# sound proof



## kyastas0 (Jan 6, 2006)

Hello guys I have a customer who wants to sound proof his ceiling in the basemant. Because he is living in the house and rents the basemant. So his problem is the noise from basemant, he already kicked out one of his tenants because her's boyfriend used to play music louder. Now he wants me to do something that he woudnt be able to hear what is hapening in basemant and that tenants from basemant couldnt hear whats hapening in the house.

Also I have no idea how much to charge, because I do kichen ant bathroom remodeling most of the time and this kind of job got first time.

Thank you guys!
You are the best!:thumbsup:


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

No matter what you do, he's not going to be 100% happy (I'm assuming that we're dealing with joists here). Sound will travel through them no matter what you do.

Different materials stop or slow down different frequencies. The matrix is usually a combination of products that can be many (up to 14") thick and composed of many materials at different spacings. 

I usually spec. materials used in yacht engine rooms. They are designed to quiet everything from the high pitched whine of turbos to the dull thump of a large diesel. The stuff ain't cheap!


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Use RC (Resilient Channel), after filling the joist bays with fiberglass, then double layer of 5/8" rock.


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

maj, sorry to say that aint giong to do doodly. Solid fiberglass sheets will break down some of the higher to mid range freqs but not enough to matter. Fiberglass batt is useless against sound as is drywall.

Sound is similar to lightwaves. The two actually join at a frequency point. Similar to radio waves leading to light frequencies. All same salt, more better.

You want multiple densities at resonance distances.


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Teetorbilt said:


> maj, sorry to say that aint giong to do doodly. Solid fiberglass sheets will break down some of the higher to mid range freqs but not enough to matter. Fiberglass batt is useless against sound as is drywall.
> 
> Sound is similar to lightwaves. The two actually join at a frequency point. Similar to radio waves leading to light frequencies. All same salt, more better.
> 
> You want multiple densities at resonance distances.


Well, at least I offered some HELPFUL information, Teetor. Do you really think he's going to go out and buy some of that "secret" yacht material? 

I would like to have some FACTS about the use of sound control fiberglass, RC, & drywall not reducing the sound transfer between floors & walls.


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## Brushslingers (Jul 28, 2006)

I've done a few sound rooms, you would have to "float" the ceiling to get rid of sound transference through the joists. Sheetrock is useless, most people that build sound rooms use MDF on a floating wall system and then cover it.


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## doubleaction (Oct 22, 2005)

Try Quiet Rock http://www.quietsolution.com/index.html, and then between the joists.


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## Double-A (Jul 3, 2006)

Teetorbilt said:


> I usually spec. materials used in yacht engine rooms. They are designed to quiet everything from the high pitched whine of turbos to the dull thump of a large diesel. The stuff ain't cheap!


The only thing I've ever found on a yacht that was cheap was the owner.


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## Big E (Jun 15, 2004)

I would think the most economical solution would be a drop-type ceiling. If the ceiling height is an issue, there are "zero-clearance" drop ceilings where there are 2 grids, and the panels are sandwiched in between, tight against the joists. I actually used these on my own basement, which I rent out btw, and I really like them. I think they're easier to install than regular drop ceilings and you don't lose 4+ inches of headroom. Noise is definitely reduced, but certainly not soundproof. www.ceilinglink.com

Also, pay attention to where the HVAC ducts, they can transmit a ton of sound.


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## kyastas0 (Jan 6, 2006)

Thank you all !!!!
I'm not sure yet but problably I'll go wit quiet rock 530. But thank you very much guys! Like I said you are the BEST!:thumbsup:


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## katttfishh (Jun 10, 2005)

The standard for soundproofing between floors around here )SF Bay Area) has been as Maj suggested. Fiberglass, rc channel, double rock and if you want to take it further add glue up ceiling tile. It dont stop it all but it puts a big dent in it. There are better ways but they also include lots of money. Most people are happy with the above unless its a recording studio. I did some of the soundproofing for Dolby Labs and Skywalker Ranch and they did some interesting stuff but it was major money. 



kyastas0 said:


> Hello guys I have a customer who wants to sound proof his ceiling in the basemant. Because he is living in the house and rents the basemant. So his problem is the noise from basemant, he already kicked out one of his tenants because her's boyfriend used to play music louder. Now he wants me to do something that he woudnt be able to hear what is hapening in basemant and that tenants from basemant couldnt hear whats hapening in the house.
> 
> Also I have no idea how much to charge, because I do kichen ant bathroom remodeling most of the time and this kind of job got first time.
> 
> ...


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## slickshift (Jun 14, 2005)

For sound proofing, a layer of this stuff under the Sheetrock works well








Vinyl Sound Barrier is used to block unwanted noise.
Increases Wall Mass without increasing its Depth
-- only 1/8" thick
Prevents unwanted sound transmission through
walls, ceilings, and floors.
STC=27
54 inches wide.
Available in full rolls 20', 30', 60'
... or by the linear foot.

Weight: 1 lb. per sq. ft.
Thickness: 1/8”


A wall of homosote under the Sheetrock works well also
Firring strips and a pocket of air between can help with that

The best thing is to use multiple density materials
Like a layer of homosote, a layer of VSB, furring strips (air pocket), and then sheetrock

If you can suspend the ceiling, there are specific sound absorbers that can replace drop ceiling panels
For example, if it's the bass bleed through from the rock band or home theater, bass eater drop ceiling panels work wonders


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## DaveH (Jun 2, 2006)

Maj is right on! :thumbsup: 
I have done many music studios with his method and never had a problem. The RC channel greatly reduces the vibration, the fiberglass reduces the sound transfer, and the drywall reduces the immanant sound. They all work in conjuction with one another. Teetor is tight in the fact you won't kill all the noise this way, but enough to where most things outside of gunfire will be shut out....


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## Teetorbilt (Feb 12, 2004)

These sites will explain. Acoustibloc, EAR Specialty Composites and Soundown.


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Another very simple solution is to furnish the apartment or basement with alot of overstuffed furniture. And thick carpet. These things all help to absorb sound waves.


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## AtlanticWBConst (Mar 29, 2006)

Another Vote for RC Channel, sound proofing insulation and double 5/8" S/R.

There is only so much you can do within the parameters of normal construction, before you start getting into $$$ and customized soundproofing - Like in a Sound Studio or Home Entertainment room.


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## katttfishh (Jun 10, 2005)

I've been a licensed acoustical contractor since 1984 and if there is one thing I've learned it is that sound cannot be explained to someone not in the biz. Nrc.stc,cac is all greek to anyone not in the business. I dont even think acoustical engineers understand each other. Its more like a science at with least a million variables. 



Teetorbilt said:


> These sites will explain. Acoustibloc, EAR Specialty Composites and Soundown.


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## kgphoto (May 9, 2006)

You can read in the gyp manual about different assemblies and the resultant STC ratings. It all depends on money and space what you can put in.

You can try the simple solution and see if it works. If it is not to his satisfaction, bring in an additional layer. Start with insulation, RC channel and drywall. Then add acoustical tiles. Then the sound deadening specialty stuff.

I mean how quiet does it really need to be? STC of 50 is what our code(LA) calls out for area separation walls between units.


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

kgphoto said:


> You can read in the gyp manual about different assemblies and the resultant STC ratings. It all depends on money and space what you can put in.
> 
> *You can try the simple solution and see if it works. If it is not to his satisfaction, bring in an additional layer. Start with insulation, RC channel and drywall. Then add acoustical tiles. Then the sound deadening specialty stuff.*
> I mean how quiet does it really need to be? STC of 50 is what our code(LA) calls out for area separation walls between units.


That's exactly right, which is why I suggested it in the first place. I mean it is a basement apartment for C's sake!!!! Who want's to spend thousands of dollars for a cheap basement apartment! Sure, there are dozens of sound deadening recipes & products out there, but for this situation, why go with the most expensive and hard to find product?



> I usually spec. materials used in yacht engine rooms.


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## James Boyd (Jun 12, 2006)

In the past months I've done a bit of research. One thing I've found is that there's a lot of conflicting information out there among newbies and pros.

Here's my findings:

STC is a poor measurement. It doesn't measure low frequencies, which is where the problems are.

*De-couple the walls and ceilings*. RC isn't worth squat because the material varies greatly by manufacturer. The material is way too stiff these days. The RC industry itself (Dietrich) indicates that 85% of all installs are short circuited, sag and fail over time. Huge source of lawsuits. Doesn't do anything in the low frequencies. The USG STC numbers that you see referenced...? They are old, and used a type of RC that is not even available now. And it does nothing for low frequency problems. What's better? Staggered studs or double studs. Space a problem? Use a ripped 2x6 as top and bottom plates. Space studs 24" on center, rather than 16".

*Insulation does little on its own. *Doesn't do anything in the lower frequencies as teetor said. That said, every sound room or theater has it because it does some good.

*Mass is important*. One of the best sources is drywall. It's cheap and easy to use. No worse than MDF on a pound-for-pound basis and a lot cheaper. The problem is again in the low frequencies where you need a buttload of mass to do anything. How about that Mass loaded vinyl rolls? Expensive, heavy as hell, hard to install, and is just another source of mass. About as effective as more drywall. Don't believe it? Look at the lab data. Forget personal experiences... look at the lab data.

*Damping*. This is the area of greatest growth in opportunity, in my opinion. This can significantly reduce the resonances that are the problem that Teeter so correctly pointed out. Damping can be extremely effective in the low frequencies. You can use Quiet Rock or Supress pre-manufactured board, or use Green Glue or Quiet Glue and make your own for cheap.

So what's the best wall? Staggered or double stud (decoupled) with insulation (absorption) double drywall on each side with the damping compound of your choice. 

James


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

Ummm, It's been a while,but I believe the original post was for a basement ceiling.


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## James Boyd (Jun 12, 2006)

For ceilings?

Decouple first:

Resilient clips + damped drywall

or

Wood furring strip every 24" + damped drywall. 

Insulate with fiberglass in either case.


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## kyastas0 (Jan 6, 2006)

OK. What I did was 
1.	We cut the holes in the existing ceiling
2.	Made boxes from plywood and vinyl barrier, for recessed lights 
3.	Installed insulation
4.	Then we installed vinyl barrier (that heavy stuff)
5.	Sealed all gaps and nail holes with soundproof calking 
6.	Rubber clips and the channels
7.	5/8 drywall 

Guess what ! All that does not work….. We called to company who sell us that vinyl barrier they told me that they hear that first time, but any way they will send me for free some kind of glue and they want me to put the glue on the ceiling and install another 5/8 drywall layer. So I hope it will help. :whistling


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## maj (Mar 13, 2006)

kyastas0 said:


> OK. What I did was
> 1.	We cut the holes in the existing ceiling
> 2.	Made boxes from plywood and vinyl barrier, for recessed lights
> 3.	Installed insulation
> ...



:laughing: :laughing: 

So if I got this right....... The company that sells a special soundproofing product just told you to do exactly what I said way back when you first posted this? !!!!!! :laughing: :whistling :whistling


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## tride (Sep 5, 2006)

I have been trying to find good sound reduction as my complex was built 35 yrs ago with 2X4 walls to separate the units. When owners remodel they want quite. I have found the best I can do is many thicknesses. 2 sheets of drywall 1, 5/8-1,1/2 the studys I have done say diferent thicknesses help kill diferent sound waves. Seemed to make sence to me. Vinyl,5/8" drywall,1/2"drywall,plaster best I've had so far


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## James Boyd (Jun 12, 2006)

I'd guess the "Glue" they are recommending is a damping material, not construction adhesive. 

The older technology was to use the vinyl barrier, and / or different thicknesses of drywall, soundboard etc. Today, the best performance available is damping the panels with special compounds. 

The clips are very effective, but can add more of a problem if they are attached to existing drywall. You want to attach them to the underside of the joists themselves.

James


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## kyastas0 (Jan 6, 2006)

maj said:


> :laughing: :laughing:
> 
> So if I got this right....... The company that sells a special soundproofing product just told you to do exactly what I said way back when you first posted this? !!!!!! :laughing: :whistling :whistling


yes your were right! But problem that it didnt do much. :whistling


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## James Boyd (Jun 12, 2006)

kyastas0,

So what did you wind up doing? What is the glue they sent you?

James


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## kyastas0 (Jan 6, 2006)

James Boyd said:


> kyastas0,
> 
> So what did you wind up doing? What is the glue they sent you?
> 
> James


I havent got it yet it, it should come next week. And like you said before it's not going to be any construction adhesive, it's some kind of "special"  
stuff. I'll let you know what was it and if it worked  :whistling


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## James Boyd (Jun 12, 2006)

Well, good luck, and keep us posted!

What the heck is under that truck in your picture?


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## kyastas0 (Jan 6, 2006)

James Boyd said:


> Well, good luck, and keep us posted!
> 
> What the heck is under that truck in your picture?


Man is under that truck. He is fixing something :no: :whistling


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## kyastas0 (Jan 6, 2006)

here is biger


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## James Boyd (Jun 12, 2006)

That's hysterical!!!


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## varmint (Jul 20, 2005)

Looks like he's just welding the gas tank a little.


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