# VCT tile overlay



## picker45 (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm Bob and new to this site, but been reading the posts and noticed this is a very informative site. I'm in remodeling and have an oppurtunity to do quite a few stores with VCT. I've laid new floors but am worried about overlay, as they say no big deal.
I know you've got to strip the floors of wax and dirt but what about the patching of the existing and the un eveness of the exiting floors? I walked two stores and their gapped and quite a bit of rough concrete that's showing through the existing tile. There's concrete ridges and quite a few dips which is causing the existing to separate and gap.
What patch would you use? What pads would you use on stripping the wax? I know the least amount of glue is best, so use the smallest notch trowel? I really need the work as things are slow and he's offering me 20 stores, it just scares me doing this for the first time in overlay.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks BH


----------



## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

I've done a lot of retail and restaurants with VCT. We always tear off all the old VCT, and prep to an impeccably smooth surface with Ardex.

With the questions you are asking, I gotta wonder if you are in over your head, if the GC is a moron for bring on a floor guy with no commercial experience, or both


----------



## picker45 (Jan 27, 2010)

With the economy as bad as it is, I'm going to do what I have to, to make a living. Whether or not Im a professional at this is not up for debate.


----------



## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

And you screw up 20 stores, you'll be in the hole for much more than you made


----------



## picker45 (Jan 27, 2010)

The only security in life is knowledge! I know the answers to my questions, but I thought I would ask a question and prove my answers to be true, but I see maybe this is the wrong forum. I have plenty of pre madonnas that work for me, I didnt think I'd get the same from this forum.
Respectfuuly BH


----------



## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

I am sorry that no one here will give you step by step directions for becoming a successful professional commercial flooring installer.


----------



## BuildersII (Dec 20, 2009)

Here's what I would do:

1. Remove the old VCT with a rented floor remover (big vibrating razor scraper).

2. Fill gaps and low spots with self-leveling floor stone.)

3. Rent a floor-stone grinder. This will remove any excess glue and smooth down high spots (as well as feather the edges of your floor stone patches)

4. Then lay your VCT. 

It will look much more professional and provide a superior quality product.


----------



## picker45 (Jan 27, 2010)

BuildersII

Thanks, the customer doesn't remove the first layer, they only want to pay for overlay, they've got some stores coming up in two years that will require removing the two layers than they will pay for the removal. If I don't bid it, there going to give it to the illegals as they are the ones with the cheapest price. I've got all the insurances' etc, and told him that I would prefer to remove but he only want's to pay for overlay. 
They have 160 stores and I've looked at the ones they overlayed, not the best job, as they didn't float out the holes real well.
My biggest concern is the gaps in the existing tile, there's alot, as the floor dips really bad and they didn't float it originally and the gaps are in a 20x 15 area. It's just alot of floor patch that they don't want to pay for, but I can't do a crappy job as he stated he's got 20 stores to do this year. I'm sure the illegals can get away with it but I can't, as the old saying goes, "Don't tell me about the labor pains just show me the baby!Thanks again, BH

As to Anti- I guess that's all you are is anti everything.


----------



## Metro M & L (Jun 3, 2009)

"No warranty express or implied on installs without removal."

Choogetwatupay4


----------



## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

Picker45, I think Wingnuts problem is, we've all seen people bid on jobs that they didn't know how to do.


----------



## BKM Resilient (May 2, 2009)

Laying over a solid existing VCT floor is fun and easy for the whole family......

Seriously, unless its asbestos tile you just need to use heavy grit sandpaper on a floor buffer and take the finish down to as much of the bare tile as you can reasonably get to. The Prima donnas can all sit home and talk about how great they are. Commercial installers serve their customers at the quality and detail that the price dictates. It's not always practical to shut down operations for weeks and months for demolition so we've been laying over existing floors for MANY generations with very few problems. 

I'd use Ardex Feather Finish to repair holes and cracks. Where the existing VCT is gapped open at the seams and might possibly telegraph through over time that would have to be very extreme before I'd worry over it. Normally your customer HAS to accept that they are not getting a perfect installation. You don't want to try skimcoating the whole floor just to fill in the gaps at the seams. If it's only a few hundred square feet----flip a coin. In retail stores they're covering most of the footage with racks and gondolas. Some corporations are very picky about the floor. Most aren't. if you do decent work your liability will be limited to replacing a few bad areas. This ain't someone's home so you best forget that whole mentality of doing every job as if it were you Mom's kitchen. That probably worked 50-75 years ago. Not in my lifetime. 

1/32"x 1/32"x1/32" notches

Go make the money!


----------



## picker45 (Jan 27, 2010)

BKM Thanks for the assurance!

I talked to the Armstrong rep and he said not to sand it just to strip it per their floor expert website. I talked to my stripper guy and he said he would just strip the wax, I think you need to sand for leveling as well as could contact on the adhesive. What grit would you use?
Thanks again for your professionalism.
Bob H


----------



## BKM Resilient (May 2, 2009)

picker45 said:


> BKM Thanks for the assurance!
> 
> I talked to the Armstrong rep and he said not to sand it just to strip it per their floor expert website. I talked to my stripper guy and he said he would just strip the wax, I think you need to sand for leveling as well as could contact on the adhesive. What grit would you use?
> Thanks again for your professionalism.
> Bob H


***********************
In any case you're going to want to sand the floor with the heaviest grit paper you can find. I forget if the heaviest is 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 grit. That's the ideal. 12 or 16 grit will work as well if that's all you can find. Part of deciding what grit paper to use depends on how heavy and fast your floor machines are. 

Chemical stripping is only REALLY necessary when there's tons of old wax and soap scum from under the store fixtures or just plain too much existing wax. In that case your sanding discs will gum up and be ruined almost instantly. Find a happy medium between soaking and stripping, which isn't good for the next day install and the more aggressive mechanical cleaning. So the Armstrong guy isn't giving you bad advice. It's just their best recommended procedure. I'll guess they don't want you sanding the old floor for environmental and health reasons. That's not what you're asking me about. I'm telling you the way we actually do this in the real world. I don't particularly care what works on a laboratory table top in Lancaster Pennsylvania.

(if it's asbestos tiles of course you have to forget about sanding)


----------



## FStephenMasek (Jan 22, 2010)

BKM Resilient said:


> Seriously, unless its asbestos tile ..


That is indeed the big question! They may be looking for a sucker to disturb asbestos. However, you should ask for the report once you have the job, if they do not provide it sooner. Then have it tested, then get a nice change order and hire an abatement subcontractor if it is asbestos.

By the way, if it is asbestos, OSHA has limits on the buffer pads and buffer speed which can be used. You don't want to be liable for exposing people to asbestos.

If you did not know, asbestos was used in vinyl tile of all sizes, not just 9" x 9". Conversely, some 9" x 9" tile do not contain asbestos, especially the premium solid vinyl ones.
________
Park beach condo pattaya


----------



## rusty baker (Jun 14, 2008)

And contrary to what you read on the internet, asbestos tile was available into the early 1990's


----------



## FStephenMasek (Jan 22, 2010)

rusty baker said:


> And contrary to what you read on the internet, asbestos tile was available into the early 1990's


 Trivia, but vinyl asbestos floor tile is still legal! 

True story here locally - an abatement contractor removed the VAT from a large building. The building engineer was proud that he found a very cheap source for the replacement tile. You guessed it - he bought a load of old VAT from somebody. The abatement guy was again called, and again removed the tile.
________
HEAD SHOP


----------



## KG007 (Oct 23, 2009)

*Both sides are good advice*

Picker:

You may not like Anti-Wingnut's advice here, but he's right. You probably are getting in over your head. If you are DETERMINED to do this then you need to CYA.

Make sure in WRITING that:
1. NO GUARANTEE of any kind. 
2. You have recommended removal and client is directing the methods and techniques used.
3. Recommend you get a substantial deposit up front.

Even with this they may come back on you before you are even finished, if it starts to fail, or never pay the rest of your money.

You DO recognize the GC is taking advantage of you, right? And not to be busting on you in particular, but letting it happen ruins the industry for everyone. If so many people weren't willing to cut their price to nothing and do substandard work then peple like your GC would have to face facts that it what costs is what it costs. And you would wind up getting paid more when you book a job.

If you lose the job and he uses illegals, I'd suggest dropping a dime on his ass. It's illegal. I'd also call the state and suggest he's hiring crews with no W/C or insurance, maybe drop a note to the owner - the GC probably has a contract saying he has to hire people who are legal and have insurance. And I might call a Congressman, especially if this is a project funded by public money.

Since you are going to do it anyway, the other guys have given you good advice on the technical side, but if it blows up on you recognize YOU are on the hook if the owner raises hell, because stuff rolls down hill and the GC will dump it on you. Sounds like he's a s***bird anyway and those guys have a way of trying to screw everybody, especially subs. Don't count on getting future work - they tell that to everyone and if soneone else is 2 cents cheaper you are out on the next one.


----------



## FStephenMasek (Jan 22, 2010)

The record for lay-over I have personally seen is eight or 9 layers in the Pantry restaurant at 9th and Figueroa in Los Angeles. I had heard about it from somebody else a few years before I saw it. 

Seeing two or three layers of vinyl floor tile is not unusual. Of course,w e also see sandwiches - old wood flooring, vinyl tile, plywood, one or two mroe layers of vinyl tile, and sometimes another layer of plywood and more vinyl tile. I've got an example I show people during two hour asbestos awareness classes which is 3" top to bottom.
________
Art On The Hill


----------



## BKM Resilient (May 2, 2009)

FStephenMasek said:


> The record for lay-over I haev personally seen is eight or 9 layers in the Pantry restaurant at 9th and Figueroa in Los Angeles. I had heard about it from somebody else a few years before I saw it.
> 
> Seeing two or three layers of vinyl floor tile is not unusual. Of course,w e also see sandwiches - old wood flooring, vinyl tile, plywood, one or two mroe layers of vinyl tile, and sometimes another layer of plywood and more vinyl tile. I've got an example I show people during two hour asbestos awareness classes which is 3" top to bottom.


***************************
The Pantry is one hell of a place to eat! You won't walk out of there hungry.


----------



## BKM Resilient (May 2, 2009)

grahaminteriors said:


> Picker:
> 
> You may not like Anti-Wingnut's advice here, but he's right. You probably are getting in over your head. If you are DETERMINED to do this then you need to CYA.
> 
> ...


************************
I would be VERY concerned if I were furnishing materials. When I was contracting these kinds of job I made them furnish EVERYTHING. Call me when the store is empty and the tile, glue and patch is on site. So I agree 100% that it has to be part of the CONTRACT that you're laying over their problems and can't be expected to make these old stores look like new stores. For labor only work I don't need any money up front.


----------



## msv (Aug 5, 2009)

1.written acknowledgement from customer that result will not be perfect
2. DOWN PAYMENT DOWN PAYMENT DOWN PAYMENT!!!!!!

or maybe #2 should be #1... I bet i can find a handful of ppl on this thread that hate working for free.....


----------



## Anti-wingnut (Mar 12, 2009)

grahaminteriors said:


> Picker:
> 
> You may not like Anti-Wingnut's advice here, but he's right


Damn straight :thumbsup:


----------



## ROCKY63 (Jul 29, 2010)

msv said:


> 1.written acknowledgement from customer that result will not be perfect
> 2. DOWN PAYMENT DOWN PAYMENT DOWN PAYMENT!!!!!!
> 
> or maybe #2 should be #1... I bet i can find a handful of ppl on this thread that hate working for free.....


 
When you have all he work you can handle and you don't care if your guys sit home or not it's very easy to say to do this and demand that. You think you can do the job and make money then you take it. If the floor isn't a complete mess you assume it's all something you don't want to touch. You clearly write out your proposal saying you are going on top of the existing floor and you will fill any holes and cracks to make new installation as good as the current conditions allow. You're not responsible for any imperfections in your work due to the existing conditions and you are following their existing heights and not responsible for fixing any conditions such as leveling. On you proposal be as clear as you can be and write your license number and that you are insured and bonded if so and request under the price and everyone is right but this works even better, type 1/3 deposit 1/3 when work starts in field and 1/3 upon completion. Once you get your 1/3 and don't ask until they are into the job or when you feel the time is right, then you call the day before you start and say have a check on the job for the agreed upon amount and you will hear your share of verbiage but it's clear and they never catch it and you say next time we'll do it another way but this is the way you signed and I need it. Get your second check now you are way better than 1/2 down and just go in there and fill and strip as best you can and go on top and work fast and get the other jobs as well. When you do a great job and he brings up your terms assuming he pays you well then you can play by his rules if you can live with them or you make something you can both live with, a percentage down and weekly payments whatever.
Good luck


----------



## Lone Wolf (Feb 14, 2010)

Hopefully He's got er done! Post was from Jan.

Greg


----------

