# Paint house with brushes ONLY No rollers!



## Leo G (May 12, 2005)

Some people don't care about the best bang for their buck. Some people just want the best and are willing to pay for it.


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

Leo G said:


> Some people don't care about the best bang for their buck. Some people just want the best and are willing to pay for it.


That's why I like giving options and educating the customer. Then they can choose the best fit for their needs.:thumbsup:

And if they say they what the best, by golly I give it to them! :thumbup:


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

If the house has Behr on it I wouldn't want anything to do with that job.


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## D.E.P.S. (Aug 3, 2013)

hdavis said:


> Working off a ladder only, I'll get about 350 sq ft a day of 4" reveal clapboards with a 4" brush. Working on the ground or off an Alumapole, I'll get easily 600 sq ft an hour.
> 
> None of that includes cutting, just open wall.
> 
> ...



You are old school. I grew up in Rumford and learned exteriors about the same way you described. My uncle used to scream that the paint was drying on my brush....lol.


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## CarrPainting (Jun 29, 2010)

I am putting in the contract that we will be sanding the areas which are pealing...only :thumbsup: I already discussed the 'stripping option'

I also mentioned power washing..you know essentially rinse the house.... :blink::no::laughing:

She wants zero, as in not a single chip of paint in any of the gardens, and this house has some of the most elaborate gardens i have seen :sad:

and I do more than most if not all the painters around... we use cloth drops, cardboard, plastic, ect to protect landscaping, then we vacuum the gardens....


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

CarrPainting said:


> I also mentioned power washing..you know essentially rinse the house.... :blink::no::laughing:
> 
> She wants zero, as in not a single chip of paint in any of the gardens, and this house has some of the most elaborate gardens i have seen :sad:


 Run Forest Run!


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

D.E.P.S. said:


> You are old school. I grew up in Rumford and learned exteriors about the same way you described. My uncle used to scream that the paint was drying on my brush....lol.


Cool, a local boy! A lot of hard workers in Rumford.:thumbsup:


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

CarrPainting said:


> I am putting in the contract that we will be sanding the areas which are pealing...only :thumbsup: I already discussed the 'stripping option'



Will it pass a tape test the way it is?


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## Caslon (Dec 15, 2007)

Sir Mixalot said:


> Run Forest Run!


No rolling no spraying? 
Rolls Royces used to be all hand brushed. Their house is no rolls royce.


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## dave_dj1 (Mar 16, 2010)

Around here you might get away with spraying an old barn or an out building but most houses are brushed, period.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

If you spray without brushing, does the paint last as long? It just kind of seems like it wouldn't hold up as well. Brushing pushes the product into the surface more it would seem.


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## Caslon (Dec 15, 2007)

dave_dj1 said:


> Around here you might get away with spraying an old barn or an out building but most houses are brushed, period.


Really? Understood. Around here, it's sorta the opposite of that.
I still say that with all the knowledge we've all shared, the OP yielded to the odd desires of the customer. I would have convinced them otherwise. But Hey!!! If that's the way they want it..ok fine...to a degree. These type potential customers tend to raise multiple yellow flags with me.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> If you spray without brushing, does the paint last as long? It just kind of seems like it wouldn't hold up as well. Brushing pushes the product into the surface more it would seem.


It's too easy to apply too thin of a coat with spraying that's the main issue. It also doesn't fill.

But really it depends on the surface you're working with. On this particular job I would specify in my contract that I can't guarantee the underlying paint will not continue to peel.


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## Caslon (Dec 15, 2007)

avenge said:


> It's too easy to apply too thin of a coat with spraying that's the main issue. It also doesn't fill.
> 
> But really it depends on the surface you're working with. On this particular job I would specify in my contract that I can't guarantee the underlying paint will not continue to peel.



The idea of a customer telling me how to best paint for them is why I'd walk, if not run, from this one.

Spray with a big rig...and no coat thickness issues.

You can pump out a lot of paint with a .617 tip and Graco 595...or...equivalent.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

Caslon said:


> The idea of a customer telling me how to best paint for them is why I'd walk, if not run, from this one.
> 
> Spray with a big rig...and no coat thickness issues.
> 
> You can pump out a lot of paint with a .617 tip and Graco 595...or...equivalent.


I agree I probably wouldn't touch this job. And it's not the spray rig or tip that's the issue, it's the applicator. As I said it depends on the surface you are spraying. Spraying will give you the best looking job but not always the highest quality job.

I don't want to paint anymore anyway so you'd have to pay me a substantial amount to brush an entire exterior.


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## Caslon (Dec 15, 2007)

avenge said:


> I agree I probably wouldn't touch this job. And it's not the spray rig or tip that's the issue, it's the applicator. As I said it depends on the surface you are spraying. Spraying will give you the best looking job but not always the highest quality job.


Safely said...yawn. These young-uns gotta break in somewhere, I reckon.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

Sir Mixalot said:


> Run Forest Run!


 yeah, the way he's explaining these people it's going to be a nightmare job brush or spray. I wouldn't even give them a quote.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Xtrememtnbiker said:


> If you spray without brushing, does the paint last as long? It just kind of seems like it wouldn't hold up as well. Brushing pushes the product into the surface more it would seem.


Brushing will push it into little gaps and holes that would wind up being thin otherwise. Once you have a full coat on, there is no real difference that I'm aware of.

I have to hedge my statement - not all paints and primers can perform well whether brushed or sprayed, some penetrate more than others and adhere better, level better,...


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## Sir Mixalot (Jan 6, 2008)

KennMacMoragh said:


> yeah, the way he's explaining these people it's going to be a nightmare job brush or spray. I wouldn't even give them a quote.


Agreed. :thumbsup:
If HO's don't want to let me do the proper prep before painting, that's a deal breaker! :scooter:

Probably why the last two paint jobs failed.


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## Skyvorima (Nov 3, 2013)

CarrPainting said:


> A former customer of mine who I have done extensive plaster work for, asked if I did exterior painting... now given the name of my business, one would naturally assume that I do painting... :laughing::whistling
> 
> they have a 2.5 story house, with wood siding that hubby stripped down to bare wood some 40 years ago.
> 
> ...


Charge it strictly by the square footage and look up local market value for exterior painting so you can show the client it is a fair price. T+M is a nightmare in today's economy. 

Ive done several exteriors where clients wanted it to be brushed and the quickest method I have found is to have a guy on the ground with a roller while I back brush using one or two brushes. 

I would also use a solid stain versus primer/paint because it will last longer and be easier to maintain.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Skyvorima said:


> You are in the wrong career field. Politicians are the best at avoiding responsibility for their own words.


Nah you would be better. You like rewriting history to suit your argument. Face it. I never said they were the same as a whole that was not the context. It was peeling and failure. Pretty simple. Even HDavis understood.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

Skyvorima said:


> You are in the wrong career field. Politicians are the best at avoiding responsibility for their own words.


You'll get used to it - TNT tends to be very precise, so you have to take what he says narrowly.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

hdavis said:


> You'll get used to it - TNT tends to be very precise, so you have to take what he says narrowly.


It's just the way my mind works.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> It's just the way my mind works.


I actually appreciate it, but for most it would take some getting used to.


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## Skyvorima (Nov 3, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Nah you would be better. You like rewriting history to suit your argument. Face it. I never said they were the same as a whole that was not the context. It was peeling and failure. Pretty simple. Even HDavis understood.


There is no real difference between 12 eggs and a dozen eggs. (But Iam not saying they are the same.)


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## Skyvorima (Nov 3, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Not solid stain. It will peel.


Show us a picture of properly prepped solid stain on siding that is peeling.


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## Skyvorima (Nov 3, 2013)

hdavis said:


> You'll get used to it - TNT tends to be very precise, so you have to take what he says narrowly.


He claimed oil based paint will do the exact same thing as solid stain. He said you cannot put solid stain directly on wood. He said solid stain does not allow breathing any better than paint. 

He might be good at some things but he is not a professional painter by any standard and it is sad he takes people's money posing as a professional painter.

Solid stain applied directly to dry wood will not peel anything like paint. It is physically impossible because the formulas used to make the two different products are very different. Stain can chip but it is rare. If someone put stain over paint and then that starts peeling that is not the stain peeling because it never came into direct contact with the wood.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Skyvorima said:


> He claimed oil based paint will do the exact same thing as solid stain. He said you cannot put solid stain directly on wood. He said solid stain does not allow breathing any better than paint.
> 
> He might be good at some things but he is not a professional painter by any standard and it is sad he takes people's money posing as a professional painter.
> 
> Solid stain applied directly to dry wood will not peel anything like paint. It is physically impossible because the formulas used to make the two different products are very different. Stain can chip but it is rare. If someone put stain over paint and then that starts peeling that is not the stain peeling because it never came into direct contact with the wood.


I claimed, in context, that it would last just as long.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Skyvorima said:


> He claimed oil based paint will do the exact same thing as solid stain. He said you cannot put solid stain directly on wood. He said solid stain does not allow breathing any better than paint.
> 
> He might be good at some things but he is not a professional painter by any standard and it is sad he takes people's money posing as a professional painter.
> 
> Solid stain applied directly to dry wood will not peel anything like paint. It is physically impossible because the formulas used to make the two different products are very different. Stain can chip but it is rare. If someone put stain over paint and then that starts peeling that is not the stain peeling because it never came into direct contact with the wood.


What's funny is HDavis claimed that the best stain isn't close to being better than the best paint. 

And I NEVER said you cannot put stain directly on wood. I said some stains do require priming, or recommend it on the application instructions.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

TNTSERVICES said:


> What's funny is HDavis claimed that the best stain isn't close to being better than the best paint.
> 
> And I NEVER said you cannot put stain directly on wood. I said some stains do require priming, or recommend it on the application instructions.


He is correct the best solid stain will not last as long as the best paint. I keep hearing stain over dry wood, so my question is what am I doing when I apply solid stain over primer or solid stain over solid stain? Seems to me I'm not doing anything different than if I were using paint, it's still not "touching" the wood.

You can apply solid stain over painted wood.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

IMO. a lot of the really old clapboards on old houses wind up doing best by going pretty old school. Old oil primers were really runny - they soaked in a lot. They didn't have much for tint in them, most just had a little white lead, so it wound up looking like a wash coat after application. The oldest coating I;ve found on anything was an old oil primer that looks like it had some kind of arsenoleadcopper acetate tint. Over 50 years, and could be a lot older.


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## D.E.P.S. (Aug 3, 2013)

Skyvorima said:


> He claimed oil based paint will do the exact same thing as solid stain. He said you cannot put solid stain directly on wood. He said solid stain does not allow breathing any better than paint.
> 
> He might be good at some things but he is not a professional painter by any standard and it is sad he takes people's money posing as a professional painter.
> 
> Solid stain applied directly to dry wood will not peel anything like paint. It is physically impossible because the formulas used to make the two different products are very different. Stain can chip but it is rare. If someone put stain over paint and then that starts peeling that is not the stain peeling because it never came into direct contact with the wood.


It all comes down to the moisture/oil/tannin/chemical content of the wood, and what type of wood you are speaking about. There are too many variables to consider when staining or painting. Staining over bare wood can be a disaster when the moisture content is too high, or oils and tannins force the stain outwards. I have seen stain rejected many times, and do some other crazy stuff over the years. I have seen it bubble up. The old tried and trued method is to water drop test the substrate. If the wood sucks in the water pretty fast........it's ready for stain. But even that doesn't Guarantee against tannins.


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## avenge (Sep 25, 2008)

hdavis said:


> IMO. a lot of the really old clapboards on old houses wind up doing best by going pretty old school. Old oil primers were really runny - they soaked in a lot. They didn't have much for tint in them, most just had a little white lead, so it wound up looking like a wash coat after application. The oldest coating I;ve found on anything was an old oil primer that looks like it had some kind of arsenoleadcopper acetate tint. Over 50 years, and could be a lot older.


I don't know, in all my years of working with oil I almost always thinned it. With oil you can easily thin it too much and when it drys it amounts to nothing. Paints used to have more tint, the bases were darker to begin with. Crappy Behr had the purist colors and everyone else had to follow and made the bases lighter. 

I don't care for what's happening to the formulation of today's paints, no VOC's are really screwing them up. Very few paints cover the way they used to and the workability sucks.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

avenge said:


> I don't care for what's happening to the formulation of today's paints, no VOC's are really screwing them up. Very few paints cover the way they used to and the workability sucks.


The biggest problem from where I sit is by the time I've done a 10 year test on a paint, I can't get the exact same thing, plus it's a chunk of change just to do 3 year tests on every new product. I pretty much gave up on this, it just isn't practical for me. Working out what to do for prep and initial treatment of substrates is still practical, so that's what I'm up to. It can easily take more time and a lot of materials $ than actual paint or stain on old buildings.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

avenge said:


> He is correct the best solid stain will not last as long as the best paint. I keep hearing stain over dry wood, so my question is what am I doing when I apply solid stain over primer or solid stain over solid stain? Seems to me I'm not doing anything different than if I were using paint, it's still not "touching" the wood.
> 
> You can apply solid stain over painted wood.


Oh, I agree. I was just pointing out that others have said similar things and Sky has been silent.


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## hdavis (Feb 14, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Oh, I agree. I was just pointing out that others have said similar things and Sky has been silent.


For the clapboards I work with, the smartest thing I could do with an open can of Woodscapes solid stain and bare wood is dump it on the ground. Either that, or replace the clapboards, and that isn't happening.

Cedar shakes are a different story.


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## Skyvorima (Nov 3, 2013)

I was kind of too lazy to respond to several posts so I made one:


http://www.contractortalk.com/f8/exterior-solid-stain-v-paint-wood-siding-148737/#post2020838


I didn't see this type of thread in recent use and thought it would be helpful for others to provide their experiences.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Skyvorima said:


> I was kind of too lazy to respond to several posts so I made one:
> 
> 
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f8/exterior-solid-stain-v-paint-wood-siding-148737/#post2020838
> ...


Yeah, it's much easier to press the reset button rather than face the mess you made here.


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## Skyvorima (Nov 3, 2013)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Yeah, it's much easier to press the reset button rather than face the mess you made here.


Maybe it is not realized but comments such as these only serve to embarrass yourself.


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## TNTRenovate (Aug 19, 2010)

Skyvorima said:


> Maybe it is not realized but comments such as these only serve to embarrass yourself.


And it does the same thing pointing it out. :whistling


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