# Pricing structure for tile



## AtlRemodeling (Jan 23, 2008)

No I am not asking specifically how to price something :no:

My problem is I have been using a very good tile installer for just over a year. He started out charging $5/sf for porcelain tile run straight with extra charges for things such as seats in the shower, shampoo boxes or special accents.

It seems that each job he adds a little bit extra for other items (it is like a slow, never-ending bait and switch) such as backer board, bullnose, shower curb, etc. Today was the final straw when he called and said he needed thinset since the HO had not provided any and he would have to leave if I didn't get it over soon. 

I am still trying to pickup the pieces of my head after I blew my stack. I have no problem paying for good quality work but this seems a bit excessive. I have never had a tile installer request that we provide thinset. To me this would be like a trim installer request that I buy him nails.

For you tile guys, how do you typically charge (not specific prices) for showers/tubs. Do you itemize each thing such as sf of tile, lf of accents, lf of bullnose, sf of backer, etc? Or are some of these items included in your base price?


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

I agree with you, he should supply his own thinset or at least spec out what he wants to use. I don't like the HO, or anyone else for that matter, to supply me with anything. Occasionally, I'll allow the HO supply the tile BUT that needs to be OK'd by me BEFORE the job begins. 

I have a standard charge for a fully tiled shower; no niches, benches or other, ceramic tile only with grid pattern. Extra charge for any accessories. Extra charge for certain tile (glass, stone, etc). Extra charge for advanced patterns. Extra charge for detailed edges. 

Basically, there are thousands of options to construct a tiled shower. I don't see anyway it would be possible for an installer to create an all-inclusive price list for you. However, if you feel he's screwing you somehow, get a new guy to bid against him. See how far off the two bids are. 

Also, I didn't see any mention of waterproofing in your post. If your tile guy isn't WATERPROOFING your wet locations, you may want to consider a new guy anyway.


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## dakzaag (Jan 6, 2009)

AtlRemodeling said:


> No I am not asking specifically how to price something :no:
> 
> My problem is I have been using a very good tile installer for just over a year. He started out charging $5/sf for porcelain tile run straight with extra charges for things such as seats in the shower, shampoo boxes or special accents.
> 
> ...


 
As a brickie, I work for the GC, HO or anyone, but the terms and conditions have to be spelled out. I typically give a non itemized estimate of labor and materials for the job. If I'm supplying the materials, I pick up the items and quantities I need to complete the job and include them in the estimate. 

If the HO/GC wants to buy the material, then they get to do the estimating and buying and a phone call asking where the mortar is or whatever item might be missing. 

I am not a big fan of letting someone else decide how much and what brand mortar is needed, but if that is the way they want to play, then they get the call when something is missing or inferior quality. 

This needs to be addressed in the contract, not on the phone when the job is in progress. 


If his work is good quality, then spend a few more minutes before the job defining the scope of responsibilities and let him do his job. Or you can find a new installer off Craigs List and have a whole new set of problems.:whistling


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

When I bid a shower for example, I bid the backer board and screws and thinset as one unit, then kerdi, then SQ of field wall tiles, LF of bullnose, LF of listello, niches, benches etc.. then the floor tiles as an allotment unless all tile is picked out. Thinset grout sealer etc need to accounted for.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

AtlRemodeling said:


> No I am not asking specifically how to price something :no:
> 
> My problem is I have been using a very good tile installer for just over a year. He started out charging *$5/sf for porcelain tile run straight* with extra charges for things such as seats in the shower, shampoo boxes or special accents.
> 
> ...


At $5 a ft2 he should be supplying the thinset, if it was not included, it should have been clear from the beginning.

Get another tile guy.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

bwalley said:


> *At $5 a ft2 he should be supplying the thinset*, if it was not included, it should have been clear from the beginning.
> 
> Get another tile guy.


Why? Because where you are, rates are so depressed that $5/ft without materials sounds like a rip off in your opinion? How does an hvac guy *know* what a tile guy is supposed to charge, exactly??
Not picking at you but, before making a statement like that you have to know what you are comparing things to :thumbsup: 

To the op...sounds like you need a contract first and foremost. It never ceases to amaze me how many jobs in the "contracting" industry fail to actually have a contract. That is the whole point of one in the first place...so everyone knows who is responsible for what, at what cost.:whistling


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

All of this stuff should have been laid out before the job starts.

When setting tile I provide every thing except the tile-I don't give any one control over materials-
I know what works--Some things I buy in bulk--I think that's the way most tilers work.

By the way--$5.00 a foot for a shower is a 1980's price around here.The guy may be going broke and trying to salvage a looser bid. 

---MIKE--


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

I agree with the previous post. I do not do tile work for other contractors but I cannot fathom doing it for $5.00 sq ft. 

If he is good, sit down and talk to him and explain your concerns. You may find out why he is jacking your prices.

After that if you both think you can work together, make up an agreement that states who is supplying what and prices.

You gotta remember, if you want good consistant work from your subs, BOTH of you gotta make a living!

Good luck!


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

It's not just your tile guy, i've tried different subs over the years because i want to keep ties with folks if we need the additional help. Over the years i have a handful of men/crews that are on my immediate go-to list and that i work with almost exclusively because we're all on the same page as to what needs to be done, if something comes up they handle it. BUT i've ran into soooo many of these pre-maddona whiners over the years that are literally helpless, and i think it's because they get used to things being done for them so they establish a set way of doing things, and if something is out of the norm they mentally crash and hit a wall. The one that pizzed me off last winter i had my normal flooring guy doing the carpet and linolium in a flip house, well it needed to have new luan put down prior to installing the new vinyl.....i got a call "do you have a saw, do you have a compressor, do you have a stapler, do you have staples i can borrow?" Okay, floors are your gig and you dont have the most basic of tools...well, whatever, he does a great job so i drop everything off. The morning they got going i feilded 5 phone calls in 30 minutes wondering how to put the subfloor down, what about this, what about that...all extremely basic stuff IMO.

i dont know, maybe that's why they do one job only, and why i got into general contracting and keep most work in house since i grew tired of dealing with brain dead fools that pollute our industry with things like this. Of the tiles subs i've used, THEY speced the backboard, scews for backboard, thinset, BRAND/TYPE of grout they want but we will tell the homie where to go to chose a color they want, same with tile since the combinations are limitless.....but when my tile guy bids a job, he knows what it needs, and makes my bid all inclusive...i mean for gawds sake, it's a shower, floor, backsplash...is'nt anything about these basic tile jobs rocket science, so i too would've blew my gasket. I am so tired of dealing with subs that act like they need a silver spoon to be fed with, there's too many other good subs out there that WANT to work and have the mental capacity to deal with minor glitches in a game plan, i have no tolerance at this point for "veterans that act like a new kid on the block"


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

^^ Not saying it is the case with you IHI, but...so many times this is the result of a GC going with a low bidder. You guys want a sub who knows what they are doing, is prepared for damned near anything, doesn't need to borrow tools etc..but don't want to pay for it. Just my experience. 

Hell, I have more tools on my _flooring_ truck than most GCs own. When I bid a shower I look at structure, water proofing, plumbing issues, design work, etc... but I'm often looked at like a three headed alien when my price is read, because, ya know, Jose does walls for like $4/ft. Then the same guys is at the local watering hole bitching because Jose needs to borrow a genny _and_ a wetsaw :whistling

I do agree with the above as far as specing a job though. I spec _everything_ and my price is one number, all inclusive..homie just selects a grout color from my chipset.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

PrecisionFloors said:


> ^^ Not saying it is the case with you IHI, but...so many times this is the result of a GC going with a low bidder. You guys want a sub who knows what they are doing, is prepared for damned near anything, doesn't need to borrow tools etc..but don't want to pay for it. Just my experience.
> 
> Hell, I have more tools on my _flooring_ truck than most GCs own. When I bid a shower I look at structure, water proofing, plumbing issues, design work, etc... but I'm often looked at like a three headed alien when my price is read, because, ya know, Jose does walls for like $4/ft. Then the same guys is at the local watering hole bitching because Jose needs to borrow a genny _and_ a wetsaw :whistling
> 
> I do agree with the above as far as specing a job though. I spec _everything_ and my price is one number, all inclusive..homie just selects a grout color from my chipset.



That is the exact reason i lose more jobs than i win, when i call in subs to give me a price, i'm like an elephant, i dont forget where i came from since i used to be a sub years ago and know what subs go through and how they're treated...hence saying F..K everybody, i'll call my own shots. So when i call in my guys to bid, i dont question, i dont try to hack them off at the knees, i just ask if they have every inclusive so nobody gets a suprise bill at the end, and is yet another reason i have a small group of guys because they bid honest and are men of their word...which is hard to find anymore, our handshakes still as good as a signature simply because we've worked together so much over the years...and when they're done, i will pay that day if they need it, or the day i recieve their invoice....to me this is simple business, though i often read exploits on here that say for most it is not, which is sad IMO. 

IMO if these GC's want to make more profits, dont sacrifice quality of the work by hiring bums to do the work you had bid by true professionals....learn to sell the job for crying out loud with your increased price...everything is bid into a job anyhow, if a person wants to sell and see 10% over gross...learn to sell 10% over gross, or whatever percentage you want. But just as there's idiot GC's out there with no clue trying to "be the man", there's just as many subs out there trying to be the man too and as just as clueless.....today's industry is pathetic, partly driven by consumers wanting something for nothing, and partly due to moonlighters cutting pricing and dropping things well below a market value for true professionals to perform the work...many guy are like me and believe in the old saying, "I can stay at home and go broke, i'm sure not going to get out of bed and work at it" 

So if the OP went over the job with the sub explaining everything that was to be done and got hit with the BS "add on's" i would find a new guy and not think twice about never using him again and spreading the word on his practices to help him slowly lose business...and luckily in my area we have alot of guys that think like i do that speak up whenever possible to pull the rug out from under these fools. BUT if the OP did'nt go over the job as to what was expected, then it's on him...not on the sub. Communication is KEY when using subs because it's no different than walking into a dealership and telling the salepuke- "order me a truck"...and it shows up as a 2wd colorado/S-10 but what you REALLY wanted was a crew cab 4x 1T diesel....but without proper communication as to what is expected...nothing good can come from it.


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Just keep in mind prices of everything have been steadily increasing for a few years now more-so than in prior recent years. As time goes on and if an installer is staying abreast of his trade then prices will increase almost with every job.

I can't imagine any installer allowing anyone to choose the materials he will work with-that is just plain stupid. Stupid, unless he is looking for an "out" around every corner and wants to later claim if a problem arises that he didn't furnish the products so he isn't responsible for the outcome. See it done from time to time.

As far as pricing...I wouldn't leave home for $5 a square foot, and that's just for floors, walls are even higher.

I too have a base rate per square foot for a basic shower, EVERTHING after that is an extra.


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## AtlRemodeling (Jan 23, 2008)

Thanks everyone for the replies. A couple of quick notes:

We certainly were using backer and waterproofing; I just did not want to list every single item in OP.

We sat down on Friday and discussed pricing and we were working out a comprehensive list of "standard" charges for all future bathrooms. Obviously, anything out of the ordinary was to be extra. However, then comes the call yesterday about the thinset which set me off. 

I did not jump through his hoop and explained that if he did not have thinset in his trailer that he should go ahead and head on home and then I proceeded to head off to another job to meet a client. Miraculously, thinset must have appeared since the walls of the shower were complete upon my return.

I am not saying $5/sf should be the price for then entire shower nor do I ever push subs to give me a lower price (as Jarvis said "both of us have to make money"). He gave me his price when we originally started working together and it seems that each job thereafter there has been one more small addition to that price. This is my main complaint since we normally can not have every sub come out to every job we are bidding. 

As stated earlier, we sat down on Friday to get prices for as many aspects of tile that we could come up with so I can use these in upcoming proposals. We have just started using a true Work Order for all subs and this should eliminate/reduce the problem.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

AtlRemodeling said:


> He gave me his price when we originally started working together and it seems that each job thereafter there has been one more small addition to that price. This is my main complaint since we normally can not have every sub come out to every job we are bidding.


Welp, after all this it boils down to ultimately being YOUR problem and not his problem. Your shooting a price for a sub without him seeing it....ya know how there's jobs YOU dont want and you bid accordingly, guess what...so does everybody else. So here's a quick lesson since you have'nt learned it yet...IF you plan on bidding for other trades, you dang sure better have plenty of mark up built in.....esspecially when your not having them look at the job.

How long have you been doing this?
Are you licsenced at all in your area? I did'nt find anything stating you were so wondering how your able to do work anyhow?

Two sides of the story, just glad i found out you are a hack trying to play your bleeding heart card for being a tool and not having an idea how to sell or run a job.


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## AtlRemodeling (Jan 23, 2008)

IHI said:


> Welp, after all this it boils down to ultimately being YOUR problem and not his problem. Your shooting a price for a sub without him seeing it....ya know how there's jobs YOU dont want and you bid accordingly, guess what...so does everybody else. So here's a quick lesson since you have'nt learned it yet...IF you plan on bidding for other trades, you dang sure better have plenty of mark up built in.....esspecially when your not having them look at the job.
> 
> How long have you been doing this?
> Are you licsenced at all in your area? I did'nt find anything stating you were so wondering how your able to do work anyhow?
> ...


It is obvious you do not have ANY f-ing clue about the situation nor mine. I have nearly 25 years in this business and we are certainly licensed to work as we permit everything we do.

I have standard prices from ALL of our subs and anything out of the ordinary is priced before it is bid on our part. The showers in question are not anything out of the ordinary. 12" tile run on straight with a simple accent stripe surrounded by a pencil border. The last 3-4 showers have been nearly identical.

IF you bothered to read the entire post you might have gathered that for each of the STANDARD showers of late, the tile subcontractor has added something else on to his pricing although we have not changed the overall installation. This was the problem not that I am ad-hoc pricing things for my subs you idiot. Here's a lesson for you: Next time you want to call someone a hack and a tool at least gather the facts first.


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## mikeswoods (Oct 11, 2008)

Well said.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

AtlRemodeling said:


> It is obvious you do not have ANY f-ing clue about the situation nor mine. I have nearly 25 years in this business and we are certainly licensed to work as we permit everything we do.
> 
> I have standard prices from ALL of our subs and anything out of the ordinary is priced before it is bid on our part. The showers in question are not anything out of the ordinary. 12" tile run on straight with a simple accent stripe surrounded by a pencil border. The last 3-4 showers have been nearly identical.
> 
> IF you bothered to read the entire post you might have gathered that for each of the STANDARD showers of late, the tile subcontractor has added something else on to his pricing although we have not changed the overall installation. This was the problem not that I am ad-hoc pricing things for my subs you idiot. Here's a lesson for you: Next time you want to call someone a hack and a tool at least gather the facts first.



I never said the work you did was hack...only your practices.
1. Having other contractors pull a permit for you- hack
2. NOT allowing subs to bid the work they will be called in to do and you thinking a "general" price covers everything- hack
3. Crying about a situation YOU could've 100% prevented yourself- hack

The term hack, at least for me, covers more than just the factory worker moonlighting, it deals with all facites of shadey business practices. I stated that in one of my above posts already. I realize there are always two sides to a story, so before i get the knives out, believe me, we get the facts first. Everything you whines about, was preventable, i learned quickly you dont dictate prices for other's and then complain if there are additional fees that you may have missed/overlooked. The times it is a questionable sale, i dont bother bringing in all the trades either (on smaller scooped work like a bath remodel) but i make dam sure i cover my rear when i start telling homies what a subbed trade fee will cost so i'm not pitching a fit on a board full of contractors that know how to run jobs and making myself sound foolish.

You graduated from GA Tech did'nt you? You've placed calls inquiring "what would you charge" to a few contractors in your area correct? Asked for a few leads on subs in your area correct? just want to make sure your the same guy i have info on so i'm sure my facts are straight Obviously you dont have to answer these questions publicy and start lieing since we both know the answers to all of the above....i'd figure a guy in your position doing this for 25 years would have plenty of subs in the rolledex to call upon and have prices on lock down...but what do i know


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

AtlRemodeling said:


> IF you bothered to read the entire post you might have gathered that for each of the STANDARD showers of late, the tile subcontractor has added something else on to his pricing although we have not changed the overall installation. This was the problem not that I am ad-hoc pricing things for my subs you idiot. Here's a lesson for you: Next time you want to call someone a hack and a tool at least gather the facts first.


Instead of getting pissed off when others point out the root of your problems, wouldn't it benefit you more to consider what they are trying to get across.

For instance if you had a sub-contractor agreement in place for each job with a fixed priced already would your sub be able to add anything he wants to the job? If you had this agreement wouldn't he be required to stop and inform you of a problem that will increase the cost of the job and require a signed change order in order for him to get paid the new amount?

I think the reason you are getting lit up is because deservedly or not your description of the way you operate invites this sort of thing from a sub.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

PrecisionFloors said:


> Why? Because where you are, rates are so depressed that $5/ft without materials sounds like a rip off in your opinion? *How does an hvac guy know what a tile guy is supposed to charge, exactly??*
> Not picking at you but, before making a statement like that you have to know what you are comparing things to :thumbsup:
> 
> To the op...sounds like you need a contract first and foremost. It never ceases to amaze me how many jobs in the "contracting" industry fail to actually have a contract. That is the whole point of one in the first place...so everyone knows who is responsible for what, at what cost.:whistling


I am a licensed General Contractor as well as a licensed HVAC Contractor, I have hired enough tile intsallers as well as set enough tile to know what I am talking about.

The OP said the guy started adding costs to the job and wanting him to supply other materials like thinset, obviouly the tile setter originally was supplying the thinset, then started wantingit to be provided for him.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

bwalley said:


> I am a licensed General Contractor as well as a licensed HVAC Contractor, *I have hired enough tile intsallers as well as set enough tile to know what I am talking about.*
> 
> The OP said the guy started adding costs to the job and wanting him to supply other materials like thinset, obviouly the tile setter originally was supplying the thinset, then started wantingit to be provided for him.


Ok lets say I give you that 100%....still doesn't explain how you can say what his pricing should or shouldn't be. That was my point. You said $5/ft is more than enough to cover install and thinset. How exactly can you say that? I'd be willing to bet I've set a helluva lot more tile than you have, and I can't say it....so how can you. 

I don't care to debate it back and forth. It peeves me when somebody (especially from a rate depressed area like FL) pipes up and says a low ball price should be enough. That's one of the biggest problems in this industry imo. Armchair bidders with no knowledge of what the job entails putting info out there that makes one of the good guys next job that much harder to land because some jackass decided he would give a prospective h.o. ammo. "Well some GC on the internet said $5/ft was really good money" 

I'm not saying you are a jackass, but you could be :thumbsup:

I know a fair amount about other trades as well. Hell, a good flooring guy has to do more crap that you would ever imagine just to keep from sitting on our ass waiting on somebody else....get it done or go home and make no money type of thing. You will never see me in another trades forum giving pricing advice. I respect them more than that.


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

bwalley said:


> I am a licensed General Contractor as well as a licensed HVAC Contractor, I have hired enough tile intsallers as well as set enough tile to know what I am talking about.
> 
> The OP said the guy started adding costs to the job and wanting him to supply other materials like thinset, *obviouly the tile setter originally was supplying the thinset, then started wantingit to be provided for him.*


I agree with you there 100%. If you agree to a job for a set price, you don't then turn around and start bumping because _you _ underbid it. But, again, this in part, is because of the mentality of cutting each others throat to get a job. Once they get the job, then they have to do it...."whoops didn't realize setting materials would cost _that_ much.....better find a way to make more money." :laughing:


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

PrecisionFloors said:


> I agree with you there 100%. If you agree to a job for a set price, you don't then turn around and start bumping because _you _underbid it. But, again, this in part, is because of the mentality of cutting each others throat to get a job. Once they get the job, then they have to do it...."whoops didn't realize setting materials would cost _that_ much.....better find a way to make more money." :laughing:


If that is the case you let the GC know BEFORE you start the next job.

How good of a tile setter can you be if you don't know how much thinset you need for wall tile?

When a sub gives me a price, i bid the job according to that price, if he wants more money, he needs to bring it up BEFORE the job starts, not after.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

bwalley said:


> If that is the case you let the GC know BEFORE you start the next job.
> 
> How good of a tile setter can you be if you don't know how much thinset you need for wall tile?
> 
> When a sub gives me a price, i bid the job according to that price, if he wants more money, he needs to bring it up BEFORE the job starts, not after.



Exactly, i've lost money a few times because of guys like that when trying out new subs. I'm used to "my guys" giving me a TOTAL out the door price...IF things come up after things are uncovered...like what my roofing subs would find, well then obviously nobody knew before hand, BUT it's in BOTH our contracts...mine to homie and sub to me that coveres unforseen circumstances. Here we're talking tile....by the time a project is ready for tile, there should be no hidden fee at all. There should be pictures/drawings/whatever of a pattern if need to and homie signs off on pattern/layout, and sub and i will walk through it step by step unless it's a basic shower surround which a retarded monkey could do, so long as they knew the right materials for applications 

I still say something is amiss here, too much drama for a "typical" shower surround and price increases.


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## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

Apparently the deal was that the HO was supposed to get the thin set, which is dumb. Several other things should be talked about and included in the future.

However, $5.00 a ft for shower work is ridicules to put it mildly. He is cheating himself. And I say that thinking that is only for installing just the tiles, too cheap. Of course everything else is extra. Labor for a basic 3x4 shower should start at about or just under 2k, plus all materials, plus any demo, plus any corner dishes, any plumbing work, etc. That same shower will usually cost about 3k with standard no frills tile and basic prep. 

At $5.00 a ft. to install just the tiles, I think you should go help him, buy him lunch and drive him home too.:laughing: WOW, that is cheap. Is he really good?

Jaz


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## Frank P (Nov 2, 2009)

So a 60 s/f tub and shower @ $5.00 s/f = $300.00 ? He supplies the setting materials and everything else as a sub? 

$5.00 s/f sounds like flat work prices, even then the minimum is $300.00

Sounds like its way too cheap and he doesnt have the margin in the job.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Once again, I'm calling bull sh*t and labelling this another hilarious contractor talk thread.

It's a wonderful thing to get $100 a square foot for whatever work you do. 

Now as always reality enters into it. During the last year I have been contacted at least 2-3 times every month from tile setters looking for work, often they have been from out of state, I think I've gotten calls from 1/2 the states in the union by now. I've also ran employement ads for carpenters and gotten a dozen tile setters looking to apply, and these are guys with more than 10 years as tile mechanics. 

Reality is in my opinion there are a crap load of tile setters, plumbers, electricians, framers etc... out of work. 

The only thing I'm saying is I don't think it would be too hard to find excellent tile setters at rates that would shock us all during these economic times. 

So when I see the posts about FIVE DOLLARS!!!!!!!! Why I wouldn't set up my tile saw for less then $1000 cash and a BJ!!!!!!

It's a bit of an eye roller.


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## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

Frank,

I think this thread is not about a tub surround, it is about a shower, big difference. 

Jaz


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## Frank P (Nov 2, 2009)

Yeah, I think my day is getting the better of me. Not like any of you guys would understand LOL


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## AtlRemodeling (Jan 23, 2008)

IHI said:


> I never said the work you did was hack...only your practices.
> 1. Having other contractors pull a permit for you- hack
> 2. NOT allowing subs to bid the work they will be called in to do and you thinking a "general" price covers everything- hack
> 3. Crying about a situation YOU could've 100% prevented yourself- hack
> ...



Since you seem to what to stick my business out at least you should again get *all *the information. Am I specifically licensed? No! Do I have a registered agent that I work with that is a close personal friend who is licensed? Yes. Is there a reason? Of course!

I started building houses at a very young age working as a superintendent for another contractor and did so for nearly 10 years. I eventually moved out on my own doing residential, commercial and retaining walls. I focused on retaining walls and did that exclusively for 8 years until a 40' high wall collapsed at a high school (it was discussed in a previous post IHI and since you seem to what to dig through every post of mine I am sure you can find it). The collapse and the ensuing 2+ years of law suits caused me to file bankruptcy.

In Georgia, you can not be a licensed contractor with a bankruptcy on file so does that make me a hack? Hell I could be a real hack, not permit anything and f-ck over customers right and left but instead I am doing the right thing by getting a registered agent. I have never advertised and every bit of my work comes from word-of-mouth.

Since I was exclusively doing hardscapes, most of the people in my rolledex are no longer working, changed numbers, etc. so we have been slowly building a team of subs who we can depend on. Have I called people in my area asking what to charge? You betcha! I called JF from this site and asked him about his fees for trim work. He is a trim and cabinet guy after all and I had a client that was also be interested in his services. 

Did I post a thread on CT looking for a framer/siding guy? Again you betcha! When I first started everything was pretty much done in house (very similar to you from reading your posts) but on this project we had a large addition to do to a home. Could I frame it with my help? Yes Could I do it in a time frame that suited the project? No. Thus I was trying to find someone qualified to do the job which we did, completed the job and already have another remodel for the same client lined up for the first of the year and meeting with one of her best friends next week to give a proposal for her basement.

Do I do everything 100% correct? Hell no (show me someone who does and I will gladly follow in their footsteps) but that was the intent of the OP. I am trying to get work orders, sub contracts, etc in order so that I do not run into problems as we expand not to "whines" about a subcontractor or his versus my pricing. I was simply asking how the tile guys price their work (total, SF, LF, etc) so that I can most effectively set up a system for my company.

FYI, I did discuss the shower with my tile installer prior to the bid going out to our client. I gave him exact measurements, tile layout, etc. Part of the OP states that each time he is giving me a price it included something the last bid did not. I had his price in place BEFORE we quoted the job to the client he just did not go to the job to see it personally. 

The only thing about this whole thing that pissed me off (other than your flame attack) was he asked the HO where the thinset was. The HO was not supplying materials except tile which she got at a good deal from his tile outlet center. The sub has always provided thinset and to ask the HO where any materials should set off anyone.

Again I say to you IHI that before you "get your knives out" get the whole story. You can either choose to be helpful or you can choose to be an internet blog troll. I think for the most part you should be more of the first and less of the second but if not that is your choosing. It will not bother me to hit the ignore button.

Oh and by the way your website link in your profile goes no where except "Server not found". Does that make you hackish?


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

Feel better?:laughing:

I'll remove the internet sig soon for ya, but i'd rather have a dead sig than a website chocked full of other's work touting it as my own Besides, i never planned on becoming a millionare in this trade...how many millionare carpenters do any of us now....so you see this is not the profession to become rich. I did not bother renewing my website because i dont need it, just as i am done officially with yellow pages, all of these medium's supply nothing but hack customers and tire kickers, i'm over them, and to be honest, i could give a chit if i ever measured another cold call job....because guys like you who operate/d illegal will beat my price anyhow, and folks calling out of the blue typically dont give two ****s about what they're getting...they just want low price, and sadly, that is'nt me.

Good luck, have fun Al.


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

JazMan said:


> Apparently the deal was that the HO was supposed to get the thin set, which is dumb. Several other things should be talked about and included in the future.
> 
> However, $5.00 a ft for shower work is ridicules to put it mildly. He is cheating himself. And I say that thinking that is only for installing just the tiles, too cheap. Of course everything else is extra. Labor for a basic 3x4 shower should start at about or just under 2k, plus all materials, plus any demo, plus any corner dishes, any plumbing work, etc. That same shower will usually cost about 3k with standard no frills tile and basic prep.
> 
> ...


WOW how much work do you get these days. I set and grout a "basic" shower in a bit more than 8 man hours another 1 to backer and you are saying $2000. Cool. need a Sub? 
Can you get me more than one of these sets a year?

Craig 

PM me with the next job:thumbup:


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

JazMan said:


> Apparently the deal was that the HO was supposed to get the thin set, which is dumb. Several other things should be talked about and included in the future.
> 
> However, $5.00 a ft for shower work is ridicules to put it mildly. He is cheating himself. And I say that thinking that is only for installing just the tiles, too cheap. Of course everything else is extra. *Labor for a basic 3x4 shower should start at about or just under 2k, plus all materials, plus any demo, plus any corner dishes, any plumbing work, etc*. That same shower will usually cost about 3k with standard no frills tile and basic prep.
> 
> ...


I guess Michigan is in better shape than everyone says it is, how much does that work out per ft2 for labor?


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

bwalley said:


> I guess Michigan is in better shape than everyone says it is, how much does that work out per ft2 for labor?


 
Why worry about how much per sq ft?? I never give prices based on square footage, ever. 

Its going to take x number of days to do the job. that number x my daily rate

Its going to cost this much for materails x markup

add these 2 numbers together and you got yourself a price.

Selling by the square foot gives customers a reason not to buy from you.
Everyone has heard of morons charging $5.00 a square foot to tile. 
Do I want to compete with these hacks - no thanks.


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## JazMan (Feb 16, 2007)

*I set and grout a "basic" shower in a bit more than 8 man hours another 1 to backer and you are saying $2000.

*What does that include?What method? Are you using a waterproofing product or method? Wall board? Ceiling? Mud the floor? Mastic or thin set on walls? What kind of tiles? Upstairs or downstairs? Did you count the time to go get the materials? 8-10 hours, I'd like to see that, and the resulting work. 

Jaz


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## PrecisionFloors (Jan 24, 2006)

It's funny and sad at the same time to see other contractors tear down another for getting a higher price.....good luck on your race to the bottom. 

To hear it from you, Mike, is very surprising. I'm sure in this economy people aren't as quick to pull the trigger on a gold plated ****ter either....doesn't mean you should be begrudged for pitching 'em though :whistling

You talk about reality. I bet a dollar to a donut the last 10 bathrooms you did could have been done cheaper.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

jarvis design said:


> Why worry about how much per sq ft?? I never give prices based on square footage, ever.
> 
> Its going to take x number of days to do the job. that number x my daily rate
> 
> ...


But, keep in mind lots (most) tile setters calculate a finally number off of computing it by the square foot and linear foot. They may come up with a final single number, but they got their mostly by square and linear pricing.


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## AtlRemodeling (Jan 23, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> But, keep in mind lots (most) tile setters calculate a finally number off of computing it by the square foot and linear foot. They may come up with a final single number, but they got their mostly by square and linear pricing.



This was all I was asking to begin with is how various tile guys get to their price. This was never about ripping the guy working for me or anyone else. I am trying to set up proper work orders and looking for the best way for that to be done based on the experience of others. No point in trying to re-invent the wheel. 

Thanks to all that posted informative posts.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

AtlRemodeling said:


> I am trying to set up proper work orders and looking for the best way for that to be done based on the experience of others. No point in trying to re-invent the wheel.


It's real simple Al, if your NOT going to have subs look at a job that you are putting together, you better realize you need to sell the job for at least twice what you THINK the "going rate is" for the simple fact your essentially putting words in somebody elses mouth. OR, you could do like the rest of us guys with less than 25 yrs of "construction experience do" when a job goes from being bid to hard numbers put to paper prior to contract, i call in all the guys that will be working on the job if i dont feel i can oversell (like when budgets are really constricted) this way there's no suprises....but what do i know, i'm just a dumb phuckstick with less expereince than you muhahahaha.

your asking for advice on the most basic principal of our work....yet you are touting yourself as knowing your stuff..interesting...VERY interesting. i hope when i get to as many yrs experience in the feild that you have, i dont start to revert too


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Mike Finley said:


> But, keep in mind lots (most) tile setters calculate a finally number off of computing it by the square foot and linear foot. They may come up with a final single number, but they got their mostly by square and linear pricing.


 
That is true. I guess as most of my work is complete renos, I have always gone with an "all-in" price. That being said, the stand alone tile jobs I have done have all been "all-in" as well.

When you do a quote for a bathroom do you give a total price or do you break it down? (I'm just curious)


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## Frank P (Nov 2, 2009)

I only use the S/F pricing as a rule of thumb, then I add for any extras and anything that looks like brain damage. 

We are usually multi-tasking the hell out of every job to stay on budget and on time, so I only quote the whole job. Breaking it down makes it look like "remodeling a la carte".


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

IHI said:


> It's real simple Al, if your NOT going to have subs look at a job that you are putting together, you better realize you need to sell the job for at least twice what you THINK the "going rate is" for the simple fact your essentially putting words in somebody elses mouth. OR, you could do like the rest of us guys with less than 25 yrs of "construction experience do" when a job goes from being bid to hard numbers put to paper prior to contract, i call in all the guys that will be working on the job if i dont feel i can oversell (like when budgets are really constricted) this way there's no suprises....but what do i know, i'm just a dumb phuckstick with less expereince than you muhahahaha.


I think in the last 4 years I've had a sub look at a job before we had a signed contract with the customers, maybe twice. But that's also because we are doing the same work over and over again and I have systems in place to calculate my subs costs pretty closely. 



jarvis design said:


> That is true. I guess as most of my work is complete renos, I have always gone with an "all-in" price. That being said, the stand alone tile jobs I have done have all been "all-in" as well.
> 
> When you do a quote for a bathroom do you give a total price or do you break it down? (I'm just curious)


Total price.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

jarvis design said:


> Why worry about how much per sq ft?? I never give prices based on square footage, ever.
> 
> Its going to take x number of days to do the job. that number x my daily rate
> 
> ...


I don't bid my jobs to clients by the square foot either but subs will either give me a square foot price or an all inclusive price, then I use my subs numbers to come up with my selling price to the client.

Trying to figure out how much per ft2 labor the guy is getting paid, 
*Labor for a basic 3x4 shower should start at about or just under 2k, plus all materials, plus any demo, plus any corner dishes, any plumbing work, etc*. 

The issue the OP had was the tile setter was continually bumping up his prices, *after the jobs had been started*, that is not the time to increase the price unless the scope of work has changed.

I have had subs pull this crap and I let them know that I will work with them if I can but that once I sell the job and the work begins it is not the time to try and get more money, and I have sent many a sub packing over the continual nickle and diming.


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## IHI (Dec 25, 2004)

Mike Finley said:


> I think in the last 4 years I've had a sub look at a job before we had a signed contract with the customers, maybe twice. But that's also because we are doing the same work over and over again and I have systems in place to calculate my subs costs pretty closely.
> 
> 
> 
> Total price.


Since we do keep alot of work in house (cept the work we cant do legally) i know what rates are since i know how long each aspect takes in a partitcular application, and based on the hundreds of jobs subs have done similar work...so usually i dont have subs on site, i know what these job would cost sub wise, i just upsell it to cover my butt. BUT, in circumstances that are out of the norm, I always bring the guys in so i'm not making blind assumptions...but again, we handle everything from footings to roof peaks and everything in between so we have alot more places for variables vs 1 room per say. You know what i'm getting at we've done plenty of bathrooms in cheap budget scope that i know what my plumber charges for all new fixtures/fixture changes...but truth be told, we've uncovered some crazy things that would'nt be covered in the original bid...but again, this is where change orders come in, and clauses in the contract are there to cover me and the subs butts. 

My only problem now is the OP who has been around this for as long as he supposedly has is trying asking newbie questions about the most basic aspect of contracting.


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## AtlRemodeling (Jan 23, 2008)

bwalley said:


> The issue the OP had was the tile setter was continually bumping up his prices, *after the jobs had been started*, that is not the time to increase the price unless the scope of work has changed.
> 
> .


Actually bwalley the issue was between jobs. In other words, I would go over the layout for the job we were bidding, the price was agreed upon and the work was done at that rate. The next time we were going over a job something additional would be included that was not included on the last job. Again the job would be bid at his rates and he would bill me at that rate. This repeated several times each time with something else being included. 

Never was it a problem with a difference between the bid price and the billed price. 

The issue with the thinset was not related to his supplying materials or the HO supplying materials as he has always supplied thinset and did on this job as well. He still has not been exactly clear on his reasons behind the thinset comment to the HO.


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

JazMan said:


> *I set and grout a "basic" shower in a bit more than 8 man hours another 1 to backer and you are saying $2000.
> 
> *What does that include?What method? Are you using a waterproofing product or method? Wall board? Ceiling? Mud the floor? Mastic or thin set on walls? What kind of tiles? Upstairs or downstairs? Did you count the time to go get the materials? 8-10 hours, I'd like to see that, and the resulting work.
> 
> Jaz



The Key term here is "*BASIC*" basic is no upgrades, no mortar bed, no roll-on water proofers, no schluter. this is what most builders want here in Omaha 
A "basic" shower would be one that has a shower base in place. 

Dens for the walls :thumbsup:. 

Thin set for the mortar. 

Strait set or brick 12 x 12 3/16 joints. 

Owner/ gc has the tile and grout already there. 

No demo 

Walls are ready to set backer. 

I charge $850 for the set and $150 for the backer (dens and screws included) I am in and out in a short day and a morning. as far as being upstairs or not it dosen't matter, a "basic" shower does not use a wet saw enough to make any issues. with my tarping methods and the trailer setup and the tool orginization. i can be installing in under15 min. 

I could make you a Tutorial Video:thumbsup: what should I charge:smartass:.

Got one of a not so basic bathroom Video but that isn't the point. 
Here is my you tube channel and you can see for your self if I am kind to do things Half assed. http://www.youtube.com/user/mintfreshman.

Craig


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

> *Labor for a basic 3x4 shower should start at about or just under 2k*, plus all materials, plus any demo, plus any corner dishes, any plumbing work, etc.


Says WHO???

I did subcontract tile installations for (among others) one in particular tile store for fourteen years. For fourteen of those fourteen years the owner hounded me for a price list. I never gave him one. Why? Because he had proven time and time again to me that he was in it for himself and that he was a money-grubbing idiot.

He never could look at a job and pick out the obstacles and price a job accordingly or fairly. 

Each and every job I do is different. There are no duplicates. But then again I rarely run into a shower that is only 3' X 4'. Those are awful small showers.

I use Schluter Systems products. This is the only way to go in my opinion and Schluter Systems produces a state of the art shower facility with less manual labor than any other erectable system that doesn't use slab walls.

My basic charge is $200 per square foot of footprint. I'll do most anything the customer wants for that $200 as far as wall tile and ceiling, wall features, and complete tiled receptor. That price does not include tile or grout. That price (also) does not include benches, niches, corner shelves, soap dishes, or more than four holes in the walls for the water controls and features. (The one I'm doing now has 22 holes in the walls at $25 per hole.)

For this price I deal with stupid plumbers that attach my drain pipe tight to the floor joists, stupid carpenters that leave random reversed crowned lumber in the walls and build out-of square showers, stupid electricians that don't know a vapor-proof light fixture from cheese soup, and dumb-ass designers that think it's OK to mix 1/8" thick tile with 3/8" thick tile on the same wall.

And some of you guys want a fixed price for now and forever? BALONEY!

I have no idea where so many of you guys are finding cookie-cutter showers. They just don't exist anywhere that I know of. 

Each job is different (did I say that already) and each job brings new surprises and joy for a tile installer.

You guys that won't let your tile subs look at a job before he prices it are dealing with installers that don't know how to look out for themselves. Have them call me - I can fix that pretty damned quick.

This store owner I spoke of wanted to be able to close a sale on his showroom floor without ever seeing the work site. THAT is to no one's benefit but his own. I can appreciate where he is coming from but won't participate in the foolery. You tile sub guys reading this that don't take the time to look at each and every job before you quote it are screwing yourselves and you know it.

Most of my quotes are done from plans before a foundation hole is ever dug in the ground and I make it perfectly clear at that time to any prospect that my first quote is for budgetary purposes only and that things may change when the sticks go up.

Once I have secured the contract I visit the jobsite many times in an effort to head off any problems relating to my participation down the road. We all work together with a happy customer being everyone's ultimate goal.

It took me a long time to train these generals and electricians and plumbers around here.:sad:


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## charimon (Nov 24, 2008)

Bud about 100 mile east and you will find 85% cookie cutter showers actually more like tub surrounds. They are all the same and they are bread and butter work. I make as good hourly on these as I do setting on Eagle run and Regency here in Omaha. the reason is they are Basic.


One of the Benifits coming from a location like Hastings (I grew up on a prosperous farm in Scottsbluff) is that builders are men who have built their reputations over the last 20+ years. and craftsmen are known through the WHOLE community.. here the builders are corporations Celeberty, Harthstone, and no one even knows tho the installers are. You have a stagnate (when compared to Lincoln or Omaha) population who takes stock in these reputations. In Scottsbluff a home cannot be considered "fine" unless it is all brick and if it is not built by Xxxxxxx, or Yyyyyyyy then it is not top notch. I am Guessing Hastings, Grand Island and Kearney all have their own metrics. The farmer/ gentry who builds his house, waits till he can afford it (often times cash) and then wants nothing but the Best in it. That is, sadly, rarely the case here. You have managed to carve a niche in a unique market and that is great. It is not the case in most urban settings, and that is why

"I have no idea where so many of you guys are finding cookie-cutter showers. They just don't exist anywhere that I know of. "



Craig


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## Bud Cline (Feb 12, 2006)

Craig I know you are correct which is why I stay here. I basically do nothing but "whole-house" projects (more tile than carpet). One of the builders I work with is celebrating his forty-second year of home building, another has been doing it for thirty years, another twenty-five years. Fly-by-night-builders are are quickly discovered here and don't last very long.

On average my projects take about eight weeks, the last one, I was on-site for most of six months off and on. The next one is being erected now and will be ready when I finish the one I am working on now. Don't know how long it will last but I have stayed busy in this area for sixteen years with little down time. I don't advertise other than my name is on my trucks but no phone number, they seek me out. I use yard signs and they are my only other form of advertising. I like it!


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Bud Cline said:


> You guys that won't let your tile subs look at a job before he prices it are dealing with installers that don't know how to look out for themselves. Have them call me - I can fix that pretty damned quick.


Not true at all. If it was the case my tile setters would present evidence of resistance instead of appreciation.


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## Pearce Services (Nov 21, 2005)

My first tile jobs were bid at the "going rate", which at the time was $3/sf, it didnt matter if it was a big job, or small job, lots of cuts, or a large square room, I lost on most jobs because i didnt cover my costs. Lessens learned....

So now I use a spread sheet for all jobs, it includes production rates, based on Manhours/square foot, it is adjusted for complex patterns, materials, room size, and number of cuts. This spread sheet although more profitable, was still costing me money on certain types of projects, So I added for thresholds, fixtures, hanging the walls, waterproofing, caulking, niches, benches, etc. 

I now have a rather detailed way to cover myself so that I do not loose on any jobs, unless I make a mistake. My point is that your tile sub was giving away profit, and maybe even loosing money because he carried no provisions for cetain things. Good for him to realize that he needs to be compensated for all things that cost him time or money.

It sounds like he is evolving his pricing to stay profitable. If his pricing is up front, and you know before he starts, you accept his price, then there is no foul. If he starts to cry about needing extra for certain things, you need to refer to your agreement to see if it is justified. 

Your installer including Thinset in his price should be automatic, but it should also be included within the total cost of the job, not a cost of providing labor that in turn must be absorbed by the labor on the project. Using someone elses opinion on what adhesives to use, and how long that product has been sitting on a shelf, sounds like a very bad business practice.


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