# How many wires can connect to each Circuit Breaker?



## SoCalContractor (Dec 21, 2007)

*...*

...


----------



## Rodthetileman (Dec 21, 2007)

This sounds like a fire hazard to me.
Electrical connections vibrate with the current flowing through them causing friction which makes the diameter or thickness of the wire or connector smaller over time causing a loose fit. Also I think each circuit should have it's own breaker. I hope the breakers aren't FPE .

What is the amp rating for the breaker with the two circuits connected to it and what kind of load do those circuits carry? Is the breaker your looking at with two wires a two pole breaker? or are two wires being held with one screw?

I would have a licensed electrical contractor inspect the entire building and make the land lord bring up to par.

The things you have already described make me cringe...think about what you haven't seen geese


----------



## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

it depends on the circuit breaker...who is the manufacturer?


----------



## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Rodthetileman said:


> I would have a licensed electrical contractor inspect the entire building and make the land lord bring up to par.


Yeah? Good luck with that. :whistling


As Mahl said, it depends on the breaker. 
If the breaker does not accept two conductors, yes, it is a violation. Will a building burn down because of it? I think NOT.


----------



## rbsremodeling (Nov 12, 2007)

Your Brother the licensed electrician thought it was a violation?


He was not sure?
He did not know how to find out?
he doesn't know and inspector who could look at it?

hmmmm


----------



## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

licensed and qualified are not always interchangeable....


----------



## Bubbles (Sep 27, 2007)

*Multiples*

As long as you pigtail the circuits into one equiv. conductor to the breaker. It's ok (you might pop the breaker alot) but not ideal. I've seen 9 circuits on 1 breaker before and the tenant told me it never tripped the breaker. And about tweaking the breaker to make it stay on? I've tweaked to make it fit in but not tweaked the other way on a loose breaker. Just buy a new one for $6 and be done with it. 

Long term. I'd bite the bullet and at least put in new panels in your commercial bldg and get things separated out and hooked up right. Hopefully the rest of your service will be ok? Definately, have an EC look at it and give you an opinion. Go take a pic and post on here and you'll get all kinds of opinions.

Good luck


----------



## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Bubbles said:


> ...... Go take a pic and post on here and you'll get all kinds of opinions.Good luck


:laughing: That's for sure!:laughing:



mahlere said:


> licensed and qualified are not always interchangeable....


Amen brother, Amen:thumbup:


----------



## curranelectric (Sep 25, 2007)

Yes, It is a code violation, to double lug an existing circuit breaker. Another thing you could overload the breaker and being that they fit loose and are falling out it would cause the breaker to get hot and burn. I would get a LICENSED Electrician to look at it. You know that the landlords electrician is working for him not for you. That is why you need to get someone to look at it. Then you have leverage if need be. The part he says that because the electrical box is metal there is no way of a fire is false. This is a pic of what might happen if the breaker get's hot from bad connection and fail.


----------



## SoCalContractor (Dec 21, 2007)

...


----------



## firemike (Dec 11, 2005)

> licensed and qualified are not always interchangeable....


You got that right. Several years ago, I had a licensed MASTER electrician working for me that could not wire a stop/start button for a motor starter, always had the apprentice do it for him. He didn't want to learn either, just pull rope.


----------



## Tmrrptr (Mar 22, 2007)

A circuit breaker is a safety device.

Very foolish to tamper with one, in any way.

Someone may have had 9 taps on a breaker and load was lite, but cramming a bunch of wires under a fastening screw does not meet any acceptable practice I've heard of.

Curran shows us a pic of a mild failure of a busbar contact.
I've seen the whole inside of a panel that resembled a charcoal briquette.
...and the installation was recent, commercial, and done by a CA licensed contractor who was also a regional big wheel with PG&E. Go figure...


----------



## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

curranelectric said:


> Yes, It is a code violation, to double lug an existing circuit breaker.


??/

But it's ok for new?

I say neither(existing or new) is acceptable unless the breaker is listed for double wires...and if the breaker is not listed as such, remove the wires and pigtail them.

Either way, curran's statement does not hold any water.


----------



## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

SoCalContractor said:


> She uploaded the video of her and the landlord's guy.
> 
> Here's the link of her with the Landlord's electrician:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV58_ccctAA


About 10 mins long...I didn't watch it though...I will later.


----------



## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

110.3(B) Installation and Use Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.


----------



## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Celtic said:


> ??/
> ...and if the breaker is not listed as such, remove the wires and pigtail them.


312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.


----------



## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mickeyco said:


> *312.8
> Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices *
> *Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes, *auxiliary gutters, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors, *splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.*


The problem with this section is that non-electricians only read the blue portion and stop.

The solution is an actual electrician keeps on reading and sees the green portion.

Nobody pays much attention to the black letters in between :laughing:


----------



## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mickeyco said:


> 110.3(B) Installation and Use Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.


Sq. D QO are the only type CB that I am aware of that are listed for double wires.

The panels in the video "appear" to be FPE (lower panels) and maybe Murray for the uppers.


----------



## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Celtic said:


> Sq. D QO are the only type CB that I am aware of that are listed for double wires.
> 
> The panels in the video "appear" to be FPE (lower panels) and maybe Murray for the uppers.


There's a few:


----------



## thom (Nov 3, 2006)

The original post and bubbles response both referred to multiple circuits on a single breaker. Bubbles post talked about pig-tailing them together.

Maybe it's semantics, maybe not, but I've always considered everything on a single breaker to be a single circuit. It matters not whether or how it's split, it's a single circuit. Do the rest of you not see it this way?

As a follow up, the number of individual splits is not an issue so long as you don't overload the circuit. If you're running 4 Watt led's on a 20A circuit you could safely split that circuit many many times but it would still be a single circuit if it was on a single breaker.

Of course the splits need to be done in a legal manner, generally not at the breaker.


----------



## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Celtic said:


> The problem with this section is that non-electricians only read the blue portion and stop.
> 
> The solution is an actual electrician keeps on reading and sees the green portion.
> 
> Nobody pays much attention to the black letters in between :laughing:


I think it's fine to splice inside the panel, you see it out here on a few older places that went from fuses to breakers and the existing wires wouldn't reach the breakers in the new panel.


"There are always code violations" unknown electrician​


----------



## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mickeyco said:


> There's a few:


Thanks Mickey.

I learned something today :thumbsup:


----------



## Tmrrptr (Mar 22, 2007)

I'm with Thom.

Mickey and Celtic certainly showed where it's legal to pigtail within the enclosure, and I would prefer to see that, but always considered it to be bad form. Not unsafe, just a less than desirable method.

But, if yer on a remodel...


----------



## Bubbles (Sep 27, 2007)

*Entertainment*

Damn, I was laughing my ass off at that video. Did you see the how agitated she got him the first half of video and then he was so overfilled with joy he turned speechless at the end. I liked that guy. The only disturbing thing to me is that she recorded him without knowing. It would'nt take much for a lawyer to find one wrong comment and "Lawsuit"!! This guy shot from the hip and he wasn't a "Salesman" which is what I liked about him. 

Really Funny Stuff


----------



## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Bubbles said:


> It would'nt take much for a lawyer to find one wrong comment and "Lawsuit"!!


In some States, only one party needs to know they are being taped.

...and the whole "lawsuit" from the contractor issue could easily blow up in his face - in spite of the rhetoric that all publicity is good publicity :whistling


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

My apologies to the original poster but, what a biotch. She was focused on pushing her aganda based on very little info passed on from her brother.

I would have handled her MUCH better than that clown though. Everybody would have been happy when I was done 

Terrible video though as it didn't show any details, just the personal conflict. I couldn't tell what type of breakers they were but it is nothing that couldn't be solved in a short amount of time with a few wire nuts.:thumbsup:


----------



## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

firemike said:


> You got that right. Several years ago, I had a licensed MASTER electrician working for me that could not wire a stop/start button for a motor starter, always had the apprentice do it for him. He didn't want to learn either, just pull rope.



This is true of a lot of electricians. Not everyone knows how to wire them up correctly because they've never been taught. How hard can it be? :laughing: Feeder sizing, branch circuits, overloads, overcurrent protection, full-load current calculations, percentage ratings, motor controllers, multiple start/ stop stations, forward/ reverse, auxillary contacts, coils, etc... there's a lot to learn. I betcha it's rare for anyone to learn all that just by being out in the field.

And for the record, i just recently learned how to wire start/ stop stations. I struggled with it at first, then one night the bulb went off and now I feel confident in wiring them.


----------



## SoCalContractor (Dec 21, 2007)

blah


----------



## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

why didn't y'all go look at the building before she signed a lease to make sure it was adequate?

she signs the lease...now she wants the landlord to spend money to fix it? 

am i missing something here?


----------



## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

I must be missing something here - I'll admit I didn't watch all the videos from start to finish...but...

- 15, 20 or even 100 wires in a panel does NOT mean you need 15, 20 or 100 CBs.

- How a previous tenant built out the space should have no bearing on how a future tenant wishes to build out. Sometimes the circuitry is adequate - more times NOT.


Unless the lease agreement states that the LL is responsible for building out this space to suit the tenants needs, what is the issue?


----------



## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

How many neutrals in those bottom panels and what are they connected to?


----------



## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

So Cal, WTF? 
Why did you delete all your posts here??? Especially the original post.
Now no one knows what the hell is going on.


----------



## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

don't you hate that? call someone on the BS and they go and do childish stuff like this...and we wonder why contractors get no respect and contracting is such a messed up business...we are a bunch of dummies in the trades...and we prove it every chance we get...


----------



## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

I think that the OP was looking for a thread to copy and print for ammunition.
He didn't get it so...
Tail between his legs, going down the road talking to himself.:laughing:


----------



## Mark Twenhafel (Dec 23, 2006)

thom said:


> Maybe it's semantics, maybe not, but I've always considered everything on a single breaker to be a single circuit. It matters not whether or how it's split, it's a single circuit. Do the rest of you not see it this way?


Nice catch, dude. Non-fuzzy thinking usually helps. From Article 100:_*Branch Circuit.* The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s)._​Obviously, one's circuit calculations should be done accordingly.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

neolitic said:


> I think that the OP was looking for a thread to copy and print for ammunition.
> He didn't get it so...
> Tail between his legs, going down the road talking to himself.:laughing:


Sounds like an accurate assessment of the situation to me.


----------



## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

...and another one bites the dust...thanks to the CT BS meter:thumbsup:


----------



## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

I don't know what this was all about because socalbuttcheeko deleted and ran...but I had a home inspector tell me he was taught to write a comment/violation for splices in a service panel. I sent him an email quoting the previously mentioned code section. Then I made a rough measurement of the available cubic-inch space for conductors and calculated approximately the limit of conductors for that space. He responded with..."You really get into this stuff, don't you?"

Dave


----------



## BigMikeB (Aug 1, 2007)

Celtic said:


> ...and another one bites the dust...thanks to the CT BS meter:thumbsup:


 
It is funny how many guys think they know something about another trade until they open their mouths and their ignorance pops out. It is just so much easier to stick to what you know. And what you are legally able to do.


----------



## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> So Cal, WTF?
> Why did you delete all your posts here??? Especially the original post.
> Now no one knows what the hell is going on.



Since it seems he didn't find any like-minded individuals here, he also yanked the videos from youtube.


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

> Why did you delete all your posts here??? Especially the original post.


 
Because SHE was wrong and chicks don't like to be wrong.

The OP insinuated that the chick in the video was his....sister I think? I think the OP was the chick on the video. When things didn't work out the way she wanted she pulled chocks and left. VERY chick like.


----------



## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

To all the ladies here:
I apologize for the preceding crass, insensitive, and overly broad comment!:notworthy
Please feel free to slap 220/221 severely about the head with sticks.:laughing:


----------



## Mark Twenhafel (Dec 23, 2006)

neolitic said:


> To all the ladies here:
> I apologize for the preceding crass, insensitive, and overly broad comment!:notworthy
> Please feel free to slap 220/221 severely about the head with sticks.:laughing:


Can anyone take that liberty--not just women?


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 29, 2007)

Come on......you all know it was a broad. :laughing:

The way she was acting on the video was right in line with someone who would delete all posts and huff off. 

I'm a message board veteranarty: I can sense these things.


----------



## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

220/221 said:


> Come on......you all know it was a broad. :laughing:
> The way she was acting on the video was right in line with someone who would delete all posts and huff off.
> I'm a message board veteranarty: I can sense these things.


I thought you were very insightful with the "SHE" part.....:whistling
everything after that.....
You're on you own, just don't stand too close to me!:laughing:


----------



## Andy in ATL (Aug 17, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Come on......you all know it was a broad. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a message board veteranarty: I can sense these things.


Me too. Definitely a broad.


----------



## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)

Always good to find a thread where I have no idea what happened. :furious:

Oh wait, that's most of them.... :laughing:


----------



## neolitic (Apr 20, 2006)

Definitely not the one to come in during the third reel!:laughing:


----------



## JohnJ0906 (Jan 7, 2007)




----------

