# Capillary water movement (curbless shower)



## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

So I've gotten 2 call backs in the last month on water leak issues on curbless showers

It has me a little concerned since I've been pretty much doing nothing but curbless entries 

This latest one I just finished about a month ago

Used the wedi lingno curbless pan

Ditra on main floor (all seams and corners to drywall taped)
Transition to shower pan I used the wedi band (pretty much same as Kerdi)

I flood tested shower before main floor tile was down
Created a dam by using a 2" piece of wedi and caulked to top edge of shower and filled up 1 1/2"
All tested fine and completely drained (24 hours)

So the issue now is 
Turn on shower, with in minutes you can go to basement and see water dripping all the way at front door entry area of bath!
I know the location because I installed new 3/4" plywood throughout main floor

How can water be traveling to the complete other side of bathroom??
Within one months time too??

Also, I talked to a wedi rep 
And he said to install a metal edging at shower floor transition (sealing down with the wedi caulk)

Will be flood testing tomorrow after doing
Hope that will work

Just wanted to hear what you guys think and if anyone else has had a similar issue


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I seal the entire room when I do a barrier free shower.

Tom


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

tjbnwi said:


> I seal the entire room when I do a barrier free shower.
> 
> 
> 
> Tom



That's my confusion
I do too. 
The water was leaking at main entry door


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## superseal (Feb 4, 2009)

I can't imagine it being capillary action if it happens that fast. 

Absolutely rule out supply and DWV?... Probably did i'm sure, looks like some quality work your doing.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Does the plumbing drain in that direction? could it be a drain line not glued? Or supply line leak?


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

pour a bucket or two directly into the drain to test. Cap shower head pipe and turn on to check the riser pipe and valve. Was the outside of the seat sealed between the Wedi and drywall?


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## Wain Scotting (Oct 25, 2015)

I agree with the posts above. Trouble shoot the plumbing first. I had a similar issue years ago when I tried out a new plumber. He "said" he pressure tested the shower control, head, etc. 
First time the client used it, it leaked big time. Turns out there was a pin hole leak just above the control that only sprayed when the water went to the head. Now I double check everyone's work. 

Good luck.


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

olzo55 said:


> pour a bucket or two directly into the drain to test. Cap shower head pipe and turn on to check the riser pipe and valve. Was the outside of the seat sealed between the Wedi and drywall?



The bench to drywall is an area I probably should have sealed....

But the reason I'm 99 percent sure it's the pan or seepage through thinset is because before I started tearing up tile I filled shower pan again and it started leaking and didn't stop till I pulled plug

All of the drain lines are visible in exposed basement ceiling

a pinhole leak in pex has a slight possibility....

Will hopefully find out the problem in a couple hours when I flood test again

Thanks for replies.....pretty stressful having these issues (never had a single one with a curbed shower!)


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## jengebretson (Aug 16, 2012)

In the third picture, I don't see the kerdi/wedi band go up the wall where the floor tile meets the wall to waterproof the ditra/wall connection, is it painted over? Also, on the hinge side of the door, what did you do at the drywall to wedi to floor connection for waterproofing? 

Looking at the pictures, that might be the area of most concern to me, or a leaking water line. 

When you fill the pan, how long until there is water dripping below?


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

I use Wedi but haven't used their pan system yet. That glue is great stuff. The drain connection is only fitted together and seals with a gasket, right? Is it Wedi glued as well? One thing is the pan is recessed to accept the drain so it's a bit thinner at that spot. Could the drain have been stepped on and moved down perhaps cracking the foam or breaking the seal? Is the pipe supported to prvent movement?

All I have are questions.....but no answers. lol.


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

jengebretson said:


> In the third picture, I don't see the kerdi/wedi band go up the wall where the floor tile meets the wall to waterproof the ditra/wall connection, is it painted over? Also, on the hinge side of the door, what did you do at the drywall to wedi to floor connection for waterproofing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Think you have something there about the flashing from wall to ditra....
For some reason I did forget to do that. But that isn't where the leak is 
It's 5 feet away at door

The leak happens fairly quickly after shower is turned on (2-3 minutes)


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## jengebretson (Aug 16, 2012)

srwcontracting said:


> Think you have something there about the flashing from wall to ditra....
> For some reason I did forget to do that. But that isn't where the leak is
> It's 5 feet away at door
> 
> The leak happens fairly quickly after shower is turned on (2-3 minutes)




If you left room for expansion with floor tile around perimeter wall, that would be a nice channel for water to build up/flow over time. 



I am guessing it took a while to leak? If so, the water might possibly be building up/not drying at that location. Now, whenever the they shower, it doesn't take much time for it to leak. Just want to explore ideas to help you resolve the issue. 



I like the idea of a dam created with the metal the wedi rep suggested. 

What grout was used?


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

olzo55 said:


> I use Wedi but haven't used their pan system yet. That glue is great stuff. The drain connection is only fitted together and seals with a gasket, right? Is it Wedi glued as well? One thing is the pan is recessed to accept the drain so it's a bit thinner at that spot. Could the drain have been stepped on and moved down perhaps cracking the foam or breaking the seal? Is the pipe supported to prvent movement?
> 
> 
> 
> All I have are questions.....but no answers. lol.



I have it under flood test as of now
No bad signs as of now
I'm really thinking the thinset just sucks moisture uphill and out of shower.
the outside floor does slightly slope towards main entry door where leak is present. So I'm thinking once a water path is created it's like a siphon action from shower 

this sloping outside shower exists in my other curbless shower issue (which I did 3 years ago!)
Only difference is water is just pooling under tile with nowhere to go

If this test passes.....I will always install a capillary break from now on!

Also
As far as drain goes, you can see its entirety underneath. Definitely no issues there


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

jengebretson said:


> If you left room for expansion with floor tile around perimeter wall, that would be a nice channel for water to build up/flow over time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Used quartzlock


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

srwcontracting said:


> I have it under flood test as of now
> No bad signs as of now
> I'm really thinking the thinset just sucks moisture uphill and out of shower.
> the outside floor does slightly slope towards main entry door where leak is present. So I'm thinking once a water path is created it's like a siphon action from shower
> ...


A contractor I know put a curb less shower in his small bathroom, similar size to that one. They waterproofed the whole enchilada but it leaks slightly in the basement right where the door it.

His conclusion was that the room was just too small for a curbless shower to properly keep the water contained. The solution was to tear it up and put in a curb.


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## CO762 (Feb 22, 2010)

Interesting thread. Good thing ya caught it.


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## Anderson (Sep 7, 2009)

Is the bench pitched. Could water possibly getting under granite seat and getting to the other side of the glass??


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> A contractor I know put a curb less shower in his small bathroom, similar size to that one. They waterproofed the whole enchilada but it leaks slightly in the basement right where the door it.
> 
> 
> 
> His conclusion was that the room was just too small for a curbless shower to properly keep the water contained. The solution was to tear it up and put in a curb.



That's not something I wanted to hear....
This is the smallest bathroom and shower that I've done this with

The 31" width really makes it tough to make sure the glass enclosure keeps water in! 
Will probably stay curbed in the future on something like this!


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

Anderson said:


> Is the bench pitched. Could water possibly getting under granite seat and getting to the other side of the glass??



Oh ya, definitely pitched bench and drains fine
I actually cut plywood under bench out to check for that.....figured with the amount of water running off bench that maybe I notched for glass too far or missed something


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

srwcontracting said:


> That's not something I wanted to hear....
> This is the smallest bathroom and shower that I've done this with
> 
> The 31" width really makes it tough to make sure the glass enclosure keeps water in!
> Will probably stay curbed in the future on something like this!


I never actually saw it in action, but the guy who did it was a GC I work for regularly and this was on his personal house. He was pretty upset about it. His assumption was that the room was just too darn small to keep the water contained. I'll drop him a line next week.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I prefer lineal drains, the shower is 48x32. 

Tom


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

Here's what I think was going on with his, slight slope towards door, some water went under the tiles, some above.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

So what have you figured out on this problem?


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

Flood test checked out
I reset tile yesterday and 
Going to reinstall the glass and grout today

Pretty sure the issue was the thinset sucking water throughout bath floor

crazy!


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Hope you solved it, but you know that's a short interval to see water below. I'd be checking all connections past the mixing valve, as well as the drain. How's the handheld bar attached? Maybe the nipple is leaking and it's in the cavity, something like that.


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## Stunt Carpenter (Dec 31, 2011)

Does the bathroom have a hot air vent on the floor. We had a rental that the shower leaked every time they used it turns out they got water all over the floor and it was draining through the floor register 


builddaley.com


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

srwcontracting said:


> Flood test checked out
> I reset tile yesterday and
> Going to reinstall the glass and grout today
> 
> ...


You think the floor's thinset is so saturated that anytime the water is on, it forces additional water through the grout and into the thinset which causes a leak several feet away from the shower. If you are correct about the capillary action, that opens up a whole new view of surface membranes or those covered with a less permeable grout. 

I'm curious, did WEDI reps come up with the metal trim separating the shower floor from the main floor? Or did they just listen to your thoughts about the capillary action and suggest this method? It would bother me to know that it is a known problem to the manufacturer that no one talks about.

Please update this.


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

olzo55 said:


> You think the floor's thinset is so saturated that anytime the water is on, it forces additional water through the grout and into the thinset which causes a leak several feet away from the shower. If you are correct about the capillary action, that opens up a whole new view of surface membranes or those covered with a less permeable grout.
> 
> I'm curious, did WEDI reps come up with the metal trim separating the shower floor from the main floor? Or did they just listen to your thoughts about the capillary action and suggest this method? It would bother me to know that it is a known problem to the manufacturer that no one talks about.
> 
> Please update this.


I have a hard time believing it's capillary action, but if the floor slops toward the door I can see the water running under the tile.


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

olzo55 said:


> You think the floor's thinset is so saturated that anytime the water is on, it forces additional water through the grout and into the thinset which causes a leak several feet away from the shower. If you are correct about the capillary action, that opens up a whole new view of surface membranes or those covered with a less permeable grout.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think it is something most are not talking about! 

Schluter was the one to originally suggest. They mentioned that it is important to have a 2" overlap of the Kerdi band on any seams and especially the shower pan seam. They mentioned wicking of moisture into seam up to 2" through capillary water movement. And that a schluter transition sealed at entry would eliminate that issue to ditra 

I mentioned the metal transition to wedi rep and he agreed
He emphasized or expressed how impressive thinset can absorb water 

I finished shower yesterday
I'm really hoping in a way that there is a different reason for leaking. 

My other shower, which I will post pics to this thread is absolutely with out a doubt capillary water movement
It's been 3 years since installed 

I pulled about 15 plank tile outside of shower and found water saturation 
Reason for pulling of tile was because water was coming through a grout joint in middle of floor


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

srwcontracting said:


> I think it is something most are not talking about!
> 
> Schluter was the one to originally suggest. They mentioned that it is important to have a 2" overlap of the Kerdi band on any seams and especially the shower pan seam. They mentioned wicking of moisture into seam up to 2" through capillary water movement. And that a schluter transition sealed at entry would eliminate that issue to ditra
> 
> ...


I doubt it's capillary action, that would cause it to get wet but not to pour water. I'm thinking the thinset is becoming saturated, the ditra is impenetrable and fills up with water. Then when you turn on the shower it causes the soaked thinset on the ditra to "overflow" and dump out at the edge by the door.

Your other shower that had water coming through the grout in the middle of the floor probably had a low spot in the floor.


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

Inner10 said:


> I doubt it's capillary action, that would cause it to get wet but not to pour water. I'm thinking the thinset is becoming saturated, the ditra is impenetrable and fills up with water. Then when you turn on the shower it causes the soaked thinset on the ditra to "overflow" and dump out at the edge by the door.
> 
> 
> 
> Your other shower that had water coming through the grout in the middle of the floor probably had a low spot in the floor.



The other shower did have a low spot outside shower (about a foot out or so)

Maybe capillary water movement is the wrong word......

All I can say is that I flood test for a tile setters 24 hours and drain. 
Thought If it drained and no loss of water was present before doing so
That I was safe and good to go

I will definitely pay attention to any low lying areas outside of shower (or even better slightly slope membrane to shower)
And use a schluter transition on curbless showers


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Use a Schluter expansion strip at the shower, with the rubber reaction area it should work like a gasket. 

Tom


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## Inner10 (Mar 12, 2009)

srwcontracting said:


> The other shower did have a low spot outside shower (about a foot out or so)
> 
> Maybe capillary water movement is the wrong word......
> 
> ...


But you built your damn inside the pan you didn't have water splashing on the seam or outside it.


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## MarkJames (Nov 25, 2012)

Unless you already solved it, also consider water running along (in) a grout joint by gravity, sort of like a french drain, over to the door. Anything look wet outside the shower door?

I had posted a couple weeks ago about a tiled tub alcove I was having problems with. It was a jacuzzi-type tub and I suspected it did not have a tile flange. This is not the perfect or "by the book" solution, but I removed the caulk, soaked the grout joints with 511 penetrating sealer, allow to dry, recaulk. After a week of use it's holding tight, so I need to get back over there and patch the ceiling below. (It's my buddy's hallway bathroom, so I'm sure I'll hear back if it ever fails.)


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Here's what still has me wondering.You used a very low perm grout. So how did the water get in there in the first place? Where the floor and wall meet seems like the most likely spot to me. That place would have enough space ( if not grouted) to allow the water to fill the perimeter of the shower and build up enough water to flow quickly. Do you caulk that intersection?

Also, did you eliminate the valve or shower head pipe?


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

olzo55 said:


> Here's what still has me wondering.You used a very low perm grout. So how did the water get in there in the first place? Where the floor and wall meet seems like the most likely spot to me. That place would have enough space ( if not grouted) to allow the water to fill the perimeter of the shower and build up enough water to flow quickly. Do you caulk that intersection?
> 
> 
> 
> Also, did you eliminate the valve or shower head pipe?



I did not fully eliminate shower head and valve from equation
I really figured I'd see water underneath where my pex lines go up 
to valve (plus I always cap and have water on to the ports during project) 

I always lap my wall tile over floor tile, but do not caulk. Really not much there to take water in....

The reason for not tearing into wall behind valve and checking is because when I flood tested before tearing out tile it was leaking until I drained water

The area that thinset can be wicked is at the drain

So I don't know.....


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## trussme (Jan 18, 2013)

tjbnwi said:


> I prefer lineal drains, the shower is 48x32.
> 
> Tom


Do you have any pitch to that drain?
Is that white grout?
At the end of the linear drain, looks like a small void at the very end right next to the wall. I only bring this up because I'm doing one.

Looks nice!


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

SRW, 
I'm not using the WEDI pan or drain. How can water get to the thinset at the drain? Shouldn't your grout protect this spot?

I mentioned the floor/wall joint because unless the floor gets grouted to the wall first then the wall tile installed over it, there is still space behind the wall tile that wouldn't get grout. Water washing down the wall or spray directed at the floor/wall can "build up" a bit against that intersection.

You have one of the most interesting problems I've ever heard of. Lucky you.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

As a side note, I use the Kerdi fix sealant when I seam. I feel it holds better and is a flexible connection.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

trussme said:


> Do you have any pitch to that drain?
> Is that white grout?
> At the end of the linear drain, looks like a small void at the very end right next to the wall. I only bring this up because I'm doing one.
> 
> Looks nice!


The pitch is 1/4" per foot towards the drain. 

Grout is a very light tan (Sandstone?).

I relieved the wall edge to allow any water running along the wall to enter the drain. Without the relief water would have run across the top of the drain cover into the room.

I pitched the tiles on the room side of the drain 1/8", did it just incase any water got over the drain.

Tom


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

olzo55 said:


> As a side note, I use the Kerdi fix sealant when I seam. I feel it holds better and is a flexible connection.



That is a great idea! Will do that from now on
Hate using siliconinized grout for any joint

I have not gotten any negative feedback from customer on this issue
I'm hoping the issue is fixed
The wedi drain is just set in thinset....so the Thinset layer is exposed at the drain 

On my next capillary problem....I'm hoping this works
Dried out floor for a week with dehumidifier 
Scraped grout joint to membrane and filled with silicone

There was a lot of water under these tiles I pulled up!


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

My new way of tiling curbless entries
Capillary break

Did this on this week


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## Golden view (Feb 16, 2012)

Piping in late in the game, but this thread is important to me since I just started doing more curbless showers, often in old homes with non-ideal slopes. I would definitely think water can run under tiles, maybe not through capillary action but just flowing. Even almost perfect thinset coverage can probably have enough voids for water to find a path. I'm also pretty convinced that water will flow through even a perfect urethane grout job.


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## Philament (Dec 9, 2014)

srwcontracting said:


> My new way of tiling curbless entries
> Capillary break
> 
> Did this on this week


What specifically did you do different (hard to tell from the finished photo)?


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## srwcontracting (Dec 11, 2009)

Installed a schluter metal transition sealing down with the wedi caulk
Separates the thinset layer between tile


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

I'd use a Schluter expansion strip. 

Tom


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## Philament (Dec 9, 2014)

tjbnwi said:


> I'd use a Schluter expansion strip.
> 
> Tom


Which profile specifically are you referring to?
like this:
Schluter-DILEX-KSN









Not challenging, but curious for more information as to why you suggest the expansion trip versus a normal trim strip with kerdifix or other such sealant. 

This is a very interesting thread. Thank you to all of the contributors for sharing their insights.


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## trussme (Jan 18, 2013)

Golden view said:


> Even almost perfect thinset coverage can probably have enough voids for water to find a path. I'm also pretty convinced that water will flow through even a perfect urethane grout job.




Do you ever treat the bathroom as a wet room and come out into the bathroom two or three feet, with the same prep you did in the base of the shower?


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## MIKE ANTONETTI (Jul 17, 2012)

I agree, the entire bathroom up to say 4" should be waterproofed, utilizing systems of one company, I believe this has been discussed in other threads, waterproofing a mile from my house still doesn't exist on a new build.


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## tjbnwi (Feb 24, 2009)

Philament said:


> Which profile specifically are you referring to?
> like this:
> Schluter-DILEX-KSN
> 
> ...


The expansion joint allows for movement of the tile in the shower as it is warmed and cooled through normal use. 

Tom


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## Philament (Dec 9, 2014)

tjbnwi said:


> The expansion joint allows for movement of the tile in the shower as it is warmed and cooled through normal use.
> 
> Tom


Makes sense. Thanks


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

Golden view said:


> . I'm also pretty convinced that water will flow through even a perfect urethane grout job.


Any break that allows water behind the tile will be trapped under the tile with the newer grouts. Where can it come out? A traditional mudbed allows the water to flow to the drain.


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## GO Remodeling (Apr 5, 2005)

tjbnwi said:


> The expansion joint allows for movement of the tile in the shower as it is warmed and cooled through normal use.
> 
> Tom


I can't picture how much movement there actually would be. But those Schluter trims would separate the thinsets.


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