# Saved the company from some fines today



## glassman (Apr 16, 2009)

Checking up on four large commercial jobs today,at # three,I see my lead installer engaged in a discussion with the site safety foreman who also happened to be visited by OSHA personnel.
OSHA guys are crawling over job site taking pictures,checking cord ends,etc.
OSHA guy finds some discarded HILTI shot strips that have unspent loads in our general work vicinity. GC's safety guy spots our HILTI tool cases sitting on tail gate of truck and assumed we were the culprits. Tempers are flaring until I interjected, our scope of work did not require us to power nail our frames,and after I opened up the supposed nail case,(all HILTI products are housed in red storage boxes) revealing our cordless impact drivers and hammer drills.
OSHA dudes were satisfied we were not responsible,and got an apology from site safety guy.:clap: I don't know which other trade didn't police their trash pickup,but somebody was getting a fine,just a reminder that something so seemingly minor can turn major real quickly.


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## ampman (Apr 1, 2009)

imagine my suprise when i learn that if a rivit comes out of a ladder and you replace it with grade 8 hardware its a 7,000.00 fine i think a new ladder is cheaper


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## mccarty.74 (Jul 4, 2009)

Money is better in commercial but so are the headaches. 8 years in this business in residential work and have never seen an OSHA rep. The way I look at it, MY safety is MY concern. Men die daily in their line of work in the middle east, but here at home we need to somehow curtail the ever-growing number of potentially unsafe unused Hilti shots? God I hate OSHA!


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## OGStilts (Aug 30, 2007)

mccarty.74 said:


> Money is better in commercial but so are the headaches. 8 years in this business in residential work and have never seen an OSHA rep. The way I look at it, MY safety is MY concern. Men die daily in their line of work in the middle east, but here at home we need to somehow curtail the ever-growing number of potentially unsafe unused Hilti shots? God I hate OSHA!


Not so fast McCarty, A couple of months ago I lined up my mason for a simple chimney repair on a home. Within 2 hours of them starting that job, I hadn't even been to the job site yet, OSHA had stopped by and shut them down for not having scaffold rails and hardhats. My mason was only charging me $2,300 for the job and he got nailed for a $10,000 fine. I still don't know how I didn't even get as much as a phone call from OSHA for that one but I'm counting my lucky stars. 

My point is that residential is not immune to the wrath of OSHA and you don't have to be a big national company to catch their eye.


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## mccarty.74 (Jul 4, 2009)

I know, eventually, my day of reckoning will come. I just can't get on board with someone else looking out for my well-being. Let me worry about me and you worry about you. Somewhere along the line, in this country, we've robbed people of their own responsibility of common sense. If it's genuinely and life-threateningly dangerous then it shouldn't be done. But if the worst result would be a bump, bruise, or scratch then let it be. In summation, I have been told that my views on the subject of safety are "immature" but if I don't want to wear safety glasses when I'm cutting a 2x4 I don't need a third party telling me that I must or face a $10,000 fine.


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## custrel (Jun 30, 2009)

mccarty.74 said:


> The way I look at it, MY safety is MY concern. !


No it isn't. Your actions impact everyone else on the job. 

If you are an employee, your employer could end up being responsible for your actions even though they've told you repeatedly how to work safely.

If you are an employer, you are just begging your employees to follow your unsafe example. If one of them gets hurt because he ignores safety because 'the boss does the same thing,' you're probably looking at a workman's comp claim at the very least.

Additionally, you could, and probably do endanger co-workers with your unsafe actions.

Most people who get hurt on the job, get hurt from falls less than 10'. Most of those are preventable. But a lot of other people get hurt because some co-worker disregards safety concerns and creates a situation that results in an accident.

Say you pin back the gaurd on a saw you are working with, and at some point Joe Apprentice tries to cut something with your saw but cuts himself instead. Is Joe going to be held at fault? Nope. The guy who pinned back the saw will be. And, ultimately, the employer will be as well.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

mccarty.74 said:


> I know, eventually, my day of reckoning will come. I just can't get on board with someone else looking out for my well-being. Let me worry about me and you worry about you. Somewhere along the line, in this country, we've robbed people of their own responsibility of common sense. If it's genuinely and life-threateningly dangerous then it shouldn't be done. But if the worst result would be a bump, bruise, or scratch then let it be. In summation, I have been told that my views on the subject of safety are "immature" but if I don't want to wear safety glasses when I'm cutting a 2x4 I don't need a third party telling me that I must or face a $10,000 fine.


Its not you in particular they are looking out for. Look at the history of OSHA and what their mission is. They are supposed to make all workplaces safer for the employee. 

Now, maybe that's against your personal beliefs, but its still a fact of our business. 

We have to deal with it, no matter what we think. Its much cheaper to operate under their rules, than to break them even once and get busted for it.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mccarty.74 said:


> .... if I don't want to wear safety glasses when I'm cutting a 2x4 I don't need a third party telling me that I must or face a $10,000 fine.




So which 3rd party is responsible for driving you to the hospital with a splinter or worse embedded in your eye?


You see...your actions - or lack thereof - DO impact others.

So you decide to "man-up" and get thing out of your own eye....with 1/2 the job site now grinding to a halt because someone decided to DIY first-aid on their eyeball.

You see...your actions - or lack thereof - DO impact others.


What are you...some sort of drama queen that must be the center of attention because your "too cool" to put on a pair of $3 safety glasses?


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## mccarty.74 (Jul 4, 2009)

So which 3rd party is responsible for driving you to the hospital with a splinter or worse embedded in your eye?

What would be worse? Binding and having the entire 2x4 stuck in my eye?


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mccarty.74 said:


> > So which 3rd party is responsible for driving you to the hospital with a splinter or worse embedded in your eye?
> >
> > What would be worse? Binding and having the entire 2x4 stuck in my eye?



Being evasive and STILL trying to justify your position


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## mccarty.74 (Jul 4, 2009)

I knew when I wrote on the subject that I would elicit these kinds of responses. This is one of the subjects that I feel very strongly on. "Drama queen?" Hardly, rather I much prefer to stay out of the limelight. Maybe I'm a product of my environment, because when I started working in this field I was employed by one tough son of a *****. And to this day he is one of 2 men that has my untarnished respect. I can't work a desk job because I simply don't have it in me. Conversely, this line of work requires a certain level of immunity to pain. But I didn't bash you for your views on safety consciousness did I?


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## mccarty.74 (Jul 4, 2009)

No, my position was not proposed for you to accept. Neither do I presume you will offer me yours.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

mccarty.74 said:


> I knew when I wrote on the subject that I would elicit these kinds of responses. This is one of the subjects that I feel very strongly on. "Drama queen?" Hardly, rather I much prefer to stay out of the limelight.


:blink:

You knew you would elicit these responses....prefer to stay out of the limelight.

You can't stick your head in a lion's mouth w/o getting some drool on it.




mccarty.74 said:


> Maybe I'm a product of my environment, because when I started working in this field I was employed by one tough son of a *****. And to this day he is one of 2 men that has my untarnished respect. I can't work a desk job because I simply don't have it in me. Conversely, this line of work requires a certain level of immunity to pain.


So what so some PITA did - they was perfectly acceptable 20, 25, 30 years ago - is still acceptable today?

I don't buy it.

"Immunity to pain"?

Ever hear this one:
Hard work shouldn't hurt.




mccarty.74 said:


> But I didn't bash you for your views on safety consciousness did I?


What's to bash?
I chose to get home everyday under my own steam, in the same condition I left in and unlace my own boots.

I chose to not put those working around me in harm's way...so they can go home everyday under their own steam, in the same condition they left in and unlace their own boots.

I prefer not to disrupt the job site, slow production down and add costs.

....and this is a bad thing, exactly how?



mccarty.74 said:


> No, my position was not proposed for you to accept. Neither do I presume you will offer me yours.



My position is simple: Wear PPE.


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## bradgunn (Aug 13, 2009)

*Job site safety*

This one goes round and round. I don't suppose anybody really wants people hurt on their job site, and nobody plans on getting hurt, but we've all seen the cartoons of a guy with hard-hat, steel toes, eye protection, hearing protection, gloves, back support and knee pads - kinda hard to do any work, might not even be safe.

When I started framing, they took the saw guards _off_, not just pinned back. But I noticed that it was automatic to lay the saw down with blade _away_ from the legs. Don't always see that now.

I see people (not my crew) using 125# aluminum ladders, broken wooden ladders, improvised scaffold with no rails, roofing without jacks or safety lines. Don't even start on the electric cords other crews bring.

I've never had an employee hurt, but I've got lots of scars myself.

I'm just curious, in the real world, does anybody follow _all_ the regs?


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## woodchuck2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Nobody follows the rules completely. It would be damn near impossible to get your work done no less the cost that would be passed to the customer. Imagine telling a customer that you replacing a light bulb in a high ceiling will cost at least an hours labor on top of a service call because you have to put on you safety harness, tie your ladder off, tie yourself off, put on your steel toe shoes, safety goggles, hearing protection, hardhat, chaps, knee pads, gloves and back brace just so you can waddle up a ladder 12' and replace a .69 cent light bulb. It would take longer to get yourself ready for the job than it would to do it. I agree that we all need to be safe and there are alot of guys who do not practice job safety but there comes a time when too much safety becomes unsafe. Accidents do happen and will always happen, it is up to you to be safe and have the ability to recognize when others are unsafe around you.


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## bradgunn (Aug 13, 2009)

Woodchuck gets it. Custrel not so much - safety _is_ everyone's responsibility, but huge fines for thousands of minor infractions in a job which is _always_ potentially dangerous may not be the best solution.
This is why some posters sound frustrated and anti-regulation, even while they are (probably) trying to be safe as the rest of us.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Good points, - - government is not our friend, especially at $7,000 a rivet.

Reasonable fines would be one thing, - - but they've gone way past even raucous self-sustenance.

The fines are 100 times what would be reasonable and then they've got 'brainwash-guilt' as an interference diversion.

I guess I get some of my skepticism from when I first started in construction and witnessed my first boss pay a certain 'business bureau' off to make something go away (that he was completely guilty of).

Oh, - - and he was politely told the next time it would cost him _double_.

Yep, - - another one of those good old 'protection' agencies . . .


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## S Winklepleck (Jul 31, 2009)

mccarty.74 said:


> What would be worse? Binding and having the entire 2x4 stuck in my eye?



Right, cause this happens all the time  If you're not wearing safety glasses when using a tool that creates any sort of airborne debris, you're asking to get something wedged in your eye. You get something wedged in your eye, you've got a good shot at getting an infection in your eye, and that's not a cheap hospital visit. I've heard enough stories of people who have had to have their eye removed because they thought the sliver was no big deal and would come out on its own, and by the time they figured it out that it wouldn't, it was too late, the infection had caused too much damage. 

To continue to try to defend your position on this is stupid. If you can't see through your safety glasses, get a new pair. Other than that, there's nothing about wearing them that would cause you to bind your saw blade in the lumber, and even if you did, your eyes are the last thing you'd need to worry about. Go get some safety glasses and WEAR THEM. It's not worth the fines OR the possibility of an eye injury not to do so.


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## bradgunn (Aug 13, 2009)

*jobsite safety*

Tom R gets it. S Winklpeck (?) not so much.
This thread started with the idea that OSHA was on a witch-hunt for any infraction (what was the problem with the Hilti shots anyway?) If that was the worst hazard on that job site I think they should just say "Nice job, fellas" and go on to the next site.
S.W. I'm sure even Tom runs a pretty good job site, his problem is with bureaucratic lunacy (right Tom?) not safety.
BTW I lied on my original post. I did have a painter lock himself in the bathroom without his mask (charcoal, not paper) which I provided - but that's another post.
Play nicely.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

bradgunn said:


> (what was the problem with the Hilti shots anyway?)


They were discarded and were not properly disposed of. They are a gunpowder charge in a rim fire cartridge. They could blow someones toe off or send debris flying with enough force to seriously injure someone. Or, just start a fire. Pick your poison.


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## S Winklepleck (Jul 31, 2009)

bradgunn said:


> Tom R gets it. S Winklpeck (?) not so much.
> This thread started with the idea that OSHA was on a witch-hunt for any infraction (what was the problem with the Hilti shots anyway?) If that was the worst hazard on that job site I think they should just say "Nice job, fellas" and go on to the next site.
> S.W. I'm sure even Tom runs a pretty good job site, his problem is with bureaucratic lunacy (right Tom?) not safety.
> BTW I lied on my original post. I did have a painter lock himself in the bathroom without his mask (charcoal, not paper) which I provided - but that's another post.
> Play nicely.


I get it just fine, don't assume anything. I agree that the fines OSHA hands out and the OCD tendencies they have are over the top. I didn't even address that issue in my post. The point of my post was not to add to the topic, but to point out that the attitude of not being safe with something as simple as safety glasses is STUPID. No one can be perfect, sure, but to overlook the BASICS is STUPID. It's like not pulling or bending nails in a board and leaving them sticking up for someone to put a hole in their foot. Plenty of people are going to leave unspent Hilti, ramset, and other shells lying around without giving it a second thought. Plenty of people have no guard on their jobsite table saw, which OSHA would be happy to issue a fine for. It's ridiculous, and I'm not arguing against that. I'm saying that ignoring the basics is STUPID. Not wearing safety glasses is STUPID. Pinning the guard on a circular saw is STUPID. Leaving boards lying around with nails sticking up is STUPID! Anyone who does THESE things DESERVES an OSHA fine.

Ignorance doesn't belong on this forum.


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## bradgunn (Aug 13, 2009)

Double A (moderator) is right to emphasize the danger of unspent shots lying around. Glassman (op) is right to post his thankyou, because Double A's post goes right to the point of Glassman's original post: safety (not OSHA). Thought I'd explain all that because I got myself on the wrong side of this important issue. For what it's worth, I keep a clean job-site and would not tolerate something this dangerous.


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## bradgunn (Aug 13, 2009)

S.Winklepleck is right. He is on track with Glassman's original post about the serious consequences of violating safety reg's and common sense. 
All of his examples are commonly seen and dangerous. I run a clean jobsite myself, and while it is tempting to rag on OSHA, on the issue of safety, I agree with S.W. 
There's a lot of ignorance and stupidity out there, don't want to part of it.
Thanks for the post, Steve, sorry I had reouble with the spelling first time around.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

bradgunn said:


> Thanks for the post, Steve, sorry I had reouble with the spelling first time around.



Have any "*reouble* with the spelling" this time :laughing:










....LOOK at...here's comes the spelling police!!!!


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## mccarty.74 (Jul 4, 2009)

I'm glad to see that I have at least a few guys on here with whom I share some common ground. I didn't post my original thoughts just to prove that I'm a macho badass. I, certainly, don't begin each day by firing the Paslode into my thigh just to prove that I can take it. Once again, Tom put it far more diplomatically than I ever could. The fines are absurd and I do not need Big Brother watching out for me. I've never asked anyone to do anything that had the potential for loss of limb or life, nor will I do it. However, entering this line of work everyone needs to understand that there is far more opportunity for injury in this field than most others. It's a shame that the pay doesn't necessarily reflect it.


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## mccarty.74 (Jul 4, 2009)

By the way Tom, I'm back on your bandwagon regardless of how much **** Gus gives me. I insist on driving it too. Now who's coming with me?


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## bradgunn (Aug 13, 2009)

Yeah, yeah. Celtic gets it right. I was so busy backtracking I forgot spell-check.
Pretty funny, I was trying so hard to spell the guys name right....
Hilti shots, spelling errors, OSHA's gonna get me for sure.


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## Celtic (May 23, 2007)

bradgunn said:


> Hilti shots, spelling errors, OSHA's gonna get me for sure.



:laughing:


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

*Warning: OSHA Can Be Hazardous to Your Health*

By Raymond J. Keating • March 1996 
_Mr. Keating is chief economist for the Small Business Survival Foundation. _


How could anyone find fault with a government agency whose stated mission is “to assure so far as possible every working man and woman in the nation safe and healthful working conditions and to preserve our human resources”? 

*As is typical with government agencies brandishing impossible missions, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has become a burdensome regulatory body, seemingly more concerned with pushing paper and imposing fines rather than in establishing safer working environments.* Indeed, since OSHA’s first month in existence in 1970, when it instituted 4,400 job safety and health rules, the agency has played the role of adversary to American business.


_continued . . . _

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/warning-osha-can-be-hazardous-to-your-health/


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

mccarty.74 said:


> By the way Tom, I'm back on your bandwagon regardless of how much **** Gus gives me. I insist on driving it too. Now who's coming with me?



Nobody listens to Gus (unless we're talkin' about woodworkin') :laughing:


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## mccarty.74 (Jul 4, 2009)

Same thing with a large portion of of traffic enforcement. Civil service wasn't intended to be a profitable business venture. Man I can't wait to get into that political forum...


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## JDavis21835 (Feb 27, 2009)

Try working in a trade where no matter what you do, OSHA can find something wrong with a trench. Combine that with safety officers from clients that dont understand whats going on. Excavation can be a tough business when safety folks dont know. My favorite, a lawn products manufacturer in Ohio. We were running a new sewer line for them. Their safety officer came out to our job. I can understand the no tobacco products. I can even understand the seat belt in any machine requirement. But when she started to tell us that our pipe layer and tailman could not be in the trench box while the excavator was making a cut. We asked her how are we going to grade for a piece of pipe? She suggested that our pipe layer and tailman stood OUTSIDE of the trench box. We explained to her that big heavy trench box was there to protect those guys in the hole. So then she went to her vehicle, got a can of paint, and marked up the OUTSIDE of the box. She painted a line and said, thats where those guys can stand. No where else. Boy I was glad to see her drive away.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

mccarty.74 said:


> Same thing with a large portion of of traffic enforcement. Civil service wasn't intended to be a profitable business venture. Man I can't wait to get into that political forum...


You have to learn all the words to the spiritual "Kum Bah Yah", and learn to sing it in 3 major keys and 2 minor keys. 

All new P&R members join hands and sing all five verses through once for each memebr of the P&R section. 

I think Tom'R is this quarter's volunteer song leader, but I might be mistaken.:w00t:


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## mccarty.74 (Jul 4, 2009)

2 things I don't do: 1) Sing 2)Dance. But I'll follow Tom into war any day.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Just a few months ago . . . 


*OSHA fines newspaper for reporter’s fall down stadium stairs*

April 10, 2009 by Fred Hosier 



Not only is this a bizarre OSHA fine, it could set a dangerous precedent. The agency has fined a company for an employee’s fatal injury that happened while he was away from his home office on assignment. 

Buffalo News sportswriter Tom Borrelli fell while climbing a steep set of stairs on Nov. 8, 2008, at Buffalo’s All High Stadium where he was covering a football game.

Borrelli was trying to enter the stadium’s press box. To get there, reporters have to climb 13 steep metal stairs, prop open a hatch and walk across an unprotected walkway on the stadium roof.

Borrelli apparently hit his head at the top of the stairs and fell down them.

The reporter was paralyzed from the neck down after the fall and died of his injuries 12 days later.

Now OSHA has issued a fine — not against Buffalo public schools, but against the newspaper for sending Borrelli to cover the game. Total fine: $31,500.

OSHA found that:


_continued . . . _



http://www.safetynewsalert.com/osha-fines-newspaper-for-reporters-fall-down-stadium-stairs/


(the comment section after the article is interesting too) :thumbsup:


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

I agree that some osha regs are ridiculous, but I've worked for people that had osha not existed, I probably would not be alive today. They are in place to protect employees, however owners and sub-contractors do get caught in the crossfire and are the most affected by it, as many employees have the attitude of, "screw that it's not my fine" I also believe that the fines are so high to deter one from just looking at the fines as "another cost of business" and mandating life threatening procedure. I don't care how many roofs I've done, I am NOT starting a 3 story 8/12 or better without a harness and rope, I think it's a bunch of crap though, that once started and jacked across the bottom that I still have to be tied off. But this is the nature of the beast.


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## Cdat (Apr 18, 2007)

What I don't understand is why OSHA shows up unexpectedly? They always inform me beforehand when they're coming. Maybe because we treat them better?


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## maninthesea (Nov 11, 2008)

I agree with the intent of OSHA but now what it has become. It seems to me that they need to issue fines to justify their continued existance more than protect the american worker. 

I have had VERY few dealings with OSHA but the one that sticks in my head was when an inspector came to take an air sample from out compressor after we had had a death on a comercial dive job(It was a PFO for divers in the know). 

The inspector wanted to take an air sample from the same 3000psi filling valves we had used to fill the divers tanks. So I took him out and showed him and watched him struggle with his plastic bag contraption for a while. Then he finaly asked me if I knew how his air sampling bag worked. I took a look and suggested that it appeared to me that he woudl have to open the ball valve to allow air in. So he took that advise opened the ball valve, put his mouth up to the tube and BLEW INTO THE SAMPLE BAG!. Then proceded to hold the sample tube up to the air source and fill the rest of the bag.

I did not want to call him an idiot so I just let him take the sample then as soon as he was gone I told my boss what happened. He had me put it all down on paper in case the sample came back bad. We never heard anything either way so i guess the sample passed. 

The point is this guy had no Clue what he was doing. They were just going thru the motions of checking the company out becuase someone higher up told them to. The inspector even told me he was in Guam to inspect construction and had no training in this area at all but was directed to come by becuase he was here. 
Our company on the other hand to avoid any other injuries to employees learned from the incident and mandated a test for PFO and a couple other diveing related tests in the physical which up to this point was more or less a generic physical. So all the osha guy did was take up time, get paid at tax doller expense to take and proccess a sample that was contaminated and also had no bearing on the incedent but the employer on the other hand made the jobplace safer.


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## maninthesea (Nov 11, 2008)

Forgot to add that I dont think unspent hilti shots are as dangerous as they are made out to be. As a kid I used to shoot them out of a wrist rocket at cement floors or grain silos to watch them go off. But I remember them being 25 or 27cal not 22cal. Or i would have fired them off in a gun. Even throwing a 22cal LR bullet at a wall or floor will get it to go off if it hits right. You dont get a bullet flying around like it came out of a gun what you get is a piece of brass flying pretty quick but not anywere like it came out of a gun. I know I got hit in the legs more than once and it did not even break the skin. NOT THAT I RECOMEND any of the above but I can say as a kid I did do all the above and as a kid I knew that the brass would be the projectile not the lead becuase the lead is heavier.

FLAME AWAY!


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## A&E Exteriors (Aug 14, 2009)

maninthesea said:


> Forgot to add that I dont think unspent hilti shots are as dangerous as they are made out to be. As a kid I used to shoot them out of a wrist rocket at cement floors or grain silos to watch them go off. But I remember them being 25 or 27cal not 22cal. Or i would have fired them off in a gun. Even throwing a 22cal LR bullet at a wall or floor will get it to go off if it hits right. You dont get a bullet flying around like it came out of a gun what you get is a piece of brass flying pretty quick but not anywere like it came out of a gun. I know I got hit in the legs more than once and it did not even break the skin. NOT THAT I RECOMEND any of the above but I can say as a kid I did do all the above and as a kid I knew that the brass would be the projectile not the lead becuase the lead is heavier.
> 
> FLAME AWAY!


yeah, the worst I've heard of is a guy I knew, threw about 4 strays in the jobsite fire and got a piece of one in his leg. We used to hammer them so they could not be classified as "live shots"


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

maninthesea said:


> FLAME AWAY!



:laughing: That's the spirit!! :laughing: :thumbsup:


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## maninthesea (Nov 11, 2008)

Tom R said:


> :laughing: That's the spirit!! :laughing: :thumbsup:


I went to both Army and Navy boot camp, aint no amount of internet shouting gonna bother me much!



> yeah, the worst I've heard of is a guy I knew, threw about 4 strays in the jobsite fire and got a piece of one in his leg. We used to hammer them so they could not be classified as "live shots"


Hammering them is something I would consider more dangerous. If you hammer a few and build up a depression big enough to be sealed off by the hammer head when you detinate you could contain things enough to cause a problem. How do I know this? Supposedly thats eactly what some kid in the next town over was doing with caps from a cap gun when he blew the end of his pinkie off. I dont know if this was true or a rural rumor(cant be an urban rumor in the part of Idaho I grew up in)


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