# Osha



## robcon (Oct 14, 2010)

Can anyone throw some suggestions my way about safety with OSHA? I live in central Illinois. in my spare time on the weekends for the last month and a half, I have been helping some people from my church with their houses that were either damaged or destroyed by the tornado that hit Washington.

A lot of volunteers that are in the trades are getting together Monday and were going to start framing a house for a family that was terribly under-insured. The problem is that OSHA has been handing out fines.... even to home owners that have relatives helping them.

When I was in school, I got my OSHA 30 hour card. I know we need harnesses, hard hats, boots, good electrical cords and tools, and proper ladders, scaffolding, etc. Is there anything else I am missing? I would hate for any of us to get fines just for volunteering.

A little background on me.... I mostly do remodeling and foundations/concrete work. I havent done production framing on homes since I was in college so if anyone has any suggestions, it would be appreciated. I'm currently going thru my old manual now.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm pretty sure they can't do chit if it's just a bunch of people working on a friends house. It's not there occupation and if for some reason I got a fine for that I would fight it to my death


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

I do not think that is legal. Is the church a 503c? Was any compensation given?


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## robcon (Oct 14, 2010)

I was thinking the exact same thing. The home owner that I know got a fine for himself, his brother-in-law, and a couple of his friends for being on their roof without being tied off. I'm almost positive I remember reading that you couldn't get in trouble on your own house unless you are acting as a business but I can not find it.


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## robcon (Oct 14, 2010)

Dan_Watson said:


> I do not think that is legal. Is the church a 503c? Was any compensation given?



It is a 503(c). No compensation will be given whatsoever, unless you count lunch and waters. We are supplying our time, tools, nails, etc. Insurance was enough to cover materials for the most part. Some things are being donated.


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

If he was to come by, stop work and ask him for his warrant. Do not start work again until he leaves


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## Dan_Watson (Mar 1, 2008)

Yea, I really do not think OSHA has any right to fine the situations you described. The EPA does though....


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## jlsconstruction (Apr 26, 2011)

Besides my feeling for OSHA you should work as safe as possible though.


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## robcon (Oct 14, 2010)

I agree about working safely... I'm worried about the other rules that they can enforce if they say that we are acting as a business. i.e. must have a toilet on site, fire extinguishers, a safety plan, etc.

Me and the other two that will be on the roof own are own fall arrest gear so that won't be a problem... I just hate the thought of getting a violation for something as simple as not having ear protection or caution tape out.

I appreciate the replies. The house should go up fairly quickly. Just a ranch that is getting trusses. Its my first time working with trusses so at least I'll learn something new.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

robcon said:


> The problem is that OSHA has been handing out fines.... even to home owners that have relatives helping them


Impossible


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

robcon said:


> I was thinking the exact same thing. The home owner that I know got a fine for himself, his brother-in-law, and a couple of his friends for being on their roof without being tied off. I'm almost positive I remember reading that you couldn't get in trouble on your own house unless you are acting as a business but I can not find it.


Impossible


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## robcon (Oct 14, 2010)

I would think the same, except that I know for certain that it happened.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

There is more to the story than you know then. OSHA has jurisdiction only when employees are involved.

It's that simple


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## robcon (Oct 14, 2010)

I will update Monday when I am in town. I do personally know one man that got his fine. He posted a picture of it on Facebook. It was $1100. His day job is in logistics at Caterpillar. Shows what happens when you lend a helping hand sometimes :thumbup: :clap:


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Anti-wingnut said:


> There is more to the story than you know then. OSHA has jurisdiction only when employees are involved.
> 
> It's that simple


"Employee" includes paying the BIL or the buddies a few hundred bucks cash to help out. It doesn't need to be a business. Most OSHA inspectors and most contractors could walk on a site and figure out whether someone was getting paid to be there.

Some states have state OSHA laws that extend rules to some volunteers - volunteer fire departments, for example. But a federal OSHA inspector wouldn't have anything to do with that.


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

robcon said:


> I know we need harnesses, hard hats, boots, good electrical cords and tools, and proper ladders, scaffolding, etc. Is there anything else I am missing?


 You're missing about 100 pages of stuff. Does Illinois have their own state requirements? Call OSHA in your state and ask them, you need the book with all the rules. In Washington we use the WAC, generally speaking, improper fall protection will get you the biggest fines.


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

Maybe it's ME that's the a**hole here, but if I was on my roof (or a buddy's, or anyone's...as long as I wasn't being paid) and OSHA came and started talking to me, my first words would be "get off this PRIVATE property right now, you are trespassing...none of us are being paid....so goodbye"

If they don't leave, call the police and have them arrested for trespassing.

Gov't 'officials' sometimes get it in their head that they are in charge of everything...and it's simply not true.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

CarpenterSFO said:


> "Employee" includes paying the BIL or the buddies a few hundred bucks cash to help out. It doesn't need to be a business. Most OSHA inspectors and most contractors could walk on a site and figure out whether someone was getting paid to be there.
> 
> Some states have state OSHA laws that extend rules to some volunteers - volunteer fire departments, for example. But a federal OSHA inspector wouldn't have anything to do with that.


I just flat out don't believe the story as the OP has related it to us.


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## robcon (Oct 14, 2010)

Anti-wingnut said:


> I just flat out don't believe the story as the OP has related it to us.


I'm not sure why you think a person would come on to an internet forum and post a false story, at the same time asking for a few pointers on what to look for.

Thank you to everyone that had something useful to suggest. Ill update when we are out there with some pictures.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

I just think who ever related the story to you left out crucial details. There is no way to cite a group of friends working on a roof for no monetary consideration.

None


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## CarpenterSFO (Dec 12, 2012)

Decent slide show on scaffolding: https://www.osha.gov/dte/library/scaffolds/scaffolding/index.html

Start by keeping people from doing things and getting into situations that they're not able to handle. That's the risk with volunteers.

Good for you for helping out some folks in trouble. Keep safe.


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## skillman (Sep 23, 2011)

Neighbors do this a lot they call OSHA on people they don't like . OSHA does not just drive around and look for a guy and truck .


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

> Question 1: Do OSHA regulations using the word "employee" also apply to volunteers?
> 
> Reply: The applicability of OSHA standards and regulations in specific situations depends on whether the individuals in a workplace are employers or employees within the meaning of the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 (OSH Act.) OSHA regulations interpreting the coverage provisions of the OSH Act provide that any charitable or non-profit organization which employs one or more employees is covered under the Act and is required to comply with its provisions and with OSHA standards and regulations (see 29 CFR §1975.4(b)(4)). Thus, if your organization has an employment relationship with at least one worker, it qualifies as an employer and would be required to comply with the provisions of the OSH Act and with OSHA standards and regulations that affect the working conditions of its employees.
> 
> In general, whether an employment relationship exists is a complex legal determination that must be made on a case-by-case basis by applying certain common law principles to the specific facts. However if, as you describe in your letter, your warehouse staff a*re volunteers who receive no monetary or other compensation, it is OSHA's view that they are not employees subject to coverage under the federal OSH Act.*


https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25097


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## robcon (Oct 14, 2010)

Well, nothing really excited happened so far this week. We got the walls and all trusses up. Most of the osb is up... hopefully they can get that knocked out by lunch tomorrow. The turn out for volunteers was pretty poor but may have been a good thing. The temperatures were good but we have had a few days where it was just a little too windy.

The only people that have stopped by so far have been a high school student taking pictures for an assignment, a building inspector just being nosey and wanting to chat with us and someone from our local newspaper. The inspector did confirm that osha was in town checking for violations but no one ever approached us. Today was my last day out there. I appreciate the responses from this thread.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

skillman said:


> Neighbors do this a lot they call OSHA on people they don't like . OSHA does not just drive around and look for a guy and truck .


within the last month they have been driving around an area in which i work and nabbed several companies. Apparently they relocated their office from a highway location to an office further off the highway and everyone in between is getting caught.

There was a guy at the lumberyard complaining about it a few days ago. Buying rubber boots, gloves, hardhats, signs, marking tape etc.


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## Reg (Dec 15, 2013)

Perhaps the OSHA officer is an impostor! Good on you for your volunteer work. Sorry you got a crummy turnout.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

robcon said:


> I will update Monday when I am in town. I do personally know one man that got his fine. He posted a picture of it on Facebook. It was $1100. His day job is in logistics at Caterpillar. Shows what happens when you lend a helping hand sometimes :thumbup: :clap:


You were going to update us on the individual you know who got a fine by OSHA even though everyone was a volunteer? What happened?


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## robcon (Oct 14, 2010)

Those men actually were fined. Each man's total was $1100. From what I have been told, the fines are a bunch of crap considering they are just helping out. He said they are all going to refuse to pay it. Apparently their advice came from a district attorney one of the men know.

There have been a couple "contractors" that have gotten decent fines out there though. They are the guys that chase storm work.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

What is the basis for the Occupational Safety and Health Administration fining somebody who was not, as you told us, an employee?


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## robcon (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't know. I don't work for osha. I don't have all of the answers here


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## BamBamm5144 (Jul 12, 2008)

robcon said:


> I don't know. I don't work for osha. I don't have all of the answers here


Everything you have said about them being fined completely contradicts everything the head guy of OSHA said here when I had my meeting with him a few years ago.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

BamBamm5144 said:


> Everything you have said about them being fined completely contradicts everything the head guy of OSHA said here when I had my meeting with him a few years ago.


Here's your answer



robcon said:


> I don't know. I don't work for osha. I don't have all of the answers here


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## Robinson1 (Mar 14, 2014)

jproffer said:


> Maybe it's ME that's the a**hole here, but if I was on my roof (or a buddy's, or anyone's...as long as I wasn't being paid) and OSHA came and started talking to me, my first words would be "get off this PRIVATE property right now, you are trespassing...none of us are being paid....so goodbye"
> 
> If they don't leave, call the police and have them arrested for trespassing.
> 
> Gov't 'officials' sometimes get it in their head that they are in charge of everything...and it's simply not true.


Sounds good to me.


Man I would hate to live where OSHA cruises the neighborhood looking for people to write up. Some of you guys have it bad in that respect. 

In 10 years I've been checked by OSHA exactly once. Inspector asked me where my employee's were. I told him I was a one man show. He glanced around the site and told me to have a nice day.

MSHA on the other hand.  Apparently you are not suppose to work on the scale house of a local mine unless you have a MSHA certification. :no:


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## jproffer (Feb 19, 2005)

Robinson1 said:


> Sounds good to me.
> 
> 
> Man I would hate to live where OSHA cruises the neighborhood looking for people to write up. Some of you guys have it bad in that respect.
> ...


That's true........sorta. If you've been task trained for the part of the mine you're going to be working in, and the access and egress to/from that area, and how to deal with large haul traffic...then you should be fine. All this has to be documented and it usually takes (at least at our mine) about an hour to sit everyone down and go over all this.

MSHA don't care if you're an employee, contractor, visitor, owner....doesn't matter...if you're on mine property, you fall under their law.


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