# Outdoor Kitchen Build Question



## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

CJKarl said:


> My local supplier was showing me this stuff. I've never used their stuff so I can't comment. But I guess there is a place for it. Modular lightweight bolt together panels.
> http://www.landscapeonline.com/products/listing.php?id=12476
> P.S. check out their WFOs :blink:


I saw the guys on Indoors Out use one of these kits and to be honest I wasn't really impressed. The design of the dome is all wrong and will not retain heat or cook as it should. The guys at Forno really have the design down and they retain heat very well. My oven at home will still be 400-500 degrees the next day after cooking in it the night before. I am sure everyone has their own opinion on wfo's, so this is just my 2c. I know a lot of people swear by the barrel vault design.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

It is not the barrel vault that is the problem, it takes mine 4-5 days to return to ambient.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

openhearth said:


> I saw the guys on Indoors Out use one of these kits and to be honest I wasn't really impressed. The design of the dome is all wrong and will not retain heat or cook as it should. The guys at Forno really have the design down and they retain heat very well. My oven at home will still be 400-500 degrees the next day after cooking in it the night before. I am sure everyone has their own opinion on wfo's, so this is just my 2c. I know a lot of people swear by the barrel vault design.



Yeah, didn't want to say anything negative about the product, but it's not something I would use. 
The link is more about the modular concrete kitchen system.


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## CJKarl (Nov 21, 2006)

http://www.outdoorkitchenhardscapes.com/PDFs/brochurekitchen.pdf


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## Stone (Mar 23, 2009)

> Stone: What did you use for your wfo kit? I am the dealer here in Michigan for Forno Bravo and use their kits quite a bit. I have done the brick by brick thing and it just doesn't pay to go that route.


I have used Fogazzo (researched and chosen by the homeowner) and Mugnaini. The first just had a 2 inch thick insulation pad under it, and the second required 9 inches of concrete, then 6 inches of sand and then 3 more inches of concrete. Both homeowners are happy but to me the Mugnaini was better, as it should be for a couple of thousand more than the other one. I would definitely consider Forno Bravo next time because I have checked them out and get their newsletter. I am only an hour and a half from you, so I'll look you up if I do another one.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Here is a recent one done with treated lumber and ply. This one is not totally exposed, as it is covered by a roof.


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## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

Stone - yes, I've done several of the Mugnaini ovens I think I posted a couple pictures. But yes very thick insulation layers under and also all around. They are the most serious oven I've built, the Forno I would say is also good quality oven.

But as far as the outdoor kitcken BBQ thing, being a masonry contractor, I only know about masonry construction really. I would suppose that anyone who wanted a 2x4 framed unit would hire a carpenter so every one I've built is out of brick,or block with either stone veneer, or stucco. For most of them, any stucco is done seperately by a stucco guy, granite counters by a granite guy. 

I have seen pre-fab kits and I've always thought they look cheap although I realize budget is a factor and that dreaded frost line that I don't have to deal with in southern California.

I *have* had to go to a very well known ladies home in Rancho Santa Fe, and tear out a BBQ that had been framed with wood. Over the years the wood had dried out, charred, and was smoking and ready to catch on fire when they finally noticed. This BBQ was attached to the house! Maybe an 8 million dollar house. 

I know the literature that comes with the BBQ units I work with, usually Wolf, or Lynx, lists two sets of clearances one for all masonry, and one for wood framed, so I imagine there is a safe way to do this but it's not something I would build. 

BTW, what's that piece of metal facia around the BBQ unit on a couple of those BBQs? It's in Greg's picture, and also on the front of the literaure (Karl's link) for the panelized kitchens. Looks ugly but 
I'm guessing it's to cover up that extra space you need around a combustable. 
Dave


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

Stone said:


> I have used Fogazzo (researched and chosen by the homeowner) and Mugnaini. The first just had a 2 inch thick insulation pad under it, and the second required 9 inches of concrete, then 6 inches of sand and then 3 more inches of concrete. Both homeowners are happy but to me the Mugnaini was better, as it should be for a couple of thousand more than the other one. I would definitely consider Forno Bravo next time because I have checked them out and get their newsletter. I am only an hour and a half from you, so I'll look you up if I do another one.


I have read on the Mugnaini website about their installation requirements. Seems crazy to me especially when you can just put the ceramic board under the floor and have great results. I think you are in my dealer territory so let me know if you need one and I will give you a discount.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

Warren said:


> Here is a recent one done with treated lumber and ply. This one is not totally exposed, as it is covered by a roof.


Looks nice. What stone is that?


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

openhearth said:


> Looks nice. What stone is that?


I have no idea. We merely built the walls for the cabinets to attach to. We did all the framing and exterior carpentry on this job. It is actually a detached garage with a huge porch in the rear. The kitchen is part of the rear porch.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

dbrons said:


> I *have* had to go to a very well known ladies home in Rancho Santa Fe, and tear out a BBQ that had been framed with wood. Over the years the wood had dried out, charred, and was smoking and ready to catch on fire when they finally noticed. This BBQ was attached to the house! Maybe an 8 million dollar house.
> 
> I know the literature that comes with the BBQ units I work with, usually Wolf, or Lynx, lists two sets of clearances one for all masonry, and one for wood framed, so I imagine there is a safe way to do this but it's not something I would build.
> Dave


I guess it would be easy enough to use metals studs near anything the required a clearance and then tie them in to the PT framing.


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## Warren (Feb 19, 2005)

Here is the grill location on the same job. It was all set In masonry


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## Captainsls (Nov 8, 2007)

I've done quite a few kitchens/grill surrounds and heavily favor block construction. All of these units are clad in stone, so a masonry application is best suited on a rigid footer and substrate IMHO. The appliance tolerances really aren't that bad... I usually know what the client is ordering and pull the schematics off the web and build to those specs. Only once have I needed to run 6" block directly behind the grill to not force am excessively deep counter. I always make sure that the stainless cabinets are an enclosed unit so they aren't looking at block when the door is open. 

I frame out the cabinet with PT anchored into the block/stone and always insist on using a grill that is supported by the countertop. Very important. I won't use Viking because their appliances require a support system under the unit which is just a cluster. Lynx, Bull, DCS... All nice to work with.

I'll be getting references from my solid masonry units in 20 years if I'm still in business... Not sure I could guarantee that using wood.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

openhearth said:


> I have done the brick by brick thing and it just doesn't pay to go that route.


:blink:


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

Captainsls said:


> I've done quite a few kitchens/grill surrounds and heavily favor block construction. All of these units are clad in stone, so a masonry application is best suited on a rigid footer and substrate IMHO. The appliance tolerances really aren't that bad... I usually know what the client is ordering and pull the schematics off the web and build to those specs. Only once have I needed to run 6" block directly behind the grill to not force am excessively deep counter. I always make sure that the stainless cabinets are an enclosed unit so they aren't looking at block when the door is open.
> 
> I frame out the cabinet with PT anchored into the block/stone and always insist on using a grill that is supported by the counter top. Very important. I won't use Viking because their appliances require a support system under the unit which is just a cluster. Lynx, Bull, DCS... All nice to work with.
> 
> I'll be getting references from my solid masonry units in 20 years if I'm still in business... Not sure I could guarantee that using wood.




After reading everyone's posts I was thinking of doing the same thing. Block for the back and sides and then PT framing for the appliances with anchors and a lot of glue. I think it is more peace of mind knowing it is concrete rather than all wood. PT has a tendency to warp and dry out and that was my concern from the start. They will be using Bull appliances so the install shouldn't be a problem. I didn't know that about viking, thanks.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

stonecutter said:


> :blink:


I think the fire brick domes have their merits. I built one at my own house and use it weekly, but they take longer to heat up and unless you are baking a lot of bread that extra thermal mass isn't really necessary. The FB domes are usually 400-500 degrees the next day. It takes me a week or more to build the dome by hand(yes, I am slow) and 2 or 3 hours to install the dome kit from Forno. All that extra labor I don't have to charge the customer for makes up for the higher priced dome kit IMO. That and you use a lot less wood to fire them up. It is really hard to duplicate the refractory materials they use in their products. I am sure the experienced masons out there are thinking I am taking short cuts, but I really do think their product is superior over the fire brick. Just my 2c.


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## dbrons (Apr 12, 2010)

> I am sure the experienced masons out there are thinking I am taking short cuts, but I really do think their product is superior over the fire brick. Just my 2c.


No, I don't think you're taking a short cut. I would love to build myself a pizza oven from firebricks because I could do it myself and at low cost. But for a customer, the kits are the way to go IMO

Dave


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

I agree with Dbrons. i won't build with PT because it's not the medium that i build with, and i do believe that theyre outdoors and are in contact with heat sources so masonry makes sense. I'v only done a handful of built in grills and never a real outdoor kitchen just the grills and counters with storage and bar fridges but all the grills Ive done have had to be supported from below (I wish I'd taken note of the manufacturer but they've all been supplied my HO's or contractors), Makes it a real pain in the butt and bulky since after supporting the unit you still have to support the counter. I'll have to take note of the different manufacturers for the future


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

openhearth said:


> I think the fire brick domes have their merits. I built one at my own house and use it weekly, but they take longer to heat up and unless you are baking a lot of bread that extra thermal mass isn't really necessary. The FB domes are usually 400-500 degrees the next day. It takes me a week or more to build the dome by hand(yes, I am slow) and 2 or 3 hours to install the dome kit from Forno. All that extra labor I don't have to charge the customer for makes up for the higher priced dome kit IMO. That and you use a lot less wood to fire them up. It is really hard to duplicate the refractory materials they use in their products. I am sure the experienced masons out there are thinking I am taking short cuts, but I really do think their product is superior over the fire brick. Just my 2c.


The brick domes I have built have walls that are 3.5" - 4.5" thick. The factory domes are about the same...at least the one I installed was. I didn't see any difference in firing times or heat storage since the thermal mass was the same. As far as wood consumption, that's an insulation issue if we are comparing the same size ovens. I have never seen a difference between a 4" brick dome or a 4" refractory dome.
Also, as far as quality, there is good firebrick and there is great firebrick.

IMO,the pre fab oven has the advantages of speed and ease of installation. The rest is all about the builders ability and understanding of how WFOs function.

But whatever works for you. FB offers a good product and is of great quality.


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## openhearth (May 20, 2012)

stonecutter said:


> The brick domes I have built have walls that are 3.5" - 4.5" thick. The factory domes are about the same...at least the one I installed was. I didn't see any difference in firing times or heat storage since the thermal mass was the same. As far as wood consumption, that's an insulation issue if we are comparing the same size ovens. I have never seen a difference between a 4" brick dome or a 4" refractory dome.
> Also, as far as quality, there is good firebrick and there is great firebrick.
> 
> IMO,the pre fab oven has the advantages of speed and ease of installation. The rest is all about the builders ability and understanding of how WFOs function.
> ...


FB Domes are only 2" thick unless you purchase the commercial Modena series. They are 4" thick. I use 4" of ceramic blanket on the sides of the dome and 6" on the top and rear. The blanket is rated to 2600 degrees. I then fill the cavity around the oven with perlite, but honestly I don't think it makes any difference with all of that ceramic blanket. With a fire brick cut in half and then a 1\2" of mortar on top of the dome you are at 5" thick. That is going to take a lot longer to heat up than a 2" thick FB dome, but because of the FB dome materials it still retains it's heat almost as long. 30-45 minutes heat up time compared to 1hr-1:15 on mine at home. Also, because these ovens cook with reflective heat and natural convection, I think the FB oven cooks better because of the lower dome height. At least that has been my experience


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