# What Do You Think?



## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Attached are photos of a "hand picked" Trowel my Mason received directly from WRose/Kraft. I personally thought this trowel was pulled from seconds bin?
I sent WROSE /Kraft these exact pictures. Also added some opinions from the other masons in regards to quality. 
Keep in mind this is a freebe/replacement I posted about on another thread.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

What is wrong with it (Honestly, I do not know)? Here are 3 grabbed off the shelf at random.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

The void where shank meets blade looks like potential crack waiting to happen. The V voids at bottom side blade never seen nor would I personally purchase. Hand made products vary which is understood. But I'm the guy when I bought trowels, would go through everyone OCD/ perfectionism looking for imperfections. Never bought one in 40 years with those V notch in bottom of blade. The void crack looking area was everyone's dislike.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

3 out of 50+ without the divot, I wouldn't worry about it, since it is part of the forging, it shouldn't be prone to crack there (and I have never had one returned with that issue out of the thousands of trowels that have passed through our doors.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I can practically hear them pounding out these trowels from my home as there made here locally like they've always been since the late 1700's.

Good luck cracking that shank or blade. I been known to clean the shanks with some heavy blows from any hammer that's sitting around and I've never broke one yet.

That perceived defect is quite common place with Rose's forging...it the internal voids or welds which cause weakness...there are no welds in these shanks.

Beat away!

http://www.wrose.com/Products/Forging


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Tscarborough said:


> 3 out of 50+ without the divot, I wouldn't worry about it, since it is part of the forging, it shouldn't be prone to crack there (and I have never had one returned with that issue out of the thousands of trowels that have passed through our doors.


The divot isn't major concern just never seen before. The void at shank where in the 2 second pictures looks like a cracking potential area. Also never seen a trowel with that void. Seems like a little more work with the grinder no void?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Again, it is in the forged area, so it shouldn't lead to a crack, although I agree it would be better aesthetically to grind it out.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Masons in hot climates use those plastic handle trowels? Slippery blister maker.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Cheap bastas!


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

We prefer them as they tend to have most stiff, rigid blades. Leather wraps also close second. We experience less jerking on the wrist with the stiffer blades. The thin more flexible blades jerk on the wrist when you load them. Never blisters, but definitely callous on top of callous. The prices in our area are pretty close across the board. Leather wraps 10 bucks higher.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Yea, I never really liked the plastic handle either.

And Heavy got me thinking like T, so I went and checked out a few of mine own,... frankly couldn't see any defects if I had'em...too much friggin' mud stuck to them anyway. Ones I don't use much looked pretty good actually although several had some voids. 

Which led me to thinkin'...I gotta clean these trowels, they're looking nasty. 

What till Heavy sees how I do this...:laughing:


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

You dont throw none of them out do ya!


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I just beat on mine (margin trowels, pretty much all I use for adhered veneer) with a hammer to get rid of the big stuff, then scrape them clean with a filed-edge margin trowel to get everything else off of them. My plaster trowels I keep clean at all times since they can not really be beat upon or heated up by grinding or even scraping.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Hey, what do you know...my fav bucket trowel and 10.5 narrow london have a chunk missing. 

I bet you this 10.5 trowel is 20 plus years old and the bucket trowel probably 5 and no apparent problems.

I've posted this before, but it's always a good read.

I don't think I've ever thrown a Rose away...a few walked away I'm sure


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm pretty sure this is a mid 90's article from the the local paper I cut out...been a long time now and I'm not even sure Bucky is still around.

I do believe I have the trowel he's holding in that pic however and I'm willing to barter :whistling

Who the hell uses a 6 x 14 anyways...gotta have Popeye arms or something. 

Come on, some one give me an offer would ya


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

superseal said:


> Yea, I never really liked the plastic handle either.
> 
> And Heavy got me thinking like T, so I went and checked out a few of mine own,... frankly couldn't see any defects if I had'em...too much friggin' mud stuck to them anyway. Ones I don't use much looked pretty good actually although several had some voids.
> 
> ...


Exactly what I have a lazy mud man clean my mixers with. No hammers allowed. Love the collection and input from everyone. Seen 2 narrow London
blades cracked in past 6 mo. No abuse other than cutting a batt here and there.
Void on bottom doesn't bother me now that I know others exist. 
The 2 last pictures must look worse in person. Gonna tell my young Mason to carry on only time and working it will tell.:whistling


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

14" is crazy, we only carry up to 13" and they get rusty before some young fool buys them.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

superseal said:


> I'm pretty sure this is a mid 90's article from the the local paper I cut out...been a long time now and I'm not even sure Bucky is still around.
> 
> I do believe I have the trowel he's holding in that pic however and I'm willing to barter :whistling
> 
> ...


The Florida masons love the long ones.
They lay what we call speed block 8" normal dimension only 24" long.
Sorry I've only got some radius line to barter. :laughing:
Is that a Rhino ruler?


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

We all had 12 or 13 inch. I still use them for long runs of block. There is no wrist flicking with a trowel that big, slapping the mud board, or your wrist would wear out.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

It does make a decent hawk on occasion, but a lot of real estate to clean up.

Good catch there Heavy,...it is a rhino.

Don't tell me your seeing those snapping as well.

I dunk mine in the water to clean it up :thumbup:


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## Rockmonster (Nov 15, 2007)

superseal said:


> I'm pretty sure this is a mid 90's article from the the local paper I cut out...been a long time now and I'm not even sure Bucky is still around.
> 
> I do believe I have the trowel he's holding in that pic however and I'm willing to barter :whistling
> 
> ...


I'd give you $30 for it....I've been looking for one for years...used a cohort's many years ago, and sorta liked it. Yours looks like it's all still there! 

Lemme know......maybe I'll throw in a beach umbrella :thumbup:


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

superseal said:


> It does make a decent hawk on occasion, but a lot of real estate to clean up.
> 
> Good catch there Heavy,...it is a rhino.
> 
> ...


No never seen a break. They are so flimsy when you fold them out 6' hard to mark poles good when the ruler is smacking your hard hat. The numbers wear quicker and they fan quicker.
We are always laying modular, I never let my guys carry spacing rulers. If we need them we got bad problems. Yes I know they make modular rulers also tried them but don't use them for reasons above.


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## Gordon Forsyth (May 18, 2015)

Years ago i worked with a mason who had braid towel made in shepfield England. That trowel could cut throw the rose trowel like a knife but i guess they don't make them anymore factory burned down.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Tscarborough said:


> What is wrong with it (Honestly, I do not know)? Here are 3 grabbed off the shelf at random.


I also just this morning randomly picked 5 or 6 different length and handle material WRose. My findings concur my speculation.


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## stonecutter (May 13, 2010)

I've got 5 Rose trowels and none of them have the notch.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

The notch not sure what part of hand forging could leave it. Made from one piece of forged heat treated steel. Is it a particular trade mark of the tradesman. One piece shouldn't have any voids. The top side where shank meets heal of blade is super odd. Seems undersized compared to all others I've been viewing. Or posses and have purchased in the past. Still digging at WRose/Kraft for an accountable answer. Might be the Kraft factor? Not sure how long the merger or take over or partnership has existed?


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Here's a photo of broken blade and no divot in the original. Never bought one either never will poor quality control my guess in reference to divot and odd undersized shank top side.


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## Kniggit (Apr 11, 2013)

I have one of the Rose trowels with the dura-soft handle and it has the small notch.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

So I found it in 2001 Kraft acquired WRose. Now the answers I've been looking are clearing quickly for myself. This issue that has developed and am experiencing reminds me of a similar quality issue. Back in the later 70's most every Mason carried/ used American I beam levels. Then I'm guessing from memory only. About 10 or 15 years ago or so American was bought out by M&D. Quality we enjoyed for decades flushed down the crapper. Now seeing Masons touting American levels is non existent. Beginning to assume possibly this is a similar situation? Just a semi educated guess do to similarities.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I can tell you they do have a seconds pile - rejects that are flagged by quality control and not sold to the public.

They do operate out of the same ancient building using the same ancient machinery as they always did. 

I drive by daily and nothing has changed in my 30+ years I've known of Rose.

Could be a quality control issue I suppose regarding what gets out the door, I don't know.

If your concerned...I just contact them again and tell them your not happy with the chunk missing and I'm sure they'll ship you a new one.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Email sent again. First one in regards to issue was cut off at customer service even after requested a QC/QA representative view and respond. So again another email sent today and specifically requested that customer service push it up the food chain. I'm sure the lady that responded at customer service has handled zero trowels as well as performed QC/QA practices? I'm assuming desk jockey that throws out generic responses and answers phone calls.
No contact information available for PA. everything references KS.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

That broken blade could only have happened in one way, and they are not going to give you a new one for cutting brick with your trowel.

Rose was bought out and so were Hubbard by Kraft, but both are allowed to do exactly as they always have and are both still under the immediate control of their old owners. I will make a call for clarification of the forge marks on Tuesday, I am sick as a dog and not planning on going to work tomorrow.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

The gentleman I spoke with at Kraft/WRose and I had a very detailed conversation about cutting brick with a trowel. Would quote him word for word but don't want to misquote him. His analogy went like this: you don't run your vehicle a quart low on oil while it's not recommended people do it all the time and the vehicle usually runs just fine. I agreed, he said while we don't recommend cutting brick with your trowel but it is done on every job site. 
The irony is we are not allowed to use anything but saw cuts by contract to include batts. Argument being it causes unseen fractures in the unit. And another discrepancy is we were on a block job. When the trowel got twangy I asked to look at it and seen the crack. So here we are?
In my laying days I cut every batt on the job with my trowel. Never ever broke a trowel. My father did it for 55 years and never broke a trowel. The one other that broke of mine personally was during frigid weather and I hit the mud pan and the trowel handle and half of the blade was in my hand other half fell beside mud pan. I've seen guys cut wire with trowels no breaks. Returned a trowel some time back broken almost in two a Mason was going to throw out. No questions asked.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Yes, it would be silly of masons not to cut brick and wire with the tool at hand. Just don't bring it back and say it is a defect.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Tscarborough said:


> Yes, it would be silly of masons not to cut brick and wire with the tool at hand. Just don't bring it back and say it is a defect.


Do you understand that we do not live in a perfect world? So nothing is perfect if it was warranties wouldn't even exist. Things break in the real world sometimes for no reason? You are taking this awfully personally? As a matter of fact your words are pretty much identical of the vendor that wouldn't replace the trowel initially? 
So all I can say is show me the video that proves your accusation. :clap:
I suppose you've never taken a craftsmen tool back for replacement that you willingly knowingly misused. 
Or a Kobalt product, your just an angle of honesty and integrity. Probably the first guy in the door Sunday morning? 
You have a twisted angle on this whole thread for some under lying reason. Nuff said enjoy your life.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Um, OK. I sell those trowels, no secret there. I also have used them enough to understand how they are used. I am not saying you shouldn't cut brick or wire with your trowel, it is efficient and productive. But it is not a defect in the tool, and don't bring it back to me when you break it claiming that it is.

I don't have any Kobalt tools, and they are not craftsman grade anyway. I can promise that I have never taken a tool back that I abused and claimed a defective product.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

As so frequently happens here the point and reason for the post is misconstrued beyond the original issue. The facts are the trowel broke the trowel carries a lifetime warranty and WRose stepped right up and replaced it. 
The foremost question as the post began was simple. What to you think of the " hand picked" trowel sent as the replacement? I'm guilty myself of getting caught up by the instigation. 
Let's remember 5 very important words that are the key stone to a successful business. THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT. 
I think it is bad business to have a mind set as the gentleman above clearly uses his own clouded judgement and crystal ball to form opinionated personal attacks on customers? Hopefully I'll never have the misfortune of doing business in Austin.:no::clap:


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

The customer is not always right, and the fact that you say that shows me how much you know about business. Let me give you an example you can relate to. Your customer is the GC, right? They are the ones giving you a check, so they are. Are your GC's always right?


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## jazzwillie (May 15, 2015)

I clean mine on a mud board. Pour a little water on it and swirl it around till the bottom is clean and do the same to the top. Gets a polish every time. Take a bucket of water, dip my trowel in and rub another trowel or pointing trowel on the face i'm cleaning. Repeat on the opposite face.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Tscarborough said:


> The customer is not always right, and the fact that you say that shows me how much you know about business. Let me give you an example you can relate to. Your customer is the GC, right? They are the ones giving you a check, so they are. Are your GC's always right?


Like to see that statement on your business card or better yet I'm sure those are the first words out of your mouth when/ if you meet/have any clients.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

Are your GC's always right?


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

I will assume the answer is "no", because it is the truth. The question is not really if the customer is right or wrong, the real question is can all parties leave the transaction satisfied. That is goal of a salesperson, no matter if they are selling a block or a wall. Anyone in a position to have to negotiate an outcome is a salesperson, whether they have that title on their card or not.

The art of selling is not predicated on who is right or wrong, it is predicated on reaching the desired goal of all parties. The hardest part of a young salesman's job is understanding that while he can certainly prove the customer wrong, that is not the desired result. A salesman, a real one, does not need to prove anything, other than he can get the desired outcome accomplished for both parties.

You are not my customer, you are a semi-anonymous poster on an internet board. I do not have a shared outcome to reach with you, other than maybe both of us learn something.


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

Let's bury the popcorn fest and get back on topic shall we...I like both of you guys, two unique personalities for sure and much knowledge to be taken :thumbsup:

I can honestly say, I've never cracked a Rose blade and I can whack the hell out of them with the best of them. Seriously, I smack wheel barrows to clean them, cut brick, wire, dura-wall a few times :blink:, I use them to cut roots and fine tune excavations, I pry up rocks out of holes...totally abuse the chit out them...Then again I really haven't made any recent purchases of them either. Years ago, I bought so many I don't think I'll ever have to by another.

Anyway, that crack is impressive to me and does make me wonder if it wasn't a defect out of the box...I got one trowel actually looks like its two pieces right in the middle of the blade. It's a straight line perpendicular to the handle like a finger joint and even the appearance of the metal is different. It's worn well throughout the years however. 

The more I think about it, I think Rose ought to send you the Chome or Golden anniversary model to make up. Hell, it's worth a mention :thumbsup:


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## Fouthgeneration (Jan 7, 2014)

If you ever clean a steel tool with acid you can em-brittle the steel by the removing of the carbon from between the iron crystals, leading to cracks.

Chrome plated tools are "hydrogen em-brittled" during the plating process, thus the presentation trowels would sadly likely crack in heavy use. 

Heavy C, as soon I started to get any wrist issues I quit cutting brick with a trowel and switched to brick hammer or hammer and set only for bats.... No more midnight numb hands.

Nearly all my trowels have a crutch tip installed to preserve the handles length over the entire lifetime of use, a 1.50$ for months more of comfortable service, and its color lessens tool confusion on larger crew jobs. I prefer the 6" wood handle over the 5" plastic just for balance issues, but I've never successfully replaced a wood handle without damaging it in some way. 

Folding rules have their place, but I want every mason to use a self winding tape rule whenever practical for speed of production 

Using inefficient sub par tools is just another form of work place theft.


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

Ive lost at least 2 trowels from hitting them against the scaffold when its cold. Sh!t breaks I cant believe anyone gives a crap. Just buy a new one.


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## jazzwillie (May 15, 2015)

I like bolt cutters and hammers.......:biggrin:


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

JBM said:


> Ive lost at least 2 trowels from hitting them against the scaffold when its cold. Sh!t breaks I cant believe anyone gives a crap. Just buy a new one.


If the trowel had broken due to abuse, improper use or was the fault of the user, that's what we do. The trowel was maybe 2 mo. with at most 1/8" to 3/16" wear. Why not use the warranty?


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## jazzwillie (May 15, 2015)

If I have a warranty on something and I'm within the bounds of that warranty... Darn it I'm using it. I bought a Stanley Fatmax 35' tape about 7 years ago, and have replaced it under warranty about once a year. If my trowel breaks... you can bet I'll be turning it in for a replacement. I just have to have one to use in the mean time. 

I bought a W. Rose Philadelphia with a ProForm handle about 6 years ago. About 6 months into it I could feel some flex in the handle. So I called them up and talked to the customer service rep and they said they would replace my handle. She said it should never break in the middle. When it got to the house I had an extra in the box. I called them up again to make sure they knew they put two in. She said if a customer's handle breaks and they are putting on their own handle they usually give them a spare in case they don't get it right on the first one.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Tscarborough said:


> Are your GC's always right?


Assumption incorrect. Our customer is the Federal Government and I hope we both know they are always right.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

JBM said:


> Ive lost at least 2 trowels from hitting them against the scaffold when its cold. Sh!t breaks I cant believe anyone gives a crap. Just buy a new one.


So you buy a new truck/ car has warranty. But as you said stuff breaks. And your transmission goes out under warranty off to the scrap yard it goes? Then just go buy a new one?


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## JBM (Mar 31, 2011)

heavyc said:


> So you buy a new truck/ car has warranty. But as you said stuff breaks. And your transmission goes out under warranty off to the scrap yard it goes? Then just go buy a new one?


Difference is the trowel maker is essentially a small biz, maybe even a family biz with no handouts from the govt. and more then likely money from the oil companies to keep the gas mileage sh!tty. 

But yeah, I suppose if the trowel was under 3 months id bring it to the less thrilled people at the brick yard who are all out of sh!ts about my problem and see if they would send it in to them. If I get that blank look they have mastered so well ill just drop it down a chimney. 

After I stopped whacking it against the side of the scaffold, probably 15-18 years ago, Ive not had one break since. 

The leather handle has got a nick in the wrapping and came unwrapped a few times, but once I stopped tossing them down into the sand pile from 30' up, and dropping rocks on them the handles lasted longer. 

But sure as the sun will come up I can break almost anything without meaning to. I am not permitted to touch wine glasses or her parents china except to eat off it. 

Ive learned to just pay for my mishaps.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Touché JBM so gand having civil conversations.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

You contract directly with the government as a masonry contractor?


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## jazzwillie (May 15, 2015)

If its the only one I have, I have to buy a new one. But why not get the broken one replaced under a warranty? Its the prudent move.

This 73 year old bricklayer who came to work for us said "Their your tools, but you're abusing them if you aren't using them for that they are for... Trowels are for spreading mortar hammers for hammering nails, working chisels & tapping block, and bolt cutters are for cutting wire." Incidentally he probably left more mortar at the bottom of the scaffolding than anyone I've worked with. But his trowel was almost 40 years old. Before anyone asks it was significantly smaller than most I have seen anyone use to lay brick and very thin.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Tscarborough said:


> You contract directly with the government as a masonry contractor?


Well it's OUR tax dollars that are payed out through certified payroll. So the irony is you and I and all other tax paying Americans are the customers in the end ponder that.


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## Tscarborough (Feb 25, 2006)

In the end doesn't matter (although you are right about ultimately), you have to make the GC happy, he has to make the government happy, and I just have to make the masonry contractor happy. This doesn't mean there is no interaction among the groups, but my customer is the masonry contractor only, anything I do, I do on his behalf.


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## S.U.M (Apr 17, 2013)

heavyc said:


> If the trowel had broken due to abuse, improper use or was the fault of the user, that's what we do. The trowel was maybe 2 mo. with at most 1/8" to 3/16" wear. Why not use the warranty?



My levels are under a lifetime warranty, when the give inaccurate readings say after being dropped I bring them into my supplier and the rep comes by and takes it to test it, if it's off I get a new one, if not I get it back. While they have it away for testing i still need a level so I bought another and use it, and so on and so on and so on ..........
I only use this as they offer a lifetime warranty, not sure of the warranty on my Marshalltown, they don't advertise it as much as the level company so never bothered to worry about it.


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## patrick grey (Jun 13, 2013)

I have rose trowels with that notch in them ,it seems to be common enough .i would have to ask the question if some of the trowels they make do not have it why is it that they can't make them all with out it ? Is it a quality control issue I wonder .having said that I doubt they would break because of it.in the last few years I have tried out a lot of brick trowels ,to name a few, bellota trowels from Spain ,w.h.s from the u.k ,bon tools u.s.a , lowes kobalt trowels (made in China) ragni Italy ,ox Australia .most purchased on ebay very cheap and none of them have that notch. in all my years using mostly Marshalltown I have never seen one with that notch.all the trowels except for the bon tools trowel were one piece forged the bon trowels are welded construction.i have cleaned them by beating them with brick hammers, banged them off of walls to knock mortar off , broke bricks with them and never had a trowel break.


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## heavyc (Jul 2, 2013)

Just quick update as the shipping services involved were a little behind. Persistence pays off when you're not 100% satisfied. After talking to a few folks a little higher up the corporate ladder. Thanks Kraft/ WRose.


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## dom-mas (Nov 26, 2011)

Just grabbed an $8 trowel for cleaning the mixer cause my other one broke on friday...had the sticker and the price tag on the blade...so has EVERY SINGLE OTHER TROWEL I"VE EVER BOUGHT. Why? And not on the back of the blade where you don't pick up mortar but on the face of the blade! Pi$$es me off so much. I can almost understand it when the Know nothing pissant $8 trowel company does it...they make a ton of things that aren't masonry related, but Rose and Marshalltown make masonry tools...it's what they specialise in...don't they know?


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