# Air Admittance Vents



## westbrooklawn (Nov 8, 2007)

I am a landscape contractor, and member of this forum, but I don't know a lot about plumbing so I am looking for some help here. I'm building my own personal house... acting as my own GC. I contracted with a reputable plumber and they began the rough in work a couple days ago. I have not been able to be there while they were working, but in checking the job site yesterday, I see where they installed an AAV for the kitchen sink (downstairs on a 1 1/2 story house), and I don't see where holes have been drilled for roof venting of the other bathroom locations. They have terminated one vent through the roof for the upstairs bathroom. On new construction I would have expected roof venting of all plumbing... should I insist on this? I see the AAV as a way for them to save time, and not do the job properly... I also am leary of the long term performance of AAV's.

I'm sure AAV's will meet code, since our contract requires that... but we had no specific agreement on venting. For you professional plumbers out there, what would you insist on if it was your own house under construction?


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## 1goodplumber (Apr 26, 2008)

fire your plumber aav's are a last ditch effort to vent something. In a new construction home there is no need for them.


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

When using air admittance valves ,only one stack on the system needs to penetrate the roof but it is a crap system,but it works and is legal in many areas.The valve springs eventually fail and will need re-placement.Most inspectors would not like seeing this.Frickin new world plumbers,smarter than us old fools that do it the hard way aren't they?What does your inspector think about it?The homeowners must be made aware of the presence of aav as well or they'll be chasing sewer odors from now on.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

1goodplumber said:


> fire your plumber aav's are a last ditch effort to vent something. In a new construction home there is no need for them.


1. If his plumber is doing the work to code, and if there was no specific agreement about the venting arrangements, then for this guy to just up and fire the plumber is a breach of contract, unethical, and just flat out stupid.

2. It may be your opinion that AAV's are a last ditch effort to vent something. And you are allowed to have that opinion. But there are many fine plumbers out there who have a different opinion. 

3. To make the statement that in new construction there is no need for them is again, strictly your opinion. There are many places in new construction where an AAV is the perfect solution to a tough venting problem.

Your statements were not helpful.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

threaderman said:


> When using air admittance valves ,only one stack on the system needs to penetrate the roof but it is a crap system,but it works and is legal in many areas.The valve springs eventually fail and will need re-placement.Most inspectors would not like seeing this.Frickin new world plumbers,smarter than us old fools that do it the hard way aren't they?What does your inspector think about it?The homeowners must be made aware of the presence of aav as well or they'll be chasing sewer odors from now on.


1. Code legal AAVs have no spring to fail. 

2. If it is code legal it does not matter what the inspector says or likes. Inspectors do not have the legal right to enforce their own likes outside of the code. 

3. There are millions of AAVs out there. Very, very few have ever failed. At the same time, I have been on a number of calls for sewer smell because a code legal, vented to atmosphere vent wasn't doing it's job correctly. So just because a house has an AAV in it does not mean the owner is going to be chasing sewer smells. That is extrememly rare.

4. I am not talking about those crappy little "mickey mouse" vents that are legal only in mobile homes. Most of those will eventually fail. It isn't actually the spring that usually fails, it is the little rubber gasket. It will get hard or warp. When that happens, yes, the owner will be chasing sewer smells.

5. For the record, you don't have to like AAVs. I respect you enough to allow you to have your opinion. All I wish to do is set the record straight on a couple of issues.


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

22rifle said:


> 1. Code legal AAVs have no spring to fail.
> 
> 2. If it is code legal it does not matter what the inspector says or likes. Inspectors do not have the legal right to enforce their own likes outside of the code.
> 
> ...


You are right on the spring,or lack of,on the new aav valves. Dbl. checked my codes and the spring type are no longer allowed,though they were up until 2006 it looks like.That tells you how often I resort to using them,I don't ,except in island applications. For the record,I have seen my share of freeze ups where the spring doesn't flex.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

westbrooklawn said:


> I am a landscape contractor, and member of this forum, but I don't know a lot about plumbing so I am looking for some help here. I'm building my own personal house... acting as my own GC. I contracted with a reputable plumber and they began the rough in work a couple days ago. I have not been able to be there while they were working, but in checking the job site yesterday, I see where they installed an AAV for the kitchen sink (downstairs on a 1 1/2 story house), and I don't see where holes have been drilled for roof venting of the other bathroom locations. They have terminated one vent through the roof for the upstairs bathroom. On new construction I would have expected roof venting of all plumbing... should I insist on this? I see the AAV as a way for them to save time, and not do the job properly... I also am leary of the long term performance of AAV's.
> 
> I'm sure AAV's will meet code, since our contract requires that... but we had no specific agreement on venting. For you professional plumbers out there, what would you insist on if it was your own house under construction?


Based on my research and experience, in my own home I will vent to atmosphere where reasonably possible. I would have to save some SERIOUS bucks before I would use an AAV just to save money.

But I will use them in a heartbeat under the following circumstances.

1. To save a roof penetration if that penetration is for one vent only. I try to minimize my roof penetrations as much as possible. You will never see a "porcupine" roof on my jobs. One vent per bathroom group is the max. I see AAVs as a tool to help me minimize roof penetrations but I don't take that to an extreme. I still prefer venting to atmosphere.

2. Sink on an outside wall. I have a huge thing about pipes in an outside wall. Been on too many service calls for frozen pipes in outside walls. Again, I see AAVs as a tool to keep pipes out of the outside wall.

3. Island sinks. No further comment needed. 

4. Any other complicated vent piping run. I don't like lots of "twists and turns" in my piping. Clean and simple is my motto. On rare occasions I see an AAV as a tool to help with that. 

I average about 1.5 AAVs per house. Any house without one makes me happy. But neither do I worry about if I "need" to use one.

So why do I still prefer venting to atmosphere? Partly because a passive, no moving parts system is almost always preferable to a system with moving parts. The advantage may be slim but it's almost always there. Also, to be perfectly honest, I suspect part of my hesitation comes from being somewhat old fashioned in my thinking. I am the kind of guy who doesn't like any plastic on his guns. The kind of guy who loves to solder copper. Who butchers his own meat. Who smokes his own hams. And so on. How much of that mentality is responsible for my hesitation to embrace AAVs as the total system for venting? I don't know. Maybe partly. But I do try to be intellectually honest about my choices and opinions. I try to make sure I don't reject a better product just because of my tendency to be old fashioned. At the same time, I will never embrace a new product just because it saves a little time or money. I have to believe it is a better solution.

Bottom line for me, I do my best to evaluate a product honestly and fairly, then make my descisions based on whether it is in my customer's interest. Others are free to disagree with me. That's perfectly fine. It's America! I want to do the best job possible. My motto is "Do it right or go flip burgers." I am almost obsessive with making it perfect. If I do something that doesn't meet my standards I will rip it out and redo it at my expense. Doesn't matter whether it would have worked just fine. I am hard nosed about perfection to the point it is almost a character flaw. 

So one plumber might use some AAVs in their work and the next might completely reject them, yet both be obsessed with doing work of the highest quality. I try to be respectful of the guy who rejects AAVs based on his personal standards. I hope he will be respectful enough to accept that while I am just as passionate as he is about doing top notch work, I believe AAVs meet my standards of doing a top notch job. 

Back to your job... here is my advice...

1. Communicate with the plumber. Don't confront him. Just sit down and communicate your concerns to him.

2. If you feel uncomfortable using a lot of AAVs, guess what? It's your house. You have the right to not have them used. However, if there was no agreement about venting in the contract, and if he is planning to use a lot of AAVs, and if you don't want them, then you will have to pay for change orders. Be more than willing to pay for such change orders, but don't let the plumber take advantage of you either. 

3. If his work is not meeting code then you have the right to expect him to bring it into compliance witht he code.

4. If the plumber will not work with you then you have another issue on your hands. Be respectful and document every conversation in case you have to breach the contract. If it comes to that get a lawyer's opinion. But I hope it doesn't come to that.

5. Every single time I use an AAV I explain what, where, and why to the owner. They have the right to know and it prevents situations like yours.

Bottom line: It's your house. You have the right to have the work meet your standards. You may have to pay extra to get that done. You must be respectful and professional while working your way through this or it will create a mess.

Let us know how it works out. Hope I helped a bit.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

threaderman said:


> You are right on the spring,or lack of,on the new aav valves. Dbl. checked my codes and the spring type are no longer allowed,though they were up until 2006 it looks like.That tells you how often I resort to using them,I don't ,except in island applications. For the record,I have seen my share of freeze ups where the spring doesn't flex.


If you wanna talk about the spring type I will bash them right there with you.

BTW, I spent 2 years over in Poteau. (1999 to 2001) I kinda liked OK. Not too sure I liked their contractor licensing outfit. When I called about what it takes to get my license in OK the lady told me I had no business getting my license in OK, that there were enough plumbers, and that if I proceeded I wasn't being fair to the existing plumbers because I was taking their work, but she would send me the packet because she had to. Jeepers! That made me mad. Especially when I saw some of the horrendous work being done by the licensed plumbers over there in eastern OK.

I did run across some fine plumbers though. Just like everywhere, you have the hacks and the pros.


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

I wish I could type,I sure would eleaborate more often.Like I said,I know the applications of the aav but I missed the fine print which tells you the spring type is no longer legal,thanks for that.
I'm sorry you got treated so badly here by the authorities,it takes the Okes a bit to warm up to foreigners I've found.
And yes,like anywhere,plenty of quality craftsman but triple the amount of hacks.


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

threaderman said:


> I wish I could type,I sure would eleaborate more often.Like I said,I know the applications of the aav but I missed the fine print which tells you the spring type is no longer legal,thanks for that.
> I'm sorry you got treated so badly here by the authorities,it takes the Okes a bit to warm up to foreigners I've found.
> And yes,like anywhere,plenty of quality craftsman but triple the amount of hacks.


As long as you didn't feel dissed by my post to you I am happy.


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

I'll be honest ,I did not not read or did not retain the fact that the approved units are spring-less,but bet I retain it now!
Let me fail 1 inspection because of it though and it's a lesson learned for life :laughing:.Failed inspections just burn it right into long-term memory!


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## Moscow (May 3, 2005)

22rifle said:


> 1. Code legal AAVs have no spring to fail.
> 
> 2. If it is code legal it does not matter what the inspector says or likes. Inspectors do not have the legal right to enforce their own likes outside of the code.
> 
> ...


I not only think they are junk I now they are junk. They just came legal here in Idaho only for residential construction and have already seen many fail. So as the inspector in Moscow I have passed a ruling that no AAV will be installed on any new home no if's and or buts. The great thing is my opinon is the only one that counts.
Justin


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

Moscow said:


> So as the inspector in Moscow I have passed a ruling that no AAV will be installed on any new home no if's and or buts. The great thing is my opinon is the only one that counts.
> Justin


Don't you wish! :laughing:


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## Moscow (May 3, 2005)

22rifle said:


> Don't you wish! :laughing:


I was just joking. I have to apologize to every body that took my post out of contex. As an inspector I will only follow the code and the state rule. The state of Idaho has passed AAV but only for residential construction and in the home AAV's can only be on island kichen sink and for remodels that it put undo hard ship on the homeowner to install a vtr. I hope this clears a few thing up. The city of moscow can make a rule and pass it through the town counsle to not allow AAV on new construction if it choose to but that will have to wait untile next code adobtion.

Good luck to all 
Justin


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## 22rifle (Apr 23, 2008)

Moscow said:


> I was just joking. I have to apologize to every body that took my post out of contex. As an inspector I will only follow the code and the state rule. The state of Idaho has passed AAV but only for residential construction and in the home AAV's can only be on island kichen sink and for remodels that it put undo hard ship on the homeowner to install a vtr. I hope this clears a few thing up. The city of moscow can make a rule and pass it through the town counsle to not allow AAV on new construction if it choose to but that will have to wait untile next code adobtion.
> 
> Good luck to all
> Justin


You rock!


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## genecarp (Mar 16, 2008)

*agree with everything , almost*



22rifle said:


> 1. Code legal AAVs have no spring to fail.
> 
> 2. If it is code legal it does not matter what the inspector says or likes. Inspectors do not have the legal right to enforce their own likes outside of the code.
> 
> ...


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## threaderman (Nov 15, 2007)

You cannot win.Not if it's in writing like they do around here.I'm licensed in about 10 municipalities here and many have their own addendums that you must follow.You can purchase most for under $10.00.


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## Herk (Aug 1, 2007)

I live in Idaho and was unaware that AAVs had been approved for anything but trailers. Maybe they thought it was better that I didn't know. Anyway, There are a few occasions where I think they might be useful, such as an added laundry on an old back porch where going through the roof is nearly impossible because of the condition of the roof.

Personally, I'd prefer to have vents through the roof in all cases and you could ask the plumbers how much more it would cost to do that. If it's common practice for them to plumb that way in your state and you accepted their bid, they have every right to use AAVs, unless VTRs are stipulated in the contract.


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## Ron The Plumber (Oct 10, 2006)

Herk said:


> I live in Idaho and was unaware that AAVs had been approved for anything but trailers. Maybe they thought it was better that I didn't know.


Odd I have just learned also Studor vents are code approved now here in Oregon.

Don't care for them, but if there is no options either for structural conditions, or there is absolutely no other way, last resort, like in a remodel to get a vtr out I will use them.

I can't believe I'm talking like this. :laughing:


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Odd I have just learned also Studor vents are code approved now here in Oregon.
> 
> Don't care for them, but if there is no options either for structural conditions, or there is absolutely no other way, last resort, like in a remodel to get a vtr out I will use them.
> 
> I can't believe I'm talking like this. :laughing:


OK, who are you and what have you done with Ron?


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