# Neutral hotter than hot?



## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

I finally found an electrician that would let me shadow him. While we were working today he told me something that I’ve heard from many other sparkys. He said that touching a neutral that’s coming from a heavy load will do more damage than if you just touched the hot. This has always puzzled me because it goes against every thing that I thought I knew about a circuit. Many a journeymen have said the same thing though, so I guess their must be something to it. 

If I touch the hot, current flows from the hot to the ground thru me. I would be closing a circuit with the heaviest load there is, a short circuit. If you insert a load in between me and the hot, that can only add resistance a therefore increase voltage drop and *decrease* current flow.

Am I right?


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

the reason a neutral bites more is because for it to bite, you have to be in series with the circuit so all the current flow is going through you .

If you touch a hot wire, you are in parallel with any other load so what current flows through you is based upon the relative resistance of you and the other loads.

Skin has quite a bit of resistance so the current is generally less but not always.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

Sounds like BS to me unless the neutral is shared (2 circuit, 2 breakers, same leg, 1 neutral) and overloaded. I await the experts answers.



.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Touch a Hot and you will draw "X" due to your resistance/conductance. Touch a Neutral, say on an 15 Ampere electric motor and you will _draw_ NOTHING. But you will get the full end load PUSHED through you. The motor determines the amount of juice in the line not YOUR conductance.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

I am familiar with electrical but certainly not a sparky. So, what I say should be confirmed by a certified electrician. Neutrals within one panel are shared. There is only one neutral bar on the panel, and they are all tied together. If you touch a neutral wire, you can draw some current from a circuit that you are not aware of. With the hot wire, you will pick up the current of one circuit, but not of the whole "house". 

If you decrease the voltage (higher voltage drop), the current in the circuit will increase. That is why a lot of heaters use higher voltage. One could run say an electric furnace on 120v, but the amp draw would be quite high and large wires would be necessary to handle the load. It's not the volts that will kill you, its the amps.

The neutral is a grounding conductor. You must have a "ground" to complete the circuit. There is only one grounding conductor (neutral) and it is shared, I believe you can pick up the loads throughout the building. The purpose of the green wire ground is for safety. If any current is "drawn" through the green ground, the breaker will trip. 

Malco, I will bet dollars to donuts that if you were to touch any part of the bare wire hot or neutral on a circuit that draws 15 amps, you will feel the love of electricity.

If I am incorrect, hopefully a real electrician will set me straight. I just hope what I said was clear and even more important, is correct.... Just trying to help


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

flashheatingand said:


> Malco, I will bet dollars to donuts that if you were to touch any part of the bare wire hot or neutral on a circuit that draws 15 amps, you will feel the love of electricity.



Please re read my post to fully understand what I said. When you touch a Neutral that is under a load you are not drawing electrons, the Motor has drawn the electricity. It is now a "Push". The Motors load is now PUSHED through you.


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

flashheatingand said:


> I am familiar with electrical but certainly not a sparky. So, what I say should be confirmed by a certified electrician. Neutrals within one panel are shared. There is only one neutral bar on the panel, and they are all tied together. If you touch a neutral wire, you can draw some current from a circuit that you are not aware of. With the hot wire, you will pick up the current of one circuit, but not of the whole "house".
> 
> If you decrease the voltage (higher voltage drop), the current in the circuit will increase. That is why a lot of heaters use higher voltage. One could run say an electric furnace on 120v, but the amp draw would be quite high and large wires would be necessary to handle the load. It's not the volts that will kill you, its the amps.
> 
> ...


 
Your hopes are about to be answered.:laughing:
The neutral is not a "grounding conductor" it is a *grounded *conductor, this is very important to understand the difference. The ground conductor should have zero current on it unless there is a fault ( short circuit or ground fault ) The *grounded conductor* is a phase conductor that has been intentionally connected to Ground. Since the earth has high resistance it is not a conductor, we only connect to earth to allow lightning and very high utility voltage to go to earth. 
The *grounded conductor* in most installations is the neutral conductor of the system, although in some systems it could be a "hot" phase conductor like a 480 volt corner grounded delta system, not one you will see much if ever. When in a house or office building you will come across many "multi wire branch circuits "MWBC". These are multiple phase conductors "hots" that share one neutral conductor (when you look at the over head service conductors coming into a house you will see 2 "hots" and 1 neutral this is a Multi wire circuit) If you touch both phase conductors "hots" at the same time you will receive a good 208 to 240 volt shock. Since these 2 hots share the same "neutral" and are on different phases,they complete the circuit at the point the separate "hots" come together at the neutral, if you open the neutral and get in series with the hots "*POW*" you get the full voltage of the MWBC not just the voltage of one phase conductor. This is the "simple explanation" it is not completely accurate because there are different conditions and different systems that change some of what I have said. 
In a nut shell plumbers should not open neutrals.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm not sure we should be using terms like "push" or "pull". A hot AC pushes and pulls 60 times every second as polartiy reveses. The only thing I can think of that would make a neutral to hit harder would be inductance or capacitance such as a load with a motor.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

protechplumbing said:


> I'm not sure we should be using terms like "push" or "pull". A hot AC pushes and pulls 60 times every second as polartiy reveses. The only thing I can think of that would make a neutral to hit harder would be inductance or capacitance such as a load with a motor.


Is that NOT what I said with appropriately place Quotations???????!!!!!!!!:whistling


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't understand how a capacitor or inductor would make any more current flow thru you. I would think the only way to make more current flow would be to increase the voltage.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

that first one is wrong. Not sure how I came up with that amerage:blink:


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

When one gets hit with a standard hot wire in a standard American home, the breaker just about never breaks BECAUSE our bodies will only draw a certain amount of Juice and it is usually less than 15 Amperes.

When one gets hit on and end-load Neutral, the Device has determined the amount of draw and therefore has made the decision for your physical makeup as to how much you will now receive. 

You are no longer only a "60 Watt bulb". You are now what ever the Device says you are.

HELL! I have often tested hot blacks by "slapping" the wire. Never bothered me! But I am NEVER "slapping" a Neutral that is POST DEVICE!

Now, REMEMBER! I am NOT a licensed Sparky. What I know is from EXPERIENCE and not books nor classes.

I am not wrong, but I may be explaining it improperly.


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## walkerj (May 14, 2007)

Heres a test: 
Use wire nuts tohook up a portable flash light.
Open the grounded conductor.
Use a voltage tester across the two white leads. 
You should read ~120vac.
Repeat the same un the hot.
Your results should be the same.
Now use an amprobe on just the white.
60 watt bulb should be about.5 amps
Now use the amprobe on the black
Same results

Make sense?


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

Your personal body resistance, how you deal with being hit, where the power enters and leaves, how well you are grounded, parallel or series in the circuit, your question has so many variables it is not a practical question but MALCO is on the right track as to the answer you seek. The big difference is being in series with a circuit or being parallel in a circuit. If you are in series with either a hot or a neut, it won't be any difference. You will experience the same amount of current and voltage. If you are paralled with a neut, you will not generally experience anything. If you are parallel with a hot, you are getting current but it will be determined by many factors.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

walkerj said:


> Heres a test:
> Use wire nuts tohook up a portable flash light.
> Open the grounded conductor.
> Use a voltage tester across the two white leads.
> ...


 
Nevermind. I see what you are doing. The plumber is making this hard and I lost track of where I was at.
No, your test does not make sense. What are you trying to prove or state?


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

yep



walkerj said:


> Heres a test:
> Use wire nuts tohook up a portable flash light.
> Open the grounded conductor.
> Use a voltage tester across the two white leads.
> ...


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

nap said:


> Nevermind. I see what you are doing. The plumber is making this hard and I lost track of where I was at.
> No, your test does not make sense. What are you trying to prove or state?


that the same amount of current is flowing thru the hot and the neutral.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

protechplumbing said:


> that the same amount of current is flowing thru the hot and the neutral.


did you read my entire post?


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

I still don't see how a neutral will make any more current flow thru you. Series or parallel doesn't make any more juice go thru you. If you are grounded and touch the hot, the only things that will determine how much current flows thru you would be the voltage of the hot and how many ohms your body resists the voltage with (which depends on how good you grounded, how sweaty you are and how long the electricity has to travel thru your body)

Putting something with a resistance higher than the conductor in between you and the AC source would only LOWER the amount of voltage and consequent current your body would be subjected to.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

yes


nap said:


> did you read my entire post?


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Simple.....If you touch a Hot that has come Straight from the source, you can ONLY draw a small amount of juice.

The Motor has drawn far in excess of what your body will allow to be drawn on the circuit and therefore is "spitting out" that current because it HAS to, tis the Nature of electron flow, and in turn has determined the amount of current you are hit with.

If you hook up a 1 Watt 120v bulb, it _draws_ just that. You hook up a 1500 Watt Motor, it _draws_ just that. You are on the receiving end of a set "draw". 

I much prefer a 1 Watt hit to a 1500 Watt hit!!!


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

......................


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## nolatigabait (Aug 14, 2008)

hey plumber, i've seen you ask the dumbest questions in this forum, you try to over-complicate things...why don't you just stick to turd wrestling?


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

nolatigabait said:


> hey plumber, *i've seen* you ask the dumbest questions in this forum, you try to over-complicate things...why don't you just stick to turd wrestling?


Not taking sides here, but...............You have no place to sling Shiiiit here yet. Introduce yourself. Get established. Take some Shiiiit. Then sling away.


By the way. Do not speak in Past Tense when you are new!!!!

All this is said in the Spirit of Experience. My Experience of making mistakes here on this OUTSTANDING Forum!


Until then......Welcome to CT. (Introduction is now expected)


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

I think i know the answer to this but I'm just the apprentice. The real sparks should jump in here or just shut this thing down.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm not "drawing" anything when I touch a wire with potential; I'm providing a path for the electrons to flow to and from ground. How much current that flows thru me is limited by the resistance of my body, conductor and motor in between the voltage source and ground. The addition of a load such as light bulb or heating element will only add resistance to the circuit I am apart of and lower the amount of current flow. This of course, is a resistance only circuit. Because things get a little fuzzy for me when it comes to capacitance and inductance, I can not be absolutely sure this holds true when a motor is thrown in the circuit. My logic is that the only way for a motor to "push" more current thru me would be for it to some how increase the voltage in the circuit and I'm sure that could take place.


MALCO.New.York said:


> Simple.....If you touch a Hot that has come Straight from the source, you can ONLY draw a small amount of juice.
> 
> The Motor has drawn far in excess of what your body will allow to be drawn on the circuit and therefore is "spitting out" that current because it HAS to, tis the Nature of electron flow, and in turn has determined the amount of current you are hit with.
> 
> ...


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

Because I'm already at the top of my field and I've grown bored with plumbing. I've always had an interest in electrical as well as hvac.

I'm sorry if my question intimidates you, but if you can't explain the electrical theory behind it, why don't you keep your jabs to your self and let the real sparkys discuse it. :smartass:M'kay



nolatigabait said:


> hey plumber, i've seen you ask the dumbest questions in this forum, you try to over-complicate things...why don't you just stick to turd wrestling?


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

protechplumbing said:


> i'm not "drawing" anything when i touch a wire with potential; i'm providing a path for the electrons to flow to and from ground. How much current that flows thru me is limited by the resistance of my body, conductor and motor in between the voltage source and ground. The addition of a load such as light bulb or heating element will only add resistance to the circuit i am apart of and lower the amount of current flow. This of course, is a resistance only circuit. Because things get a little fuzzy for me when it comes to capacitance and inductance, i can not be absolutely sure this holds true when a motor is thrown in the circuit. My logic is that the only way for a motor to "push" more current thru me would be for it to some how increase the voltage in the circuit and i'm sure that could take place.



ok! Think about "Consumption"


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

nolatigabait said:


> hey plumber, i've seen you ask the dumbest questions in this forum, you try to over-complicate things...why don't you just stick to turd wrestling?


*Respect and be respected...if you don't agree with a person or a post, do not respond. 
*


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

I am not a sparky, but I do have a lot of electrical background, and what comes to mind if a human body is in parallel to a circuit, the flow of current will take the path of least resistance. I also know that anytime you you become part of the circuit, in series, you are in danger of it being the last thing you thought about.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

Well, nothing "consumes" more flow than wire it's self. Adding anything with resistance higher than the wire it's self will only lower current draw. Loads do not "consume", they resist.



MALCO.New.York said:


> ok! Think about "Consumption"


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

But why?



joasis said:


> I am not a sparky, but I do have a lot of electrical background, and what comes to mind if a human body is in parallel to a circuit, the flow of current will take the path of least resistance. I also know that anytime you you become part of the circuit, in series, you are in danger of it being the last thing you thought about.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

protechplumbing said:


> But why?



Because that is the NATURE OF ELECTRONS!!!!!!!!!


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

Once again, I am not a sparky. But a couple of things I believe you are getting thrown off with is ohms law. I thought that ohms law doesn't apply to a/c circuits, and I found another source that confirmed this. Maybe I am way wrong on this but I think I am right. Anyhow, with most residential circuits, you do not adjust the amp draw. The amp draw is a product of voltage and resistance. The higher the voltage, the lower the amp draw. Provided the resistance is the same. You could run a 75 gallon water heater on a 110 circuit, but the amp draw would be prohibitive. So, to keep the amps down, certain appliances run on 220-240.

The reasoning as to why a neutral can bite harder than the hot is... All 110 circuits within the house are indirectly tied into one neutral. So, you may get not only a jolt of the circuit you are working with, but also you are getting a jolt from another load within the house. 

Am I close?


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

protechplumbing said:


> Well, nothing "consumes" more flow than wire it's self. Adding anything with resistance higher than the wire it's self will only lower current draw. Loads do not "consume", they resist.


If that were the case Electricity would be perpetual, free and lots of fun!!!

You REALLY have a bunch to learn, as do I, about Electricity!

Resistance IS PART of the Consumption Equation! Wires being, in a properly laid out system, the SMALLEST factor. Hell!!!! Even ambient air temperature has an effect on electron flow (resistance).

I am out of this dead end unless something ground breaking occurs. 


I know that you are asking questions to elicit answers. But geeeees!


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

flashheatingand said:


> once again, i am not a sparky. But a couple of things i believe you are getting thrown off with is ohms law. I thought that ohms law doesn't apply to a/c circuits, and i found another source that confirmed this. Maybe i am way wrong on this but i think i am right. Anyhow, with most residential circuits, you do not adjust the amp draw. The amp draw is a product of voltage and resistance. the higher the voltage, the lower the amp draw. Provided the resistance is the same. you could run a 75 gallon water heater on a 110 circuit, but the amp draw would be prohibitive. So, to keep the amps down, certain appliances run on 220-240.
> 
> The reasoning as to why a neutral can bite harder than the hot is... All 110 circuits within the house are indirectly tied into one neutral. So, you may get not only a jolt of the circuit you are working with, but also you are getting a jolt from another load within the house.
> 
> Am i close?


 
say what?!?!


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

> The reasoning as to why a neutral can bite harder than the hot is... All 110 circuits within the house are indirectly tied into one neutral. So, you may get not only a jolt of the circuit you are working with, but also you are getting a jolt from another load within the house.
> 
> Am I close?[/


QUOTE]

That's what i'm thinking. Thats why you don't hijack neutrals and why the 2008 code has the breaker arms of the "multi wire branch circuit" breakers tied together. But i think the hijacked neutrals has the biggest risk of getting knocked on your a$$.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

Yeah, if there was no resistance, capacitive and inductive reactance.



MALCO.New.York said:


> If that were the case Electricity would be perpetual, free and lots of fun!!!
> 
> You REALLY have a bunch to learn, as do I, about Electricity!
> 
> ...


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

acrwc10 said:


> Your hopes are about to be answered.:laughing:
> The neutral is not a "grounding conductor" it is a *grounded *conductor, this is very important to understand the difference. The ground conductor should have zero current on it unless there is a fault ( short circuit or ground fault ) The *grounded conductor* is a phase conductor that has been intentionally connected to Ground. Since the earth has high resistance it is not a conductor, we only connect to earth to allow lightning and very high utility voltage to go to earth.
> The *grounded conductor* in most installations is the neutral conductor of the system, although in some systems it could be a "hot" phase conductor like a 480 volt corner grounded delta system, not one you will see much if ever. When in a house or office building you will come across many "multi wire branch circuits "MWBC". These are multiple phase conductors "hots" that share one neutral conductor (when you look at the over head service conductors coming into a house you will see 2 "hots" and 1 neutral this is a Multi wire circuit) If you touch both phase conductors "hots" at the same time you will receive a good 208 to 240 volt shock. Since these 2 hots share the same "neutral" and are on different phases,they complete the circuit at the point the separate "hots" come together at the neutral, if you open the neutral and get in series with the hots "*POW*" you get the full voltage of the MWBC not just the voltage of one phase conductor. This is the "simple explanation" it is not completely accurate because there are different conditions and different systems that change some of what I have said.
> In a nut shell plumbers should not open neutrals.


Electricians deal with electrical issues. I have no business running a circuit, or altering anything electrical at a customers house. However, it is a good thing that plumbers, hvac guys, carpenters...etc have at least a working knowlege of electrical fundamentals. Plumbers deal with water heaters, and pumps, so it would behoove them to know more than "stay away from the stuff". We deal with motors, so we need to know some basic stuff. It's not like we are trying to take your work away, or could for that matter, it's just good to know.

Now for the neutral matter. I understand it is a grounded conductor. It is necessary to have a grounded conductor for a 110 circuit right?. Neutral is the propper grounded conductor to be utilized. The Gfi circuit or ground wire is just a circuit to ground (safety) by the house. The only purpose of the ground circuit is to dump excess high voltage and to trip any circuit breakers should they draw any current. 

Can the ground circuit be used as a grounded conductor?


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

flashheatingand said:


> Once again, I am not a sparky. But a couple of things I believe you are getting thrown off with is ohms law. I thought that ohms law doesn't apply to a/c circuits, and I found another source that confirmed this. Maybe I am way wrong on this but I think I am right. Anyhow, with most residential circuits, you do not adjust the amp draw. The amp draw is a product of voltage and resistance. The higher the voltage, the lower the amp draw. Provided the resistance is the same. You could run a 75 gallon water heater on a 110 circuit, but the amp draw would be prohibitive. So, to keep the amps down, certain appliances run on 220-240.
> 
> The reasoning as to why a neutral can bite harder than the hot is... All 110 circuits within the house are indirectly tied into one neutral. So, you may get not only a jolt of the circuit you are working with, but also you are getting a jolt from another load within the house.
> 
> Am I close?


Asuming your logic, you could argue that half of the 110 circuits are fed from the sam bus on the panel.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

joasis said:


> make it 20 amps and 240 volts and it can kill you graveyard dead. If I remember correctly, it was described as voltage is the pressure in the line, and amperage is the size of the pipe carrying the pressure. Now that is simple.


If I remember correctly, 50 volts and 5 mA is considered the threshold of lethal voltage.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

JumboJack said:


> Where is MD when ya' need him?


He was on quite a bit today. I think he deliberately avoided commenting here.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

protechplumbing said:


> OK. Let's start over. Can any sparkys demonstrate with in mathematical terms or a diagram how someone could receive a shock from a neutral that would be worse than a shock from the hot on the same circuit?


I'll try. ..circuit 1= hot, load, and open neutral. The maximum shock you can get off this neutral is "X"...

Now you have circuit 2 which =2 hots, 2 loads, one shared open neutral. The maximum shock you can get off of this neutral is 2 times X or "2X"


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

protechplumbing said:


> OK. Let's start over. Can any sparkys demonstrate with in mathematical terms or a diagram how someone could receive a shock from a neutral that would be worse than a shock from the hot on the same circuit?


You should consider taking a night school course on electrical, they most likely offer one at the local JC. I don't mean this as an insult if you are truly interested in learning more it is a great place to get started. Unless you like getting insulted by knuckle heads from all over the country on line. :whistling


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

what the guy us asking is has nothing to do with a MWBC. I have been told the same thing for years that you will get bit harder on a neutral than you will with a hot. The problem is, there is no definition to how you are getting shocked.

Like I said before, unless you have an open neutral, you are not getting shocked by touching the neutral. So, why people say you get bit harder by a neutral is when you do get shocked by a neutral, it is on an open loaded neutral. The full flow of the circuit passes through you. You are exposed to the full voltage and max current the circuit will flow.


When people get shocked by a hot, many varaibles come in to play so it is difficult to quantify current and voltage you would be subjected to without those variables but bottom line; you will not recieve a shock any greater than you would on the open neutral situation but you could very well recieve much less energy depending on the exact situation.

That is, in its simplest terms, how a neutral is often said to bite you harder than a hot.

So with that, I am going to bed. I have to get up for work in 5 hours and God knows I need all the beauty sleep I can get.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

acrwc10 said:


> Unless you like getting insulted by knuckle heads from all over the country on line. :whistling


I am a Knucklehead!!! How 'bout you???


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

MALCO.New.York said:


> I am a Knucklehead!!! How 'bout you???


Well of course, you don't think I would exclude myself from the ranks do you.:jester:


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

protechplumbing said:


> The reason their are 2 voltages is because the motor windings have 2 different taps for 2 line voltages. Different wiring is used for different voltages.


Look at the fla or rla rtings on the nameplate. Yes, two taps for two voltages, but the lower rla is for 220v circuit and the higher rla is if the motor is run at 110v.... Just check it out if you come across a motor that can run on either 110 or 220.


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## flashheatingand (May 3, 2008)

MALCO.New.York said:


> Watts are the same, give or take, but NOT the Amperes nor the Volts! It is called Ohms Law.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know about ohms law The e=I*R thing doesn't apply with a/c. It's Monday morning and I don't know how to figure the vt thing right now. We both probably agree that this isn't about formulas, and I am not smart enough to explain why. I just know that one motor that is designed to work on either 110 0r 220. The amp draw is lower when run on 220.

I have believed that is the inherant advantage of 220 over 110. If I am wrong on this, well, it will kinda rock my world:shutup:


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

I'll have to disagree. 2 loads in parallel don't make the voltage any higher on the neutral any higher than the hot they are fed from.



K2 said:


> I'll try. ..circuit 1= hot, load, and open neutral. The maximum shock you can get off this neutral is "X"...
> 
> Now you have circuit 2 which =2 hots, 2 loads, one shared open neutral. The maximum shock you can get off of this neutral is 2 times X or "2X"


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

flashheatingand said:


> I know about ohms law The e=I*R thing doesn't apply with a/c. It's Monday morning and I don't know how to figure the vt thing right now. We both probably agree that this isn't about formulas, and I am not smart enough to explain why. I just know that one motor that is designed to work on either 110 0r 220. The amp draw is lower when run on 220.
> 
> I have believed that is the inherant advantage of 220 over 110. If I am wrong on this, well, it will kinda rock my world:shutup:


The current is lower with higher voltage because of ohm's law.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

protechplumbing said:


> I'll have to disagree. 2 loads in parallel don't make the voltage any higher on the neutral any higher than the hot they are fed from.


The voltage won't be higher, but the current will. Voltage is the same on all paralellel branches. Current is not, however. If we call the point where two branches meet 1 a node:

The total current flowing _into_ a node is equal to the total current flowing _out_ of a node.

So if going in you in you have 2 amps on each branch, you have 4 amps coming out on the neutral. I can't remember the exact name but I think it is called Kierchoff's current law.


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

We need someone here to actually test these theories out and post their results.*



* if not killed during experiment.






.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

220 is TWO 110 HOTS. Hence the Double Breaker that is attached to a 110 Supply Bar. It looks like ALL THE REST of the Breakers, just Doubled with a Coupling Bar or Fabricated as a Double.

So no there is no Greater Voltage, just a double supply of it.


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## boman47k (Oct 13, 2006)

Getting a charge through a neutral because it is tied in on the same bus as the other neutrals! Hmm, now I am a little leery of touching a neutral even though I have the breaker for that circuit off. :sad:

Btw, I do not attempt electrical work for the general puplic, only my own.


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## househelper (Mar 20, 2007)

fungku said:


> The voltage won't be higher, but the current will. Voltage is the same on all paralellel branches. Current is not, however. If we call the point where two branches meet 1 a node:
> 
> The total current flowing _into_ a node is equal to the total current flowing _out_ of a node.
> 
> So if going in you in you have 2 amps on each branch, you have 4 amps coming out on the neutral. I can't remember the exact name but I think it is called Kierchoff's current law.


If this is a MWBC you are talking about, the current on the neutral is the difference between the current on each hot. If you have 2A on each leg as in your example, you have 0A on the neutral.


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

I am not about to read through 75 posts, but from what I have read, the plumber has it the most right.

The terms "pushing and Pulling" should be avoided. 

Motors do not pull or push the amps.

Ohms Law certainly applies to AC circuits

There is only a "potential" voltage. The current is determined only by the impedance of the circuit.

Having a motor in the circuit instead of a purely resistive load does not change anything. Total circuit impedance is determined by resistance which is very small, and inductive reactance which is proportionally very large. The 2 combined are called impedance.

The neutral shouldn't be hot, so therefore is is not hotter than the ungrounded conductor.

The best way to kill yourself would be to grab the ungrounded (hot) conductor with one hand and the grounded (neutral) conductor with the other hand. You would now be directly in series with the x-former with no additional loads (resistance/impedance) to reduce the current flow.

This has changed many times over the years but at this time the accepted (death current) is 50 milliamps.

Ohms law holds, Kirchoff's law holds. I think the plumber should be an electrician.


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

MALCO.New.York said:


> 220 is TWO 110 HOTS. Hence the Double Breaker that is attached to a 110 Supply Bar. It looks like ALL THE REST of the Breakers, just Doubled with a Coupling Bar or Fabricated as a Double.
> 
> So no the is no Greater Voltage, just a double supply of it.



TWO 110 HOTS = Two ungrounded conductors

Supply Bar = Buss

Coupling bar = Common trip


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Ponsse said:


> This has changed many times over the years but at this time the accepted (death current) is 50 milliamps.


I thought the current threshold limit is 5mA, with GFCI devices [Class A] tripping in the 4 - 6 mA range :whistling

http://www.ul.com/regulators/ode/0201.pdf


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

Celtic said:


> I thought the current threshold limit is 5mA, with GFCI devices [Class A] tripping in the 4 - 6 mA range :whistling
> 
> http://www.ul.com/regulators/ode/0201.pdf


 
GFCI's trip in the 4-6 milliamp range because at that level it won't kill you. 

WTF do you think they would set the trip at the point it kills you :whistling 

I forget all the ranges but I believe at around 20 milliamps your muscles lock on, at 50 your heart goes goofy.

When I was first taught, they said it was 100 milliamps, I guess the newer generation is weaker.


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Magnettica said:


> TWO 110 HOTS = Two ungrounded conductors
> 
> Supply Bar = Buss
> 
> Coupling bar = Common trip




Thank You for the correct terminology.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks for your support. I am currently apprenticing under an electrician and it's been really fun and mentally challenging. I can't wait until I get to see some 3 phase stuff and high voltage transformers. The more I learn the more respect I have for sparkys that really know their stuff.



Ponsse said:


> I am not about to read through 75 posts, but from what I have read, the plumber has it the most right.
> 
> The terms "pushing and Pulling" should be avoided.
> 
> ...


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## Magnettica (Dec 19, 2006)

Now imagine if someone incorrectly bonded a neutral to an equipment ground up stream say in a sub panel you'd have current flowing on metal parts in the building. Not good. NEC article 250.6 addresses objectionable current flow.


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

protechplumbing said:


> Thanks for your support. I am currently apprenticing under an electrician and it's been really fun and mentally challenging. I can't wait until I get to see some 3 phase stuff and high voltage transformers. The more I learn the more respect I have for sparkys that really know their stuff.


 
Unless your journeyman/master is exceptional, I would suggest that you take some classes in electrical theory. Most electrician's can pull wire, but alot fewer know theory, and alot more have forgotten their theory after a few years pulling wire.

Unless you apprentice in the industrial field where you can spend some time on theory and troubleshooting, all you will learn is code. Code is fine, but I like to know what's actually going on instead of just learning rules.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

fungku said:


> The voltage won't be higher, but the current will. Voltage is the same on all paralellel branches. Current is not, however. If we call the point where two branches meet 1 a node:
> 
> The total current flowing _into_ a node is equal to the total current flowing _out_ of a node.
> 
> So if going in you in you have 2 amps on each branch, you have 4 amps coming out on the neutral. I can't remember the exact name but I think it is called Kierchoff's current law.


You're dealing with DC calculations in what you are saying OR 2 loads on the same phase from the panel (which we know we would not do) . Actually, since we have AC, the current on the line after the two loads will be the difference of the current of the two lines. That is how you can have a #12 neutral with 2 20 amp circuits using #12 wire.


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## Winchester (Jun 29, 2008)

nap said:


> You're dealing with DC calculations in what you are saying OR 2 loads on the same phase from the panel (which we know we would not do) . Actually, since we have AC, the current on the line after the two loads will be the difference of the current of the two lines. That is how you can have a #12 neutral with 2 20 amp circuits using #12 wire.


Ugh, you're right. That was a dumb mistake 
Sorry, it's been over 3 years since I've taken any electrical courses and things get fuzzy after that long.


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Neutral is at most a few volts above ground under heavy load. If the neutral resistance is 0.05 ohm and you stand barefoot on the ground and touch the neutral, you've effectively formed a parallel circuit of 0.05 ohm resistor and a 5 kohm resistor. 

If the neutral conection breaks, then you've basically got a circuit that's 

hot---^^^^load^^^^you^^^^ground


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

And how is that any worse than hot^^^you^^^ground ?


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## SonoranShocker (Oct 28, 2008)

*Problem solved...*

Ok, Im here to solve the problem for you. Ive read enough.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>READY?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Here it comes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
SHUT OFF THE POWER BEFORE WORKING ON THE CIRCUIT, END OF PROBLEM!!!!!....LOL

(Sorry, I couldnt resist any longer...:clap


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## Eddy Current (Nov 19, 2006)

The way I see it,



> hot^^^you^^^ground


Minimal current, depends on your resistance. Full voltage




> hot---^^^^load^^^^you^^^^ground


In series with load = current is the same anywhere in the circuit so you receive whatever current the load is putting out. However the voltage at load is different than what you receive.



Current kills right?


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

^^^^Correct. All the way! ^^^^


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## Electric_Light (Nov 25, 2007)

Let's just call the hot upstream, ground downstream. So, if you touch the downstream side of the load while you're grounded, your resistance is so significant compared to the wire that it's insignificant. Now, if there's a break in the neutral line further downstream, the resistance becomes nearly infinite, so if you touch the downstream side of load, the current will seek a path of least resistance, which is you.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

Eddy Current said:


> Current kills right?


That is like saying speed kills.
Under the RIGHT conditions, speed can kill.

Current is just one element in the equation, other factors include:
- path current takes through the body
- duration of time body in contact with current


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## critter (Nov 27, 2008)

The pipemaster made the main point in the fact that 60 cylcle AC current is neither pushed nor pulled because the electrons are reversing direction 60 times per second anyway. The issue with AC circuit contact is simply a matter of your conductance circumstances such as surface sweat, internal hydration, electrolytes in the body which varies among individuals, and what you are in contact with. If you do not have a path to neutral or ground, none of the wires will shock you unless you touch more than one. I think the big difference in shock is the "being shocked" that you got improperly in contact with a neutral wire and a return path. No one expects to get nailed by the neutral, unless the circuit is faulty. Why play with live circuits, anyway??


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

There is simply no way that an open neutral can hit you any harder than the hot conductor of that circuit. Voltage drops only when current flows. If the neutral is open, there is no current. The voltage drop at the real load is 0 V. 

Since (V-drop) at equipment equals 0, (V) across the open equals line voltage. Insert your body resistance across the open, and, for all intents and purposes, the amount of current flow is almost exactly the same as the current that would flow if you got across the hot and ground.

Touching an intact and current-carrying neutral will cause a current to flow through your body that equals the voltage drop due to neutral conductor impedance divided by body resistance. That is, very little, like not enough to even tingle. The voltage drop due to line impedance should be almost nothing to a few volts. Even if the neutral itself had a voltage to ground potential of 12 V, you would find it mildly tingling. Has any ever gotten seriously shocked on a 12 V car battery? No.

This is physics, not some mythological tale that electricians pass on to unsuspecting apprentices. The reason a neutral _appears_ to zap you more is psychological. Up until that point in your career, all the neutrals you ever encountered were warm and fuzzy and at ground potential. You treated them differently than wires known to be hot. Then, it all changed. You grabbed a white or gray wire and *BLAMMO:cursing:*. To you, this was the worst damn thing that has happened thus far. 

At first you don't really understand what happened, it wasn't supposed to do that... In your mind now, that mystery of why it happened evolves into a self-realization that "Wow! I think that neutral got me worse than any hot I have encountered! A neutral must hit harder..."

No.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

InPhase277 said:


> There is simply no way that an open neutral can hit you any harder than the hot conductor of that circuit. Voltage drops only when current flows. If the neutral is open, there is no current. The voltage drop at the real load is 0 V.
> 
> Since (V-drop) at equipment equals 0, (V) across the open equals line voltage. Insert your body resistance across the open, and, for all intents and purposes, the amount of current flow is almost exactly the same as the current that would flow if you got across the hot and ground.
> 
> ...


Thank you!!


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> The reason a neutral _appears_ to zap you more is psychological.


Finally! Very good post; I was blown away by how long this whole thing went on. :thumbsup:


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## mickeyco (May 13, 2006)

InPhase277 said:


> Has any ever gotten seriously shocked on a 12 V car battery? No.


Yes they have.






.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

mickeyco said:


> Yes they have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shock caused by 12 V battery:


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

InPhase277 said:


> Shock caused by 12 V battery:


Is that Mickey and his brother??:laughing:


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

MALCO.New.York said:


> ABSOLUTELY empty.
> 
> 
> There must be something to conduct the Electrons for them to be present. If this were NOT the case, your Electric bill would increase when no appliances or elements were engaged because the flow of Electricity MUST give off heat or other end products and therefore "Consumption". So..... Yes! Empty!!!'
> ...


 
ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

Good electrical conductors, like copper, have an outer valence shell that isn't full. It is therefore fairly easy to "knock the outer electrons" out of there shell. Copper atoms *always* have electrons in there outer valence shell. When you have a complete circuit with a potential across it (voltage), you can cause the electrons to flow from one atom to the next, each one passing it's electrons to the next one. The term is "electron flow". 

You never don't have any electrons, if you didn't then it wouldn't be copper, it would be something else.

That is why electricity is almost instantaneous ( actually I was taught that it travels at the speed of light, but that is beyond me), as one electron enters the wire at one end, it moves every electron in the wire down one space. The analogy we were taught was using golf balls, if you have a line of golf balls, and you push the ball at one end, it simutanously moves the ball at the other end of the line, no matter how long the line is, or how many balls there are.

*The wire is not empty *


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm no quantum physics wiz but I think your a bit confused. First of all the motion of electron within their atomic orbital’s is not considered "electron flow", it's heat. Second, when all electron motion stops, you will end up with a Bose-Einstein considate which is simply 1 of 5 states of baryonic matter. As soon as the considate gets some heat back in it the material in question will simply revert back to being a solid, liquid or gas (3 other states of matter). I would hardly call that "crumbling".

Now for electron flow. Electron flow is defined as the mass movement of electrons from one valence shell of one atom to an adjacent one. That is what we are referring to when we describe electron flow in an electrical circuit. Electron flow does not occur unless there exists a potential difference to cause the flow to occur.



MALCO.New.York said:


> It is the inherent Nature of Electrons to flow. Even at Absolute Zero, there exists minuscule Electron Flow around the Nuclei of ALL Matter.
> 
> Without this flow, immediate decay occurs and Matter literally crumbles. Electronic Motion (as in Electron Flow) is the "Glue" of all that is Three Dimensional and Physically Tangible.
> 
> As for Electrical (as in Lights and Motors), in a circuit made of Copper Wire or the like that has no NEED/Draw/Conductance/Consumption at a particular time, there are NO free Electrons. Only once a load is applied do they flow and occupy the wire.


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## protechplumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

That is absolutely correct. Spoken like a true professional Ponsse.



Ponsse said:


> ABSOLUTELY WRONG.
> 
> Good electrical conductors, like copper, have an outer valence shell that isn't full. It is therefore fairly easy to "knock the outer electrons" out of there shell. Copper atoms *always* have electrons in there outer valence shell. When you have a complete circuit with a potential across it (voltage), you can cause the electrons to flow from one atom to the next, each one passing it's electrons to the next one. The term is "electron flow".
> 
> ...


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

:thumbsup:And since these are likely AC systems we are talking about, it makes even less sense to say that a "neutral" hits you harder. When we talk about the neutral, we are talking about the grounded conductor. What does that mean as far as the load carrying circuit? Nada. Sticking one side of a circuit into the dirt doesn't change the laws that a properly functioning circuit operates by.

For 1/2 cycle, the current is moving in on one conductor and out on the other. And it reverses every 1/2 cycle. This means that one half the time, current travels to the load on the hot conductor and back on the neutral. But the other half, current travels to the load on the neutral and out on the hot. The two conductors swap roles every half cycle, therefore, the two are equivalent. A a neutral MUST hit you exactly the same as the hot for that circuit hits you, because current travels both directions, the two wires must be equivalent. Grounding one at the service equipment doesn't change a thing.

You guys were talking some big physics earlier, here's relativity for ya


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Ponsse said:


> Good electrical conductors, like copper, have an outer valence shell that isn't full.


Thenk yew. My schooling in all that took place back in the late 60s and early 70s, and I have to admit quite a bit of that theory material got lost in the shuffle of ~30 years of practical electronics work.

But even though I swing a hammer these days, I doubt I'll ever lose the gut knowledge all those theories and equations led to. :thumbsup:


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Tinstaafl said:


> Thenk yew. My schooling in all that took place back in the late 60s and early 70s, and I have to admit quite a bit of that theory material got lost in the shuffle of ~30 years of practical electronics work.
> 
> But even though I swing a hammer these days, I doubt I'll ever lose the gut knowledge all those theories and equations led to. :thumbsup:


The best way I can imagine what's going on inside a conductor is to think of the free electrons within the metal as like a liquid. In fact, it behaves so much like a liquid that the same fluid equations apply! Anyhow, this liquid has a negative charge, so when you connect the conductor to the positive pole of the battery, the first electrons closest to it move, creating a "positive vacuum". The electrons nearest the vacuum rush to fill it. And so it goes all the way down the conductor, when at the end the last electrons have moved away from the end of the wire leaving it positive in potential. If you connect it to the negative terminal a current will flow as electrons move from the negative pole into the positive vacuum conductor and on into the positive pole.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Here is something on the movement of electrons with copper atoms.

http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/HighSchool/Electricity/valenceshell.htm

So to me it is the unstable electron in the outer shel that does the moving. all the other electrons are happy where they are. In non conductive material you have all happy electrons so they don't move much.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> The best way I can imagine what's going on inside a conductor is to think of the free electrons within the metal as like a liquid.


That's the easiest, and works quite well for DC and basic AC. Gets a bit more convoluted when you start dealing with impedance.

You're actually describing current flow as movement of positive charges, if you really think about it. Nothing wrong with that; it was actually taught that way as late as the 40s and 50s. I learned the "newer" way, to think of the negative pole as pushing. Makes no difference; the equations still work.

There's also a third way, which for some reason seems harder for beginners to grasp instinctively, but in practical terms works just as well. Think of a pump with a loop of pipe hooked to the guzinta and the guzouta. When you start the pump, does it push the water, or pull it?

Irrelevant, really. Whatever's easiest for you to visualize is best. :thumbsup:

Thread drift? What thread drift? :whistling


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Happy electrons? Next we'll be talking about charm and grace! :laughing:


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

> Thread drift? What thread drift?


I suppose if you understood the movement of electrons you would understand getting or not getting the bigger zap off the neutral. I however understand neither but plan to understand these things before my electrons cease moving or become deceased.


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

Tinstaafl said:


> You're actually describing current flow as movement of positive charges, if you really think about it. Nothing wrong with that; it was actually taught that way as late as the 40s and 50s. I learned the "newer" way, to think of the negative pole as pushing. Makes no difference; the equations still work.


Not really. Think about it. The electrons are doing the flowing. So the current is made of electrons. In my description, I connected the wire to the positive pole first, and the electrons moved in response to the positive charge. If I had hooked the wire to the negative pole first, the electrons would have moved away in response to the negative charge.

What I'm saying is, an electron current moves due to the combined action of the positive AND the negative forces within the battery. I am not trying to say that current flows from + to -, however.


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## Ponsse (Dec 12, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> What I'm saying is, an electron current moves due to the combined action of the positive AND the negative forces within the battery. I am not trying to say that current flows from + to -, however.


 
People used to think that electricity flowed from the positive to the negative, that was a mistaken belief, we now refer the that as " *the Hole flow theory".* Because if you visualize it, if an electron moves one way, the hole where it was looks like it is moving in the opposite direction.

We now know electricity moves from the negative to the positive, which we refer to as " *the Electron Flow theory*". Electrons have a negative charge, and they move towards a more positive charge, thuse negative to positive.

Interesting? Or not?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> Not really. Think about it. The electrons are doing the flowing. So the current is made of electrons. In my description, I connected the wire to the positive pole first, and the electrons moved in response to the positive charge.


Yes, the electrons moved, creating a positive-charge "hole". Each electron moves to a neighboring atom (or thereabouts), but the "hole" travels down the length of the wire. Thus it can be seen as current traveling from positive to negative. That's the way they taught it to our grandads.



> What I'm saying is, an electron current moves due to the combined action of the positive AND the negative forces within the battery. I am not trying to say that current flows from + to -, however.


Okay, if you want to specify "electron current" as opposed to "hole current", which is equally valid, I'll grant your point. Electrons do flow from negative to positive according to current [contemporary, that is] theory. My main point is though, that this is all semantics and word games. *It makes no difference.* 

The equations still work, no matter which way you're most comfortable picturing it. :thumbsup:


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

K2 said:


> I however understand neither but plan to understand these things before my electrons cease moving or become deceased.


Good luck with that. What we discuss here is incredibly watered-down theory largely influenced by empirical data. The sharpest minds on the planet are in equally sharp disagreement as to the real nature of matter and the universe as a whole. 

But I happen to know that the answer is 42. :thumbsup:


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Tinstaafl said:


> Good luck with that. What we discuss here is incredibly watered-down theory largely influenced by empirical data. The sharpest minds on the planet are in equally sharp disagreement as to the real nature of matter and the universe as a whole.
> 
> But I happen to know that the answer is 42. :thumbsup:


Well maybe i can understand getting the bigger/ lesser shock off the neutral. ... The answer is not 42 but 4 over 2.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

K2 said:


> The answer is not 42 but 4 over 2.


No, silly. That's a 2x4. Whack! :blink:


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## InPhase277 (Feb 9, 2008)

K2 said:


> Well maybe i can understand getting the bigger/ lesser shock off the neutral


Understand this: the shock from the neutral CANNOT be greater than the shock received from the hot. See post #124.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

InPhase277 said:


> Understand this: the shock from the neutral CANNOT be greater than the shock received from the hot. See post #124.


Yeah I understand now. Tnx. What happened to Malco?? He go to work or something??


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

InPhase277 said:


> Understand this: the shock from the neutral CANNOT be greater than the shock received from the hot. See post #124.


Well, I think i understand one hot and one neutral but, what about two hots and one neutral , or three hots and one neutral. I'm not quite seeing the picture there. I'm sure I'm missing something because the neutral wire isn't upsized but is there some explanation an 8th year apprentice might understand?? Tnx..


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

K2 said:


> Well, I think i understand one hot and one neutral but, what about two hots and one neutral , or three hots and one neutral.


What's the difference? Two or three hots coming down to the same neutral will still not provide any more voltage/shock hazard than one. Unless one of them is higher voltage than the others.

Draw a schematic; then we can discuss.


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