# free estimates ... poor contractor



## john elliott (Oct 23, 2005)

Tscarborough said:


> John Elliot, ask an architect if he will provide a budget for your house for free as an example of a segment of our industry that has gotten away from giving away their work.



Tscarborogh , I think you missed my point

Real Purty2 didn't

John


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

Honestly, whether to charge for an estimate or not, in my opinion, all boils down to what the project is. 

If your doing repair work that boils down to little more than deciding which material the customer wants/needs and how many hours it will take, it's not worthy of a fee based estimate. As business owners, we invest an hour or so of our time to a customer to meet/greet, sell them on using our company and provide the approximate cost. If it makes you feel unpaid to do so, consider it advertising and a marketing opportunity which we all pay for anyway.

When it's designing someone a custom kitchen, bath, addition, or creating something based on your design and suggestion... that's a chargable service.


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## PressurePros (Jul 3, 2006)

realpurty2 said:


> Honestly, whether to charge for an estimate or not, in my opinion, all boils down to what the project is.
> 
> If your doing repair work that boils down to little more than deciding which material the customer wants/needs and how many hours it will take, it's not worthy of a fee based estimate. As business owners, we invest an hour or so of our time to a customer to meet/greet, sell them on using our company and provide the approximate cost. If it makes you feel unpaid to do so, consider it advertising and a marketing opportunity which we all pay for anyway.
> 
> When it's designing someone a custom kitchen, bath, addition, or creating something based on your design and suggestion... that's a chargable service.


Exactly. Build it into the cost of doing business as an overhead and charge accordingly for your work. Advertise "free initial consultation" if your work requires a long process to put together an estimated cost proposal. Meeting with the customer and taking measurements does not take a ton of time and even if it does take longer than expected that lead just became hot so its worth the time you will spend. 

If a builder said to me it will cost $250 to put together a detailed proposal for my new addition I would consider that money well spent. It would also make me think twice about getting five different estimates. Initially though I would want to meet with the company representative for free so I could get a feel for their professionalism before deciding to move on. Ironically, I would find this practice more professional and a sign of a company that knows its operational costs (ie they have their sh*t together)


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

RealPurty and others who agree with her,

I appreciate the critiquing, truly. I also did provide that the HO could receive our standard proposal, which always is extremely detailed and address all and much more than Purty suggested. 

If that is the preferred route they would like to take, I would have no objections to that as well.

Here is a self-examination question for you on how and why you disected the language and "excessive salesmanship methodology". 

Do you feel, that since you are in business and that you read about multiple different ways and approaches you have read on how to sell the infamous widget, that your perception may be jaded? I am not criticising your objections, but wonder if a HO would be as turned off by that approach as you stated or if they may possibly appreciate the consultive guidance and advice approach versus the direct selling method that most untrained or semi-trained sales personal utilize.

Ed


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

One more thing.

What if the entire approach were not intended to be a fee based consultation? Would that then change the thinking on your part? 

After all, the primary goal is to not find a way to earn a small pitance for providing estimates, but to acquire the signed agreement to provide the job, which does and should have the appropeiate dollars already included in the cost to cover the estimating time.

Thank You,

Ed


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## PressurePros (Jul 3, 2006)

Hard to say, Ed. I could put my sales presentation in writing and 90% would read it in print, devoid of emotion and say "I would never buy from this guy". They would be seeking 'salesman' and they would find it. In reality, I can close very high percentages regardless of what I am selling because I have been doing it for a long time. I know how to listen to people in casual conversation and understand what benefits will push their buttons. 

The way I read your post, Ed. It seems very "talk at me" as opposed to meeting my wants and needs. If I listened to that I would think that you were giving me something _you_ thought I needed. Many salesepeople (especially educated ones) do that and it creates mistrust. Sort of the "this guy thinks he is smarter than me and maybe he is but that means I risk getting fleeced" As soon as a prospect gets that feeling, you may as well close your mouth and find the door. 

Keep in mind, I don't know your personality and technique. I'm sure you wouldn't fire that verbatim at a customer and probably meant the whole schpiel as an outline versus a canned speech.


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## PressurePros (Jul 3, 2006)

This whole topic reaffirms why one cannot define their companies with themself in every role. That can only work for a relative short time. If you are out giving time to estimates thats time you should be working/marketing/refining your business model/whatever. There are only so many hours in a day.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

Absolutely Ken.

Whenever I read my own writings, especially if I were irritated at a customer and really wanted to make a point, I usually reread it over and over again until I over edit the heck out of it. Then I take that masterfully written script and heave it into the folder, just to keep the points at the forefront of my awareness. Then, by the time I actually speak with the client, it comes out significantly smoother in the verbal translation.

The same goes for this spiel. It is just another avenue to explore. I have my doubts if someone could be convinced to pay for a "consultant specification" for "just a roof", but that is why it is offered as an option. 

The true option being offered is the detailed proposal that I sit down with every family to go through with covering their needs and desires. This just may establish a higher standard that any other competitors may have to meet now. Maybe?

I am always looking for different and improved ways to do the same thing.

Ed


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

You might consider calling it a trip charge instead of going into the whole why I charge for an estimate. Trip charges are getting more and more familiar to homeowners. You can get them for repair work or just estimating larger projects much easier then a charge for an estimate.

Charge for an estimate as part 2 of an estimate. I've done this many times, after the initial estimate, once a customer sees everything we are talking about doing on paper already (usually about 10 pages for our free estimate) if they want more we call it a design retainer and they usually write the check. However I rarely ask for one since I can usually tell by this point where we are anyways and just keep going for free because I'm 80% sure we are doing the job anyways.

Charge for an estimate if you estimate actually is something other than 100 words and a price on a Nebs form

Charge for estimates, all of you please! Please do it. That's when I will stop charging for them and use it my advantage against you all.:thumbup:


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## realpurty2 (Aug 18, 2005)

Ed the Roofer said:


> One more thing.
> 
> What if the entire approach were not intended to be a fee based consultation? Would that then change the thinking on your part?
> 
> ...


I think what I'm not understanding is where the relationship of "how" you are selling vs "what" you are selling. If your goal is to promote your company, then the sales technique you mentioned in the previous example would be ok. You do address many advantages of your company over the competition. I think this type approach is best used when you can read a customer well and feel that their decision is being weighed on the skills of the contractor involved only. What I didn't see in that example was what I was getting for the price. If you asked me for a fee to tell me what I was getting, unless it was some form of design process, I'd balk. 

For me personally as a buyer.. I'm finicky, I want the absolute best and price isn't an issue in some respects. In other words, I'll spend what I have to in order to get what I want, but I also want a reasonable price too. I prefer the personal approach from someone I'm hiring to do work for me over the canned "I'm the best choice" approach. What I think alot of us fail to realize is that every bidder is going to be convinced they are the best choice. When you go out to do a sale, it is highly likely your repeating what the last bidder told the client too. If you truly want to outshine the guy before you, offer everything he does AND MORE. 

For example: Contractor A comes out to bid my roof. His price 10k. He spends his time telling me all about how his company is the right choice.

Contractor B price is 12k but he spent his time explaining to me about the different types of roofing materials available to me, he offered suggestions at the most economic methods of resolving any problems he noted with my existing roof, he highlighted his company's key points, and also told me what to expect from doing business with him. He even addressed my landscaping and what steps he'd take to protect it during the demo! I didn't feel anything shady about him, he was forthcoming with information and answered all my questions. 

Contractor B just got my business even though he was 2k higher. 

Sell based on the customer's needs not your own. We may want to focus on why we are the best, but it isn't something the last guy didn't do either and it's not likely anything the customer will retain in memory after you leave.


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## Ed the Roofer (Dec 12, 2006)

(Duplicate Post from the similar thread)

How do I attempt to create them to have a "Desire" for my services?

I seperate from the traditional crowd of wanna be contractors.

How?

My 1st contact from them is a very detailed and informationally extracting procedure in itself. The basic phone script is 3 pages long, very liberally spaced, and I use the opportunity to find out as much about their true vision they desire. (I do not utilize the entire script but it allows me or my secretary some written guidance on which direction to direct the initial contactors questions.)

I inquire about any past projects they experienced or heard about from friends, and find out if they were satisfied with the items that were important to them. I symphathize with their rarely 100 % satisfaction results of their story. As the conversation begins to become more like them relating to a friend rather than one of the contractors they are seeking, I ask what and how would they like to see the project go forth. I take notes. I advise them of our pre-job, interim job, and post job evaluations for complete success and satisfaction.

I offer them a FREE 10 Point Guide on "What You Should Know Before Hiring Any Contractor." It is very ruthless as far as how high the standards MUST be if they expect to get better than a "Coin Flip" for great results. 

I also put their mind at ease when that Guide is sent out by including a list of the most recent 75 projects we have completed in the area. I also include a list of about 30 customers "Testimonials" touting what ever they personally felt was the best aspect of being associated with our Roofing Company.

I explain the difference between "just an estimate" and a more consultive approach, by offering a "Scope and Budget Analysis" defining the manufacturers minimum specifications, the local buillding codes which apply, and the higher standard specifications which we will provide for this service. I inform them that there is no contractual committment upon acceptance of this specification analysis and witten advice on what the proper selection of standards they would bwe best served seeking for a more uniform "bidding" criteria. (Once I am in the door sitting with the homeowners, the rest is easy)

I ask them if they would be interested in saving the time of having to review multiple quotes, none of which are bidding apples to apples anyway, and for a "token" fee, allow us to perform the specification standards writing and review for them. It is not so much the amount of the fee that I am seeking, but a test of the level of quality desired to improve their home. After all, who would want to purchase a product with a stated 30 year life and find out that between 90 % to 95 % of those products installed begin to require replacement as early as 12 to 15 years from now?

The reality is, that I really do not care if they choose the service offered, but as long as they entertained the thought of it enough to meet with me in person to qualify the standards.

Okay, now I am set up to be the "Expert" from their point of view. This needs to be proven, not with technical lingo BS, but as to how each of the higher end chosen products will assist them in not having to spend money fruitlessly. Show them the benefits of the value even after 15 years had gone by. One method is the ROI method from the Remodelers magazine. Add to that mix, the yearly inflation factor. 

Now, 2 paths to take; If they are a young couple, provide a workable financing agreement to keep their monthly payments down to a comfortable level after they have paid off at least the first 2/3 to 3/4 of the amount. Instant upgrade! They will be thinking of selling in about 5 to 10 years, and now you can have them appreciate the additional longetivity of the roofing installation done correctly. The realtor and the home inspector will not be advising 10 years later that they will have to discount the price or throw on a new roof just to make it sellable.

Other age bracket; They are closer to 50 or so. How would they like to think about spending their hard earned fixed income retirement funds on a new roof or discount the asking price at the point in life that they would want to sell and downsize.

I impart my credentials with them through an ongoing process, which includes, documentation of reliability, a personal interview with the client to afford them the opportunity to "feel" out my "expert" knowledge, a list of over 2,000 residential references, provide sound consumer advocacy advice, reveal the address of our established office and shop instead of a Mail Boxes etc. Suite address or working out of my garage, provide a human staff to answer all of their incoming calls, provide proof of State roofing license, Gen liability ins, Work comp ins, and the required bond certificate. The specifications provided are more detailed, yet user friendly and understandable than they ever could have imagined especially when I spend up to an hour or so going over it with them and always ask if they feel such and such is necessary. I provide proof of trained employees versus farmed out "cheapest sub" available for your job verification. I include a list of contracting awards and trade association memberships or seminars to advance my continual knowledge of my art. 

Now, they have a real good feel for what I can provide for them. After this initial consultation, I do not believe that they would want to pursue the "cheapest" bid method of contractor selection. Even if they do check out the others and inform them of the specifications they have as a requirement to be met, most do not provide what they are looking for at that point.

The bar has been raised to a higher standard than most are equiped to deal with on their typical bid process.

A properly installed roof provides long term financial security.

A properly ventilated attic provides a healthier living environment.

A distinguishable roof provides prestige and respect for the entire building structure to follow suit with.

A warranty from a contractor who has been in business for nearly a quarter of a century provides peace of mind.

Protection from the winter elements are provided by the correct specification of additional Ice and Water shield.

Summer air conditioning bills are reduced by the proper flowage of equally balanced fresh air intake and attict exhaust ventilation systems.

Better health is afforded by the minimization of the primary cause of mold infestation in the home from the same balanced air flow.

So you see, there are more things to be considered when purchasing a new roof than just get me some new shingles up there as fast as possible.

Ed

(This belated response was for John and RealPurty, who I had promised a response from later several evenings ago.)


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## ApgarNJ (Apr 16, 2006)

i don't come out and say i am charging them for the estimate. most people just assume anymore. they dont' even ask if it's free.
i always put in X amount of hours for gas/and office time spent on the project prior to starting it, into my quote, so if i get the job, then i know i'm at least covered for that. because so many of my jobs are personal referrals, i do get a large percentage of them because they want me on the job.

i do wish across the board though, everyone would start charging for estimates. for the big jobs. i spend hours upon hours and phone time, driving around taking the subs the prints etc. it all adds up.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

*Nothing is free*

Free estimates may go away, I hope so!
For a front door or a countertop ect, I dont bring up charging for a bid.
For a kitchen or bath, I visit, ask and answer questions, and ballpark a price. I don't bid kitchen bath remodels without a design.

Ask the homeowner what they are thinking and make a connection to try and meet their wants or needs.
I have 30 years experience and a few certifications, I don't bring this up although it is true. 
The customer gets my attention, thats it.
As for pro talk, the lady is correct. Be quiet and listen. 
It's about the customer, not how good we are. Or how bad others are.
If I ask you the time, don't tell me how you would build me a clock.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 30, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> i
> 
> 
> we GIVE AWAY 4-8 hours of time on an estimate (includes meeting time)
> ...


Dont you selll any of those estimates?? if you do close some, I wouldn't consider it giving away 20 to 40 hrs a week. Wouldn't you consider that your getting paid when you sell a job??? Some might consider this the cost of doing buisness.

With that said, I would love to able to charge for estimate. Im all ears:thumbsup:

dave mac


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## ruskent (Jun 20, 2005)

This whole topic has been on my mind for awhile. Now its very hard for me to give a price without a design. Acctually its impossible. I just got a referal from a good customer. I go met with there friends. There looking at 175-200k in work. Nice job.

So i give them a proposal for $4200 in design fees. I am still waiting to here back from them. The break down was 1250 for the engineer to do a topo survey. 1850 for the LA. 400 for a guy to draft the deck plans and the rest was for my time. I am still waiting to here back from these people to get the okay and the check to start the design.


Whats funny is the design fee should be alot higher. The engineered plans for the retaining walls will cost $950 and the lot grading plan that will be required by the town will cost $2,000. I work these into the price of the job and do not have these done until we have a contract signed. However, in reality i should be getting over 7k up front from these people.


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## fez-head (Mar 15, 2005)

I charge a $35 trip charge for new clients especially on insurance jobs. 
I used to worry about what they would think because "the other guys" are not charging. NO MORE :no: It is not so scary once you start doing it :laughing: 

If anyone is on the fence just try it for a few weeks. You will be surprised at how many people *really get* that your limited amount of time is just as valuable as theirs and they will pay for it. 


Also from past experience the insurance companies that require 3 estimates will reimburse the client for my trip charges. 

Good luck in whatever you choose,
Jesse


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

*Insurance reimburse*

I have been reimbursed by the insurance company also. Or rather the customer was reimbursed for my $65 bid fee.
Charging for bids made me nervous at first, but for the last 2 years it has gotten easier and I am more comfortable asking for a bid fee.
Whatever works for you I guess.
As for the poster who hired the roofer and would not pay for a roof bid, good for you. But free bids will go away sooner or later for most well run and ethical companies.
The $1500 vinyl window people and the $1500 per square vinyl companies will always give free estimates, along with snowmobiles and cruises to lucky contest winners.


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## Grumpyplumber (May 6, 2007)

*I recently switched.*
*a large majority of the work in my trade is first come first served, on the emergency service and repair end there's no estimate, just get there as quick as you can and it's yours.*
*On larger jobs like remodels, boilers, or repipes, I'm learning that asking for a trip/estimate fee serves a good purpose.*
*I'm still experimenting, but it seems like the ones that aren't willing to pay the fee are the same ones who want the work cheap.*
*Kinda a double negative there, loosely translated, if I'm willing to offer my time for free, I'm also likely to have to offer it for less.*
*This could be one of the factors that eventually depicts the type client you work for, your level of income as your business evolves.*


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## Putty Truck (Oct 6, 2007)

Grumpyplumber said:


> *I recently switched.*
> *a large majority of the work in my trade is first come first served, on the emergency service and repair end there's no estimate, just get there as quick as you can and it's yours.*
> *On larger jobs like remodels, boilers, or repipes, I'm learning that asking for a trip/estimate fee serves a good purpose.*
> *I'm still experimenting, but it seems like the ones that aren't willing to pay the fee are the same ones who want the work cheap.*
> ...


Yep.

The thing I say on the phone is "There is a $45.00 service charge to come out" and the qualified customer says fine. 

The looky-loo will find some excuse to back out.


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## ModernStyle (May 7, 2007)

I like the idea, but painters are regarded as the lowest of the trades and I doubt it would work for us.


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## silvertree (Jul 22, 2007)

*Painters*

Painters around here are respected pros (Mpls).

Anyone can paint, but not everyone is a painter.

There is a world of difference between a professional painter and someone who paints. 

Same goes for carpenters which I proudly am.

"I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam, I'm Popeye the sailor man" Toot Toot!
Be proud.


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## Chip_Block (Oct 19, 2007)

N.A. Sorry - wrong post.


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## dirt diggler (May 14, 2006)

dirt diggler said:


> Maybe im in the wrong business ....




hey, it's either this .... or playin 3rd base for the Braves, baby :thumbsup:


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## RenaissanceR (May 16, 2006)

*Another Classic...*

[deleted]


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## DavidC (Feb 16, 2008)

We started this idea a few years ago and it worked pretty well. Since then we had gotten busy enough to forget it and went back to our old ways. Everybody gets a free estimate and we got a fee for our proposals. (The idea came from a plumber freind of mine after I was complaining about estimates people thought could be built for the price of materials.)

Our sales strategy is first sell yourself, second sell your company and then move on to the desired service. First two steps are brief. Third step is listen to the customer as they explain what they are planning. Perhaps a little back and forth to make sure you understand what they are asking for or clarify any points for them.

Now reach for the book.

R S Means Home Improvement Costs (2 book set, one interior, one exterior, about $70 total) A practical Guide for Homeowners and Contractors is the book we use. Update it every year to stay current. It is written in the HO's tounge and they can understand it easily. There is an adjustment chart in the back to make the pricing local.

Each project is listed as economy, standard and deluxe with materials cost and completed cost for each level. Many projects have additional options and expected costs. I can usually find something close, point to the cost and ask what they think. *This is the free estimate.*

Many times they are suprised at the cost and realize they either can't afford the project or possibly our company. In this case we part friendly and the books have paid for themselves many times over in timed saved not doing those estimates. Some of these folks have actually referred us to customers we sold.

Or, they figured it was going to be about that much and want to move on to the next step. Well that requires a bit of leg work, some careful planning, a bit of paperwork to put it together and a refundable detail fee. We want to make sure that what you desire is permitable, can be done within a set time frame or co-ordinated with subs, a detailed proposal (specifications) and the fee is refundable towards the contract if we are hired. Otherwise it is nonrefundable and you can use the specs for competetive bidding, which we don't engage in normally. Most importantly, we want to make sure our quote to you is accurate and avoids unpleasant suprises after we start.

Like I said, it worked well but we forgot it somewhere along the line. With current conditions it may be time to reconnect and stop wasting time.

Good Luck
Dave


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

The ability to do free estimates will depend greatly on the average contract price. On a $10,000 plus project a few hours estimating can be added into the contract. If the average contract is in the $500 range, as with residential electrical service, those few hours will be a significant percentage of the time spent on the contract. These small contracts are where a charge is justified.
As stated earlier by the master, with a small charge the closing rate goes over 90% with a good presentation.


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## wellbuilthome (Feb 5, 2008)

I think your have a point . I like your idea of hi balling . I think Ive been sweating the whole bid thing to much . I think when the money starts to flow again the old bids will start coming back to haunt us . From now on every other bid gets hi balled , Every 4th caller gets charged for there consultation and written proposal . If nothing else i can get some warm dinner at dinner time and save some diesel . I haven't talked to a HO with any money in a long time anyway . I will test the new sales system for 90 days . I mite subtract there consultation fee from the job.


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