# Code question



## dwasifar (Jan 11, 2007)

Recently I opened up a ceiling box in a new home to install new lighting fixtures and discovered that the return was wired with black wire instead of white. The existing fixture's white wire was connected to a group of black wires, and its black wire was connected to a colored wire. I initially thought this must mean the switch was on the return side rather than on the hot side, but some testing confirmed that the colored wire was switched hot and the black wire was return.

I have never encountered this before in a metallic conduit installation. Does it violate code to use black wire for return?


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

The colored wire needs to be taped white to identify it as a neutral. I don't know the refference off the top of my head, but it can be done as long as the wire is re-identfied. I think the code says only a green wire cannot be re-identified.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

If the neutral conductor is #6 gauge or smaller, it must actually be a white conductor.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> If the neutral conductor is #6 gauge or smaller, it must actually be a white conductor.


Such a silly rule, I just pulled a #8 black to be used as a ground today :whistling


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## MSSI (Mar 25, 2006)

mdshunk said:


> If the neutral conductor is #6 gauge or smaller, it must actually be a white conductor.


I thought that is for single conductors through conduit and not for romex situations..


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## dwasifar (Jan 11, 2007)

MSSI said:


> I thought that is for single conductors through conduit and not for romex situations..


This is actually through conduit. The conductors were all #14 solid.

I don't know how they got away with it and passed inspection, if it's against code. The building is only two months old.


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## MSSI (Mar 25, 2006)

Thats not something that would be noticed in a normal inspection..They might look for ground screws/proper grounding, proper box capacity and location of j-box. I have never had an inspector get into color coding, that I can remember... Aside from looking for a green wire.......


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

dwasifar said:


> I don't know how they got away with it and passed inspection, if it's against code. The building is only two months old.


Many (even most) inspectors are looking for the "big things" and aren't looking for stuff as simple as this that should never get violated. Shame on the original installer.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

I agree, Inspectors should not be relied upon for a perfect installation (though so many people think "the inspector signed it off, it must be perfect" yeah right)

We had an inspector last summer(fortunately he told us ahead of time) that wanted high voltage colored MC, which has no code refferance. We complied although we use purple as C phase and they don't have purple 12/2 readily available. So we used orange even though that signifies a high leg. BS if you ask me, perhaps I should ask in the NEC section, but why didn't they just make purple the high leg color? would save a lot of problems, I think.


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## dwasifar (Jan 11, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> Many (even most) inspectors are looking for the "big things" and aren't looking for stuff as simple as this that should never get violated. Shame on the original installer.


Do you think it's worth making an issue of it? I could get the inspector back and show it to him, and make the builder fix it. But I'm sure it would generate a lot of ill will.

You know what, I should go to the service panel and see if it's black at that end. THAT should have been caught at inspection.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

dwasifar said:


> Do you think it's worth making an issue of it? I could get the inspector back and show it to him, and make the builder fix it. But I'm sure it would generate a lot of ill will.
> 
> You know what, I should go to the service panel and see if it's black at that end. THAT should have been caught at inspection.


If it's been passed off-it's been passed off, all you can do is tell your inspector to be more observant next time(if he even conceides he missed it the first time)

I don't see why it's such a big deal, just tape the wire and move on, or if you feel the urge pull a new one.......:whistling


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## dwasifar (Jan 11, 2007)

Sparky Joe said:


> If it's been passed off-it's been passed off, all you can do is tell your inspector to be more observant next time(if he even conceides he missed it the first time)
> 
> I don't see why it's such a big deal, just tape the wire and move on, or if you feel the urge pull a new one.......:whistling


Yeah, you're right. As long as I know it's there, what harm can it do.

Now, if it was the other way around - a white conductor that should be black - I'd be in there pulling new wires.

Thanks guys.


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## RobertWilber (Mar 5, 2006)

The neutrals are black?
The place was probably done by some jackleg auto mechanic [red is positive, black is negative].
Wanna bet the conduit isn't reamed? 
I am afraid I would have to vote in favor of creating ill will, and if it is aimed at you, then you are better off without the association of these folks.
Future problem. Hang 'em. I would tell them so they can get it redone properly. 
I doubt the owner agreed to have the job done against NEC.
I got a service call once at a BRAND NEW [hadn't sold a candy bar yet] convenience store because someone got a shock from an appliance. Done in AC. Every black in the panel was on the neutral bar. Whites on breakers. I showed the owner and said I wouldn't attempt to correct the problem without correcting the wiring, because it left me responsible. The original installer, it seems, had "disappeared" and his phone didn't work anymore ...
I hit the kitchen remodeler/plumber splices-in-the-wall garbage here all the time. .... well, they were cheaper than a licensed electrician .... and I didn't have to pay for a permit .... or an inspection .....

I think it goes something like

There once was a hermit named Dave 
Who kept a ...

well, you get my drift.


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## acrwc10 (Dec 10, 2006)

dwasifar said:


> Yeah, you're right. As long as I know it's there, what harm can it do.
> 
> Now, if it was the other way around - a white conductor that should be black - I'd be in there pulling new wires.
> 
> Thanks guys.


If your trade is ''computors'' why would you be pulling electrical wires? Seems like a good way to make a bad situation worse.


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## raider1 (Nov 21, 2006)

> So we used orange even though that signifies a high leg. BS if you ask me, perhaps I should ask in the NEC section, but why didn't they just make purple the high leg color? would save a lot of problems, I think.


110.15 requires that if you have a 4-wire delta-connected system where the midpoint of one phase winding is grounded, that only the conductor with the higher voltage be orange.

If you don't have a center tap delta system with a high leg you can use orange for other color codes, such as travellers or switch legs or one phase of a 480 volt system if you would like.

Chris


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## dwasifar (Jan 11, 2007)

RobertWilber said:


> The neutrals are black?
> The place was probably done by some jackleg auto mechanic [red is positive, black is negative].
> Wanna bet the conduit isn't reamed?


Actually the rest of the work looks very nice and neat. I had the service panel open yesterday; everything is nice and organized, no black wires to the neutral bars (which is what I had it open for), all the conduits labeled for their destinations, color codes marked on a card left at the panel. The contractor left his sticker on the panel, and it's a union shop.



RobertWilber said:


> I am afraid I would have to vote in favor of creating ill will, and if it is aimed at you, then you are better off without the association of these folks.
> Future problem. Hang 'em. I would tell them so they can get it redone properly.


Maybe I'll call the contractor and at least ask. The building is new enough that it would definitely be warranty work.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

dwasifar said:


> Actually the rest of the work looks very nice and neat................ it's a union shop.


:thumbup:


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

raider1 said:


> 110.15 requires that if you have a 4-wire delta-connected system where the midpoint of one phase winding is grounded, that only the conductor with the higher voltage be orange.
> 
> If you don't have a center tap delta system with a high leg you can use orange for other color codes, such as travellers or switch legs or one phase of a 480 volt system if you would like.
> 
> Chris


Yes I know this, but just so the 'red flag' isn't raised when you see orange, we use brown yellow purple


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Why would a flag possibly get raised for seeing B-O-Y colors. That is the industry standard. 
I would look twice if I _didn't_ see that for 277/480v.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> Why would a flag possibly get raised for seeing B-O-Y colors. That is the industry standard.
> I would look twice if I _didn't_ see that for 277/480v.


I personally like the BOY colors, has a sorta autumn look to it, and purple doesn't match brown at all. It's just the way we've been doing it since that change. And when we get into old buildings it really gets silly where we mark BPY to keep C phase the same color.

Like I said above, why didn't they just make purple the high leg


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

dwasifar said:


> Recently I opened up a ceiling box in a new home to install new lighting fixtures and discovered that the return was wired with black wire instead of white. The existing fixture's white wire was connected to a group of black wires, and its black wire was connected to a colored wire. I initially thought this must mean the switch was on the return side rather than on the hot side, but some testing confirmed that the colored wire was switched hot and the black wire was return.
> 
> I have never encountered this before in a metallic conduit installation. Does it violate code to use black wire for return?


The (white) grounded conductor must always be identified. A neutral conductor is a wire that's part of a multiwire circuit.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

"Neutral" is the widely accepted general term for _grounded conductor_. Multi-wire or not.

We all know what the correct term is but generic terms are easier and they are accepted.

What about ther term "sub-panel"?


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

"sub-panel"-main breaker is in remote location


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

My point was sub-panel is not the correct term, yet it is used every day by electricians and we know what it means.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

Speedy Petey said:


> My point was sub-panel is not the correct term, yet it is used every day by electricians and we know what it means.


So what is the correct term, "load center"?

What about breaker, you probably use the term differently, as an introduction to 'break' into a conversation?


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

"Non service panel". As a sub-panel is not service equipment.

There was an old timer on the boards Bennie who had a real hard-on about the term "sub-panel". He would go on and on about the term not being correct.


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> "Neutral" is the widely accepted general term for _grounded conductor_. Multi-wire or not.
> 
> We all know what the correct term is but generic terms are easier and they are accepted.
> 
> What about ther term "sub-panel"?


Before I reply on the sub-panel term I must first teach on the topic that a neutral is different from a grounded conductor. As a neutral wire is shared in a circuit of two branch circuits. A grounded conductor will only carry unbalanced current on a single branch circuit.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

[
typeo


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> Before I reply on the sub-panel term I must first teach on the topic that a neutral is different from a grounded conductor. As a neutral wire is shared in a circuit of two branch circuits. A grounded conductor will only carry unbalanced current on a single branch circuit.


Hmmmm what is the difference? I don't see it.... are they both grounded?

Please 'teach' some more...........

Are you somehow speaking of an 'ungrounded' system where one phase has a case bond so to speak having equal potential with everything 'grounded' in the facility(corner tapped delta); thusly a 'grounded' conductor.

'Neutral' meanining it is the same potential as everything around you, or in other words 'grounded'. You gotta understand that whether it has potential or not, if it is the same as all the potential around you then it is neutral, aka grounded.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> Before I reply on the sub-panel term I must first teach on the topic that a neutral is different from a grounded conductor. As a neutral wire is shared in a circuit of two branch circuits. A grounded conductor will only carry unbalanced current on a single branch circuit.


Sorry sir but I feel you are wrong.
A neutral is a grounded conductor. Not all grounded condcutors are neutrals. 
The NEC makes NO distinction that a "neutral" is only for multi-wire circuits.

Here is the NEC definition of:

_*Branch Circuit, Multiwire.* A branch circuit that consists of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral *or* grounded conductor of the system.

_The word "neutral" is used ALL over the code as the grounded conductor of a multi wire feeder or system.

In fact, it is rare that a grounded condcutor is not a neutral.


If you feel differently, please show me where it is written.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Also, I'd be real cautious about using terms like *"...I must first teach..."*.
In this post you simply told us your opinion.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> As a neutral wire is shared in a circuit of two branch circuits. A grounded conductor will only carry unbalanced current on a single branch circuit.


There's a ***** in your theory.

A neutral that is common to two legs of a 3-phase panel does indeed carry unbalanced current.

A neutral that is common to both legs of a single phase panel will carry unbalanced current if both legs are not exactly evenly loaded (which is most cases).


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> . As a neutral wire is shared in a circuit of two branch circuits. A grounded conductor will only carry unbalanced current on a single branch circuit.


Unbalanced current on a single circuit/grounded conductor. Is that possible?


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

Ok Everyone. Not to brag but Let me begin to put my PhD in EE to work as my main purpose here is to help my future contractors and my experienced contractors who are a little rusty on their book theory but more hands on experience oriented out. We all are here to help one another out. right? Ok lets begin as I was taught years ago. I'll explain this in three short paragraphs.

1. A multi-wire branch circuit is actually two seperate circuits using one white wire. It consists of two hot wires having a voltage potential between them and a white grounded *neutral* wire. The white wire now becomes a *neutral* wire since it can carry unbalanced current.

2. The white *neutral *wire in a 3-wire branch circuit shall not be dependent on device connections where the removal of a device would interrupt the continuity of the *neutral* conductor to the next device it is feeding. *Right guys??* What this means is, the *neutral* must always be pigtailed in a multi-wire circuit.

3. If one circuit of a multi-wire circuit was shut off and the receptacle was unwired and removed, the other circuit would not have a grounded conductor if the white was connected to the receptacle terminals that was removed. This is why the NEC states that a grounded *neutral* wire must always be pigtailed in a multi-wire circuit.
*Do you guys see it now?* Pigtailing the white wire is not required in a split-wired circuit because it is not a *neutral* wire since there is only one breaker controlling it. A multi-wire has *two* breakers and the white wire *Then* becomes a *neutral* wire. Then the *neutral* must be pigtailed. Thanks for listening guys. I love to help and teach. See you on another topic. This ones won!


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> Thanks for listening guys. I love to help and teach. See you on another topic. This ones won!


ya.


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## CE1 (Dec 30, 2005)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> *Do you guys see it now?*


Yep. “Spaghetti circle logic” :thumbsup:


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> 1. A multi-wire branch circuit is actually two seperate circuits using one white wire. It consists of two hot wires having a voltage potential between them and a white grounded *neutral* wire. The white wire now becomes a *neutral* wire since it can carry unbalanced current.


This is the only paragraph that touched what I'd like you to explain, perhaps 2 more paragraphs on this subject would be in order?

Perhaps just define the term "neutral" as used in electrical conductors, that seems like a good starting point, because no one is seeing the difference between neutral and grounded conductor for the good reason that there isn't any.

Fact is grounded conductor explains the purpose to a 'tee', whereas neutral really isn't saying anything, just a common term people use.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> This ones won!


Yeah, but not by you. 

First off, your EE degree holds absolutely NO water with me. EE's have no status in construction and building wiring. You may tell me how the electrons are flowing, but I can tell you why you have to bond your pool deck or that a ground rod does not protect you against shock.

Once again, all you did was try and show what you think you know. You just reiterated what we all know and were taught in Electric 102.
You gave NO code reference or facts. Just your opinion.

And by saying _"This ones won!"_, you've shown your arrogance.


Yes, a neutral is a grounded conductor that carries the current imbalance. But a multi-wire circuit is NOT, repeat NOT, the only place it is a neutral. 
Hell, 99.999% of the residential services out there are nothing but huge multi-wire circuits. 
Do you not agree that the grounded conductor of the service in your home is a neutral??????????


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

*neutral vs grounded conductor*



Sparky Joe said:


> This is the only paragraph that touched what I'd like you to explain, perhaps 2 more paragraphs on this subject would be in order?
> 
> Perhaps just define the term "neutral" as used in electrical conductors, that seems like a good starting point, because no one is seeing the difference between neutral and grounded conductor for the good reason that there isn't any.
> 
> Fact is grounded conductor explains the purpose to a 'tee', whereas neutral really isn't saying anything, just a common term people use.


3. If one circuit of a multi-wire circuit was shut off and the receptacle was unwired and removed, the other circuit would not have a grounded conductor if the white was connected to the receptacle terminals that was removed. This is why the NEC states that a grounded *neutral* wire must always be pigtailed in a multi-wire circuit.
*Do you guys see it now?* Pigtailing the white wire is not required in a split-wired circuit because it is not a *neutral* wire since there is only one breaker controlling it. A multi-wire has *two* breakers and the white wire *Then* becomes a *neutral* wire. Then the *neutral* must be pigtailed. Thanks for listening guys. I love to help and teach. See you on another topic. This ones won!


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

My point I tried to make above..........

What does "pigtailing" have to do with the difference between a neutral and grounded conductor.

Or should I say "wow dude very profound point, I wish I were an EE so I could understand these mysteries of the universe"
By the way EE is just a job title, PEE is an actual status like my dad who would never act like such a moron in front of other "professionals"

So let it all be known the rules have changed; -pigtail means neutral- :laughing: 

jackass :no:


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

My responses to this topic is over and only *True Master Electricians* would understand, *and or* electricians who have passed their master examinations within the past five years and not when the tests were elementary.


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## MSSI (Mar 25, 2006)

I know plenty of EE's that dont know which end of a screwdriver to use......I just choose to let them explain away and do it my way anyway. and they never know the difference...

If you *Choose *to play Chess with a retart,,,,, you cant get mad when he eats the pieces​:blink:


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Jones,
So I guess you failed to find any facts that support your claims....
Oh well.



And BTW, it is not about winning or losing. Well, maybe it is in your world, but not here. It is about getting FACTS straight and learning from each other.
But if you already think you know it all and all you can do is teach then I feel VERY sorry for you!

Have a good night...doctor. :laughing:


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

I know plenty of EE's who don't know which way a screwdriver turns as well and knows nothing but a desk. Give them a blueprint and they will tell you everything but not be able to wire a dog house. Sorry guys not i but nice try. I am a seasoned Master Electrician who started from the bottom with vocational ,military, technical, and college training as well as hands on experience and luckily I became one who experienced both worlds. Electrical engineer and Master Electrician. Sorry but nice try anyway guys.:clap:


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

I don't get it. Nice try at what???


I must say Mr. Jones. You are certainly making a....memorable...first impression. 
In less than two days you have managed to alienate a good portion of the regulars here.


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## Sparky Joe (Apr 29, 2006)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> My responses to this topic is over and only *True Master Electricians* would understand, *and or* electricians who have passed their master examinations within the past five years and not when the tests were elementary.


Whatever you say, Jr.(small) Cojones(balls), but isn't the master exam the same as the JW exam as far as wiring is concerned just with some business questions added.

Oh and believe me I've met some so called "masters" who passed there test recently and they certainly are nothing to brag about.

Your so called 'credentials' don't mean much around here only what you know, perhaps you should try wooing the folks in the DIY forum seeing as that's the amount of knowledge your credentials have gained you :laughing:


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> I don't get it. Nice try at what???
> 
> 
> I must say Mr. Jones. You are certainly making a....memorable...first impression.
> In less than two days you have managed to alienate a good portion of the regulars here.


To define *alienate* = to make unfriendly, hostile, or indifferent especially where attachment formerly existed.

I would never try to do such a thing. If people could accept the rights and wrongs of this world we would all get along just fine. I love people who worked hard in this trade and respect the NEC which is life saving instead of the ones who would risk a house burning down because he played a trick on the inspector changing AFCI breakers around behind his back. Therefore putting peoples lives in danger. Total red flag. Come on guys lets work together as a team and put the selfish, and jealous fits away.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> Come on guys lets work together as a team and put the selfish, and jealous fits away.


Nobody wants to be on your team, because you don't act very nice. Whether you're right or wrong, your general attitude stinks. Sorry about that... it's hard to hang around a fella like that. When you have corrections or additional information to add to threads, it's generally a good idea to "sneak them in" here and there, rather to come in with torches blazing and axe in hand. Especially about something so inconsequential as point out that the grounded conductor is not always the neutral conductor. We're talking electrician slang here. Was there some doubt, in your mind, as to what was being discussed? I think not.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> Come on guys lets work together as a team and put the *selfish, and jealous fits* away.


MAN! You certainly are a piece of work. Even a post like this is laden with arrogance.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> If people could accept the rights and wrongs of this world we would all get along just fine.


Basically what you are saying is if we all would simply agree with you unquestionably, we would all get along.


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

Sparky Joe said:


> Whatever you say, Jr.(small) Cojones(balls), but isn't the master exam the same as the JW exam as far as wiring is concerned just with some business questions added.
> 
> Oh and believe me I've met some so called "masters" who passed there test recently and they certainly are nothing to brag about.
> 
> Your so called 'credentials' don't mean much around here only what you know, perhaps you should try wooing the folks in the DIY forum seeing as that's the amount of knowledge your credentials have gained you :laughing:


The master exam is not the same as a *weak* and *fundamental ohms law calculations* Jw exam. Try taking the toughest exam in the us. The NJ Master Electrician Exam. Three parts. Business,law 150min/ Fire alarm 120 min/ Electrical Contractor 240min (200 questions). No cheating tabbed up and highlited code book allowed and no ugly's book. Past this exam and i'll welcome you all to the real world of Master Electricians.


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> Nobody wants to be on your team, because you don't act very nice. Whether you're right or wrong, your general attitude stinks. Sorry about that... it's hard to hang around a fella like that. When you have corrections or additional information to add to threads, it's generally a good idea to "sneak them in" here and there, rather to come in with torches blazing and axe in hand. Especially about something so inconsequential as point out that the grounded conductor is not always the neutral conductor. We're talking electrician slang here. Was there some doubt, in your mind, as to what was being discussed? I think not.


You know md shunk i have to agree with you for once. I like your way of thinking. I get carried away sometimes but I'll consider that advice.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

cjonesjr2007 said:


> Past this exam and i'll welcome you all to the real world of Master Electricians.


JoeT, stop signing up under other user names. It's getting a little old. Sorry, old pal.


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

mdshunk said:


> JoeT, stop signing up under other user names. It's getting a little old. Sorry, old pal.


Who is joeT?


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## MSSI (Mar 25, 2006)

I passed it.. big fn deal. I dont think it was all that tough.. 

I still dont agree with you. and it doesnt make me any better than anyone else. and I still have to ask simple code questions. I forget 1/2 the stuff that was on the test..


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

MSSI said:


> I passed it.. big fn deal. I dont think it was all that tough..
> 
> I still dont agree with you. and it doesnt make me any better than anyone else. and I still have to ask simple code questions. I forget 1/2 the stuff that was on the test..


The simple fact is that I have taken several state tests and NJ was the strongest of them all. No one said it was a big deal but if you take the test in UT you will then see the difference. Also the average person will not be able to answer a simple and easy question like. In a ac circuit total opposition to current is?:notworthy (a. voltage) (b. resistance) (c. power) (d. impedence)


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## itsunclebill (May 18, 2006)

:jester: cjonesjr, I'm pretty dense sometimes. I'd appreciate any input on how the knowledge of business law or being an electrical contractor in New Jersey helps or hinders the qualifications of a master electrician, especially if they work somewhere else. 

In most states I'm familiar with becoming an electrical contractor is entirely independent of being a master electrician, the requirement being that one is employed and registered as the responsible master electrician for the company. As such, the questions on the master electrician exam in these states are all about being a master electrician and don't delve into unrelated stuff, and since most require a journeyman license as a prerequisite they don't ask the same questions all over again.

I'm also interested in knowing how passing a test makes you a good master electrician. Multiple choice questions present even a completely incompetant person the possibility of passing a test. IE, since the total opposition to current is expressed in the same units in either AC or DC it doesn't take a genius to deduce the answer to your question. And, as this question is posed I suspect that someone with even a small passing knowledge of electrical terms would have a 50% chance of _guessing_ the correct answer. Now if you can pull the AC steady state equation out of your backside without refering to a book I _might_ be slightly more impressed - but you've already provided keen insight to all the information I need to make a judgement about how intelligent you really are. In fact, since most states require experience and competence to test in the first place I'm finding New Jersey's requirements somewhat suspect at the moment.

Are you one of those guys that calls a voltage reading between the 2 single phase ungrounded conductors a phase-to-phase voltage? I like to be precise in my ascessments.


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## cjonesjr2007 (Jan 15, 2007)

itsunclebill said:


> :jester: cjonesjr, I'm pretty dense sometimes. I'd appreciate any input on how the knowledge of business law or being an electrical contractor in New Jersey helps or hinders the qualifications of a master electrician, especially if they work somewhere else.
> 
> In most states I'm familiar with becoming an electrical contractor is entirely independent of being a master electrician, the requirement being that one is employed and registered as the responsible master electrician for the company. As such, the questions on the master electrician exam in these states are all about being a master electrician and don't delve into unrelated stuff, and since most require a journeyman license as a prerequisite they don't ask the same questions all over again.
> 
> ...


Let me guess? You are one who took an elementary test decades ago. O well. When you stop letting jealousy come in the way of your dreams, by not even understanding how? Then you will finally become a respectable millionaire. I respect the fact that you are an Electrical Contractor but really believe you should be retested as rust can happen to anyone. AC VS DC.


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## Speedy Petey (Sep 30, 2003)

Oh great. Here we go again. Another night of this crap from "cjones"?
I'm glad I have a meeting to go to.

Have fun Joe.


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## fridaymean (Feb 17, 2006)

You know, I have done more reading on the site than posting. And for the first time, I think we need to look into a way of blocking someone.:clap: 

This site is about learning and helping out fellow electricians/contractors. Not some A-hole comming in here and looking for a bi*ch fight. "I'm better than you", or "I know more than you" won't get you too far, especially on the internet. Respect that is earned has way more clout than respect that is demanded. 

I really could care less what tests you have taken, or degrees you have. I have one too, just having one doesn't mean squat.

Although, it has been amusing.:laughing:


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