# a crown molding question



## izote61 (Jul 21, 2005)

iam going to do 419 linear feet in my house , what is the right miter saw for me
do i i have to use a coping saw? or there is a miter saw that do all this, please advise me, can i use 2x2 to have something to nail my crown apart from my studs? always thank you very much for any help. :Thumbs:


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

This topic hasn't come up in a while so here goes.
What you are going to find is that guys (like me) who were taught to miter prefer it. Others were taught to cope and prefer that method. There is no right or wrong, just different methods of accomplishing the same thing.

I notice that today most trim carpenters do not use cleats behind the crown, I do. I rip the cleat to the appropriate angle and fasten it to the studs then fasten the moulding to the cleat. IMHO this is more secure, there are fewer holes to fill and, in most cases, the nail holes are out in the smoother sections where they are easier to finish.

Don't go away, you're going to hear a lot more on this one.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

Teetorbilt said:


> I notice that today most trim carpenters do not use cleats behind the crown, I do. I rip the cleat to the appropriate angle and fasten it to the studs then fasten the moulding to the cleat. IMHO this is more secure, *there are fewer holes to fill and, in most cases, the nail holes are out in the smoother sections where they are easier to finish.*


Guys like me dig guys like you. :Thumbs:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Mitering is great for wall's that are almost a perfect 90 degree. Coping is easier when corners are off 5 degree's or more/less from 90. Cleats are a good idea. 
I use a ryobi miter but that is bottom of the line and doesn't have a high back fence. With a mod it can. But what ever saw you use buy a finish 40 tooth blade.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

izote61 said:


> iam going to do 419 linear feet in my house , what is the right miter saw for me
> do i i have to use a coping saw? or there is a miter saw that do all this, please advise me, can i use 2x2 to have something to nail my crown apart from my studs? always thank you very much for any help. :Thumbs:


What somebody needs and what they want are usually 2 different things.

I use a compound miter saw and a hand coping saw. I have never used any backing, however I have never put up anything extra large or made from multiple layers of crown. For standard crown I have had no problems with using a stud finder and a pencil, marking the studs lightly on the wall so my nails go into studs. I have never chaulked a line since there are only 2 places that it really matters where the crown ends up, the 2 ends so they line up with the rest, as long as the rest of the crown looks good to the eye it looks good to the eye! I just measure where the crown will come down to on the wall and put 2 pencil marks in the corner so I can line up each piece of crown coming out of the corner. Alex Plus painters caulk and a sponge, and some spackle for the nail holes when I'm done.


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## ProWallGuy (Oct 17, 2003)

> Alex Plus painters caulk and a sponge, and some spackle for the nail holes when I'm done.


A little caulk, and a little paint,
Makes a carpenter what he ain't! :Thumbs:


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

Get a 12" CMS so that you can cut most crown "in position". 

Also, coping is a lot less forgiving in the corners and, although it's an art, it's not THAT hard to do....practice, practice, practice..

Also, get a Collins Coping Foot (www.collinstool.com). Coping by hand is sooooo slooooow. Right Mike?


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## AAPaint (Apr 18, 2005)

That Alex plus (DAP) is crap caulk if you ask me, but nobody asked, so I'll leave it alone, lol! Sorry, I just don't like that runny stuff. I need something with some real body to it that lasts longer than the trim, so I use SW 1100A 55 year caulk. I don't doubt it does ok, I've had to use it a couple times...hence the reason I don't like it, heh!


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

Alex, hehe. Amature crap. $ 1.49 a tube at the box store. Get real.


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## mdshunk (Mar 13, 2005)

For Pete's sake, you're beating up poor Mike because he uses cheap caulk. We all have our faults. If he's getting good results with it, who's smarter than who here?

(I got your back Mike :Thumbs: )


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Hey, not a problem guys, I don't know everything and I'm always open to finding something better, if you haven't learned at least that about me, get your heads out of your asses! 

MD - checks in the mail buddy!

Anyways, I am not happy with Alex Plus, the only complaint I have with it is sometimes as it cures it shrinks and can pinhole and stuff, but I have also found that seems to have a lot to do with how much water is on the sponge when you wipe it.

I have the same issues with C-cure color matched caulks for tile, and C-cure ain't cheap, nor crap no matter what anybody says, I figured part of the problem has got to be the lack of humidity out here.

SW 1100A 55 year caulk - I take it is Sherwin Williams brand? What it cost? Is this the stuff everybody recommends?


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

I use the Alex Plus too because it's cheaper than most caulks and wipes down smoothly. I've never had issues with shrinking though.

The regular Alex sucks completely for some reason.

I've also tried MD painter's caulk and it sucks. Also, used the Ben Moore caulk and wasn't nuts about it either.

Caulk is the last thing I worry about on a project. It all works more or less and unless it's fending off water in a shower area or outside, I just use what's at my disposal. There are way too many other issues to worry about!


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

mdshunk said:


> For Pete's sake, you're beating up poor Mike because he uses cheap caulk. We all have our faults. If he's getting good results with it, who's smarter than who here?
> 
> (I got your back Mike :Thumbs: )


But then again, - - 'good results' are experienced by the customer, through 'time', - - and cheap caulk won't pass that test.

A few more dollars per tube is cheap insurance for one's reputation. :Thumbs:


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## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

Ive found daps dynaflex 230 to be the best all around caulk for interior and exterior woodwork and trim,but for tubs, backspashes and similar applications i use a non-silicone adhesive caulk. I also use a 60 to 80 tooth blade in my miter saw,quality brand such as freud will set you back 50 to 90 dollars ,but these blades get resharpened many times,unlike my 71/4 blades which get tossed or used for demo cutting.


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## specwood (Sep 5, 2005)

Cope it if you are a carpenter. 

This method hides imperfections in the wall, but it also prevents an inside miter from opening when the wood changes shape during humidity changes. This will be more prevalent in taller molding profiles.

A coping saw is an easy tool to learn how to use. If you are afraid of a little coping saw, then you should not own a power saw.

Coping can be done with a good variable speed jigsaw too. I have seen a rig that attaches to the molding to provide a bed for the jig saw to ride on. I have not tried this, but have used a jigsaw on larger moldings.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

Coping was probably more important in the days of hand nailing trim. Driving a nail with a hammer naturally pushed the inside corners open. Trim has come a long way with guns, modern saws and other tools. I say mitre the inside corners if you can get them to look good. Just make it perfect and then leave it alone. RT.


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## bergenbldr (Apr 23, 2005)

Oldtimers coping every corner is more myth than reality ive seldom seen it done,a lot of these guys would make a custom miter box for each molding to be cut. This reminds of the myth of oldtimers actually installing diagonal braceing,ive seen a lot of old home framing where the only bracing was the clapboards.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Rob 53 said:


> Coping was probably more important in the days of hand nailing trim. Driving a nail with a hammer naturally pushed the inside corners open. Trim has come a long way with guns, modern saws and other tools. I say mitre the inside corners if you can get them to look good. Just make it perfect and then leave it alone. RT.


Any carpenter worth his salt, - - now or then, - - knows not to nail too close to corners, - - with or without a nail gun.

Coping makes a better, longer-lasting corner simply because it divides the unavoidable 'shrinkage' factor exactly in half, - - and even then, - - leaves a 'visual' gap from only one angle, - - instead of both.

Miters will look fine today.

Coping will look fine tomorrow.

You choose.


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## carpenter 1st (Sep 2, 2005)

anyone ever heard of a bevel square??? they work great for those pesky out of square corners. some trim profiles are too much of a PITA for a coping saw-even with a contour gauge.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

carpenter1st said:


> anyone ever heard of a bevel square??? they work great for those pesky out of square corners. some trim profiles are too much of a PITA for a coping saw-even with a contour gauge.


A contour-guage??, - - umm, - - how long have you been a carpenter??

Maybe it's me, but why would you use a contour-guage??

I've never run into a trim profile that couldn't be coped, - - just follow the old line wherever it goes.


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## specwood (Sep 5, 2005)

Guess I'm an "old timer". Born 1970. 

I don't feel old!

Maybe I'm a myth...


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

specwood said:


> Guess I'm an "old timer". Born 1970.
> 
> I don't feel old!
> 
> Maybe I'm a myth...


'Coping' all your corners may not qualify you as an 'old-timer', - - but it DOES qualify you as an 'expert'!! :Thumbs:


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## carpenter 1st (Sep 2, 2005)

alot of people use contour gauges when coping. one push and you have a profile to trace . it's a little easier on very detailed trim. ask around - really it's true. just a different way to do it.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

carpenter1st said:


> alot of people use contour gauges when coping. one push and you have a profile to trace . it's a little easier on very detailed trim. ask around - really it's true. just a different way to do it.


But why would anyone use so primitive and inaccurate of a method??, - - when all one has to do is cut the miter first, - - and then cope the 'perfect' contour that it has already 'drawn out' for you??

Though a contour guage has it's uses, - - I just can't see this being one of them, - - but hey, - - like I say, - - maybe it's just me, - - though I'm very experienced, - - I'm self-taught and do have my own (and sometimes my 'only') way of doing things.


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## carpenter 1st (Sep 2, 2005)

:cheesygri believe me- there are some people who don't know you can do it that way. i was taught to do it your way-and do if i don't happen to have a contour gauge on hand. that is, when i even use a coping saw.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

bergenbldr said:


> Oldtimers coping every corner is more myth than reality ive seldom seen it done,a lot of these guys would make a custom miter box for each molding to be cut. This reminds of the myth of oldtimers actually installing diagonal braceing,ive seen a lot of old home framing where the only bracing was the clapboards.


Well I've coped every corner and installed lots diagonal bracing a couple of different ways. Even did diagonal bracing in NJ one time, (5/4). I sent mail through the post office, typed on a typewriter, paid 33 cents for a gallon of gasoline. Gotta try different ways but do what works best for you and the times you are in.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Tom R said:


> Miters will look fine today.
> 
> Coping will look fine tomorrow.
> 
> You choose.




Words to live by!! :Thumbs: I'll go for tomorrow. :cheesygri


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## adamsb (Aug 25, 2005)

Funny I was talking to a very skilled carpenter today and he said use a miter saw and cut it upside down and backwards. He explained how he did crown and it made a lot of sense. He puts a block on the saw and marks a line on the top and the bottom and that tells him how to put it on the saw, then when he hangs it he uses the same block and marks a few lines to show exactly where to line up the crown.


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## K2 (Jul 8, 2005)

You would still need to mitre the crown before you could cope it. Upside down is about the only way you can hold a piece of crown in a mitre box. I don't know what he means by backwards. Coping is pretty easy to show someone but hard to describe in words. It is actually a pretty slick technique when it is done correctly. RT. I know I'm just saying some of the things that have already been said but I need the typing practice.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

adams said:


> Funny I was talking to a very skilled carpenter today and he said use a miter saw and cut it upside down and backwards. He explained how he did crown and it made a lot of sense. He puts a block on the saw and marks a line on the top and the bottom and that tells him how to put it on the saw, then when he hangs it he uses the same block and marks a few lines to show exactly where to line up the crown.



Upside down & backwards is the main way I do it too. If I run into some really out of square rooms I will also cope.


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## nywoodwizard (Sep 10, 2005)

*thats the right way*



Teetorbilt said:


> This topic hasn't come up in a while so here goes.
> What you are going to find is that guys (like me) who were taught to miter prefer it. Others were taught to cope and prefer that method. There is no right or wrong, just different methods of accomplishing the same thing.
> 
> I notice that today most trim carpenters do not use cleats behind the crown, I do. I rip the cleat to the appropriate angle and fasten it to the studs then fasten the moulding to the cleat. IMHO this is more secure, there are fewer holes to fill and, in most cases, the nail holes are out in the smoother sections where they are easier to finish.
> ...


I also apply a cleat to the ceiling, its much more secure and it really don't :Thumbs: take that long to do of course its only needed on two sides (in a square room) i like to know that after caulk and paint its going to stay tighter than a bulls a--


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## rangersteve (Jul 3, 2005)

I've been trimming for almost 20 years now and I must be "old school" also. I too was taught to cope anything that can be coped. I can't even remember how many times I've had other carpenters walk onto jobs I'd be working on and give me a hairy eye ball when they saw me coping 7 1/4" crown. Always asking me how I can do that. I just keep telling eveyone that ALL my trim is installed like it will be stained, NO exceptions. Needless to say, I work alone because I can't find anyone that can or will, work with me. If they can work to my standard, they usually have their own company. You would think working in all these multi-million dollar houses around Chicago you would run into quite a few excellent trimmers, the kind that don't have a caulk gun hanging off their pouches. Sometimes I wish I wasn't so obsessive compulsive.


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## King of Crown (Oct 12, 2005)

I know this is real late, and probably wont get responded too, but where i stand, is using a mitre saw is the only way to do the inside corners. In most of the cases that i have seen, the reason the corner is out of 90 degrees isnt because the wall was framed wrong, its because the studs are warped, or the dry compound was too thick in the corner after they blasted it in. the reason, I say this is because once you get the crown in there, and if it is mitred, and your eyes want to follow the lines of the crown, you will notice the bending of the crown, even if the joint is tight as a ducks butt. if you are able to finish the complete 90 degrees, shim it so you get a perfect joint, and caulk the space, or even shim out the rest, you will end up with a much nicer looking job. and then you need a good painter, who wont get mad at you for shimming out the trim, and can make it looke like there is no gap from the wall or ceiling. oh yeah that is another thing. Coping has no defense against ceilings that are out of 90.


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## King of Crown (Oct 12, 2005)

*Corrections to my last post*



King of Crown said:


> I know this is real late, and probably wont get responded too, but where i stand, is using a mitre saw is the only way to do the inside corners. In most of the cases that i have seen, the reason the corner is out of 90 degrees isnt because the wall was framed wrong, its because the studs are warped, or the dry compound was too thick in the corner after they blasted it in. the reason, I say this is because once you get the crown in there, and if it is coped, your eyes want to follow the lines of the crown, you will notice the bending of the crown, even if the joint is tight as a ducks butt. if you are able to finish the complete 90 degrees, using a mitre cut, shim it so you get a perfect joint, and caulk the space, or even shim out the rest, you will end up with a much nicer looking job. and then you need a good painter, who wont get mad at you for shimming out the trim, and can make it look like there is no gap from the wall or ceiling. oh yeah that is another thing. Coping has no defense against ceilings that are out of 90. Also, if you are working with a hardwood, it wont bend to fit into the corner, and you end up with a space that needs shimmed anyway.
> To recap:
> walls straight. Studs and trusses out of 90.
> Coping is old habit that people do not want to give up.
> ...


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## specwood (Sep 5, 2005)

King of Crown said:


> King of Crown said:
> 
> 
> > Coping is old habit that people do not want to give up.
> ...


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Might wanna' change your name from King of Crown to 'Mighty Miter'!!:cheesygri


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## nywoodwizard (Sep 10, 2005)

*no backing ?*

for you guys that don't use a backing board,what exactly are you nailing your crown to ? sheetrock ? ,toe the sh-t out of it? it only takes a few min to nail or screw the 1x s up once there cut. to be the best you must give the best! as far as saws i use a 12" dewalt slidding compound ,nice tall fence ,crown brackets to hold angels(sold seperatly) i'm happy with it :thumbsup:


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## King of Crown (Oct 12, 2005)

nail to the studs, the same you do with the backing.


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## King of Crown (Oct 12, 2005)

Tom R said:


> Might wanna' change your name from King of Crown to 'Mighty Miter'!!:cheesygri


thats not that bad of an idea:biggrin:


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## nywoodwizard (Sep 10, 2005)

off couse you nail to the studs,sounds like somebody is ignoring the question,top and bottom,how would you secure it to the ceiling opposite side of the joist? to the 3/4 inch cleat the sheetrock is nailed to,i would assume you nail top and bottom of the crown if you are installing it right,opposite side of the joist you would need a 5" nail to catch the plate for a medium crown,unless a crappy job is done and its only toe nailed to the sheet rock were there is no wood,i know alot of guys do it that way but not me .:jester:


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## trimguy (Jun 15, 2005)

carpenter1st said:


> anyone ever heard of a bevel square??? they work great for those pesky out of square corners. some trim profiles are too much of a PITA for a coping saw-even with a contour gauge.


 When you start doing trim, if you're going to cope the corners, the coping saw is the first thing you learn to use.(Kindergarden stuff)


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## Deacon (Apr 4, 2005)

Gotta cope. It's far more forgiving (which I believe actually saves time in the long run), makes for a much tighter joint, and although it takes longer than miter cutting, I am convinced it does indeed last longer against shrinking and movement.

About the caulking, I used to use the Alex until I was introduced to the Sherwin-Williams 950A. Great stuff! I get it from my SW store at a contractor's price of about $1.28/tube. They also have a contractor's grade NR4000 which is pretty good too (about 100% better than the Alex) for about $0.98/tube. Yup, cheaper _and_ better than Alex!


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