# Open First Floor



## Frenchie (Jan 6, 2005)

Hi Y'all , I'm new to this so any help is greatly appreciated. Don't mind my
spelling. I am planning to build a Barn Style Home and hope someone can give
me some insite on it. I used to frame custom and pre-fab homes years ago and I plan on doing most of it myself. The question is how to get a totally open 36' X 60' bottom floor without a bunch of beams and columns. This house will be completely framed in wood and I plan on doing the outside walls with 2" x 6" lumber. The first floor is going to be my playroom w/pool table, bar, bigscreen TV , and furniture. The secound floor will be the Kitchen, Livingroom, Bedrooms and Bath. There will be a loft on the back half above the secound floor mesuring 36' W X 30' L. Bedrooms and Bathroom will be tucked under the loft, leaving the Livingroom and Dinning/Kitchen area open up to the Barn Style Roof Trusses. Secound floor and Loft are set as to support, what I need help with is how to support all that above the First Floor without beams and columns. Would engineered floor trusses running across the 36' at 16" O.C. do the job or do I need something else ??? Thnx, Frenchie.


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## Glasshousebltr (Feb 9, 2004)

The architectural term for barn style is 'gambrel' 

Because of the multiple ridges on a gambrel you also have multiple load points on the roof. Better think about microlams or steel.

Give us more info, a drawing or something, a small floor plan would be most helpful.

Bob


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Flying buttresses.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

36' is quite a stretch. I'm thinking that you're going to lose about 24" with engineered trusses. I can run some numbers for you but whatever you do I think that you are going to run into a variety of problems, flex being #1.
You could get really original and suspend the floor from the roof trusses thus transferring the load to the exterior walls. This would require some engineering and have the guys in the building dept. scratching their heads but is a solution.


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## TimWieneke (Nov 1, 2004)

Are you talking only about exposed beams and columns? What if you had beams and columns buried in the framing? 

I'm not an engineer but if you could bury them in the framing maybe someone could engineer you a plan with a couple serious (aka expensive) steel beams spanning the 36', then some joists perpendicular to these beams to create 18' spans in which you could put the rest of the joists.... I know they make steel floor joists (much like steel studs), which may hold your answer. However I have no engineering information, I've never seen anything like this and don't even know if it's architecturally feasible - I'm just saying it may be. 

Tim


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

This is not that hard but you will need to take this to an engineering firm so they can calculate your load for you. I do this all the time taking old homes and tearing off the roofs so as to add a 2nd story. You will need to use some steel and microlams. The steel is cheaper. At least here in N.C.

We will split the 30 ft width in half with a "W" beam sized accordingly. This 36 ft. "W" beam will need to have holes torched usually every 24 inches staggard so you can bolt joists to both sides. Usually 5/8" hole.

Now you will want to split the 36 ft long sections into three 12 ft sections. This can be done with microlams. It will either take two or three depending on load. Your engineer can calculate. If it takes three then you will need twelve microlams. What you have done is divided the 36 X 30 into six sections of 12 X 15. Then the typical floor framing can be 16" on center. This will allow you to have 100% open space, as the load is transfered to the outside walls and down to the foundation.

*REMEMBER:* You still have to worry about the roof as well. So you will need some type of walls on the second floor to transfer roof load down. OR you could just do the samething on the second floor ceiling and then the whole second floor could be open as well.

The steel will be the cheapest thing to buy, at least here in N.C. as it is compared to microlams and engineered lumber. I can get a beam for around $200 depending on length, where three microlams will run over $300 to carry the same load.

I have done this many times in large remodels and it is not that hard. It gives you more room to have options with openess and large spaces. Doing a quick calculation, if you did this both on the floor and mirrored it on the ceiling so as to maximize your openess on both floors, you are talking an estimated $4,000 to $5,000 more in lumber and steel and engineering design. 

Let me know if it makes sense.

*DO NOT* do these calculations yourself. Pay several $100 to have an engineer claculate and stamp your drawings.

Sounds like a fun project.  *KEEP READING TO NEWER POSTS THIS IS ONLY FOR A 30 X 36 OPEN AREA. OOPS!*  

Mark


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## TimWieneke (Nov 1, 2004)

*span*

Mark,
This sounds really cool. I had a question though.

"We will split the 36 ft width in half with a "W" beam sized accordingly. This 36 ft. "W" beam will need to have holes torched usually every 24 inches staggard so you can bolt joists to both sides. Usually 5/8" hole."

What supports the T joint where the beam that splits the 36' width meets the middle beam that splits the 60' span into two 30' spans? Wouldn't you need a column to support this joint or do they make something that will support this without a column? 

Tim


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Split the 30 ft. run in half with 36 ft. beam then split the 36 ft. run into three 12 ft. sections. Everything transferred to outside walls.

This calculation was for only a 30 X 36 open area. I went back and *reread* his question and now realize he wants a 60 ft x 36 area. *So disreagard that.*.  

Now to do a 36 X 60 you will need *THREE * 36 ft "W" beams placed at 15'-30' and 45'. You will need microlams to split the 36 ft. span at 12' and 24'. If the engineer says you need two microlams per section that will give you a total of 16 microlams. If he says three you will need 24 total.

This will allow you to span the first floor open. Total estimated costs for beams and lams with engineering is $3,500 - $5,000. If you want to carry the roof load and do the same on the second floor just double that cost. So to open a 36 X 60 two story structure on both floors would run an extra $7-10,000 above regular framing costs.

Sorry about that missed 30 extra feet. Glad that contract wasn't signed. I would have ate an extra $5,000 material cost.  

Everyhting else stays the same. I.E. Get an engineer to calculate and stamp.

This is nothing more than a commercial application. :Thumbs:


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## Frenchie (Jan 6, 2005)

*Sounds Good, But it's all Greek to Me*



pondman said:


> Split the 30 ft. run in half with 36 ft. beam then split the 36 ft. run into three 12 ft. sections. Everything transferred to outside walls.
> 
> This calculation was for only a 30 X 36 open area. I went back and *reread* his question and now realize he wants a 60 ft x 36 area. *So disreagard that.*.
> 
> ...


 Ok, the first floor is the only concern for the secound floor is already taken care of by the plans with roof trusses and a 30 ' x 36 ' loft on the back half of the house. I am simply adding a floor under a preset plan. That's why I am trying to get total open first floor because the plans I am purchasing do not include such or any verticle additions. When you use the terms in your reply like W beam and microlams - What are they and how can I see what they look like and how they work like you mentioned ??? If you don't mind you can send me something like a drawing VIA E-mail at [email protected] . I sure would appreciate it. Thnx, Frenchie.


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Frenchie,

In the building industry; you just can't add a floor under existing plans as you state:

"I'm simply adding a floor under a present plan."

You have to transfer all your point loads to the foundation. I need to know how the second floor is laid out. It sounds to me you have taken a ranch plan that is trussed and want to add a floor. I will be glad to send you a scetch of the layout I was talking about.

You may be purchasing plans that this may not work with. What you are trying to do is custom engineering. Very critical in its design. Which state are you building this in?

Can you provide me a small scetch of your plan with deminisions. Just draft it on paper and scan into the computer and send it as an attacment.


Mark


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## PipeGuy (Oct 8, 2004)

Frenchie said:


> When you use the terms in your reply like W beam and microlams - What are they and how can I see what they look like











W beam characteristics

The link above has some info that details the difference between type 'S' and type 'W' I-beam material. 









Microllam products 

Microllam is Weyerhausers' trademark name for its line of engineered, structural wood products. Engineered products are often used in lieu of standard or built-up nominal lumber for a variety of reasons. The products include joists, trusses, beams and other items that are manufactured and marketed by various companies. Microllam beams are often referred to generically as "lam" beams.


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## Frenchie (Jan 6, 2005)

*The Website*



pondman said:


> Frenchie,
> 
> In the building industry; you just can't add a floor under existing plans as you state:
> 
> ...


 Ok, the best way to show you what we want to build is to send you to the website that we are getting the plans from. Go to www.barnplans.com and look at the Barnhouse section. They offer plans for Barns and Barnhomes in different sizes. Check out the Featured Homes section and you will see exactly what I would like to do. Insted of putting the house on a concrete basement in the ground, I want to put it on a framed 1st floor with a slab at ground level. #1 we pour a slab 36' W X 60' L. then we frame the outside walls and then put the 2nd floor on top of that, which would in reallity be the 1st floor if it were on a slab itself or a full basement. I just want that " Basement " to be at ground level and framed of wood and wide open with no columns or jacks. See where I'm going with this ?? I guess I need to ask the folks we are bying the plans from if it's possible to do this, but I think it can be done with the proper materials and engineering. Thnx, Frenchie.


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Lots of engineering. You are not building a house of cards here.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

I'm an engineer and it can be done, the question is 'is it worth it to you?'.
A few stratigically placed center posts would relieve much of the engineering stress. If you wish to complete this as stated, I would suggest consulting a local engineer.


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Sorry can't find the layout or the featured home section on that Link. I must be looking in wrong place?? Tell me how to click it on exactly.


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## Frenchie (Jan 6, 2005)

*The Website*



pondman said:


> Sorry can't find the layout or the featured home section on that Link. I must be looking in wrong place?? Tell me how to click it on exactly.


 Ok, on the Home Page go down to Showcase and look through the many homes that have been built using these plans. I just E-mailed the contact guy there and asked them for info about doing this. I'll let Y'all know what they tell me. L8tr , Frenchie.


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## pondman (Dec 29, 2004)

Frenchie,

I thought you had a particular plan that already had a layout?????? You know the one with a 30 x 36 loft????


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## 747 (Jan 21, 2005)

Did you think about using insulspan.....www.insulspan.com???


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