# The Going Rate



## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

There is not such thing. Stop using this phrase please.


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

Post Of The Day!!!

:happybday:


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## PressurePros (Jul 3, 2006)

hahahahahahaaaaa


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Booyah! I made you all look LOL.


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## myshtern (Jun 18, 2007)

there definitely is such a thing


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

Oh yeah? Tell me then, what's the going rate of a carpenter?

It's only a mirage manufactured by GC's.


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## dvon104 (Jun 23, 2007)

I would guess the "going rate" is whatever the rate is when the estimate or bid is accepted....


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## myshtern (Jun 18, 2007)

Let me say this first:

I'm new to this forum but I've been reading a lot of threads on here. I think the contractors who post here are very professional and take pride in their work. The fact that all of you went online to talk to colleagues during your free time shows that you enjoy your work and seek to constantly improve. 

With that said, I think most of you have a very very very narrow perspective on construction. Even those of you who have been in your field for 20 years seem to know not a whole lot more than your specific trade.

It's my opinion that you guys are contractors and only that, you have very limited knowledge of the overall picture. It seems like a lot of you have no idea how large projects are financed and how that paycheck even gets into your pocket. 

Like I said, that's just my opinion. I'm sure there are 100s of guys registered on this board who know 10x more than I do but this is just the general feel I've gotten from reading these threads for several hours. 

Back to your original question - 

Generally it's pretty easy to tell how much a crew gets paid within an hour of talking to whoever is in charge. First I would judge as to what you make in 1 decent year. Then you tell me about the guys in your crew. Lastly you tell me how long the project will take. Do the math, compare it to your budget, drive the price to at least 10% of your budget. Talk to 2 other contractors, balance things out, and that is your going rate. 

If it's just a one man project you can go strictly on time. Generally you know the average salary of an experienced carpenter in your area. If most 15 year carpenters are making $60k in your area, two weeks of work will be You tell me the project is going to be 2 weeks so I figure you're goal is to come out with about $2300. Bid me $3k and I know I can drive you down to $2k.


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## PressurePros (Jul 3, 2006)

Oh man, this post is gonna get interesting fast.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

When you come up to a contractor and say "it'll be $25/hr" and he says "that's not the going rate" then he's manufacturing this statement so he can bully you down in price. 

It's a saying that replaces "I don't want to pay that because I only care about price and I can get Felix over here for much less so bring your price down"

Do you have a going rate for a 6 cyl car? How about a Mercedes? A baseball player? A ticket to the movies? 

I think you assume too much myshtern. Sounds like mebbe you think you know more than the rest of us.


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

And crickets. Look what you did PressurePro! LOL.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

PressurePros said:


> Oh man, this post is gonna get interesting fast.


nah ... it'll just be a five page long pissing contest:laughing:


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

won't get there. pressure jinxed it all! LOL


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

thanks alot ken


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## PressurePros (Jul 3, 2006)

Someone will give in and take the bait.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

alright i will

ahem



excuse me - but what is the going rate for carpenters doing wiring for a house at $0.50 per sq. ft.??


thnx in advance!!!

oh - and is there a school for doing decks?? I wanna make decks and get licensed as a Class A 


what's bonding?



arty:


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

my going rate changes with every job, I dont bid by the foot and I could bid the same house 6 times and each time come up with a different price. I look at a house and I decide how many man hours it will take then add in my overhead and profit, then add a little something for the hommies that didnt make it and that is my going rate. Do I care about financing? If the check bouces I do, otherwise if you are clubbing baby seals to pay for my services thats fine with me, not my business how you get your money, just make sure to get me mine on time. Do I care what the carpenters are getting paid? Not really they have their skills and I have mine, pay them as much or as little as you like, just make sure I am paid also. I dont need to know about plumbing, or electrical work to do my job, I am a specialized service. The only thing I need to know about the other trades on my job is who gets the bill when a guy cuts a hole in the wrong spot and I have to patch it. I dont want to be a GC when I grow up, so I dont care what they have to do, I just do what I am paid to do then I cash the check.


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## myshtern (Jun 18, 2007)

framerman said:


> Do you have a going rate for a 6 cyl car? How about a Mercedes? A baseball player? A ticket to the movies?


It's all in a frame of reference. There are going rates for all of those. Kelley Blue Book will tell you what the going rate/value is of cars. Compare positions and skill level to other baseball teams. The film industry sets regional standards for ticket pricing - you think they're random?

Taking a basic marketing course, you'll learn about things such as price elasticity and brand built pricing. 


> I think you assume too much myshtern. Sounds like mebbe you think you know more than the rest of us.


You need to understand that you and I have very different jobs. You frame houses every day every week. When you're on big sites you may talk to other guys as to what they charge, etc...

In one week, I'll meet with 40 framers and I'll get into the nitty gritty details of money with probably 30 of them. After the first 5 I'll get a solid feel for the going rate. 

I have no doubt that you know 10x more than me about framing. 

When it comes to going rates and coordinating contractors, I probably have the upper hand.


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## Multi-Tasker (Jul 11, 2005)

myshtern
It's my opinion that you guys are contractors and only that, you have very limited knowledge of the overall picture. It seems like a lot of you have no idea how large projects are financed and how that paycheck even gets into your pocket. 



He does not get it at all.:whistling


Joe


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## myshtern (Jun 18, 2007)

Multi-Tasker said:


> myshtern
> It's my opinion that you guys are contractors and only that, you have very limited knowledge of the overall picture. It seems like a lot of you have no idea how large projects are financed and how that paycheck even gets into your pocket.
> 
> 
> ...


Like I said, that's just the vibe I got from reading a lot of the posts. I didnt mean to offend anyone. I'm sure there are extremely knowledgeable builders here but most people are specific to their trades.

This thread would be a key example


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## POOLMANinCT (Oct 7, 2006)

going rate - (noun) a cost determined by myself, that will get the project going.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

Multi-Tasker said:


> He does not get it at all.:whistling
> 
> 
> Joe


i dunno ... i kinda got a feeling he's prolly really good at what _he_ does - whatever that exactly is


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

there definitely is a 'going rate' for everything. in my area, for example, the 'going rate' for electrical work is between $65-$75/hr. some guys are lower...some are higher. but ask around the supply house and you'll find that $65-$75 is what most guys charge...

the problem is....most of these guys never figured out their costs. never did a break even calc....never determined what they need to earn to live how they want to live.

i would guess that 75% of the guys who charge the "going rate" have no clue what a P&L is, let alone how to read it.

They let their lifestyle be determined by what someone else told them they should charge.

So, while there is a 'going rate', the only ones who benefit from it are the GC's and the customers....the contractors and especially the employees do not benefit from it...


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## PressurePros (Jul 3, 2006)

Who sets the rate? In my business any jackleg that buys a pressure washer considers himself a wood restoration company. These guys have full time jobs and think grossing a thousand dollars per month is adding something to their income (it probably is). Does this type of company set the going rate? I'm sure with guys like mysh, they do. I am often 3-4x the rate of a lowballing, non business running hack. I get that rate every day of the week. So do I set the rates? 

I can understand there being two camps on this topic. There obviously needs to be a baseline for GC's to work from so he/she can manage costs. From a contractor standpoint, these rates are often based upon guys that have no clue how much it costs to run a company, use cheap materials and hire illegal/non qualified labor. I don't do work for builders for this reason. Let someone else who thinks they are starving get the "going rate".


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## go do it (Nov 19, 2006)

whats the going rate for gas at the pump?


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## go do it (Nov 19, 2006)

whats the going rate for a hooker


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## go do it (Nov 19, 2006)

unless you work on an assembly line how can someone have a going rate? 

especially the feild of construction where just about every job is different and so labor intensive?

the labor on one project will be different than the next exact same project.

general conatractor please


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## macmikeman (Sep 12, 2005)

There will always be a "going rate". It is a sad state of affairs. Somebody mentioned hookers. They also have a going rate. Some of them are smarter and better looking than the others and therefore market themselves differently, resulting in an increase in the revenue. The trick in construction is to be a better looking hooker, know what your costs are, and charge accordingly. But don't forget about the better looking part, or you will be engaging in #$%^$%#$%^%$#%^$# behind the dumpster in the alley.:laughing:


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## go do it (Nov 19, 2006)

The trick in construction is to be a better looking hooker:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::clap:


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

No, I'm sorry, but you are describing two different things. The going *rate* is in singular form, meaning one price. Not a price range...a price. A set dollar amount. A carpenter with 10 years experience gets paid x amount of dollars. You put two guys with the same exact years of experience next to each other, their price will not only be different from each other, but would differ from state to state and region to region.

5 miles down the road from where I live, you go from 24x32 starter homes to million dollar beach front property.

The only people I know that use this phrase are contractors and they use it against people who will work for them. It's a simple business trick and it sounds more politically correct. The only time you whip this phrase out is when you have someone there in front of you wanting more money than what you budgeted for.

When you have this range of price like you have quoted, exactly what do you tell someone when you say "I will pay the going rate, which is......."

?????

If you got a range, exactly where does this solid price manifest from? And what's it based on? Their experience? Their speed? Their quality?


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## J F (Dec 3, 2005)

I haven't read the thread yet but so cut me some slack if someone already said this...the first thing I thought when I read "the going rate" is:

what they really mean is "the GOING BROKE rate"....as soon as I hear someone mention that (as a client), I pretty much give up on whatever else comes after...possibly to my own detriment, but after that phrase I start looking for dirt under my fingernails, seeing what kind of animals are made up from the clouds above, thinking about taxes...etc, etc :whistling

J


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

hey...i have it on good authority from a really smart man in PA, that there is a going rate for electrical...if anyone wants to debate him, let me know...i'll point you in his direction. He is highly intelligent and won't be persuaded by opinions (or facts for that matter:whistling)

Let me know, i'll send you his way...


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## dvon104 (Jun 23, 2007)

Framerman...I know exactly what you are trying to say...I have a framer who I work with very closely ...I introduced him to a custom home builder that needed a little side job done..very simple 30x52 home....so. Rudy(framer) does it for 5.75 a square ft..on the terms with builder he will get a chance on his 4500-9000 sqft homes...everything went perfect ..builder is ecstatic...everyone is happy...NOW...builder gives Rudy 3 jobs just to bid so Rudy gives him a $... now keep in mind custom homes ..cut up roofs ...3 different pitches...and they are massive homes...Rudy bids 9.00 sqft...

G.C. is all pissed now saying Rudy is trying to gouge him..."GOING RATE is 7.50 sqft "....well a... Rudy did that job for 5.75 ...G.C. 's regular framer charges him 8.00 and some change sqft...so G.C. assumed he could get Rudy for less and put the extra in his pocket (almost 5 grand extra)...well Rudy told to him get bent ...and now his other framer knows the $ Rudy gave G.C. (Rudy told him)...and he wants 9.00 sqft...

So to my point ...the going rate for this job I would say as of right now 
is 9.00 sqft..

In my market framing prices range and this is the God honest range...From the mexican mason with a compressor and 8 sons to experienced professional licensed and insured real deal is ..3.85 to 12.50 a sqft

So...ther is NO such thing as a going rate in framing ..its a range ..there are way to many variables for there to be a going rate...and 

How come G.C.'s beat EVERYONE one up on price ....material cost have been down ..with influx of cross-border labor ..labor prices are down...so builders cost is down which ...but do they lower their price ..heck no...

and before I get the ..."Well we hold the note/loan"....response ...on a spec that may very well be ...but it its not the case on a custom....I guess only they are supposed to make money...


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## go do it (Nov 19, 2006)

and before I get the ..."Well we hold the note/loan"....response ...on a spec that may very well be ...but it its not the case on a custom....I guess only they are supposed to make money

dvon that is why i folded my framing company to do remodels and specs 

after 17 yrs in buisness framing all i got was hard work and not enough payout. framers do most of the work with not a big enough peice of the pie


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## dvon104 (Jun 23, 2007)

go do it said:


> and before I get the ..."Well we hold the note/loan"....response ...on a spec that may very well be ...but it its not the case on a custom....I guess only they are supposed to make money
> 
> dvon that is why i folded my framing company to do remodels and specs
> 
> after 17 yrs in buisness framing all i got was hard work and not enough payout. framers do most of the work with not a big enough peice of the pie


 
And back when I framed...(worked for 1)...almost everything falls on the framer...door/window is not working properly... "R.O. is wrong or outta square"...well why in the hell did you go and install it ...I am sure it has nothing to do that installer did not use shims..window /door is not plumb...couldnt be that installer never put a level on it ..that never happens ...almost every trade from the plumbers ..electricians ..to even roofers ...complain about something framer did and thats why their job performance is the way it is ...and that is why I quit many yrs ago while I was young enough to get out ....and heck ...now as a supplier we all know its my fault ...but as long as I can get my lazy butt back in the A.C. in July...heck I will take the blame....:laughing:


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## go do it (Nov 19, 2006)

all the smart people are in sales


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## HallisseyDesign (Jul 6, 2007)

Hahaha ok this to funny. I have a going rate, it depends on how much you are willing to listen doing the project your way or the right way. - Many people I have dealt with want it the cheapest way possible but don't understand that most of the time the cheap way may not let you replace the felt board on the house. Thus creating waves in the siding. Stuff like that. I can tell you my going rate for basement remodels are if anybody would like to know. My rate per square foot means everything from the electrical to the carpet and also includes a bathroom and if you would like a wet bar. I am a framer/plumber/electrician/ concrete anything. Basically what I am getting at is the pencil pushers in this business that start talking about how they can do stuff I do cheaper and I laugh when I walk through and see there work or lack of it. I am going to stop the rant know! Sorry I am stepping of the soap box.

It is a 3 man crew I work with. My Dad, and a fireman. 1000 square foot basements done in 3 weeks to a month. pine wood walls. that kind of stuff!


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

I think the big difference is that each sub will have their rate they can live with, and this will differ from sub to sub, so the builder/GC gets one guy and his "rate" is x and the next guy's rate is y, so he tells "y" to get it down to "x" rate.

He hears from another a lower "rate", so he uses this method against the higher rate guy so he can get a better worker for a better deal....most of the time.:clap:


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## nailitframing (Feb 2, 2008)

There is always a going rate. It depends on the construction market where you live and the labor rates. Where I live the going rate is $2.25-$2.75 a sqft. I can also build a 2400 sqft. energy efficient home all brick, stained concrete, tile or hard wood floors, appliances, and dual fuel hvac, low E windows for less than $90.00 sqft. If you don't now the going rate, your probably in the wrong line of work.


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## nailitframing (Feb 2, 2008)

P.S. Just because OSB goes up 2.25 on 100 sheets it's only costing an extra 250.00 I'm sure your 25-30% profit margin will survive. Oh yeh! studs went up .09 cents on 600 studs opps thats an extra 54.00 dollars. Oh my god, how will I ever survive.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

nailitframing ....out of curiosity...what's the going rate for a hamburger in your area?


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Celtic said:


> nailitframing ....out of curiosity...what's the going rate for a hamburger in your area?


why do you feed the trolls? always?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mahlere said:


> why do you feed the trolls? always?


'cause it always brings you to the picnic :thumbup:


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

Celtic said:


> 'cause it always brings you to the picnic :thumbup:


what? am I an ant? do I amuse you?


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## Kent Whitten (Mar 24, 2006)

nailitframing said:


> It depends on the construction market where you live and the labor rates.





nailitframing said:


> If you don't now the going rate, your probably in the wrong line of work.


If you don't know YOUR rate, then you shouldn't be in business. If it depends on just those items you listed above, then maybe you should pay a little more attention to your surroundings.



nailitframing said:


> ...the going rate is $2.25-$2.75 a sqft.


Let's take this as a perfect example. If you say to a contractor "2.25-2.75 sf" how many times do you get the 2.75? I doubt you'd ever get it. So *your* rate is 2.25. My rate will be different than yours (just an example) So throwing in the "going" part is bs.


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## davy crockett (Dec 19, 2007)

oes anybo y know the going rate for the button on a Hewlett Packar keyboar,,,,,,,thanks ,,have a goo ay 


avey:w00t:


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## trav007 (Jan 25, 2008)

Why don't we just agree that "What's the going rate?" should just be construed as code for "I'm learning something and don't know how to calculate my finances, so please help......

That being said....I guess the hardest part about getting a fair price is the cost of each persons overhead. My overhead is very low so should I charge a lot less than someone else....therefore appearing to be a lowballer...I think not...I want to grow and expand so I think I should _*at least*_ be on par with others in my area.

Is that not a fair reason to ask the taboo question?

Hey, don't forget everybody has different suppliers and therefore different discounts on goods........anyhow gotta go to the drive-in.....check back later.


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## Mark Twenhafel (Dec 23, 2006)

macmikeman said:


> There will always be a "going rate". It is a sad state of affairs. Somebody mentioned hookers. They also have a going rate. Some of them are smarter and better looking than the others and therefore market themselves differently, resulting in an increase in the revenue. The trick in construction is to be a better looking hooker, know what your costs are, and charge accordingly. But don't forget about the better looking part, or you will be engaging in #$%^$%#$%^%$#%^$# behind the dumpster in the alley.:laughing:


University of Chicago professor Steven Levitt determined that the "going rate" for street prostitutes in Chicago is $27/hr. Same guy studied drug dealing and determined that the street-corner seller makes about $7-8/hr, generally as an employee of whomever controls that turf. Link

By the way, his method of research is to go to these neighborhoods, get to know the people and get his info firsthand. If I recall correctly, when I lived in Chicago I read an article about him where he talks about getting guns pulled on him, etc., until the locals got used to him.


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

Mark Twenhafel said:


> University of Chicago professor Steven Levitt determined that the "going rate" for street prostitutes in Chicago is $27/hr. Same guy studied drug dealing and determined that the street-corner seller makes about $7-8/hr....


That's why I hire crack dealers rather than hookers to frame my houses
They work for less


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