# Sub want to negotiate price AFTER the job is done.



## NC-SC GC (Jan 17, 2008)

Had a brick mason quote a job, $350.00 per thousand, he finished the job and sends me a bill for $1300.00 a thousand, no written agreement for stupid reasons. He claims he can charge more since I'm getting paid more than he though by my customer, not sure what that has to do with anything. I gave him a $3k draw 3 weeks ago, now that they have finally finished (it took them almost 8 weeks to lay 12,500 brick) also did not mention they crawled in and out of the windows of the house and f'd up all the drywall under the windows and the window sill's. I'm thinking of telling the guy to take me to court, if I pay him what we initially agreed upon he will still take me to court, if I don't pay him he will take me to court, the only difference is his money will be used to pay the legal costs. 

This is not the way I do business, I was just so busy with to much going on at one time and just told him to get the job done. I know I should have had him sign a standard sub agreement.

I guess I could pay him what we agreed on and have him sign a lien waver as well as a paid in full invoice (if he will do it) any ideas?


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

WOW!! .$35 a brick if my math is correct. I wouldnt even think of getting out of bed for that price.

Maybe thats why he wants more now? Either way, pay him what you originally planned. Then let him take you to court if he doesnt like it. 

Then as a side note, find out why he crawled in and out of windows. If its for a stupid reason as its closer than the door, bill him for the new drywall.

If its because you didnt leave him keys or a way to get in, then leave it alone.


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

NC-SC said:


> Had a brick mason quote a job, $350.00 per thousand, he finished the job and sends me a bill for $1300.00 a thousand, no written agreement for stupid reasons. He claims he can charge more since I'm getting paid more than he though by my customer, not sure what that has to do with anything. I gave him a $3k draw 3 weeks ago, now that they have finally finished (it took them almost 8 weeks to lay 12,500 brick) also did not mention they crawled in and out of the windows of the house and f'd up all the drywall under the windows and the window sill's. I'm thinking of telling the guy to take me to court, if I pay him what we initially agreed upon he will still take me to court, if I don't pay him he will take me to court, the only difference is his money will be used to pay the legal costs.
> 
> This is not the way I do business, I was just so busy with to much going on at one time and just told him to get the job done. I know I should have had him sign a standard sub agreement.
> 
> I guess I could pay him what we agreed on and have him sign a lien waver as well as a paid in full invoice (if he will do it) any ideas?


he probably talked to the homeowner in which you gave a bill to and saw that you tacked on a copious amount to what he is getting paid and he thinks that isn't fair because its his work not yours. But an agreed price is an agreed price.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

When you say, "quote a job", I assume you have something in writing? I am guessing you do not, so basically you thought you had 4375.00 in the job, and now he wants 16,250.00. My guess is that his bill is closer to what it should be, which has nothing to do with what he said he would do it for. Lawyer up and good luck, because if he is smart (doubtful), the property will be under lien. And backcharge him for any damage done.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

> WOW!! .$35 a brick if my math is correct. I wouldnt even think of getting out of bed for that price.


Tell me about! Sounds like the guy has no clue on how to quote jobs:no::no:


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## Susan Betz (Feb 21, 2007)

NC-SC said:


> no written agreement for stupid reasons...
> 
> This is not the way I do business


Uh... I hate pointing out the obvious...

so I won't.


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## Floordude (Aug 30, 2007)

Pay him and each of his helpers hourly for the work. Then pay Unemployment, Workmans Comp, Social Security, and FICA on the wages, and give them a W-2. Then tell him to pound sand.:clap:


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

BattleRidge said:


> he probably talked to the homeowner in which you gave a bill to and saw that you tacked on a copious amount to what he is getting paid and he thinks that isn't fair because its his work not yours. But an agreed price is an agreed price.


I hate that, the home owner talks to the plumber and sees hes getting payed 6k for the job and the GC charges him 7k for plumbing and everything hits the fan. The HO thinks hes getting ed out of a grand and the plumber thinks hes getting ed out of a grand.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Yet another reason to put a bottom line price on the project and not an itemized bid.


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

NC-SC said:


> Had a brick mason quote a job, $350.00 per thousand, he finished the job and sends me a bill for $1300.00 a thousand, no written agreement for stupid reasons. He claims he can charge more since I'm getting paid more than he though by my customer....


Didn't have to read the rest, that's far enough

1) He agreed to a price (negotiated)
2) What you got for the job is none of his business
3) After the job is done, it's called renegotiating (...or reneging on the agreement)
4) Reneging after he sees what the H/O paid is super-douchy...actually negotiating/pricing/bidding the next job better is the answer
5) Pay him what you agreed
6) Never do this w/o a signed contract again


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

I actually had a simple situation not that long ago , where the GC seemed sketch to me, I sided a small buliding for 4,500 and the HO came out and showed me the GCs bill and he charged 8000 for my labor, and then I charged 2100 for the sheetrock and he charge 4200 for it. I thot it was rediculous, I told him that I thot he was ripping them off and people like that made us all look bad. I probably won't be working with him much anymore.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Well, Battleridge, I suppose you could get the work without the GC; cut the middleman out, as it were, right? Otherwise, what business of yours is it what the GC charges?


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

Tscarborough said:


> Well, Battleridge, I suppose you could get the work without the GC; cut the middleman out, as it were, right? Otherwise, what business of yours is it what the GC charges?


I agree, what the GC charges and what the HO pays isnt the subs business. It took time for the GC to hire the sub, paperwork, etc. The GC needs to be payed for that. It may not be worth double your price but thats between the HO and GC.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

It is worth exactly what the client agrees to pay for it. Material costs, labor costs, subcontractor costs have meaning only for the GC, not the owner.


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

I don't know about you guys, I have one price structure, everyone gets the same since Architects, Home Owners, Engineers and G.C.'s call me.

When I get the job, 

If the architect secures the deal a discount is negotiated and paid to them
If the G.C. secures the deal a discount is negotiated and they pay me
If the engineer secures the deal a discount is discussed and either paid or applied towards future referrals (lot of back and forth with quite a few)
If the H.O. secures the deal they pay the full price since I end up hand holding for a lot of items.

Quit bitching about what the G.C. makes, he's orchistrating the whole kit and kaboddle, hand holding, scheduling, paying insurance, paying phone bills and most importantly getting you more work.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

Tscarborough said:


> It is worth exactly what the client agrees to pay for it. Material costs, labor costs, subcontractor costs have meaning only for the GC, not the owner.


Its the same as walmart, they buy some piece of crap for $0.000032 and sell it for $4.99. Are you going to go bicth about getting screwed???????


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

Chris Johnson said:


> Quit bitching about what the G.C. makes, he's orchistrating the whole kit and kaboddle, hand holding, scheduling, paying insurance, paying phone bills and most importantly getting you more work.


 
:thumbsup:


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## wackman (Nov 14, 2005)

That's one of the things I love about subs over employees. 

This guys gave you a quote based on price per quantity. I wouldn't let him just raise his price if things didn't change from the original scope. 

This is where you say "this is all you get and you'll be signing a paid in full doc to get it". 

If he doesn't like it let him take it to court.


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

Tscarborough said:


> Well, Battleridge, I suppose you could get the work without the GC; cut the middleman out, as it were, right? Otherwise, what business of yours is it what the GC charges?


Well I can actually it just came around that this was open, and my other crews were doing well. If I had to find my own project I could have. I am a GC on a few projects I know how it works and I know when someone is taking advantage of a HO that doesn't understand. You may be the best GC around and do amazing work but if you are going to straight take advantage of people then I find it hard to respect you for what you do. I know how much a GC should make and how much it costs to live. When a homeowner asks if that money is all what I billed for I expect them to tell the homeowner what I billed. Not that Im getting paid 8 grand and that my pricing is rediculous. Especially when the Contractor was paid a fee at the beginning of the project and got two more payments that were to be his only proFit on the job. His agreement was that the invoices would be straight across, with the homeowners, and when a GC does send in invoices a 10 to 20 percent addition is legit, but 200% bills? Thats called being an ******* and taking advantage of people, why? "because he is a general, its his job" well then I hope you stop bitching about inspectors because its their JOB to make sure everything is perfect, or home depot, because they make more money then you and you wouldn't understand. When things are out of line you just have to admit it man, wether or not he is a GC and you are as well. Notice I didn't bring the issue up with the HO, just the GC, when I was getting their finger pointed at me for ripping them off. I don't really care I guess some people just have ethics, and some don't/


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## Chris Johnson (Apr 19, 2007)

You get jobs based on what the market will bear

Should the average 'siding' guy charge more than you, the GC quotes the customer XXX, customer accepts and you come along and do the job cheaper than what was originally allowed for should the GC credit the customer? No, the customer agreed to the original amount. Should your work be faulty in the future the GC still is responsible for the repair, whether you do the repair or not.

Let's say he is under contract with the HO and in your instance he made off like a bandit, at the same time perhaps his concrete went up $ 15.00 yd and the rebar just went up $ 125 per ton, he's under contract, he has no right to go back to the customer and ask for additional compensation since his costs have just skyrocketed on those items. It's checks and balances, he looks like he got rich off the siding, but may have to eat something else in short order for unforeseens.


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## nap (Jan 27, 2008)

what do you think the HO would say if you walked up and said you wanted 370% of the agreed upon price?

You had a deal with the brickie and that is what you owe him (minus the backcharge for the damage he caused whether he had a key access or not. that is irrelevent. If he screwed things up, it is on him for the costs to repair).

It is not a smart sub that talks with the HO about pricing. If a sub believes the charges are straight across to the HO, he is either brand new to the game, naive, or stupid. That is not how things work.

I do not agree with gouging, which may have happened BUT it is none of the subs business. He had a contract and that is what he is due, PERIOD. The fact he undercharged is his fault.

I'm betting it will take you much less than the nearly $12k difference to fight this so I would head to court without hesitation. 

If you are really into negotiating, depending on how much (value) damage he caused, you could use that as a tool to leverage against what he wants to increase his charges to. If he screwed up a lot, it could work out to be about even:clap:


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## Custom Builder (Feb 10, 2008)

Interesting. I pay about .95 per brick labor. We make everyone put in their bid in writing. We make them sign a contract that no change orders will be paid unless we sign it beforehand. I recently had my favorite mason bill me an extra $500 for propane. It has been freezing here for months, but he said it was just one of those unexpected things. I asked him what he expected for February in Nebraska. In the end I settled for half and will no longer use him. 

If I were in your shoes I would ask him to agree on the going rate for masons in your area. Save yourself the hassle of a lein. Suck it up and don't ever use him again. 

When the subs start busting my balls about how much I make I tell them to price GL insurance for a medium size builder. Stand there and let them do the math on what it costs to have 2 600K models sit for 2 years.


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

Right on,... Battleridge! I would have done the same.

NC-NC, GC; If the issue goes to court, most "rational"/common sense, as most of us know it, goes out the window.......

If the sub has referenced the up-charge somehow, say, on his invoice or attached explanation, your okay. However, should there be nothing in writing, the sub can & most likely will subpoena the HO and all contractual doc's that will reviel your charges to the HO. The court will probably go with an established "fair rate", (local going rate). and make a decision.

IMHO; If you knew the guy underbid, and you gouged the HO, I would pay the man a fair price for his work and make ammends to your customer.....They say a disgruntled customer will share their dismay nine times more than a happy customer......and then there's karma dude!


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## NC-SC GC (Jan 17, 2008)

Ok, I should have mentioned a few things, the HO did not talk with the mason as the mason does not speak English and the HO does not speak Spanish, also the Ho has been OOT for a few weeks doing the convention circuit. $300 to $370 per thousand is fairly standard in this area, that is just labor, I supplied everything else, possibly that is the huge difference in price with others. The amount agreed upon was $350 per thousand for the brick, this was not a brick only job it's a 100k garage addition so the brick was noted on the contract which is not itemized, the HO was given a turn key price. I have already corrected the damage caused by his guys and for the most part I rarely do a back charge.


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## mastertrimmer (Aug 19, 2007)

NC-SC GC.
Pay him the agreed amount then hand him a bill for the damages in the amount that would cover his re-negotiated price, then find a new sub that can price properly and have respect for a GC and the way they charge a customer.

And battleridge if you were a sub of mine and you told a home owner that I was overcharging and ripping them off you'd be history!! Never do work for me again.


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## srb (Feb 9, 2008)

Seems to me the dispute should resolve itself. What bothers me is the unethical chatter of the mason .H/o almost always ask about $ if thier income is under what ,170 ,200k a year.After that they hardly say anything to you.(sub)I tell h/o that i dont know for shure,and thats the truth.A good sub should redirect questions back to primary contracter.One good gc can keep a sub busy,not many h/o's can.I remember on contract a remodeler had for me that had some clause about talking about priceing to others involved and fines.Seems like a good idea to keep that type of uncomfortable situation from occurring.


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## BuiltByMAC (Mar 11, 2006)

NC-SC, you didn't have a written agreement - have fun arguing. I wonder what your "stupid reason" was and how badly you're regretting it now.

A sub should never discuss price with a HO, they have no direct relationship. The sub works for the GC and his only concern should be that the GC pay him what they've contracted. Talking with a HO about the GC's price is unethical and underhanded. If the sub doesn't like the price he bid the job for, too *****ing bad. It's not the GC's problem that the sub doesn't know how to bid.

As for BattleRidge, "you know how much a GC should make and how much it costs to live." Yah, all houses cost the same, everyone has the same alimony, the same bills, everyone wants the same standard of living. Sorry dude, this is America, land of capitalism, some folks *like* living well. If they can find themselves customers to pay for that lifestyle, that's pretty much the goal of a capitalist business.

If, as a sub, you don't like what the GC is charging *his* customer (which is NONE of your business), again... too *****ing bad. Go find your own jobs.

Mac


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## srb (Feb 9, 2008)

srb said:


> Seems to me the dispute should resolve itself. What bothers me is the unethical chatter of the mason .H/o almost always ask about $ if thier income is under what ,170 ,200k a year.After that they hardly say anything to you.(sub)I tell h/o that i dont know for shure,and thats the truth.A good sub should redirect questions back to primary contracter.One good gc can keep a sub busy,not many h/o's can.I remember on contract a remodeler had for me that had some clause about talking about priceing to others involved and fines.Seems like a good idea to keep that type of uncomfortable situation from occurring.


 Why did i think that???? I'm going to work now..


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

NC-SC said:


> Ok, I should have mentioned a few things, the HO did not talk with the mason as the mason does not speak English and the HO does not speak Spanish


Then how did the mason know how much you charged? Not that it matters what you charged because it was non of his buisness anyway.


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

In that case....do as Floordude said......that's the most fail-safe way through this IMO...

Sorry....Where did I get the impression the HO & mason conversed?

I dissagree with the apparent majority PC based ethics on the over-charging issue.....Yes, as a GC I'm entitled to a fair management fee, say 20% for a small operation, (it may be 10% on a larger type project),....Knowingly witholding facts is just another form of lying.....If I were the sub, I would have to re-think working for a GC that gouges people.....What's he gonna do to me down the road? Life's too short to deal with that nonesense.


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## mastertrimmer (Aug 19, 2007)

A sub should not go to the GC's customer and thow him under the bus by saying that he is being overcharged. So what if the sub charges 2grand and the GC tells the H/O 4 g's. If the GC can get it god bless him.


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## ultimatetouch (May 27, 2006)

BattleRidge said:


> I actually had a simple situation not that long ago , where the GC seemed sketch to me, I sided a small buliding for 4,500 and the HO came out and showed me the GCs bill and he charged 8000 for my labor, and then I charged 2100 for the sheetrock and he charge 4200 for it. I thot it was rediculous, I told him that I thot he was ripping them off and people like that made us all look bad. I probably won't be working with him much anymore.


You agreed to do the job for a set price. You shouldnt even be concerned with how much the GC is charging. A deal is a deal. Your logic makes no sense. Its amazing how many duch bags think like you. If you dont like what your making be a big boy and get your own jobs. Dont be a jealous crap. Nobody forced you to do the work.


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## NC-SC GC (Jan 17, 2008)

I guess I have to clear up a few more things, I never said the sub spoke to the HO, and I know for a fact he did not, some one else said they thought the mason spoke to the HO, it was speculation and was not correct. As far as the GC goes, that is me, I have the contract with the HO and I am the GC for the project, what I charge for a job has nothing to do with what the sub is being paid.
Brick .28 each
Sand .12 each
Mortar .06 each
Labor .35 each
Total per brick .81 ea , if you want to figure it as a turn key job, on this project I supplied all the brick, sand and irons, he supplied the mortar and the labor.


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## excellencee (Feb 1, 2007)

Last year I bid a job for a new GC that I hadn't worked for in the past. We were introduced by the plumber. After the rough, as I was counting plugs etc., I realized that I forgot to include the office and a few other things in my bid. I didn't come back to the GC for what I missed. I didn't go after the HO for it as an extra. I ate it, when I give a price I honor that price. Now I do spell out, room by room, how many plugs switches etc. so an extra is an extra. I screwed up...end of story. On the next house the GC asked why the price was different so I explained. I now do work for this GC without him asking for a bid. I guess a little trust and honesty goes a long way.


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

:thumbsup:


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

NC-SC said:


> He claims he can charge more since I'm getting paid more than he though by my customer,






NC-SC said:


> Ok, I should have mentioned a few things, the HO did not talk with the mason as the mason does not speak English and the HO does not speak Spanish,.


Again, how did your mason know what you were charging?


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## d-rez (May 16, 2007)

Regarding the sub getting paid THEN taking you to court: always always always when you give the final check, make the sub sign a final release. If he does not sign, then neither do you.


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

Was the sub a illegal?


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## nadonailer (Nov 15, 2005)

excellencee said:


> Last year I bid a job for a new GC that I hadn't worked for in the past. We were introduced by the plumber. After the rough, as I was counting plugs etc., I realized that I forgot to include the office and a few other things in my bid. I didn't come back to the GC for what I missed. I didn't go after the HO for it as an extra. I ate it, when I give a price I honor that price. Now I do spell out, room by room, how many plugs switches etc. so an extra is an extra. I screwed up...end of story. On the next house the GC asked why the price was different so I explained. I now do work for this GC without him asking for a bid. I guess a little trust and honesty goes a long way.


Attaboy! That's the way we do it, too. I take care of my subs and they take care of me. I have lost money to pay a sub what I owed them. And as far as my profit, that's my business and mine alone. I'm taking ALL THE RISK! My labor burden, overhead, GL, WC, etc... are enormous compared to my subs. The good (smart) ones realize this and in turn respect the GC's, and they get work without having to submit competitive bids. So we all win. Especially the customers.


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## 6stringmason (May 20, 2005)

Custom Builder said:


> I recently had my favorite mason bill me an extra $500 for propane. It has been freezing here for months, but he said it was just one of those unexpected things. I asked him what he expected for February in Nebraska. In the end I settled for half and will no longer use him.


Seems a bit excessive over $250. He couldnt have been that good if you're going to let your favorite mason go over $250?


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

It sounds like the HO doesn't want anyone to make money on this. They buy the materials to get them at cost, and want the GC to pass the sub at cost? The GC may have weeks invested in getting this project with the HO. Where's the profit if not in marking up the contract with the sub? 

I wouldn't assume that getting yelled at by one HO means that you would get yelled at by every HO that this GC contracts with.

IMO nap has a good take on the business relationships. You're a sub & they contracted with the GC. Just say "You need to talk with the GC about this".

Dave


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## Brock (Dec 16, 2007)

BattleRidge said:


> I actually had a simple situation not that long ago , where the GC seemed sketch to me, I sided a small buliding for 4,500 and the HO came out and showed me the GCs bill and he charged 8000 for my labor, and then I charged 2100 for the sheetrock and he charge 4200 for it. I thot it was rediculous, I told him that I thot he was ripping them off and people like that made us all look bad. I probably won't be working with him much anymore.


Typical idiotic sub mentality. Your only overhead is the airplane glue that you sniff. Maybe you out to pay the GC's overhead. This is one of the many reasons why we don't use scumbag subs anymore.


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## Kaiser (Jan 22, 2008)

OH FOR THE LOVE OF CHEESE!!!!!!!!

You bid a job, work for what you bid and move on. What the HO thinks and what the GC makes is needless B.S. filling your brain when you should be thinking about what to charge on the next one.


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## srb (Feb 9, 2008)

This thread is wonderful,its allready worth more in humor and insight than the brick job itself was.Well,maybe. Mr. administrater please dont close this thread!


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

Floordude said:


> If he doesn't speak a lick of english, why the hell is his illegal ass, even on your jobsite. He gets hurt, I guess your not out anything, or are you!!! You know the guy has no workmans comp or general liability insurance!!
> 
> Pay the guy by the hour and pay his comp, FICA, unemployment, along with Social Security, and then pray to god, they don't audit you for the stolen SS#, because you know good and well he is not DBA'ed


:thumbsup:


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

BattleRidge said:


> I said that I didn't tell the HO, they came to me and I went to the GC.


So, you were working and they just waled up to you and stuck the invoice in your face and you had no choice but to look at it? There was no conversation before they showed you? 

First of all, if there was a conversation with the HO starting to talk about the GC's price and they had some concerns, you should've stopped them right their in their tracks and said that you don't want to have this conversation with them. 

If you knew that they were coming out to show you the GC's invoice, you should've stopped them right there never looked at it, and by you looking at it, your a fool and went behind the GC's back and you should've been thrown off the job.




> How much a GC makes is none of my business. When things get pointed at me, it does become my business.


Your right, what the GC makes is none of your buisness, and No, it doesn't become your buisness. The second the HO started talking to you about the GC, you should've cut it right then and there. You made it your buisness by talking to them and looking at the GC's invoice.



> When people are being deceived, I am not going to be involved in a scam. I have a good reputation as a GC and my sub crews are excellent. I am not going to end that so a GC can pull down 45 grand on a small garage that goes up in a month.


Did the GC hold a gun to your head and tell you to work for him and talk to his clients and look at his invoices? Surely you could've avoided the conversation and them showing you the invoice from the start, but you didn't. You've got your nose in the HO's buisness and the GC's buisness now and you now know what the GC is making on the job. How is what he's making any of your buisness? Why don't you just close your mouth and stop bitching and getting involved in everyone's buisness and never work for a GC again and just do your own work? 



> I would like to emphasis the fact to master trimmer that I did not contract or say anything to the HO.


Yes, but you let them contact you and let them show you the GC's invoice. Your first and second mistake. 

If you choose to be a sub for a GC and your concerned about your reputation and GC's ripping people off, then don't ever work for them again. The GC's price is still none of your buisness. You sound like your pissed because he made money on the job, maybe your price was to low and your mad because the GC sold the job for a better price. If you were the GC, you could've made more money.


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## GSE (Aug 24, 2007)

Brickie said:


> Tell me about! Sounds like the guy has no clue on how to quote jobs:no::no:


And the GC had no clue, how important a signed contract is. the GC should of noticed there was something wrong with a price tht low, and bassed on the offer, if i was the judge in this case, i would award the mason the sdditional money, based on the attempt of the GC to get work done below value. I would pay to see the judge rule in this case.


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

wouldn't it be ironic to find out that the OP is continuously attempting to renegotiate prices with his subs?


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## MessanaBrothers (Feb 13, 2008)

First problem I noticed right away is that you agreed on a price with him? does that mean you have a written contract or just verbal? 

If its a written contract then pay him what he quoted and be done with it, if he fights with you more tell him to sue you. You'll win, and as an FYI make sure on all your contracts from now on you sign you include some kind of wording that will make your sub liable for all attorney fees if you win the case at the very least. Not to mention the same with payment from your client. 

If its just a verbal agreement, this guy is even more screwed and I would tell him that straight to his face cause he'll never win in a court of law with nothing in writing, and even in writing doesn't mean anythign these days with lawyers. 

And as far as how much your making, HAHAHHAHA why should anyone be faulted for being smart enough to make whatever money they are. they agreed to it, so tough ???? LOL 


A GC we did work for owes us $950,000.00 for a project we did, its been 2.5 years since they where supposed to make that final payment and we haven't seen a penny of it yet. Been to court and even with written contracts it doesn't mean anything so now its going to arbitration in march and hopefully soon I can relax and not have that gut wrenching feeling in my stomach every single day. And thats just one GC, there's plenty more who play games over and over with smaller subs. Walsh Construction here in chicago has put many smaller subs out of buisness by not paying and playing the waiting game in court. If there's one thing I've learned, get EVERYTHING in writing before you do anything cause even the guys you have been doing work with for a long time may screw you at some point.


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## BattleRidge (Feb 9, 2008)

Joe Carola said:


> So, you were working and they just waled up to you and stuck the invoice in your face and you had no choice but to look at it? There was no conversation before they showed you?
> 
> First of all, if there was a conversation with the HO starting to talk about the GC's price and they had some concerns, you should've stopped them right their in their tracks and said that you don't want to have this conversation with them.
> 
> ...


Yeah haven't even followed the arguement your just throwing a temper tantrum. I already said in my posts that I got my price, which was good, I have no issues with what I got paid. Tell me, because I would love to hear it. You are working 20 ft away from where the HO lives. They come out and tell you that they want this changed or that, or they decided to do this on a regular basis. When I'm walking around caulking and the HO walks up, like they have 3 days a week for the past month and a half with a piece of paper I had no idea what was coming or what was on the sheet of paper. It could have been a materials receipt, it could have been another diagram of how they wanted their climbing wall. And BAM she lays it on you. I know you would have told her to "Shut the **** up" or maybe to "stop bitching" or something like that. Mebbe even told her husband that he's a douche, that seems to be popular here too. I said. I don't really know, I'll talk to the GC. And yes he didn't mark up the products because that was their deal, along with the invoices. He gave them a contracting fee, that was plenty that would have covered everything on the project. 

Like I said your not setting a good argument or putting yourself in my shoes. Just throwing a a fit. I don't really want to argue about it anymore, my business does fine, and there hasn't been a problem in years. I obviously have no idea what im doing. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Cole (Aug 27, 2004)

MessanaBrothers said:


> A GC we did work for owes us *$950,000.00* for a project we did, its been 2.5 years since they where supposed to make that final payment and we haven't seen a penny of it yet.


Damn, how the hell do you sleep at night?


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## MessanaBrothers (Feb 13, 2008)

LOL, alot of nights you don't. 

We are running into this problem more and more with GC's and especially chicago public schools.


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## GSE (Aug 24, 2007)

Cole said:


> Damn, how the hell do you sleep at night?


A lot of guys shoot themself, they fail got get progresss payments on a timley schedule, after 10 days went without money you should of been backing up the trailer an starting the legal action. 

On a contract that size, I am sure you had an attorney draft it, why din't he take action?


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## Joe Carola (Jun 15, 2004)

BattleRidge said:


> Yeah haven't even followed the arguement your just throwing a temper tantrum.


You think I threw a temper tantrum from my post. You sound like a school girl. You haven't got me riled up at all.





> I already said in my posts that I got my price, which was good, I have no issues with what I got paid. Tell me, because I would love to hear it. You are working 20 ft away from where the HO lives. They come out and tell you that they want this changed or that, or they decided to do this on a regular basis. When I'm walking around caulking and the HO walks up, like they have 3 days a week for the past month and a half with a piece of paper I had no idea what was coming or what was on the sheet of paper. It could have been a materials receipt, it could have been another diagram of how they wanted their climbing wall. And BAM she lays it on you.


So, out of all that, you didn't see it coming, fine. You still ran over to the GC bitching and moaning about what he charged. It still none of your buisness. Also, if I give a price to the GC and the HO comes running over to me 3 days a week asking this and that changed, I look and then stop and then call the GC and go over everything and then give him a price on any change the HO wants. That simple!




> I know you would have told her to "Shut the **** up" or maybe to "stop bitching" or something like that. Mebbe even told her husband that he's a douche, that seems to be popular here too.


Now, that was ridiculous to even say something like that, who's having a temper tantrum. Where did you even get the idea that I would ever talk to a customer like that? Obviously you would lower yourself to that level and do that just by even thinking about talking like that to a customer, especially the GC's customer.




> Like I said your not setting a good argument or putting yourself in my shoes.


I have put myself in your shoes and told you what I would've done. Read again.



> Just throwing a a fit.


How could you even possibly make me throw a fit. You're a little to sensitive now aren't you. School girls throw fits.



> I don't really want to argue about it anymore, my business does fine, and there hasn't been a problem in years. I obviously have no idea what im doing. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


Don't doubt that you have a good buisness, but one thing you should change so you don't get your ba!!s in an uproar, *stop working for GC's and worrying about what they charge the customer, or would you be happier knowing what they make on you before you start the job so you don't have a temper tantrum.....*


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

GSE said:


> if i was the judge in this case, i would award the mason the sdditional money


If I was the judge Id throw his illegal ass back across the border. :furious:


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

Brock; Actually a sub typically has far more overhead than a GC.....and is much more stable than alot of GC's....especially when it comes to residential and home building.

I'm a GC as well as a sub.

As a subcontractor I typically owned a shop/yard and had hundreds of thousands of $ in equipment and vehicles; Had to outlay money for materials, credit lines, etc....

GC's are typically paper-pushers....The residential/homebuilder typicaslly operates out of his home and/or pick-up. They work off of the owner's money or a construction bank loan. Even alot of commercial GC's don't even own their office, they rent......They've got a few pick-ups for supers to drive...and some rented job shacks...that's about it..... Not all of course...I'm generalizing...

Of course what alot of you guys call subs, are actually missrepresented employees.....


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Real simple solution to all this bull sh*t...

*Subcontractor agreement.*

You can put anything you want in the agreement. Put the sub has to work in panty hose everyday. Put the GC has to buy the sub lunch everyday. Put the sub cannot talk to the GCs customer about job costs of any sort. Put anything you want in it. If both parties agree to it and sign it, it's an agreement.

If there is an issue read the agreement and determine if the Sub is in breach of contract or the GC is in breach of contract. 

How hard is that?

All this crap about who should charge what and ripping people off, who has the most expenses... what a bunch of crap. It all comes down to what did two companies agree to.

This whole thing to me sounds like too morons found each other in the dark, made an hand shake deal and now it's like a bad show of HeeHaw.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

It doesn't matter how much equipment or overhead a GC has, his margin is (should be) based on risk.


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## ChrWright (Jul 17, 2007)

I agree.

And if you're a GC, put into your contracts that the HO is not to negotiate or give direction to your employees or subs...


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

I agree Mike...this has become stupid............


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

tnt specialty said:


> Battleridge & JustaFramer know what's going on.....


not really....selling on price, maybe...


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

mahlehe;

As to your commnet on swapping the GC for sub......I'm of the same opinion. The majority of res. GC's & home builders we've worked for over the years have evaporated. There's a few good ones around..........Very few.:thumbsup:

As to the last comment.....HUH?......What does price have to do with anything?:blink:


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## Tiger (Nov 21, 2007)

I wired a bath remodel in the past month or two. According to the square foot price of $1.85, I got as much on that bath as you pay for a 6000 sq ft house.

Dave


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## mahlere (Aug 6, 2006)

tnt specialty said:


> mahlehe;
> 
> As to your commnet on swapping the GC for sub......I'm of the same opinion. The majority of res. GC's & home builders we've worked for over the years have evaporated. There's a few good ones around..........Very few.:thumbsup:
> 
> As to the last comment.....HUH?......What does price have to do with anything?:blink:





JustaFramer said:


> I hear ya BattleRidge. I have never met to many residential GC's that actually had the right tools for the jobs. Most are cheap when it comes to tools. Most just have a gift to sell ice to eskimos.
> 
> Tip to all the young budding contractors really learn what the whole process to doing a job is. Then assemble a trained crew. Then self perform what you can legally. *Then you can undercut every paper GC and their subs.*


A good paper GC will undercut any self-performing GC in price, quality and at a greater profit. He will not have the carrying costs of full time employees. He will not have to take projects just to keep his men busy (sometimes at a loss) He will not have to carry the overhead (shop, trucks, tools, etc)

What a good one will do is - Hire the right subs. He'll realize that cheaper isn't always better. But he'll hire guys who are professionals at what they do, not the cheap guys who don't.

A good paper GC is like the union. Hire the qualified, at a higher rate maybe, when there is work. Send them back to the hall when there isn't work.

But too many GC's try to self-perform, and all they accomplish is offering sub-par work at cheap prices...


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

I've found quite the opposite mahlere.....Having been a GC for 24 yrs.....

We have brought alot of work in-house as it allows us far greater quality control, as well as efficiency. Don't have to depend on subs schedule, reduce costs as we're not indirectly paying forn each subs potential inefficiency in their overhead/operating costs, and one the most important dynamics is that it affords us much more intimacy in the actual construction process. 

Whether a GC utilizes in-house labor or subs everthing, in a legitimate operation, the DLB is there, regardless. A "paper" contr. that can undercut the GC that performs work with in-house employees is most-likely utilizing suedo-subs, (missclassified employees), who, in turn, plays the same sub-game...It's rampant here in Colorado. 

The "paper contr." scenerio you laid out does work well for new const. but dosen't in remodel/additions type work, as well as some custom/challenging multi-trade projects.:thumbsup:


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## srb (Feb 9, 2008)

tnt specialty said:


> Battleridge & JustaFramer know what's going on.....


What? I don't agree. The whole reason of being an independant contracter is.....independance.A sub and gc can be two totally different animals.or one person. Me i suck from a selling /buissness management point. (Learning that took me more than 4 years) ,I've shaped my buissness around (my) strengths .How (I) want to work and live.When you generalize commplaining,subs suck,gc have crap tools what ever, you exspose your narrowmindedness.Why do you care? Its hard enough to run your own show is it not? Your errors in thinking are facinating though.


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

JustaFramer said:


> No wonder Union membership is on the rise.


Union membership continues to decline especially with stone masons & bricklayers:thumbup:


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

....you can lead a horse to water.......


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## NC-SC GC (Jan 17, 2008)

JustaFramer said:


> The guy over charged you 871 dollars. It took him 8 weeks he already is losing money. You could be losing 871 dollars or not.
> 
> Sounds like you are the one getting off easy on your mistake. If you allotted more money for the labor pay him. Because court is going to cost you more the 871 even if you win.



What? 12,500 @ 350 per 1k = $4375.00
12,500 @ 1300 per 1k = $16,250
that's $11,875.00 or $11,004.00 more than your math, I don't care how long it took him, he originally told me he would be done in a week, I have no idea why it took 8 weeks they had 6 guys on the job and they worked 6 days a week that's an average of a little less than 44 bricks per man per day.

I hire no subs that cannot produce full insurance, for the most part they are subs referred to me by another GC I have little control over the market, I believe one of the reasons is there is so much work in this area that it drives the prices down, I would love to be able to charge what some of you are claiming you get, but if I tried the other guys bidding the job would get every single one as my prices would not be close.

Never do itemized statements, rarely do cost plus unless it's a person I have worked with on past projects, in fact I just did a cost plus for a 7 time repeat customer (in the past 3 years), prior to that I cannot think of any in recent years.


The market I am in is one of the highest producing markets in the country, there is a new neighborhood on almost every corner as it has been like this since 1994, things are slowing down a little on new home construction in the $275k and under homes, there is nothing really available in the $275 to $350 range, over $350k is still moving along fine, but property is getting scarce, 10 years ago you could by a "ready to build" lot for 25k or under, those lots are now over 100k, what has happened here is the prices of the land is raising the cost of the homes but the labor prices are staying the same. My framers are making .10 more PSF now than they made in 1994.

A good GC will never go back to a customer and ask for more money because his sub charged more (unless the customer changed something or something out of the ordinary has changed) a good reputable GC, Contractor or sub should be a professional, if they make a mistake it's their problem, the customer hires a contractor because they are the professional, I see to many times the contractor who underbids a job and when they have the customer held hostage go back and ask for more money because they claim the missed something, very unprofessional in my opinion. A good reputable GC will eat his mistakes and move on this keeps referrals coming in the door, screwing people gets you nothing.


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## C.C.R. (May 19, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> What contractor code book or industry guideline or contractor Bible or ancient sea scrolls maybe is it written that 100% is this or 25% is that?
> 
> I never got that memo and I never got that info passed out at the last contractors convention or even at the last He-Man-Woman-Haters club meeting either. :laughing:


:blink: I see the words your typing, Mike, but I don't see where you're going. Maybe you should reread what I said. If the GC can get 100% markup then great. :thumbup: The sub got the price he wanted and the GC got the price he wanted. It's just my personal way of doing things that I don't Mark up much more than 25%. Isn't it all you old guys :wheelchair: that say,"what I need to make may be differant than what you need to make."? Just my humble input. :shutup::w00t:


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## C.C.R. (May 19, 2006)

hey NC, I think you're absolultely correct. He gave you a price and you gave him the job. Too bad for him he's slow at his trade. :thumbsup:


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## srb (Feb 9, 2008)

tnt specialty said:


> I've found quite the opposite mahlere.....Having been a GC for 24 yrs.....
> 
> We have brought alot of work in-house as it allows us far greater quality control, as well as efficiency. Don't have to depend on subs schedule, reduce costs as we're not indirectly paying forn each subs potential inefficiency in their overhead/operating costs, and one the most important dynamics is that it affords us much more intimacy in the actual construction process.
> 
> ...


 Now that is reality and true.The "inhouse" type you speak of are the kind that stay healthy for generations.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

NC-SC said:


> What? 12,500 @ 350 per 1k = $4375.00
> 12,500 @ 1300 per 1k = $16,250
> that's $11,875.00 or $11,004.00 more than your math, I don't care how long it took him, he originally told me he would be done in a week, I have no idea why it took 8 weeks they had 6 guys on the job and they worked 6 days a week that's an average of a little less than 44 bricks per man per day.
> 
> ...



Ok I went back and re-read your post. I see now that he is charging you 1300 per k. I originally thought he sent you a bill for 1300 after the 3k draw. 
I would take him to court but you don't have a contract. Sound like it will be a lot of legal wrangling.

As for you framers making .10 more than 1994. :laughing:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

One more thing to add since he had 6 guys working 6 days a week for 8 weeks. Not knowing your state laws but you know you could be responsible for them at least making minimum wage and all the taxes.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

mahlere said:


> A good paper GC is like the union. Hire the qualified, at a higher rate maybe, when there is work. Send them back to the hall when there isn't work.
> 
> But too many GC's try to self-perform, and all they accomplish is offering sub-par work at cheap prices...



A good paper gc is like the union. :laughing: Why would a guy have to go back to the hall? We can walk on to any union job and just ask if they are hiring or call a buddy. :laughing:

I beg to differ but all I can say is every paper GC I have ever met is the biggest penny pincher. Since residential went back to feast on ramen or famine again. I am sure that subs have set their prices backwards again.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Brickie said:


> Union membership continues to decline especially with stone masons & bricklayers:thumbup:



Maybe so in certain areas. 

The housing market is not going to turn around this year or next. Even if it did the guys the went union aren't going back. Union guys get paid 20 dollars more a hour than the best wage you could get ratting houses. And we have work for the next 10 years. :laughing: 

With all the OT jobs going on a guy could make 80-100g easy. I think it is a proven fact that non-union hires dumb lazy kids or busted up old hasbeens.

Where do you think the middle ground works? :whistling


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## Brickie (Jun 15, 2006)

> Maybe so in certain areas.


According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics only *13.9 percent of the total construction work force is union*

Considering the fact that a *little of 20 years ago 80 percent of the total construction work force was union*

Wow! Talk about a big time beat down for the unions:clap::clap::clap:


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

Justaframer; Interesting.... I've experienced the opposite with union help. I've utilized union as well as non-union employees......The union guys are typically FAR less productive than non-union.....

In residential, it used to be that non-union guys made alot more $ than union guys.......Things have changed in the last 20 years....maybe it's different now. With all the illegal workforce in construction; It is true that wages have not kept up with the rest of things.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Brickie said:


> According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics only *13.9 percent of the total construction work force is union*
> 
> Considering the fact that a *little of 20 years ago 80 percent of the total construction work force was union*
> 
> Wow! Talk about a big time beat down for the unions:clap::clap::clap:



Yeah I wouldn't join a union is Chicago or New York either. Matter of fact I wouldn't live in those areas.

Lets just say the the Carpenters left the AFL-CIO becuase that organization was holding back new membership. Who do you think picks up the Vets from helmets to hardhats. :laughing:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

tnt specialty said:


> Justaframer; Interesting.... I've experienced the opposite with union help. I've utilized union as well as non-union employees......The union guys are typically FAR less productive than non-union.....
> 
> In residential, it used to be that non-union guys made alot more $ than union guys.......Things have changed in the last 20 years....maybe it's different now. With all the illegal workforce in construction; It is true that wages have not kept up with the rest of things.



It all depends where you are at. This is one or two small residential locals here in WA at least on the west side of the mountains. It's all commercial work for the most part. Because there is a decline in Union membership there are less guys doing the work. A lot of the guys are in there 20's and 30's. So work is done in a productive manor. 

The locals know that the old way is well the old way and are moving to a more competitive nature. That is why if you see a tower crane in WA 99.9% of the time it is a Union shop.


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