dont build fences and decks - my employees do, and I tend to hire qualified personel if thats what you are asking.

Some punctuations missing because kb is making french atm.. wierd, sry.


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

katoman said:


> If you want to get positive things from this site I suggest you drop the attitude.


Either that or start buying rounds of beer.:thumbsup:


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Calgaryfence said:


> Yeah actually, BamBam said "Mike, everyone who isn't busy is always envious of those who are swamped...
> 
> And then Mike said something about he wonders if guys just TALK about marketing and never really do it.
> 
> So that is an attack.


That's not a personal attack, I'm referring to the topic because it comes up here all the time. If you think that's an attack then you really need to get thicker skin and not be so sensitive.

Mike


----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Ya know, there are multiple ways to post via a smart phone. Don't need to be sitting in front of a computer to enjoy CT. :whistling


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

angus242 said:


> Ya know, there are multiple ways to post via a smart phone. Don't need to be sitting in front of a computer to enjoy CT. :whistling


......speaking of which, mr smart phone android guy. My CT app is frozen on my android. It just sits and rotates saying it's loading???? WTF, any advice?:laughing:

Mike


----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> ......speaking of which, mr smart phone android guy. My CT app is frozen on my android. It just sits and rotates saying it's loading???? WTF, any advice?:laughing:
> 
> Mike



Make sure you have the latest version. Go to the Market. Go to Menu. Go to My apps. It will tell you if there's an update.


----------



## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

What's a smart phone? :huh:


----------



## NTP74 (Feb 1, 2011)

I wanna know what brand pants Mike wears ?
lol, not really , but someone had to say it !
:laughing:


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

NTP74 said:


> I wanna know what brand pants Mike wears ?
> lol, not really , but someone had to say it !
> :laughing:


Whatever goodwill has in stock. My wife takes care of that for me, I'm not exactly a shopper so to speak.:laughing:


----------



## Calgaryfence (Feb 28, 2011)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> That's not a personal attack, I'm referring to the topic because it comes up here all the time. If you think that's an attack then you really need to get thicker skin and not be so sensitive.
> 
> Mike


You're right, I apologize for being a little too sensitive. Also I apologize to all you guys that I seem to end up stiring up crap a lot .

For your phone, hold your physical button for a few seconds to get to your task manager any time you need to burn a frozen app. (it's like ctrl+alt+del for computers).

Cheers.


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

katoman said:


> What's a smart phone? :huh:


It's a phone where it sucks up all your extra free time when you should be working. :laughing:

Mike


----------



## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> It's a phone where it sucks up all your extra free time when you should be working.
> 
> Mike


Now that's the _perfect _definition! :laughing:


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I'm on the couch right now while the fiancé is watching some damn wedding show!


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Calgaryfence said:


> You're right, I apologize for being a little too sensitive. Also I apologize to all you guys that I seem to end up stiring up crap a lot .
> 
> For your phone, hold your physical button for a few seconds to get to your task manager any time you need to burn a frozen app. (it's like ctrl+alt+del for computers).
> 
> Cheers.


Apology accepted, and I apologize as well.:thumbsup:

I'm gonna try the holding the button thing.

Mike


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

angus242 said:


> Now that's the _perfect _definition! :laughing:


Dude, these dam things are addicting. Today I was listening to Pandora and checking the BBC feed for updates on the Japan fiasco. I should of got more done today. 

Mike


----------



## extramile (Jan 23, 2011)

Yea I'm in the bathtub reading this thread on my iPhone how big of a loser am I?


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

extramile said:


> Yea I'm in the bathtub reading this thread on my iPhone how big of a loser am I?



That all depends, are you a male or female.:laughing: If you a female that's pretty sweet, if your a man you got some serious Dr. Phil issues you need to address.:laughing:


----------



## Mud Master (Feb 26, 2007)

extramile said:


> Yea I'm in the bathtub reading this thread on my iPhone how big of a loser am I?


The real question is...

Do you have candles lite while your in there reading this site?


----------



## NTP74 (Feb 1, 2011)

Mud Master said:


> The real question is...
> 
> Do you have candles lite while your in there reading this site?


 
HaHa :w00t:


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Well, I'm back into the fray. About the numbers I was throwing out there. Like I say, I never bothered with the math.
Wed., I gave Cpompton gutters a 250' job. It could become 380'. I assume $4.00 per ft. I ddin't ask.
Today, I sent a 220,000 sq. ft. job to Laroche Construction. Again, I did not do any math. Average price for that would run from $3.60 per ft. to $10.00 per foot.

I just wanted to explain my numbers a little better. I also assume the 5th. place postioning for roofing in general is where they are generated. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Well, yesterday, I tried to use the value line when meeting with some home owners. I basically said value meant they had to afford me to do the work. 

I didn't scare them off, but need to get my foot out on our next meeting.

Opinions?
When I get back with the client, I was thinking of saying something like this.


" Since I'm a roofer and no salesman, and I ALWAYS stick my foot in my mouth, I meant to say was " With a house like this, in this neighborhood,you can't afford to have hacks working on it and depreciating it's value. You must hire the person whose work will add value to your house. It's an investment and doing it correctly will pay you back in the end." 

What do you think? To me, it sounds like I should add something along these lines to my site.

Opinions?


----------



## Bweikel (Feb 20, 2011)

tinner666 said:


> Well, yesterday, I tried to use the value line when meeting with some home owners. I basically said value meant they had to afford me to do the work.
> 
> I didn't scare them off, but need to get my foot out on our next meeting.
> 
> ...


I think I might re word the hacks with under qualified roofers but I like it Might be a little straight forward for some though. Maybe just explain it to a client if they argue that your price is to high.


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Oh yeah. I'm always straight forward when I meet people. They take to me or don't.
I like what you said.

Since I'm a roofer and no salesman, and I ALWAYS stick my foot in my mouth, I meant to say was " With a house like this, in this neighborhood,you can't afford to have under-qualified roofers working on it and depreciating it's value. You must hire the person whose work will add value to your house. It's an investment and doing it correctly will pay you back in the end.


----------



## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

I thinks its been over 10 years since I've sat in a bathtub.


----------



## Bweikel (Feb 20, 2011)

tinner666 said:


> Oh yeah. I'm always straight forward when I meet people. They take to me or don't.
> I like what you said.
> 
> Since I'm a roofer and no salesman, and I ALWAYS stick my foot in my mouth, I meant to say was " With a house like this, in this neighborhood,you can't afford to have under-qualified roofers working on it and depreciating it's value. You must hire the person whose work will add value to your house. It's an investment and doing it correctly will pay you back in the end.


I think that sounds great still straight forward and yet professional


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

The reason Tinners website rocks IS the honesty. Look how many websites that not only have poor content but the content is fake. So many of them have writing thats cold and almost pretend. People can see right through this. 

Nothing is worse than when a customer reads a website and it's 100% filler that tries to act like content. Honesty is easy to pick up when reading.

Mike


----------



## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*Terrible*



tinner666 said:


> Well, yesterday, I tried to use the value line when meeting with some home owners. I basically said value meant they had to afford me to do the work.
> 
> I didn't scare them off, but need to get my foot out on our next meeting.
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like crap. Never mention other contractors when giving an estimate. Your statement creates an argument, clouds the customer's mind, taints the construction industry, causes a loss of focus, is regressive, is too much talking, and is a senseless waste of words. Also, I am against the practice of trying to educate customers regarding the value of their home. It is so over-used it is a cheap shot. Sometimes, there is a right time and subtle way to mention the home's value.

Maybe I am being a little hard on you.


----------



## Repairman615 (Jan 10, 2011)

I wanted to add a suggestion for the close on the roof. 

I agree with not saying bad words about other peoples work be it their brothers, fathers, or another contractor. I have before but try to stay consious and not.

I can see tinner that you are selective and I think that is great, both because it is smart to avoid clients that are not within your current business model, and also that you are obviously successful enough to be a bit more selective. Good Job. :thumbsup:

How about this :

"...I am selective about the jobs I accept, I would like to do this work for you... I want to do this for You."



Chat a bit then maybe throw them a "Would you like for me to do the job for You?"



My Logic is based on this. During the consultation, if I want to do the work I have found that by telling them I do, they seem like they "_like" _knowing I do and that this would not be something I don't really want to do.

Regards,
Jeff


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

Well, like you say, there is a time and place to bring up the other company/person/roofer/hack/other....

The roof was recently worked on. Here's the previous work. Did it add value to the home?

A replaced valley, a valley repair, a built-in-gutter.

For the record, this represents the bulk of my business calls.


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

pcplumber said:


> Sounds like crap. Never mention other contractors when giving an estimate. Your statement creates an argument, clouds the customer's mind, taints the construction industry, causes a loss of focus, is regressive, is too much talking, and is a senseless waste of words. Also, I am against the practice of trying to educate customers regarding the value of their home. It is so over-used it is a cheap shot. Sometimes, there is a right time and subtle way to mention the home's value.
> 
> Maybe I am being a little hard on you.


You're not being hard on me. I reread my site and to be honest, I already have something close to it on my page now. ZAny change would amount to a rewording edit.


----------



## Jason-F (Jul 4, 2009)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> Do you find that the customer cares about the fact you hand nail it. I honestly didn't know the difference matters. To me I see roofs go up all the time and they all seem to last. If I did need a roof price would matter to me #1
> 
> If the price was much higher than the rest I would take the best out of the cheap guys.
> 
> Mike


 
You know, I think is logic could be applied to all trades...Not just roofing. Do you really think the customer cares that you actually use a level when installing pipe?.As long as the Sh!t is flowing down hill who cares right?

In you case do you think it should be a clear choice that homeowners should choose the guy installing the tank $500 when your price is closer to $800.(im assuming, my father runs a plumbing outfit.) Mabey the prices are different in Fiji.

So you think with all trades as all somone should do is look professional and present the lowest price possible? It has nothing to do with high quality products, Better install techniques, better service.... I didnt expect that post from you.


----------



## Bweikel (Feb 20, 2011)

Jason-F said:


> You know, I think is logic could be applied to all trades...Not just roofing. Do you really think the customer cares that you actually use a level when installing pipe?.As long as the Sh!t is flowing down hill who cares right?
> 
> In you case do you think it should be a clear choice that homeowners should choose the guy installing the tank $500 when your price is closer to $800.(im assuming, my father runs a plumbing outfit.) Mabey the prices are different in Fiji.
> 
> So you think with all trades as all somone should do is look professional and present the lowest price possible? It has nothing to do with high quality products, Better install techniques, better service.... I didnt expect that post from you.


I don't know the type of clients you work for but for mine quality and the best service is what counts the most if they can't afford that then they aren't my clients.


----------



## Jason-F (Jul 4, 2009)

If your asking I price based on the quality angle as well. I was just suprised b/c based on some of mikes other postes I gathered that he also priced based on quality, But from his post in this thread he places price as being his most important buying point when hiring a contractor.


----------



## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> depreciating it's value. You must hire the person whose work will add value to your house. It's an investment and doing it correctly will pay you back in the end.


Tinner I would be careful using "adding value and roof" together in the same sentence. Every house has a roof and it's only new once it's put down. I rarely see houses advertised for sale with the type of roof leading it's sales. It's usually new roof, newer roof, 2 year old roof etc. So most of the value is really probably in the installation date of the roof. Having said that since roofs need upkeep, and it's a very specific type of roof, it may actually hurt the true market value.. Just throwing some stuff out there. Is there any data to back up added value to the actual house? Because as I read that statement, I might actually think my house will be going "UP" in value. Like 110%ROI.


----------



## Jason-F (Jul 4, 2009)

I have read that painting proveides the highest ROI of around 70%. I am quite sure you can't get your money back when it comes to most renovations.


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

Jason-F said:


> You know, I think is logic could be applied to all trades...Not just roofing. Do you really think the customer cares that you actually use a level when installing pipe?.As long as the Sh!t is flowing down hill who cares right?
> 
> In you case do you think it should be a clear choice that homeowners should choose the guy installing the tank $500 when your price is closer to $800.(im assuming, my father runs a plumbing outfit.) Mabey the prices are different in Fiji.
> 
> So you think with all trades as all somone should do is look professional and present the lowest price possible? It has nothing to do with high quality products, Better install techniques, better service.... I didnt expect that post from you.



I think you just didn't understand what I was saying, or maybe I framed it wrong.

In roofing what's the difference in a super quality job and a poor quality job? 

Secondly, and I'm just asking an honest business question....but in roofing do you find customers that are "uber" concerned about quality?

The reason why I ask is because I work with a lot of very high quality GC's and price seems to be the number one factor when the pick there roofer. I think sometimes quality, when it comes to roofing, isn't something that's really visible. A trim carpenter on the other hand creates a product that's very visible so the higher end GC want's a really top notch trim carpenter (at least my GC's do).

From my experience plumbing falls somewhere in between. The GC's want decent quality but price is also very important. Some of the plumbing quality is visible and some of the quality is hidden and never seen until it's a problem.

Do you understand what I mean?

I'm very high priced and I can always find a market so that's not where I was going with this. I think if I owned a roofing business I would be forced to be much more competitive as it concerns price and probably have to run a seriously lean business.

I'm guessing of course because I'm not a roofer. One things is for sure, if a roofer was very professional, still did good quality, and was very competitively priced you would have a seriously long list of customers.

I have a few friends who own roofing businesses. One of then is NOT professional, he talks like garbage and dresses like a bum. If my memory is right he would be 43 years old. Him and his crew are booked solid and have never skipped a beat through this whole recession. What's funny is all of his business is word of mouth, the customers love him. Over the years I've given this a lot of thought I really think his word of mouth spreads because he is so dam fast. He is also cheaper than anybody. He started his business when he was 20 and has a lot of money.

To an average consumer price is very important.

Mike


----------



## Jason-F (Jul 4, 2009)

Mike's Plumbing said:


> In roofing what's the difference in a super quality job and a poor quality job?


Quality of workmanship, Materials used, service provided, Warranty and the biggest thing= the roof being watertight.




Mike's Plumbing said:


> Secondly, and I'm just asking an honest business question....but in roofing do you find customers that are "uber" concerned about quality?Mike


Probably not any more concerned than your customers are concerned about "uber" quality.....But everyone wants to be reassured that they are getting a good service for their money.



Mike's Plumbing said:


> The reason why I ask is because I work with a lot of very high quality GC's and price seems to be the number one factor when the pick there roofer. I think sometimes quality, when it comes to roofing, isn't something that's really visible. A trim carpenter on the other hand creates a product that's very visible so the higher end GC wants a really top notch trim carpenter (at least my GC's do).
> 
> 
> From my experience plumbing falls somewhere in between. The GC's want decent quality but price is also very important. Some of the plumbing quality is visible and some of the quality is hidden and never seen until it's a problem.
> ...


 
Roofing in new construction is very cut throat and I don't compete in it b/c it is 100% price sensitive. I cant compete on price with all the advertising I do, so I don't even try. I know that plumbing in new construction is the same way, and its hard for a medium sized company to make any money. If you do the work yourself there is money there for both trades though.


I think you might have a bit of a hypocrite when you say that nobody cares about the roof but everyone is interested in quality plumbing. It really is all relative...as contractors I think we all see the same situations and meet the same people just in different trade contexts.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I'm finding out very quickly that if you show a professional imagine with a reasonable price, people will choose you. I am now booked out until end of April and that's if we get no rain.

I am selling my bottom of the barrel roof for right around $270 a sq and due to my business structure, I can make money at that.

People care about the quality of the roof during that first rain.


----------



## WarnerConstInc. (Jan 30, 2008)

Tinner does not install asphalt shingles. He repairs slate roofing.

A nice looking and well preforming slate roof will add value.


----------



## Jason-F (Jul 4, 2009)

WarnerConstInc. said:


> Tinner does not install asphalt shingles. He repairs slate roofing.
> 
> A nice looking and well preforming slate roof will add value.


Well It will undoubtablee add "value", but will it add value beyond what the homeowner spent? Slate roofs are upwards of are at 5X as expensive as your avg. shingle install.


----------



## JT Wood (Dec 17, 2007)

BamBamm5144 said:


> I am selling my bottom of the barrel roof for right around $270 a sq and due to my business structure, I can make money at that.



Is that a tearout and reroof? fftopic:


----------



## Acres (Feb 12, 2011)

> Now- if you wanted to look at the difference between say a $300 guy and a $350 guy---- you might have a case-------- but the $220 guy------------- there is not going to be anything remotely comparable between the 2.
> stephen


Thats only about 25% difference from 300 to 225. Maybe he buys in bulk, online, maybe he specializes, could be lean and mean (no excess company fat). I have a feeling 25% less can definitely be "remotely" comparable. I'm 25% less on average at what I do and I'm better.


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

The guy for 220 can EASILY give the customer great quality....EASILY. It happens all the time.

Just because he has a poor business model doesn't mean he does poor work, in fact, there is a really good chance that guy has great word of mouth because obviously he doesn't have money for an advertising budget.

The truth is guys like this don't know they have a failed business model until one day they are out of money. In the mean time they can produce qualiity until the bank roll is done and credit used up leaving the guy with a good pricing model to compete with him.

Quality is found everywhere in all markets and everybody is capable of it. It's a fools paradise to think otherwise. Again, that;s why marketing with a good strategy trumps every time.

Hacks also have a great word of mouth campaign.

Mike


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Stephen H said:


> I am willing to bet bambamm is a pretty good roofer--and I am ALSO willing to bet that the $220 guy delivers a demonstrably inferior product to Bam Bamms' product.
> 
> willing to bet that he uses a demonstrably inferior ridge vent( probably a vent-a-roll type thing without an exterior baffle with less nfa and much less actuall venting performance)- also willing to bet he uses a cheaper and less durable underlayment-also willing to surmise that he uses an icegaurd material that is demonstrably inferior to the one I use( though I don't know what Bambamm uses)
> also willing to bet he doesn't put as much thought and care into nailing patterns as BamBamm, and I am willing to bet the $220 guy doesn't grind his mortar joints and tuck flashing into the masonary structure-----------and I could go on and on and on
> ...



A guy at $220 would be hard to compare to. FYI, it depends on if I am installing a Certainteed of a GAF roof. I will use the components of either manufacturer to make a complete system. Either Winterguard or Weatherwatch, swiftstart - prostart, roofers select- shinglemate, etc. I mainly use shinglevent II for ridgevent.

I was going to say what Mike already did. The problem with the 220 guy, although he may DO great work is that there is no way you can stay in business at that price with todays costs, even if you do cut a few corners.

I think it is obvious that if you can offer top quality at a rock bottom price, you are ahead of the game. You just need to make sure that rock bottom price is high enough that you can stay in business and not just stay busy.

P.S, Thanks for the compliment Mike. I must say though, it is my guys who do the installing, I just try to keep them coming now a days. No longer have enough time to be on the job site as much as I want to be.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

Right after I got done posting that, got a text from one of the installers saying that there was part of the roof that we just got done that was bothering him. Wants to go check it out again while we do a house in that neighborhood next month.

To have guys who think about work on a Sunday is a pretty special thing.


----------



## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Absolutely fascinating thread.

I'm one of those who thinks that marketing based on 'quality' is outmoded, pointless, boring even.

Differentiation is the way forward.


----------



## Mike's Plumbing (Jul 19, 2010)

it's true....and that's why building a "brand" is not what many are doing. They are simply going month to month.

When you busy for a month you think you have a good brand and even think your a great business man. But when the sales stop what happens? People canvas, mail out brochures etc etc.

People need to stop what they are doing and ask themselves "Just how strong of a brand do I really have". Brands are long term, not month to month.

McDonalds doesn't say "Oh man did we have a great month" and they never say "Should we send out some brochures" they think in terms of decades by building a brand that lasts...that's relevant and that knocks the competition out of the park.......even out of business.

Mike


----------



## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*All this talk about price is meaningless!*



BamBamm5144 said:


> A guy at $220 would be hard to compare to. FYI, it depends on if I am installing a Certainteed of a GAF roof. I will use the components of either manufacturer to make a complete system. Either Winterguard or Weatherwatch, swiftstart - prostart, roofers select- shinglemate, etc. I mainly use shinglevent II for ridgevent.
> 
> I was going to say what Mike already did. The problem with the 220 guy, although he may DO great work is that there is no way you can stay in business at that price with todays costs, even if you do cut a few corners.
> 
> ...


You can steal materials, do your work for free, or work for a 6-pack of beer, and there is no relationship between price and quality. You can't call someone a hack just because he works for free. This is the reason my employees are taught never to discuss the competitor's price with a customer. If your competitor's prices are a problem for you then you need to change the way you advertise because there will always be fierce competition on this planet.

One thing not talked about in many threads is how to avoid competing with your competitors and this is accomplished by not using the same advertising media such as yellow pages, not using the internet, and not using the same publications where customers call you from a list that includes your competitors. In essence, you get what you pay for. When you use the cheap method of relying on a web site then keep complaining about your cheap competition.

I like to think that my company has virtually no competition because we target our customers with advertising that is not delivered near or next to any competition. We target our customers to get a 'spur-of-the-monent' request for service and this is accomplished with hand-delivered brochures, direct mail, ink pens, coffee mugs, business cards, credit cards, and door-to-door canvassing. None of these advertising campaigs come attached with a competitor's phone number!


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

BamBamm,
in my opinion part of a quality job means being able to stay in business long enough to stand behind a warranty------- which I doubt can be done at $220/sq., LOL
perhaps you have already encountered people who dealt with $220 contractors---and the guy is out of business when the problems surface-so YOU get the call AND you find yourself listening to the homeowners plaintive wail" but I got a 10 year warranty!"

If you haven't got this call-eventually you will, LOL

I know that mike likes to say" quality is free"- but in reality there are a lot of quality details in roofing that take time-and time is money-and at $225 there isn't time or money for proper service, site clean-up, tricky flashing details or better materials.

speaking of better materials-we used to use a lot of GAF weatherwatch and Certainteed wintergaurd-we have almost entirely eliminated those 2 brands of icegaurd because we no longer feel they are satisfactory.---------------------------- 3 years ago ,after a hailstorm, I had an opportunity to replace a roof thaqt I had worked on about 7 years previously and had installed Weatherwatch. when doing the tear-off-we found the weather watch adhesion-to be less than satisfactory-----and so we have switched alnmost entirely to Grace.

Yes- the GRACE costs a bit more------ and it is DEFINITELY harder to install- but when we show customers GRACE-and samples of cheaper products-and explain the differences- NO ONE asks for the cheaper products. and when we explain WHY we will be coving icegaurd and underlayment under the siding and up the sidewall-- no one ever says" naw- just butt it against the wall and charge us less"

Search out the right customers and they WILL pay for quality detailing that the $225 guys can't deliver.- yes there are $225 customers-and $225 contractors-and they are welcome to each other. in fact the $225 contractors are GOOD for my business- because they turn there customers into $510 customers within a few years,LOL!

BTW----I got a nice call last night and apparently now I am scheduling well into June-with 2 sales calls to make today.

Best wishes, all,stephen


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

BamBamm,
Before I forget- I have been meaning to ask you-- have you ever used a material called Gaf Deck Armor ?- It is a product I am considering- but haven't found anybody I know locally using it---- it is allegedly a premium,breathable underlayment- I think probabaly at about the same price point as Titanium UDL.------
I was just wondering if you could report any experience with it-particularly if you had left it exposed for any length of time.
thanks,
stephen


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

I used it on one I had to leave open for a while. I lifted it when I went to do the roof and spent a day drying the deck out before putting it back down.
It leaks around the nails and if your foot scuffs it, that removes the waterproof coat on it.


----------



## Credo Invictus (Mar 18, 2011)

Stephen H said:


> ... the guy is out of business when the problems surface...


I've seen a couple of bad experiences when a cheated customer tries to cheat the next contractor along. Presumably the thought process is, "They're all the same, and I'm just getting my own back."


----------



## Stephen H (Feb 18, 2011)

tinner666 said:


> I used it on one I had to leave open for a while. I lifted it when I went to do the roof and spent a day drying the deck out before putting it back down.
> It leaks around the nails and if your foot scuffs it, that removes the waterproof coat on it.


 thank you Frank- I guess I will stick with titanium udl untill I find something better. I have a flyer on it which looks great- but in the back of my mind I think someone told me they had used it-left it exposed for a couple of days in rain-and it kind of just soaked up the water like a sponge.
I don't think I know anybody personally who uses it.
i will stick with the titanium- but I am always open to an upgrade if you have something in mind that's better?
stephen


----------



## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

I just use whatever is handy and tarp it if I have to leave it 'open'. I have one like that tonight with wild storms shaking my house now.


----------



## Credo Invictus (Mar 18, 2011)

john elliott said:


> ... I'm one of those who thinks that marketing based on 'quality' is outmoded, pointless, boring even... Differentiation is the way forward.


OK. Differentiate me a kitchen cabinet, and persuade me that I didn't just want a good one!


----------



## jakejorgenson (Mar 17, 2009)

I try hard to sell the quality but I try to sell it in ways like customer testimonials and actually showing them homes we have built compared to others around ours to see the difference. In the end, it still comes down to price, price, and price. No matter how good our quality is, even a client shopping quality will try and shop other "quality" driven companies that are in the same price range and have done similar work. For example, we recently completed a large scale remodel and addition that was pretty technical for a remodel. We completed it very well and the clients were satisfied. Not until a few months later did they say that most of the neighbors had done similar projects since theirs and hired this other guy that lived in their area instead of us and when they walk through their projects they could then see how much better theirs was built. All through the building process they did nothing but struggle to understand why we were more expensive on some items and why we didn't use the least expensive granite guy, least expensive plumber, etc. Now they know and feel bad for not giving us the referrals to the neighbors (before they saw that work they felt like I was too high and wouldn't give the referral).

As a GC, we get stuck in the middle a whole lot because roofers, tile guys, plumbers, whoever it may be, will bid things that are supposed to be apple to apple and we know they are not, yet the clients just want to use whoever is least expensive regardless of the quality items we discuss with them (most of our jobs are cost+). I can't tell you how many jobs I've bid and not got because we actually included doing the work per plans and per code requirements where other bidders didn't even meet code with the pricing they gave or used illegal workers or didn't have insurance.

I've decided that you really have to feel the client out. I liked the posts about getting to know and understand the client before throwing out a price. In our world, if your product is a custom product or something unique, face time is invaluable. Often they hire you because they like you and your business organization and not simply pricing. If your product is something of a "widget" like a standard shingle job where most HO's can figure out right and wrong, you have to be the lowest number.

Perceived value is also huge. What people on the other side of the table perceive as value may be different than you and it is critical to figure that out. One client I'm working with sees a huge value in putting on a lifetime metal roof where others think it is a total waste and would never pay for it. 

I read a book that talked about 3 business models, Operational Excellence, Customer Intimacy, and Product Leadership. Rather than fitting an exact price point, fitting one of these models works well. Think of the large companies that have been around a long time and then think of these 3 models. What model does your company fit into? Ours is customer intimacy with a focus on specific clients. A builder I used to work for was all about operational excellence and thus could sell lower but you also got a lower end product (McDonalds).


----------



## pcplumber (Oct 12, 2008)

*Great Post!*



jakejorgenson said:


> I try hard to sell the quality but I try to sell it in ways like customer testimonials and actually showing them homes we have built compared to others around ours to see the difference. In the end, it still comes down to price, price, and price. No matter how good our quality is, even a client shopping quality will try and shop other "quality" driven companies that are in the same price range and have done similar work. For example, we recently completed a large scale remodel and addition that was pretty technical for a remodel. We completed it very well and the clients were satisfied. Not until a few months later did they say that most of the neighbors had done similar projects since theirs and hired this other guy that lived in their area instead of us and when they walk through their projects they could then see how much better theirs was built. All through the building process they did nothing but struggle to understand why we were more expensive on some items and why we didn't use the least expensive granite guy, least expensive plumber, etc. Now they know and feel bad for not giving us the referrals to the neighbors (before they saw that work they felt like I was too high and wouldn't give the referral).
> 
> As a GC, we get stuck in the middle a whole lot because roofers, tile guys, plumbers, whoever it may be, will bid things that are supposed to be apple to apple and we know they are not, yet the clients just want to use whoever is least expensive regardless of the quality items we discuss with them (most of our jobs are cost+). I can't tell you how many jobs I've bid and not got because we actually included doing the work per plans and per code requirements where other bidders didn't even meet code with the pricing they gave or used illegal workers or didn't have insurance.
> 
> ...


Great post and well-written.

But you didn't answer the question and the question in this thread is; should a contractor's marketing lead with price or quality before they are your customer and before you can feel them out? Are you going to entice people to call you with ads that are stronger with price or quality?


----------



## Credo Invictus (Mar 18, 2011)

jakejorgenson said:


> ... In the end, it still comes down to price, price, and price...


I had a quote rejected. I phoned to ask why (sometimes people will help you with advice). I was told that my price was too low to assure them of a good job. I then said, "Oh, you wanted our *superior* work", tripled the price, and got the job.


----------



## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

I got a quote rejected. Weirdest thing. He said my price was too low and the quality too high.

Funny how that works.


----------



## Credo Invictus (Mar 18, 2011)

BamBamm5144 said:


> .... He said my price was too low and the quality too high...


I believe you. So does Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy!


----------



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

pcplumber said:


> Great post and well-written.
> 
> But you didn't answer the question and the question in this thread is; should a contractor's marketing lead with price or quality before they are your customer and before you can feel them out? *Are you going to entice people to call you with ads that are stronger with price or quality**?*
> 
> ...


----------

