# I'm new...need advise



## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

T-towngirl said:


> Anyone had any luck in small claims? Or is that a waste of time? Just in case she ignores everything else.


Yes. READ the court/small claims instructions carefully & understand them. Have all your documentation, receipts etc. laid out. Prepare for your court date. Create an outline that shows/explains how the project progressed. Admit to any errors you made.

KEEP EMOTIONS OUT OF IT. Just the facts, ma'am...:thumbsup:


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks Griz. Hopefully I can get this resolved.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

One other thing, not knowing OK laws I can only tell you what ours are. If a client has a problem with your work they have to give you reasonable time and access to the problem, to make it right. They can't just throw you out and say I'm not paying you. Now they can throw you out as long as they pay you according to the terms of your contract.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

And no there are no GC licensing requirements for residential in Ok. I have a degree in Interior design and construction management. Most of my knowledge came from doing rather than schooling tho.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Really! I need to check on that! Cuz I have called and texted and told her this is not a big deal to fix. It's touch up paint for goodness sake! Who has no touch up when job is finished?!? She called some other painter who was trying to get the work and probably told her everything was done wrong and he needs to redo it. It's a great paint job sprayed by my crew...2 coats primer 3 coats of paint! Sanding between each coat! What can this painter possibly do except My Touchup!? I was wondering if I could be fired for trying to finish my job. If we have those same rights that would really help


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

T-towngirl said:


> Really! I need to check on that! Cuz I have called and texted and told her this is not a big deal to fix. It's touch up paint for goodness sake! Who has no touch up when job is finished?!? She called some other painter who was trying to get the work and probably told her everything was done wrong and he needs to redo it. It's a great paint job sprayed by my crew...2 coats primer 3 coats of paint! Sanding between each coat! What can this painter possibly do except My Touchup!? I was wondering if I could be fired for trying to finish my job. If we have those same rights that would really help


If I'm a judge, her not giving you a chance to fix it, would tell me her intentions were to get out of payment. It definitely tells him her priority wasn't to get it fixed.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

This has really given me some hope! I have worked for a lot of attorneys. I'll have to find out if that is law here too. Thank you!!!!!


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

And yes all my family and subs thinks that is what she is trying to pull as well. I can't tell you how much better I feel after being up all night stressing! You all have been great! And I luv this Forum! So glad I found it! I'm about to download app on my phone...Thanks everyone!


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

I had a similar problem for $3,000 also. I hired an attorney to file the lien. I realize they are easy, but he charged me $300. For me, it was worth it just knowing everything was done correctly. Even though her house is paid for, you never know what will happen in the future. 
Lien first, then look toward small claims court. In alot of states you only have 90 days to file a lien.
I figured I would never see my money. Turns out I got paid within a year.

Good luck.


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## mstrat (Jul 10, 2013)

Also to note: the painter coming in to "fix" the problem beware...when I get a call from someone who has openly admitted to being in a lawsuit or kicking another contractor I know is decent in the shin, I'm out before the phone call is finished. Some jobs really aren't worth getting! 

Hope you get your cash! We all work too hard to do crap for free...it's a JOB, not a fun hobby you accidentally pay for!


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## CQC (Aug 5, 2013)

Find a collection agency to do the collection for you. You have split whatever they are able to collect, sometimes as high as 50% but they do all the work for you.


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## parkers5150 (Dec 5, 2008)

keep us posted:thumbsup:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

CQC said:


> Find a collection agency to do the collection for you. You have split whatever they are able to collect, sometimes as high as 50% but they do all the work for you.


Actually from what my dentist told me, (he's a buddy) he said he sells all his uncollected accounts to a collection agency, for 20% of cost. Then he doesn't deal with them anymore. He writes it off as a loss and gets them off his books.


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## CQC (Aug 5, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> Actually from what my dentist told me, (he's a buddy) he said he sells all his uncollected accounts to a collection agency, for 20% of cost. Then he doesn't deal with them anymore. He writes it off as a loss and gets them off his books.


The last collections firm I spoke with offered a 50-50 split on what ever they were able to collect, but taking 20 cents on the dollar is one way to forget and move on with more productive clients.


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## Okiecontractor (Oct 15, 2012)

Some times just a call from a lawyer helps push them in the right direction. 

And dont take a payment plan if she tries doing that. Full payment or lien. Even if she owns the house outright she may decide to sell some day and it'll still be there.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Amen to that! The kitchen looks great! I can't imagine what bs went on in that meeting.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks everyone for support and all your great advise. Here is the latest update. Like I said before I have texted and asked her if we could have a meeting to discuss what needs to be done to make her happy. She said she would meet with me but that she is definately decided to go w another company. I am doing this because I have no pics of my finished product since I thought I was doing final touchup tomorrow but got fired over the holidays. Friday is when I got the phone call and I had not taken pics yet. Anyway, I have called another local contractor who is much bigger than me and very experienced to accompany me. He said he would look at everything and help me out either to do Touchup in my stead or just witness that I am 99% done with her job. If I have to go to court I will have pics and him as a witness. I'll post pics tomorrow when I get them. My only worry is we are meeting at 6pm and what if that other jack___ had already started sanding off my paint job


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## Okiecontractor (Oct 15, 2012)

T-towngirl said:


> My only worry is we are meeting at 6pm and what if that other jack___ had already started sanding off my paint job


Politely ask that no one begins work until she points out everything to you. Tell her its so you can learn from your mistakes if you need to and take pictures. If it goes to court she can make it out to be much worse than it really is. Pics will prove otherwise. 

Besides I wouldnt want anyone working on my house that could get there on that short of a notice.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

I will thanks!!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

T-towngirl said:


> Thanks everyone for support and all your great advise. Here is the latest update. Like I said before I have texted and asked her if we could have a meeting to discuss what needs to be done to make her happy. She said she would meet with me but that she is definately decided to go w another company. I am doing this because I have no pics of my finished product since I thought I was doing final touchup tomorrow but got fired over the holidays. Friday is when I got the phone call and I had not taken pics yet. Anyway, I have called another local contractor who is much bigger than me and very experienced to accompany me. He said he would look at everything and help me out either to do Touchup in my stead or just witness that I am 99% done with her job. If I have to go to court I will have pics and him as a witness. I'll post pics tomorrow when I get them. My only worry is we are meeting at 6pm and what if that other jack___ had already started sanding off my paint job


This is inappropriate on her behalf. It's very critical you log all the times, dates of every phone call and communication you have with her. If she has someone there repairing the work that fast it's because she thinks it will get her out of your bill. I think a judge will see right through this, they're not stupid (usually). The time frame this all happened will be critical to your case. 

You don't want her claiming she kept calling you and you wouldn't answer her calls or emails so she was left with no other choice but to hire someone else to fix it. She won't be able to do this if you go in there with a properly prepared case.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

You are right about oak grain and I will be very careful to point this out next time.


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

If the husband has reached out to you, talk to him. Find out what is going on, and what can be done. If you can reach an agreement you will be better off. Getting your money (or at least most of your money) now, is better than probably getting it a year from now. And avoid attorney fees. Although you have already contacted your attorney, you can still work it out with the homeowner. 
A couple of things might have happened. They calmed down and took a good look at the kitchen. Friends or relatives have looked at the kitchen and told them it is ok and they are being ridiculous or one of your competitors looked at the kitchen and told them it was good.
If they contacted a competitor, he/she might have told them nobody would work on their project if they have a history of non-payment.
In my opinion, contact him and see if things can be worked out. That won't cost you anything.
Good luck


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

You should absolutely contact him back... He was the one who said he would take care of it remember?

"Well, your honor, I TRIED to work it out with her, here's the text but she ignored me"...

I would encourage you to contact him, but I would not take one dime less than is what is owed. Have him on speaker-phone with a witness, and if you meet, bring a witness... it's when you don't take these per-cautions is when it comes back to bite you in the butt..

Go get paid... :thumbsup:


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## Brian Peters (Feb 2, 2011)

Definitely contact the husband. I'm just guessing here that he is a more reasonable person than she is. If she was really upset when you met with them before he may have sided with her simply because she is his wife and he has to live with her. Am I making any sense?


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## brickhook (May 8, 2012)

I've read this whole thread, and I've looked at your pictures. From looking at your pictures I think you did a fine job. I hadn't commented because I'm not a painter or a kitchen guy, but we all are contractors. And I really believe you're being scammed.

I know your feelings are hurt, as mine would be also, but I feel You must go talk to the husband. The evening you met with them and took another contractor with you they probably felt like they were being backed in a corner so he felt he had to defend his wife. 

They've had time to think about it. At least go see him, maybe there is a solution waiting. I'm wishing you the best of luck because we all agree with you.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I will give him a call and update what happens.


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## Brian Peters (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm hoping we see more pics of your work....


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Ok here is the latest: I spoke with the husband and he has convinced his wife to have me come back and address their concerns about the job. He told me he would deal with me rather than her. I told him that as stated at our last meeting it was always my position to address any specific concerns but that I require the draw due at the 50% completion phase and the reimbursement for the paint and tile I purchased at a discount for them which they were to provide for job. I wanted to add that they wanted to purchase paint and tile so they were sure there was no mark-up on my part, but then found out I could get them cheaper so asked if I would purchase for them and they would reimburse. I normally include paint and tile in my bids unless customers have already purchased tile. I trustingly did this as a favor. My bad. 

Anyway, he is not willing to pay me anything. I got tired of holding my tongue and listening to his position and just told him to email me a punch list. I plan on emailing him back and saying that work will not commence until payment and reimbursement for materials have been made and cleared. This still allows him to hold $700.00 for final payment as stated in my contract. I have a feeling this is $700 I will never see even if I fix everything. 

What do y'all think?

What do you guys think?


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

If your [valid, legal] contract says they owe you money now, before completion and final payment, I wouldn't touch a thing until they pay you that amount. $700 at the end seems fair enough. :thumbsup:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

T-towngirl said:


> Ok here is the latest: I spoke with the husband and he has convinced his wife to have me come back and address their concerns about the job. He told me he would deal with me rather than her. I told him that as stated at our last meeting it was always my position to address any specific concerns but that I require the draw due at the 50% completion phase and the reimbursement for the paint and tile I purchased at a discount for them which they were to provide for job. I wanted to add that they wanted to purchase paint and tile so they were sure there was no mark-up on my part, but then found out I could get them cheaper so asked if I would purchase for them and they would reimburse. I normally include paint and tile in my bids unless customers have already purchased tile. I trustingly did this as a favor. My bad. Anyway, he is not willing to pay me anything. I got tired of holding my tongue and listening to his position and just told him to email me a punch list. I plan on emailing him back and saying that work will not commence until payment and reimbursement for materials have been made and cleared. This still allows him to hold $700.00 for final payment as stated in my contract. I have a feeling this is $700 I will never see even if I fix everything. What do y'all think? What do you guys think?


Take what you can and tell them to pound sand and keep the other 7 bills. That's what I would do. Simply put they will not be happy no matter what. When you invoice the job put on the invoice this money is for everything except fixing their issues. That way you can make a case that everything is paid for and the 700 is what is left to have things fixed if they so choose. IMO.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> Take what you can and tell them to pound sand and keep the other 7 bills. That's what I would do. Simply put they will not be happy no matter what. When you invoice the job put on the invoice this money is for everything except fixing their issues. That way you can make a case that everything is paid for and the 700 is what is left to have things fixed if they so choose. IMO.


That's a feel-good solution, but technically would be a breach of contract on her part. At that point, they'd be free to bring in another contractor who would start from scratch to re-do the job, and they could go after her for an even bigger chunk of change. :sad:


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Screw these people,... it's breach of contract and nothing more 

Probably addicted to alcohol and prescription drugs and suffer the usual bipolar mood swings associated with these addictions.

I this were me, i wouldn't text or call or even email...I'd have to look her/him in the eye and tell them "I'll see you in court!...you've wasted enough of my time." 

Let her open up her trash talking mouth in front of the judge and see where that gets her.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Tinstaafl said:


> That's a feel-good solution, but technically would be a breach of contract on her part. At that point, they'd be free to bring in another contractor who would start from scratch to re-do the job, and they could go after her for an even bigger chunk of change. :sad:


Doesn't it depend on what is considered a bad job? Just because a customer doesn't like it doesn't mean it wasn't done as per contract agreement. So if the contract was satisfied then there was no breach.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Do you whatever your contract says... if it says they owe you money at this stage, get the money. I am not clear where the $700 comes in. but remind them of their contractual obligations and that you look forward to completing their punch list. Any other issues are covered under warranty.

Be sure to document everything. Send him an email BEFORE he sends the punch-list reiterating your conversation and the expected punch list.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

:laughing: I'm still waiting on his punch list. I really hope he doesn't agree to pay at this point because I don't want to work for these crazy people anymore! I am a very tolerant person but this is way beyond what I am willing to put up with. I have not been yelled at like that since I got caught sneaking out by my Mom! (30 years ago). He doesn't yell but is definitely unreasonable. 

I think I will get my $ eventually, it's just a matter of time. 

Thanks to everyone for all the help!!!:clap: I will let everyone know if I have to go back.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Californiadecks said:


> Doesn't it depend on what is considered a bad job? Just because a customer doesn't like it doesn't mean it wasn't done as per contract agreement. So if the contract was satisfied then there was no breach.


Point taken, but the OP has indicated that right now, it's not a good/finished job by her standards. So if the client says it's not finished, and the OP says it's not finished... who are we to say differently?

While a court might disagree with both of them and side with the OP, I wouldn't want to test that without seeing the end product in person.


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## Smithanator (Feb 18, 2013)

I am mad at ho . They are trying to screw you. It looks like you did a more than satisfactory job . Those type of people are assholes and Iam a firm believer in what goes around comes around. I hope you get paid. This strikes a nerve with me and I think a lot of the contractors on this forum. I think most of us have been screwed out of money before ,by people like your customers. Straight a holes looking to screw anyone over to save a buck.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Still no punch list...hmm.


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## Big Shoe (Jun 16, 2008)

I have been hired to fix someone else's perfect work before. :blink:

I've had to tell whacko people to let it rest..............Trying to fix perfectly good work is nuts. :no:


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## builditguy (Nov 10, 2013)

For my opinion, I hope you get the punch list. They need to pay what they up to this point. Talk with your lawyer about this. Although they are being unreasonable, make sure they are being unreasonable in the eyes of the law. Sometimes common sense and the law don't match up.
For me, I would try to get my money, then go back and correct any issues that you see with the project. They may have some other complaints, but just because they complain doesn't mean it is wrong.
Remember, they are telling everyone they know about your work. When they tell people, you want the other people to be on your side and think you did everything you could. I realize alot of people will not side with them, but you don't know what they are saying. Try to do the best you can. It will also look better for you in court. I have a fair amount of court time experience and it is the judge's world. I have seen some unbelievable verdicts.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

She's been in business for years and according to her, this is the first bad client... Takes more than one to cause an issue... 

From what she has posted, IMHO she is on very solid ground...


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## KennMacMoragh (Sep 16, 2008)

T-towngirl said:


> :laughing: I'm still waiting on his punch list. I really hope he doesn't agree to pay at this point because I don't want to work for these crazy people anymore! I am a very tolerant person but this is way beyond what I am willing to put up with. I have not been yelled at like that since I got caught sneaking out by my Mom! (30 years ago). He doesn't yell but is definitely unreasonable. I think I will get my $ eventually, it's just a matter of time. Thanks to everyone for all the help!!!:clap: I will let everyone know if I have to go back.


He asked you to come back and you said email a punch list instead? It sounds like you are refusing to fix the problem. Maybe he doesn't want to send an email because he thinks it would be easier to discuss in person. I realize they are annoying but you need to make a decision to either take care of their concerns or give up the $3000 and tell them you want nothing more to do with the job. You're confusing them and yourself, you need to be upfront and tell them where you stand.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

I agree. I really hope I get it too. I still have not heard. I want it in writing so that I can request payment before proceeding with punch list. Then when they refuse I will have that in writing. It was my bad to let the project get ahead of the payment schedule and I've learned a valuable lesson. I have actually done this a lot and never had a problem, but it just takes one time to realize this is not a good idea. This project went fast and homeowners get home after you leave, etc. I just let it go. 95% of my clients have been great and some have become friends. I've had some "different" ones that gave me a headache or two but they were still happy and paid me. I had one guy call 10 of my references (retired engineer, very anal) and he said suspiciously to me "it's hard to believe not one of your clients had any issues". I finished the job and he asked for cards. I have great guys working for me and this is to their credit as much as mine. This is why I was so shocked when this happened. My former client who recommended me to these people has apologized profusely to me and her husband who is an attorney gave me a construction attny to call. Like I said I had a "gut" feeling I dismissed when the lady kept trying to get freebies. Oh well, lesson learned. At least it wasn't a job that would put me out on the street.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

KennMacMoragh said:


> He asked you to come back and you said email a punch list instead? It sounds like you are refusing to fix the problem. Maybe he doesn't want to send an email because he thinks it would be easier to discuss in person. I realize they are annoying but you need to make a decision to either take care of their concerns or give up the $3000 and tell them you want nothing more to do with the job. You're confusing them and yourself, you need to be upfront and tell them where you stand.


I had a conversation discussing every concern. I was on the phone w him for 45 min. I told him I needed the 50% draw before I could proceed. I also reiterated that this was my position all along. ( If you will notice i am finished except for these "concerns") He was refusing to pay and kept telling me why. Rather than tell him to kiss my $&@, I asked him to make a list and email it to me. How is this a mixed message. I do not WANT to work for them anymore but if he pays me I will do my best to address these concerns. How is this a mixed message to him?


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

not finishing a job started is not good. and gives the clients ammunition needed to say your a hack.
does not matter how many jobs ya did good.

an retired stone mason once told me, your remembered not by the 1000 houses you brick great, but by that one that came out bad.

its your call

money isn't everything


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

brunothedog said:


> not finishing a job started is not good. and gives the clients ammunition needed to say your a hack. does not matter how many jobs ya did good. an retired stone mason once told me, your remembered not by the 1000 houses you brick great, but by that one that came out bad. its your call money isn't everything


So your saying she should finish a job they refused to pay her for? They owe her money. She's not asking for all of it just what THEY BOTH agreed to.then she agreed to finish. Her concern is finishing the job and still not getting anything. They've already indicated they have no problem not paying her. Why would they not do it again in the end? So that now she's invested even more time and money into it without compensation. These folks are unreasonable IMO, you can't continue doing work without payment for unreasonable people.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

I am only hearing her side of the story for 1, 
Pictures help 2.
3. i never met anyone who said they did a bad job when not paid. 3.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

all Im saying is


> your remembered not by the 1000 houses you brick great, but by that one that came out bad.


And excuse me but, because someone is a member of this forum, doesn't mean they are right.

I was not asked for references when I joined


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## Okiecontractor (Oct 15, 2012)

But they at the least should reimburse for the materials they said they would pay for.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

brunothedog said:


> I am only hearing her side of the story for 1, Pictures help 2. 3. i never met anyone who said they did a bad job when not paid. 3.


She sent pictures, nothing about those pics told me she did a bad job. They want oak to not flash the grain after paint. Its like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end.


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

I'm just saying that their are 2 sides to every story, and in those picts you really cant see much.
I get alot of work from a Engineer who asks me to tag along when their are claims like this.

Last year I saw 14 jobs where the HO claimed fault. 12 of them had every right not only to pay them, but to ask for damages
And every single one of the builders said they have done a great job.
Not a single one accepted the faults.

so, said this the odds are against the builder


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## Smithanator (Feb 18, 2013)

brunothedog said:


> I'm just saying that their are 2 sides to every story, and in those picts you really cant see much.
> I get alot of work from a Engineer who asks me to tag along when their are claims like this.
> 
> Last year I saw 14 jobs where the HO claimed fault. 12 of them had every right not only to pay them, but to ask for damages
> ...


Bruno. Wouldn't you agree that perfection is impossible? And if a customer is a a hole they can find any reason to hold your money hostage ? My work , your work , or any one on this web site . no one can achieve perfection with zero flaws .As minor as they may be. It's just something we all shoot for. To build it like it was our own. And from the pics I have seen it looks like a paint job any of us would be proud of. You seem pretty insensitive to getting screwed by a a hole home owner. Wait till it happens to you and they bring in a guy like you to agree job is not up to par


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

Smithanator said:


> Bruno. Wouldn't you agree that perfection is impossible? And if a customer is a a hole they can find any reason to hold your money hostage ? My work , your work , or any one on this web site . no one can achieve perfection with zero flaws .As minor as they may be. It's just something we all shoot for. To build it like it was our own. And from the pics I have seen it looks like a paint job any of us would be proud of. You seem pretty insensitive to getting screwed by a a hole home owner. Wait till it happens to you and they bring in a guy like you to agree job is not up to par


Dont get me wrong, here, to make a claim against a builder, you first need to get an adjuster(which has to be an Engineer)
The HO calls him, and he calls me to get as to not get his hands dirty.

I explained how many I've seen, And we are not there to nit pic someone elses work.

We are there as professionals to give a professional opinion as the the HO claims, Then our results are sent to Both parties involved, and will be used in court if required.

Usually he has me stop by first to see if his services are required,


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

brunothedog said:


> Dont get me wrong, here, to make a claim against a builder, you first need to get an adjuster(which has to be an Engineer) The HO calls him, and he calls me to get as to not get his hands dirty. I explained how many I've seen, And we are not there to nit pic someone elses work. We are there as professionals to give a professional opinion as the the HO claims, Then our results are sent to Both parties involved, and will be used in court if required. Usually he has me stop by first to see if his services are required,


Who pays the adjuster? The HO?


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## brunothedog (Sep 8, 2013)

yes, most of the time, a couple of times when the builder thinks he right, they will do 50/50.
a few times the builder will call to have an adjuster look at the work because the HO isnt paying and using the quality of the work as a reason.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

brunothedog said:


> yes, most of the time, a couple of times when the builder thinks he right, they will do 50/50. a few times the builder will call to have an adjuster look at the work because the HO isnt paying and using the quality of the work as a reason.


My point is that the adjuster is going to cater to the one who pays them. Don't you think it creates a bias?


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## Smithanator (Feb 18, 2013)

Let me guess "those darn squeaky floors."Guess you would have to tear it out and start over. 10-12 That's a really high number. But then again a lot of work for you


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Hi Bruno, I can appreciate the Devils advocate side and I am not faulting you for your position but let's keep a few things in mind: 

1. My contract was x amount deposit, draw at 50% completion of job, and final payment upon completion. Also they were to reimburse for tile and paint upon receipt delivery. I am not asking for final payment!!!!! I am asking for 2nd draw and reimbursement for receipts. They can hold final payment until I do their punch list. 

2. This is a paint job and tile backsplash not a remodel. 

3. This is a pickiness issue not a hack job. 

4. I was nice and happy to go above and beyond to satisfy the customer, but they refused 2nd draw and reimbursement. They fired me so as not to pay.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

They fired me and would not let me fix anything. And now the husband wants me to but does not want to pay anything past the deposit. Who would do another thing for these people without getting some $ first? All I have received is deposit and I am out twice that amount.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Another update: I texted husband letting him know I had not yet received his punch list. He called me and said he was having his Mothers contractor come in tomorrow to give an unbiased opinion of what he thought needed to be on the punch list and to get educated from someone who has been in the business 60 years. ( how old would this guy be?) This company is very well known here nevertheless. I told him that was a good idea and I was fine with that. I did ask him if he got a bid from him (since he got such glowing reviews from this guys mother). He said no he didn't. I'm sure his price would have been double mine and deservingly so. He has a long standing well-known reputation. Any thoughts on this?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

T-towngirl said:


> He was pointing out things like a little line of paint on the glass where tape was pulled. It takes two seconds w a razor to fix! Unbelievable!!!


When the intent is to nit pick to death all manner of little insignificant details can be found.

These folks are pros.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

svronthmve said:


> Yep! There were probably warning signs all along the way.
> 
> Unfortunately, hindsight is usually 20/20!
> 
> ...


For sure!!!! Thanks!


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

My husband had beer in his mini fridge. :clap:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

I'd take him to court with the pics just to embarrass him in front of the judge.... but I'm feeling a little randy tonight...

DO NOT accept that $500...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I think it's the seven P's Griz is so old there were probably only six when he was a young carpenter. They are "prior proper planing prevent piss poor procedures"


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

griz said:


> When the intent is to nit pick to death all manner of little insignificant details can be found. These folks are pros.


 It all makes since especially when you say how nice they were and gave you a sense of comfort, definitely pros they've done this before.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

I'd take the 500 then go after the rest...because you may never see any of it.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Inner10 said:


> I'd take the 500 then go after the rest...because you may never see any of it.


But that would be accepting something other then their agreement, could turn it all upside down


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> But that would be accepting something other then their agreement, could turn it all upside down


It comes down to hard numbers...What is the specific balance?


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## Okiecontractor (Oct 15, 2012)

Inner10 said:


> I'd take the 500 then go after the rest...because you may never see any of it.


My lawyer told me to not take partial payments on stuff like that. It can be taken as you are accepting a payment plan. I'd say full payment or let the court decide.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

I am definitely taking him to court. And thanks to God I have plenty of work right now and thru Christmas. Last year I had none in Dec. which is ok when you haven't just taken an out of pocket loss. I'm small and I like it that way. But it makes it hard to afford handing over money to virtual strangers so they can have $20 per sf tile. I am going to present my case and hope for the best. If I lose the money, I will be fine and like all you guys have said, it was a great education for me. Thanks to all of you who have contributed to this thread and offered great advice and support. This forum has kept me sane thru all this. And this beer is making things much better too.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Inner10 said:


> It comes down to hard numbers...What is the specific balance?


The contract was for $3300. The paint and tile was $1150.00. Total @ $4450. They have paid 1585.00.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

T-towngirl said:


> The contract was for $3300. The paint and tile was $1150.00. Total @ $4450. They have paid 1585.00.


So they owe 2865.00.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

T-towngirl said:


> I am definitely taking him to court. And thanks to God I have plenty of work right now and thru Christmas. Last year I had none in Dec. which is ok when you haven't just taken an out of pocket loss. I'm small and I like it that way. But it makes it hard to afford handing over money to virtual strangers so they can have $20 per sf tile. I am going to present my case and hope for the best. If I lose the money, I will be fine and like all you guys have said, it was a great education for me. Thanks to all of you who have contributed to this thread and offered great advice and support. This forum has kept me sane thru all this. And this beer is making things much better too.


As long as you documented it all, including email and texts, IMHO you are on solid ground...

Best of luck... 8^)


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Okiecontractor said:


> My lawyer told me to not take partial payments on stuff like that. It can be taken as you are accepting a payment plan. I'd say full payment or let the court decide.


Yes I agree. My lawyer told me the same.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

When you go to court be prepared to have them drag all sorts of dirty laundry in front of the judge. They'll blame chit on you that you had nothing to do with.

The fact they have the older high end experienced guy on their side will be a tough hurdle. 

Get your ducks in a row.

You should at least get your money for the materials back.

Good luck...:thumbsup:


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

griz said:


> When you go to court be prepared to have them drag all sorts of dirty laundry in front of the judge. They'll blame chit on you that you had nothing to do with. The fact they have the older high end experienced guy on their side will be a tough hurdle. Get your ducks in a row. You should at least get your money for the materials back. Good luck...:thumbsup:


I believe if the judge will take their witness into account, he needs to let T-Girl get her own witness to look at it also, otherwise his testimony should not be admissible


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

I personally don't believe this will go past pre-trial deposition.... but the first side who blinks loses...


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

T-towngirl said:


> The contract was for $3300. The paint and tile was $1150.00. Total @ $4450. They have paid 1585.00.


Ahh ok I change my tune...

Lock the door, then burn it down.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Retain attorney, letters, phone calls, depositions....

Only two people are coming out on the long end here....

Absent a simple small claims resolution or a cheap letter from an attorney, this can get REAL expensive fast....

Two days in court & a couple of letters & phone calls recently cost a friend of mine $24,000 bucks and it was a draw....


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

T-towngirl said:


> The contract was for $3300. The paint and tile was $1150.00. Total @ $4450. They have paid 1585.00.



Holy smokes....Take the $500 and get on with life...

For the money & aggravation & time you will spend, call it an education and move on.

It will cost more than they owe you to retain an attorney with no guarantee you will gey anything but a big legal bill...


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

When I was reading our law in Oklahoma, it said that work does not have to meet particular standards of the individual in order to warrant payment. If the work is up to a reasonable standard it is considered valid. Our paint job was not perfect but we could have made it better if given the chance. However, anyone walking in and looking at this kitchen would say it looks really good. From now on when presented w painting Oak cabinetry I will be much more mindful of the problems it presents and the customers expectations. Does this sound like any laws you all have? I'll see if I can find it and post it.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

griz said:


> Holy smokes....Take the $500 and get on with life...
> 
> For the money & aggravation & time you will spend, call it an education and move on.
> 
> It will cost more than they owe you to retain an attorney with no guarantee you will gey anything but a big legal bill...


It doesn't cost you much to go to small claims. Personally I'd just take the money and lein the balance...but I may not need the money as much as the op.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

T-towngirl said:


> When I was reading our law in Oklahoma, it said that work does not have to meet particular standards of the individual in order to warrant payment. If the work is up to a reasonable standard it is considered valid. Our paint job was not perfect but we could have made it better if given the chance. However, anyone walking in and looking at this kitchen would say it looks really good. From now on when presented w painting Oak cabinetry I will be much more mindful of the problems it presents and the customers expectations. Does this sound like any laws you all have? I'll see if I can find it and post it.


A "Reasonable standard" as determined by whom?


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

griz said:


> Retain attorney, letters, phone calls, depositions....
> 
> Only two people are coming out on the long end here....
> 
> ...


No, I'm not retaining an attorney. I have friends that are and give me advise. I just thought I could win in small claims on my own. Is this not doable?


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

T-towngirl said:


> No, I'm not retaining an attorney. I have friends that are and give me advise. I just thought I could win in small claims on my own. Is this not doable?


Oh yeah, but remember that your time has opportunity cost. Most cases like these settle at the pretrial mediation.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

griz said:


> A "Reasonable standard" as determined by whom?


I guess by the judge? I'm going to look this up again. I'll post it.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

File the lien, have attorney write the letter along with copy and call their bluff...

If what you have posted is accurate, including this being the first problem client, you have more at stake here, including your reputation.

If you don't win this, the larger company can use that as a battering ram locally...

If he is not bluffing, or if he really felt his case was strong with the other builder, why would he even bother offering the $500 when they weren't going to pay before?...


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

T-towngirl said:


> No, I'm not retaining an attorney. I have friends that are and give me advise. I just thought I could win in small claims on my own. Is this not doable?


Yes it is doable.

But as I said earlier the list of dirty laundry will be huge pointing out a number of unprofessional things you did.

Also that old guy with the reputation is going to be a tough hurdle.

They will also point out that as a professional you should have pointed out the drawbacks/negatives of trying to paint oak cabinets to be glossy smooth. Other details of your incompetence and lack of attention to detail will be presented.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I've been known to send out legal papers foe 185.00 just for phucking principle. There are something's worth fighting for. I think if she settles for the 500 she's played right into there hand.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> I've been known to send out legal papers foe 185.00 just for phucking principle. There are something's worth fighting for. I think if she settles for the 500 she's played right into there hand.


She played in to their hand when she took the job.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

This is really sticking in my craw....

If he is not bluffing, or if he really felt his case was strong with the other builder, why would he even bother offering the $500 when they weren't going to pay before?...


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

KAP said:


> This is really sticking in my craw....
> 
> If he is not bluffing, or if he really felt his case was strong with the other builder, why would he even bother offering the $500 when they weren't going to pay before?...


Because they can now point out the benevolence of their good faith effort to compensate her even while they point out all the discrepancies and lack of professionalism in the job.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

And she can point out her good faith effort to fix it, but deserves her first draw that she already worked for. She can also point out that she no longer is confident to work anymore without the first draw they agreed to. Simply put, because they didn't pay the first OWED draw, it is perfectly reasonable to believe they won't pay her at completion.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Are we going in circles?


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> Are we going in circles?


Ya, just imagine what court will be like....:whistling:laughing:


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

KAP said:


> This is really sticking in my craw....
> 
> If he is not bluffing, or if he really felt his case was strong with the other builder, why would he even bother offering the $500 when they weren't going to pay before?...


Right? What's up with that? I bet since the Big Co just did huge job for his mom, he was willing to take care of these small things for free cuz it's not much to do. Then he can try to offer me 500 to settle and he wins, wins, wins! What he paid wouldn't cover materials if he did it himself. You have to remember we provided thinset, plastic, caulk, floor paper, loads of tape...all the little crap that HO's take for granted when they DYI.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

griz said:


> Because they can now point out the benevolence of their good faith effort to compensate her even while they point out all the discrepancies and lack of professionalism in the job.


Just as her accepting the $500 would be bad for her, offering it was bad for them...

He's bluffing IMHO... one way to find out... file the lien, have her friends lawyer write a letter...

Even if it moves forward, I still don't think it makes it past pre-trial deposition...


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

I can't find that statute. I'm going to have to ask my lawyer friend again. I don't remember the exact wording.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

T-towngirl said:


> Right? What's up with that? *I bet since the Big Co just did huge job for his mom, *he was willing to take care of these small things for free cuz it's not much to do. Then he can try to offer me 500 to settle and he wins, wins, wins! What he paid wouldn't cover materials if he did it himself. You have to remember we provided thinset, plastic, caulk, floor paper, loads of tape...all the little crap that HO's take for granted when they DYI.


This alone may disqualify his testimony... and another "expert" will cost them money...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

You don't know for sure that "super contractor" even went over there. It's all made up to try to get you to go away. They even made an offer to help sweeten the deal.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

I believe the expert has to be court approved


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Californiadecks said:


> I believe the expert has to be court approved


Yes, and they are not cheap.

But expert witnesses in small claims?


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Is there pre trial mediation at small claims? I just thought you presented case to the judge and the judge decides on the spot. Like Judge Judy?


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Good point. Didn't consider that.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

T-towngirl said:


> Is there pre trial mediation at small claims? I just thought you presented case to the judge and the judge decides on the spot. Like Judge Judy?


In California there is no pre-trial conference.

It's the two parties in front of the judge.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> You don't know for sure that "super contractor" even went over there. It's all made up to try to get you to go away. They even made an offer to help sweeten the deal.


Good point, didn't consider that.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

T-towngirl said:


> Is there pre trial mediation at small claims? I just thought you presented case to the judge and the judge decides on the spot. Like Judge Judy?


I think at this point you go to court and learn what to do. It's a valuable learning experience. This way when we need small claims legal advice T-girl will be there for CT. :thumbsup: I know, record the event I would like to hear that one.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Californiadecks said:


> I think at this point you go to court and learn what to do. It's a valuable learning experience. This way when we need small claims legal advice T-girl will be there for CT. :thumbsup: I know, record the event I would like to hear that one.


Let's all chip-in for a transcript... :thumbsup:

Kick him in the nuts with a lien and letter from attorney immediately so he knows you are serious...


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

T-towngirl said:


> Good point, didn't consider that.


That's the way it is here too. I don't know about witnesses. I didn't let you guys in on this bc of relevance but my client who loves me ( I was having some work done at her house today) is the one who gave this jackass my name. She works at the same company w him. ( She feels really bad) Her husband is land and construction attorney for a country music legend. How ironic is that? He wants me to call his buddy thats a construction attny bc they work together and not to put her in the middle. But I didn't think attorneys even went to small claims. Should I?


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

KAP said:


> Let's all chip-in for a transcript... :thumbsup:
> 
> Kick him in the nuts with a lien and letter from attorney immediately so he knows you are serious...


Will do!


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

T-towngirl said:


> Will do!


I bet he's a real a$$- kicker... But I probably can't afford him unless her husband told him to do this for me cuz they feel bad.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

T-towngirl said:


> I bet he's a real a$$- kicker... But I probably can't afford him unless her husband told him to do this for me cuz they feel bad.


Tell him you will paint his cabinets for legal advise. :laughing:


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

:


KAP said:


> Let's all chip-in for a transcript... :thumbsup:
> 
> Kick him in the nuts with a lien and letter from attorney immediately so he knows you are serious...


:thumbup: I'll have the iPhone on record...:laughing:


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

T-towngirl said:


> That's the way it is here too. I don't know about witnesses. I didn't let you guys in on this bc of relevance but my client who loves me ( I was having some work done at her house today) is the one who gave this jackass my name. She works at the same company w him. ( She feels really bad) Her husband is land and construction attorney for Garth Brooks. How ironic is that? He wants me to call his buddy thats a construction attny bc they work together and not to put her in the middle. But I didn't think attorneys even went to small claims. Should I?


$$$$$

No attorneys in small claims out here.

Never seen an expert witness in small claims as experts are court ordered.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

I'll keep y'all posted. I'm going over to their house on Sat to show them carpet samples. They had a backup over thanksgiving and want me to do another bathroom and replace their stinky carpet( from the backup). I'll get info and let you know what the legal eagle says.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

:


T-towngirl said:


> :
> 
> :thumbup: I'll have the iPhone on record...:laughing:


Lol!!!!! :laughing:


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

I was laughing w you mike on the cabinet comment. Didn't mean to laugh at myself. Beer and fatigue. Sorry


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

griz said:


> $$$$$
> 
> No attorneys in small claims out here.
> 
> Never seen an expert witness in small claims as experts are court ordered.


Ill find everything out Saturday. But I think it's the same here.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

Most courthouses now require you to leave your phone in your car...


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

KAP said:


> Personally, I would take one door that they don't like, re-do it, and use that as the sign-off sample.


Good idea


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

If they want to play the constant "it's not good enough game" with you.

Tell them you will have a court appointed mediator settle this, because your work is within industry standards and just because they say it's not right doesn't make it so. 
Also be sure to tell them you will be getting the lien process going. 
You can look at them and say I see what your doing here.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

T-towngirl said:


> Can you explain this? Even if I say it's acceptable, they can argue its not. Because this is what happened when I first went there after she fired me and I would say one thing and she screamed at me.


Refer to post #279...


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

:thumbsup:


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm letting him sweat it out this weekend. I can tell he's really worried about going to court. I am super busy too... Don't you think since they basically fired me until last night I don't have to jump every time he changes his freakin mind? As I have been doing....


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

T-towngirl said:


> I'm letting him sweat it out this weekend. I can tell he's really worried about going to court. I am super busy too... Don't you think since they basically fired me until last night I don't have to jump every time he changes his freakin mind? As I have been doing....


Because of the delays in letting you resume work, he will have to be flexible to your schedule, but non-communication at this point "to make him sweat" is not a good idea IMHO... that could come back to bite you if this ends up in court...

Get it done and out of your hair...


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

I wanted to show you this pic bc this probably the best one to see the deepness of the grain. My painters should have filled this better, but honestly this is as bad as it gets. Look at upper door on the bottom. I can zoom on my iPad and see it.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

T-towngirl said:


> I'm letting him sweat it out this weekend. I can tell he's really worried about going to court. I am super busy too... Don't you think since they basically fired me until last night I don't have to jump every time he changes his freakin mind? As I have been doing....


After you have provided more detail how you intend to handle this:

1) Do not even respond to this dipwad at this point.

2) File lien papers.

3) File your small claims action papers.

4) If it's not too expensive have your attorney friend write Mr & Mrs Dipwad a latter explaining the trouble they are in and the potential consequences of their actions. Also have your attorney state what you are willing to do to resolve this matter (minor touch up work/realistic punch list items) and upon completion of the touch up work/punch list you expect a certified/cashiers check for ***x dollars.
Provide a few dates & times you will be available.

Do you have mediation in your state to resolve contractual issues?


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Maybe this is wrong one


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

No it's right bottom of cabinet on the right.


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## svronthmve (Aug 3, 2008)

griz said:


> After you have provided more detail how you intend to handle this:
> 
> 1) Do not even respond to this dipwad at this point.
> 
> ...


This is exactly how I would handle them. No more trying to placate them. They've shown their true side.

You need to get real serious NOW and put an end to their mental games.

No more t-town nice girl for them!


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Oh! I forgot to share this...I went to Prosource to pull samples for my client tomorrow and was telling my sales girl all this. She goes, OMG! That lady called up here insisting on getting the price of the tile. One of the other girls answered and Mrs J-a$$ started giving her a lot of grief for not giving her the info she wanted, so my girl got on the phone and set her straight. Can you believe the Gaul?!? She was trying to make sure I didn't make a dime off the tile when I saved her $4 sf and I'm the one who bought it anyway!!!!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

T-towngirl said:


> Oh! I forgot to share this...I went to Prosource to pull samples for my client tomorrow and was telling my sales girl all this. She goes, OMG! That lady called up here insisting on getting the price of the tile. One of the other girls answered and Mrs J-a$$ started giving her a lot of grief for not giving her the info she wanted, so my girl got on the phone and set her straight. Can you believe the Gaul?!? She was trying to make sure I didn't make a dime off the tile when I saved her $4 sf and I'm the one who bought it anyway!!!!



It just keeps getting better


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

svronthmve said:


> This is exactly how I would handle them. No more trying to placate them. They've shown their true side.
> 
> You need to get real serious NOW and put an end to their mental games.
> 
> No more t-town nice girl for them!


That's what my husband and son said...they couldn't stand listening to me being so nice to him. They were both grabbing for the phone:laughing:


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

T-towngirl said:


> View attachment 104601
> 
> 
> I wanted to show you this pic bc this probably the best one to see the deepness of the grain. My painters should have filled this better, but honestly this is as bad as it gets. Look at upper door on the bottom. I can zoom on my iPad and see it.


I looked at it and I could see why they would not be happy with that, but it is an easy fix... they are making this harder than it has to be and I think we know why... 

At this point, you have to hope for the best but plan for the worse (i.e. - lien/court) so everything you do going forward should be documented and always showing a willingness to fix the problem areas. This is not only the case, but also for the judges consumption which is also why I would not delay communications... just gives him ammo...

You should have an elevation drawing and or pics of the doors, and mark the area's they want addressed, and have them sign-off on it. Take the worst offending door you just posted, fix-it and use it as the sample for what they can expect the other areas to look like upon completion. Have them sign and date everything...

I know at this point, it feels like such a burden, but think of it as training for a future problem customer, and keep your eye on the ball (i.e. - money)...

Best of luck.. 8^)


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

T-towngirl said:


> That's what my husband and son said...they couldn't stand listening to me being so nice to him. They were both grabbing for the phone:laughing:


You showed restraint in the face of unreasonable emotion... sign of a leader... you don't know if he was setting you up by taping you so your err'ing on the side of caution was smart... :thumbsup:

'Nite...


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

KAP said:


> You showed restraint in the face of unreasonable emotion... sign of a leader... you don't know if he was setting you up by taping you so your err'ing on the side of caution was smart... :thumbsup:


This another good point, I wouldn't put it past them to tape your phone call. Always assume they are. Especially with the phones apps of today.


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Gosh Kapp, you are so dang level-headed...do you ever lose your cool?
:notworthy


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Californiadecks said:


> This another good point, I wouldn't put it past them to tape your phone call. Always assume they are. Especially with the phones apps of today.


Oh yes!!! I really felt they were! He kept trying to get me to agree w everything and I would just politely say " I don't agree Mr J-a$$".


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## T-towngirl (Dec 1, 2013)

Night guys. I'm going to TRY and sleep tonight...I'll update tomorrow after speaking w Mr legal eagle .


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