# Kitchen remodeling questions



## RookiePlumber (Mar 1, 2017)

I am planning my kitchen renovation and wanted to get some input from guys who’ve done it.

The kitchen sits in an open room along with a living room and dining room. I’d like to change the layout to create more usable space outside the kitchen. (Below see existing layout and new layout). The new layout I came up with makes more use of the wall opposite the windows (lots of dead space there now). It also gives me 3 feet more for a dining table.

I am going to replace the tiled kitchen with the same wood that’s in the rest of the living space. 4” red oak (I think) stained Jacobean brown. I think a continuous floor medium gives the room a larger look.

I am still playing with the idea of swapping the cooktop location (currently drawn on the island in both the existing and new layouts) with the kitchen sink. I know this will involve some tricky kitchen island plumbing and rerouting of the gas and copper lines.

What are the pros & cons of having the cooktop on the island vs. on the wall?

Some I can think of:
* No drop down recirculating exhaust hood. The exhaust hood would be under a cabinet. Unfortunately I am forced to use a ductless recirculating exhaust in either scenario - there is no flume system that can carry cooking exhaust in my building.
* People don’t see your dirty cooktop. They see my dirty dishes.

Any thoughts or input would be appreciated!!!

Thanks

























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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

What is more important to you... More Kitchen/storage or more space? The answer to that will define design going forward...


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Move the island towards the 9' number in the second drawing, align it with the end cabinet, create an L of cabinets on the wall to the left of the island, end them with the dining room side of the island. 

Tom


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## RookiePlumber (Mar 1, 2017)

KAP, yeah I didn’t really think about the storage. Duh.

Tom, you’re suggesting a U-shaped kitchen? I liked the idea of being able to enter on both sides. I agree I should extend the island to the 9’. I might even make that whole back wall longer. Its really dead space.

I’ll play around with some new layouts.

Thanks for the input. 




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## rblakes1 (Jan 8, 2015)

RookiePlumber said:


> KAP, yeah I didn’t really think about the storage. Duh.
> 
> Tom, you’re suggesting a U-shaped kitchen? I liked the idea of being able to enter on both sides. I agree I should extend the island to the 9’. I might even make that whole back wall longer. Its really dead space.
> 
> ...


I don't think he's suggesting a U shape, you would have space to walk between the cabinets and the islands of you pushed the island over 3' or so. 

I would go with the L layout and island myself. No one ever complains about more counter space and storage

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## rblakes1 (Jan 8, 2015)

You could also then leave the sink and cooktop against the walls and put a small prep sink in the island if you wanted to

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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

You can ado doing something like this also it will give you a nice workable kitchen with plenty of room for everything else.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

RookiePlumber said:


> *KAP, yeah I didn’t really think about the storage. Duh.
> *
> Tom, you’re suggesting a U-shaped kitchen? I liked the idea of being able to enter on both sides. I agree I should extend the island to the 9’. I might even make that whole back wall longer. Its really dead space.
> 
> ...


So the answer to more Kitchen/storage or more space is?...


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## RookiePlumber (Mar 1, 2017)

KAP; said:


> So the answer to more Kitchen/storage or more space is?...




Yup I’m gonna need more storage than what I initially drew.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

greg24k said:


> You can ado doing something like this also it will give you a nice workable kitchen with plenty of room for everything else.


I'd reverse the island seating so you can view the living/dining room. 

Tom


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

tjbnwi said:


> I'd reverse the island seating so you can view the living/dining room.


I wouldn't; that would encroach heavily on the work triangle. And unless you're in the habit of hosting large gatherings, you'd seldom have both areas occupied at the same time.


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## kirkdc (Feb 16, 2017)

for me, too often designs look great on paper..then ya go at it and it looks like chit.

I like to mock things up, either by taping off the floors as to where things will be... and most often I go even futher and build mock up cabinets, etc out of scrap wood and position them into place, or move them around as need be. It gives me and the HO a much clearer picture of what it's going to feel like.... and look like.


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## rblakes1 (Jan 8, 2015)

greg24k said:


> You can ado doing something like this also it will give you a nice workable kitchen with plenty of room for everything else.


Exactly what I was thinking. The only thing I'd play around with is rotating the island 90 to parallel the sink wall, then you could overhang the top for an additional seat at the end. Maybe even sneak a bookcase on the end by the oven for cookbook storage

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## RookiePlumber (Mar 1, 2017)

greg24k; said:


> You can ado doing something like this also it will give you a nice workable kitchen with plenty of room for everything else.



Greg did you do that mock-up in autocad? The designer i spoke to used autocad to create the layouts I originally posted. 

I’m playing around with 2020 design (trial version). Insane what software can do now.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> I wouldn't; that would encroach heavily on the work triangle. And unless you're in the habit of hosting large gatherings, you'd seldom have both areas occupied at the same time.



Most people watch TV now while eating, reversing the island allows line of sight to the living/family room. 

Never got the concept of the work triangle. When I cook or bake all of the ingredients are laid out and pre measured prior. No need to walk from spot to spot when prepping a meal.

Tom


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

tjbnwi said:


> Most people watch TV now while eating, reversing the island allows line of sight to the living/family room.
> 
> Never got the concept of the work triangle. When I cook or bake all of the ingredients are laid out and pre measured prior. No need to walk from spot to spot when prepping a meal.
> 
> Tom


You may have a point about TV. In our house and our kids' houses, it's off during dinner.

My wife gets everything out, does her creative explosion, and collapses in exhaustion while the cooking takes place--with stuff sitting all over the counters and sink.

I clean as I prep, so when the cooking starts there's practically nothing left to clean or put away. Different strokes.


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

If you want to turn the island around and face the kitchen window, you can do that also.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> You may have a point about TV. In our house and our kids' houses, it's off during dinner.
> 
> My wife gets everything out, does her creative explosion, and collapses in exhaustion while the cooking takes place--with stuff sitting all over the counters and sink.
> 
> I clean as I prep, so when the cooking starts there's practically nothing left to clean or put away. Different strokes.


We don't do the TV thing, I know most people do including our adult children. Sign of the times.

I do not allow my wife in the kitchen when any serious prep and cooking is happening, a skill she never acquired is food prep. 

I cook the way you do, keep up with it and life if good. 

Tom


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## B.Johnson (Sep 17, 2016)

RookiePlumber said:


> Greg did you do that mock-up in autocad? The designer i spoke to used autocad to create the layouts I originally posted.
> 
> I’m playing around with 2020 design (trial version). Insane what software can do now.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what software he used, but I recommend the Home Designer Series By Chief Architect. There is a link in my signature that you should check out.


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## Xtrememtnbiker (Jun 9, 2013)

We haven't had the TV on during a meal since probably the first year of marriage (6 years ago) We eat as a family around the table and I can't see that changing.


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## Kumpel (Aug 30, 2017)

I am not a fan of wood in kitchens /bathrooms. Looks nice though


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> You may have a point about TV. In our house and our kids' houses, it's off during dinner.
> 
> My wife gets everything out, does her creative explosion, and collapses in exhaustion while the cooking takes place--with stuff sitting all over the counters and sink.
> 
> I clean as I prep, so when the cooking starts there's practically nothing left to clean or put away. Different strokes.


I can relate to your wife. :laughing:


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## RookiePlumber (Mar 1, 2017)

I played around with some of your ideas and drew stuff up in 2020 Design (still figuring the software out so excuse the sloppy layouts). I will install wall cabinets to the ceiling in all layouts. The microwave and electrical oven will be installed in the wall cabinetry. The cooktop will be gas. I’m going to extend the countertop 12” toward the windows to create stool seating in both layouts.

L-shaped Kitchen with Island
I’ve laid out Tom’s idea of the L-shaped kitchen plus an island. Im going to keep all the cooktop and sink on the walls. I really like this layout because:

1. No messy cooktop or dirty dishes on the island
2. No need to move sink plumbing
3. Two entrances to the kitchen

Only downsides are the cook can’t face the living space. Not sure if that’s a big deal. I’m renting the condo out so I don’t really know how real “people" operate. Also the 12” cabinet to the left of the sink seems stubby and abruptly ended. Anyway to fix that?

Peninsula with Cooktop
The pros to this layout are:
1. Cook can face the living space
2. More usable counter space near the sink and the cooktop.
3. Defined ending of kitchen.

Comments / criticism are welcome and greatly appreciated.

Thanks for all the help.




















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## republicwest (Apr 20, 2020)

If You want more counter and storage space, then adding a center island may be worth the cost. But an island can limit the number of people working in the kitchen, reduce traffic flow to one-way with no passing, and make for cramped quarters. Try out an island before committing to one. Slap together a full-scale model out of cardboard or plywood and live with it for a few days. Make sure you can open your stove and refrigerator doors. No space for an island? Consider a kitchen trolley instead.


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## RookiePlumber (Mar 1, 2017)

Finished product.


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## rblakes1 (Jan 8, 2015)

Looks good! 

-Rich


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## RookiePlumber (Mar 1, 2017)

rblakes1; said:


> Looks good!
> 
> -Rich




I made a lot of mistakes but it worked out. Lessons learned.

Thx


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

Nice job :thumbsup: but IMO having the same set up on the opposite wall would be much better. It is always good to have a sink in front of the window, this way a customer is not staring at the blank wall and you get natural light over your working space instead of having a shadow in front of you.


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## KAP (Feb 19, 2011)

greg24k said:


> Nice job :thumbsup: but IMO having the same set up on the opposite wall would be much better. It is always good to have a sink in front of the window, this way a customer is not staring at the blank wall and you get natural light over your working space instead of having a shadow in front of you.


Agreed, always good to have a sink in front of a window, but from what I can see, there's no window on either wall... 

One of the ways to overcome the issue you raise regarding shadows is with a light bar behind a valance above the sink (you don't want a cabinet right in front of you so it's usually elevated in that scenario)... you can also counteract that with the ceiling lighting placement... he could have gotten more storage and better use of the triangle and more user accesibility by putting the L in place, but that said, it still looks nice and I'm sure the customer is happy...


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## greg24k (May 19, 2007)

KAP said:


> Agreed, always good to have a sink in front of a window, but from what I can see, there's no window on either wall...
> 
> One of the ways to overcome the issue you raise regarding shadows is with a light bar behind a valance above the sink (you don't want a cabinet right in front of you so it's usually elevated in that scenario)... you can also counteract that with the ceiling lighting placement... he could have gotten more storage and better use of the triangle and more user accesibility by putting the L in place, but that said, it still looks nice and I'm sure the customer is happy...


I thought there was a window on the opposite wall...


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## RookiePlumber (Mar 1, 2017)

Here’s what the place looked like before. Not a great picture. But zoom in. 

I like the idea of an elevated wall cabinet over the sink. But doesn’t the offset bw the counter 25 1/4” deep and the wall cabinet 12” deep create enough space?

Does the elevated cabinet mess up the line flow? If no window what would you put there?


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