# Hacks!!!!



## joelv1967 (Apr 10, 2009)

I just went to do a job I bid last week. On the face, it looked quite simple. Just adding 4 6" recessed lights in a master bedroom. Single story SFR w/ attic access. Sounds pretty easy!!

I marked the ceiling for the old work cans, made sure the joists weren't in the way,........

Now, I go into the attic to run my 14/2 to the lights, and my switch leg. I immediately notice that the MBr is an addition (and a poor one at that).

I can do my job as quoted, but called to the attention of the HO that he has structural issues, illegal junctions, and that the 'hack' who did the job scabbed off of anything and everything to get the power for the addition. It is obvious that this addition was never permitted!!!

The HO does not care, and wants me to proceed as planned.

So.....Now I must decide if I will pull a new home run to a 15 amp breaker, wire a new switch leg, and keep my installation independant of the hack job that proceeded me, or do I tell him that I am not interested in working on a room in anyway that has so many code violations. :furious:

BTW....If I do the work, I would want something in writing proving that the mess there was pre-existing, and that I had nothing to do with it.


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

joelv1967 said:


> I just went to do a job I bid last week. On the face, it looked quite simple. Just adding 4 6" recessed lights in a master bedroom. Single story SFR w/ attic access. Sounds pretty easy!!
> 
> I marked the ceiling for the old work cans, made sure the joists weren't in the way,........
> 
> ...


Could come back to bit you in the ...
I would not touch it.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

I wouldn't touch it unless the HO agrees to bring everything visible up to code.:thumbsup:


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

loneframer said:


> I wouldn't touch it unless the HO agrees to bring everything visible up to code.:thumbsup:


 
Good point.
And more $$$$
Take them up there and explain to them what is up.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

If he's not interested in safety first, I would walk away and drop a nickle on him.

Knowledge = guilt


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## Mellison (Aug 3, 2008)

Chris Johnson said:


> If he's not interested in safety first, I would walk away and drop a nickle on him.
> 
> Knowledge = guilt


It's "Drop a dime"

Tough economy huh?
It's even affecting your expressions.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

I always request the customer fill out a form detailing the unsafe condition, and stating they are refusing to allow me to correct it. This usually gets my point across.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

joelv1967 said:


> I just went to do a job I bid last week. On the face, it looked quite simple. Just adding 4 6" recessed lights in a master bedroom. Single story SFR w/ attic access. Sounds pretty easy!!
> 
> I marked the ceiling for the old work cans, made sure the joists weren't in the way,........
> 
> ...


What ? you going to knock the house down because they want 4 cans? We had one like that today plus the place was full of trash and cat pee to boot. We found the short, got her power back on to her furnace, got paid and left. Nobody expects you to save the world.

Oh, and the furnace and water heater were newer and had recent stickers from the building deptartment so a parade of inspectors saw the same stuff we did. They didn't feel the need to save the world either. 

You have a gc license, a ec license, and a plumbers license??:thumbsup:

That's what I want to be when I grow up. I should be able to make the ec license but the plumbers license would be a stretch.


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## joelv1967 (Apr 10, 2009)

K2 said:


> You have a gc license, a ec license, and a plumbers license??:thumbsup:
> 
> That's what I want to be when I grow up. I should be able to make the ec license but the plumbers license would be a stretch.


 
Yupp.....28 years in the trenches....Had the ec first, but the type of jobs that are my bread and butter (bank owned) kinda forced me to get the Plumb and GC so that I could keep a bigger peice of the pie instead of using subs.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

480sparky said:


> I always request the customer fill out a form detailing the unsafe condition, and stating they are refusing to allow me to correct it. This usually gets my point across.



You've said this before and it seems the best way to get the job AND cover your butt.


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## nEighter (Nov 24, 2008)

yeah stop the hack enable'ers in their tracks. Seriously. Don't put your name or your business' name on the line. I have dealt with enough of these "get er done" home owners to know state the obvious, voice concern and walk away if they don't want to pony the money. They got away with the add on and everything else to this point.. don't get caught up in their want everything for nothing scheme.. Good luck to you good sir!


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

It's easy for us on the sidelines to tell you to not do the job. Only you can make that call. However, if you do the job, get pictures of as many of the visible viotations as possible, get pictures of the work you did, and detail in a written disclaimer to the customer what you found AND the recommended corrective action. The HO can then sign that they are opting to not make the corrections. Detail specifically the work you did. 

South end of your northbound hide is covered.


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

I wonder why they didn't call the hack who did it?


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

Mellison said:


> It's "Drop a dime"
> 
> Tough economy huh?
> It's even affecting your expressions.


 
Forgot...drop a dime and do a nickle in Folsom


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## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

I also think you guys are being to harsh. Do the work to code, run a new circuit so you are not connecting to anything that's illegal. If the panel is not legal, that's a separate issue, you must make it legal. 

The standard we work to here is that our work must meet current code along with anything it connects to/depends on. We have no obligation to fix existing problems as long as our work, is legal and connects to a legal panel.

After completing the job, I would hand the owner a letter detailing my work and how it was all done properly and to code and a description of the problems I found and let it go at that. You could have the letter included in your final bill. Keep a copy for yourself. 

I also have GC, EC, and MC licenses.


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## Eddy Current (Nov 19, 2006)

thom said:


> I also think you guys are being to harsh.* Do the work to code, run a new circuit so you are not connecting to anything that's illegal. If the panel is not legal, that's a separate issue, you must make it legal. *
> 
> The standard we work to here is that our work must meet current code along with anything it connects to/depends on. *We have no obligation to fix existing problems as long as our work, is legal and connects to a legal panel.*
> 
> ...


I agree as well.


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## Mike(VA) (Jan 9, 2008)

I disagree with Thom. In this day and age, some slick lawyer is going to sue you because you are an expert, or at least a professional. The poor HO is not and therefore relies on your professional judgement and wisdom to save him from himself. Therefore, when his house burns (or falls) to the ground and they determine it was an electrical (or insert problem here)problem, the HO is going to want to blame you because you should have known. He didn't know what the last guy did. You should have warned him. You should have suggested corrective action as a professional that would have saved him from himself. You should have blah, blah, blah.......

This isn't too far fetched. Cover your butt and document, document, document. And for God's sake, pull a permit if one is required.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Mike(VA) said:


> I disagree with Thom. In this day and age, some slick lawyer is going to sue you because you are an expert, or at least a professional. The poor HO is not and therefore relies on your professional judgement and wisdom to save him from himself. Therefore, when his house burns (or falls) to the ground and they determine it was an electrical (or insert problem here)problem, the HO is going to want to blame you because you should have known. He didn't know what the last guy did. You should have warned him. You should have suggested corrective action as a professional that would have saved him from himself. You should have blah, blah, blah.......
> 
> This isn't too far fetched. Cover your butt and document, document, document. And for God's sake, pull a permit if one is required.


I got sued once. The lady judge gave the lady and her lawyer a royal a$$ chewing. Judges are smarter than most people think.


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## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *Mellison*
> _It's "Drop a dime"
> 
> Tough economy huh?
> It's even affecting your expressions._


Forget the nickle and forget the dime.

Find the hack and drop a duece on him.


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

I am with thom on this concern. This is just how i do business and this kind of occurence is common around here. I verbally explain to the customer and try to show them if they are concerned enough to look that the previous work was done poorly and is a hazard. If they chose not to repair it then it is their problem, not mine. I write all of my concerns on the final invoice and have them sign my copy for my records. I also prefer to bring in my inspector for the work i performed to help cover my butt. As long as you perform your work up to code and the customer is notified of the hazards that were installed previous to your work then there is no liability on you.


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