# Ramset...illegal to use?



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

I stopped by a friends jobsite yesterday and as we were talking one of his carpenters came and got him to take care of a few items using a ramset. After he was done, he told me that the guy isnt allowed to use the ramset due the fact that the guy had a felony conviction, (child support...I guess they consider that violent?). 

I have never heard of anything like that. I realize about not owning a firearm, but a ramset?!? You guys ever hear about anything like that in your areas? Just curious.


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## loneframer (Feb 13, 2009)

If I remember correctly, some of the more powerful powder actuated fastening guns require certification to purchase and operate, in NJ anyway.


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## HSConstruction (Mar 21, 2009)

We had to be certified for Hilti on a commercial job....but that was 15 years ago.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

Wolfgang said:


> I stopped by a friends jobsite yesterday and as we were talking one of his carpenters came and got him to take care of a few items using a ramset. After he was done, he told me that the guy isnt allowed to use the ramset due the fact that the guy had a felony conviction, (child support...I guess they consider that violent?).
> 
> I have never heard of anything like that. I realize about not owning a firearm, but a ramset?!? You guys ever hear about anything like that in your areas? Just curious.


For any powder actuated tool you need to be certified.

The laws regarding felons and the use or posession of firearms may not allow them to use powder actuated tools.

I din't realize not paying child support was a felony.


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## rjconstructs (Apr 26, 2009)

I haven't heard anything. Who would enforce it anyway?


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Certification for Powder Actuated tools is a JOKE at best.

As for the legalities of usage..........

Technically, a Convicted Felon MAY NOT Purchase or Possess the cartridges.

Home Depot in NYC carries the nails and the guns.......BUT NOT the loads. 

REALLY convenient!!!

I am certified by RAMSET. It was a VERY extensive and laborious process! I was asked to answer 20 questions then mail my answers to the Company and await my Certification!

Those weeks in-between were a *****! I could not sleep at night because of my anticipation! I actually have considered counseling due to the residual effects that this waiting period has created!

I may NEVER be the same!


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## BKFranks (Feb 19, 2008)

They sell those things at Home Depot. No one asks for any certification to buy it and I've never seen anyone ask for a certification to use it.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

On the other point from what I have learned from dealing with our family felon; it is common for felons to claim they were in prison for different acts than they really did.

So while he says he went to prison for being behind in child support, what could have really happened is: he was behind in child support, so he got really drunk and went to talk to her, he became enraged, beat up his ex wife, and was arrested at gun point by four cops.

Felons become felons with a lot of effort on their part, do not believe them.

I don't know the laws of the state where the crime occurred, but it seems unlikely that failure to pay child support is a felony. But harassment, DV, assault and similar are


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

BKFranks said:


> They sell those things at Home Depot. No one asks for any certification to buy it and I've never seen anyone ask for a certification to use it.


Any of the new powder atuated toold will have a warning about certification being required.

Even if they don't, HD is a retailer they are not required to inform people of laws regarding the use of products they sell.

If OSHA comes onto a jobsite and someone is caught using one without certification, they can fine you.


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

HAH totally hilarious thread!


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

bwalley said:


> Even if they don't, HD is a retailer they are not required to inform people of laws regarding the use of products they sell


Big Walley is right. HD and lumber yards are not required to inform you that using dimensional lumber as scaffold planks is illegal, nor is your local Goodwill required to tell you that transporting gasoline in a school bus is an illegal use of the antique flower vase you just purchaed there


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

http://www.rentrain.com/aaaurent/product.php?id=34422&type=safety


Safety Information 
IMPORTANT: LEGAL OPERATION OF THIS TOOL REQUIRES CERTIFICATION. YOU MUST BE CERTIFIED TO OPERATE THIS TOOL. TO TAKE THE CERTIFICATION TEST FOR THIS TOOL, FOLLOW THIS LINK: Ramset-Cobra Powder Actuated Tool Licensing

NOTE: In the state of California powder actuated tool licensing must be renewed every three (3) years. In the lower 48 states, licensing lasts a lifetime.

For additional and important safety and operating information about this product, follow these links: 
Ramset Fastener - Fastening Applications 

Ramset Cobra - Fasteners/Loads










*THIS TOOL FOR USE BY LICENSED OPERATORS ONLY. READ AND OBEY ALL SAFETY AND OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE OPERATING TOOL.

THIS TOOL IS TO BE USED ONLY BY PROPERLY TRAINED AND LICENSED OPERATORS. YOU MUST SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETE ITW RAMSET/RED HEAD’S TRAINING PROGRAM FOR THE TOOL AND OBTAIN A CERTIFIED OPERATOR’S LICENSE BEFORE HANDLING, LOADING OR OPERATING THIS TOOL.

ATTEMPTING TO HANDLE OR OPERATE THIS TOOL WITHOUT PROPER TRAINING AND LICENSING CAN RESULT IN SERIOUS INJURY TO THE OPERATOR OR BYSTANDERS.









Operator’s and bystanders must wear eye and hearing protection.










Read manual before operating tool.


















Never close tool with hand over fastener loading end of the tool. A serious hand injury from penetration by the piston or a discharged fastener could result.

*
*







*
*Just as no one can merely read a book about driving an automobile and then hope to drive one safely, no one should attempt to use any Ramset tool without adequate, competent personal instruction. And just as one must be licensed to drive an automobile, one must also be licensed to use a powder actuated tool. No automobile instruction book or instructor can forewarn a learner against all possibilities and emergencies, nor can ITW Ramset/Red Head instructors and printed material detail all possible conditions surrounding the use of ITW Ramset/Red Head tools and products.

Responsibility for the safe and proper use of this tool rests with the tool user and the employer.

Preparation
*
*








NEVER FASTEN INTO VERY HARD OR BRITTLE MATERIALS*

*Acceptable Base Materials - Powder actuated fastening is suitable for use in the following base materials only:
• Poured Concrete
• Structural Steel
• Masonry Joints 
Never attempt to fasten into any other type of material. Fastening into other materials can cause blindness or other serious injury.

*


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## PREMIER INSUL (Sep 15, 2009)

As a certified ITW Pasload instructor I take major offense to this post


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## mics_54 (Oct 28, 2008)

*



Just as no one can merely read a book about driving an automobile and then hope to drive one safely, no one should attempt to use any Ramset tool without adequate, competent personal instruction. And just as one must be licensed to drive an automobile, one must also be licensed to use a powder actuated tool. 

Click to expand...

 
hahahahah!*


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## BKFranks (Feb 19, 2008)

Here ya go. Read the material and take the test. It will then generate a license for you to print out. Should take you about 2 minutes.

Take the Powder Actuated Tool Licensing.
http://www.ramset.com/ramtest/index.html

Operator Test:
http://www.ramset.com/ramtest/operator_test.asp


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## camaroman2125 (Apr 13, 2006)

> I don't know the laws of the state where the crime occurred, but it seems unlikely that failure to pay child support is a felony. But harassment, DV, assault and similar are


It depends on how many time's he's been in trouble for not paying before, and how long it's been since no payment has been made. In Ohio if they have plead or been found guilty of non-payment before, and it's been longer than 26 weeks of no payment it's a 5th degree felony


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

They can take my Ramset away from me when they pry it from my cold dead hands!


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

I feel better now.I have heard that OSHA SWAT teams have been staging raids looking for unlicensed PAT users....


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

JumboJack said:


> I feel better now.I have heard that OSHA SWAT teams have been staging raids looking for unlicensed PAT users....


I took the test as well, my number is 027.

I didn't even read all the material and I passed it, i missed the one about the manula because I assumed it said to read it, they put a Not in it, I guess to make sure you read the questions.


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## rjconstructs (Apr 26, 2009)

Whew, glad I passed. Now I won't have to always be looking over my shoulder or feeling like I'm a criminal.


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

rjconstructs said:


> Whew, glad I passed. Now I won't have to always be looking over my shoulder or feeling like I'm a criminal.


I'm thinking about getting my new license laminated and wearing it around my neck on a lanyard.


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## abacab (Sep 16, 2009)

I can't wait to add that one to my resume. The ladies are going to be impressed.


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## DetailHandyman (Jul 21, 2008)

abacab said:


> I can't wait to add that one to my resume. The ladies are going to be impressed.



Maybe the ladies don't want to hear about your powder actuated tool. :shifty:


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

DetailHandyman said:


> Maybe the ladies don't want to hear about your powder actuated tool. :shifty:


They used to call me "Ramset" in High School...True story.


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

JumboJack said:


>


So a happy 43rd birthday is in order for tomorrow?


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## PrestigeR&D (Jan 6, 2010)

*Angus,*

Happy Birthday dude,:thumbsup::drink:arty:


update Angus,


Psssst, I know -but I probably won't be on here tomarrow- your a PITA :drink:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

PrestigeR&D said:


> Happy Birthday dude,:thumbsup::drink:arty:



Uh, not my birthday (yet).


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## JumboJack (Aug 14, 2007)

angus242 said:


> So a happy 43rd birthday is in order for tomorrow?


Yes...I like presents.:thumbsup:


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

the only times ive heard of it being illegal to use a ramset is on large commercial jobs you have to be licensed because of all the saftey regulations

the other time was regarding the old school high velocity tools, their just plain unsafe and could actually be used as a firearm from what i undertand


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## chris klee (Feb 5, 2008)

that test was hard. i didnt realize there was a book to read first. good thing i am really smart and got a 100%.
i didnt have to take any test when i bought my 9mm. just a 20 min background check and off i went. 
so the ramset has a much more stringent testing and certification process.


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

Anti-wingnut said:


> On the other point from what I have learned from dealing with our family felon; it is common for felons to claim they were in prison for different acts than they really did.
> 
> So while he says he went to prison for being behind in child support, what could have really happened is: he was behind in child support, so he got really drunk and went to talk to her, he became enraged, beat up his ex wife, and was arrested at gun point by four cops.
> 
> ...



I have a very good friend in this exact situation. 

Once arrears hit $10,000 it is indeed a felony. He got 5 years probation.


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## bwalley (Jan 7, 2009)

woodworkbykirk said:


> the only times ive heard of it being illegal to use a ramset is on large commercial jobs you have to be licensed because of all the saftey regulations
> 
> the other time was regarding the old school high velocity tools, their just plain unsafe and could actually be used as a firearm from what i undertand


They aren't illegal to use, the operator just needs to be certified.

One of the selling points for Trackfast systems is there is no certification for use required.

If you understood how they worked, you would realize they can't be used as a firearm.


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## stonelayer (Feb 21, 2009)

Well I'm Certified now, how much more general liabilty insurance should I get? I've only got $500,000, reckon thats enough?:whistling


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

so... if he pays the $10,000 is he still a Felon?


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## Project_Pat (Jul 13, 2008)

I'm going to make a confession here..... I have put thousands of Hilt Sill plate pins in with out any certification, license, background check or even a psychological evaluation.:w00t:


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

ChainsawCharlie said:


> I have a very good friend in this exact situation.
> 
> Once arrears hit $10,000 it is indeed a felony. He got 5 years probation.


I'm sure that that is true, but I still couldn't find anything on Hawaii's website mentioning this. I like to find proof of claims like this, because urban ledgends and lunchbox BS are far too common.

So your friend just let his child support debt accrue without contacting the court? And now he is a felon?

Is that felony failure to pay child support, or felony stupidity?


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## Greg Di (Mar 12, 2005)

bwalley said:


> If you understood how they worked, you would realize they can't be used as a firearm.


Hey, hey, hey....

Danny Glover showed me how to kill a bad guy with a Paslode framer, so don't go saying you can't do the same thing with a PAT.
:laughing:


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## angus242 (Oct 20, 2007)

JumboJack said:


> Yes...I like presents.:thumbsup:


:happybday: Happy birthday!!!! :happybday:


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## woodworkbykirk (Sep 17, 2008)

misunderstanding on my post i guess, i sayed that direct fire p.a.t's are illegal too many injuries occured with the use of them. the direct fire tool fires the blank and the explosion that occurs drives the nail. 

the newer indirect fire models are fine to use just some jobsites require a license on them. the blank fires, pushes a drive pin which is what drives the nail


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## Michaeljp86 (Apr 10, 2007)

I never heard of this, I can go to almost any lumber yard and buy the shells. I just got a buttload of them at bLowes on the sale table.


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## AFOREMA1 (Jun 25, 2009)

Anti-wingnut said:


> On the other point from what I have learned from dealing with our family felon; it is common for felons to claim they were in prison for different acts than they really did.
> 
> So while he says he went to prison for being behind in child support, what could have really happened is: he was behind in child support, so he got really drunk and went to talk to her, he became enraged, beat up his ex wife, and was arrested at gun point by four cops.
> 
> ...


I won't go out of my way to assume something about which I know nothing like you just did, but I will point out to you to educate you that child support violations at certain levels, dollar amounts, in a large number of states are in fact felonies. Just a fact from an ex-cop instead of assuming something I do not know. :whistling


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## AFOREMA1 (Jun 25, 2009)

Anti-wingnut said:


> I'm sure that that is true, but I still couldn't find anything on Hawaii's website mentioning this. I like to find proof of claims like this, because urban ledgends and lunchbox BS are far too common.
> 
> So your friend just let his child support debt accrue without contacting the court? And now he is a felon?
> 
> Is that felony failure to pay child support, or felony stupidity?


you can contact the court here in Michigan about being behind all you want it still won't stop you from getting arrested if the want too.


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## AFOREMA1 (Jun 25, 2009)

jlhaslip said:


> so... if he pays the $10,000 is he still a Felon?


if he was charged and convicted it won't matter if he paid or not unless they ask for an expungement of their record. Usually you have to wait five years after your sentence is over to request that. An like any felony they report it on your credit reports and it immediately takes your rating into the basement.

If he pays before the court date they will usually drop the charges completely though and most states generally don't give more than 90 days of jail, although it has happened, but the sentences can be for several years which means years of probation. They just did a major task force round up here in Michigan a couple of months ago. And a sting were they called and told them they had won a tv or something then when they showed up to the sting location they busted them, filled a greyhound type bus up with child support violators.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

As a ex-cop, you should also remember that most felons are constant and compulsive liars, remember :whistling

Most cops and ex-cops I know sure aren't so defensive about the poor felons, boo hoo


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## AFOREMA1 (Jun 25, 2009)

Anti-wingnut said:


> As a ex-cop, you should also remember that most felons are constant and compulsive liars, remember :whistling
> 
> Most cops and ex-cops I know sure aren't so defensive about the poor felons, boo hoo


not defensive at all just correcting your lack of knowledge about it being a felony when you assumed and went out of your way to make more of it than the guy said it was even though you had never met him.

and again you assume, I have found that most felons I have caught are more honest about themselves than the average petty criminals, once caught most will say nothing rather than lie because they know lying will go against them at trial. So again your assuming.:no:


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

Sorry if you took offense that I think dead beat dads are scum suckers, and that I find it odd that you assume that the poor felons story is unimpeachable


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## AFOREMA1 (Jun 25, 2009)

Anti-wingnut said:


> Sorry if you took offense that I think dead beat dads are scum suckers, and that I find it odd that you assume that the poor felons story is unimpeachable


nope dead beat dads suck , you assume a lot without actual reading the meaning don't you? And I did not assume his story was unimpeachable, but I did not go out of my way like you to *assume* he lied and make up a BS story of why he was really a felon, even though you have no clue who he was.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> you assume a lot .


 I assume felons suck and lie


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> I have found that most felons I have caught are more honest about themselves than the average petty criminals, once caught most will say nothing rather than lie because they know lying will go against them at trial. So again your assuming.:no:


I also have non-insubstantial experience with a cadre of felons, and I find that they are all liars. It has nothing to do with assuming.

If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

Anti-wingnut said:


> I'm sure that that is true, but I still couldn't find anything on Hawaii's website mentioning this. I like to find proof of claims like this, because urban ledgends and lunchbox BS are far too common.
> 
> So your friend just let his child support debt accrue without contacting the court? And now he is a felon?
> 
> Is that felony failure to pay child support, or felony stupidity?


It accrued from missed/short payments over a period of years. Mostly during a stretch of unemployment. I remember him saying they were taking half his unemployment through garnishment at the time, and that did not cover the full payment. So I suppose he could have gone to court to get a reduction.

And his is Federal. Department of Justice. Hawaii has nothing to do with it.


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## ChainsawCharlie (Jan 16, 2008)

Anti-wingnut said:


> I also have non-insubstantial experience with a cadre of felons, and I find that they are all liars. It has nothing to do with assuming.
> 
> If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck



This dude's a good guy. Maybe makes some bad decisions, but he doesn't set out to screw people over. He helped change my mind in the way I view people and their past.

And here ya go...some lunchbox reading:

http://www.cffpp.org/publications/pdfs/crimstat.pdf


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## MALCO.New.York (Feb 27, 2008)

Anti-wingnut said:


> As a ex-cop, you should also remember that most felons are constant and compulsive liars, remember :whistling
> 
> Most cops and ex-cops I know sure aren't so defensive about the poor felons, boo hoo


MOST Cops, if not a legacy, BECOME Cops because of an "underlying agenda" and an inherent and overwhelming attitude of "us against them".

A Psychosis of sorts!


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

ChainsawCharlie said:


> This dude's a good guy. Maybe makes some bad decisions, but he doesn't set out to screw people over. He helped change my mind in the way I view people and their past.


Thanks for the link, Chainsaw Chuck. Myself, I have gone the direct opposite path than you. I used to believe felons, crooks, and criminals were not always crooks, criminals, and felons. But this opinion was not based on actually knowing any of the above. Now after my extended dealings with our family felon and his cadre of similar miscreants, my view of this type of person has become very jaundiced.


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## CharlesD (Feb 12, 2007)

Anti-wingnut said:


> I also have non-insubstantial experience with a cadre of felons, and I find that they are all liars. It has nothing to do with assuming.
> 
> If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck


I never met a cop who didn't think everyone was a liar. That sort of attitude sort of goes with the job.
And I understand what developes that attitude in them. It might be in me too if I had to deal with the people they deal with.
I have a young friend who's a city patrolman. I stay on his case all the time about not developing the "me against them" and "they're all guilty of something" attitude.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

CharlesD,

I'm not the one here who's a former cop. I'm a liberal former dope smoking hippy. Afore is the former cop.

Afore is the one who feels that felons are honest about their past, I'm the one who doesn't believe anything a felon says until it's been verified.

Of course, some of the difference is when Afore is sitting in his patrol car asking a felon about his past, the felon knows that Afore has the ability to get almost the entire past of the felon with a computer click.

As a civilian, our ability to verify the story of a felon is costlier in both time and money, and is therefore less likely to be done.

I still maintain that whenever anyone says that someone is a felon because of child support issues, that there are likely major circumstances that are being unsaid.

There are many steps of action (or inaction), and decisions that one must make to become a felon, it just doesn't descend upon poor innocent upstanding citizens.


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## AFOREMA1 (Jun 25, 2009)

Anti-wingnut said:


> CharlesD,
> 
> I'm not the one here who's a former cop. I'm a liberal former dope smoking hippy. Afore is the former cop.
> 
> ...


Nope just one step if a felon because of child support no twelve step process but hey you know it all. Someone could hardly be a felon for one mistake could they? That would be unheard of.


And as for a felon being honest yeah I usually have a means to verify what they say I don't take their word for it but like I said I don't assume anything with out verifying it first. Your assuming the guy is a mass murderer with no proof other than your prejudice. I don't, I work on fact not assumption.


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## AFOREMA1 (Jun 25, 2009)

CharlesD said:


> I never met a cop who didn't think everyone was a liar. That sort of attitude sort of goes with the job.
> And I understand what developes that attitude in them. It might be in me too if I had to deal with the people they deal with.
> I have a young friend who's a city patrolman. I stay on his case all the time about not developing the "me against them" and "they're all guilty of something" attitude.


Yeah a lot of the cops I know believe everyone is a liar too, like anti-wingnut they assume a lot of the time because it becomes easier to just assume everyone is a **** bag and trust no one. But I know a lot of cops like me as well that will base there actions and opinions on more substantial things like say facts before forming an opinion.


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## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

AFOREMA1 said:


> Someone could hardly be a felon for one mistake could they? That would be unheard of


Yes, I believe it is almost impossible to become a felon with one mistake. It takes a lot of mistakes, ignoring multiple orders from the court, not getting help with substance abvuse or anger problems, et etc.


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## JKBARR127 (Jan 13, 2010)

back to the thred. is there a seprate liscence/exam for hilti?


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## TheToolMan (Feb 6, 2010)

WE aren't required to have a license for ramset up here in Canada, nor to sell the shots.
I rent the Ramset Cobra, sell all the nails and all shots. I just fax my order to ITW-Ramset and a day or two later, they are delivered to me =D

I does state on our boxes of nails about the license , i've called ITW about it, and they told me we don't need it in Canada


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