# Tractor/Skiddy/ need direction



## BreyerConstruct (May 22, 2006)

Hey guys:

Here's the scoop:

In the next month or so, assuming a financial institution sees things our way, we'll be looking to buy or lease a machine. I'm struggling to know which way to look, and could use some guidance.

We're primarily a deck building company. For our work, an auger is a must. it's got to be 16", and it's got to be powerful- those little 2-man jobbers won't cut it (we've tried). The stand-on Toro's won't work, as they're not quite strong enough. The only machine that's been close to good is a Thomas diesel stand-on machine.

It would be nice to have the ability to lift materials up to a 8-12' off-the-ground deck with a machine.

It'd be nice to use a machine to move skids of salt in the winter, rather than hand unloading & loading (we'll prolly use 12-18 skids this year).

We occasionally put in a patio, walkway, or small landscape retaining wall, and the ability to move materials around, cut out sod, and do some excavation would be nice.

This year for the above tasks we've rented a walk-behind machine 6-8 times, a skiddy 1-2 times, and a compact tractor 2-3 times.

Is things continue as planned (hoped, and prayed for), we'll be doubling our business activities for 2008. My concern is being ready to handle the work as it comes at us in as efficiently of a manner as possible.

I like the size and attachments of a skiddy, but not the stability or lack of visibility (have you tried to look out the side of a JD??).

I'd love to have something of a Case 590 with an extenda-hoe for the reach, but can't dream of using it!!

In all honesty, The best solution I've come up with is a compact tractor. 
Something that's 4wd, 35-55hp, with a loader, maybe skiddy quick-attach setup, and a 3pt. post hole digger on the back. 
The loader with forks would have to lift 2600lbs, as that's about what to expect for a normal pallet of salt (2450 + Pallet weight, but you need a margin or error, right?!!)

I love the idea of digging the deck footers, then moving the materials around back, lifting them as needed, having the ability to dump stone under the deck during construction, moving materials around our shop, and having it available to move snow, if we actually got any real accumulation.

A concern would be having to rebuild a few fences, since I won't be able to fit in a 36" gate that a few clients might have.

Another concern is buying the wrong machine. A thought was to lease... but I'm not sure of the advantages for us.

I've got a Kubota dealer near us, but I'm not K's #1 fan- they always seem underpowered and rudimentary.

I like JD for the layout & feel, but they seem under built & overpriced.

I like New Hollands the best all-around... and Maharinda (don't flame me for posting an imported machine- all of our's are mostly anyway!!!) for the cost & on-paper value.

Kubota & JD's are the closest dealers, about 15 minutes away each.
NH is about 30, and Bobcat's about an hour.
I'm not sure about Case, MF, or any other.

Oh, current price point:
Given that we're not slated to start off using the machine constently, I'm a bit hesitent to buy a brand-new machine. I think we'd be there in 2-4 years, but I can trade a bit of reliability for overhead right now.
I'd like to invest between $15k and $35k in the machine, attachments, trailer, and any upfitting needed to the above.

Renting won't be a good option going forward, as our scheduling will begin to get tougher, and the only Thomas is 1/2 hour the other direction from our usual direction for work.

OK, there's my story. For those of you not laughing at my ramblings, I'd truly appreciate your thoughts on machine classes, brands, and the "business" end of things.

I truly appreciate your time.
~Matt


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

Except for the top lift height you desire, a 763 Bobcat would get you there, and be all the machine you would need, plus would fit the bottom of your budget range. I think you would be disappointed in using a tractor/loader to do what you want, and a 3 point post hole digger is useless without down pressure...plus the machine would be awkward compared to a skid steer. A TLB is hard to get in tight areas.....but, if you get one plumbed with auxiliary hydraulics, you would be impressed what an auger can do off of the boom. Check eBay...lots of choices, and equipment prices seem to be coming down right now.


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## jmic (Dec 10, 2005)

Yep I'd say skid steer is the direction you should be looking at. For the occasional times you need to raise materials up to 12', I'd have a special set of forks made to slide over the reg. that were raised 4' or so to make up the dif.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

You may want to consider a compact track loader. Same maneuverability as a skid loader, similar size but greater lifting capacity. Tracks give you better floatation and will do less damage to the customers property.

I have a Takeuchi TL130 with low hours, in great condition that is for sale. I am about 2 hours away from you, if interested you can come down and give it a work out.


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## BreyerConstruct (May 22, 2006)

Joasis,

I hadn't thought about the down pressure; I've never used a 3point auger before, so I'm going on speculation. Wouldn't it be possible to add an additional hydro cylinder? 

The maneuverability is a concern...
The Bobcat you mentioned does hit the $$ perfectly, and the age of that machine's era seems to be a good fit. I'd have to get used to foot controls though, right?  (Not to start up THAT war or anything).
I'm still concerned about the support issue w/ no close dealer, but it's some good thoughts. thanks!

JMIC,

The custom forks idea is a good one. 
One of the things I've noticed from looking up the stats on both of the machines listed so far is, if I read them correctly, they both will lift 8'. Truth be told, 8' is a lot better than nothing, and would encompass the vast majority of the work we do!

tgeb,

The track idea is a good one. I like stability and reduced damage!
Any cons to tracks?
BTW, thanks for the offer to visit. I might just take you up on the offer. If you've got a 1/2 day of beginner/intermediet work to be done in the next month or so, let me know. I'd be glad to trade my labor for a few hours for the oppertunity to use a maching & get your feedback.

One thing I've noticed is the tip weight & the operating weight; will a machine with a 1400-1600 operating weight lift a 2600lb skid into a pick-up truck's bed?

Thanks for the thoughts guys,
~Matt


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## BAREIN (Dec 26, 2007)

*Tractor/skiddy/need direction*

I would get a skidloader A compact tractor is just to hard to manuver and I think you will be dissapointed in the 3 point auger, as sombody all ready stated, plus I think you will need to get in the upper end of your horsepower to be able to lift what you want, then a 50-60 horespower tractor is getting pretty big. The Bobcat 763 would be a good machine but wont lift nearly what you want it to. That Takeuchi that is for sale would be a great machine( they make the best compact track IMHO) would almost lift what you want to and do the least damage to exsisting lawns, But they are horrible for snow removal. and watch the height of the Takeuchi because they are pretty tall for there size.


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## tgeb (Feb 9, 2006)

BreyerConstruct said:


> tgeb,
> 
> The track idea is a good one. I like stability and reduced damage!
> Any cons to tracks?
> ...


One thing that is very confusing when it comes to "wheeled" skid steer loaders and compact "tracked" loaders is the way they rate the operating capacity.

A skid steer is rated at *50% of the tipping load*, for instance a loader that has an operating capacity of 1,700 pounds will tip at 3,400 pounds in the ISO testing.

A compact track loader is rated at *35% of the tipping load*, so for instance my Takeuchi has an operating capacity of 1,620 pounds and will tip at 4,630 pounds in the ISO testing.

So at first glance it would appear that the skid loader has a greater lifting capability than does the compact track loader, when in reality the compact track loader can and will pick up much greater weight, and do so safely.

A 2,600 lb pallet would be well within the limits of the tracked machine, while depending upon conditions, could exceed the limits of the wheeled skid steer loader.

My loader has an enclosed cab with heat and A/C. I will try and set aside some easy work for you. This loader has the pilot controls and is very easy to run. I've got a foundation back-fill coming up that might be perfect for you to give it a try on.

BAREIN is correct about the height of the Takeuchi's cab it is pretty tall just over 7 feet.
I did use mine though for clearing snow and had no issues with it, though it can be a little bit more prone to sliding than the wheeled loaders.

PS. Welcome to the site, BAREIN. We all look forward to your posts.


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## Tom F. (Sep 3, 2007)

FWIW, I have a New Holland TC40D that I like a lot. It has the NH backhoe setup, which is a slide-on unit. I pull it off and use a box-blade for earth moving and finish work. I also rent a 3 point seeder that works great behind it. It also has a NH loader with quick change bucket and forks. It is an excellent all-around machine. For my purposes, as a residential contractor, I couldn't do much better. Cost about 35K new, with a trailer.

While it is compact in nature, for a tractor, I do find it pretty awkward in tight spots. Fortunately in my area we build on big lots generally, so space isn't usually an issue. The backhoe is plenty powerful, I have a 12" and an 18" bucket. Nice for footers and odd digs. The reach is not overwhelming, so for big jobs like field lines or whole-house footers I get my backhoe sub to come and knock it out. 

The loader will only lift about half a pallet of mortar. I don't think any of the small machines will do much better.

I sometimes consider buying a big telescopic yard lift, as I spend a bundle renting these. If I had that for material handling, then I'd probably be better off with a Bobcat for gradework and filling, rather than the tractor, because of the manuverability. The full-size backhoe guys are pretty cheap, and are much faster than me for most jobs.

This is probably not the machine for your application. But, I'll tell you, I really labored with the decision whether to spend the money. And I have never been sorry. The machine gets used every day it is at the job site. It saves my back and the backs of my guys, and creates good will when I use it to help out a sub-trade or one of the neighbors in the subdivision. Wouldn't give it up.

Tom


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## Vinny (Jul 21, 2007)

Matt, I too would suggest a track skid steer. There are several threads here on the exact subject but in the end they're more stabil than any tractor type machine and the cat would probably do the least damage to a site IMHO, but I know from experience they are also the highest cost to maintain. 

Continue to rent for demos and then buy. There's plenty of used stuff out there and there will probably be more down the road.

Good luck


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## tnmtn (Dec 15, 2006)

matt,
the route i went with was for a compact tlb. the others are right that i many cases it isn't the best machine for the job but it always seems to get it done. you have demoed skids and mini skids, so at this point i would suggest trying the bobcat backhoes. they aren't being produced anymore but their are planty of used ones available either through bobcat or I/R. i have been very happy with where i can get mine with 4 wheel steering and 4 wheel drive. there is no comparison between these machines and the deere 110 or kubota l48. i have a skid steer quick attach front and hydraulics run to the front for skid attachments. i could also run hydraulics to the backhoe and run a post hole digger from there if needed. i was able to purchase mine w/ trailer and a couple attachments as well as a used dingo tx-425 within your price point. i am very happy with both machines working together. they compliment each other well.
good luck,


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## LNG24 (Oct 30, 2005)

Check out craigslist! A lot of equipment listed there. If you know exactly what you want, go to Google.com and search like this:



> craigslist,TC40


 That will search ALL of Craigslist. Then if you find something for the right price you can either make a trip and pick it up or hire someone to Haul it out to you. I use Yesterdays Tractor Hauling Schedule another one is UShip.com. I never used that one, but same principal. 

I find most guys on thee much cheeper than Freight. It is mostly guys like us. Small business owners!


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

A Cat 345 should suit you nicely.


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## BreyerConstruct (May 22, 2006)

http://www.findstone.com/img/rs447CAT345BL.jpg

is what comes up when I searched for it. 

I'm guessing you're meaning the small Cat track loader, not the big one, right?


~Matt


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## BreyerConstruct (May 22, 2006)

Ps, I just realized there's a Cleveland Brothers about 25 minutes away, lots of Cat stuff.

So I've been thinking about this topic a lot recently, and I've got a few new thoughts, largely based on the advice I've been getting above.

I think I'm getting convinced to move away from a TC40 or equivilent, and maybe looking at a decent skiddy. The fellow who has the small TLB + the Dingo... man, there's an awesome combo!! But, I've got to be realistic.

Now, given that we won't be using the machine FT, I'm looking more for the bare necessities, and not for the premium capacity, like I would if we were using it every day. 

If I'm looking for a skiddy that has a tipping weight of around 4k, and my local dealers are Cat, Case, and JD. JD is the closest, 
What should I consider, and what should I stay away from?
New or used?
I'll mostly likely be leasing, but not necessarily thru the dealer.

Have I made a complete circle in my thinking yet? LOL

~Matt


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

geez, I just realized that you are in Reading.


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## BreyerConstruct (May 22, 2006)

rino1494 said:


> geez, I just realized that you are in Reading.


You're up around Hazeltown, right?

~Matt


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## rino1494 (Jan 31, 2006)

I live in Dallas, which is 5 min from Wilkes-Barre.


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## BreyerConstruct (May 22, 2006)

when it comes to equipment, what do you like, and why?

~Matt


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## BAREIN (Dec 26, 2007)

*Tractor/skiddy/need direction*

First I think you need to decide if you need a compact track or if you can get by with a tire loader. The tire skiddy is going to be much cheaper and operation cost will be less, and it will be better if you use it for snow removal. downfall is that your going to be limited by muddy days and you will be reparing lawns a little more. As far as track loaders I would not currently by a Cat or a Case, Cats IMHO are awesome to run but the undercarriage is there downfall, the only guys that you see run them around here are diehard cat guys and they trade them off frequently to avoid problems. As for case I have demoed a few and they are good performers to but alls they are is a tire machine with a track setup, I have a buddy that works at a Case dealer there always in for update/recalls one even had a blown motor at 300 hours, I was talking to a competitor dealer owner and he said that he trys to avoid taking the Case track loaders in on trade. As for Deere I havent heard a thing about there track loaders I see alot of tire ones but very few track ones. choose carefully if you want to keep past warrenty driveline repaire is very costly on skidloaders. As for tire machine as long as you dont beat on them with over the tire track they should all hold up look for the one that suits you the best, and for the best deal, the only ones that ive heard real bad things about are the 200 seies 1 Deeres. Sorry if ive scared you away from skidloaders but weve been and have buddys who have been on the wrong side of a driveline repair and its scary.


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

I can't speak for your salt pallet lifting needs, but for what we do Matt, this should be all you need. I agree with bare and others on the cost and maintainence and snow maneuverability issues with wheeled vs track units. One other thing to consider is having another trailer to transport a larger unit in, and the associated turf dammage you will encounter. keeping the machine small and light and your maneuvers to gradual arcs vs doing 360 allover the place will virtually eliminate decimating your clients lawns.


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## Tim Doyka (Jan 4, 2008)

If you are going with a skid steer and going to use it everyday 30 to 40 q week buy new and prepare to trade it a betwenn 1500 and 1700 hrs to avoid it nickle and dimeing you. We have a jd 328 other than some visibility issues it have preformed fine. I ran a few and they are all hard to see out of at one point or another. one thing to remember if you are going to use it it is going to wear and break something eventually. It is really a personal preferance and luck you either get a good one or a bad one. We had a case 75 xt It was a good machine but the local case dealer service was horrendous. John deere service was excellent We have had four jd 410 series backhoes and never put a major component into any of them, they have been good solid machines( knock on wood) We are at the point now we are switching from them to excavators because of the nature of our work. we will see over the next ten years how they hold up


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## BreyerConstruct (May 22, 2006)

*Update*

Ok, after much consideration and obsessive research, we've got a winner!

Given that we don't need a big machine full time, but we frequently need a machine, the Boxer idea that Chris posted got us thinking.

We settled on a Boxer 526, with a 26hp Perkins Diesel. This machine's engine & hydro can be serviced by any Perkins dealer, so it'll be easy on that side.
It also has a ton of options & attachments, and can be made to accept almost any normal skiddy attachment.
This machine has the highest tip capacity of any stand-on skiddy (2100lbs), and will still fit thru a normal door/gate (35" wide). A cool feature is the tracks will go wider with the flip of a switch- to 44", so it should have a nice center of gravity & provide some good stability.

We're finalizing the lease papers for the machine, and a few attachments. We sat down & figured out what we need the most, and work from there. 
We're also getting an open trailer, where we'll mount the attachments, and have plenty of room for future growth. (Boxer offers a trailer, but several K more than I can obtain & adjust).

We rarely need to do heavy digging, so we pulled back from a bigger machine- we can always rent the right sized machine as needed.

The total for the machine, attachments, trailer, up-fitting, & misc. is under 35k.

I'm sure I'll post more info once it's arrived, and we've had the opportunity to use it a bit, but for now, here are a few stock pix of the machine.

Thanks again for all of your advice and input! Without it I don't think we would have ended up pursuing the right machine.

Thanks!
~Matt


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

matt don't waste your time with that mixer bowl, I had it and it SUCKS, wont mix 2 80# bags, the crete gets crammed into the flighting and you'll be clearing every mix out with your knuckles, trust me forget about it, get a large electric unit and save a ton of time:thumbsup:


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## BreyerConstruct (May 22, 2006)

Oops... already ordered. 
Ah, well... it's a nice idea anyway!

~Matt


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

see if you can un order it, you'll use it once than than curse the $500 you spent on it, trust me


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## BreyerConstruct (May 22, 2006)

I'll see what we can do; thanks for the heads-up!


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## Bone Saw (Feb 13, 2006)

plus the amount of time you waste starting and stopping it for mixing not to mention the fuel will will be more economically and productively spent, mixing 3 or 4 bags flipping a switch and pouring, plus when you factor in drilled hole, spray and leaking water hose and trucking those tracks all over the place, you'll have one hell of a mess


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