# $190,000 worth of work I won't get



## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

:bangin: I added up the projects I have done estimates on in the last 7 days. Comes to just over $190,000 worth of work.

I'm counting on landing probably none of it. 

Awesome.


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

That's all?

Either you're a good closer, or don't do much work to begin with.


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## plazaman (Apr 17, 2005)

at least its better than staying home and listening to music all day. (Me) I give up.. what else.. to do.. Top it off.. im Single!


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## katoman (Apr 26, 2009)

Mike, why don't you think you're going to get any of those jobs? Price too high? Are these customers you know? Referrals? Random jobs to quote?

I get almost all my work via referral, and sell about 90% of what I quote. They have seen my work and have already decided to use me. It's just a question of giving them an estimate.

Just wondering.


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## Tom R (Jun 1, 2004)

Remind them you're the head honcho . . . :whistling


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## Roberts Ren (Sep 13, 2009)

I have bid 6 jobs int he last three weeks and not a single call on them so I ask around and everyone I talk to is the same so I' thinking its that time of the year two of the jobs are not "mine" on paper but have been told they are just not until after the first of the year. hold in there


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

katoman said:


> Mike, why don't you think you're going to get any of those jobs? Price too high? Are these customers you know? Referrals? Random jobs to quote?
> 
> I get almost all my work via referral, and sell about 90% of what I quote. They have seen my work and have already decided to use me. It's just a question of giving them an estimate.
> 
> Just wondering.


Priced too high, why else?


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## Chasing Dreams (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm sure something will shake loose out of 6 estimates:thumbsup:

:thumbdownPlease refer to what is written below:clap:


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Priced too high, why else?


How long before you start to lower prices?
Are these typical numbers? 
If you get 1 out of 10 you should get next quote, is that the thinking?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Not going to. The recession is coming to an end, it's a positive sign that bigger projects are coming back on the market. But that doesn't change the unrealistic consumer who still wants things done 30% cheaper.


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> Priced too high, why else?


Eat crow sucker. You wonce tried to laugh at me when I told you "you'd price yourself out of the market." While it pains me to have to use this emoticon I must in shear jest. :laughing::laughing::laughing::w00t:


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## Frank P (Nov 2, 2009)

Booked to March, it is breaking loose.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

JustaFramer said:


> Eat crow sucker. You wonce tried to laugh at me when I told you "you'd price yourself out of the market." While it pains me to have to use this emoticon I must in shear jest. :laughing::laughing::laughing::w00t:


 
Thanks for your support. :thumbsup:

Don't know when you told me anything about pricing myself out of the market, (must have meant a lot more to you then me)

I'm glad you care enough to pull yourself all the way out of the basement and a scintilating thread about how bad Obama is to check in on me here. Since you care so much here was my 2009: 

We expanded to a 3000 sq/ft warehouse this year, paid cash for : a company truck, a fork lift, a 2nd trailer, outfitted it with 20K of tools, hired an additional carpenter, purchased 30K in inventory, increased sales by 30% over last year and made a profit after all that cash outlay.

We have also had and have a 60-90 day back-log of work for 3 years running. 

I took 3 weeks of vacation out of the country.

I guess I should have priced myself out of the market earlier.

But enough about my hard times, how was your year? I'm going to guess pretty good based on the bitterness.:laughing:


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## JustaFramer (Jan 21, 2005)

worked all year Mike.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Glad to hear it.


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

Mike,
I was asking to see if this is your typical closing ratio.
Is that how many proposals you put out until you get one that is worth doing?


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

No, but just like any sales, you can go through streaks where you do 10 estimates and don't sell them then sell the next 3 in a row.


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## d-rock (Oct 17, 2009)

As some of you probably know, this was my first year in business. as far as bidding, same thing happens to me (sub). It's mainly b/c i been bidding for same couple of GC's. One of them just did not win work, the other was just using my numbers and (i found out later) building with 'in house' framers and rockers. I was decently busy, but it all came to a halt. I realize my error was being married to the job sites, with tools strapped on. I needed to get out more and sale my services to other GC's, study my market and see which GC's are doing well. This week, I've bid a little over $ 2 million in Hi-Rise work, and some garage re -frames. The problem is , when i do so many bids and get nothing, i fear i get complacent on the process b/c in the back of my mind is that voice 'ahh so what...you won't get it anyway'


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## jarvis design (May 6, 2008)

Mike, I know it sucks when you walk out of a customers house and don't have that warm fuzzy feeling. But, there are always exceptions to the rules!! You just never know - one or more of those people may come back after they get other prices - even if you are the highest.


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## buddy110 (Oct 3, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Not going to. The recession is coming to an end, it's a positive sign that bigger projects are coming back on the market. But that doesn't change the unrealistic consumer who still wants things done 30% cheaper.


Exactly. We're raising our prices 4% next year :thumbup:


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

If you read the context of the statement I was responding to you'd know why I was asking that.


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

This one? "Priced too high, why else?"

It sounded like you were saying he should lower his prices.
It wouldn't be the first time I misinterpreted something.


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## Builtmany (Dec 9, 2009)

$309,467 is what I've written since the end of the summer. I landed under 10k of work that I think there were no estimates even written for. I guess I have to start working for 40 cents on the dollar next year instead of 50. :sad:


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

tinner666 said:


> This one? "Priced too high, why else?"
> 
> It sounded like you were saying he should lower his prices.
> It wouldn't be the first time I misinterpreted something.


Yeah thats the one I meant :blush:


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

We're cool. Did you raise your prices too? I think most here raised prices.

I'm sure I'm misunderstanding. Not trying to bust your chops. It could be I'm just too tired to think straight.


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## tinner666 (Nov 3, 2004)

BTW, I don't lose too many because I'm high. I close about 75% of web leads. But I point out on my site that most bid comparisons are apples and grapes in reality. When I get a lead, they've already learned a lot about me and my service. I'm not interested in price shoppers. That's one reason I charge for proposals.


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

tinner666 said:


> We're cool. Did you raise your prices too? I think most here raised prices.
> 
> I'm sure I'm misunderstanding. Not trying to bust your chops. It could be I'm just too tired to think straight.


No problem, 
I have been raising my prices but evidently not enough.
I have more work than I want right now and have actually turned some away recently.
Trying to figure out how to grow to handle more, but don't want to grow too fast.
Its still really hard for to say no when asked to do proposals, but in these particular cases the potential clients did not want to wait for my schedule (about 3 months out)


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

:laughing: Here's an update :



> Thank you for coming out and for providing an estimate so quickly. We will be getting a couple more estimates and we need the following information to be able to compare your estimate accurately with other estimates.
> 
> 1. We would like a detailed breakdown of the actual costs for the following:
> · Demolition labor
> ...


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## go dart (Dec 6, 2005)

Mike Finley said:


> :laughing: Here's an update :


You'll win the minute you let your competition have this remodel. Really, who needs this kind of crap.


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## Chasing Dreams (Oct 12, 2009)

It still blows my mind that potential customers would have the nerve to ask for wholesale prices. 

Why yes Mrs. Smith we do offer wholesale pricing. I was under the understanding that we were remodeling only 1 bathroom for you. I don't remember you discussing the plans for the other 29 bathrooms you planned on remodeling so you could get the wholesale pricing.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Chasing Dreams said:


> It still blows my mind that potential customers would have the nerve to ask for wholesale prices.
> 
> Why yes Mrs. Smith we do offer wholesale pricing. I was under the understanding that we were remodeling only 1 bathroom for you. I don't remember you discussing the plans for the other 29 bathrooms you planned on remodeling so you could get the wholesale pricing.


Dont you just love those types? On the painting end we occasionally get the HO who wants sf pricing. "I only do sf pricing on large commercial jobs...and I dont do large commercial jobs"

"What kind of cabinet shop did you refer me to? They quoted $15K...I can get unfinished cabinets from HD for less than a third of that."

"This isnt a "K-Mart" house, but I want WalMart Pricing" (Honest HO statement)

And the list could go on and on.


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## Bill Z (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Finley said:


> :laughing: Here's an update :


That drives me crazy when people want all your knowledge and work for nothing. I think it comes from ignorance more than anything. 

I think I'd say... "Those figures and specifications wouldn't be useful for you to pass on to another contractor because it's just from my 30 years of hands-on experience renovating bathrooms. I have methods learned over those 30 years that other bidders may not be familiar with so it wouldn't come out the same if they try to follow our technique. I'd suggest you contact an architect and have him prepare an unbiased set of specifications and drawings so everyone will be bidding on the exact same thing. You ought to be able to find an architect to do that in the range of $1500. and he should have it about six weeks. Let me know."


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Chicken or the egg?

How are customers like this created?

I believe that if this customer meets with 10 contractors and asks the same thing from all 10 of them at least 8 of them are going to give him what he wants.

Who creates customers like this?

I think we do as an industry. Like a kid, they ask, they receive, they have learned that acting like this is acceptable.


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## kevjob (Aug 14, 2006)

Sound like the dude who called me about a week ago wanting all sorts of info like how much do I mark up? can he get the tub cheaper etc... Politely said we have a 350.00 estimate fee...... crickets..... ok well goodbye. :w00t:


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## buddy110 (Oct 3, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Who creates customers like this?
> 
> I think we do as an industry. Like a kid, they ask, they receive, they have learned that acting like this is acceptable.


 
Agreed to a point. Professionals such as yourself don't create them. The hacks and low ballers do.


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> Chicken or the egg?
> 
> How are customers like this created?
> 
> ...


Maybe its guys like me, who will use allowance and show the cost of the products.
I share number with my clients if that is the way the contract is structured.
Of course they can pick anything they want, I don't let them buy from their own sources though.
Just tally it all up and add your % or fixed fee.
Cost plus takes more paperwork but can be a good way to go with customers like this.
I know how some of you don't like cost plus or allowances but this method has been working well for me.
The challenge is selling the intangibles, service, customer experience etc.
Products are products anyone can buy them, its putting it all together that is challenging part.


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

bconley said:


> Maybe its guys like me, who will use allowance and show the cost of the products.
> I share number with my clients if that is the way the contract is structured.
> Of course they can pick anything they want, I don't let them buy from their own sources though.
> Just tally it all up and add your % or fixed fee.
> ...


All good except I'm not interest in being in business and being forced to operate off of a 15% profit margin.


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## buddy110 (Oct 3, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> All good except I'm not interest in being in business and being forced to operate off of a 15% profit margin.


 
Agreed. If my materials and labor cost more than 50% I'd retire :no:


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

Mike Finley said:


> All good except I'm not interest in being in business and being forced to operate off of a 15% profit margin.


Yeah, 15% profit maybe but not 15% gross margin


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## Mike Finley (Apr 28, 2004)

Right.

Let me say it another way :

All good except I'm not interest in being in business and being forced to let customers dictate my profit margin.


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## bconley (Mar 8, 2009)

Fair enough.


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## Heritage (Mar 20, 2007)

The great majority of my contracts are Cost-Plus OR Project Management. Rarely will I do Fixed Price.

The thing with these contracts is you gotta know how to wing it :thumbsup:

Mike, I would never advise you on anything. But I'm telling you from my own business you're missing a golden ticket with this one. 

My typical fee is Min. 15%, normally 20%.

Trust me, my profit is greater than that. Yes, it's more paperwork but the Pros far outweigh the Cons for me. Additionally, my closing ratios are higher because of them.

I could break down all the math right here and prove how you just can't lose.


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## joemeowers (Dec 23, 2009)

better than doing the work and then not getting paid. been there.


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## joemeowers (Dec 23, 2009)

I'm still crap out of 6 figures to some schmuck who I now have to pray doesn't declare bankruptcy when I attempt to put the legal fist in him.


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