# F****** guys who pretend to be GC's



## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

pick his brain. where is he getting clients, how is he closing clients, he's not super cheap i'm assuming because he can afford you.. 
Then next thing you know it will be you calling to get help when he gets busted haha.


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## wobblies (Jul 17, 2019)

cedarboarder said:


> pick his brain. where is he getting clients, how is he closing clients, he's not super cheap i'm assuming because he can afford you..


This project he wants me to do is a large detached garage on a $800,000 dollar property along the "main drag" of lake superior where I live. He met the client at the curling club. So the client says, " Oh you're a carpenter? Well, I want to build this big garage that needs a variance and I got a quote for $90,000 from x builder which is too much, I'd like it to be like $60,000" so my acquaintance shoots himself in the foot right there and says I can do that and I know a contractor! Then I get the call.

Project needs full site prep, first a variance for front yard set back (even though its a huge lot, its in the "fancy neighborhood"). Full excavation and grade work, insulated reinforced drained slab, then he wants to build a concrete block stem wall on top of the slab? so thats a crazy detail instead of pouring footings then a stem wall and then the slab inside-- then big huge windows, big door, big look-outs so drop trusses etc... Its a big job. And the guy doesn't even want it insulated? And my "acquaintence" is knee deep in trying to get estimates-- there isn't even an approved drawing. But i know its more than $60,000. 

Just feels wrong. I'm trying to figure out why he'd leap into that so fast.



I charge $50/hr. maybe not enough.


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## dave_dj1 (Mar 16, 2010)

Well we don't have licenses here and I've always thought it would help to have everyone legit but then I realized that there will always be the "builders" that don't play by or follow any rules. Sadly they don't really even want a legit business, they just want the quick easy money and move to the next un-suspecting soul. If they should get "busted" they just lay low for a bit or move to another town and do it all over again.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

wobblies said:


> " Oh you're a carpenter? Well, I want to build this big garage that needs a variance and I got a quote for $90,000 from x builder which is too much, I'd like it to be like $60,000" so my acquaintance shoots himself in the foot right there and says I can do that and I know a contractor! Then I get the call.
> 
> But i know its more than $60,000.
> 
> I charge $50/hr. maybe not enough.


I would advise him not to let the client set the price of a project! 

From your perspective; if you need the work, can stand working with the guy and if he is willing to pay you hourly with no risk, then you may want to consider it. Just be sure to stay ahead of him financially. Expect your "friendship" to end when he starts losing money on this project...


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## wobblies (Jul 17, 2019)

NJ Contractor said:


> I would advise him not to let the client set the price of a project!
> 
> From your perspective; if you need the work, can stand working with the guy and if he is willing to pay you hourly with no risk, then you may want to consider it. Just be sure to stay ahead of him financially. Expect your "friendship" to end when he starts losing money on this project...


I have that gut feeling-- where your nuts climb up and the air gets cold with future woes! Thanks for the frank discussion-- its made me think about somethings in a new light.

many thanks gentleman.


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## TimNJ (Sep 7, 2005)

I knew a guy like that.
A couple of times he came to me when there was a permit job he wanted to do.
I just set the parameters.

I price it. I run it. We split the profits.

Worked very good for me. No sales to do with the customer. 
All I had to do was make sure the job passed inspection. Piece of cake.

Good money is good money.


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## cedarboarder (Mar 30, 2015)

job sounds like something I'll see on the tv show to catch a contractor. sad they stopped filming due to lawsuits. 

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## Panhdlce (Jan 16, 2020)

What really irks me in my area are "Brief case Builders" that never have swung a hammer, or used a tool in their life. Most are "Real Estate Agents" who are "double dipping" clients


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## OG1 (Dec 23, 2019)

A license in no way makes anyone a good contractor. Period. The same goes the other way for the guy without the license. Education and respect are gained. Talent is radiated. Licenses are bought.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

In NJ the registration(GC's are not licensed) is a stupid formality with no testing attached to it. I forget to renew mine every year until I get the thing in the mail. In 8 years, literally nobody has asked to see my registration card. 

OP, thanks for hanging out here and if anybody seems like they're giving you an a-hole response, don't sweat it. Stick around. They're probably just busting your chops. I don't know what chops are, but it's more polite than saying balls. 

For your situation, I have to agree with Idothat. If you can stand this guy as a friend, take him out for a beer and explain why he's being an idiot. No matter what the licensing requirements are, there's no way it's so impossible that he can't do it. If he wants to use you for your license(which has happened to me before) just make sure he's your subcontractor, being payed accordingly, and that you're running the show.

As for that job, it sounds like an awesome opportunity. If you're capable of doing the work on a 90k-ish garage, go talk to the homeowner, and explain to him that if it's your job, what your stupid friend said was a best case scenario and he was overlooking multiple details. Give the HO the real quote and if you get it, awesome. Don't cut your price for anybody. 
You can definitely take what I'm saying as gospel. I just finished up a tree fiddy job replacing a piece of moulding that a dog chewed up. I'm basically the Hank Aaron of carpentry.


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## rrk (Apr 22, 2012)

Easy Gibson said:


> In NJ the registration(GC's are not licensed) is a stupid formality with no testing attached to it. I forget to renew mine every year until I get the thing in the mail. In 8 years, literally nobody has asked to see my registration card.
> 
> OP, thanks for hanging out here and if anybody seems like they're giving you an a-hole response, don't sweat it. Stick around. They're probably just busting your chops. I don't know what chops are, but it's more polite than saying balls.
> 
> ...


Clearly you don’t pull permits then
Every time you pull a permit they need a copy of your registration card then it is on file with the town and the copy is left in the permit packet. Every town has to do this. 
Your registration number is supposed to be on the side of your truck, if no number on your truck the customer can not pay and file a complaint with possible fine up to $500

I know a painter who got a $200 fine for no number after he was warned once before


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

In Cali you have to show at least 4 years at a journey level for the license you are trying to get. So that means you'll need to have apprentice time under your belt. With that said, you realistically have to have 7 or 8 years of experience.

They require solid proof as well. W-2's taxes etc. 

One of the hardest licenses to get here is a GC license. 


Mike.
_______________


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

rrk said:


> Clearly you don’t pull permits then
> Every time you pull a permit they need a copy of your registration card then it is on file with the town and the copy is left in the permit packet. Every town has to do this.
> Your registration number is supposed to be on the side of your truck, if no number on your truck the customer can not pay and file a complaint with possible fine up to $500
> 
> I know a painter who got a $200 fine for no number after he was warned once before


I haven't done a permitted job in... jeez, probably 5 years. Small ball all day for me. 
There really should be a different registration for GC's vs light carpenters. It's silly that there's no GC exam of any kind here. I try to be a diligent person, but I see a lot of people that.... aren't. We'll leave it at that. 
I really struggle with what the "right" situation is. I've seen unpermitted work that was worlds better than permitted, inspected work in our area. It all comes down to the guy doing the work and whether or not they give a damn. There's so many ways to skin the cat. The letter of the law way usually falls short of what's actually a proper job.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Easy Gibson said:


> It's silly that there's no GC exam of any kind here.
> 
> I really struggle with what the "right" situation is. I've seen unpermitted work that was worlds better than permitted, inspected work in our area.


Amen, the amount of "GC's" here is staggering. And I use that term loosely.

I always pull a permit for jobs which require extensive framing, electrical and plumbing like baths, kitchens, additions, etc... Handyman type repair work does not require a permit. 

The other certifications to be aware of are the EPA Lead RRP Firm Cert. and Lead Renovator Cert.. That is a big fine if you get caught doing a project in a structure built prior to 1978 without it.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

The RRP thing annoyed the hell out of me because it was basically just mandating you to do what you should have already been doing, but making you waste more plastic and trash bags in the process.
Easy peasy, just triple bag the radioactive pieces of old plaster, gooseneck tie the bag, then wrap with an obsessive amount of duck tape, then you can return the lead to the earth, where if ****ing came from in the first place.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

I hear ya, bottom line is to contain the dust, don't let it contaminate anyone or anybody and clean up when you're done...


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

I took the RRP class years ago. Let it expire because I decided it’s not even worth dealing with. I’ll do the job if all the hot material is gone before I start, XRF conforms there is no lead anywhere or I’ll pass. Plenty of post ‘78 houses for me to work on.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Very few post '78 homes where I am, so I comply and pay for all the associated costs...


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## Brass (Jan 14, 2020)

Idothat said:


> Explain to this guy ( as a friend) why he needs to get legal
> 
> Also (as a contractor ) explain to him when it your name , and license, on the line , you call the shots
> 
> If you can’t come to an understanding , tell him to shove off


That's hitting the nail on the head....Couldn't agree more.


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

EricBrancard said:


> I took the RRP class years ago. Let it expire because I decided it’s not even worth dealing with. I’ll do the job if all the hot material is gone before I start, XRF conforms there is no lead anywhere or I’ll pass. Plenty of post ‘78 houses for me to work on.


See, that's insane. This is the kind of government overreach that makes me side with the fringe lunatics. 
Why on Earth should you have to limit the jobs you take because half a dozen times some moron dusted out his whole house and killed his kids?
Some eggs are gonna get broken to make this progress omelette.

EVERYBODY is already doing basic dust containment. That the dust could be lead really shouldn't be changing any part of your process. 
If they're the type that would dust out a house, they're almost certainly the type to ignore RRP, if they've ever heard of it in the first place. The only places I've ever seen it mentioned were places that reputable businessmen hang out.

Ooooooooooobaaaaaaamaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!


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## dave_dj1 (Mar 16, 2010)

Not to hijack this thread but along the RRP line, a homeowner can do whatever they want in their own house. So why bother?


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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

....and I did! Man, you should have seen the amount of lead that went straight into the damn dumpster when I was working on my house. Don't need a permit to throw out old doors. Out they went.

I am homeowner, hear me roar. 

Now god forbid I put on my business hat and did that at the neighbor's house. Banished to Devil's Island!


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

When my customers ask me to do something shady, they always say, "I would never sue you". Then I tell them, "it's not you that will sue it's your insurance company".


Mike.
_______________


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

dave_dj1 said:


> Not to hijack this thread but along the RRP line, a homeowner can do whatever they want in their own house. So why bother?


To avoid a potential fine, probation or jail time. As well as legal action from a homeowner if their child tests positive for lead exposure...

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/epas-lead-based-paint-enforcement-helps-protect-children-and-vulnerable-communities-2018


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Calidecks said:


> When my customers ask me to do something shady, they always say, "I would never sue you". Then I tell them, "it's not you that will sue it's your insurance company".
> 
> 
> Mike.
> _______________


or family members....

Tom


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## 480sparky (Feb 1, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> or family members....
> 
> Tom


.... after the funeral.....


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## Lettusbee (May 8, 2010)

Speaking of shady contractors

I know for a fact there are license holders who do nothing but pimp out their ability to get permits. 









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## Easy Gibson (Dec 3, 2010)

How could that ever be worth it for you if you're the license holder?


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

Just an observation-
Unless something has changed in the last few years - The only states with any sort of authentic contractor licensing are CA,OR,WA,ID,UT,NV,AZ,NM & FL - The balance of the country is a basic free-for-all.

Contractors in the west generally have little clue as to what a cluster the residential construction world is east of the continental divide - Likewise, contractors east of the continental divide, (save for Florida), are typically naive as to what an actual state contracting licensing program/board is. It's apples vs. oranges - kindergarten vs. college.

Keeping is brief: (all IMHO of course)
CA, (& states w/licensing)
- Success based on merit & it is very competitive - A lot is price-driven as contractors are generally held to similar standards - It means something to have a contractors license - You're competing with peers who for the most-part are proficient & knowledgeable in their craft. The consumer is generally confident contractors aren't complete idiots &/or lacking trade as well as business knowledge/ethics. Contractors must prove authentic experience, pass tests, (real tests - not "open book"), on trade knowledge as well as business & accounting practices. Provide and maintain a bond with the state, have generally adequate credit worthiness. There is a contractors state license board which holds contractors responsible. Nothing's perfect, but "generally" speaking.

CO, (& states lacking licensing) -
- Based on "salesmanship" - all about sales & $- Anyone & everyone can be a "contractor", (i.e., hailstorms bring out all the self-proclaimed experts...Heck, insurance adjusters magically become roofing contractors) - The residential home improvement market is a complete cesspool of unscrupulous, unethical shysters - A good lot of them aren't necessarily crooks, they just don't know any better, but should never be in business. CO is a hard, mean place for a legitimate contractor to operate - on the other hand, it's a haven for wannabe's & crooks - The good ol' boy established outfits like it too, as do the attorneys, (probably why state licensing can never take hold in that state - it makes for a cash cow for attorneys as consumers have no other means than the standard "judicial system" when they're ripped-off and we all know how that goes).

BTW - I have & do operate in both CA, UT & CO and have to say, while I'm no fan of big brother, (gov't meddling with us), I much prefer operating "business-wise" as per CA & UT state licensing as opposed to CO's idiotic free-for-all.


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

While there is no state licensing in Colorado each county and/or municipal jurisdiction has their own licensing – if they choose to do so. I believe I hold 6 different licenses today and have been licensed in 16 different jurisdictions in my 30-year career.

State licensing would be sooooooooo much simpler, consistent and cost-effective. “Free-for-all” is not quite appropriate.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

DaVinciRemodel said:


> While there is no state licensing in Colorado each county and/or municipal jurisdiction has their own licensing – if they choose to do so. I believe I hold 6 different licenses today and have been licensed in 16 different jurisdictions in my 30-year career.
> 
> State licensing would be sooooooooo much simpler, consistent and cost-effective. “Free-for-all” is not quite appropriate.


I took a sample of a Colorado Liscence test for TAB - did yall used to be state licenced?


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## DaVinciRemodel (Oct 7, 2009)

Not since I’ve been here (1980). We take a national test that is administered by a third party – don’t remember the name. The results of that test are accepted by most jurisdictions – a few have their own test. Then they allllllll take your money! I think I pay as little as $100 in one jurisdiction and as much as $900 in the most expensive.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

DaVinciRemodel said:


> Not since I’ve been here (1980). We take a national test that is administered by a third party – don’t remember the name. The results of that test are accepted by most jurisdictions – a few have their own test. Then they allllllll take your money! I think I pay as little as $100 in one jurisdiction and as much as $900 in the most expensive.


Just checked - it was Californias. Been a few years. Took almost half a day for 100 dollar gift card lol

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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

Funny thing about states with licensing vs no licensing...

I don't have any hard references to quote, but it's my impression that houses fall down (or remain standing) with pretty much the same frequency in both areas.

But they do generally cost noticeably more to build in the licensing states.


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## griz (Nov 26, 2009)

Tinstaafl said:


> Funny thing about states with licensing vs no licensing...
> 
> I don't have any hard references to quote, but it's my impression that houses fall down (or remain standing) with pretty much the same frequency in both areas.
> 
> But they do generally cost noticeably more to build in the licensing states.


i don't think it as much of a quality issue as being licensed by the state provides protections for clients as well as employees.

take JAWS for an example.

no state licensing, but he carries insurances and is a high quality contractor judging by the work he gets.


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## OG1 (Dec 23, 2019)

Many states have a set limit on home construction that if not crossed does not require a state license but most municipalities that have building depts, require a local license. All states require a license for commercial work for reasons of public safety. 

All states and municipalities require licensing for the big 3 safety and health contractors or MEP's. (Mechanical, Electrical, and Plumbing)

Every person who hires someone to work on their home, shares in the safety of that structure as they themselves, are the ones who live there. A commercial structure is different as the owner of that structure is rarely in it, and everyone who enters, assumes they are protected and safe.

Cost is a big factor in licensing and enforcement and homeowners are the biggest opponents to added cost.


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## Tinstaafl (Jan 6, 2008)

OG1 said:


> Many states have a set limit on home construction that if not crossed does not require a state license but most municipalities that have building depts, require a local license. All states require a license for commercial work for reasons of public safety.


None of that is true in PA.



> All states and municipalities require licensing for the big 3 safety and health contractors or MEP's. (Mechanical, Electrical, and Plumbing)


No state licensing in PA for any of those. A few of the larger municipalities do require licensing, issued by them, within their boundaries.


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## OG1 (Dec 23, 2019)

Tinstaafl said:


> OG1 said:
> 
> 
> > Many states have a set limit on home construction that if not crossed does not require a state license but most municipalities that have building depts, require a local license. All states require a license for commercial work for reasons of public safety.
> ...


Pennsylvania does require state permits where you are essentially licensing each job. Most states that require state licensing, do not require state permits.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

OG1 said:


> Many states have a set limit on home construction that if not crossed does not require a state license but most municipalities that have building depts, require a local license. All states require a license for commercial work for reasons of public safety.
> 
> All states and municipalities require licensing for the big 3 safety and health contractors or MEP's. (Mechanical, Electrical, and Plumbing)
> 
> ...


 No state commercial licensing and Texas. You do have to pull a permit with the county and get an Ada/TDL R number from the state for your disability access


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## OG1 (Dec 23, 2019)

Jaws said:


> OG1 said:
> 
> 
> > Many states have a set limit on home construction that if not crossed does not require a state license but most municipalities that have building depts, require a local license. All states require a license for commercial work for reasons of public safety.
> ...


Just pulled a permit in Dallas, all contractors on this list must be licensed. All of those with an asterisk must have a state license.

Backflow Contractor* 

Mechanical Contractor* 

Demolition Contractor 

Moving Contractor 

Electrical Contractor* 

Plumbing Contractor* 

Energy Inspector 

Pool Contractor 

Fence Contractor 

Roofing Contractor 

Fire Alarm Contractor* 

Sign Contractor 

Fire Sprinkler Contractor* 

Sign Electrician Contractor* 

Foundation Contractor 

TDH (Asbestos)* 

General Building Contractor 

Tree Removal Contractor 

Irrigation Contractor* 

Utility Contractor 

*


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## NYCB (Sep 20, 2010)

Jaws said:


> Check out private work too, NYCB. Talk to local places like plants and factory's. Stuff like this demo/pour for drain for a new machine, great money and only a week job but 30 hours notice. Lol. It's more expansive than the pic.
> 
> Just a Bosch Brute, Bobcat 331 and a Xat skid steer with a breaker. 2 guys, 3 for pour day. If you can front it and let their 30 day net take place your in for that kind of stuff. Which turned into a lot of big stuff for me as well as shown in Pics thread over the years
> 
> ...


If things keep up like this year did, residential will be more than enough to keep me busy.

I've done a little bit of that type of work, I'll do anything as long as it pays.

I did a factory floor once and the guy didn't know where he wanted all his machines, so he had us pour the whole thing 12" thick so he could move them whenever he wanted.

That was interesting.


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

NYCB-
Good thing about gov't work is that it's generally based on merit/ability rather than salesmanship/BS, however there can be a lot of shenanigans going-on with local municipalities, e.i. "emergency" projects, etc... There's a lot of loop-holes & substantial opportunity for the shrewd types.

Unless your doing small, (prolly anything under $100K these days?), it's generally fair, as all bidders must provide a bid bond, then payment & performance bonds if awarded, gov't must award to lowest responsible bidder - It's also very competitive as most bidders are very proficient at their jobs. 

Nothing's perfect though - You get unscrupulous types there too.....not paying prevailing wages, skipping on safety, etc, etc,.....Contractors get buddy-buddy with local contracting officer or subordinates and there's a lot of tongue-in cheek - look the other way stuff goes on.....Been there, done that years ago.

Gave it up many years ago - Pretty disheartening when your bid is $1.1M, gov't estimate is $1.1.1M, 15 bidders top 13 all withing 2-5% & some clown gets it for $850K.....Then later it's discovered, (among other things), he gets popped for not paying prevailing wages, only to start paying PW's, then having his employees go out, cash their paychecks and giving him back the difference in cash....Crap goes on all the time.

Get's crazy with the "set-asides" as well - Minority or women owned get preference.....Ya know, I worked as a subcontractor for a guy on projects in Wy, CO, & CA that where specific set-asides for Vietnam veteran owned businesses. That's all he bid....It's a whole different world.


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

NYCB-
Whoops....Didn't realize you where a trade/sub...Yes, by all means, as a sub on gov't projects is a great situation. You're pretty-much guaranteed to be paid, as the projects must be bonded; Both payment & performance - Your employees like it because it's "prevailing wages" - Everybody makes $!

Although I will comment that I had the unfortunate instance to have to go after a GC for a roof we did on a Naval base project years ago - Come to find out the "bond" the contracting office had was a fake. I was in disbelief that no one would verify a bond! Just put r' in the file & call it good, (I guess). Needles to say I was SOL on that one.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

Most people that come here from out of state don't make it. To overwhelming. 

I've been here 52 years, so I've evolved with the regulations. Don't take that as a regulation endorsement. It couldn't be father from the truth. 


Mike.
_______________


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## Jonbuild (Nov 18, 2013)

Jaws said:


> My subs arent making a lot more than residential but it's faster, and I pay every Friday. it's my risk not there's, they are working for me not the client or their deal.would be with them. I also carry a little contingency for every sub if there is an issue I just pay and keep.it moving. Some of my private commercial work that's why i get their continue business, schedule and not.hounding about money. The plant I put in Pics thread often i do 30k jobs all the time last minute, no contract paid in full at the end a week later.
> 
> 
> 
> Get bigger commercial yeah you'll be signing a pay when paid. Risky.







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## Deckhead (Dec 9, 2010)

Florida and California have the strictest building codes in the country. Miami-Dade is the most strict and is the standard bearer for anything that wants "approval" for wind mitigation.

You know what the stringent licensing and regulation has done in this state? Guaranteed most actual builders wont become GC's because they dont know how/wont push paper. 

The vast majority of builders here are hacks who have never picked up a hammer and know the ways to grease the palms of local and state officials. And they build the ****tiest houses in the country.

So go ahead and tell me how it makes construction better having licensing but excuse me while I laugh my ass off. As with most laws, all your doing is opening it up for lawyers to run it... No thanks. It used to be construction guys had thicker skins then asking daddy government to come solve their problems.

Licensing does one thing like most regulation, makes people feel good while achieving nothing but negative unintended consequences.


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## Fishindude (Aug 15, 2017)

Only folks that have to be licensed here are plumbers and electricians. Nothing required for GC's, however some municipalities require GC's are licensed / registered before you can get a permit and work within the city limits, etc.

All of that contractor licensing stuff is just another tax that gets passed on to the clients and doesn't do much to stop the hacks from still doing their thing. Just creates another level of government bureaucracy and gives some elected officials buddy or brother in law a job.


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## NJ Contractor (Nov 12, 2016)

Anything the government implements and oversees turns into a disaster.


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## Joasis (Mar 28, 2006)

When I grow up, I wanna be a GC!

I have been getting a ton of calls lately...Porch.com, Home Advisor, and all the rest...Angie's List, and so on....and the call rep gets really confused when I tell them commercial GC....and the persistent ones still want to know if I do bathroom remodels and window installation......lol.


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## Calidecks (Nov 19, 2011)

OG1 said:


> Just pulled a permit in Dallas, all contractors on this list must be licensed. All of those with an asterisk must have a state license.
> 
> Backflow Contractor*
> 
> ...




My company can legally do all those trades and also pull the permits with the exception of fire sprinklers and alarms. 

I like that better than being forced to hire a plumber or electrician. Especially in my line of work. Makes it nice to run my own electric to my decks or plumb water to it. 

Cost to license 175.00 a year. 


Mike.
_______________


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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

Deckhead - 
Florida definitely sounds like a system gone awry, as is with most gov't involvement - Similar to the notion gov't work is a fair playing-ground, which couldn't be further from the truth.....It's all corrupt - Just have to find your niche/way through the mess. 

I can only speak with conviction my own experiences, to which have taught me there is definitely need for logical/efficient regulation when it comes to construction contracting, however, I will concede, while most may be well intended, the crooks are right there with ways to subvert & sometimes makes things worse.

State licensing should have nothing to do with codes - It should be focused on consumer protection & contractor responsibility - Leave the code enforcement to the local municipality(s) building officials.

CA & UT state licensing are very similar, as I "assume" are OR, WA, ID, NV, AZ, NM - Florida apparently is a wild card as it has assumed some code enforcement(?).

I can comment because I live it - CA & UT general "quality" of both contractors & work performed far out-shadows the "general" qualities in CO. Sure there's good & bad everywhere, but there is a distinct deference - I find myself competing with "generally" like-minded and able competitors in CA & Ut, while in CO it's a constant fight to untangle miss-information and shysters at every corner, primarily because the lack of state licensing allows it. It's actually a sigh of relief when you can compete with a "real" contractor.

Joasis-
Angies List, (owned by HomeAdvisor BTW), etc... are complete shams to the public and proliferate in states that lack state licensing, because consumers are searching for responsible businesses & they are duped into believing that because an outfit pays an agency for "leads" that they are somehow trustworthy.....BBB's, trade associations, are similar; You pay the fees & you're a member.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Calidecks said:


> My company can legally do all those trades and also pull the permits with the exception of fire sprinklers and alarms.
> 
> I like that better than being forced to hire a plumber or electrician. Especially in my line of work. Makes it nice to run my own electric to my decks or plumb water to it.
> 
> ...


I think it is all dependent on how you were brought up in the trades. You guys must of had to show work hours for your licence in those trades (or GC). Different world. 

Most builders who come from the trades (maybe 35% now would be my guess) came up like I did or even more specialized. I came up old school, trained by old school builders and have done every aspect of carpentry including forming and pouring concrete, roofing etc... and have some quite a bit of welding. Not really a cabinet/shop guy at all but have some some. I understand what is needed there. 

Most GCs from the trades were specialized in one of those

I have zero time working with MEPS, or basically zero. When I was starting out as a contractor I'd often help the MEP subs on our small jobs, and I've always tried to be up on code changes to MEPs. I am not competent in those trades 

I would not want almost any GC I've ever met wiring a whole house. My dad might be the only exception just because he was heavily into electronics in the Air Force and has done a lot of electrical work when he was younger. He wired his house and my brothers old house and does his own on rentals he owns a lot of the time. For a client it's illegal. 

Plumbing I think is a bit ridiculous that we have to hire a plumber to add 1 valve, and most guys do not is a county. Like I said we plumbed all our own houses, office building and will do our duplexes etc.. with our pex tools and passed code inspections first round. They are by far the most expensive sub too 

But it is really not that big a deal, the customers the one paying for it and as long as it is schedule they show up and move quickly. 

I'm doing a job we almost always pass on - but for an existing client: laundry Room remodel (turning a laundry Room, closet and bathroom into a smaller bathroom and a bigger utility Room and a tiny closet), small $77,000 job, MEPs were done in 1 day. Site super scheduled two weeks before we started demo. They were pouring concrete insulating and taking delivery of rock day 4 or 5 of the job 

Decks we run the conduit when we are building the frame and install pull strings since they all have step lights or post lights or something. I can see where that would be a big time saver if you could do it all yourself on that. For a whole house I'd say it's probably more efficient to pay a sub unless you have that kind of time 



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## OG1 (Dec 23, 2019)

The licenses for Plumbing, Electrical, and HVAC are a given and for very good reason. 

For Plumbers, as everyone should know, there is a major health risk involved in getting it wrong. Sewer gas and natural gas kill people as does contaminated drinking water and food. They should go through an apprentice program and be able to pass a test on knowledge and best practices. It only takes the death of one person to incubate the push for more stringent licensing.

For electrical, same thing. There is a national code which must be followed for the safety of the consumer as well as the electricians themselves. Color coding of wiring, is and should be, the same across the country so that everyone who works in or on electrical, knows which wire is hot no matter the job they are on. Proper bonding and grounding saves lives. After someone dies is not the time to realize you had something wrong. Electricians too need to go through an apprentice program and be tested before licensing.

HVAC carries with it, it's own hazards to public health and safety. Carbon monoxide gasses kill people everyday because of improper ventilation. The risk legionnaire's disease, dangers from freon and ammonia gasses, and fire distribution throughout a building are all things that can be avoided with proper training and testing for competence.

What about the lowly carpenter? Usually what he builds is regulated by the design industry. Architects and engineers, design and inspect their buildings and both are licensed, tested, and go through apprentice programs.

Where does the GC come in? He is the guy who coordinates the job, oversees the various trades and pays the bills. His occupation carries fewer risks to public health but he must carry the knowledge to identify and remedy risk created by others. Are they always needed? No. But in many cases they are. I seriously doubt that any hospital in this country would ever get built, if it were not for the General Contractor and that goes for alot of other things. 

If it were not for our necessary evil, the insurance industry, most of these licenses would have never came about.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Jonbuild said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is this qouted for a reason?

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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

Ill bet if the remodelers can do their own plumbing in California the plumbers aint getting no 1200 an opening lol

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## tnt specialty (Apr 19, 2007)

Calidecks-

Right on! In Colorado I must rely on subbing to plumbers, electricians & HVAC. It drives up the cost to the client, as well adds construction time to the projects, and at times it's painful to have to pay a less-than-proficient sub to do what you could've done quicker & better with you're in-house staff.

To add to the CO craziness; A homeowner can perform his own Electrical, plumbing or HVAC himself! No experience - no knowledge!

A typical CO shyster contractor antic is to have the homeowner pull the permits & claim the homeowner did the ele/plmbg/HVAC.....Goes on all the time.


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## Jaws (Dec 20, 2010)

tnt specialty said:


> Calidecks-
> 
> Right on! In Colorado I must rely on subbing to plumbers, electricians & HVAC. It drives up the cost to the client, as well adds construction time to the projects, and at times it's painful to have to pay a less-than-proficient sub to do what you could've done quicker & better with you're in-house staff.
> 
> ...


I do not see how it is possible for a government entity to tell a homeowner what they can and cannot do on their own home themselves. Talk about tyranny. Might as well let them come in and tell you why you can have in your cupboards lol

Nanny state

I will say When we were doing smaller remodels it was always frustrating to see homeowners pull a permit and say they were doing it themselves and have some handy man do it. that is pretty common here.

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## Robie (Feb 25, 2005)

> > To add to the CO craziness; A homeowner can perform his own Electrical, plumbing or HVAC himself! No experience - no knowledge!


My Dad was the first Chief of Inspections for Kent County DE in 1974.

He had some wild stories about homeowners and construction. One chap was using the $1.00 variety extension cords plugged together inside the walls for his wiring.
Luckily it was seen by an inspector before the drywall went up and he had to take it all out.


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## EricBrancard (Jun 8, 2012)

tnt specialty said:


> Deckhead -
> Florida definitely sounds like a system gone awry, as is with most gov't involvement - Similar to the notion gov't work is a fair playing-ground, which couldn't be further from the truth.....It's all corrupt - Just have to find your niche/way through the mess.
> 
> I can only speak with conviction my own experiences, to which have taught me there is definitely need for logical/efficient regulation when it comes to construction contracting, however, I will concede, while most may be well intended, the crooks are right there with ways to subvert & sometimes makes things worse.
> ...


When I think of the paragon of the construction industry, AZ, NM and NV are the first states that come to mind


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## Jonbuild (Nov 18, 2013)

Jaws said:


> Is this qouted for a reason?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk




Nope... sorry must have pocket quoted, pulled my phone out of my pocket, and I was about to send another 

Carry on! Great info!!


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